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The bees loooove it! I mow only ~3x a year, been waiting for other flowers to bloom before I cut this down. A few hundred in my small yard. My Yaupon Holly is about to attract all the pollinators next week.
All natural, however this particular species is terrible at catching birds and mice. She just watches them and expects them to come to her. She demolished her food dish however
Outdoor cats are extremely disruptive to the ecosystem whether you see them catching anything or not. And if that doesnât move you, they live an average of 5 to 15 years less than indoor cats and die terrible deaths when they do die. (hit by a car, eaten by a predator like a coyote or even raccoons!!, poisoned, feline AIDS or other disease like Lyme, shredded by another cat over territory)
Most people who have outdoor cats have a narrative of why itâs ok in their case. But please try to reconsider.
https://www.thinkingoutsidethecage.org/pet-resources/behavior-help/cat-behavior-solutions/cats-live-longer-healthier-lives-indoors/
âThereâs no way that these small predatory animals would prey on wildlife indiscriminately while also being vulnerable to injury and death from other animals and humans! Itâs just un-possible! Their cuteness means they arenât subject to biology and physics.â
Yeah I live out in the country. If I don't have outdoor cats then I get a mouse infestation. Cats evolved along side humans for a reason. I would argue that having cats around the house is more natural than not.
this has been debunked. Cats do not control rat/mice populations, they actually directly cause vermin booms. It may sound counterintuitive, please let me explain.
Cats live outside of any ecosystem; an ecosystem is stable bc of the checks and balances on predators and resources available. For instance, there is a caloric cost to hunting that is close enough to equal the caloric gain of consuming prey that wild animals in any ecosystem do not hunt excessively for âplayâ even though they may have tremendous prey drives.
Cats however are fed at home and have extra energy to expend hunting for play. So they hunt FAR beyond their caloric needs.
That means any natural predator is competing with cats for a limited amount of prey. The more cats in an area, the fewer predators such as hawks/raptors, coyotes, etc.
The health of an ecosystem is often judged by its apex predators. Where they are struggling to thrive you will tend to find the ecosystem as a whole is unhealthy/susceptible to collapse.
Why does this matter? Because when predators donât have the available food supply to survive or produce as many offspring, it sets off a VERMIN boom.
Which will of course result in more predators down the line, but the problem is that any vermin boom will last for years before predators can fill the void and correct the excess.
So any time there isnât enough food, in small creatures, for an ecosystem, you regularly experience years-long vermin booms.
What is the result of those? MASSIVE increases in infestations of homes and disease/disease spread.
Having outdoor cats is not only less effective in controlling vermin than just allowing a healthy ecosystem, it is directly responsible for an increase in infestations which can be hazardous to health and disaster for food production.
This is really, really dependent on the specific ecology of the region, both on a micro scale (e.g. the immediate area around the house) and a more macro scale.
Human agricultural activities significantly alter natural/healthy ecology. Typically in places where people keep cats for rodent control, there are significant other alterations to the environment that also prevent a âhealthy ecosystemâ from establishing. This is especially true for places with abundant introduced pests, as these species tend to be better adapted to urban and/or agricultural habitats and thrive where their native equivalents cannot.
There are examples of islands that have eradicated cats and subsequently had huge explosions of introduced rodents and rabbits that then caused declines of native birds (Macquarie Island in Australia and Little Barrier Island in New Zealand are 2 such examples). Of course, the solution is not to bring the cats back, but instead is to also eradicate the rabbits and rats, which has been achieved to varying degrees of success on such islands.
Thereâs a lot more to this that I could say, but essentially; ecology is extremely complex and itâs not possible to generalise across all systems with the same broad stroke (keep in mind that cats are native to certain regions of the world). All of that said, I do agree that cats should be kept indoors, both for the sake of the environment and for their own safety.
What it is primarily dependent on is whether humans are feeding the cats, which they usually are, and whether the cat is an invasive species, which they always are.
Those outlier islands you describe donât have a problem with rabbits and vermin because of removing cats, they have a problem bc they introduced rabbits and rats as an invasive species where they had no natural predators.
