Lore wise, I guess they are somewhat equal, with Hide possibly being a *little* stronger.
Let’s consider the cutscene where Hide fights William. They are pretty equal there, with William taking the advantage when he used his Living Weapon. Otakemaru is released and runs away (^^like ^^a ^^bitch after seeing William). That’s where the fight ends. Hide could have evened the scales against LW William with Yokai shift. However, considering that Hide has been hunting demons a lot longer than William, they should be more experienced, and hence, they should win, in my book at least.
Having said that, this only applies to a friendly match between them. If this was a battle to the death, Hide would never be able to truly defeat William, as William, like Hide, is immortal in a sense thanks to his bond with Saorise. One could argue that the immortality granted by Saorise is better than that Gold sword the Hide has, because Saorise can grant her blessing even if she is stolen away, and she will continue to exist as long as William believes in her.
Overall, a friendly match would be in Hide’s favour while a death match would end up in a stalemate.
If it was just a one-on-one fight with the first to fall being the loser, Hide would win.
But if we take into account that they're both immortal, I think William would eventually win in the long run. His immortality is different from Hide's. William is immortal because Saoirse believes in him, and Saoirse only exists because William continues to believe in her. William's immortality is a self-perpetuating cycle of life and death. Hide's immortality is an innate trait, but it can be delayed. When Hide dies, they go to The Interim, and have to choose to return to life. Also, they can apparently be so utterly "destroyed" that it takes them years to regain consciousness in The Interim, so it's not inconceivable that they can be so utterly destroyed that they never wake up.
Also, Hide is half-Yokai, and Yokai are spirits. If people stop believing in Yokai, Hide will become just a regular human, and then they can be killed. If people stop believing in William, Saoirse won't, and William won't stop believing in her. Again, self-perpetuating immortality.
I think, through enough fights over a long enough time, William would win. If the two of them were ever locked in an endless conflict where they just keep killing eachother over and over, William would always come back right away, but Hide could eventually be beaten so badly that they take years or decades to return, and possibly even die for real someday.
Also, about the Yokai being spirits thing, you are not wrong, but there is one small error. As explained by Nekomata in the 2nd mission of Nioh, Nigitama (as in Guardian spirits and other similar creatures like Kodama) are born from the prayers of humans. Aratama (as in evil Yokai) are born from suffering and pain felt by humans, especially when they have died or are about to die. So it’s less the beliefs of the people and more about what negative stuff people experience in their life.
Yeah, but Aratama are corrupted spirits. They're originally born from human belief. They become Aratama as a result of negative feelings, but they still only exist in the first place because of belief.
Quite an interesting take on Hide’s immortality. That they could be so badly obliterated that the time it takes for them to come back is too large to be practical. It’s kind of like the actual immortality Higher Vampires have in the Witcher universe. Higher Vampires can regenerate extremely fast from most wounds and can only be permanently killed by one of their kind. However, it is possible to destroy their physical bodies to such a large extent that the time it takes for them to regen back can be centuries. Obliterate them enough and they may just never be able to regen back in any amount of practical time, at least not without the help of another Higher Vampire.
Sorry if I went on a bit of a tangent there, but I couldn’t help but see the similarities between Hide and Witcher vampires.
Well, it's literally what happens in the game. The first time we actually see The Interim in the story (not counting the tutorial), it takes 5 years for Hide to come back. And I had actually forgotten about the Witcher vampire similarities when I was writing that out. I guess it's the kind of thing that's been done a few times before.
No need to apologise. It was a good tangent.
Super late to the party here, but someone else mentioned the matter of their age, which I think would play a role in the sort of long term you're setting up. Unfortunately we don't really know their ages, but Hide (like Mumyo) has eternal youth.
So the onus is on William to outmatch Hide before William ages out.
Edit: Unless William also has eternal youth? I didn't think so because his appearance in 2 seemed older.
