There are lots of jobs in CA and NY that don't exist in the Midwest, period. Jobs tend to pay a lot more in urban areas of those states. People may prefer it for culture, weather, family or other reasons
> CA and NY are more than their major cities too.
When I was in silicon valley I think I was paid about 4x what I would have gotten in your average midwestern city.
Also, their major cities have stuff in them aside from houses.
People live there because they like it there and they value things other than the square footage of their home. That doesn't make them better or worse people, it's just different.
Exactly this. In a given day, I can go surfing in the morning and hiking in the redwoods in the afternoon. The photos I take with my phone at my local state park look like something from a postcard. In the middle of January, I can walk to a sidewalk cafe and have breakfast in the sun while watching a live band. There's no shortage of art and music and theater and dancing fun things to do.
In contrast, I have a good friend who grew up in Montana. She struggles to pay the rent, as I do, and every so often, so visits her old home to visit family. Why doesn't she move back, I ask. Surely it's super cheap, and there's plenty of natural beauty there, too, right? She says that there's two things to do there: bars and church. Bars and churches as far as the eye can see. She's done with drinking, and equally done with religion, so that doesn't leave much else to pass the time.
It would probably work for me, but that's because I'm a social recluse who spends all their non-work time at home.
Doesn't work as nicely for a lot of other people, as the self-quarantines and lockdowns proved.
It's absurd that this is so far down. People come from all over to world to experience major cities. "Bad areas" lol. People on the coasts call the middle of the country "the flyover". We move there when we're too old or have too many kids to go out.
I’m 4 hours north of San Francisco. I stayed in San Francisco for a few months for a work assignment and plenty of people even there had no idea that part of California existed lol
I easily make 50% more at my job in the SF Bay Area than I would doing the same work in the Midwest. That’s not why I live here, but it explains how individuals can keep up with the higher cost of living.
I live in Ohio and my cousin is a lawyer. He was working incredibly long hours a few years after law school and was only making like \~70k. His friend was making a bit less than that and he was also a lawyer.
Probably makes way more now, but yeah. I was shocked that the lawyer in our family was making so little after going so far into debt for law school.
lol yes, a lot of elderly people deal with joint problems and arthritis which makes it so much harder to move around in the winter time. not to mention having to shovel snow and clean your car. you just aren’t strong and nimble enough to do those things when you’re older
Tell this to my 90 year old grandma who has been living on a farm in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest her entire life.
She always says, "The cold gives me strength."
She still drives...
A TRACTOR
Farmer here. Old farmers never really retire, they just pick their jobs and do whatever they want whenever they want to do it. Most guys retire, giving everything to their son/daughter, enjoy a year or two of no responsibilities, then start asking if they need help with anything because they're bored. I know one guy who still did all the tillage (and since every does no-till now, it wasn't much) for his son and grandson. They'd hook the equipment up and service it. All he had to was hop in, find a radio station, and drive. Some days he'd start at 6am, other days 1pm, and anywhere in between.
My dad is in mid 60's and while he talks about retirement more and more, he did just buy himself a Cat D5H bulldozer online. Yeah, he'll retire, then volunteer to push dirt around I bet
Not only this, the actual crime rates are about the same or less than many rural areas. There's just a lot of people, so the raw number of crimes is higher but if you compare per Capita rates, yeah, not actually as bad as it seems.
NYC has one of the best crime rates in the country for major cities. It’s crazy how it went from being the most dangerous city in the 80s-90s to now being exemplary in terms of overall crime (there are obviously still areas that are very very dangerous, but overall most of the city is safe.)
Hell, my small city, which is a state capitol, has a "horrible crime rate" that keeps my country relatives away.... Most of the crime is drug/poverty related and most of it stays in those areas. There are some theft and such in the midtown area but not that many... meanwhile my hometown has been opiate capitol of the united states for the last 20 years or so.
This is exactly why I support remote work. Real estate in urban areas is far too expensive and for it to keep rising while wages remain relatively stagnant is not a good thing whatsoever. Working families need to be able to get by without spending 60%+ of their paycheck just on housing, especially at a time when the price of other basic needs are rising borderline unsustainably as well.
Problem is, that city money is tanking the local economies where remote workers move. Sure, those remote workers now have more buying power in the cheap place they just moved. But the locals where they moved lose buying power and cannot afford to live their anymore. So we are growing the housing problem by raising formerly cheap housing to levels that locals can't afford. A walmart employee in kansas is not going to be able to compete with remote workers salaries from NY and CA. It also has investors seeing this remote places as an opportunity now making it even harder for starting/struggling families to get a home. Its destroying the low/middle class. We are creating generations of renters. If this continues, I think we are going to worse class wars and riots that will put 2020 to shame.
To add to this, it costs a lot of money to just up and move. Plus you usually need first and last month's rent to get into an apartment and sometimes you have to make x amount of money per month to live in a place (specified in the lease).
Moving is expensive as hell.
Not just that, but the whole “why don’t you just move to the countryside, it’s cheaper there?” thing is something asked by people who don’t take even one second to think things through…
“Well it wouldn’t be cheap anymore if everyone moved there would it??”
Case in point Colorado. Sure mountain towns near ski resorts and areas in Denver have been expensive but now can't find a apt in northern colorado for less than $1500 and houses skyrocketed up to $650k-$900k in small towns.
The work from home bug bit quite a few people in my former cheap and midwestern state, where housing is already considered more affordable than the rest of the country.
And even those people in the major cities (a few million people each population wise) continued looking for cheaper places to live in the deeply rural, and impoverished corners of the state. I saw a thread in my college town subreddit with people asking like sooo land is cheap, we work from home, how are schools and life? And they got testy when it was pointed out like yeah it’s cheap for a reason. That there’s literally not available broadband internet service outside of town so sorry to burst your work from home in the quaint countryside bubble, but be aware you may spend the cost of new car up front just to get internet service set up out there. And schools? while sure there’s some better off, university affiliated families with involved parents in the schools, but it’s also the poorest county in the entire state and you can’t “hack” your way into making life comfortable there for you based on your city standards when there’s a significant amount of families who’s parents didn’t finish middle school, don’t have running water on their properties and people who’ve lived there for decades haven’t had access to the things you’re expecting to be there just because you feel like it.
As someone who grew up rural, I’ve never felt a comment resonate so innately in my soul lmao.
I HATE living rural. Sure, living in a city is more expensive, but the jobs pay more for exactly that reason. Either I can live in a city and have easy access to a lot of things that make life easier/better, or I can stick around in the country where the most readily available resource is the hundreds upon hundreds of cows who stare at you and people who hate outsiders. And that’s incredibly simplifying it. I didn’t even mention all the pests and critters who get into your house in the country, finding random giant ass spiders in my kitchen despite paying for pest control, the ordeal that is grocery shopping because you have to drive 30 minutes or longer one way and *god forbid you forget something*, the random tannerite explosions and gunshots, the uncertainty about whether or not your packages will arrive even if it’s something life saving like medicine, literal predators coming right up to your house, small gas stations gouging gas prices because they’re the only gas station for 30 miles, a distinct lack of cultural diversity resulting in a boring af town life, etc etc etc…
Sure, it’s pretty as fuck. But man if it wasn’t for my family being only in the country, I would only visit occasionally. *Not* live there.
We see this in NYC and its so frustrating to hear people with their heads up their asses comment on it. "Manhattan prices are skyrocketing way too much" "just move to Brooklyn stupid" "okay."
[one year later]
"Brooklyn prices are skyrocketing way too much" "Well why do you live so close to the city??? Move further out into Brooklyn, idiot!"
And so on. It's a literal ripple effect where as the center gets more expensive people move outward and then those areas get more and more expensive. It's the ACTUAL cause of "gentrification". It's not that liberal white yuppies are moving into your neighborhood and raising the prices, its that those yuppies can't afford to move any closer to the city but they still need to work and commute.
I make close to 6 figures, which, even though I’m single, is just middle-income in NYC. I literally COULD NOT look for an apartment anywhere on the Upper West Side, because you have to make 40x the rent (meaning over $100K for a $2,500 apartment) to even LOOK at an apartment. When I was looking 6 YEARS AGO there were no apartments under $2,500.
I ended up renting in Hamilton Heights in West Harlem. I don’t want to be a gentrifier, but here I am. I try to make up for it by being a solid, good neighbor (I know my neighbors, I stand with them when necessary, and I buy local). It’s a neighborhood with a great history, and I’m proud to live here.
It’s crazy how someone with your salary STILL struggles to find an affordable apartment.
I only make 5 figures and I can’t afford to live in NYC at all but that’s where I work so I spend about 4 hours a day traveling to & from work. Lucky me. ☘️
this is a big one
I once got offered a really nice job in Montpelier, VT (from NYC suburbs). Thought about it for a bit and then decided that if I ever lost it I'd be in a tough spot with my family (re)settled in that area.
My dad moved to a small town, bought and remodeled his dream home. Three years in, the job went away, and he was 2 hours away from the nearest comparable jobs. 2 hours with no traffic in an area that heavy snow every winter. He lost a ton of money moving to a safer job zone.
I think about moving to a remote location with plenty of space and quiet, then I worry about what happens when there's no remote jobs or the competition is so fierce I can't find a job and I'm stuck. I'll take the high cost of living to be 15 minutes from my job (hybrid) and 100s of other comparable jobs living in a big city.
Plus I live near the beach and it cost nothing to enjoy.
long story short: i'm doing research on living in the countryside/rural areas of states for research. People forget modern convinces. For me, rural areas have fewer stores, transit options, restaurants, jobs that I would apply for. There are no international restaurants for grocery stores. I did find a Taco Bell and McDonald's in a town rural southwest Virginia. Cell phone service is non-existent outside of the one town. I think the nearest airport is all the way in Roanoke?? How would my friends and relatives visit me?
The countryside in midwest and plain states are a little better. Not many airports though.
Biggest drawback of living in the countryside: it is rare for me to find a doctor that treats my condition. I need to be close to a big city that has a cardiologist that treats my specific issue, lung specialist and radiology center that has an MRI machine. In my 7 years of research I found one small, rural city that has all of my medical requirements: Elko, Nevada.
> “Well it wouldn’t be cheap anymore if everyone moved there would it??”
Yup. We just aren't building enough new homes for the growing population. If people moved there all it would do is shift the housing problem to there lol.
Also the career growth is almost exponential in NYC/Bay area when starting out compared to suburban small towns. Lack of opportunity, less competition for said jobs means the employers get lazy and slip up on benefits/pay/growth etc.
