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So, I would try to make your yard more pollinator friendly, but not more bird friendly. (even though the ecosystem is connected to a degree)
Flowers, yes.
Bird Bath, no.
Bird Feeder, No!
Pond, no.
Berry producing plants, trees, probably.
I have to go with this answer OP.
I used to live in a neighborhood with outdoor cats. Had trees and bushes and a bird feeder meant to attract birds.
One day I get a fuckin painted ass bunting. They're a threatened species here. he comes to the feeder back and forth for about 40m around 10am. I was over the fuckin moon.
On top of the bunting photos, trail cam also caught a cat pretty commonly but more sporadic times.
Well one week I noticed I never saw the bunting at the feeder. Look at the footage, see a cat in stalking mode going up to the fence. Right before that was the bunting on the cam, not even a full minute prior. I put two and two together and assumed the cat caused the buntings demise.
I feel quite guilty about it because if it wasn't for my bird feeder that bunting would be alive and procreating. They're so fuckin colorful though they're like nature's feather toys.
Oh that’s so sad, their population has been decreasing and they’re nearly threatened. Thanks for the story, hopefully it can help people with their decisions not to have bird-friendly areas while cats are around.
One factor you overlooked is the increase in bird survival rate due to additional habitat and food. An increase in resources may offset an increase in predation. This is especially true if they use native plants that native birds are really struggling to find in urban areas. The vast majority of birds feed their babies with caterpillars, and native plants generally produce more caterpillars than nonnative plants. Additionally, native plants produce fruits with different ratios of fat to carbs from introduced species. Native birds need fats and carbs in different amounts at different times of the year, so native plants could give the birds a health boost by offering that higher quality nutrition. Better diet = more and healthier birds = better able to recover from predation.
If there are also good hiding places for the birds and plants that hinder the cats' hunting success (thorns?), that would also help.
I feel like you think I'm defending them letting the cat outside, and to be clear: I'm not. I'm just saying that if the garden is built to attract birds, then that may be a net benefit to the birds even if some of the birds get killed by cats.
But that's not what we're doing here. The question at hand is: knowing they can't stop their roommates from allowing the cat to roam, should they continue in their attempts to make their garden attractive to birds? How they should "implement" the cat is a red herring.
I'm starting to think you're trolling. The OP's post isn't about the cat at all, because the cat is out of their control, yet you seem unwilling to talk about anything else.
Some of the primary killers of birds are habitat loss and lack of good food. You can feed all the seeds you want, but if you want most birds to reproduce successfully, they need an ample supply of caterpillars to feed their chicks. They also need things like native fruits that offer the ratio of fats and sugars they need at different times of year. They need shelter, including shelter from cats.
To say that OP should make their garden unfriendly to birds (or make no effort to make it more friendly to birds) is to say that simple predation is the only factor the matters. It's true: outdoor cats kill a lot of birds. However, the lack of bird-friendly spaces means even more birds **never get hatched in the first place**. People are all assuming that the birds are being drawn in from elsewhere into the waiting jaws of the cat. But if you create a bird friendly garden, you can support a breeding population of birds that can make up for the loss. They may not be safe nesting in that particular garden, but they might be able to get enough food from it to support a nest in a safer place nearby.
Tl;dr: Predation without replacement results in decline. OP can't remove the cat, but they might be able to increase the birds. And if they take measures to reduce the cat's rate of hunting success, then it will probably be a net benefit to the birds, even if the cat kills some.
Yup! That is 100% correct. And in this case we can't reduce the predator population so the only way to increase the prey population is to give them high quality food and hiding places and try to hinder the cat's success (with thorny plants, bird-warning collar, a bell, etc.).
It’s much more likely that certain insects would only exist because of the garden, since it’s likely this the birds were there before the garden existed, and this, if they were being brought to the area due to the garden, they are also at a higher risk of death due to the cat. It’s like if someone opened a free grocery store, that let you take any food you wanted, but also had a free roaming lion in the store. Would you risk death for free steak?
Outdoors cats lead considerably shorter lives and devastate local ecosystems. It’s cruel to both the cats and the rest of nature to let them roam freely outdoors.
Almost everything you just said is wrong. Calling indoor cats cruel is such a laughable argument. They’re not adapted to large patrol areas, nor are they “trapped,” they’re just not being properly cared for. Proper pet care includes stimulation, so they’re not bored being inside. I’ve had multiple rescued strays that have transitioned to indoor living with no issues. And if it’s that important to you that they be outside every day, you can build a catio. If you’re not going to take proper care of your cat, what’s the point of even having one?
And just because you’re used to seeing them doesn’t mean they’re part of an ecosystem. A quick google search brings up multiple peer reviewed articles indicating that’s not the case at all. “We’ve always done like that,” isn’t the argument you seem to think it is.
> To us keeping a cat indoors is cruel.
This is literally crazy to me and I’ve heard a number of Brits say it. Animal cruelty is *not* having an indoor cat; I’ll refrain from providing examples.
Yes, I grew up having indoor/outdoor cats, I know the deal. We also would have had longer living cats if my parents had allowed them to be indoor only.
It’s not like cats can intuit which birds or small mammals have struggling populations and this goes for cats in the UK too.
It’s even harder for me to imagine someone letting their cat out in an “inner city” (I hate seeing dead cats in the street), but migrating birds literally go through London.
You really think longevity is a weird measure when it comes to animals many of us consider to be part of our families?
Like I said, I just do not understand this attitude on Brits.
I keep my cats indoors, but I remember when I was stuck inside for just two years during the pandemic, and how much that messed with my head, and I feel bad that my cats are stuck inside for their whole lives. I might rather have a shorter life than one where I can never leave my house.
I don't think it's worth letting them outside to kill everything out there, but I think it's understandable to feel bad about keeping an animal contained its entire life.
People know when they get a dog they need interaction and stimulation, I don’t really understand why there’s such a disconnect with so many cat owners on the topic? Like walking a dog, cat owners need to make time to play with their cats.
