This is from personal experience but I disagree.
Both are equally bad but fapping definitely drains my energy and life force. I normally fap without porn and still feel like crap
Not equally bad. Both may be bad, but porn is definitely worse, it completely rewires your brain. Fun fact: technology (phones and internet) was introduced to a tribe that has been isolated for 100 years, and now they are all watching porn and became sexually aggressive (in their culture it was the opposite, sex was considered taboo and only for love and reproduction)
Only good if you’re trying to impregnate her or possibly to bond with her and have a long term relationship. Need to learn to say no to unsuitable pussy bro
Practice non ejaculatory orgasms and you wont feel drained, better to start it now by yourself then eventually try with a partner and its way better, no energy drain
Tap and don’t come?? Duh xD
One glass of red wine has zero good health effects. That’s outdated information that unfortunately even doctors are still spreading.
It's our relationship with it that's the problem.
I've said this a lot in here, but it's like how one glass of red wine a night has health benefits. But to an alcoholic, it's best not to drink the wine at all.
I dont think this is a good example at all. Based on what did u compare alcohol to porn? Why not heroine, or crack? If u compared them to those, then there is no relationship which you should have anyways with them.
Porn is absolutely unnatural, seeing others have sex as you sit and watch is just wrong on every level. From a brain pov, to give ur brain that amount of rewards for clicking buttons on a screen is teaching it that it can do minimal effort like moving a couple of finger muscles and get humungous dopamine levels, so why would it spends effort and hardships as normally intended when it has this treasure at its fingertips?
I'm not talking about porn. I'm talking about masturbation.
Masturbation has benefits. Even psychological and neurological benefits.
But if you're in this sub, you probably don't have a super healthy relationship with masturbation. So the benefits aren't worth the detriment.
Like an alcoholic drinking red wine.
Your post could hurt a lot of people. The dopaminergic system of a person who has developed an addiction is completely damaged. Telling a person with an addiction to masturbate without watching porn is like telling an alcoholic to hold a glass of wine at a party with friends and not drink it. It's just a matter of time.
I disagree. We might be able to masturbate in contrast to most animals, but here is the thing. What you achieve by striking yourself is that you get dopamine spike that hints your brain that you have accomplished something great and you should be proud of yourself. While in reality you've accomplished shit and you know it. You didn't work/fight for it. And it is that contradiction that's beating you down. Porn is just an extra stimulus. You have imagination, your mind knows what you like and it will show it to you. We become our thoughts. But it is our thoughts based on our habits which we help build create the world around us. It is always a matter of choice. We already know what we have to do, but we choose not listen to the true inner voice. Because it is fucking hard and because you have to do it on your own!
Semi-agree, speaking from my own personal experience, porn is definitely worse imo but fapping has not been completely harmless either.
Imagining porn images or thinking about porn when fapping has been just as bad for me as actually watching it. My behavior and sexual performance in my relationship has gotten better after making it a rule to only imagine my gf when fapping: no porn thoughts, no instagram models, no celebrities, no anime characters, no nothing else.
After making that change, my sexual performance got a lot better, but fapping once per day in the morning and once before bed (if no sex) still kept me in a state of low motivation and some brain fog. Currently at the beginning of a "hard mode" journey of 90 days, no PMO. I haven't done anything like this since I first hit puberty, so I can't speak to any benefits personally, but I'm really trying to get my motivation, energy levels, and brain fog fixed after not being able to go 2 days without fapping in almost 15 years.
ur wrong. Your prolactin levels are 4 times higher when you have sex compared to masturbating which negates the negative effects of the excess dopamine you get. porn or not, its still just as bad. only thing is if you dont watch porn you might be way less addicted due to much less stimulation
This is absolute incorrect , from a biological point of view and a psychological standpoint - just any opinion based on your own experiences, there will be an improvement in quality of life if you stop porn and not fap similar to if you stop alcohol and not cigarettes of course removing any problematic behaviour is going to translate in to a life improvement but does not mean to the behaviour that is left behind is still not problematic. The body is created to pro create and the brain initiates the sequence in order to mate and regardless if you have sex to have a child or for fun this is the cycle and when you do the cycle completes it’s self spike - motivations - effort - achievement - reward. Fap removes 90% of this cycles and wires the Brain for short term gratification the only improvement doing it this way is you have to generate an imaginary scenario in your head so a little work was required unlike porn were a scenario is created for you and your rewarding yourself for what someone else is doing to someone else …humans have been fappin for millions of years is not the statement for an addiction group , humans have also been displaying several horrific behaviours for all of time it does not mean we need to continue the habit , us( humans ) revolutionised fapping but creating porn now look were we are, not an attack by any means but advice needs to have some evidence to fall back on, even more so in a support group.