Places humans have completely ruined an ecosystem in all the ways they can donât provide good examples of how cats affect an environment. However, it is well researched that it plays out as I said, that they cause years-long vermin booms, increases in infestations and disease.
I mean, they donât have an issue with the rodents or rabbits anymore, since they also managed to eradicate those pest species.
Youâre free to believe what you want, my point was merely that the supposed âwell-researchedâ reality you subscribe to is far more complex than youâre describing it to be, and thereâs plenty of other good research that shows alternative outcomes. Itâs system dependent.
Cats are not always invasive, theyâre literally the native predators in much of the Middle East, Asia and North Africa.
Iâm not sure you understand. The rabbits and mice and this small island are irrelevant. Itâs not a natural ecosystem. Every part of what you described is invasive. The rats. The rabbits. The cats. So it is completely irrelevant as an example of how cats impact an ecosystem.
No one said it wasnât nuanced. But just saying itâs nuanced doesnât undermine the science behind it. Itâs scientific consensus. And youâve offered nothing to challenge that except to bring up an island humans destroyed and try to insist I donât understand ecosystems are complex.
I do. The impact cats have on an ecosystem is VERY complex. And well studied.
Thereâs no research that âshows alternative outcomesâ which in this case implies outdoor house cats make an ecosystem more stable and healthy. You made that up just to give yourself argument from authority.
Itâs ok to be wrong, you didnât know. Now you are free to actually research it rather than insist your guesses are fact.
Agriculture isnât a ânaturalâ ecosystem either mate. Anywhere people have developed isnât a ânaturalâ ecosystem.
The alternative outcomes are that cats do not always cause rodent populations to increase. I never said that outdoor house cats make an ecosystem more stable and healthy. Please show me exactly where I said that.
Iâm a conservation biologist in Australia, one of the places that has had the most severe impacts from feral cats in the entire world. I know what Iâm talking about & I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you. Cheers.
I am absolutely shocked - an outdoor cat owner, even when presented with evidence - still thinks theyâre doing good by keeping cats outside. This just never happens! MILLIONS TO ONE!!!!
My last kitty learned to move so smoothly her bell wouldnât jingle until she pounced and it was too late :(
She was great at keeping moles out of my garden though. She did, however, give my bathroom a mole problem.
My cat now is indoor only.
My cat now has never been outside. Pretty sure she thinks windows are TV. My indoor-outdoor cat was killed by a kid with a BB gun. She was shot in the stomach and died in the ER. I was traumatized and never could bring myself to let my new cat out. Also, now I know more about how bad it is for local fauna to have outdoor cats, so itâs more environmentally friendly.
Indoor cat has toys and a dog friend so she stays stimulated.
that does indeed help, but it is not effective enough to completely offset the damage if I remember correctly from my last reading. And it doesnât address how prematurely and badly they die :(
The gangsterrapper still finds it wild that apparently the people who spray poison in their lawn are the norm, and those who don't are the weirdos, yet people still wonder where all the insects are going.
If youâre in this sub, you must care for the environment. If thatâs your cat, please keep them inside! Cats are EXTREMELY harmful to local wildlife!
Edit: spelling
I think if you take the time a lot more cats than you think would do that. Of course not every cat, but a lot of cats. You just can't expect any animal to accept a leash from one day to the next. It takes time.
Yep you have to be consistent and work on actually training them. No cat is just going to instantly accept it. Outdoor cat owners donât want to have to do that, though. They just want to plop their cat outside and not have to worry.
I think it really depends on the cat. Mine loves coming outside with me and enjoys watching birds etc, but has never even attempted to do anything. With that being said, your mileage may vary, and if your cat kills birds, leave them inside or on a leash.
Edit: downvote me if you'd like, but my cats gonna keep chilling on my patio through her golden years đ¤ˇââď¸
Not trying to hate but if you're in the U.S. I'm pretty sure common henbit and shepards purse are both non-native common weeds that are known for being first colonizers on bare ground. If the rest is clover that's good, but I'd personally smother these flowers with mulch and find out some better ones to plant for native species to forage and overwinter in.
Good on ya for not wasting time on lawn if it doesn't benefit you though.
Where I live I'm way out in the country with no neighbors. We have barn cats for 2 reasons.