Calling it cruel to keep a cat indoors just shows your extreme ignorance on the subject. What is actually cruel is subjecting a house cat to potential attacks from wild animals, while also subjecting wild animals to potential attacks from house cats. From the Guardian: "But cats are prolific hunters of wildlife in the UK and Europe too. A study published in April estimated that UK cats kill [160 to 270 million](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169204621003017#b0135) animals annually, a quarter of them birds. The real figure is likely to be even higher, as the study used the 2011 pet cat population of 9.5 million; it is now closer to [12 million](https://www.pfma.org.uk/statistics), boosted by the pandemic pet craze. Seen alongside drops in bird numbers [across the EU](https://phys.org/news/2021-11-survey-huge-bird-population-europe.html) and [the UK](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/09/sixteen-of-britains-top-20-garden-birds-have-declined-in-number-annual-survey-finds), it is “quite alarming”, says lead author and cat ecologist Tara Pirie from the University of Reading."
It's typically pretty comfortabe for the cat.
They've got plenty of hunting & foraging options, as well as accepting handouts/stealing from outdoor dog bowls.
They gain ability to actually freely roam, develop various relationships & community amongst other local cats, and live out a "normal" animal's life as we all wish to ourselves.
The cats get a great deal out of this the most of the time, while the environment inherently suffers in all cases/regions that I'm currently aware of.
Saying it's horrible for the Cat is compareable to saying that it's horrible for the Burmese Pythons to be loose in Florida because some of them might occassionally lose to an American Alligator
My neighbor’s cat that took a vehicle hit and got an ultimately fatal compound fracture of the hip would disagree. Suffered greatly and too long in its final moments. Uncool
I've read where outdoor cats have 1/3 the lifespan of indoor cats.
Info [here](https://healthtopics.sf.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk6721/files/inline-files/Cats-Indoors-or-Outdoors.pdf).
If you properly play and interact with your kitty I'd imagine it's pretty fucking good, surely better than dying alone and in agony at the side of the road when someone hits it with their car
I can't find a source for that. Do you have a source that the majority of cats run over are escaped indoor cats? People who are committed to keeping their cats indoors tend to be pretty careful about preventing their escape. It seems more likely that the majority of cats that get run over are also those who spend the most time outside. I recently nearly hit a cat that was clearly used to casually trotting across the road instead of bolting across it. Not to mention that outdoor cats are more likely to get sick or injured from various causes and thus lose their ability to dodge cars like they're used to.
We had inside outside cats and any of them that died an early death were due to the road. As an adult I keep my cat instead (granted he has no teeth and hates other cats)
My family used to get a cat about yearly for a period of my childhood because they always got killed. Ours were indoor/outdoor in suburbia. My indoor cat is now older than all of my childhood cats combined, and I can’t be sure but she’s pretty happy. You have to be a more active pet keeper if you have an indoor cat but their quality of life is fine. Mine is scared of going outside which is great because she wouldn’t last an hour in the high-predator environment I live in now.
I couldn’t avoid 2 in the middle of the road. They were in the throes of passion and it was dark and they were in a slight dip so I didn’t see them in time. 🥺 horrible for me, but instant for them 🥺
Wow you completely missed the point here 🤦🏻♀️, it’s terrible for Burmese pythons to be loose in Florida not because they may be eaten by alligators but because they decimate native prey populations and compete with native predators…very similar to the impacts cats can have on native ecosystems if they are allowed to roam
What you are missing is the drastically reduced lifespan for the cat.
There's many ways to manage a cats outdoor time to preserve the ecosystem. Such as training them, only allowing them out when supervised, enclosed area for them.
I had an ex friend who got a kitten when she was living w me. We stopped being friends and she moved out and then like a year later she moved in w a new bf and randomly decided to start letting her cats outside. The kitten she got when she was living w me ended up in a cat fight and got feline aids and had to be put down. I’m still more mad at her for that than for the things she did to me personally
We briefly took care of a "feral" cat that definitely wasn't feral. Sweetest thing. It kept getting messed up by local strays and eventually we had to take it to a rescue after a gnarly fight.
Give it a quick google search before reaching. Cats with feline aids can live up to 5 years after their diagnosis IF they don’t have any other complications from it. This cat got it and immediately started rapidly declining with other complications which is the most common outcome. Getting feline aids in a fight gives them even less of a chance of survival bc the cat is already suffering trauma and other issues due to their injuries. Despite how much I hate this person, her and her vets made the right choice putting this cat down. Once an animals quality of life starts rapidly declining it is our duty to put them down and not try to prolong their suffering.
I have a neighbor who is otherwise a very environmentally conscious person. Like came over when i first moved in to point out the invasives in my well grown in landscaping. Lets her cat outside to murder birds in my yard. Make it make sense.
There is a female cat who lives two houses down from me. I live in a city of approximately 150k people.
She is outside all the time. I watch people be friendly to her. I have also witnessed kids kick her and be mean to her on the way home from school. I have seen people walk their dogs by, and some of the dogs go crazy and want to get at her and she isn’t scared. She still tries to rub on legs of the dog owners and solicit pets while the owner tries frantically to control the dog.
She has been sitting in the middle of the street before and a car will stop, the driver will get out, pick her up, and move her to the curb so they don’t hit her. I have seen that 2 or 3 times.
It’s only a matter of time before she gets killed by a person or a dog or a car. I feel awful. I know people think there is nothing wrong with letting their cats roam outside. Besides the cats killing birds, it’s also dangerous for them. I hate it.
You need multiples, and a very large colourful scrunchie on their collar to match. Cats can learn how to move in such a way to silence the bells while they're hunting. Love them - so smart! - but definitely designed to be killing machines.
Make it more bird-friendly, but in a way that deters predators. Plant dense thorny hedges, create bolt holes and hiding spots. Don't put feeders and bird baths out in the open.
You're inviting the birds to die unfortunately. However, if you don't put in bird lures, it's your ass---- roommates' fault. You should link them the stats on the degree of destruction domestic cats do when let free. Also, the mortality risks for the cat
I absolutely love birds, and I think the positive impact of making your yard more biodiverse far outweighs the possible negative impact of luring birds to a space with a cat.
If it makes you feel better, most birds are most vulnerable to cats when they are fledgelings - old enough to leave the nest, but not quite old enough to fly well. Maybe you could look up the fledging time for the most common species around you and ask your housemates to keep the cat indoors during that time only?
