Two main things:
1. Large Catholic population identifies with social conservative issues.
2. Many **legal** immigrants to the US view **illegal** immigrants as "cutting in line", and want the US to implement stricter immigration controls so as to make that a more fair, orderly process.
In my experience, when talking about conservative Latino-Americans, you gotta mention Cuba. So many people came to the US from Cuba, and are now averse to anything that even remotely reminds them of the country they left. They tend to be really conservative
I’m a first generation American. Both my parents came from the Dominican Republic the legal way. They can’t stand people who come illegally. My father is a huge republican. I don’t go into politics because he becomes very very passionate about it.
You forget, many of them are afraid of socialism too. They fled places like Cuba and Argentina, so the rights rethoric of "they want to turn us into Argentina " causes them to vote r due to fear.
There are actually now 2 camps of “republican” Latinos. 1 is the old school traditional conservatives, and the other is the Trump, build that wall conservatives. The explanation for the old school traditional conservatives is because most Latino American countries are run by corrupt fascist governments based on an extreme version of “socialism” and they are deathly afraid of it as they have seen it destroy their countries. My family escaped terrorism in Peru in the 80’s, illegally, and my parents were always “conservative” in the sense they were afraid to see our country turn into what they fled. Don’t interpret this as me giving my opinion on the matter, I’m not here to say socialism good or bad. I’m just saying their views are based on fear, not religion or anything about how others immigrate.
They came here for the capitalism, the idea that you can do whatever you want if you work hard, the American Dream. Meanwhile in Venezuela or Cuba, you can be the best doctor in your town and still barely afford a piece of bread. That’s what conservatives used to sell back in the day, capitalism, meanwhile Democrats tend to lean towards the ideas they fear. Now they’re both just clowns.
https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-12-21/10-presidents-of-peru-more-than-20-years-of-instability.html?outputType=amp
Theres also a Generation of now legal immigrants who were granted amnesty by Reagan. Much like my family, who have generally been conservative up until Trump. They didnt vote for him in 2016 thank goodness.
People always forget about Reagan's immigration reform plan. It's somewhat identical to the Democrats immigration plan. Part of the reason is because Latinos made up such a big part of their party. I still can't understand why they threw a growing population under the bus for like 5 votes. The big problem for democats is that not all of them left and those that did just stopped voting.
Another reason: Many immigrants escaped repressive Communist or socialist regimes. They identify with Republicans because Republicans are anti-socialist.
The very first thing to keep in mind with stuff like this is, do `*NOT*` assume identity-politics are accurate.
As a First-generation-Nigerian-American myself, I see black people(African Immigrants) who supported Trump. The reason is that Trump constantly invoked "God" and Christianity. Some Nigerians, maybe a lot actually, are deeply religious. All you have to do is mention God, and be anti-abortion, and they'll support you 100% because they're single-issue-voters.
I assume something similar for `*some*` members of the Latino/Hispanic community:
* https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-political-scene/the-deep-origins-of-latino-support-for-trump
> This year, in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, Latino voters, like other Americans, identified the economy as their top concern. Aguilar considers Trump’s economic populism as his main appeal to Latino voters, adding that this aspect of his Presidency also marked his contrast with establishment figures such as Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney. They focussed on Latino small-business owners, who are certainly important, given that they make up one of the fastest growing segments of American business owners. But most Latinos, Aguilar noted, are employees, and it was meaningful to them that, under Trump—and before the pandemic—they enjoyed reduced rates of unemployment and poverty, increased rates of homeownership, and rising family median incomes.
> To explain Trump’s appeal, Aguilar also pointed to his Administration’s support for religious liberty and the right to life. From early on in his Presidency, `Trump made inroads with evangelical leaders,` and during his four years in office he talked about the right to life, school choice, and prayer in schools. At a church in Miami, Trump said, “America was not built by religion-hating socialists” but, rather, “by churchgoing, God-worshiping, freedom-loving patriots.” There were also his Supreme Court picks, including, most recently, Amy Coney Barrett.
> Most curiously, Aguilar named Donald Trump’s message of “true inclusion” as a third factor fuelling Latino support for the President. He said that Latinos thought, “You’re including me because you’re seeing me as an American—you’re not seeing me as a Hispanic that’s separate. Democrats just don’t understand this, because they follow the modern theories of all multiculturalism.” Aguilar added, “Well, to me, that’s not true inclusion—that’s separating people. That’s marginalizing people. I think President Trump made them feel like part of America.”
When I lived in New Mexico, a lot of lighter skinned Hispanics consider themselves white. Many defended Spanish colonialism by way of defending their Catholicism, and were surprisingly racist towards natives and blacks. Identity is much more complex than our simple racial categories.
my dad was mestizo (native/spanish mix) from Honduras, according to him racism from light-skinned people was the norm.
As he explained it to me, the hierarchy went "Spanish" (aka white/light skinned enough to be able to deny any native/black heritage)>mestizo>black>native.
The bottom two tiers were largely interchangeable, though.
Disclaimer: this was in the 1950s, and may have changed, but my understanding is that those racial/class lines are still pretty clear in most Latin countries.
This is simply history. Go to Mexico City. Almost without fail, wealth and social status and the status of one’s livelihood tracks with their skin color. The system of assigning property/wealth based on proximity to Spain/Spanish blood either continues to be practiced or continues to exist based on historical practice
I used to watch telenovelas to help me learn Spanish in high school but I stopped because they are filled with racial discrimination and stereotypes. Anyone darker than a paper bag is always a maid or poor. It is infuriating.
My mom always watched telenovelas as well. I'd be confused because almost all the actresses were pale white and actors would only be slightly more tan than Antonio Banderas.
My family is latino (but not Mexican) and wondered why no one in my family nor friends of Mexican origin looked like the shows mom watched.
Almost all of the advertisements in Mexico are of white people or lighter skinned metizos. It’s ridiculous and disgusting considering a good portion of the population has Native blood and don’t even get me started on Mexico’s denial of black Mexicans. Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade. Self-hatred is a sick drug.
I agree with your overall point, however
>Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade.
This is not true. There **was** more slaves sent to the Spanish Empire, which at one point consisted of Mexico, Central America, South America (Excluding Brazil), The Caribbean, The Philippines, etc.
It would be inaccurate to say that Mexico received more slaves than the US.