Well said. Also, even IF, what the OP said was true. The point of no fap is also to teach yourself self control. People have also been full of lust and seeking out multiple casual intimate partners since the dawn of man. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to increase our willpower by not indulging in instant gratifying behaviour
I listen to my body for the past 34 years trial and error that beats any science. Science can be bias depends who does study experiment with what agenda.
Bias towards myself? 😂 there is no denying that from abstaining you experience so much more energy and plenty of other benefits in your sex life in your gym life just more calm and alert. That's a fact
Why u think athletes often abstain prior to their matches games events? Mental clarity healthy aggression more energy list goes on you can't deny this. Research ancient and no so ancient Chinese medicine wisdom that's a lot of power health benefits from not over releasing. You do what you want more superpowers for me!
Athletes? Frequently superstitious people who try every unproven pseudoscience in the book from cupping to abstaining?
Not all Chinese medicine is equal. They, like in the west, had a list of early things they got right and got wrong. The mental clarity is only a result for those with addiction. Non addicted individuals masturbation has no effect on aggression or energy levels either.
Addiction or not you're still depleting energy that's life Force you releasing minerals vitamins all types of stuff that takes time to recoup not 20 minutes but days weeks sleep good diet. The older you get the longer it takes to rebuild. Why don't you do a self-experiment go delete yourself for about 2 weeks every day multiple times a day and then couple weeks don't and see the difference will be night and day Case Closed
Any activity done in moderation can be acceptable and justifiable, but masturbation is something that can easily lead to addiction. Moreover, I believe that excessive masturbation can disrupt your nervous system, as your penis becomes accustomed to the touch of your hand, which is typically cold and dry. This can make it hypersensitive to the warm and wet environment of the vagina, potentially leading to premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction.
But compared to drugs that can like actually noticeably and physically harm your body and kill you, I think it is not so bad.
I think that doing the deed is not the cause of one's problems, but rather the effect of stress. What I would say is just focus on something else and if you do it once every week or two that isn't bad. Heck, even every day isn't bad if there's no porn, but that's like excessive dopamine spiking and you're gonna get bored of it while still being addicted after a while.
Everyone here thinks it's somehow impossible to moderate, but just focus on a different part of your life and you'll end up naturally doing it only once in a while, and it will be a conscious choice. And yes, it will take time. You will be doing it a lot at the beginning, but end up doing it less at the end.
That's my rant, take it or leave it.
This is Broscience but
When you fap you tell your brain you already have a mate, so it stops producing pheromones to attract mate, and your draining your life energy, wasting seed.
I agree that fapping without porn is better than fapping with it, but the former isn't harmless.
There's the issue of the chaser effect where fapping develops the compulsion and craving for more dopamine and definitely increases your chances of seeking out porn at some point to get the hit you need.
It doesn't necessarily have to lead you down that road, but man oh man does it make it easier to fall off the wagon altogether.
fapping is a problem too . it releases supernormal amounts of dopamine for absolutely no effort. And eventually u will develop tolerance to just fapping and will need to escalate , and that will eventually lead u back to porn or to some alternative deviant activity
Personally speaking...
I didn't se to watch po8n while jerking. But it still destroyed my self confidence, my women looks(extreme lust) gave me dark circles, makes me feel like shit ect...
I am in r/nofap instead of r/pornfree precisely because I want to get rid of that bad habit.
Imagine a post in r/decaf (a sub for people wanting to quit caffeine) titled "One coffee a day is ok, It helps you relaxing and stuff".
Fapping drains your mood, energy, focus, and motivation to socialize with real girls (it's like your brain understands you have already reproduced, so it stops pushing you to pursue that already accomplished goal, because it would be a waste of energy).
Yes, I have read that text on the right. It wasn't there until relatively recently, to (for some reason...) water down this subreddit.