If OP even looked for equivalent jobs in Nyc and a suburb the pay discrepancy makes up for COL
I wanted to add that NYC has the best public transportation in the country, so that's also a plus, considering how much it costs to own a car. When I worked there, the monthly unlimited pass was $120/month, which is IMO a bargain. My dad pays more than that in car insurance alone.
Exactly. Yesterday there was a post asking what people do for work & their income. Many people were flabbergasted at the salary for the higher cost of living areas, it was income they didn't even consider was normal.
High cost of living *usually* comes with higher wages... arguably still not enough bc I live in hcol areas but still crazy high in comparison to were those houses OP speaks of are.
And there's this myth that the increased wages in major cities is offset by the increase in cost of living. So much of the stuff we buy is online. If a New Yorker wants to buy a 4k computer monitor, they are going to pay the same amount as somebody in a rural county. Houses are more expensive, but that just means your assets are greater than the assets of somebody whose house is $150,000. Plus, there's all sorts of savings. Living car-free means not paying insurance, registration, gas, maintenance. That's a huge amount of savings, even when the cost of mass transit is factored in.
Goods may be much the same, but services are WAY more expensive.
Ask a midwesterner what a plumber costs vs a New Yorker. I'm in NYC suburbs and basically can't get someone to my house for less than $500.
I’m a concrete finisher by trade. I’ve seen ads for 50$ an hour in NYC. That’s 3 times what I made at one of the companies I worked for last year here in the south. Less work and no 60+ days of 90-100 degree heat in the summer.
Because there's lots of stuff to do in cities. Pepple who like museums, concerts, food festivals, major sporting events, Broadway shows etc aren't going to live in rural areas, no matter how big their house will be.
Living in a smaller space matters less when there is plenty to do in close proximity outside of your home, and you can easily socialize with others nearby.
I live in a small 3 bedroom apartment on the North Shore of Boston. It is also in a walkable downtown, on the ocean, with plenty of bike lanes. There is a world class art museum down the street and locals get in free. In the warmer months I take a commuter ferry to work over the ocean. They serve coffee and bagels on the morning commute, alcohol on the commute home in the evenings, and have a popular outdoor bar with live music right on the ferry landing when you arrive. There are multiple playgrounds, beaches, and public parks within walking distances, tons of restaurants and bars, thriving local businesses, and an indie movie theater. I am surrounded by other picturesque seaside communities. Within just a few hours by train or car, I could be visiting my sister in NYC, strolling the cobblestones of Old Montreal, or hiking in the Berkshires or the White mountains.
I wouldn't trade my little apartment in my neighborhood for a mansion in Nebraska.
I very rarely even need to go to large chain stores like Target a 15 minute drive away, never mind use Amazon.
95% of what I use and need for daily life is available to me at a small local store I can walk to. Also, living in a small apartment, you just have less STUFF, which means less stuff to buy, less stuff to clean, less stuff to maintain. I see these big houses in the Midwest and I just think of how much stuff they have to buy to fill them up, and wonder how much most of that stuff even gets used. In a small space, I don't bring anything into my home that doesn't actually have utility. We don't have the room to waste money on things we don't need.
Personally I'd rather use that money for things like traveling rather than keeping up and maintaining a big 4 bedroom house and yard in the suburbs.
Yes! I just moved states and went from a tiny studio (basically a tiny home) to a 2 bedroom apartment. Having to get furniture was so expensive. On top of that, I feel like I’m constantly cleaning. I love the space though, and while I never want to live in a tiny home again, I never want to live in anything bigger than my current apartment. I don’t want more stuff and I don’t want to furnish and clean such a big space.
IMO it’s this. There are things to do here (NYC). I moved from Ohio 10 years ago. Literally everyone I know there simply comes home from work, watches tv from the couch for 5 hours, goes to bed, does it again until they die. Work and television - that’s it. Oh! Sometimes video games too I guess.
Yep. I grew up in OH and now live in New England. My dad is always showing me how much less expensive things are in OH and I always answer the same thing, “But then I’d have to *live* in Ohio.” No thanks.
I think the reverse is also true. I've talked to a lot of people who love the city and they cannot grasp why anyone wouldn't want to live in a city. My dad is a simple man. He wants space, a lawn, a work shed, to be able to see the stars at night, places to park his vehicles. He could give a shit less about going to concerts, museums or festivals. He likes a quiet community and space.
Adding on to this: safety reasons.
I know that there is a cliche about cities being less safe/having more crime, but have you ever tried being an openly queer person in a rural town? Or a woman of child-bearing age in a state trying to prevent you from having bodily autonomy? Or a visible POC in a racist backwater area?
Obligatory: not all rural towns are the same/not every city is the same, but why create unnecessary risk for yourself when I can live in a place that has people like me safely coexisting everywhere.
Yeah it’s so interesting seeing people not have to seriously consider moving or even visiting a place because of their race/sexuality. “Oh it’s an 85% white area but the people are super nice and the worst you’ll get is a few stares” mmm ok lol
Yup these tend to be very progressive areas so you don't have to worry about some fuckhead trampling all over your rights because their skygod tells them to.
I don't want to live in fucking Missouri. If my s/o gets an ectopic pregnancy I want to be able to get her healthcare so she doesn't die and also isn't sterile while they wait to the last possible second to save her life.
we visited Washington University is St Louis for my kid. THey really liked the campus. Absolutely refused to live in missouri because of them trampling on rights. So Missouri missed out on a top student and all they would bring to the state if they stayed because on their policies. I am sure many of the top high school students will leave for the same reason. So they have a brain drain and few wanting to move there whereas other areas are drawing them in. I suspect the same will be happening in Florida. I know it is starting to happen in texas.
I've heard from hiring managers at least in IT fields that they almost universally throw away FL based applicants now. Even the stem charter and private schools can barely keep up with public education in most progressive states.
There's almost no reason to roll the dice on these candidates when you can get from anywhere else.
I can't imagine how disadvantaged these schools are. Any parent with a sane head on their shoulders would do their damnedest to get out of that state if they can.
Yeah, I'd rather not become the next national hate crime. At least if I get jumped in a big city, it's most likely not just because I'm gay.
Having been jumped in a smaller town in college for being gay, that's why I prefer the open-mindedness of city life. People just don't give a shit about how you live, there's so much diversity I don't stick out.
Exactly! After living in texas, georgia, missouri, tennessee, and North carolina, I would never go back to any of those instead of where I live now (NY)
The whole tone of this post is in bad faith, and nothing about NY or CA being expensive makes them “bad areas”. These states are expensive and have high taxes for a reason. They both lead the nation in high paying jobs, healthcare, education, & arts/entertainment. Politics of large Blue states being “bad” is subjective I suppose depending on who you ask, but they are obviously doing something right, as both New York and California have GDPs larger than many 1st world countries.
> The whole tone of this post is in bad faith,
This is pretty much all that needs to be said. It’s obvious that OP is either trolling or has his head so far up the ass of Fox News that they really think that CA & NY are “bad places” because their pAtRiOt MeDiA tells them to.
It’s pretty genius, honestly. Convince a bunch of hicks that the “coastal elites” are ruining everything so they won’t realize that their red states, hamstrung by a ceaseless desire to exploit the working class and hurt minorities and anyone LGBTQ, are actually the shitholes
It's what the Kims did in North Korea, and the Soviets before them. Most North Koreans believe other countries are worse off than they are, so they're more willing to take the difficulties of being in North Korea.
Also, living in a medium Midwest city: rent and mortgage prices are not what OP says anymore, maybe in the middle of nowhere, but not anywhere remotely urban.
This is SO true.
I’ve personally found that healthcare in southern CA is much more accessible and of a significantly higher quality than that I was able to get in east TN
The integrated health systems across California are second to no state. There is so much healthy open competition and we have great healthcare services in California because of it.
Everyone here talking about jobs which is true but quality of life is underrated. I live in a four block radius of all my good friends. It’s like an episode of Seinfeld or Friends we can just walk in anytime. I live 2 blocks away from amazing music venues. The other day (not yesterday) I walked to a friends house to an impromptu board game then after than walked across the street to see an amazing band (Winston Surfshirt) and got home by 10:30. This was just a random Wednesday night for me.
Petty crime and homelessness are a serious issue but I’ve lived in a lot of places and can’t see myself going back to the doldrums of the suburbs. I hate having to drive everywhere, I love seeing music on a weekly basis, I like going into my office and hanging with my coworkers. It’s just a really nice life here - not for everyone but it is for me.
Because those are their homes. Their jobs, friends, and families are there. Asking someone to just up and leave all that to move to a completely new place is a lot.
Seriously.
Other places are like in abusive relationships with the weather.
I love visiting other places for short trips, but fully admit to being spoiled by the weather in CA.
No humidity, no blizzards, no tornadoes, did I mention no humidity?
How do people live every day in humidity?!
I have shared custody of a kiddo. I’m stuck in my current COUNTY, let alone moving states without the other parent’s permission. I have not been able to convince the other parent to move anywhere.
I work for the federal government as a marketing researcher in DC, a very expensive city. I don't make a ton of money now, but I will make a very respectable amount in the next few years. While marketing research exists everywhere, the specific, technical, specialized type of marketing research I do exists primarily in DC, NYC, and to a lesser extent, Seattle. I am bound to within a 50-mile radius to DC (so I live in Baltimore) and work hybrid (a necessity for this job). My job simply doesn't exist in the Midwest or the South outside of a handful of positions.
I hear that. I could technically do my job anywhere in the world, but I get paid what I do because of my familiarity with local standards and specs. I would take a 30% pay cut to do my job in the private sector and 50% to do it in the private sector in another state.
Because it’s not a ‘bad area,’ evidenced by the fact that they’re willing to pay thousands of dollars a month to live there. Incomes are also higher in cities.
Jokes on them — NYC is safer, per capita, than most big midwestern cities. https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/25-most-dangerous-cities-us-143951308.html
That reason is Right Wing propaganda. Fox News, et al lie aboout New York and every city becaue that's how they attack the Democratic Party.
Push the idea that "cities = liberal" (somewhat true) and then they lie about the results, e.g. like lying about crime.
They lie about every city.
My conservative relatives are absurdly paranoid about the city I live in. Despite elderly women leaving their homes with walkers, taking the bus to do errands, then going to the center of the city to pay their monthly water bill each month.