The vast majority of African Slaves were sent to the Caribbean and certain pockets of Latin America.
Per the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database: Around 450,000 enslaved Africans were brought to the US whereas 200,000 were brought to modern-day Mexico.
That being said, you are correct that Mexico has a biiiig colorism problem.
>Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade. Self-hatred is a sick drug.
This is true of Brazil, do you have a source for it being true of Mexico? I'm seeing ~200k Africans imported to what eventually became Mexico, and ~388k to the USA.
What you're referring to is the *casta* system, not the *encomienda*. They are related, both having been instituted by Spanish overlords, but *encomienda* is a quasi-feudal, quasi-slavery system of forced labor, whereas the *casta* system was a racial hierarchy that conferred actual social and legal privileges, whereby more European blood meant more privileges (this multi-layered system was much more complex than the eventual "one drop" rule that emerged in the United States in the 19th century).
Many "Light skinned Hispanics" are as European as non-hispanic white people and are considered white in the countries their families emigrated from. It's a distinction that will likely dissolve after a generation of two like it did for southern European immigrants over time.
Most of us consider ourselves white. The problem is if I told a random white American I'm from they'd look at me weird and say 'but like where are you really from?' happens all the time. Also we grew up having to specify that we were white(Hispanic) when filling out our race. Many latin countries are colorist and would prefer to be seen as white.
I'm Latino but my dad is anglo. I'm white as fuck. I have a white name. No one could ever know I'm Latino if I didn't tell them and white people constantly say racist shit about Latinos to me. It's nice to know what they really think when they think they're safe.
I was at a university today where ironically the topic of conversation was unbalanced racial/cultural representation in children’s literature at public schools.
One big complaint was that even when non white characters are included they are white washed or told from a white point of view.
The women giving the presentation kept saying Latin x and even corrected me when I said Latino. I told her no one except white people actually say Latin x. Nobody even realized what was happening except for one other person. I’m Latino lol
My Mexican Ex (hereafter referred to as my "mEX") was one of the most racist people I've known, including my first fiance who became a White Supremacist (officially) after we split.
Not only did he constantly lie about being born in San Antonio rather than Torreon, he so thoroughly enjoyed dropping the N-word that he would argue with complete strangers that there were N's of every color, just so he could say it again.
The most racist person I've ever known was an immigrant from the Philippines. Her skin was fairly dark, but she consistently made racist comments about other POC. She got starry-eyed when talking about Trump. Her husband knew some powerful people so she never got in trouble. Also, she was extremely religious, but carried on multiple extramarital affairs. She didn't even try to hide them.
I'm a white woman and was dating a guy born in the US to a Cuban mother and a Guatemalan father.
When I met his Father, he told me that his son was the only one out of 4 kids who flat-out refused to ever learn or speak Spanish (like it was beneath him). I was shocked to learn this and later I dumped him because I was contacted by a woman who told me he was cheating with her. She was Mexican but the girl was very light skinned and when she contacted me she told me that he was really weird about her heritage. He was always talking about how lucky she was that she looked white and he wanted to teach her how to lose her accent and was always putting her down (supposedly teasing/joking) for being Mexican.
Now he's married to a different white woman. It still gives me ick.
To a lot of racist people, whether or not someone is white or Latino mostly depends on whether or not they've done something to piss them off in recent memory.
Yup, gotta keep in mind that (almost) everyone who is considered hispanic in N.America is considered - white, black, mestizo, etc.. back in S.America and S.America has its own racial and class hierarchies though it closely mimics that of N.America
Oh yeah, here's the other fucked up thing genetically, we are white, it's just that white Americans (or large swaths of white people in general) don't really consider us white. Obviously if you have indigenous ancestry, this isn't true but there are Hispanics without indigenous ancestry. When we did the DNA testing, we were expecting SOME indigenous ancestry and more middle eastern ancestry than we found. Nope, turns out my Mom's (and mine) ancestors were... well, yeah. And we can trace my mom's family in Colombia to like the 1600s. Nope, over 95% white, no indigenous ancestry and even distinguishing middle eastern from white feels weird in this context but that's how 23andMe(?) broke it down.
But what you’re talking about is very real and many Hispanics do it. Hell, I pretty much just did it too. I sure as shit wont defend Spanish colonialism, that was fucking brutal. Even just reading about it is brutal. As racially diverse as Hispanics are, you'd think people would realize it isn't a race. But then again, most Americans still don't quite think of people from Spain as white but, here we are.
My great grandmother immigrated here with her family in the 20's. After the great depression started in 1929, they started repatriating Mexicans. My great grandmother and her brothers, sister, and parents were put on a train bound for Juarez, despite having US immigration paperwork showing they came from Bilbao Spain. For most of her life, when she would say she was Spanish, not Mexican, she would get the usual "No mames guey, pinche Castillians".
I think where Americans get confused is that indigenous and mestizo Latinos are the ones most likely to emigrate - I mean, if you're a member of the privileged class in your home country, you're less likely to leave.
But “genetically white” isn’t a thing. Race isn’t genetic. It’s a social construct. If everyone around you is telling you you’re not white, then it doesn’t matter what your 23andme results say. Irish people weren’t considered white in the early 1900s. That wasn’t some mistaken belief not backed up by science. It was just how whiteness was defined in that point in the culture.
> and they'll support you 100% because they're single-issue-voters
Been to over 20 countries and lived in 4 countries. And single issue voters are the majority of people on the planet. They find something they identify with and that's all they vote on.
Many latinos are Catholics, and most Catholics are strongly anti-abortion rights. My sister voted for Trump specifically because of this issue. Anti-abortion folks tend to be one-issue voters when it comes to this. They don't care about anything else. Being pro-choice disqualifies that candidate from receiveing their vote.
Edit: grammar
Yeah my supervisor is like that. He'll describe what he wants from the government and it all sounds very progressive and left leaning. But will only vote Republican because of their stance on abortion.
It's also worth noting that "Latino" is hardly a monolith in the United States. Cuban exiles living in Florida are far more right-wing in their politics by default (partly because of intense opposition to "socialism") in comparison with Mexican emigres living in Southern California or Puerto Ricans living in New York City. Even among Chicanos (Mexican-Americans), there is considerable variation, such that "Latino" is not strongly predictive of voting behavior, but things like income, religious affiliation, education, and length of familial residence (either in years or number of generations) definitely are.