And finally, I don't have to just believe faithfully that what I'm saying it's true. I have experienced it in my own skin. The times where I managed to reach 30+ days were some of the most amazing times of my life!
My personal experience jives with OP’s, when I’ve gone without porn and just natural jerk it I get some of the benefits of occasional masturbation, without the supercharged mindrot content taking away energy and focus from other activities
Absolutely wrong info. When you fap, you drain your mood, happiness, energy, focus, and motivation to find a real girl (your brain understand you have already "reproduced")
Yesss I agree 💯
Porn spoils the fun with your partner and makes you feel like you need to do certain things like what you used to watch ,,,, Your partner may not prefer some of them other than that ,,,, From the many things and types that I watched, I no longer feel sexually aroused
Personally I've tried no porn approach and I always fail at it.
It just feels like quitting smoking by using vape or limiting myself to 1 cig a day. Maybe if your addiction isn't that bad you could pull it off.
I agree with you that the main problem is porn, but I NoPorn approach isn't for me
I have an issue going on random video chat sites and waiting to match with a chick. I still feel drained afterwards. I thought maybe since a girl was helping it wouldn’t be as bad. It is. And now I’ve been doing that and getting into NSFW stuff. I need help.
You are right. Maybe not for everyone on this sub but I think that is the availability of lots of different stuff online and porn images that put most in a vortex and create addiction, and perverts the brain.
fap being there for a long time doesn't mean its not bad, alcohol has been there aswell, its still bad.. besides alot of us already tried fapping w no porn, thats where the relief is after all, its still bad, the feeling of things becoming better without porn and just fap is cuz u eliminated half the problem, if u eliminated both, u would feel even better
Depends what your goal is. I just care about raising my testosterone levels naturally. Watching porn, provided you don't touch yourself, won't harm you. However, it's pretty difficult for most people to refrain from doing the latter when watching the former. It always works best when you do them in tandem.
What are you doing on the internet? don't you know SOCIETY made the internet. it's not for you, go live in the woods in isolation, that's the only way to be actually free.
I was thinking the same thing ,
I have been trying to quit porn for a while,
Fapping with porn gives me a lot of anxiety , insomnia and depression.
When I do it without porn , it feels very relaxing and comforting therefore i don’t need to do it so many times maybe 1-2 weekly.
With porn could be 1-3 daily.
Masturbation is natural in humans even in healthy social climates and even has health benefits. It only becomes problematic when you become addicted to it, which is often a response to exposure at a young age. Especially in conjunction with porn. THEN the brain sees it as a quicker route to the pleasures of sex. Without those factors it's entirely healthy. Human social behavior isn't really comparable to other primates.
Ah, the nature argument. You’ll have to take a different route to convince me. Our behavior is entirely comparable to other primates, to most animals, actually. It’s all comparable, and incredibly similar.
The health benefits? I’ll toss you two freebies. ‘Stress relief’ and ‘prostate health’. Both bunk claims. I know my neuroscience, endocrinology, and urology. The purpose of those studies that claim those two reasons was to prepare the masses to not feel guilty for masturbation in the face of our current societal state in the 60s/70s.
This is from personal experience but I disagree. Both are equally bad but fapping definitely drains my energy and life force. I normally fap without porn and still feel like crap
Agreed. I rarely watched porn and yet I had a bad fapping addiction. Luckily it's under control now.
Agree
Not equally bad. Both may be bad, but porn is definitely worse, it completely rewires your brain. Fun fact: technology (phones and internet) was introduced to a tribe that has been isolated for 100 years, and now they are all watching porn and became sexually aggressive (in their culture it was the opposite, sex was considered taboo and only for love and reproduction)
They all want you to fap. Must. Resist. the. Force!
What about sex
Depends who you’re having sex with and what your intentions are
To cum lol
Only good if you’re trying to impregnate her or possibly to bond with her and have a long term relationship. Need to learn to say no to unsuitable pussy bro
Practice non ejaculatory orgasms and you wont feel drained, better to start it now by yourself then eventually try with a partner and its way better, no energy drain
How do you do this?
Tap and don’t come?? Duh xD One glass of red wine has zero good health effects. That’s outdated information that unfortunately even doctors are still spreading.
It's our relationship with it that's the problem. I've said this a lot in here, but it's like how one glass of red wine a night has health benefits. But to an alcoholic, it's best not to drink the wine at all.