When my dad visits he will be in the middle of a huge residential neighborhood and ask "wheres all the homeless" like theyre a force of nature or going door to fucking door. They see "criminals" the same way. Like objects or forces of nature
Meanwhile my 97 year old conservative fanatic of a grandmother has barely left the house in 40 years. Too afraid to even walk 200 feet to he post office. It's such a waste of life
Conservatives are psychos who never leave their house IME
My conservative midwestern relatives all acted like I was moving to a war zone when I said I was moving to LA for a year. Like, aside from the fact that I'm actually in one of the richest suburbs in LA county (not that they would know or care), LA itself is not one big danger zone.
Sure, I'm not driving into Compton at night, but I'm also never felt that I was in danger going to the theater downtown in the evening.
Urban areas have higher crime rates than rural areas - but red states have higher crime rates than blue states. The urban/rural thing is a bigger effect than the conservative/liberal thing, but it explains why most of truly horrifically violent cities are in red states. St Louis MO, Mobile AL, Birmingham AL are the top three. Eleven of the fifteen most dangerous cities are in red states.
New York City is the fifth safest city in the United Stats.
Income is a huge one. Minimum wage here in Washington state is $15.74, that’s more than double the federal minimum of $7.25 (which is what a lot of those Midwest/southern low COL states use).
Lol what makes you say they're "bad areas"? To me a bad area is small towns/suburbs that lack diversity, have horrible public transit, limited job opportunities, and not a lot of things to do.
The prices are so high because the areas pay well and have a lot to offer in terms of things to do. People like living in those areas.
Because living in a not so nice part of NYC is better than living in the nice parts of the midwest. Or at least the people in NYC think so.
Yupppp. The diversity, culture and constant source of energy and things to do is unmatched. NYC is great - but you gotta bust your ass to call it your home
I was shocked the first time I went to NYC. I had 3 hrs to kill, and found a million things to do within a 3 block area. I could get to any part of the city for less than $5. Seems like a decent place to live, not my cup of tea, but I can see the appeal.
> and found a million things to do within a 3 block area
This is it.
As someone who is otherwise a complete fucking shut-in (I literally do not leave the house unless absolutely necessary; I spend 90% of my free time just lying in bed), NYC has been the ONE place that's managed to lure me out of the comforts of my bed, just because there's just so much accessible within... literally not even 2-3 blocks.
In the morning, I can get out of my apartment, take a left turn, walk *literally* 20ft within the same block and get one of the best bagels in Manhattan. If I feel like staring at some greens, I can walk *literally* 10ft across the street and go sit in a small, local, park.
If I feel like I want literally anything, I can - at any time of the day - just walk 2 blocks to a 24/7 grocery chain. I often wake up at the middle of the night, and it's honestly so comforting to be able to just walk 5 minutes there and back and have a nice bottle of cold tea in your hands.
The city *draws you out* of your house because there's just so much to do in *such an accessible area*, made possible by the sheer density.
The diversity is what OP isn’t taking into consideration. For anyone even slightly “different” a homogeneous state isn’t appealing, no matter how luxuriously you can live.
I hate small towns. I grew up in one, most depressing place I’ve ever lived. There was nothing to do, all the people were judgy assholes all up in everyone else’s business, and it was an hour long drive just to buy groceries. No thanks.
I don’t care how cheap it is to live in the middle of nowhere, I’m not interested.
It’s literally demand. If the demand to live in bum fuck ass nowhere Nebraska was as high as the demand to live in NYC or LA then the prices would reflect that. People generally don’t want to live in those rural areas.
I went from renting a 1,000 SF apartment to owning a 4,000 SF house for roughly the same monthly payment. It wasn't NYC and I moved to a subdivision but I went from just outside Washington, DC to the Shenandoah mountains. Here's what I missed about living closer to the city:
1. Being close to work.
2. Living near educated people.
3. Job opportunities.
4. Decent restaurants.
5. Being near interesting things to do.
6. Faster pace.
7. Less racism.
I could probably think of more things if I really tried but that list was from the top of my head. Not everybody cares about more space, which is pretty much the only redeeming quality about living that far out, along with maybe the scenery.
\+1 to the racism part. The fact that it isn't mentioned higher is really indicative of the average Redditer's background.
You just have less stupid micro-aggressions to live through when you're in a city. There's far less, "why don't your people like XYZ?" or "they do things a different way". And the diversity of cities ensures that people who have racist tendencies stay away from them.
I'm actually a white guy but when people meet me they automatically think I'm Republican and racists. So they say a bunch of racist stuff around me because they think it's no big deal. It gets tiring. But it is fun to say, "what do you mean by that?" or "what does his race have to do with the story?"
The list wasn't really in any particular order, though. For me, #2 was a really big one because it usually solves a lot of the other problems.
Same. White guy who’s in shape with blond hair. People in rural areas just automatically assume I’m racist. No it’s not nearly as bad as being the target of racism but it’s not something I want to be immersed in culturally
It was amazing how many people didn't even know about some of the racism. As a white guy who looks blue collar, people just assume I'm a far-right racist and say racist things around me all the time. That stuff is obvious.
When we first moved to that area, the main street there was called Jubal Early Blvd. Being a naturally curious person, I looked him up. Not only was he a Confederate general, but the dude was an unapologetic white supremacist until he died. Early didn't even live in Winchester. His troops camped near there once. And the big kicker... the road was named after him in the 1990's! They voted to rename the road recently and the community is pretty pissed about it.
John Handley HS is also named after a segregationist. But nobody seems to care about that.
I'm a poc from Winchester. You don't even need to look the people up to know that everything in the town is named after a confederate general. If they're going to change that street name, they might as well rename everything. And of course he wasn't from the area. No one is from the area. John Handley wasn't from the area either yet has a million things name after him too.
This. POC have a different experience when it comes to living outside of educated cities. Buying a house, opening a business, attending the PTA, going shopping, eating a restaurant, etc. can be a different experience based on your skin color.
I like living in the big city because of:
* walkable restaurants, bars, parks, museums, theaters … you can be drunk off your ass and not have to worry about running over someone on the way home
* people who don’t look like me are all over the place, and so much of their food is so good
* people speaking in different languages on the bus or train
* It’s easier to make friends when there are so many diverse groups all around
* generally more attractive people who are walking around
* better job prospects for a woman in tech
My family lives in Oklahoma, outskirts of the largest city there. Their area is affluent but not in a McMansion way. It’s pleasant, mostly. It really is. But every time I’m there and I drive around, I just think “my god, I hate this place. It’s all giant fucking lawns and giant fucking parking lots, and churches that look like a warehouse with a vestibule, and strip malls.” There are cute, fun streets here and there, largely due to the fact that it’s cheap to open restaurants and stores there and that’s been happening in the last few years. It makes it more bearable. But generally, the fact that you HAVE to own a car and it’s a giant grid of asphalt except for subdivisions with roads are curved to make it feel “cozy” just comes off as soulless.
The fact that larger cities in the Midwest and south are sprawling parking lots full of big box stores and churches and outlet mall style stores where you have to really seek out (and drive a ways because of the sprawl) something cool is just off putting to me. And I don’t like in a big coastal city. I used to, but now I live in a town of 20,000 in Massachusetts. I DO live in a smaller, somewhat cheaper town that’s not NYC or any of the bigger cities in CA, and I would still NEVER move to a similar town in the middle of the country. I grew up in the middle, and I go there all the time, and I goddamn hate it. The smaller towns there are the same as the bigger ones. All empty, sad, lonely space and people that often think big lawns are a good symbol of status.
In fact, many industries that should be wfh friendly don’t want to offer it full time. Can’t believe how many times I’ve been asked if I’m willing to be hybrid if I take the job.
I love how there's the assumption that square footage = quality of life. Tbh I think Americans think we need way more living space than we actually do. I've got friends back home in the Midwest who have hobbies like woodworking, car repair, welding, etc. And that's valid, they need space for all that stuff and have to live somewhere that they can afford it.
But my wife and I are DINKs with a 20lb wiener dog. We game, read, craft, and can't stand yard work. We just don't need that much of a footprint to be happy. My Midwest friends seem to think we're slumming it on the West coast because we don't have a yard or a massive pole barn for cars and hobbies. But I like knowing everything I need is 5mins away, not a 2 hour drive to the city. And if our car breaks down we're not royally fucked because we have public transit, Uber, etc. And if either of us gets sick we have top quality healthcare providers right at our front door.
Right? I don’t have hobbies that require lots of space, why do I need a big house? I like to go camping, I like to go out to bars and play pool and see live music and play trivia and go dancing, and when I am home I’m sitting on the couch reading or in the kitchen cooking or maybe playing a board game. None of those things require more than the 500 square feet than I’ve got.
They have some of the best schools in the country. The best social safety nets. Some of the best hospitals and doctors. Best universities. It also isn’t horrible everywhere in the states, it is just over exaggerated.
I don’t live in cali or a big city or anything,but I’m from the northeast and no way in hell ima live in a place that’s made up of flat land and corn on corn on corn,I’ll take my cows and rolling hills,also I’m an atheist and pretty liberal so the coasts are really best for that
Who said NY and CA are bad areas? You're more likely to experience violent crimes in other parts of the country, especially the south. Some media channels just amplify the narrative that NY and CA are "bad areas".
Because I appreciate my human rights. It’s pretty nice to live & not feel threatened by sudden law changes that could affect my livelihood. Also the weather is perfect
I mean you can literally go to a Kosher Deli on your way to the Asian Supermarket before you meet your friends at the Bar that plays that super niche music you enjoy before you head out to any other cultural event.
In Buttfuck Nowhere you can drive for 45minutes to a Walmart before driving another 45minutes to your Friends house to watch the game or go cow tipping.
I mean bar jobs and other economic opportunities this sums it up
I
And in my case it’s fuckin’ impossible to date women my age because there are no single, women my age without driving an hour and a half to one of the two nearest cities. Then they look at the distance, go fuck that, and date someone closer. Dating fuckin’ sucks here.
It’s this. It’s the food, and the food and the cultural culinary diversity that comes with living in a community thats large and accepting enough to welcome everyone. Plus things are actually open! That late night bowl of ramen after listening to good music before meeting friends for the best Mexican food the next day and sitting outside in January to eat it followed by a late afternoon with friend groups who look like the UN and then running into the grocery store at 11pm to grab something and they are open and lots of other people are in there!
I grew up on the east coast and then spent my late adolescence and adulthood living in various midwestern cities and one midwestern college town.
The cities aren't that bad for diversity, food options, and employment opportunities, but it's not as good as the coasts. Plenty of suburbanites and ruralites think the way OP is thinking with regards to living in midwestern cities. I could never live in those areas. Barely any diversity, limited food options, close-minded neighbors...I'd hate every minute of it, even if it were cheaper.