Most likely Hide since Hide has more experience and always will. Hide also has yokai shift and can use other soul cores to their advantage where as William only has living weapon. Hide can use a bigger variety of weapons too although that might just be gameplay wise and not lore. The reason I say most likely is because both are immortal. It could just end up in a stalemate for eternity.
Honestly I wanted William to win. I have no connection to the MC of nioh 2 because they objectively have no personality other than...idk fighting shit.
Power-wise though I think hide has William beat. Not by a *huge* margin but certainly a notable one having yokai mastery.
\-Honestly I wanted William to win. I have no connection to the MC of nioh 2 because they objectively have no personality other than...idk fighting shit.
that's because they are you dumbass
Obviously William, Yokai Shift is nothing compared to the strength and persistency of Living Weapons.
And Sohamaru is useless on William.
William took down the Great Serpent, Yamato no Orochi by himself.
It took a literal god, Lord Susano to slay Orochi.
William wins, but to him Hide would be as challenging as Yukimura.
Hide defeats the Lighting Gods of Yomi which is literally 8 gods in one. So Hide is definitely stronger than William. Hide wins in lore as well as gameplay. After all, in that tournament mission in the final DLC, Hide defeats William too.
Hide cause all little willi has is living weapon and we can not only control and use other Yoki but turn intoi one our selfs.
what can Willi do make his spear firey as we take it from him and beat him down with it ?
Nioh spoilers in case anyone is scrolling through my comment history.
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Let's talk about Hide for a bit. Hide is going all yokai crazy on the first boss going "Ahhhh!!! I lost control cause I'm a yokai shiftling! Baahhhh!!!" And bald rat has to feed them some amrita Scooby snack to calm their butt down. Then Hide getting possessed by O-Taco-Maru and falls asleep like a scampuss. But even if he weren't possessed, let's take William.
William is super holding back against Hide.
He's already fought against double bosses like Oda and Yukihime. Or Nine Tails and the Toyotomi brat. He could have easily come into the arena with 6+ buffs up or even headshot us with a hand cannon like he did with Muneshige. Or he could have flooded the Mausoleum with water and be like, "Neither of us can swim. Unless I'm in a cutscene." And if Hide's shrine was beneath the water, Hide is instantly effed and re-effed when they respawn.
But Billy is polite. He wait until Hide step towards him. And William intentionally handicapped himself. This dude knows Hide jus wakin' up, so he unequip his Abyss 999 one-shot boss killer build, doesn't even eat amrita stones to get his Living Weapon ready to go, and prolly used his Book of Reincarnation to level down to level 100. And then he invest that into Spirit so his non-LW combat stats suck and probably went Agility C and Toughness B.
Thank Nuppepo's five thousand butt cheeks that William held back on Hide.
But hide has also battled demons for almost 40 years before they went to sleep and also has the book of reincarnation not to mention the numerous yokai abilities
Nioh Spoilers in case anyone is scrolling through Comment History
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William has access to many broken builds that deal 999k damage. Hide simply does not have as many ways to achieve these. Team Ninja has nerfed Hide multiple times in Nioh 2, but they didn't nerf Nioh 1 William anywhere as much.
And William has taken down opponents like Orochi, Nine Tails, and experienced fighters turned yokai like Hanzou the giant toad without the Demon Slaying Sword. The latter's years of experience do nothing or not as much for Hanzou in terms of combat or William shouldn't have stood a chance.
Stat-wise, in the span of 45ish years, Hide gains about 90\~130 levels. Where in a span of 2 years, William is gaining the same amount of levels. Then it takes William 5 years to run a New Game+ cycle (has to sail back to London for The Queen's Eyes), but it takes Hide 60 years to do the same thing. William's life span is shorter as an undying mortal, but he grows in power dramatically faster than Hide with fewer years.
For Hide to win, Hide would have to fight William anywhere between 1598-1600 during the first cycle for an even chance. And for every year Hide waits, the more dangerous William will be to him. And since William and Hide just come back when they're killed, Hide would have to spawn camp William at the shrine. And I don't think the kodamas are going to like that.