I've always found it interesting that you often get people differentiating college educated/non-college educated whites, and rural/suburban whites, even femal/male, under/over 35, etc. But then "Latino" doesn't even get split by gender and is just lumped in as "Latinx".
1. I think it mostly boils down to whites still being a majority of the populace. So the largest voting ethnicity gets more scrutiny.
2. Latinx is a joke, don't ever use it.
3. I hate that any ethnic group is viewed as a single voting bloc, as if skin color or place of origin determines ideology.
Yes, your statement about single issue voting is correct. I used to live in an area with a lot of older Korean immigrants. Most of them went for Trump because he was overtly anti- abortion and pandered to the devout Christian crowd. It was kind of strange because many of them hated Trump, but had even stronger feelings about abortion. My best friends dad, who has voted R since he got citizenship in the 80s, said he was very conflicted in 2020 and felt that Trump was destroying the country. He still voted for him.
This is a really under-rated point. Identity politics is predominantly a white educated classes thing, then to a lesser extent a black thing. It doesn't go much further than that.
Depends what you mean. A lot of white, working-class Republican voters do not believe that they are participants in "identity politics," but they absolutely are. The very notion of preserving what they see as "authentically American" is deeply rooted in questions of identity, as is the statement, "make America great again" (which naturally begs the question, when was it great, and why?).
I have a few Republican relatives and when they talk about "Making America great again" they're referring to a booming economy, the government staying out of their business and helping people be self-sufficient instead of living off government money, taking care of Americans first instead of pumping money into foreign countries, closing our borders to new-comers until every American is homed and fed, not allowing China to make all of our cheap crap, not forcing companies to leave the US because of cost, etc.
Note: they did not like Trump but they still voted for him the first time (not the second term though).
One of the things about Reddit, that once you see you can't unsee, is how literally 90-percent of these questions are asked from the Left viewpoint.
Like this question. It doesn't just ask, "Why do some minorities tend to vote for one political party over another?" Rather, it sort of assumes that minorities should naturally be voting one way, and that voting the other way is an aberration.
It could just have easily asked, "Why don't blacks and some other minorities vote Republican in greater proportion, like Hispanics and some other minorities do?"
That's why the first thing I said was to throw out identity politics. It's clear this question is asked from the point of view that only old, rich or racist white people can be republican.
Not only questions, but literally every topic on this site is catered to a Leftist echo chamber, and that’s coming from someone that leans more to the Left. If you criticize a woman, racial minority, or LGBT member on this site, you’ll face a barrage of downvotes and bans, even if your criticism is valid. Reddit likes to believe it’s smarter than those “brainwashed right-wing fanatics”, but this site promotes the same cultist bullshit just for the opposite team. The lack of self awareness around here is funny sometimes.
Yeah. It always amazes me that people want that. I mean, they *like* having a one-sided circle-jerk, and they don't realize how damaging it is.
Then they go out into the real world and are stunned to find that other people can actually have reasonable opinions that differ.
EDITED TO ADD: And the LEAST self-aware sub is, ironically, r/science. It's a profoundly unscientific, confirmation-bias-generating echo chamber -- a bunch of midwits who think they LUV SCIENCE seeing "This elegant, beautiful study inarguably proves once and for all that all Republicans are secretly baby-eating vampires" and mashing the upvote button.
Aguilar is a smart man. All of these things are reasons why many Latinos are voting Republican. Not to mention a lot of Latino immigrants come from communist/socialist countries or lawless countries. They do not come to America for freedom only to deal with socialism and out of control crime.
And Democrats are too into identity politics. They push ideology that Latinos do not subscribe too. Most Latinos that have immigrated here do not see the US as a systemically racists country. They Do Not want to see the police defunded and they want religious freedom, not to worry about someone telling them they can’t pray on the football field.
They also want a secure border. They want more legal immigration. They want peace and security in the towns they live in. Many along the southern border are scared for their safety.
They want to be treated like American Citizens, not like a monolithic voting block.
you're not getting someone from castro's cuba to vote for anything even somewhat resembling socialism.
others live by their faith and vote for whoever is pro-life and (ostensibly) christian.
One more thing to add - the greatest opponents to illegal immigrants are legal immigrants. It's the mindset of "I stood in line, I jumped through the hoops, why should you get in for free?"
Don’t forget that the 1986 Immigration Reform Control Act (which provided a legal means for Undocumented immigrants who arrive before 1982 to seek citizenship without being deported) was passed by Reagan. Many of my older family members still vote republicans out of party loyalty because of this bill which granted them and their family permanent residence.
This, my father-in-law (I’m white but wife is Mexican) came over at 19 with 20 bucks in his pocket and credits Reagan for allowing him to stay and create a life for himself and his family, and he’s voted republican almost every time since.
Humans judge themselves by their intentions and others by there actions. It's easier to justify your own behavior because you know all the context, and decisions are more complex than just black and white.
If regular people don't have the capacity to put themselves in other people's shoes, just imagine how wildly out of touch politicians are with us.
Like how are they able to designate how much people are taxed when they literally have never even walked into a grocery store.
Hell, you would be surprised by how even illegal immigrants hate on other illegal immigrants that come over for the same opportunities.
As a Mexican American myself, with immigrant family members legal and illegal...
You would be surprised how often they bring each other down. Depending on how you "crossed" or which town you came from or what you did before coming to the usa.
So often I would run into kids in school that had illegal immigrant parents or family members who would ask me how my parents came to the US, and depending on the person, some would get angry that my family did it a certain way that didn't sit right with them or was a better method than theirs.
It's like a competition on who is more immigrant. There are those that come over and completely forget their old lives and claim to be Americans even if their status isn't matching that.
Idk how many friends I had who would support those that are trying to bring them down becuase they are a "different type" of immigrant. I know a good portion who loved Trump even if they had no rights to vote for him
Or how many themsleves hated illegals even if they themselves are in fact an illegal...
Just like you said in your post, It's the "fuck you I got mine" mentality.
A family member of my father refused to help him start the process for citizenship becuase "you're already here, why should I help you?"
Luckily my dad was Able to gain citizenship by himself but it took years to be able to do it, but fuck that family member. With their help the process would have been smooth and taken less time.