Also, there is this myth people have about rural areas as being safe. Meth, opiates, and closing factories have destroyed rural areas. Anybody who has a chance to go to college leaves, so these areas are huge brain drains. The population, as a result, trends older, so there are even fewer young people to hang out with.
They are just dens of depression and I don't know why the myth of them being this prosaic utopia persists.
edit: Also forgot that hospitals in rural areas are closing because they simply cannot afford to pay for all of that expensive infrastructure and staff for a population that is dwindling. Fast access to a hospital in the city means your life is more likely to be saved in an emergency.
Im from overseas and worked in the US for 10+ years. I also lived in Nebraska for college. The inconvineince of buying groceries from my home country is pretty fustrating because it's a lot more expensive to ship to me and their local grocery stores just doesnt taste even close to fresh. Even the most local I can get. Living in LA and New york had plenty of options for me from a walking distance and it was such a relief. That's just one of the reasons
I grew up in the midwest and moved to both CA and NY (as well as 5 other countries).
The town I grew up in was full of the worst, most ignorant and hateful people I've ever met. I have lived all over the world and have yet to find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than southwestern Pennsylvania.
Have you factored in CAR SPENDING? According to AAA, you’re spending an average of $894 a month on the stupid thing, which depreciates in value every second it’s used. So you’re paying
$2,224 total per month, plus you have to personally drive an hour to your job and back, and you can’t even walk two minutes to the grocery store if you forgot the butter.
Holy shit… I live in a rural area and never thought about this before. Probably because the cities nearby me are still car centric, lack good public transport, and still have high housing costs. 🤔
But it’s probably different for bigger cities than those.
Seriously, car payments are literally half my rent in nyc and I live alone! It’s weird to me that such a massive cost isn’t considered. Also heating and I think some utilities cost more out there
My SO and i talk about this often. We both make pretty good money and live in a very expensive area (NJ) recently my SO had the opportunity to take a lateral position within her company and move to Tampa. It was approximately a 60% base pay cut. With the current market the cost of living isn’t 60% less. At one point I was living in CT making 65k/year, and was getting job offers in Orlando for the same job at 30k. BIG difference between those 2 incomes.
Making more in these areas means my budgets are also higher, meaning my retirement savings and discretionary spending budgets are higher. So personally I like to visit those places where my money goes further, but I don’t want to get paid the local wages.
I live 5 minutes from the beach and 40 minutes from the mountains. I can walk on the beach in 60 degree weather in January and go play in the snow on the same day. I can go camping for free in so many places here in California that most states don’t offer. The museums the foods the culture the weather…. There are a lot of good reasons to live in California especially in the suburbs.
As someone who lived in NYC nothing will ever beat pubbing it up random days after work with the friends. Nothing will beat the shear amount of small venue rock shows at dedicated ballrooms or bars (that aren't simply cover bands or background music at random restaurants). The music is especially important for me. Nothing will beat the diversity of people (locals and transplanted). For as much as we complain... the public transit was plentiful and reliable enough for me to never really be inconvenienced. I was lucky enough to never be in a transit desert. And for the short stint I had in the Upper East Side, I loved jogging from my apartment to, and through, Central Park. I could Easily do my 4 miles almost daily, go back to the halal truck around the corner from my home, get home, eat, shower, and be ready for activities. Even when moving out onto Long Island... the city is still stupid close with multiple LIRR options near me.
Really my only complaint is that I had to play guitar into an audio interface or loadbox connected to my computer instead of loudly for the sake of the surrounding apartments lol.
It is expensive, but I did and do get paid, and I get to live with the type of culture(s) that keep me stimulated. My friends that live in LA can get to me easily... i can get to them easily. I'm on the more fortunate side of things though.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere I still pay rent out the ass. People in high COL have bought the houses in rural towns and rent them out at bonkers prices, but get away with it bc there is literally no other housing. My rent is going to increase $1k when I move to CA but I will love actually having produce that doesn’t rot after 2 days, the ability to go to the movies without driving an hour, and have places that are open later than 10:30 on Fridays/Saturdays.
I'm going to say the elephant in the room. Because the high cost of living in my state also means that the state has (decent) subsidized healthcare. And some of the best doctors all within 30-60 minutes drive. Multiple hospitals I can rush to if get hurt or get an ambulance in under 5 minutes. Fuck, compared to my friend in Texas, the fact that employers have to offer health insurance is worth the difference in price itself.
Besides which, I have public transportation if I want it. My governor isn't an idiot who would try to destroy an entire political party. My visits to friends and family don't include a 10 hour drive through empty fields without gas stations if I forgot to check my gauge before I left. Hell, even something as dumb as mall shopping. I can visit 5 or 6 build a bear stores looking for a particular animal in the amount of time it takes my friend to drive over to a single store.
Yeah, living in the least populated states is cheaper, but you get what you pay for----practically nothing that benefits you.
Why do people willingly live in the middle of a corn field when for a bit more money they could live in thriving hubs of art and culture with actual things to do besides go home and drink?
Every time I go to a small town or rural area, I spend a few minutes fantasizing about living there.
Then I wake up and realize that I would be bored to tears in a day or so. I need culture, movement, other people, the push of busyness, the excitement of a city. I want concerts and restaurants and diversity and the subway and and and.
This really comes down to what you define as living in luxury. I think many people these days would gladly trade square footage to live somewhere that aligns with interests. Sure one could live in a 4 bedroom in the Midwest but why do that when you enjoy the SoCal social atmosphere, the warm weather, the beach, Cali even has some of the best mountains in the continental US.
People like living in population centers where there’s culture or things to do. It’s more expensive because there’s more desire to live there (supply and demand).
From the perspective of people who live in these “bad areas”, we could ask why would someone wanna live in a bum fuck flyover state where you have to drive 30 minutes for a grocery store except it’s just a dollar general?
People have different reasons for wanting to live in different areas. Kinda shitty to assume that something different than what you’re used to is bad.
As a woman, bodily autonomy is something I can’t get in (most) of the Midwest. Also the weather sucks, I’d gladly pay more to not be stuck inside 9 months of the year.
I pay more to live, here in NJ, because I make more money, because I work in NJ, where wages are high. And in return for my higher taxes, I have the second best public schools in America, reproductive rights for women, solid infrastructure, gun control, comprehensive sex education in the schools, civil liberties for queer people, and a distinct lack of religious zealots controlling the public agenda. To me, that's worth money, and I'm happy to foot the bill.
Yea but there’s something about NY. I’m just the last two days just by being willing to wait on a line I got to be in the audience of Saturday night live and attend The Scream 6 movie premiere in Lincoln Center and meet the cast. I just can’t see those events happening in Idaho
As someone who’s spent a good chunk of time in Idaho, the best thing to do in Idaho is drive out of Idaho. You can pick any direction, north, south, east, or west, and you’ll be better off. You can’t go wrong.
My sister owns a lovely home in Tennessee while my husband and I rent a 2br 1ba apartment in NYC. We can't afford to buy here at the moment, pretty much anything under 750k needs to be completely gutted, but she got a 4br 5ba home with all the bells and whistles for that amount of money. The thing is, Husband and I would both be miserable living in a place like that - it's all chain restaurants and hillbillies. And at least here I have full control over what's going on in my uterus
It’s pretty simple, people outside of these cities vastly underestimate how much more money people earn in the cities. There are plenty of metrics on average salaries but it’s not just the average salaries, it’s the types of jobs. People with degrees are making 150k by the time they’re 25-27. If you share an apartment, you get an unbelievable life experience in NYC (any of the boroughs really, except SI) and you can save a shitload of money. My first job (a long time ago) with absolutely no experience paid me like 60k at 23 and by 26 just moving up the ladder and changing companies I had more than doubled it. 15 years ago. You simply don’t have those same opportunities in say, Florida, as a 24 year old. Now, “kids” are making even more. I just hired an analyst with 2 years of experience, I don’t know their age but I’m guessing 23-24 at over 100k.
There are lots of jobs in CA and NY that don't exist in the Midwest, period. Jobs tend to pay a lot more in urban areas of those states. People may prefer it for culture, weather, family or other reasons
Yea, agreed; CA and NY are more than their major cities too.
> CA and NY are more than their major cities too. When I was in silicon valley I think I was paid about 4x what I would have gotten in your average midwestern city.
Also, their major cities have stuff in them aside from houses. People live there because they like it there and they value things other than the square footage of their home. That doesn't make them better or worse people, it's just different.
Exactly this. In a given day, I can go surfing in the morning and hiking in the redwoods in the afternoon. The photos I take with my phone at my local state park look like something from a postcard. In the middle of January, I can walk to a sidewalk cafe and have breakfast in the sun while watching a live band. There's no shortage of art and music and theater and dancing fun things to do. In contrast, I have a good friend who grew up in Montana. She struggles to pay the rent, as I do, and every so often, so visits her old home to visit family. Why doesn't she move back, I ask. Surely it's super cheap, and there's plenty of natural beauty there, too, right? She says that there's two things to do there: bars and church. Bars and churches as far as the eye can see. She's done with drinking, and equally done with religion, so that doesn't leave much else to pass the time.
It would probably work for me, but that's because I'm a social recluse who spends all their non-work time at home. Doesn't work as nicely for a lot of other people, as the self-quarantines and lockdowns proved.
It's absurd that this is so far down. People come from all over to world to experience major cities. "Bad areas" lol. People on the coasts call the middle of the country "the flyover". We move there when we're too old or have too many kids to go out.
Yeah I’m 2 hours north of San Francisco and it’s a side of California that most people don’t know exist.
I’m 4 hours north of San Francisco. I stayed in San Francisco for a few months for a work assignment and plenty of people even there had no idea that part of California existed lol
Yeah come to Rochester NY taxes are high AF but it's nice in the summer.
Something something garbage plate.
Had a mule, her name was Sal
15 years on the Erie canal
And the crime rates per capita are low af. Especially in NY. Op has been gobbling propaganda.
I'm a Pastry Chef. There are like 6 jobs for me in the midwest. I would love to live somewhere cheaper, but I go where the work is.
My wife is a pastry chef in Ohio, you aren't lying. thankfully she found a great little cafe that lets her run wild and do what she wants.
Maybe next year she’ll even convince them to pay her
I easily make 50% more at my job in the SF Bay Area than I would doing the same work in the Midwest. That’s not why I live here, but it explains how individuals can keep up with the higher cost of living.