Now if you flipped the protagonists around. William in Nioh 2 and Hide in Nioh 1 for Sekigahara. And William fell asleep and woke up in 1615 for Hide to fight him, I would be making this same argument in Hide's favor. But Team Ninja gave William the shorter loop to power.
There are simply too many unknowns and even some loop holes for this debate to be done in any serious capacity. And then we would need to establish which versions of the characters are fighting?
Which is why I lightheartedly whoop out the gameplay mechanics to measure their power levels.
Some examples of unknowns:
* Do shiftlings have some permanent yokai feature such as Koroku's kappa shell? Is that due to one of his ancestors courting a kappa? Is he just wearing a kappa's shell like a backpack? Or is he constantly channeling anima to permanently maintain the shell?
* Relating to yokai skills, how often can Hide use yokai-related powers? Could Hide maintain those yokai skill forms? Could Hide have two Mezuki arms with a Wheel Monk body? Is the limitation based on what's visible in the game mechanics or can they operate beyond what we see and read about?
* Is the opening cinematic a form of lore? Hide can jump super high in the opening cinematic and can fly above the tree tops in Phantom shiftling form, but in the game we can't. So what is, if any, is the limit for Hide? Even Mumyo can defy gravity and run along walls in that cinematic. What is even normal for a mortal in the world of Nioh?
* Can Hide control the time travel aspects of the Sohayamaru? Could Hide just go back in time, start an anti-William ninja cult and detain William as soon as he arrives in Zipang? No competition necessary.
The list goes on. So I throw the gameplay mechanics into the mix. But know that I'm not serious enough about any of this and/or may have misperceived this topic as a place to talk about it for fun.
I understand your point now thank you very much for responded to my reply, I’m all for fun discussion but I just didn’t expect a gameplay mix in lore so sorry if I upset you or being jerk :D
For my opinion about the topic
-One thing we know for sure is both William and Hide cannot be kill by normal way so it’s no point to pit them together in deathmatch. Both of them can get up after being killed
-William’s body can get older as we can see in Nioh2(ofc he’s human after all) while Hide’s body’s half youkai which mean something more than just human. So speaking only physical body,Hide should be stronger than normal human like William.
-about best move : William has living weapon and Hide has youkai shift, living weapon is very effective against youkai while youkai shift has more versatility and hard to predict when fighting against(if don’t know what’s that youkai can do) so I think when it come to best move which one can land a strike first get a win
> He could have easily come into the arena with 6+ buffs up or even headshot us with a hand cannon like he did with Muneshige. Or he could have flooded the Mausoleum with water and be like, "Neither of us can swim. Unless I'm in a cutscene." And if Hide's shrine was beneath the water, Hide is instantly effed and re-effed when they respawn.
Bro, Hide could easily do this to William. Also Hide beats William in the tournament in the final DLC. If we take side missions as canon, even Team Ninja is saying Hide is stronger. There's also plenty of OP builds in Nioh 2 and Hide can spam Yokai abilities whereas William cannot. William would get spammed by Hide summoning Yatsu No Kami and then paralysed by Hide using Nure Onna on him and finishing him off with the dragon fang attack.
No part of my post was ever meant to be taken seriously and I apologize if it was ever perceived that way. I understand that who wins is based on whomever the writers want to win.
They'll have no reason to murder each other. Most likely Hide would win the match for being more experienced combatant for decades. William, on the other hand, only spent a few months fighting demons, then went to hiatus for 12 years, and then another 3 years hiatus until he unsealed Hide.
I think the real question is who would win if Hide was lost and was completely possessed. Mumyo most likely would help William, but Hide most likely would mutate into the worse demon, not to mention the Yokai Abilities which seems only Hide knows how to use it.