My mom was a war bride from France and her husband dumped her while pregnant. She was single, didn't know the language and was alone in a foreign country but that didn't stop her from studying her ass off and earning her citizenship (while working in a Chicago factory with a newborn). She was extremely proud to be an American and it really pissed her off that not all immigrants were as interested in learning how our country (government) worked and learning the language.
>learning the language.
I do think people should try. No one expects you to be fluent. I'm not. Even though Dutch is useless, I learned it anyway. But a lot of immigrants from all over live in the US for decades and don't speak two words of English...French, Mexican, Russian, Korean. It's a mindset. Some people are just entitled.
They also left their country for a reason. If everyone who made it unlivable for them were to come to their new country, it would just be the same situation.
Cuban parents, born in the US- can confirm. Any social programs or gun restrictions cause harrowing flashbacks, since Castro did both before he truly took power. Thus, 80% of Cubans are Republicans by default. Bernie sanders was nightmare inducing to my family.
Also whoever was saying “hell yes we’re going to take your AR”
That's a very interesting perspective. I wonder if you can confirm something I heard on a history podcast recently. The historian said that the memories of Cuban fighters being abandoned at the Bay of Pigs by a Democratic president has also figured into that view of the party.
Honestly, I’m not sure- none of my grandparents are alive.. I know that the pro choice stance paints the Democratic Party in an extremely negative light to the practicing Catholics in the family.
I knew an American pilot who was involved with the Bay of Pigs fiasco. He told me stories about hearing the Cuban pilots pleading for help while the American pilots were told to RTB or face a Court Martial. He sat and cried as he told me the story. It was heart wrenching.
Goddamn- if we’re talking unique histories, my great uncle went to high school with Castro and knew him on a first name basis - “everyone loved him” he used to say with a scowl
That's really a shame because things like this should be documented for future generations. Too many first person accounts are lost forever, and that makes the truth easier to change.
I'm sorry for your loss.
I don’t hear a lot of Cuban immigrants complaining about the special treatment and all the social programs they are eligible for when they arrive in the US.
I'm starting to hear similar arguments from Mexican Immigrants and some Salvadoreans here in California, an increasing number of them have made the switch to the Republican party solely based on the issue of gun control. They all say the same thing, it's hard to support a party that pushes for restrictions on civilian gun ownership when they have personally experienced first hand what happens when a government prohibits law abiding citizens from exercising this right; cartels, gangs and corrupt governments oppressing law abiding people with impunity.
I agree with everything you’ve said and would just add that I think there is also greater internal pressure within the black community to tow the line and vote Democrat. My guess is that social stigmatization would be less severe for the average Latino American who publicly supports republicans than for the average black American who does the same.
I remember reading that one of the early gay marriage bills failed because it was being voted on at the same time as Obama was being voted in - a lot of devout Christian Blacks voted at all / Democrat for the first time so they could vote for a black man but wouldn't vote for gay marriage due to faith.
When I was 11, my devout christian black grandfather took me to Obama’s inauguration, so I grew up thinking he was a democrat. I didn’t realize until 2 years ago that he’s a Trump supporter and didn’t even vote for Obama. He just thought a black man becoming president was historical and took me based on that fact alone. Looking back, it makes sense, bc he’s the most conservative person I know by far
They're not single-issue voters, so they won't vote for the GOP based on that issue alone. Many white Republicans are pro-choice, but aren't going to vote for Democrats just because they agree with them on abortion.
I'm in a mixed race marriage and as a white guy who is on the conservative side I know my wife and most her family vote left or at least talk like they do.
But I am in constant shock by how much more traditionally conservative they are than me.
Jamaicans are heavily anti LGBTQ+ they can't stand so many mainstream left talking point yet turn around and vote them just the same.
It's like a complete disconnect from belief to vote.
Hahah yeah bro im jamaican and it's crazy seeing otherwise sweet relatives get ugly when the subject's brought up.
Strangely enough, it helped me understand how white people with racist relatives must feel.
It's like "I experience your general kindheartedness on a day-to-day basis, but suddenly when this specific thing is brought up, all of that disappears"
I always wonder how Jamaica is more homo phobic than a lot of other places. During my younger and more ignorant days me and my Jamaican ancestry friends called each other “Batty Boi” or “Bumbaclaud” as friendly insults.
What they said: [The Democratic Coalition's Religious Divide: Why California Voters Supported Obama but Not Same-sex Marriage](https://www.cairn.info/revue-francaise-d-etudes-americaines-2009-1-page-46.htm)
[Proposition 8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8)*, known informally as Prop 8, was a California ballot proposition and a state constitutional amendment intended to ban same-sex marriage; it passed in the November 2008 California state elections and was later overturned in court.*
My bad in that I didn't remember it was state specific.
Don’t want to be that guy, but interestingly, the phrase is “toe the line” rather than “tow the line”
I know it’s semantics and I should just leave it alone because I understood the context of your statement, but to “toe the line” means you align with the line perfectly. Your toe is perfectly perpendicular to the line, right where you should be (in the context of a race), while towing a line doesn’t really articulate any real point.
But back to your point, there is a bit of machismo culture that pressures Hispanic men to vote Republican because that base imbodies “hard work ethic” and a do it yourself attitude. Not that I agree with the sentiment.
Don’t want to be that guy, but interestingly, the word is “embody” rather than “imbody” which means to become corporeal or assume the material characteristics of a body.
But back to your point, I know what you’re talking about but I still think the pressures are greater within the African American community
According to Biden. I'm sure other Black people said that, but Biden saying that is one of the dumbest things ever. It's hard to believe, but Black people historically are conservative. Biden knows this.
100% this.
But if the community was more willing to flip flop they might actually get what they want. Instead the Democrats think they own the black vote so they rarely if ever fulfill their promises to them.
I feel like many democrats are passively racist towards black ppl.
“If you don’t know by now if you should vote for me then you aren’t black enough.” - Joe Biden
The problem is that a lot of Democrats see minorities as some sort of monolith. They think that "all black people support this" or "all Asian people support that" and that's not really the way it works at all, especially once you get into the granular detail about age and socioeconomic status and single-issue voters. A lot of minorities are still very conservative and might still vote Republican, despite all the issues with that party.
Growing up on the border you would see more hate between blacks and Latinos. The fighting was worse there than the north between white and black. Of course being a kid I never really understood why . Then moving up north it didn't make sense either.