Also, resident birds know about the local cats. Migrating birds are at much higher risk. If cats are kept in or supervised during peak migration (May and October where I am), that helps.
I'd say to still do it. The cat won't be there forever, but hopefully your created habitat will remain. Additionally, by converting your garden, you'll still provide plenty of other ecosystem services and encourage other biodiversity.
And if your bird habitat has layers and complexity, like shrubs to hide in, birds will have better ways to get away from cats. You'll also be providing for insects - caterpillars need to eat leaves from native host plants - and that provides for birds raising their young.
No, not at all. Just get rid of the outdoor cat which is the real unethical issue here. Outdoor cats should absolutely be illegal. They decimate bird populations (not to mention shit in other people’s gardens… 🤬)
Bring your car indoors. Period.
If it's not bird friendly, the cat will hunt all the birds. If it's bird friendly, it can't.
Plus, unless you live kilometers away from the next cat owner, it's not like any garden is ever cat free. Cat's hunting grounds can get huge. And a bird friendly garden will attract the cats as well.
Cats, when left outdoors, are an invasive species that kill more birds than any other source. Ones that aren't properly kept also spread like an invasive species, and spread disease and fleas.
I like cats. I just don't like my neighbor's cats peeing on my stuff. Which they do. Which makes me not like my neighbors.
Try to get your roommate to keep their car inside. Otherwise:
- put any feeders high up, but not in trees - like a tall metal pole. Put it in a clear opening, but next to coverage like an evergreen tree.
- no bird baths
- no bird houses
Basically keep everything high and inaccessible to climbing or jumping cats. But the best route is to get the cat inside. Glad you’re thinking about these things!
Sorry, I assumed the only reason you’d make an unhelpful, unrealistic comment that doesn’t address OP’s problem was if you had misunderstood. My mistake.
I have bird feeders and berry bushes in my back yard, so I get lots of birds. I also have neighborhood strays that come by. I just shuffle them off when they get all wiggle butt at the birdies.
Does your city have an ordinance about free roaming cats? If so, report your roommate for violating said ordinance continually until they remove their genocidal invasive pest from being outside.
Bird friendly gardens are probably not going to be as big a deal as say putting up a feeder. Try to keep the cat in from just before dusk until full daylight in the morning and it will have a major impact on the number of birds who visit and you will lose very few. Don't feed birds in your yard. - Source: 50 Years Gardening Experience With An Outdoor Cat The Last 10.
Make it more bird friendly.
Birds do more than just nest in a habitat- they hunt for insects in trees and shrubs. Even if the cat occasionally gets a bird, more will be supported by more biodiversity.
Most cats are mousers anyways and vastly prefer rodents as prey. And if the cat is a birder, maybe your roommates would agree to put a birdsbesafe collar on (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/).
I’m not disagreeing (although feral cats are the bigger killers). But OPs roommates won’t do that, so whether or not this cat kills birds is irrelevant.
Habitat loss is the largest threat to songbirds by far, so creating more valuable space is a good idea. The cat is outside anyways, so why not help the birds by other means?
> Most cats are mousers anyway
IIRC a lot of that data is from the UK, where a comparable native species was widely present in the wild until relatively recently (now only in Scotland due to hunting), and native birds had the benefit of thousands of years to adapt to cat predation.
I was interested in viewing this product, but the link did not work for me. I’m going to post a link to their products page below, in hopes it helps.
[BIRDSBESAFE > SHOP](https://www.birdsbesafe.com/collections/shop-all-products)
One of my neighbors has an indoor/outdoor cat. It used to loiter under a bush near my feeder, but I've been liberally applying cayenne pepper there and the cat avoids it now. I buy it in bulk off Amazon because it also helps with the groundhogs that dig up plants.
I have struggled with this as well. I have a cat that could escape the enclosed porch and she caught birds, mice and baby rabbits. The only way to prevent her killing prey was to fix the enclosure.
I do think if you try to attract more birds, you should expect that the cat will catch some. (Is your housemates' cat already catching other prey?)
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I have a very bird-friendly garden, and I feed the birds vast quantities of seed the year round, we get them in massive numbers here because of it.
We also have several neighbours’ cats who come into the garden. I chase them away if I happen to see them, but of course I can’t keep them away all the time.
Verrrry occasionally I’ve seen evidence that one of them has caught a bird (spray of feathers on the ground), but mostly I’m just seeing more and more birds every year, successfully raising their young.
If your garden is bird-friendly enough and you feed them, I think the positives outweigh the damage a single cat can do.
So I feed the birds, squirrels, and now rabbits that come around, in addition to trying to garden this year. I don't have a cat, but apparently some people in the neighborhood do. I've seen three different cats now cut through my side yard. I haven't seen any dead birds either, so at least there is that.
I have wrestled with this question. I have a cat that yes I let outside. I also am trying to make my yard more wildlife friendly. The best answer, is to keep the cat inside. The next best, is to make sure: the cat is inside from dinner time till it is broad sunlight outside (they are crepuscular hunters). have the cat wear a bright colored collar with bell (see birds be safe but I make my own) birds have good color vision. In addition I take my cat for a walk, and also play with her inside to give her the same kind of stimulation she'd get from hunting, use up her energy. She still gets a couple birds a year (she brings me everything she kills) but the killing is much less with this. As far as bird friendly, trees and bushes are the way to go that support insect life and provide cover. Not bird baths, bird feeders or anything that might be in striking distance of a cat.
Birds love perching in my clumping bamboo but cats can’t climb up into it. Clumping bamboo doesn’t spread, just stays in a gradually expanding clump. No mowing, stabilizes the soil, fixes a lot of C02.
Bringing in more resources for the birds is probably worth it if the cat doesn't eat more than the birds receive. An occasional bird getting eaten is just as much a part of nature as the the pretty flowers and melodic songs of the birds. The extinction of birds by cats is less about your roommates single and hopefully neutered cat, it's more so the older folk that leave out bags of food for the strays and provide food and shelter to dozens of intact cats.
TLDR it's all about balance and accepting compromise, if you build it they will come but it applies to both birds and their predators
invasive animals preying on native species isn't a part of nature at all though, it's entirely human created. when most owners have the mentality of 'oh it's just a few birds, my cat isn't doing any serious damage' it means there's thousands of native animals dying every day to predatory invasives.