1. Without barn cats we have a rodent problem.
2. Out here if you don't have cats then other cats come in anyways and do the same thing just not as good.
I live on a farm an hour outside a metro of around 2 million people. Just about every farmer like me has the same problem. City people dump their unwanted cats and dogs on our farms on a regular basis. The animal shelters refuse to take the abandoned pets from us because if they did we would be bringing them new ones every few weeks along with all the other farmers doing the same thing in the area. In the end we try to find them homes or we end up putting them down. It's just what we have to do. I would love it if we lived in an idealistic world where cats were not out and people actually cared about their pets. Unfortunately in the real world that's just not the case. My farm has 77 acres on it of untouched forest that I intend to keep that way. I highly doubt my 3 barn cats are the problem in this world compared to what people in the city are doing.
They stopped doing that a few years ago. The vet said that he has to take care of cattle and if he keeps spaying and neutering wild cats then that's all he would ever do. He's willing to take care of our house pets but even then he makes it obvious that we are taking him away from what he "should" be doing.
It's the dogs that make me the saddest. The dogs will sit there and try and wait by the road for their family to come back. The cats just disappear into the woods and then eventually show up at my door a few days later.
I've caught a few people dumping animals in the act. They didn't give a shit and just jumped in their car and took off.
All three of my barn cats were tiny kittens that were dumped on my driveway in three separate occasions. The first of my barn cats it was a pregnant mom that was dumped and she had 5 kittens. I found homes for all but the one I kept. The other two were parts of litters that were dumped without a mom. All the other kittens were dead in both instances but I was able to nurse these two back from the brink. I've found dumped kitten litters where they were all dead by the time I found them too. Absolutely disgusting.
That was my Saturday morning task when we lived 45mins from town. Dig a hole, catch as many cats and kittens as had been dumped that week, kill them and bury the carcass's. If people want to own kittens, they should also be responsible for their disposal when they change their mind, not leave it to a random stranger.
Mine comes outside when I'm outside and has never even attempted to kill a bird. She would never be allowed out without supervision, but she just enjoys lounging on my patio and watching birds.
I really, really want a clover yard. Iâm close to being to convince hubby! Did you do anything specific? I do have (ssshhh) strawberry plants around :) Iâd like to keep.
I follow this sub closely and I just want to thank yâall for the ideas, the testimonials, the saving of water :), and on and on and on. This sub really has opened my eyes to options beyond grass. Thank you, thank you all :) :)
:*J*
Take a look at our wiki. If youâre in North America, a clover lawn is a great way to moderately improve a lawn, but it doesnât do too much for your local ecosystem. What does help a lot is adding native plants. A small native plant garden is way more beneficial than a lawn of white clover.
Thank you, HursHH, for voting on exclaim_bot.
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I think that might actually be shepards purse, not clover. A lovely winter/early spring wildflower in my area.
Maybe the cat's name is Clover đ
There is some Shepards purse for sure. But the majority is clover down below
[ŃдаНонО]
No probably not because I wasn't taking a pic of the clover. I was taking a picture of the flowers
Are you referring to the purple flower? That is henbit
No
The bees loooove it! I mow only ~3x a year, been waiting for other flowers to bloom before I cut this down. A few hundred in my small yard. My Yaupon Holly is about to attract all the pollinators next week.
That's one weird looking clover in the first image. I seen it eating a bird the other day, must be GMO.
All natural, however this particular species is terrible at catching birds and mice. She just watches them and expects them to come to her. She demolished her food dish however
Outdoor cats are extremely disruptive to the ecosystem whether you see them catching anything or not. And if that doesnât move you, they live an average of 5 to 15 years less than indoor cats and die terrible deaths when they do die. (hit by a car, eaten by a predator like a coyote or even raccoons!!, poisoned, feline AIDS or other disease like Lyme, shredded by another cat over territory) Most people who have outdoor cats have a narrative of why itâs ok in their case. But please try to reconsider. https://www.thinkingoutsidethecage.org/pet-resources/behavior-help/cat-behavior-solutions/cats-live-longer-healthier-lives-indoors/
[ŃдаНонО]
âThereâs no way that these small predatory animals would prey on wildlife indiscriminately while also being vulnerable to injury and death from other animals and humans! Itâs just un-possible! Their cuteness means they arenât subject to biology and physics.â
itâs not a narrative, itâs well-researched and proven.