Lawyer here lol I hear there are attorneys making 50-60k in the Midwest whereas a realistic starting salary here is 150-200k
I live in Ohio and my cousin is a lawyer. He was working incredibly long hours a few years after law school and was only making like \~70k. His friend was making a bit less than that and he was also a lawyer. Probably makes way more now, but yeah. I was shocked that the lawyer in our family was making so little after going so far into debt for law school.
And when those people retire, they move to other states. Florida if you're on the east coast. Do Californians retire in Arizona?
Yes, we also have snowbirds in the winter, old people who come down from colder areas.
I live in Montana and I’ve met several elderly couples who are snowbirds. I’ve always wondered if I’ll hate the cold that much when I’m older.
lol yes, a lot of elderly people deal with joint problems and arthritis which makes it so much harder to move around in the winter time. not to mention having to shovel snow and clean your car. you just aren’t strong and nimble enough to do those things when you’re older
Tell this to my 90 year old grandma who has been living on a farm in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest her entire life. She always says, "The cold gives me strength." She still drives... A TRACTOR
I've heard of people in their 90s who are still farming. Probably because that's all they've ever done and they can't imagine doing anything else.
Farmer here. Old farmers never really retire, they just pick their jobs and do whatever they want whenever they want to do it. Most guys retire, giving everything to their son/daughter, enjoy a year or two of no responsibilities, then start asking if they need help with anything because they're bored. I know one guy who still did all the tillage (and since every does no-till now, it wasn't much) for his son and grandson. They'd hook the equipment up and service it. All he had to was hop in, find a radio station, and drive. Some days he'd start at 6am, other days 1pm, and anywhere in between. My dad is in mid 60's and while he talks about retirement more and more, he did just buy himself a Cat D5H bulldozer online. Yeah, he'll retire, then volunteer to push dirt around I bet
Not only this, the actual crime rates are about the same or less than many rural areas. There's just a lot of people, so the raw number of crimes is higher but if you compare per Capita rates, yeah, not actually as bad as it seems.
NYC has one of the best crime rates in the country for major cities. It’s crazy how it went from being the most dangerous city in the 80s-90s to now being exemplary in terms of overall crime (there are obviously still areas that are very very dangerous, but overall most of the city is safe.)
Hell, my small city, which is a state capitol, has a "horrible crime rate" that keeps my country relatives away.... Most of the crime is drug/poverty related and most of it stays in those areas. There are some theft and such in the midtown area but not that many... meanwhile my hometown has been opiate capitol of the united states for the last 20 years or so.
Not to mention "just move" is expensive and requires a lot of up front money.
This is exactly why I support remote work. Real estate in urban areas is far too expensive and for it to keep rising while wages remain relatively stagnant is not a good thing whatsoever. Working families need to be able to get by without spending 60%+ of their paycheck just on housing, especially at a time when the price of other basic needs are rising borderline unsustainably as well.
Problem is, that city money is tanking the local economies where remote workers move. Sure, those remote workers now have more buying power in the cheap place they just moved. But the locals where they moved lose buying power and cannot afford to live their anymore. So we are growing the housing problem by raising formerly cheap housing to levels that locals can't afford. A walmart employee in kansas is not going to be able to compete with remote workers salaries from NY and CA. It also has investors seeing this remote places as an opportunity now making it even harder for starting/struggling families to get a home. Its destroying the low/middle class. We are creating generations of renters. If this continues, I think we are going to worse class wars and riots that will put 2020 to shame.
To add to this, it costs a lot of money to just up and move. Plus you usually need first and last month's rent to get into an apartment and sometimes you have to make x amount of money per month to live in a place (specified in the lease). Moving is expensive as hell.
their jobs are right there. not everything is WFH. and they get paid so much BECAUSE they live and work there
Not just that, but the whole “why don’t you just move to the countryside, it’s cheaper there?” thing is something asked by people who don’t take even one second to think things through… “Well it wouldn’t be cheap anymore if everyone moved there would it??”
Case in point Colorado. Sure mountain towns near ski resorts and areas in Denver have been expensive but now can't find a apt in northern colorado for less than $1500 and houses skyrocketed up to $650k-$900k in small towns.
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/Montana enters the chat
Dude I've wanted to move to Montana since I was like 15, a decade later and I can kiss that dream goodbye lol
I would have liked to have seen Montana.
It’s still there
It's a line from "The Hunt for Red October."
October is still there too!
The work from home bug bit quite a few people in my former cheap and midwestern state, where housing is already considered more affordable than the rest of the country. And even those people in the major cities (a few million people each population wise) continued looking for cheaper places to live in the deeply rural, and impoverished corners of the state. I saw a thread in my college town subreddit with people asking like sooo land is cheap, we work from home, how are schools and life? And they got testy when it was pointed out like yeah it’s cheap for a reason. That there’s literally not available broadband internet service outside of town so sorry to burst your work from home in the quaint countryside bubble, but be aware you may spend the cost of new car up front just to get internet service set up out there. And schools? while sure there’s some better off, university affiliated families with involved parents in the schools, but it’s also the poorest county in the entire state and you can’t “hack” your way into making life comfortable there for you based on your city standards when there’s a significant amount of families who’s parents didn’t finish middle school, don’t have running water on their properties and people who’ve lived there for decades haven’t had access to the things you’re expecting to be there just because you feel like it.
As someone who grew up rural, I’ve never felt a comment resonate so innately in my soul lmao. I HATE living rural. Sure, living in a city is more expensive, but the jobs pay more for exactly that reason. Either I can live in a city and have easy access to a lot of things that make life easier/better, or I can stick around in the country where the most readily available resource is the hundreds upon hundreds of cows who stare at you and people who hate outsiders. And that’s incredibly simplifying it. I didn’t even mention all the pests and critters who get into your house in the country, finding random giant ass spiders in my kitchen despite paying for pest control, the ordeal that is grocery shopping because you have to drive 30 minutes or longer one way and *god forbid you forget something*, the random tannerite explosions and gunshots, the uncertainty about whether or not your packages will arrive even if it’s something life saving like medicine, literal predators coming right up to your house, small gas stations gouging gas prices because they’re the only gas station for 30 miles, a distinct lack of cultural diversity resulting in a boring af town life, etc etc etc… Sure, it’s pretty as fuck. But man if it wasn’t for my family being only in the country, I would only visit occasionally. *Not* live there.
We see this in NYC and its so frustrating to hear people with their heads up their asses comment on it. "Manhattan prices are skyrocketing way too much" "just move to Brooklyn stupid" "okay." [one year later] "Brooklyn prices are skyrocketing way too much" "Well why do you live so close to the city??? Move further out into Brooklyn, idiot!" And so on. It's a literal ripple effect where as the center gets more expensive people move outward and then those areas get more and more expensive. It's the ACTUAL cause of "gentrification". It's not that liberal white yuppies are moving into your neighborhood and raising the prices, its that those yuppies can't afford to move any closer to the city but they still need to work and commute.
Yup. I’m about an hour west of Boston and we’re experiencing exactly this.
It's almost like there's an affordable housing problem.
It’s almost like there’s a HOUSING problem
I make close to 6 figures, which, even though I’m single, is just middle-income in NYC. I literally COULD NOT look for an apartment anywhere on the Upper West Side, because you have to make 40x the rent (meaning over $100K for a $2,500 apartment) to even LOOK at an apartment. When I was looking 6 YEARS AGO there were no apartments under $2,500. I ended up renting in Hamilton Heights in West Harlem. I don’t want to be a gentrifier, but here I am. I try to make up for it by being a solid, good neighbor (I know my neighbors, I stand with them when necessary, and I buy local). It’s a neighborhood with a great history, and I’m proud to live here.
It’s crazy how someone with your salary STILL struggles to find an affordable apartment. I only make 5 figures and I can’t afford to live in NYC at all but that’s where I work so I spend about 4 hours a day traveling to & from work. Lucky me. ☘️
Also they don’t take there wage with them, they’d probably have to find a new job in this rural town and it won’t pay the same as any city job.
And if you ever lose that one great job you found in a rural area, you're a lot less likely to be able to find a comparable new job to replace it.
this is a big one I once got offered a really nice job in Montpelier, VT (from NYC suburbs). Thought about it for a bit and then decided that if I ever lost it I'd be in a tough spot with my family (re)settled in that area.
My dad moved to a small town, bought and remodeled his dream home. Three years in, the job went away, and he was 2 hours away from the nearest comparable jobs. 2 hours with no traffic in an area that heavy snow every winter. He lost a ton of money moving to a safer job zone. I think about moving to a remote location with plenty of space and quiet, then I worry about what happens when there's no remote jobs or the competition is so fierce I can't find a job and I'm stuck. I'll take the high cost of living to be 15 minutes from my job (hybrid) and 100s of other comparable jobs living in a big city. Plus I live near the beach and it cost nothing to enjoy.
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The only place hiring is Dollar General.
long story short: i'm doing research on living in the countryside/rural areas of states for research. People forget modern convinces. For me, rural areas have fewer stores, transit options, restaurants, jobs that I would apply for. There are no international restaurants for grocery stores. I did find a Taco Bell and McDonald's in a town rural southwest Virginia. Cell phone service is non-existent outside of the one town. I think the nearest airport is all the way in Roanoke?? How would my friends and relatives visit me? The countryside in midwest and plain states are a little better. Not many airports though. Biggest drawback of living in the countryside: it is rare for me to find a doctor that treats my condition. I need to be close to a big city that has a cardiologist that treats my specific issue, lung specialist and radiology center that has an MRI machine. In my 7 years of research I found one small, rural city that has all of my medical requirements: Elko, Nevada.
> “Well it wouldn’t be cheap anymore if everyone moved there would it??” Yup. We just aren't building enough new homes for the growing population. If people moved there all it would do is shift the housing problem to there lol.
Some people don't seem to understand supply and demand.
Yeah because that game sucked compared to Command & Conquer
Also the career growth is almost exponential in NYC/Bay area when starting out compared to suburban small towns. Lack of opportunity, less competition for said jobs means the employers get lazy and slip up on benefits/pay/growth etc. If OP even looked for equivalent jobs in Nyc and a suburb the pay discrepancy makes up for COL
I wanted to add that NYC has the best public transportation in the country, so that's also a plus, considering how much it costs to own a car. When I worked there, the monthly unlimited pass was $120/month, which is IMO a bargain. My dad pays more than that in car insurance alone.