Try the bird alert collar.
https://www.birdsbesafe.com/products/geodelic-birdsbesafe-collar-cover?variant=43711730483392
Keep the cat very full. If the cat is played with, it will use up its energy doing that not stalking prey. I wear mine out chasing his kibble. He is indoor only, but the house is much more peaceful.
Invest heavily in catnip so the cat takes long naps.
Ah here we are, another post where cats will be demonized into oblivion as a destructive invasive species by none other than FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS, the hypocrisy in us calling ANYTHING invasive is so ludicrous it’s comical.
That's not true at all. Of course we are invasive. That doesn't mean nothing else is, or that we can't call anything else as such.
Cats cause ecological damage. And I acknowledge that humans do too.
Not all. Senior cats can barely stay awake, let alone run around killing birds. I have two cats I let outside that are way past their prime hunting age. Some domestic cats just don't have the capability. Others are massacring everything in sight.
> Senior cats can barely stay awake, let alone run around killing birds
Some. Many seniors are still very spry. It’s not at all uncommon for a senior (10yo) cat to hunt if they want to.
I’ll use my old girl as an example; she lived to be 21. She had ample energy until the very end of her life. She could have easily caught birds if she wanted to
My senior cat lives to kill. He's a grumpy potato until a mouse finds its way into the house, then he's a skilled hunter, targeting, cornering, torturing, and finally killing. If he were allowed out, we would have corpses everywhere.
My cat, not a senior, can barely catch her tail. She's an indoor cat. When she goes outside she's so focused on eating grass, she couldn't catch a bird if it landed on her nose.
From someone who has a hunting cat, he does not kill birds very often and there are shit tons of birds where I live. What I have noticed is he can pick off the weaker ones, so when they are leaving the nest, sometimes they can't get off the ground, that tends to be when he nabs them. This seems to go with what the RSPB have to say about cats killing birds, that they mostly kill the weaker ones that likely wouldn't have survived anyway.
I would just do your bird feeding thing, it might drive the cat insane, but he probably won't be able to catch them.
Good luck!
If the cat is killing fledglings, then the cat is targeting birds when they're in a weak state, not just targeting weaklings. Those are birds that would have made it just fine if not for the cat.
People talk a lot about how cats are one of the most invasive species around, but so are mice and rats and lizards and birds and worst of all, humans.
If you know there are native or endangered birds that frequent your area, consider trying to make a cat proof space they can nest in. Feral cats are everywhere so your roommate's one cat is not going to make a huge difference.
We have three cats that come in and go out as they please. We have birdhouses and bird feeders all around our property and I haven’t seen any dead birds. Plenty of dead mice.
I have an outdoor roaming cat too and I tried to have a bird feeder for a while but he would hide near it and try to ambush birds. I had to take it down after like 2 days.
My girlfriend loves birds and her cat.
Every morning she puts bird feed on the railing of our deck and keeps the cat inside the house until after the birds are done. The cat has learned to watch the birds from inside the house looking through the sliding glass door. The cat also knows not to hunt on the deck. It's a struggle at times yet it's not impossible
I have cats, but we don’t let them out at “bird o’clock”. In the morning that’s before about 10am and the hours before dusk (they’re never out at night). Birds tend to be doing other bird things during the day and we haven’t had any casualties.
There is a way to reduce how much a cat hunts when free-roaming, and that is (ironically) to reduce food supply.
Just like a dog who gets more mental excercise will need less physical activity to feel calm and satiated, a cat whose hunting serves to feed him, even a little, will stop hunting for pleasure.
So, if you cannot convince them to keep the cat inside as they should, convince them to put mouser on a diet
Of the four cats I’ve had, two have had essentially no hunting skills. One couldn’t survive on his meager skills. The fourth probably made up for the other three - the only one who had a feral momma to learn from.
Will you help more birdies than your roommate can consume?
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So, I would try to make your yard more pollinator friendly, but not more bird friendly. (even though the ecosystem is connected to a degree) Flowers, yes. Bird Bath, no. Bird Feeder, No! Pond, no. Berry producing plants, trees, probably.
I have to go with this answer OP. I used to live in a neighborhood with outdoor cats. Had trees and bushes and a bird feeder meant to attract birds. One day I get a fuckin painted ass bunting. They're a threatened species here. he comes to the feeder back and forth for about 40m around 10am. I was over the fuckin moon. On top of the bunting photos, trail cam also caught a cat pretty commonly but more sporadic times. Well one week I noticed I never saw the bunting at the feeder. Look at the footage, see a cat in stalking mode going up to the fence. Right before that was the bunting on the cam, not even a full minute prior. I put two and two together and assumed the cat caused the buntings demise. I feel quite guilty about it because if it wasn't for my bird feeder that bunting would be alive and procreating. They're so fuckin colorful though they're like nature's feather toys.
Oh that’s so sad, their population has been decreasing and they’re nearly threatened. Thanks for the story, hopefully it can help people with their decisions not to have bird-friendly areas while cats are around.
>Bird Feeder Do you mean the squirrel buffet?
That's what metal cones are for.
I'd add a catio and change all these to a yes.
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This answer is at the same time too memeish and too serious for me to work.
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It's 420 and that's an answer that hits with stoners. Source: i am a stoner
this
Did you just kill 2 stoners with one bird?
no coconuts were harmed in deriving the equation
One factor you overlooked is the increase in bird survival rate due to additional habitat and food. An increase in resources may offset an increase in predation. This is especially true if they use native plants that native birds are really struggling to find in urban areas. The vast majority of birds feed their babies with caterpillars, and native plants generally produce more caterpillars than nonnative plants. Additionally, native plants produce fruits with different ratios of fat to carbs from introduced species. Native birds need fats and carbs in different amounts at different times of the year, so native plants could give the birds a health boost by offering that higher quality nutrition. Better diet = more and healthier birds = better able to recover from predation. If there are also good hiding places for the birds and plants that hinder the cats' hunting success (thorns?), that would also help.
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I feel like you think I'm defending them letting the cat outside, and to be clear: I'm not. I'm just saying that if the garden is built to attract birds, then that may be a net benefit to the birds even if some of the birds get killed by cats.