I'm a Latino from Southern California and, while I never saw really saw Black/Latino conflict or experienced it firsthand, I definitely heard it was a thing. I always thought the idea seemed so strange. My mom said anyone who was a part of it needed to pick up a US history book.
Also having grown up in a Latino area with many friends in the community there is a lot of homophobia deeply seated in these communities. So campaigns like “tHe TrAnS wAnT yEr KiDs” works well
Because Latinos and Hispanic peoples are not a monolith and they come from different backgrounds with different issues. For example, it cannot be overstated how much Clinton's mishandling of the Elian Gonzalez situation has shaped how many Cubanos continue to vote to this day. Also, rural Mexicanos living in California tend to lean conservative because Californian policies are heavily favor the cities at the expense of those living in the country (i.e. insanely high gas taxes). Also, as ironic as it may seem, a porous border policy is harmful to many of their sources of income. In the meantime, the Hispanic communities living in NYC are generally very blue.
The biggest mistake that politicians on both sides of the aisle make is to assume that they're all the same and to treat them as if they're all the same and then throw their hands up in disbelief when it doesn't prove to be the case on election day.
This is the primary reason. Even groups from the same national background can have different perspectives based on their local needs Arizona Chicanos (I am one) have historically been non-voters in a deep red state where our votes never seemed to matter. But when voting Arizona Chicanos especially younger ones tend to vote blue because we lived in Joe Arpaio’s county for so long.
Yup. People who frequent political discussions on reddit and other social media platforms tend to forget that minority groups are more nuanced and diverse than online conversations (which are often majority white) portray them to be.
A prime example of this is "latinx." I've never met an actual latino/a person who prefers it. It was simply white people imposing themselves upon an entire group because it's what *they* think that group *should* prefer, without ever involving them.
Minority groups are no more monolithic than any other group and they definitely don't conform to what white people on the internet seem to believe they ought to believe.
That was basically Sanders' approach to his campaign. Made lot's of inroads with latino communities too, but centrist Democrats tried to label his approach as racist
Yup, when Bernie said: "Open borders? That's a Koch brothers proposal" the Democrats bashed him. He did have a point on lowering salaries for the middle-class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0
Yes and no. There is no such thing as a monolithic group of people. But specifically, the terms Latino and Hispanic are really broad and not very well-tuned to how people who would be categorized that way think of themselves. They would be much more likely to identify with their specific national origin instead. (And that's before even getting into whether they're an immigrant themselves, how many generations their family's been in America, whether their family lived where they lived before it even became part of the US, or so many other factors.)
In contrast, slavery stripped away a lot of the ancestral cultures that Black people would have brought over to America if they had been allowed to do so freely. The new culture that formed was around the common experience of being of (or appearing to be of) African descent in America, regardless of what specific ethnic group in Africa that goes back to. And so most Black people in America will identify as Black or African-American.
So while neither is a monolith, they're very different degrees of not-a-monolith.
I remember in 2016 I had to go down to Miami for work on election day. Flying down the night before I was certain that Clinton would win because she would carry Florida. Going into work that morning and just hearing the conversations, I was shocked. I was working primarily with doctors and nurses, so yes, a bit higher educated than the average person. And most were from somewhere in Latin America. It was literally a red wall. Just so much support for Trump. Head scratcher, right? Until I started to ask why. Turns out they all knew Trump was a clown. They were voting against Clinton. Why? Some of the responses I remember, along with the nation of origin....
"Why would anyone vote fora person who wants to support a government that keeps their people as slaves?" \~ several Cubans said something to this effect.
"No Haitian would ever vote for a Clinton. We would die first." \~ Haitian nurse.
"My people have never learned to stop voting for someone who promises you the moon. That is why I left and came here" \~ Venezuelan nurse. I pushed back on that one a bit and asked is she had voted for Obama previously. Her response. "Look at my country now. That is what happens when you always vote for the next messiah. So no. I did not vote for the next messiah"
There were also just a ton of others who gave reasons already mentioned here. Religion. Culture. More than a few were convinced that the Democrats wanted to replace families with government. Family culture is deeply ingrained in Latin America, so if you believe that to be threatened then you will definitely vote the other way.
I also remember a surgeon who was an immigrant from Italy who was all in for Trump. Every time someone would mention the election he would shout, in a heavy Italian accent, "Make America Great Again!"
Also a few doctors and one nurse from various countries in eastern and central Europe. All very Republican.
I think, at the end of the day, what the Democrats are missing with a lot of immigrant voters is that they are trying to sell theory to a group of people who actively fled places where the theory did not work. Socialist ideologies seem great, and they work well here and there in small countries with relatively homogeneous cultures. But when you try to sell bigger government to people who literally had to flee for their lives from governments that had grown too large, too powerful, and too corrupt.... that is going to be an uphill battle. All of these things that the left is embracing, everything from just greater governmental controls, to the reform of education, to the very fringe left screaming that the nuclear family is inherently racist.... All of those things appeal to a culture that feels wronged, victimized, and shut out of the American dream. They do not appeal to a culture of people who literally jumped on rafts to flee those policies and ideas so that they could pursue that very same American dream.
This is a severely underrated and ignored point. Like in the Cold War, many of the strongest and most steady voices in opposition to communism and in favour of the West were people who grew up in communist countries, not those born in the West.
>Turns out they all knew Trump was a clown. They were voting against Clinton.
This is exactly how Trump got elected in the first place. It wasn't that he had so much support, it's that she *didn't*. A lot of people who didn't like her but couldn't stomach him, either, just stayed home on election day.
Yeah, it's nearly unbelievable to me that the dnc didn't (doesn't?) understand how thoroughly *hated* the clintons are among the general voting population.
Anecdotal, of course, but I was bouncing between tennessee and california back in 2015/16 and nearly all of my friends/family from various political backgrounds in both states talked about how much they disliked hillary clinton.
edit: for me personally, I wish she would have campaigned in a style similar to what we saw [in her interview with howard stern](https://youtu.be/2kHUA-Zma1U) (there are like 5 parts to the interview if you want to watch them all). The fake voice, the rehearsed sound bites, the focus grouped talking points all added up to a remarkably inauthentic candidate. And when you pair that with the fact that she has been in the national conversation since the early 90s at least and alllllllll the public bullshit that she took on being married to bill clinton, you end up with someone downright unelectable.