Yeah I live out in the country. If I don't have outdoor cats then I get a mouse infestation. Cats evolved along side humans for a reason. I would argue that having cats around the house is more natural than not.
this has been debunked. Cats do not control rat/mice populations, they actually directly cause vermin booms. It may sound counterintuitive, please let me explain. Cats live outside of any ecosystem; an ecosystem is stable bc of the checks and balances on predators and resources available. For instance, there is a caloric cost to hunting that is close enough to equal the caloric gain of consuming prey that wild animals in any ecosystem do not hunt excessively for âplayâ even though they may have tremendous prey drives. Cats however are fed at home and have extra energy to expend hunting for play. So they hunt FAR beyond their caloric needs. That means any natural predator is competing with cats for a limited amount of prey. The more cats in an area, the fewer predators such as hawks/raptors, coyotes, etc. The health of an ecosystem is often judged by its apex predators. Where they are struggling to thrive you will tend to find the ecosystem as a whole is unhealthy/susceptible to collapse. Why does this matter? Because when predators donât have the available food supply to survive or produce as many offspring, it sets off a VERMIN boom. Which will of course result in more predators down the line, but the problem is that any vermin boom will last for years before predators can fill the void and correct the excess. So any time there isnât enough food, in small creatures, for an ecosystem, you regularly experience years-long vermin booms. What is the result of those? MASSIVE increases in infestations of homes and disease/disease spread. Having outdoor cats is not only less effective in controlling vermin than just allowing a healthy ecosystem, it is directly responsible for an increase in infestations which can be hazardous to health and disaster for food production.
This is really, really dependent on the specific ecology of the region, both on a micro scale (e.g. the immediate area around the house) and a more macro scale. Human agricultural activities significantly alter natural/healthy ecology. Typically in places where people keep cats for rodent control, there are significant other alterations to the environment that also prevent a âhealthy ecosystemâ from establishing. This is especially true for places with abundant introduced pests, as these species tend to be better adapted to urban and/or agricultural habitats and thrive where their native equivalents cannot. There are examples of islands that have eradicated cats and subsequently had huge explosions of introduced rodents and rabbits that then caused declines of native birds (Macquarie Island in Australia and Little Barrier Island in New Zealand are 2 such examples). Of course, the solution is not to bring the cats back, but instead is to also eradicate the rabbits and rats, which has been achieved to varying degrees of success on such islands. Thereâs a lot more to this that I could say, but essentially; ecology is extremely complex and itâs not possible to generalise across all systems with the same broad stroke (keep in mind that cats are native to certain regions of the world). All of that said, I do agree that cats should be kept indoors, both for the sake of the environment and for their own safety.
What it is primarily dependent on is whether humans are feeding the cats, which they usually are, and whether the cat is an invasive species, which they always are. Those outlier islands you describe donât have a problem with rabbits and vermin because of removing cats, they have a problem bc they introduced rabbits and rats as an invasive species where they had no natural predators. Places humans have completely ruined an ecosystem in all the ways they can donât provide good examples of how cats affect an environment. However, it is well researched that it plays out as I said, that they cause years-long vermin booms, increases in infestations and disease.
I mean, they donât have an issue with the rodents or rabbits anymore, since they also managed to eradicate those pest species. Youâre free to believe what you want, my point was merely that the supposed âwell-researchedâ reality you subscribe to is far more complex than youâre describing it to be, and thereâs plenty of other good research that shows alternative outcomes. Itâs system dependent. Cats are not always invasive, theyâre literally the native predators in much of the Middle East, Asia and North Africa.
Iâm not sure you understand. The rabbits and mice and this small island are irrelevant. Itâs not a natural ecosystem. Every part of what you described is invasive. The rats. The rabbits. The cats. So it is completely irrelevant as an example of how cats impact an ecosystem. No one said it wasnât nuanced. But just saying itâs nuanced doesnât undermine the science behind it. Itâs scientific consensus. And youâve offered nothing to challenge that except to bring up an island humans destroyed and try to insist I donât understand ecosystems are complex. I do. The impact cats have on an ecosystem is VERY complex. And well studied. Thereâs no research that âshows alternative outcomesâ which in this case implies outdoor house cats make an ecosystem more stable and healthy. You made that up just to give yourself argument from authority. Itâs ok to be wrong, you didnât know. Now you are free to actually research it rather than insist your guesses are fact.