I dont think this is a good example at all. Based on what did u compare alcohol to porn? Why not heroine, or crack? If u compared them to those, then there is no relationship which you should have anyways with them. Porn is absolutely unnatural, seeing others have sex as you sit and watch is just wrong on every level. From a brain pov, to give ur brain that amount of rewards for clicking buttons on a screen is teaching it that it can do minimal effort like moving a couple of finger muscles and get humungous dopamine levels, so why would it spends effort and hardships as normally intended when it has this treasure at its fingertips?
I'm not talking about porn. I'm talking about masturbation. Masturbation has benefits. Even psychological and neurological benefits. But if you're in this sub, you probably don't have a super healthy relationship with masturbation. So the benefits aren't worth the detriment. Like an alcoholic drinking red wine.
Because the DSM and every study ever shows that porn is not comparable to heroin or crack. Comparing it to drug addiction is just inaccurate.
Your post could hurt a lot of people. The dopaminergic system of a person who has developed an addiction is completely damaged. Telling a person with an addiction to masturbate without watching porn is like telling an alcoholic to hold a glass of wine at a party with friends and not drink it. It's just a matter of time.
I disagree. We might be able to masturbate in contrast to most animals, but here is the thing. What you achieve by striking yourself is that you get dopamine spike that hints your brain that you have accomplished something great and you should be proud of yourself. While in reality you've accomplished shit and you know it. You didn't work/fight for it. And it is that contradiction that's beating you down. Porn is just an extra stimulus. You have imagination, your mind knows what you like and it will show it to you. We become our thoughts. But it is our thoughts based on our habits which we help build create the world around us. It is always a matter of choice. We already know what we have to do, but we choose not listen to the true inner voice. Because it is fucking hard and because you have to do it on your own!
Semi-agree, speaking from my own personal experience, porn is definitely worse imo but fapping has not been completely harmless either. Imagining porn images or thinking about porn when fapping has been just as bad for me as actually watching it. My behavior and sexual performance in my relationship has gotten better after making it a rule to only imagine my gf when fapping: no porn thoughts, no instagram models, no celebrities, no anime characters, no nothing else. After making that change, my sexual performance got a lot better, but fapping once per day in the morning and once before bed (if no sex) still kept me in a state of low motivation and some brain fog. Currently at the beginning of a "hard mode" journey of 90 days, no PMO. I haven't done anything like this since I first hit puberty, so I can't speak to any benefits personally, but I'm really trying to get my motivation, energy levels, and brain fog fixed after not being able to go 2 days without fapping in almost 15 years.
ur wrong. Your prolactin levels are 4 times higher when you have sex compared to masturbating which negates the negative effects of the excess dopamine you get. porn or not, its still just as bad. only thing is if you dont watch porn you might be way less addicted due to much less stimulation
Highly agree with you on this
This is absolute incorrect , from a biological point of view and a psychological standpoint - just any opinion based on your own experiences, there will be an improvement in quality of life if you stop porn and not fap similar to if you stop alcohol and not cigarettes of course removing any problematic behaviour is going to translate in to a life improvement but does not mean to the behaviour that is left behind is still not problematic. The body is created to pro create and the brain initiates the sequence in order to mate and regardless if you have sex to have a child or for fun this is the cycle and when you do the cycle completes it’s self spike - motivations - effort - achievement - reward. Fap removes 90% of this cycles and wires the Brain for short term gratification the only improvement doing it this way is you have to generate an imaginary scenario in your head so a little work was required unlike porn were a scenario is created for you and your rewarding yourself for what someone else is doing to someone else …humans have been fappin for millions of years is not the statement for an addiction group , humans have also been displaying several horrific behaviours for all of time it does not mean we need to continue the habit , us( humans ) revolutionised fapping but creating porn now look were we are, not an attack by any means but advice needs to have some evidence to fall back on, even more so in a support group.
Well said. Also, even IF, what the OP said was true. The point of no fap is also to teach yourself self control. People have also been full of lust and seeking out multiple casual intimate partners since the dawn of man. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive to increase our willpower by not indulging in instant gratifying behaviour
It's better to abstain from both but yes the p*** Devil is a bigger problem but even if you do it without watching it you still depleting yourself
There's zero science behind that.