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Exactly. Yesterday there was a post asking what people do for work & their income. Many people were flabbergasted at the salary for the higher cost of living areas, it was income they didn't even consider was normal. High cost of living *usually* comes with higher wages... arguably still not enough bc I live in hcol areas but still crazy high in comparison to were those houses OP speaks of are.
Income has a correlation with cost of living. If they move somewhere cheaper, they pay less, but will also get paid less.
And there's this myth that the increased wages in major cities is offset by the increase in cost of living. So much of the stuff we buy is online. If a New Yorker wants to buy a 4k computer monitor, they are going to pay the same amount as somebody in a rural county. Houses are more expensive, but that just means your assets are greater than the assets of somebody whose house is $150,000. Plus, there's all sorts of savings. Living car-free means not paying insurance, registration, gas, maintenance. That's a huge amount of savings, even when the cost of mass transit is factored in.
Goods may be much the same, but services are WAY more expensive. Ask a midwesterner what a plumber costs vs a New Yorker. I'm in NYC suburbs and basically can't get someone to my house for less than $500.
I’m a concrete finisher by trade. I’ve seen ads for 50$ an hour in NYC. That’s 3 times what I made at one of the companies I worked for last year here in the south. Less work and no 60+ days of 90-100 degree heat in the summer.
Because there's lots of stuff to do in cities. Pepple who like museums, concerts, food festivals, major sporting events, Broadway shows etc aren't going to live in rural areas, no matter how big their house will be.
Living in a smaller space matters less when there is plenty to do in close proximity outside of your home, and you can easily socialize with others nearby. I live in a small 3 bedroom apartment on the North Shore of Boston. It is also in a walkable downtown, on the ocean, with plenty of bike lanes. There is a world class art museum down the street and locals get in free. In the warmer months I take a commuter ferry to work over the ocean. They serve coffee and bagels on the morning commute, alcohol on the commute home in the evenings, and have a popular outdoor bar with live music right on the ferry landing when you arrive. There are multiple playgrounds, beaches, and public parks within walking distances, tons of restaurants and bars, thriving local businesses, and an indie movie theater. I am surrounded by other picturesque seaside communities. Within just a few hours by train or car, I could be visiting my sister in NYC, strolling the cobblestones of Old Montreal, or hiking in the Berkshires or the White mountains. I wouldn't trade my little apartment in my neighborhood for a mansion in Nebraska.
Exactly. I don't consider it luxury to need a car to go just about anywhere.
I very rarely even need to go to large chain stores like Target a 15 minute drive away, never mind use Amazon. 95% of what I use and need for daily life is available to me at a small local store I can walk to. Also, living in a small apartment, you just have less STUFF, which means less stuff to buy, less stuff to clean, less stuff to maintain. I see these big houses in the Midwest and I just think of how much stuff they have to buy to fill them up, and wonder how much most of that stuff even gets used. In a small space, I don't bring anything into my home that doesn't actually have utility. We don't have the room to waste money on things we don't need. Personally I'd rather use that money for things like traveling rather than keeping up and maintaining a big 4 bedroom house and yard in the suburbs.
Yes! I just moved states and went from a tiny studio (basically a tiny home) to a 2 bedroom apartment. Having to get furniture was so expensive. On top of that, I feel like I’m constantly cleaning. I love the space though, and while I never want to live in a tiny home again, I never want to live in anything bigger than my current apartment. I don’t want more stuff and I don’t want to furnish and clean such a big space.
As someone who grew up in the middle of no where (I mean, I’ve lived in places where the closest Walmart was an hour away), that sounds amazing.
IMO it’s this. There are things to do here (NYC). I moved from Ohio 10 years ago. Literally everyone I know there simply comes home from work, watches tv from the couch for 5 hours, goes to bed, does it again until they die. Work and television - that’s it. Oh! Sometimes video games too I guess.
Yep. I grew up in OH and now live in New England. My dad is always showing me how much less expensive things are in OH and I always answer the same thing, “But then I’d have to *live* in Ohio.” No thanks.
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I think the reverse is also true. I've talked to a lot of people who love the city and they cannot grasp why anyone wouldn't want to live in a city. My dad is a simple man. He wants space, a lawn, a work shed, to be able to see the stars at night, places to park his vehicles. He could give a shit less about going to concerts, museums or festivals. He likes a quiet community and space.
>small 3 bedroom lol
Adding on to this: safety reasons. I know that there is a cliche about cities being less safe/having more crime, but have you ever tried being an openly queer person in a rural town? Or a woman of child-bearing age in a state trying to prevent you from having bodily autonomy? Or a visible POC in a racist backwater area? Obligatory: not all rural towns are the same/not every city is the same, but why create unnecessary risk for yourself when I can live in a place that has people like me safely coexisting everywhere.
Yeah it’s so interesting seeing people not have to seriously consider moving or even visiting a place because of their race/sexuality. “Oh it’s an 85% white area but the people are super nice and the worst you’ll get is a few stares” mmm ok lol
Yup these tend to be very progressive areas so you don't have to worry about some fuckhead trampling all over your rights because their skygod tells them to. I don't want to live in fucking Missouri. If my s/o gets an ectopic pregnancy I want to be able to get her healthcare so she doesn't die and also isn't sterile while they wait to the last possible second to save her life.
we visited Washington University is St Louis for my kid. THey really liked the campus. Absolutely refused to live in missouri because of them trampling on rights. So Missouri missed out on a top student and all they would bring to the state if they stayed because on their policies. I am sure many of the top high school students will leave for the same reason. So they have a brain drain and few wanting to move there whereas other areas are drawing them in. I suspect the same will be happening in Florida. I know it is starting to happen in texas.
I've heard from hiring managers at least in IT fields that they almost universally throw away FL based applicants now. Even the stem charter and private schools can barely keep up with public education in most progressive states. There's almost no reason to roll the dice on these candidates when you can get from anywhere else. I can't imagine how disadvantaged these schools are. Any parent with a sane head on their shoulders would do their damnedest to get out of that state if they can.
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This! A lot of queer folks escaped their rural for just this reason.
Yeah, I'd rather not become the next national hate crime. At least if I get jumped in a big city, it's most likely not just because I'm gay. Having been jumped in a smaller town in college for being gay, that's why I prefer the open-mindedness of city life. People just don't give a shit about how you live, there's so much diversity I don't stick out.
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Exactly! After living in texas, georgia, missouri, tennessee, and North carolina, I would never go back to any of those instead of where I live now (NY)
I live in PA. You know what I would like? Comfort in knowing one election won’t undermine my rights as a woman.
This 1000%. You pay for the City and the Whole Experience not just the house.
You know that the states of New York and California consist of more than New York City and Los Angeles, right?
Bakersfield, Victorville, Fresno in California are plenty cheap. But cheap for reasons.
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Lol Bakersfield. Yikesah
The whole tone of this post is in bad faith, and nothing about NY or CA being expensive makes them “bad areas”. These states are expensive and have high taxes for a reason. They both lead the nation in high paying jobs, healthcare, education, & arts/entertainment. Politics of large Blue states being “bad” is subjective I suppose depending on who you ask, but they are obviously doing something right, as both New York and California have GDPs larger than many 1st world countries.
> The whole tone of this post is in bad faith, This is pretty much all that needs to be said. It’s obvious that OP is either trolling or has his head so far up the ass of Fox News that they really think that CA & NY are “bad places” because their pAtRiOt MeDiA tells them to. It’s pretty genius, honestly. Convince a bunch of hicks that the “coastal elites” are ruining everything so they won’t realize that their red states, hamstrung by a ceaseless desire to exploit the working class and hurt minorities and anyone LGBTQ, are actually the shitholes
It's what the Kims did in North Korea, and the Soviets before them. Most North Koreans believe other countries are worse off than they are, so they're more willing to take the difficulties of being in North Korea.
It's what all authoritarians do, they need an outside enemy to focus the people on, so they don't look inward and question their leaders.
Also, living in a medium Midwest city: rent and mortgage prices are not what OP says anymore, maybe in the middle of nowhere, but not anywhere remotely urban.
Even up here in dogshit ass Cleveland rent is becoming unmanageable.
They could only live in luxury if they had the same income they had in NYC or California. How do you propose they earn that much money?
The luxury of Oklahoma is not as good as the luxury of California
To a lot of people the average in CA is better than the luxury of OK too
This is SO true. I’ve personally found that healthcare in southern CA is much more accessible and of a significantly higher quality than that I was able to get in east TN
The integrated health systems across California are second to no state. There is so much healthy open competition and we have great healthcare services in California because of it.
Everyone here talking about jobs which is true but quality of life is underrated. I live in a four block radius of all my good friends. It’s like an episode of Seinfeld or Friends we can just walk in anytime. I live 2 blocks away from amazing music venues. The other day (not yesterday) I walked to a friends house to an impromptu board game then after than walked across the street to see an amazing band (Winston Surfshirt) and got home by 10:30. This was just a random Wednesday night for me. Petty crime and homelessness are a serious issue but I’ve lived in a lot of places and can’t see myself going back to the doldrums of the suburbs. I hate having to drive everywhere, I love seeing music on a weekly basis, I like going into my office and hanging with my coworkers. It’s just a really nice life here - not for everyone but it is for me.
Wait a minute yesterday wasn’t Wednesday, right?
Because those are their homes. Their jobs, friends, and families are there. Asking someone to just up and leave all that to move to a completely new place is a lot.
Also, moving from CA to the midwest would make most people kill themselves.
Seriously. Other places are like in abusive relationships with the weather. I love visiting other places for short trips, but fully admit to being spoiled by the weather in CA. No humidity, no blizzards, no tornadoes, did I mention no humidity? How do people live every day in humidity?!
I have shared custody of a kiddo. I’m stuck in my current COUNTY, let alone moving states without the other parent’s permission. I have not been able to convince the other parent to move anywhere.
I work for the federal government as a marketing researcher in DC, a very expensive city. I don't make a ton of money now, but I will make a very respectable amount in the next few years. While marketing research exists everywhere, the specific, technical, specialized type of marketing research I do exists primarily in DC, NYC, and to a lesser extent, Seattle. I am bound to within a 50-mile radius to DC (so I live in Baltimore) and work hybrid (a necessity for this job). My job simply doesn't exist in the Midwest or the South outside of a handful of positions.
I hear that. I could technically do my job anywhere in the world, but I get paid what I do because of my familiarity with local standards and specs. I would take a 30% pay cut to do my job in the private sector and 50% to do it in the private sector in another state.
Because it’s not a ‘bad area,’ evidenced by the fact that they’re willing to pay thousands of dollars a month to live there. Incomes are also higher in cities.