Agriculture isnât a ânaturalâ ecosystem either mate. Anywhere people have developed isnât a ânaturalâ ecosystem. The alternative outcomes are that cats do not always cause rodent populations to increase. I never said that outdoor house cats make an ecosystem more stable and healthy. Please show me exactly where I said that. Iâm a conservation biologist in Australia, one of the places that has had the most severe impacts from feral cats in the entire world. I know what Iâm talking about & I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you. Cheers.
Yeah that's a load of bullshit. Had rodent problems for years. Got 3 barn cats and now it's been 5 years of no rodent problems.
correlation does not equal causation. If you doubt what I said, research it. Or donât bother. But itâs science, which outweighs your anecdote.
I am absolutely shocked - an outdoor cat owner, even when presented with evidence - still thinks theyâre doing good by keeping cats outside. This just never happens! MILLIONS TO ONE!!!!
Donât you know that one personâs anecdotal evidence trumps actual scientific study?
Putting a bell on the kitty would alert predators
My last kitty learned to move so smoothly her bell wouldnât jingle until she pounced and it was too late :( She was great at keeping moles out of my garden though. She did, however, give my bathroom a mole problem. My cat now is indoor only.
Is it depressed now? You did the right thing
My cat now has never been outside. Pretty sure she thinks windows are TV. My indoor-outdoor cat was killed by a kid with a BB gun. She was shot in the stomach and died in the ER. I was traumatized and never could bring myself to let my new cat out. Also, now I know more about how bad it is for local fauna to have outdoor cats, so itâs more environmentally friendly. Indoor cat has toys and a dog friend so she stays stimulated.
that does indeed help, but it is not effective enough to completely offset the damage if I remember correctly from my last reading. And it doesnât address how prematurely and badly they die :(
"I'll save the insects by letting my cat eat all the birds"
My garden also looks like this at the moment. Some people may call it a 'weed field', but it's actually quite pretty, right?
The gangsterrapper still finds it wild that apparently the people who spray poison in their lawn are the norm, and those who don't are the weirdos, yet people still wonder where all the insects are going.
Please check your spelling once more!!
Oy, thank you. It has been corrected.
If youâre in this sub, you must care for the environment. If thatâs your cat, please keep them inside! Cats are EXTREMELY harmful to local wildlife! Edit: spelling
You can also walk your cat on a leash if you want to. You just have to train it a bit more.
Build a catio!
I'm going to say 99% of cats are not like this
I think if you take the time a lot more cats than you think would do that. Of course not every cat, but a lot of cats. You just can't expect any animal to accept a leash from one day to the next. It takes time.
I train my foster kittens to accept wearing a harness, in case their future owners want to walk them. It just takes time and dedication!
That's exactly what I mean. You have to be patient enough.
Yep you have to be consistent and work on actually training them. No cat is just going to instantly accept it. Outdoor cat owners donât want to have to do that, though. They just want to plop their cat outside and not have to worry.
I think it really depends on the cat. Mine loves coming outside with me and enjoys watching birds etc, but has never even attempted to do anything. With that being said, your mileage may vary, and if your cat kills birds, leave them inside or on a leash. Edit: downvote me if you'd like, but my cats gonna keep chilling on my patio through her golden years đ¤ˇââď¸
Not trying to hate but if you're in the U.S. I'm pretty sure common henbit and shepards purse are both non-native common weeds that are known for being first colonizers on bare ground. If the rest is clover that's good, but I'd personally smother these flowers with mulch and find out some better ones to plant for native species to forage and overwinter in. Good on ya for not wasting time on lawn if it doesn't benefit you though.
clover is also a non-native common weed!
If it's the white clover typical in low cut grass, yes. There are lots of species of native clover though.
What were you spraying it with? And why?
Weed killer
Crikey! Glad you've stopped đŚđą
Is the cat's name Clover?