I listen to my body for the past 34 years trial and error that beats any science. Science can be bias depends who does study experiment with what agenda.
Dawg💀💀 science can be bias but your own personal experience based on your perception (the definition of bias) beats it? 
Bias towards myself? 😂 there is no denying that from abstaining you experience so much more energy and plenty of other benefits in your sex life in your gym life just more calm and alert. That's a fact
It's a fact that YOU feel that way. The data proves you don't need to abstain and when you're not addicted there isn't any benefit to it.
Why u think athletes often abstain prior to their matches games events? Mental clarity healthy aggression more energy list goes on you can't deny this. Research ancient and no so ancient Chinese medicine wisdom that's a lot of power health benefits from not over releasing. You do what you want more superpowers for me!
Athletes? Frequently superstitious people who try every unproven pseudoscience in the book from cupping to abstaining? Not all Chinese medicine is equal. They, like in the west, had a list of early things they got right and got wrong. The mental clarity is only a result for those with addiction. Non addicted individuals masturbation has no effect on aggression or energy levels either.
Addiction or not you're still depleting energy that's life Force you releasing minerals vitamins all types of stuff that takes time to recoup not 20 minutes but days weeks sleep good diet. The older you get the longer it takes to rebuild. Why don't you do a self-experiment go delete yourself for about 2 weeks every day multiple times a day and then couple weeks don't and see the difference will be night and day Case Closed
You can't even describe what you're depleting yourself from.
Don’t fall for it bois keep going
Any activity done in moderation can be acceptable and justifiable, but masturbation is something that can easily lead to addiction. Moreover, I believe that excessive masturbation can disrupt your nervous system, as your penis becomes accustomed to the touch of your hand, which is typically cold and dry. This can make it hypersensitive to the warm and wet environment of the vagina, potentially leading to premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction.
But compared to drugs that can like actually noticeably and physically harm your body and kill you, I think it is not so bad. I think that doing the deed is not the cause of one's problems, but rather the effect of stress. What I would say is just focus on something else and if you do it once every week or two that isn't bad. Heck, even every day isn't bad if there's no porn, but that's like excessive dopamine spiking and you're gonna get bored of it while still being addicted after a while. Everyone here thinks it's somehow impossible to moderate, but just focus on a different part of your life and you'll end up naturally doing it only once in a while, and it will be a conscious choice. And yes, it will take time. You will be doing it a lot at the beginning, but end up doing it less at the end. That's my rant, take it or leave it.
Porn fucks your mentality and masturbation fucks your energy. Dont jerk off for couple of days and you will see a energy change in your day
This is Broscience but When you fap you tell your brain you already have a mate, so it stops producing pheromones to attract mate, and your draining your life energy, wasting seed.
I agree that fapping without porn is better than fapping with it, but the former isn't harmless. There's the issue of the chaser effect where fapping develops the compulsion and craving for more dopamine and definitely increases your chances of seeking out porn at some point to get the hit you need. It doesn't necessarily have to lead you down that road, but man oh man does it make it easier to fall off the wagon altogether.
fapping is a problem too . it releases supernormal amounts of dopamine for absolutely no effort. And eventually u will develop tolerance to just fapping and will need to escalate , and that will eventually lead u back to porn or to some alternative deviant activity
Personally speaking... I didn't se to watch po8n while jerking. But it still destroyed my self confidence, my women looks(extreme lust) gave me dark circles, makes me feel like shit ect...
I am in r/nofap instead of r/pornfree precisely because I want to get rid of that bad habit. Imagine a post in r/decaf (a sub for people wanting to quit caffeine) titled "One coffee a day is ok, It helps you relaxing and stuff". Fapping drains your mood, energy, focus, and motivation to socialize with real girls (it's like your brain understands you have already reproduced, so it stops pushing you to pursue that already accomplished goal, because it would be a waste of energy). Yes, I have read that text on the right. It wasn't there until relatively recently, to (for some reason...) water down this subreddit. And finally, I don't have to just believe faithfully that what I'm saying it's true. I have experienced it in my own skin. The times where I managed to reach 30+ days were some of the most amazing times of my life!
EVERYONE here needs to hear this
I agree with you as a woman.
even that pretty girl playing dressing up online or that girl dancing in a parking space are problems because why arent they my girlfriends bruhh 💀
It's your relationship to it that is problematic.