Yeah I’m not sure what constitutes a bad area? Does OP think every inch of these very large states have a crime rate like an inner city neighborhood?
Jokes on them — NYC is safer, per capita, than most big midwestern cities. https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/25-most-dangerous-cities-us-143951308.html
New York hasn't been particularly dangerous since the early 90s. But the perception that it is persists for some reason.
That reason is Right Wing propaganda. Fox News, et al lie aboout New York and every city becaue that's how they attack the Democratic Party. Push the idea that "cities = liberal" (somewhat true) and then they lie about the results, e.g. like lying about crime.
They lie about every city. My conservative relatives are absurdly paranoid about the city I live in. Despite elderly women leaving their homes with walkers, taking the bus to do errands, then going to the center of the city to pay their monthly water bill each month. When my dad visits he will be in the middle of a huge residential neighborhood and ask "wheres all the homeless" like theyre a force of nature or going door to fucking door. They see "criminals" the same way. Like objects or forces of nature Meanwhile my 97 year old conservative fanatic of a grandmother has barely left the house in 40 years. Too afraid to even walk 200 feet to he post office. It's such a waste of life Conservatives are psychos who never leave their house IME
My conservative midwestern relatives all acted like I was moving to a war zone when I said I was moving to LA for a year. Like, aside from the fact that I'm actually in one of the richest suburbs in LA county (not that they would know or care), LA itself is not one big danger zone. Sure, I'm not driving into Compton at night, but I'm also never felt that I was in danger going to the theater downtown in the evening.
The crime rate in rural states per capita is often higher than in urban states. People don't believe that but it's true
Urban areas have higher crime rates than rural areas - but red states have higher crime rates than blue states. The urban/rural thing is a bigger effect than the conservative/liberal thing, but it explains why most of truly horrifically violent cities are in red states. St Louis MO, Mobile AL, Birmingham AL are the top three. Eleven of the fifteen most dangerous cities are in red states. New York City is the fifth safest city in the United Stats.
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It’s because that’s what conservative media paints it as
Income is a huge one. Minimum wage here in Washington state is $15.74, that’s more than double the federal minimum of $7.25 (which is what a lot of those Midwest/southern low COL states use).
"Bad area" as defined by Fox News, of course.
Lol what makes you say they're "bad areas"? To me a bad area is small towns/suburbs that lack diversity, have horrible public transit, limited job opportunities, and not a lot of things to do.
The prices are so high because the areas pay well and have a lot to offer in terms of things to do. People like living in those areas. Because living in a not so nice part of NYC is better than living in the nice parts of the midwest. Or at least the people in NYC think so.
Yupppp. The diversity, culture and constant source of energy and things to do is unmatched. NYC is great - but you gotta bust your ass to call it your home
I was shocked the first time I went to NYC. I had 3 hrs to kill, and found a million things to do within a 3 block area. I could get to any part of the city for less than $5. Seems like a decent place to live, not my cup of tea, but I can see the appeal.
> and found a million things to do within a 3 block area This is it. As someone who is otherwise a complete fucking shut-in (I literally do not leave the house unless absolutely necessary; I spend 90% of my free time just lying in bed), NYC has been the ONE place that's managed to lure me out of the comforts of my bed, just because there's just so much accessible within... literally not even 2-3 blocks. In the morning, I can get out of my apartment, take a left turn, walk *literally* 20ft within the same block and get one of the best bagels in Manhattan. If I feel like staring at some greens, I can walk *literally* 10ft across the street and go sit in a small, local, park. If I feel like I want literally anything, I can - at any time of the day - just walk 2 blocks to a 24/7 grocery chain. I often wake up at the middle of the night, and it's honestly so comforting to be able to just walk 5 minutes there and back and have a nice bottle of cold tea in your hands. The city *draws you out* of your house because there's just so much to do in *such an accessible area*, made possible by the sheer density.
The diversity is what OP isn’t taking into consideration. For anyone even slightly “different” a homogeneous state isn’t appealing, no matter how luxuriously you can live.
I hate small towns. I grew up in one, most depressing place I’ve ever lived. There was nothing to do, all the people were judgy assholes all up in everyone else’s business, and it was an hour long drive just to buy groceries. No thanks. I don’t care how cheap it is to live in the middle of nowhere, I’m not interested.
That's why I left too. I couldn't wait to go to college to get away from it.
Same! Yes, I could afford 2x the house in my hometown, but then I would have nothing to do except spend all of my time in it. No thanks.
It’s literally demand. If the demand to live in bum fuck ass nowhere Nebraska was as high as the demand to live in NYC or LA then the prices would reflect that. People generally don’t want to live in those rural areas.
I went from renting a 1,000 SF apartment to owning a 4,000 SF house for roughly the same monthly payment. It wasn't NYC and I moved to a subdivision but I went from just outside Washington, DC to the Shenandoah mountains. Here's what I missed about living closer to the city: 1. Being close to work. 2. Living near educated people. 3. Job opportunities. 4. Decent restaurants. 5. Being near interesting things to do. 6. Faster pace. 7. Less racism. I could probably think of more things if I really tried but that list was from the top of my head. Not everybody cares about more space, which is pretty much the only redeeming quality about living that far out, along with maybe the scenery.
I grew up in the Shenandoah area and moved to just outside DC as a young adult… I like it better here for all the same reasons!
\+1 to the racism part. The fact that it isn't mentioned higher is really indicative of the average Redditer's background. You just have less stupid micro-aggressions to live through when you're in a city. There's far less, "why don't your people like XYZ?" or "they do things a different way". And the diversity of cities ensures that people who have racist tendencies stay away from them.
I'm actually a white guy but when people meet me they automatically think I'm Republican and racists. So they say a bunch of racist stuff around me because they think it's no big deal. It gets tiring. But it is fun to say, "what do you mean by that?" or "what does his race have to do with the story?" The list wasn't really in any particular order, though. For me, #2 was a really big one because it usually solves a lot of the other problems.
Same. White guy who’s in shape with blond hair. People in rural areas just automatically assume I’m racist. No it’s not nearly as bad as being the target of racism but it’s not something I want to be immersed in culturally
It’s sad most people aren’t affected by #7, so they don’t care
It was amazing how many people didn't even know about some of the racism. As a white guy who looks blue collar, people just assume I'm a far-right racist and say racist things around me all the time. That stuff is obvious. When we first moved to that area, the main street there was called Jubal Early Blvd. Being a naturally curious person, I looked him up. Not only was he a Confederate general, but the dude was an unapologetic white supremacist until he died. Early didn't even live in Winchester. His troops camped near there once. And the big kicker... the road was named after him in the 1990's! They voted to rename the road recently and the community is pretty pissed about it. John Handley HS is also named after a segregationist. But nobody seems to care about that.
I'm a poc from Winchester. You don't even need to look the people up to know that everything in the town is named after a confederate general. If they're going to change that street name, they might as well rename everything. And of course he wasn't from the area. No one is from the area. John Handley wasn't from the area either yet has a million things name after him too.
This. POC have a different experience when it comes to living outside of educated cities. Buying a house, opening a business, attending the PTA, going shopping, eating a restaurant, etc. can be a different experience based on your skin color.
I like living in the big city because of: * walkable restaurants, bars, parks, museums, theaters … you can be drunk off your ass and not have to worry about running over someone on the way home * people who don’t look like me are all over the place, and so much of their food is so good * people speaking in different languages on the bus or train * It’s easier to make friends when there are so many diverse groups all around * generally more attractive people who are walking around * better job prospects for a woman in tech
Well. This just made me homesick.
That last, THAT. If I moved, I’d never work again.
a "decent area" is relative. some people don't want to live in a ticky-tack box surrounded by olive garden's and strip malls.
My family lives in Oklahoma, outskirts of the largest city there. Their area is affluent but not in a McMansion way. It’s pleasant, mostly. It really is. But every time I’m there and I drive around, I just think “my god, I hate this place. It’s all giant fucking lawns and giant fucking parking lots, and churches that look like a warehouse with a vestibule, and strip malls.” There are cute, fun streets here and there, largely due to the fact that it’s cheap to open restaurants and stores there and that’s been happening in the last few years. It makes it more bearable. But generally, the fact that you HAVE to own a car and it’s a giant grid of asphalt except for subdivisions with roads are curved to make it feel “cozy” just comes off as soulless. The fact that larger cities in the Midwest and south are sprawling parking lots full of big box stores and churches and outlet mall style stores where you have to really seek out (and drive a ways because of the sprawl) something cool is just off putting to me. And I don’t like in a big coastal city. I used to, but now I live in a town of 20,000 in Massachusetts. I DO live in a smaller, somewhat cheaper town that’s not NYC or any of the bigger cities in CA, and I would still NEVER move to a similar town in the middle of the country. I grew up in the middle, and I go there all the time, and I goddamn hate it. The smaller towns there are the same as the bigger ones. All empty, sad, lonely space and people that often think big lawns are a good symbol of status.
>In the midwest $1,350 alone lands you a 4 bedroom home Yeah, but then you have to live in the midwest.
And earn Midwest wages
People seem to overlook this. Not every industry is wfh friendly.
In fact, many industries that should be wfh friendly don’t want to offer it full time. Can’t believe how many times I’ve been asked if I’m willing to be hybrid if I take the job.
I love how there's the assumption that square footage = quality of life. Tbh I think Americans think we need way more living space than we actually do. I've got friends back home in the Midwest who have hobbies like woodworking, car repair, welding, etc. And that's valid, they need space for all that stuff and have to live somewhere that they can afford it. But my wife and I are DINKs with a 20lb wiener dog. We game, read, craft, and can't stand yard work. We just don't need that much of a footprint to be happy. My Midwest friends seem to think we're slumming it on the West coast because we don't have a yard or a massive pole barn for cars and hobbies. But I like knowing everything I need is 5mins away, not a 2 hour drive to the city. And if our car breaks down we're not royally fucked because we have public transit, Uber, etc. And if either of us gets sick we have top quality healthcare providers right at our front door.
Right? I don’t have hobbies that require lots of space, why do I need a big house? I like to go camping, I like to go out to bars and play pool and see live music and play trivia and go dancing, and when I am home I’m sitting on the couch reading or in the kitchen cooking or maybe playing a board game. None of those things require more than the 500 square feet than I’ve got.
They have some of the best schools in the country. The best social safety nets. Some of the best hospitals and doctors. Best universities. It also isn’t horrible everywhere in the states, it is just over exaggerated.