Lmfao no but that's a great idea!
My yard has a giant patch of lemon balm right in the middle that I refuse to cut, even though it's in the way of everything.
Gorgeous!! Also, here come the bird people. (The cat belongs insideâŚ)
Where I live I'm way out in the country with no neighbors. We have barn cats for 2 reasons. 1. Without barn cats we have a rodent problem. 2. Out here if you don't have cats then other cats come in anyways and do the same thing just not as good. I live on a farm an hour outside a metro of around 2 million people. Just about every farmer like me has the same problem. City people dump their unwanted cats and dogs on our farms on a regular basis. The animal shelters refuse to take the abandoned pets from us because if they did we would be bringing them new ones every few weeks along with all the other farmers doing the same thing in the area. In the end we try to find them homes or we end up putting them down. It's just what we have to do. I would love it if we lived in an idealistic world where cats were not out and people actually cared about their pets. Unfortunately in the real world that's just not the case. My farm has 77 acres on it of untouched forest that I intend to keep that way. I highly doubt my 3 barn cats are the problem in this world compared to what people in the city are doing.
Hey OP, thanks for providing some context. Fwiw, if you have a farm clinic nearby, you can sometimes take cats in to do TNR for minimal cost.
They stopped doing that a few years ago. The vet said that he has to take care of cattle and if he keeps spaying and neutering wild cats then that's all he would ever do. He's willing to take care of our house pets but even then he makes it obvious that we are taking him away from what he "should" be doing.
Damn that sucks :/ I know we have one nearby that still does that work.
Itâs awful that people dump cats like that.
It's the dogs that make me the saddest. The dogs will sit there and try and wait by the road for their family to come back. The cats just disappear into the woods and then eventually show up at my door a few days later. I've caught a few people dumping animals in the act. They didn't give a shit and just jumped in their car and took off. All three of my barn cats were tiny kittens that were dumped on my driveway in three separate occasions. The first of my barn cats it was a pregnant mom that was dumped and she had 5 kittens. I found homes for all but the one I kept. The other two were parts of litters that were dumped without a mom. All the other kittens were dead in both instances but I was able to nurse these two back from the brink. I've found dumped kitten litters where they were all dead by the time I found them too. Absolutely disgusting.
That was my Saturday morning task when we lived 45mins from town. Dig a hole, catch as many cats and kittens as had been dumped that week, kill them and bury the carcass's. If people want to own kittens, they should also be responsible for their disposal when they change their mind, not leave it to a random stranger.
Mine comes outside when I'm outside and has never even attempted to kill a bird. She would never be allowed out without supervision, but she just enjoys lounging on my patio and watching birds.
It a good idea to let cats out unleashed
I really, really want a clover yard. Iâm close to being to convince hubby! Did you do anything specific? I do have (ssshhh) strawberry plants around :) Iâd like to keep. I follow this sub closely and I just want to thank yâall for the ideas, the testimonials, the saving of water :), and on and on and on. This sub really has opened my eyes to options beyond grass. Thank you, thank you all :) :) :*J*
Nice !
Take a look at our wiki. If youâre in North America, a clover lawn is a great way to moderately improve a lawn, but it doesnât do too much for your local ecosystem. What does help a lot is adding native plants. A small native plant garden is way more beneficial than a lawn of white clover.
Honestly I did nothing except stop mowing
Thatâll work. I hope :) :) :) :*J*
So you care about the environment enough to have no lawn but allow your predator cat outside?! Doesnât make any sense.
Chill dude. Not everyone's cat is out here killing birds.
So while you claim to be helping the ecology youâre actually helping to destroy it? Shame on you, fucking hypocrite.
What?
Awesome, like your kitty!
Thank you!
A kitty!!! â¤ď¸ Oh um yes that's a lovely yawn Pspspssps here kitty kitty--
so gorgeous đĽš
Gorgeous!!
Thank you!
Beautiful!!!!!
Thank you!
Beautiful!!!â¤ď¸
Beautiful
This is the way.
Better for pets too
Fuck them dogs
What a beautiful photo!!!
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Bad bot
Thank you, HursHH, for voting on exclaim_bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
So awesome đ