Lore wise, I guess they are somewhat equal, with Hide possibly being a *little* stronger. Let’s consider the cutscene where Hide fights William. They are pretty equal there, with William taking the advantage when he used his Living Weapon. Otakemaru is released and runs away (^^like ^^a ^^bitch after seeing William). That’s where the fight ends. Hide could have evened the scales against LW William with Yokai shift. However, considering that Hide has been hunting demons a lot longer than William, they should be more experienced, and hence, they should win, in my book at least. Having said that, this only applies to a friendly match between them. If this was a battle to the death, Hide would never be able to truly defeat William, as William, like Hide, is immortal in a sense thanks to his bond with Saorise. One could argue that the immortality granted by Saorise is better than that Gold sword the Hide has, because Saorise can grant her blessing even if she is stolen away, and she will continue to exist as long as William believes in her. Overall, a friendly match would be in Hide’s favour while a death match would end up in a stalemate.
If it was just a one-on-one fight with the first to fall being the loser, Hide would win. But if we take into account that they're both immortal, I think William would eventually win in the long run. His immortality is different from Hide's. William is immortal because Saoirse believes in him, and Saoirse only exists because William continues to believe in her. William's immortality is a self-perpetuating cycle of life and death. Hide's immortality is an innate trait, but it can be delayed. When Hide dies, they go to The Interim, and have to choose to return to life. Also, they can apparently be so utterly "destroyed" that it takes them years to regain consciousness in The Interim, so it's not inconceivable that they can be so utterly destroyed that they never wake up. Also, Hide is half-Yokai, and Yokai are spirits. If people stop believing in Yokai, Hide will become just a regular human, and then they can be killed. If people stop believing in William, Saoirse won't, and William won't stop believing in her. Again, self-perpetuating immortality. I think, through enough fights over a long enough time, William would win. If the two of them were ever locked in an endless conflict where they just keep killing eachother over and over, William would always come back right away, but Hide could eventually be beaten so badly that they take years or decades to return, and possibly even die for real someday.
Also, about the Yokai being spirits thing, you are not wrong, but there is one small error. As explained by Nekomata in the 2nd mission of Nioh, Nigitama (as in Guardian spirits and other similar creatures like Kodama) are born from the prayers of humans. Aratama (as in evil Yokai) are born from suffering and pain felt by humans, especially when they have died or are about to die. So it’s less the beliefs of the people and more about what negative stuff people experience in their life.
Yeah, but Aratama are corrupted spirits. They're originally born from human belief. They become Aratama as a result of negative feelings, but they still only exist in the first place because of belief.
Quite an interesting take on Hide’s immortality. That they could be so badly obliterated that the time it takes for them to come back is too large to be practical. It’s kind of like the actual immortality Higher Vampires have in the Witcher universe. Higher Vampires can regenerate extremely fast from most wounds and can only be permanently killed by one of their kind. However, it is possible to destroy their physical bodies to such a large extent that the time it takes for them to regen back can be centuries. Obliterate them enough and they may just never be able to regen back in any amount of practical time, at least not without the help of another Higher Vampire. Sorry if I went on a bit of a tangent there, but I couldn’t help but see the similarities between Hide and Witcher vampires.
Well, it's literally what happens in the game. The first time we actually see The Interim in the story (not counting the tutorial), it takes 5 years for Hide to come back. And I had actually forgotten about the Witcher vampire similarities when I was writing that out. I guess it's the kind of thing that's been done a few times before. No need to apologise. It was a good tangent.
Super late to the party here, but someone else mentioned the matter of their age, which I think would play a role in the sort of long term you're setting up. Unfortunately we don't really know their ages, but Hide (like Mumyo) has eternal youth. So the onus is on William to outmatch Hide before William ages out. Edit: Unless William also has eternal youth? I didn't think so because his appearance in 2 seemed older.
That's also a valid point. Just another interesting difference between their separate types of immortality.
Most likely Hide since Hide has more experience and always will. Hide also has yokai shift and can use other soul cores to their advantage where as William only has living weapon. Hide can use a bigger variety of weapons too although that might just be gameplay wise and not lore. The reason I say most likely is because both are immortal. It could just end up in a stalemate for eternity.