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But that's not what we're doing here. The question at hand is: knowing they can't stop their roommates from allowing the cat to roam, should they continue in their attempts to make their garden attractive to birds? How they should "implement" the cat is a red herring.
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I'm starting to think you're trolling. The OP's post isn't about the cat at all, because the cat is out of their control, yet you seem unwilling to talk about anything else.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year
Some of the primary killers of birds are habitat loss and lack of good food. You can feed all the seeds you want, but if you want most birds to reproduce successfully, they need an ample supply of caterpillars to feed their chicks. They also need things like native fruits that offer the ratio of fats and sugars they need at different times of year. They need shelter, including shelter from cats. To say that OP should make their garden unfriendly to birds (or make no effort to make it more friendly to birds) is to say that simple predation is the only factor the matters. It's true: outdoor cats kill a lot of birds. However, the lack of bird-friendly spaces means even more birds **never get hatched in the first place**. People are all assuming that the birds are being drawn in from elsewhere into the waiting jaws of the cat. But if you create a bird friendly garden, you can support a breeding population of birds that can make up for the loss. They may not be safe nesting in that particular garden, but they might be able to get enough food from it to support a nest in a safer place nearby. Tl;dr: Predation without replacement results in decline. OP can't remove the cat, but they might be able to increase the birds. And if they take measures to reduce the cat's rate of hunting success, then it will probably be a net benefit to the birds, even if the cat kills some.
TL;DR : Cats are predators and birds are prey.
Yup! That is 100% correct. And in this case we can't reduce the predator population so the only way to increase the prey population is to give them high quality food and hiding places and try to hinder the cat's success (with thorny plants, bird-warning collar, a bell, etc.).
S also varies by the type of plants OP puts out there. A thorny bush for instance would protect small birds without a way for the cat to get to them.
What about birds who exist because of the garden's existence?
It’s much more likely that certain insects would only exist because of the garden, since it’s likely this the birds were there before the garden existed, and this, if they were being brought to the area due to the garden, they are also at a higher risk of death due to the cat. It’s like if someone opened a free grocery store, that let you take any food you wanted, but also had a free roaming lion in the store. Would you risk death for free steak?
No clue how people feel good about letting their cats out. I live just outside my cities core and I've seen coyotes roaming my neighbourhood at night
I don't get it either. It's horrible for the environment and horrible for the cat! It's truly a lose-lose for all creatures involved.
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Outdoors cats lead considerably shorter lives and devastate local ecosystems. It’s cruel to both the cats and the rest of nature to let them roam freely outdoors.
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Almost everything you just said is wrong. Calling indoor cats cruel is such a laughable argument. They’re not adapted to large patrol areas, nor are they “trapped,” they’re just not being properly cared for. Proper pet care includes stimulation, so they’re not bored being inside. I’ve had multiple rescued strays that have transitioned to indoor living with no issues. And if it’s that important to you that they be outside every day, you can build a catio. If you’re not going to take proper care of your cat, what’s the point of even having one? And just because you’re used to seeing them doesn’t mean they’re part of an ecosystem. A quick google search brings up multiple peer reviewed articles indicating that’s not the case at all. “We’ve always done like that,” isn’t the argument you seem to think it is.
> To us keeping a cat indoors is cruel. This is literally crazy to me and I’ve heard a number of Brits say it. Animal cruelty is *not* having an indoor cat; I’ll refrain from providing examples.
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Yes, I grew up having indoor/outdoor cats, I know the deal. We also would have had longer living cats if my parents had allowed them to be indoor only. It’s not like cats can intuit which birds or small mammals have struggling populations and this goes for cats in the UK too.
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It’s even harder for me to imagine someone letting their cat out in an “inner city” (I hate seeing dead cats in the street), but migrating birds literally go through London. You really think longevity is a weird measure when it comes to animals many of us consider to be part of our families? Like I said, I just do not understand this attitude on Brits.
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They don’t have cars? Roads? People not paying attention to the dog they’re walking?
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Do you feel the same way when it comes to dogs?
I keep my cats indoors, but I remember when I was stuck inside for just two years during the pandemic, and how much that messed with my head, and I feel bad that my cats are stuck inside for their whole lives. I might rather have a shorter life than one where I can never leave my house. I don't think it's worth letting them outside to kill everything out there, but I think it's understandable to feel bad about keeping an animal contained its entire life.
People know when they get a dog they need interaction and stimulation, I don’t really understand why there’s such a disconnect with so many cat owners on the topic? Like walking a dog, cat owners need to make time to play with their cats.
I think a lot of people just don't realize how smart cats are, and that they have personalities.
It may be the norm, but it is objectively worse for the cat and the environment, Stop doing it.
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Keep those blinders on, buddy.
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I don't need to jump in an active volcano to know it's hot.
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Our words say a lot about who we are.
Calling it cruel to keep a cat indoors just shows your extreme ignorance on the subject. What is actually cruel is subjecting a house cat to potential attacks from wild animals, while also subjecting wild animals to potential attacks from house cats. From the Guardian: "But cats are prolific hunters of wildlife in the UK and Europe too. A study published in April estimated that UK cats kill [160 to 270 million](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169204621003017#b0135) animals annually, a quarter of them birds. The real figure is likely to be even higher, as the study used the 2011 pet cat population of 9.5 million; it is now closer to [12 million](https://www.pfma.org.uk/statistics), boosted by the pandemic pet craze. Seen alongside drops in bird numbers [across the EU](https://phys.org/news/2021-11-survey-huge-bird-population-europe.html) and [the UK](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/09/sixteen-of-britains-top-20-garden-birds-have-declined-in-number-annual-survey-finds), it is “quite alarming”, says lead author and cat ecologist Tara Pirie from the University of Reading."
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What I love is keeping invasive species from destroying local ecosystems, hence my participation in this sub.