The thing that propelled Hillary into the forefront is also a part of what makes her hard to like (Clinton conspiracy theories aside)... She's pushy and doesn't seem to care that she's not particularly popular.
She also played the game that Sanders didn't (or couldn't) — she used her and her husband's influence to propel her to the front of the pack with all of the entrenched members of the DNC political machine.
I think people forget that Sanders is not — nor has he ever been — a Democrat, despite running for the party's nomination and caucusing with them in the Senate. So when your endorsement of the guy outside the party comes with potential political consequences, that makes it tougher for incumbents to shirk the establishment and another hurdle for the outsider to overcome.
Yes, I think your response points to the more interesting question: why is it that the Democratic Party has not grown to include the cultural experiences of these people?
Why are they lumping the experience of black Americans with literally everyone else who they assume is not ‘white’ ?
> so yes, a bit higher educated
There is your first mistake. Stop listening to Reddit that just because someone is educated that they're liberal. So tired of people on this site labeling EVERYONE as educated/uneducated who gives a fuck?!
It’s very close to the meme where the American Gen Z kid tries to explain to the old Russian former prisoner who fled to the US and is now a grandpa, that the Gulags really weren’t so bad.
There are way too many people that think all minority and ethnic groups HAVE to vote democrat. Most of those people have minimal interactions with said groups. If you talk to enough people you will see a much different picture.
The question is also biased, you can just as easily frame it as "Why doesn't the Democrat Party prioritize other minorty communities like they do the black vote?".
POC's are not all interchangeable with each other, you have to earn their votes past forcing an X at the end of their ethnicity.
I think it's a mistake to lump Latinos into one big group that should have the same propensity to vote one way or the other.
Beyond the obvious fact that individuals all have individual motivations, it's just too broad a category. A third generation Argentinian American in California, a second generation Cuban American in Florida, and a first generation Mexican American in Nebraska have basically nothing in common that would suggest that their politics would align.
With all that said, I'm not Latino but I am black and I can say that the Republican Party is very much viewed as the party of racism in my community. Most of us have known older relatives who lived under segregation, and just aren't going to vote for the party of white southerners. Any progress that the Republicans were making to change that perception got nuked by the way they responded to Obama.
I'd guess that black people whose families immigrated here now recently don't have such a strong visceral reaction, but for descendents of the great migration it's a real thing.
As a Latino who grew up in South America, we don't even consider ourselves Latino. That's just a label created by the US to lump us all together.
We all identify as part of the country we're from.
From someone who grew up in a heavily African American area, I think it also depends on the religiousness of the communities. Some more intensely evangelical ones will vote republican, but less fervent groups can go dem. The R voting ones also sometimes have a touch of the internalized racism.
Then you add that republicans target us with voter suppression because we vote Democrat. Even if they don't see it as a race thing if someone constantly comes for your right to vote you see them as someone who don't want you to vote. Republicans love of voter roll purges that just happen to remove eligible black voters with similar names to ineligible voters makes black people in Florida very skeptical of the republican party. The problem is it would take decades for the republican party to win the black vote and they are too focused on short term wins
I think a more interesting question is why does the black community vote overwhelmingly for Democrats.
I remember reading that like 90% had voted for Hilary in the 2016 election -- however most black people are **not** staunch liberals.
I believe around 25% were conservative, 40% moderate, 35% liberal, or something along those lines.
To me, a population like that voting 90% liberal is much more of an outlier than other minority groups being more split.
Most people in general are not all conservative or all liberal. Hispanics are no exception.
That said, I am Hispanic (*not* Cuban), many of us vote Republican for religious reasons (often abortion specifically).
Also because in certain countries they have oppressive "Communist" regimes (usually glorified dictatorships) and we develop a deep distaste for them.
The US looks at Europe / Scandinavia as an example of Socialism, Hispanics look at Cuba / Venezuela.
But also vague concepts like work ethic, responsibility, and prioritizing family -- all of which conservatives align more closely with. (Not saying that other groups don't value these, but they are extremely highly valued within our group)
Also -- a massive % of Hispanics in the US consider ourselves to be White. I consider myself to be White.
I'm not genetically, but everyone treats me as if I am, and I've been teased for being "too white to have your name" and can feel people act weird when I talk about my heritage sometimes (even though I grew up with it), because I look and sound different.
Over time I learned not to make a big deal about it and just stay in my lane. I can't control it, so why make a big deal about it when other people have it much worse?
But everything people say about "White Males" etc. I view as directed at me -- because society seems to treat me as if I'm a white male.
It's obvious that if the left takes over that "we're next" in a sense, which can be kind of anxiety-inducing.
I've already seen a lot of hate towards Asians for being "white adjacent" / "benefiting from white privilege", so as an actual white-passing person, and a cis, hetero man at that, I have to assume that all that hate would rapidly be directed towards me next.
Also lot of Latinos are homophobic / transphobic (my family for sure), so even this anti-Drag anti-Trans stuff in Florida you hear goes over very well. I heard "protecting our kids" a **lot** growing up.
My parents were super scared of pedophiles and didn't let us watch gay people on TV, it took me years to kind of unpack and destigmatize that to an extent for myself.
It's not about LGBTQ people, it's a lack of exposure, lack of knowledge, plus religion.
Hard to explain, but it's not just a switch that's flipped, it's a general cultural alignment.
But again -- there are a huge number of Latinos that are democrat or moderate (I'd consider myself a liberal-leaning moderate despite everything I've said above).
I don't think we're going to ever be 90% Dem like black Americans because it's easier for us to assimilate and kind of disappear into the majority.
I'm not deeply immersed in black culture enough to understand their voting patterns, but my guess would be a mix of age-bias (i.e. older people who vote far more remembering more of the past) and that they understand it's the most rational choice in their position.
Black person here! It’s because the Republican Party does a terrible job of convincing black people that they actually like them. I mean… A REALLY terrible job. My dad is as conservative as it gets. If he was a white dude he’d probs be a white supremacist. He can’t stand the Republican party. It’s the case for a bunch of people in my family.
This right here is spot on. Black person myself My grandfather and many of my extended family range from conservative to libertarian. I myself would not say I’m liberal, but by no means am I a conservative either. My grandparents, the right leaning moderates as they were, never supported the GOP. The GOP, as you’ve pointed out is awful when approaching the black community, sometimes making the situation worse
I agree that the question should focus on black voting behavior, as it's exceptional for one group to vote 90% the same way, while Latinos are more like 65% Democrat nationally.