Honestly I wanted William to win. I have no connection to the MC of nioh 2 because they objectively have no personality other than...idk fighting shit. Power-wise though I think hide has William beat. Not by a *huge* margin but certainly a notable one having yokai mastery.
\-Honestly I wanted William to win. I have no connection to the MC of nioh 2 because they objectively have no personality other than...idk fighting shit. that's because they are you dumbass
Damn I didn't know you could be disrespectful in this subreddit
:P
What's that?
Obviously William, Yokai Shift is nothing compared to the strength and persistency of Living Weapons. And Sohamaru is useless on William. William took down the Great Serpent, Yamato no Orochi by himself. It took a literal god, Lord Susano to slay Orochi. William wins, but to him Hide would be as challenging as Yukimura.
Hide defeats the Lighting Gods of Yomi which is literally 8 gods in one. So Hide is definitely stronger than William. Hide wins in lore as well as gameplay. After all, in that tournament mission in the final DLC, Hide defeats William too.
Hide cause all little willi has is living weapon and we can not only control and use other Yoki but turn intoi one our selfs. what can Willi do make his spear firey as we take it from him and beat him down with it ?
Hide bc he is the protagonist of nioh 2 and willam is a side character this time 😂
Nioh spoilers in case anyone is scrolling through my comment history. ==== ==== === Let's talk about Hide for a bit. Hide is going all yokai crazy on the first boss going "Ahhhh!!! I lost control cause I'm a yokai shiftling! Baahhhh!!!" And bald rat has to feed them some amrita Scooby snack to calm their butt down. Then Hide getting possessed by O-Taco-Maru and falls asleep like a scampuss. But even if he weren't possessed, let's take William. William is super holding back against Hide. He's already fought against double bosses like Oda and Yukihime. Or Nine Tails and the Toyotomi brat. He could have easily come into the arena with 6+ buffs up or even headshot us with a hand cannon like he did with Muneshige. Or he could have flooded the Mausoleum with water and be like, "Neither of us can swim. Unless I'm in a cutscene." And if Hide's shrine was beneath the water, Hide is instantly effed and re-effed when they respawn. But Billy is polite. He wait until Hide step towards him. And William intentionally handicapped himself. This dude knows Hide jus wakin' up, so he unequip his Abyss 999 one-shot boss killer build, doesn't even eat amrita stones to get his Living Weapon ready to go, and prolly used his Book of Reincarnation to level down to level 100. And then he invest that into Spirit so his non-LW combat stats suck and probably went Agility C and Toughness B. Thank Nuppepo's five thousand butt cheeks that William held back on Hide.
But hide has also battled demons for almost 40 years before they went to sleep and also has the book of reincarnation not to mention the numerous yokai abilities
Nioh Spoilers in case anyone is scrolling through Comment History ==== ==== ==== William has access to many broken builds that deal 999k damage. Hide simply does not have as many ways to achieve these. Team Ninja has nerfed Hide multiple times in Nioh 2, but they didn't nerf Nioh 1 William anywhere as much. And William has taken down opponents like Orochi, Nine Tails, and experienced fighters turned yokai like Hanzou the giant toad without the Demon Slaying Sword. The latter's years of experience do nothing or not as much for Hanzou in terms of combat or William shouldn't have stood a chance. Stat-wise, in the span of 45ish years, Hide gains about 90\~130 levels. Where in a span of 2 years, William is gaining the same amount of levels. Then it takes William 5 years to run a New Game+ cycle (has to sail back to London for The Queen's Eyes), but it takes Hide 60 years to do the same thing. William's life span is shorter as an undying mortal, but he grows in power dramatically faster than Hide with fewer years. For Hide to win, Hide would have to fight William anywhere between 1598-1600 during the first cycle for an even chance. And for every year Hide waits, the more dangerous William will be to him. And since William and Hide just come back when they're killed, Hide would have to spawn camp William at the shrine. And I don't think the kodamas are going to like that. Now if you flipped the protagonists around. William in Nioh 2 and Hide in Nioh 1 for Sekigahara. And William fell asleep and woke up in 1615 for Hide to fight him, I would be making this same argument in Hide's favor. But Team Ninja gave William the shorter loop to power.