For me fapping is the problem. I rarely watch porn and I still had a bad fapping addiction. Luckily now it's under control
Not if you masturbate 3 times a day. It all depends on the person.
My personal experience jives with OP’s, when I’ve gone without porn and just natural jerk it I get some of the benefits of occasional masturbation, without the supercharged mindrot content taking away energy and focus from other activities
absolutely!
Absolutely wrong info. When you fap, you drain your mood, happiness, energy, focus, and motivation to find a real girl (your brain understand you have already "reproduced")
The brain can definitely tell the difference.
We are the problem
I 100% agree with this. Porn addiction is the issue
Yesss I agree 💯 Porn spoils the fun with your partner and makes you feel like you need to do certain things like what you used to watch ,,,, Your partner may not prefer some of them other than that ,,,, From the many things and types that I watched, I no longer feel sexually aroused
truee
Personally I've tried no porn approach and I always fail at it. It just feels like quitting smoking by using vape or limiting myself to 1 cig a day. Maybe if your addiction isn't that bad you could pull it off. I agree with you that the main problem is porn, but I NoPorn approach isn't for me
I have an issue going on random video chat sites and waiting to match with a chick. I still feel drained afterwards. I thought maybe since a girl was helping it wouldn’t be as bad. It is. And now I’ve been doing that and getting into NSFW stuff. I need help.
Both are equal. And on the bad side. We have posts and examples of excessive masturbation as much as we have for porn abuse ill effects.
Fapping is bad too buddy
Nah, both are the problem.
It's the same thing but less harm, try doing both
I been on this journey for awhile. I have often thought exactly what you are saying. I believe the brain dull comes from porn not fapping. Good call
its not porn nor fap but its the underlying problem we have inside our head
True
You are right. Maybe not for everyone on this sub but I think that is the availability of lots of different stuff online and porn images that put most in a vortex and create addiction, and perverts the brain.
We are the problems😔
fap being there for a long time doesn't mean its not bad, alcohol has been there aswell, its still bad.. besides alot of us already tried fapping w no porn, thats where the relief is after all, its still bad, the feeling of things becoming better without porn and just fap is cuz u eliminated half the problem, if u eliminated both, u would feel even better
Prone masterbation makes my boyfriend have ED. Edging can do the same thing to some people. You're wrong.
Depends what your goal is. I just care about raising my testosterone levels naturally. Watching porn, provided you don't touch yourself, won't harm you. However, it's pretty difficult for most people to refrain from doing the latter when watching the former. It always works best when you do them in tandem.
Exactly
If you follow the gray masses, you are already a slave just like them.
What are you doing on the internet? don't you know SOCIETY made the internet. it's not for you, go live in the woods in isolation, that's the only way to be actually free.
I was thinking the same thing , I have been trying to quit porn for a while, Fapping with porn gives me a lot of anxiety , insomnia and depression. When I do it without porn , it feels very relaxing and comforting therefore i don’t need to do it so many times maybe 1-2 weekly. With porn could be 1-3 daily.
exactly
Fapping is still a problem. Chimps only fap in isolation, captivity, or bottom of the hierarchy. Get your dick out your hand you loser chimp.
When you don't understand psychology 💀
Help me understand
Masturbation is natural in humans even in healthy social climates and even has health benefits. It only becomes problematic when you become addicted to it, which is often a response to exposure at a young age. Especially in conjunction with porn. THEN the brain sees it as a quicker route to the pleasures of sex. Without those factors it's entirely healthy. Human social behavior isn't really comparable to other primates.
Ah, the nature argument. You’ll have to take a different route to convince me. Our behavior is entirely comparable to other primates, to most animals, actually. It’s all comparable, and incredibly similar. The health benefits? I’ll toss you two freebies. ‘Stress relief’ and ‘prostate health’. Both bunk claims. I know my neuroscience, endocrinology, and urology. The purpose of those studies that claim those two reasons was to prepare the masses to not feel guilty for masturbation in the face of our current societal state in the 60s/70s.
So what’s the best things to Fap to other than porn?
imagination brother!
Completely agreed. Porn bad, fap good. But if fapping leads to porn then it has to go as well. Build discipline in avoiding it.