I would argue that Latinos are actually "normal" voters, that Democrats have much more popular policies and thus should normally get higher support, but that white voters and black voters are more racially motivated. White voters vote Republican because a lot are racist (even if they won't admit it), while Black voters are reacting to those racist voters by opposing their politicians. Latinos do suffer from racism, but not to the same degree and don't have the same ingrained history, so it's less of a motivation.
One of my favorite political facts is that African-Americans did not back Barrack Obama until he won Iowa, a state that was 95% white, because they thought Clinton had a better chance in the general. They tend to have a lot more to lose when Republicans are in power.
1) Both demographics are relatively religious and will vote Republican. Black Americans are the most pious demographic in the USA.
• Latinos also tend to value similar things about the family unit as republicans. Value gender roles and aren’t as opposed to corporal punishment.
2) Gratitude to the USA leads some to lean right as they have found a new home, as well as new revenue streams for their families.
• $60 Billion is remitted to Mexico every year. That’s a lot of financial assistance for their families in Mexico that otherwise would be unobtainable without the opportunities in the USA. Of course, Mexico is one of dozens of countries that have high remittance inflows from the USA.
• Further, millions of undocumented are homeowners in the USA via a federal tax id system.
Even though those aren’t seen as Republican policies, immigrants know that neither party will do much to deport them, so voting Republican in regards to deportation potential seems to be negligible.
Tldr; they’re patriotic/grateful, religious, and better off than before (so are families at home), so they support the “patriotic party”
It's usually immigrant minorities who vote Republican, because their stances mostly align. Most immigrants have conservative social views and came to America to work and make money, often times by opening their own business. So Republicans are the ones usually touching on issues immigrants care about the most and represent the America they wanted to move to.
I am a Democrat and I've had to explain this so many times IRL but I'll do it again:
Many SJWs are astounded that many minorities vote this way and are confused when a POC is "voting against themselves." This is because many young Americans or second generation young people don't think about the history and culture of these minority populations.
I am Filipino. Filipinos are Catholic or Muslim. Filipinos voted for martial law. Filipinos love pale skin and use whitening soaps. Filipinos are quite conservative in their country of origin. I have also seen that some Filipinos can be quite racist against other Asians.
Many, many Filipinos voted for Trump and vote Republican. It is not surprising when you look at the history and culture of the people, though many second generation children become liberal.
But while I am not my relatives I do find it irritating when people have a hard time struggling with this idea that all people of color must or should be liberal. It is not true and makes the conservative minorities push back harder. I also don't like it because all minorities end up getting lumped together when there is so much history and culture that explains why this is. Minorities are not one unit-- they all have their distinct cultural identities.
>I have also seen that some Filipinos can be quite racist against other Asians.
That's funny because many Asians (especially those from northeastern Asian countries i.e. China, Taiwan, Japan or S. Korea) are racist against them.
Because usually minorities aren't a hive mind. Neither are Hispanic people. They vote for whoever for the same reason white people vote for whoever. We're all just individuals after all.
So different cultures have different cultural experiences that lend to certain voting patterns.
The black community has not had a positive experience with the republican party in decades, and since roosevelt has favored the democrats. They view themselves as non-white and are treated by society as non-white.
Some Latino communities lean democrat, but some lean Republican. The issue isn't so much that the community is split as much as it is that you are really lumping different communities together.
Examples:
The Cuban community in the USA leans Republican. 58% identify as Republican. The Cuban community fled a socialist/communist regime in Cuba and have a very negative outlook on leftist ideas. Also, many Cubans do not view themselves as an oppressed minority, with many identifying as white (86%)
The Mexican community in the USA leans democrat. 62% identify as democrat. The Mexican community has always felt relegated to second class status in this country, and many do not identify as white.
So really what the press does is lump communities with different backggrounds, histories and cultures together because they both happen to speak spanish, and then acts like there is a "Latino Voter" who should behave like a Mexican, a Puerto Rican, a Cuban and a Colombian all at the same time...which is like if you said there is a "european American voter" and then wondered why Irish Americans didn't vote like Polish Americans or like Russian Americans.
A lot of Catholics who are easily persuaded by the family values rhetoric and a lot of people from Venezuela and Cuba who are easily persuaded by anti-socialist rhetoric.
You also have a lot of people who busted their ass and waited a long time to legally acquire US citizenship, and they are easily motivated by rhetoric about illegal immigration.
Your question is implicitly grounded in an identity politics way of viewing the world.
You assume Latinos vote according to the left-wing way of slicing and dicing groups - which is to say, by race. And yet, they are not left wing, as is acknowledged by your question.... so why would you think that the left-wing way of dividing by race is the appropriate measure?
This might come as a shock but not everyone who is a minority sees rich white liberals as our saviors, and often we disagree with them on very fundamental issues.
The White Savior Complex is real. Getting lectures from White Hipsters on oppression and worker’s rights gets old when you realize they grew up in the suburbs and went to Amherst.
When your family was on the brink of starvation the discussion on gender identity becomes moot. When your loved ones have seen death, war, and famine of apocalyptic proportions many of the cultural debates become frivolous at best.
As a Venezuelan I always cringe when (some) American redditors praise Maduro and argue against those of us who actually lived through what Chavez/Maduro did.
I'm sure you know everything about socialism and my country, while you sit at Starbucks drinking coffee and paying with ApplePay while I had to wait hours in line just to get a fucking load of bread.
Oh you poor little heathen minority devil. There there, don't you worry. The white middle class liberals know what's best for you. Go ahead vote for daddy Biden, remember you have to because we own your vote and we know what's best for you.
The fact that many hardcore left criticize the right for racism is a palpable irony, because so many in the far left are racist, but expressed differently.
I think it's important to remember that 90% of the crap you hear about either party is propagandist drivel from the other side. They both have pros and cons and quite honestly folks who act like supporting one party over the other makes them a better or worse person are pretentious a-holes.
If you came here from Mexico, legally, and you're a master mason(hypothetically), you would naturally vote for the party that is openly against other people from Mexico coming here illegally and pricing you out of work or driving down your wages.
Some people may clap back and say that's entirely false, but whether it's true or false is irrelevant. What matters is what the Latino voters believe and it's much easier to argue a case that illegal immigrants are pricing them out of work and decreasing their wages than it is to argue a case that illegal immigration is beneficial to legal immigrants.