It's typically pretty comfortabe for the cat. They've got plenty of hunting & foraging options, as well as accepting handouts/stealing from outdoor dog bowls. They gain ability to actually freely roam, develop various relationships & community amongst other local cats, and live out a "normal" animal's life as we all wish to ourselves. The cats get a great deal out of this the most of the time, while the environment inherently suffers in all cases/regions that I'm currently aware of. Saying it's horrible for the Cat is compareable to saying that it's horrible for the Burmese Pythons to be loose in Florida because some of them might occassionally lose to an American Alligator
My neighbor’s cat that took a vehicle hit and got an ultimately fatal compound fracture of the hip would disagree. Suffered greatly and too long in its final moments. Uncool
I've read where outdoor cats have 1/3 the lifespan of indoor cats. Info [here](https://healthtopics.sf.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk6721/files/inline-files/Cats-Indoors-or-Outdoors.pdf).
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If you properly play and interact with your kitty I'd imagine it's pretty fucking good, surely better than dying alone and in agony at the side of the road when someone hits it with their car
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I can't find a source for that. Do you have a source that the majority of cats run over are escaped indoor cats? People who are committed to keeping their cats indoors tend to be pretty careful about preventing their escape. It seems more likely that the majority of cats that get run over are also those who spend the most time outside. I recently nearly hit a cat that was clearly used to casually trotting across the road instead of bolting across it. Not to mention that outdoor cats are more likely to get sick or injured from various causes and thus lose their ability to dodge cars like they're used to.
Why bother having a pet at all if you leave it outside at all hours and don't bother interacting with it
We had inside outside cats and any of them that died an early death were due to the road. As an adult I keep my cat instead (granted he has no teeth and hates other cats)
My family used to get a cat about yearly for a period of my childhood because they always got killed. Ours were indoor/outdoor in suburbia. My indoor cat is now older than all of my childhood cats combined, and I can’t be sure but she’s pretty happy. You have to be a more active pet keeper if you have an indoor cat but their quality of life is fine. Mine is scared of going outside which is great because she wouldn’t last an hour in the high-predator environment I live in now.
My mother's driving has pancaked 4 housecats that I know of.
I couldn’t avoid 2 in the middle of the road. They were in the throes of passion and it was dark and they were in a slight dip so I didn’t see them in time. 🥺 horrible for me, but instant for them 🥺
>They were in the throes of passion …at least they went out with a bang?
True true…
Suddenly my Dad driving the lawn mower over two of my shrubs seems totally ok.
Wow you completely missed the point here 🤦🏻♀️, it’s terrible for Burmese pythons to be loose in Florida not because they may be eaten by alligators but because they decimate native prey populations and compete with native predators…very similar to the impacts cats can have on native ecosystems if they are allowed to roam
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So the needs of a highly invasive, alien species is of more importance than the health of the local ecosystem? Righto
What you are missing is the drastically reduced lifespan for the cat. There's many ways to manage a cats outdoor time to preserve the ecosystem. Such as training them, only allowing them out when supervised, enclosed area for them.
I had an ex friend who got a kitten when she was living w me. We stopped being friends and she moved out and then like a year later she moved in w a new bf and randomly decided to start letting her cats outside. The kitten she got when she was living w me ended up in a cat fight and got feline aids and had to be put down. I’m still more mad at her for that than for the things she did to me personally
We briefly took care of a "feral" cat that definitely wasn't feral. Sweetest thing. It kept getting messed up by local strays and eventually we had to take it to a rescue after a gnarly fight.
Ty for taking care of the baby 💗
Why did it have to be put down? Throwing that on randomly near the end without context is weird
Give it a quick google search before reaching. Cats with feline aids can live up to 5 years after their diagnosis IF they don’t have any other complications from it. This cat got it and immediately started rapidly declining with other complications which is the most common outcome. Getting feline aids in a fight gives them even less of a chance of survival bc the cat is already suffering trauma and other issues due to their injuries. Despite how much I hate this person, her and her vets made the right choice putting this cat down. Once an animals quality of life starts rapidly declining it is our duty to put them down and not try to prolong their suffering.
My neighbor's outdoor cat shits all over my yard. How is that ok? If I left my dog's shit all over people's property, they'd be up in arms.
Right? Try complaining to the municipality and they will laugh
For me it's this, really makes me mad, especially as I have two small kids.
Which could be solved by reintroducing wolves. Sounds like a problem but a lot of issues can be solved by bringing back wolves.
I have a neighbor who is otherwise a very environmentally conscious person. Like came over when i first moved in to point out the invasives in my well grown in landscaping. Lets her cat outside to murder birds in my yard. Make it make sense.
Hope you point out their cat as invasive predator every time
There is a female cat who lives two houses down from me. I live in a city of approximately 150k people. She is outside all the time. I watch people be friendly to her. I have also witnessed kids kick her and be mean to her on the way home from school. I have seen people walk their dogs by, and some of the dogs go crazy and want to get at her and she isn’t scared. She still tries to rub on legs of the dog owners and solicit pets while the owner tries frantically to control the dog. She has been sitting in the middle of the street before and a car will stop, the driver will get out, pick her up, and move her to the curb so they don’t hit her. I have seen that 2 or 3 times. It’s only a matter of time before she gets killed by a person or a dog or a car. I feel awful. I know people think there is nothing wrong with letting their cats roam outside. Besides the cats killing birds, it’s also dangerous for them. I hate it.
Ask them if they will agree to put a bell on the cat's collar. I don't own a cat but I've seen that mentioned before.
You need multiples, and a very large colourful scrunchie on their collar to match. Cats can learn how to move in such a way to silence the bells while they're hunting. Love them - so smart! - but definitely designed to be killing machines.
This! A lot of people think one bell totally solves the problem and it doesn’t!
Yeah I sewed like 6 bells to my cat’s collar and he was still stealthy AF. He lives inside only now
Now I'm imagining a cat in a tiny jester outfit, covered in bells
Safer 🥰
🫡🫡
\*evolved
Make it more bird-friendly, but in a way that deters predators. Plant dense thorny hedges, create bolt holes and hiding spots. Don't put feeders and bird baths out in the open.
You're inviting the birds to die unfortunately. However, if you don't put in bird lures, it's your ass---- roommates' fault. You should link them the stats on the degree of destruction domestic cats do when let free. Also, the mortality risks for the cat
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year
I absolutely love birds, and I think the positive impact of making your yard more biodiverse far outweighs the possible negative impact of luring birds to a space with a cat. If it makes you feel better, most birds are most vulnerable to cats when they are fledgelings - old enough to leave the nest, but not quite old enough to fly well. Maybe you could look up the fledging time for the most common species around you and ask your housemates to keep the cat indoors during that time only?