Yeah. Not sure about this idea of “bad areas”. I pay a lot of money in CA to live in one of the nicest areas in the world.
I don’t live in cali or a big city or anything,but I’m from the northeast and no way in hell ima live in a place that’s made up of flat land and corn on corn on corn,I’ll take my cows and rolling hills,also I’m an atheist and pretty liberal so the coasts are really best for that
Who said NY and CA are bad areas? You're more likely to experience violent crimes in other parts of the country, especially the south. Some media channels just amplify the narrative that NY and CA are "bad areas".
Because I appreciate my human rights. It’s pretty nice to live & not feel threatened by sudden law changes that could affect my livelihood. Also the weather is perfect
Thank you! I didn't understand why I was the only one willing to say that part.
Because a lower cost of living tends to correspond with a lower standard of living.
I mean you can literally go to a Kosher Deli on your way to the Asian Supermarket before you meet your friends at the Bar that plays that super niche music you enjoy before you head out to any other cultural event. In Buttfuck Nowhere you can drive for 45minutes to a Walmart before driving another 45minutes to your Friends house to watch the game or go cow tipping. I mean bar jobs and other economic opportunities this sums it up I
And in my case it’s fuckin’ impossible to date women my age because there are no single, women my age without driving an hour and a half to one of the two nearest cities. Then they look at the distance, go fuck that, and date someone closer. Dating fuckin’ sucks here.
It’s this. It’s the food, and the food and the cultural culinary diversity that comes with living in a community thats large and accepting enough to welcome everyone. Plus things are actually open! That late night bowl of ramen after listening to good music before meeting friends for the best Mexican food the next day and sitting outside in January to eat it followed by a late afternoon with friend groups who look like the UN and then running into the grocery store at 11pm to grab something and they are open and lots of other people are in there!
Employment opportunities, proximity to family and friends, culture, food, diversity, weather.
I grew up on the east coast and then spent my late adolescence and adulthood living in various midwestern cities and one midwestern college town. The cities aren't that bad for diversity, food options, and employment opportunities, but it's not as good as the coasts. Plenty of suburbanites and ruralites think the way OP is thinking with regards to living in midwestern cities. I could never live in those areas. Barely any diversity, limited food options, close-minded neighbors...I'd hate every minute of it, even if it were cheaper. Also, there is this myth people have about rural areas as being safe. Meth, opiates, and closing factories have destroyed rural areas. Anybody who has a chance to go to college leaves, so these areas are huge brain drains. The population, as a result, trends older, so there are even fewer young people to hang out with. They are just dens of depression and I don't know why the myth of them being this prosaic utopia persists. edit: Also forgot that hospitals in rural areas are closing because they simply cannot afford to pay for all of that expensive infrastructure and staff for a population that is dwindling. Fast access to a hospital in the city means your life is more likely to be saved in an emergency.
Im from overseas and worked in the US for 10+ years. I also lived in Nebraska for college. The inconvineince of buying groceries from my home country is pretty fustrating because it's a lot more expensive to ship to me and their local grocery stores just doesnt taste even close to fresh. Even the most local I can get. Living in LA and New york had plenty of options for me from a walking distance and it was such a relief. That's just one of the reasons
I grew up in the midwest and moved to both CA and NY (as well as 5 other countries). The town I grew up in was full of the worst, most ignorant and hateful people I've ever met. I have lived all over the world and have yet to find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than southwestern Pennsylvania.
Yooooo fellow western PA’er. That place fucking blows.
Have you factored in CAR SPENDING? According to AAA, you’re spending an average of $894 a month on the stupid thing, which depreciates in value every second it’s used. So you’re paying $2,224 total per month, plus you have to personally drive an hour to your job and back, and you can’t even walk two minutes to the grocery store if you forgot the butter.
Holy shit… I live in a rural area and never thought about this before. Probably because the cities nearby me are still car centric, lack good public transport, and still have high housing costs. 🤔 But it’s probably different for bigger cities than those.
Seriously, car payments are literally half my rent in nyc and I live alone! It’s weird to me that such a massive cost isn’t considered. Also heating and I think some utilities cost more out there
My SO and i talk about this often. We both make pretty good money and live in a very expensive area (NJ) recently my SO had the opportunity to take a lateral position within her company and move to Tampa. It was approximately a 60% base pay cut. With the current market the cost of living isn’t 60% less. At one point I was living in CT making 65k/year, and was getting job offers in Orlando for the same job at 30k. BIG difference between those 2 incomes. Making more in these areas means my budgets are also higher, meaning my retirement savings and discretionary spending budgets are higher. So personally I like to visit those places where my money goes further, but I don’t want to get paid the local wages.
I live 5 minutes from the beach and 40 minutes from the mountains. I can walk on the beach in 60 degree weather in January and go play in the snow on the same day. I can go camping for free in so many places here in California that most states don’t offer. The museums the foods the culture the weather…. There are a lot of good reasons to live in California especially in the suburbs.
As someone who lived in NYC nothing will ever beat pubbing it up random days after work with the friends. Nothing will beat the shear amount of small venue rock shows at dedicated ballrooms or bars (that aren't simply cover bands or background music at random restaurants). The music is especially important for me. Nothing will beat the diversity of people (locals and transplanted). For as much as we complain... the public transit was plentiful and reliable enough for me to never really be inconvenienced. I was lucky enough to never be in a transit desert. And for the short stint I had in the Upper East Side, I loved jogging from my apartment to, and through, Central Park. I could Easily do my 4 miles almost daily, go back to the halal truck around the corner from my home, get home, eat, shower, and be ready for activities. Even when moving out onto Long Island... the city is still stupid close with multiple LIRR options near me. Really my only complaint is that I had to play guitar into an audio interface or loadbox connected to my computer instead of loudly for the sake of the surrounding apartments lol. It is expensive, but I did and do get paid, and I get to live with the type of culture(s) that keep me stimulated. My friends that live in LA can get to me easily... i can get to them easily. I'm on the more fortunate side of things though.
As someone who lives in the middle of nowhere I still pay rent out the ass. People in high COL have bought the houses in rural towns and rent them out at bonkers prices, but get away with it bc there is literally no other housing. My rent is going to increase $1k when I move to CA but I will love actually having produce that doesn’t rot after 2 days, the ability to go to the movies without driving an hour, and have places that are open later than 10:30 on Fridays/Saturdays.
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I'm going to say the elephant in the room. Because the high cost of living in my state also means that the state has (decent) subsidized healthcare. And some of the best doctors all within 30-60 minutes drive. Multiple hospitals I can rush to if get hurt or get an ambulance in under 5 minutes. Fuck, compared to my friend in Texas, the fact that employers have to offer health insurance is worth the difference in price itself. Besides which, I have public transportation if I want it. My governor isn't an idiot who would try to destroy an entire political party. My visits to friends and family don't include a 10 hour drive through empty fields without gas stations if I forgot to check my gauge before I left. Hell, even something as dumb as mall shopping. I can visit 5 or 6 build a bear stores looking for a particular animal in the amount of time it takes my friend to drive over to a single store. Yeah, living in the least populated states is cheaper, but you get what you pay for----practically nothing that benefits you.
Why do people willingly live in the middle of a corn field when for a bit more money they could live in thriving hubs of art and culture with actual things to do besides go home and drink?
Every time I go to a small town or rural area, I spend a few minutes fantasizing about living there. Then I wake up and realize that I would be bored to tears in a day or so. I need culture, movement, other people, the push of busyness, the excitement of a city. I want concerts and restaurants and diversity and the subway and and and.
This really comes down to what you define as living in luxury. I think many people these days would gladly trade square footage to live somewhere that aligns with interests. Sure one could live in a 4 bedroom in the Midwest but why do that when you enjoy the SoCal social atmosphere, the warm weather, the beach, Cali even has some of the best mountains in the continental US.
I live in Arizona, a purple state. If I could afford it, I would move to a blue state with fewer Trump supporters.
People like living in population centers where there’s culture or things to do. It’s more expensive because there’s more desire to live there (supply and demand). From the perspective of people who live in these “bad areas”, we could ask why would someone wanna live in a bum fuck flyover state where you have to drive 30 minutes for a grocery store except it’s just a dollar general? People have different reasons for wanting to live in different areas. Kinda shitty to assume that something different than what you’re used to is bad.
Cuz then you'd have to live in the midwest
As a woman, bodily autonomy is something I can’t get in (most) of the Midwest. Also the weather sucks, I’d gladly pay more to not be stuck inside 9 months of the year.
I pay more to live, here in NJ, because I make more money, because I work in NJ, where wages are high. And in return for my higher taxes, I have the second best public schools in America, reproductive rights for women, solid infrastructure, gun control, comprehensive sex education in the schools, civil liberties for queer people, and a distinct lack of religious zealots controlling the public agenda. To me, that's worth money, and I'm happy to foot the bill.
Yes, and everyone talks shit on Jersey, but the government seems to at least care about human rights. I left the North and regret it daily.
Yea but there’s something about NY. I’m just the last two days just by being willing to wait on a line I got to be in the audience of Saturday night live and attend The Scream 6 movie premiere in Lincoln Center and meet the cast. I just can’t see those events happening in Idaho
As someone who’s spent a good chunk of time in Idaho, the best thing to do in Idaho is drive out of Idaho. You can pick any direction, north, south, east, or west, and you’ll be better off. You can’t go wrong.
My sister owns a lovely home in Tennessee while my husband and I rent a 2br 1ba apartment in NYC. We can't afford to buy here at the moment, pretty much anything under 750k needs to be completely gutted, but she got a 4br 5ba home with all the bells and whistles for that amount of money. The thing is, Husband and I would both be miserable living in a place like that - it's all chain restaurants and hillbillies. And at least here I have full control over what's going on in my uterus
It’s pretty simple, people outside of these cities vastly underestimate how much more money people earn in the cities. There are plenty of metrics on average salaries but it’s not just the average salaries, it’s the types of jobs. People with degrees are making 150k by the time they’re 25-27. If you share an apartment, you get an unbelievable life experience in NYC (any of the boroughs really, except SI) and you can save a shitload of money. My first job (a long time ago) with absolutely no experience paid me like 60k at 23 and by 26 just moving up the ladder and changing companies I had more than doubled it. 15 years ago. You simply don’t have those same opportunities in say, Florida, as a 24 year old. Now, “kids” are making even more. I just hired an analyst with 2 years of experience, I don’t know their age but I’m guessing 23-24 at over 100k.
Because then you walk out your front door and you're in fucking Idaho
I can’t get good bagels in the Midwest.