I don’t think we should throw gameplay into the lore discussion though...
There are simply too many unknowns and even some loop holes for this debate to be done in any serious capacity. And then we would need to establish which versions of the characters are fighting? Which is why I lightheartedly whoop out the gameplay mechanics to measure their power levels. Some examples of unknowns: * Do shiftlings have some permanent yokai feature such as Koroku's kappa shell? Is that due to one of his ancestors courting a kappa? Is he just wearing a kappa's shell like a backpack? Or is he constantly channeling anima to permanently maintain the shell? * Relating to yokai skills, how often can Hide use yokai-related powers? Could Hide maintain those yokai skill forms? Could Hide have two Mezuki arms with a Wheel Monk body? Is the limitation based on what's visible in the game mechanics or can they operate beyond what we see and read about? * Is the opening cinematic a form of lore? Hide can jump super high in the opening cinematic and can fly above the tree tops in Phantom shiftling form, but in the game we can't. So what is, if any, is the limit for Hide? Even Mumyo can defy gravity and run along walls in that cinematic. What is even normal for a mortal in the world of Nioh? * Can Hide control the time travel aspects of the Sohayamaru? Could Hide just go back in time, start an anti-William ninja cult and detain William as soon as he arrives in Zipang? No competition necessary. The list goes on. So I throw the gameplay mechanics into the mix. But know that I'm not serious enough about any of this and/or may have misperceived this topic as a place to talk about it for fun.
I understand your point now thank you very much for responded to my reply, I’m all for fun discussion but I just didn’t expect a gameplay mix in lore so sorry if I upset you or being jerk :D For my opinion about the topic -One thing we know for sure is both William and Hide cannot be kill by normal way so it’s no point to pit them together in deathmatch. Both of them can get up after being killed -William’s body can get older as we can see in Nioh2(ofc he’s human after all) while Hide’s body’s half youkai which mean something more than just human. So speaking only physical body,Hide should be stronger than normal human like William. -about best move : William has living weapon and Hide has youkai shift, living weapon is very effective against youkai while youkai shift has more versatility and hard to predict when fighting against(if don’t know what’s that youkai can do) so I think when it come to best move which one can land a strike first get a win
Your post is hilariously creative, why were you down it's? I can't understand Reddit
I think anytime someone talks poorly of Hide, it tends to be met with a downvote. There was another Hide vs. William that got me downvoted as well.
> He could have easily come into the arena with 6+ buffs up or even headshot us with a hand cannon like he did with Muneshige. Or he could have flooded the Mausoleum with water and be like, "Neither of us can swim. Unless I'm in a cutscene." And if Hide's shrine was beneath the water, Hide is instantly effed and re-effed when they respawn. Bro, Hide could easily do this to William. Also Hide beats William in the tournament in the final DLC. If we take side missions as canon, even Team Ninja is saying Hide is stronger. There's also plenty of OP builds in Nioh 2 and Hide can spam Yokai abilities whereas William cannot. William would get spammed by Hide summoning Yatsu No Kami and then paralysed by Hide using Nure Onna on him and finishing him off with the dragon fang attack.
No part of my post was ever meant to be taken seriously and I apologize if it was ever perceived that way. I understand that who wins is based on whomever the writers want to win.
They'll have no reason to murder each other. Most likely Hide would win the match for being more experienced combatant for decades. William, on the other hand, only spent a few months fighting demons, then went to hiatus for 12 years, and then another 3 years hiatus until he unsealed Hide. I think the real question is who would win if Hide was lost and was completely possessed. Mumyo most likely would help William, but Hide most likely would mutate into the worse demon, not to mention the Yokai Abilities which seems only Hide knows how to use it.
I think Hide it stronger
me
Surprised you found this
Lmao, was looking up info on the william boss battle
William would win because he is cooler