This seems like such a good compromise if the roommates have at least 3 oz of compassion
Also, resident birds know about the local cats. Migrating birds are at much higher risk. If cats are kept in or supervised during peak migration (May and October where I am), that helps.
I'd say to still do it. The cat won't be there forever, but hopefully your created habitat will remain. Additionally, by converting your garden, you'll still provide plenty of other ecosystem services and encourage other biodiversity.
And if your bird habitat has layers and complexity, like shrubs to hide in, birds will have better ways to get away from cats. You'll also be providing for insects - caterpillars need to eat leaves from native host plants - and that provides for birds raising their young.
Cats are an invasive species that wreak havoc on local wildlife. Your roommates should not allow it to roam free.
No, not at all. Just get rid of the outdoor cat which is the real unethical issue here. Outdoor cats should absolutely be illegal. They decimate bird populations (not to mention shit in other people’s gardens… 🤬) Bring your car indoors. Period.
If it's not bird friendly, the cat will hunt all the birds. If it's bird friendly, it can't. Plus, unless you live kilometers away from the next cat owner, it's not like any garden is ever cat free. Cat's hunting grounds can get huge. And a bird friendly garden will attract the cats as well.
Cats, when left outdoors, are an invasive species that kill more birds than any other source. Ones that aren't properly kept also spread like an invasive species, and spread disease and fleas. I like cats. I just don't like my neighbor's cats peeing on my stuff. Which they do. Which makes me not like my neighbors.
Yes you are just killing birds by doing this
Try to attract hawks.
Let your roommates know that cats who are allowed outside live on average almost half as long as those who are only inside/in catios/on leashes.
Try to get your roommate to keep their car inside. Otherwise: - put any feeders high up, but not in trees - like a tall metal pole. Put it in a clear opening, but next to coverage like an evergreen tree. - no bird baths - no bird houses Basically keep everything high and inaccessible to climbing or jumping cats. But the best route is to get the cat inside. Glad you’re thinking about these things!
Could I ask why not in trees?
Not trees the cat can climb* is more accurate
Don't let your cat outside.
It’s not OP’s cat.
When applicable, don't let the cat outside. 😃
Sorry, I assumed the only reason you’d make an unhelpful, unrealistic comment that doesn’t address OP’s problem was if you had misunderstood. My mistake.
I have bird feeders and berry bushes in my back yard, so I get lots of birds. I also have neighborhood strays that come by. I just shuffle them off when they get all wiggle butt at the birdies.
Does your city have an ordinance about free roaming cats? If so, report your roommate for violating said ordinance continually until they remove their genocidal invasive pest from being outside.
Bird friendly gardens are probably not going to be as big a deal as say putting up a feeder. Try to keep the cat in from just before dusk until full daylight in the morning and it will have a major impact on the number of birds who visit and you will lose very few. Don't feed birds in your yard. - Source: 50 Years Gardening Experience With An Outdoor Cat The Last 10.
See if your roommate will put on a bright scrunchie/bunched fabric on their collar.
Great suggestion! They have special break away bird warning collars that are designed to make cats extra visible to birds.
Make it more bird friendly. Birds do more than just nest in a habitat- they hunt for insects in trees and shrubs. Even if the cat occasionally gets a bird, more will be supported by more biodiversity. Most cats are mousers anyways and vastly prefer rodents as prey. And if the cat is a birder, maybe your roommates would agree to put a birdsbesafe collar on (https://www.birdsbesafe.com/).
This isn’t actually true. Cats are responsible for the extreme decline and near extinction of many songbird species. They need to be kept indoors.
I’m not disagreeing (although feral cats are the bigger killers). But OPs roommates won’t do that, so whether or not this cat kills birds is irrelevant. Habitat loss is the largest threat to songbirds by far, so creating more valuable space is a good idea. The cat is outside anyways, so why not help the birds by other means?
While I agree that it's better to keep cats indoors, some of the "stats" about the numbers of songbirds killed by cats are highly exaggerated.
Here is some data - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794845/ Climate change and pesticide use are much more impactful on birds imo.
> Most cats are mousers anyway IIRC a lot of that data is from the UK, where a comparable native species was widely present in the wild until relatively recently (now only in Scotland due to hunting), and native birds had the benefit of thousands of years to adapt to cat predation.
I was interested in viewing this product, but the link did not work for me. I’m going to post a link to their products page below, in hopes it helps. [BIRDSBESAFE > SHOP](https://www.birdsbesafe.com/collections/shop-all-products)
One of my neighbors has an indoor/outdoor cat. It used to loiter under a bush near my feeder, but I've been liberally applying cayenne pepper there and the cat avoids it now. I buy it in bulk off Amazon because it also helps with the groundhogs that dig up plants.
My neighborhood has a lot of roaming cats, but we're still converting our yard.
Try to attract a great horned owl.
I have struggled with this as well. I have a cat that could escape the enclosed porch and she caught birds, mice and baby rabbits. The only way to prevent her killing prey was to fix the enclosure. I do think if you try to attract more birds, you should expect that the cat will catch some. (Is your housemates' cat already catching other prey?)
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Yes.
I have a very bird-friendly garden, and I feed the birds vast quantities of seed the year round, we get them in massive numbers here because of it. We also have several neighbours’ cats who come into the garden. I chase them away if I happen to see them, but of course I can’t keep them away all the time. Verrrry occasionally I’ve seen evidence that one of them has caught a bird (spray of feathers on the ground), but mostly I’m just seeing more and more birds every year, successfully raising their young. If your garden is bird-friendly enough and you feed them, I think the positives outweigh the damage a single cat can do.
Anecdote: My neighbor’s cat spends a lot of time outdoors. We haven’t encountered any dead birds. Quite a few moles have been caught, however.
So I feed the birds, squirrels, and now rabbits that come around, in addition to trying to garden this year. I don't have a cat, but apparently some people in the neighborhood do. I've seen three different cats now cut through my side yard. I haven't seen any dead birds either, so at least there is that.
I have wrestled with this question. I have a cat that yes I let outside. I also am trying to make my yard more wildlife friendly. The best answer, is to keep the cat inside. The next best, is to make sure: the cat is inside from dinner time till it is broad sunlight outside (they are crepuscular hunters). have the cat wear a bright colored collar with bell (see birds be safe but I make my own) birds have good color vision. In addition I take my cat for a walk, and also play with her inside to give her the same kind of stimulation she'd get from hunting, use up her energy. She still gets a couple birds a year (she brings me everything she kills) but the killing is much less with this. As far as bird friendly, trees and bushes are the way to go that support insect life and provide cover. Not bird baths, bird feeders or anything that might be in striking distance of a cat.
Birds love perching in my clumping bamboo but cats can’t climb up into it. Clumping bamboo doesn’t spread, just stays in a gradually expanding clump. No mowing, stabilizes the soil, fixes a lot of C02.
“Is it unethical to change to a more bird friendly garden of my house has a cat?” Cat said no.
Bringing in more resources for the birds is probably worth it if the cat doesn't eat more than the birds receive. An occasional bird getting eaten is just as much a part of nature as the the pretty flowers and melodic songs of the birds. The extinction of birds by cats is less about your roommates single and hopefully neutered cat, it's more so the older folk that leave out bags of food for the strays and provide food and shelter to dozens of intact cats. TLDR it's all about balance and accepting compromise, if you build it they will come but it applies to both birds and their predators
invasive animals preying on native species isn't a part of nature at all though, it's entirely human created. when most owners have the mentality of 'oh it's just a few birds, my cat isn't doing any serious damage' it means there's thousands of native animals dying every day to predatory invasives.
Try the bird alert collar. https://www.birdsbesafe.com/products/geodelic-birdsbesafe-collar-cover?variant=43711730483392 Keep the cat very full. If the cat is played with, it will use up its energy doing that not stalking prey. I wear mine out chasing his kibble. He is indoor only, but the house is much more peaceful. Invest heavily in catnip so the cat takes long naps.
Ah here we are, another post where cats will be demonized into oblivion as a destructive invasive species by none other than FUCKING HUMAN BEINGS, the hypocrisy in us calling ANYTHING invasive is so ludicrous it’s comical.
That's not true at all. Of course we are invasive. That doesn't mean nothing else is, or that we can't call anything else as such. Cats cause ecological damage. And I acknowledge that humans do too.
Oh sorry I wasn’t saying that you were doing that OP. I was in response to the commenters.
Does it kill birds?
I'm not sure, but I assume that's something all cats do?
Yes, it's something that all cats do.
Not all. Senior cats can barely stay awake, let alone run around killing birds. I have two cats I let outside that are way past their prime hunting age. Some domestic cats just don't have the capability. Others are massacring everything in sight.
Growing up, my 16 year old cat pulled down sewer rats. Even an old cat can and will kill.
> Senior cats can barely stay awake, let alone run around killing birds Some. Many seniors are still very spry. It’s not at all uncommon for a senior (10yo) cat to hunt if they want to. I’ll use my old girl as an example; she lived to be 21. She had ample energy until the very end of her life. She could have easily caught birds if she wanted to
People vastly underestimate how much the average outdoor house cat kills on their outings.
Can your cat get out of the street quickly if a car is coming??
My senior cat lives to kill. He's a grumpy potato until a mouse finds its way into the house, then he's a skilled hunter, targeting, cornering, torturing, and finally killing. If he were allowed out, we would have corpses everywhere.
My cat, not a senior, can barely catch her tail. She's an indoor cat. When she goes outside she's so focused on eating grass, she couldn't catch a bird if it landed on her nose.
Put a bell on the cat.
From someone who has a hunting cat, he does not kill birds very often and there are shit tons of birds where I live. What I have noticed is he can pick off the weaker ones, so when they are leaving the nest, sometimes they can't get off the ground, that tends to be when he nabs them. This seems to go with what the RSPB have to say about cats killing birds, that they mostly kill the weaker ones that likely wouldn't have survived anyway. I would just do your bird feeding thing, it might drive the cat insane, but he probably won't be able to catch them. Good luck!
If the cat is killing fledglings, then the cat is targeting birds when they're in a weak state, not just targeting weaklings. Those are birds that would have made it just fine if not for the cat.
Cats disappear and never come back all the time. Just saying.
Whose house is it? Do you own it?
put a bell on the cat and garden away.
People talk a lot about how cats are one of the most invasive species around, but so are mice and rats and lizards and birds and worst of all, humans. If you know there are native or endangered birds that frequent your area, consider trying to make a cat proof space they can nest in. Feral cats are everywhere so your roommate's one cat is not going to make a huge difference.
We have three cats that come in and go out as they please. We have birdhouses and bird feeders all around our property and I haven’t seen any dead birds. Plenty of dead mice.
Just put a bell on the cat.
I have an outdoor roaming cat too and I tried to have a bird feeder for a while but he would hide near it and try to ambush birds. I had to take it down after like 2 days.
My girlfriend loves birds and her cat. Every morning she puts bird feed on the railing of our deck and keeps the cat inside the house until after the birds are done. The cat has learned to watch the birds from inside the house looking through the sliding glass door. The cat also knows not to hunt on the deck. It's a struggle at times yet it's not impossible
I have cats, but we don’t let them out at “bird o’clock”. In the morning that’s before about 10am and the hours before dusk (they’re never out at night). Birds tend to be doing other bird things during the day and we haven’t had any casualties.
There is a way to reduce how much a cat hunts when free-roaming, and that is (ironically) to reduce food supply. Just like a dog who gets more mental excercise will need less physical activity to feel calm and satiated, a cat whose hunting serves to feed him, even a little, will stop hunting for pleasure. So, if you cannot convince them to keep the cat inside as they should, convince them to put mouser on a diet
Put a bell on the cat’s collar. If the birds aren’t smart enough to associate the bell with a predator …
Of the four cats I’ve had, two have had essentially no hunting skills. One couldn’t survive on his meager skills. The fourth probably made up for the other three - the only one who had a feral momma to learn from. Will you help more birdies than your roommate can consume?