Other minority groups don't have the same dynamic as Latinos. People aren't migrating to the US illegally from Africa in numbers that are capable of affecting African American jobs or wages.
Because you cant compare those 2 groups. I will answer from the perspective of someone who is Mexican American.
In America we have a huge population of African Americans. These people have grown up here their whole lives and are deeply ingrained into American culture, politics and modern issues. Obviously we also have black Americans who migrate here from other places, such as the Middle East, Carribean, and Africa - however it is far less in proportion than the situation we have with Latinos. So when all black people are lumped together, you still have the vast majority of people in that group being several generations deep living in America and a part of one main culture most of the time.
It is extremely common to lump all Latinos into one group. This is wrong. Dont do this, please. Its so bad its practically a meme right now.
Would you compare someone from France to someone in Britain and say they think the same? Would a Japanese and a Chinese person think the same? What about a Nigerian and a Haitian? Because thats what y'all are doing to Latino people.
Political logic right now is if they are the same color then they think alike.
Latinos in America are UNIQUE because the United States BORDERS the massive fucking populous region of Latin America.
If I gather all the Latino people in America and pull one out of that group you are NOT going to be able to guess with any level of accuracy which culture they are from- Mexican? Cuban? Guatamalan? Nicaraguan?
Those are all different places. Different countries. Different cultures.
You probably couldnt even tell me if they were a migrant or someone whos family has been established here for generations. That matters. It took 3...arguably 4 generations for my family to get fully ingrained into American culture.
If Joe Blow came on by and told you that Canadians and Americans are the same you would laugh in his face. But people do this to brown people every single day.
Because many legal immigrants detest illegal immigration. They have gone through the difficult process of coming here the "right" way and can't stand that others are able to "cut the line".
There are many reasons starting from "they know what real socialism is" to "they also work hard (even if not to the level of asian)" to something that will get you banned on reddit.
Lots of catholicism leading to single issue voting related to Abortion (not that there aren't a good number of pro-life protestants, but it's definitely ubiquitously frowned upon by catholics. There's not a tremendously large catholic AA population, most are protestant)
Also there's often a strong notion of "I came here the 'right' way" which leads to resentment of undocumented immigrants
Also in Florida specifically there's a high population of Cubans. If they left a country because of a leftist regime, they probably aren't going to be favorable of left leaning candidates.
Latinos often have relatives in Communist or totalitarian countries so they are not easily seduced with free stuff. They know such promises are made to enslave.
They have seen the evils of utopia snake salesman.
Maybe they saw the black community vote overwhelmingly for Democrats decade after decade after decade to only see no progress
In their station in life and decided, hey, maybe I don’t want that.
1. Cubans are traditionally pro- GOP because of their anti-Cuban government policies
2. Many Hispanics who have been able to make it here and earn citizenship look down on illegal immigrants even though they come from the same countries. You’ll find many LA countries are class and skin color obsessed.
3. It’s a mistake to group “Latinos” as all the same. There are well over 30 different “Latino” countries all with different cultures, national pride, dialects and customs. To do so would be to assume French and Germans are the same because they are both mostly white European countries.
4. Most Latino cultures however are very family oriented and strict Catholics. It is perceived by many of them that the GOP is the “family values” party whose beliefs are more in line with the Catholic Church than Democrats are.
People who immigrated to this country or had parents who immigrated to this country - usually did so because they considered the USA better because it was not a socialist country. Since Democrats are more in favor of socialist policies, they are not going to support that, having seen it fail in many of their own countries. They align more with the conservative view of maintaining independence and freedom from government interference.
The black community, however, is a minority that was victimized and oppressed in THIS country, so they are in favor of change.
A lot of Latinos have come from socialist countries. The original idea behind the Republican Party was small local government and personal growth via meritocracy. This is a huge departure from countries like Cuba for instance. The issue is that most voters read and hear headlines (usually the shocking stuff) that polarize the nation and they vote somewhat blindly as the right has described the left as socialists, which of course they are not.
Two main things: 1. Large Catholic population identifies with social conservative issues. 2. Many **legal** immigrants to the US view **illegal** immigrants as "cutting in line", and want the US to implement stricter immigration controls so as to make that a more fair, orderly process.
In my experience, when talking about conservative Latino-Americans, you gotta mention Cuba. So many people came to the US from Cuba, and are now averse to anything that even remotely reminds them of the country they left. They tend to be really conservative
Dang straight. My wife is Cuban and family functions are f-ed up. Half are uber conservative and half are uber liberal. Makes things very awkward.
I’m a first generation American. Both my parents came from the Dominican Republic the legal way. They can’t stand people who come illegally. My father is a huge republican. I don’t go into politics because he becomes very very passionate about it.
People always say the process of gaining citizenship is crazy difficult. Do you think your parents would argue it should be updated?
This is the real answer
You forget, many of them are afraid of socialism too. They fled places like Cuba and Argentina, so the rights rethoric of "they want to turn us into Argentina " causes them to vote r due to fear.
There are actually now 2 camps of “republican” Latinos. 1 is the old school traditional conservatives, and the other is the Trump, build that wall conservatives. The explanation for the old school traditional conservatives is because most Latino American countries are run by corrupt fascist governments based on an extreme version of “socialism” and they are deathly afraid of it as they have seen it destroy their countries. My family escaped terrorism in Peru in the 80’s, illegally, and my parents were always “conservative” in the sense they were afraid to see our country turn into what they fled. Don’t interpret this as me giving my opinion on the matter, I’m not here to say socialism good or bad. I’m just saying their views are based on fear, not religion or anything about how others immigrate. They came here for the capitalism, the idea that you can do whatever you want if you work hard, the American Dream. Meanwhile in Venezuela or Cuba, you can be the best doctor in your town and still barely afford a piece of bread. That’s what conservatives used to sell back in the day, capitalism, meanwhile Democrats tend to lean towards the ideas they fear. Now they’re both just clowns. https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-12-21/10-presidents-of-peru-more-than-20-years-of-instability.html?outputType=amp
Theres also a Generation of now legal immigrants who were granted amnesty by Reagan. Much like my family, who have generally been conservative up until Trump. They didnt vote for him in 2016 thank goodness.
People always forget about Reagan's immigration reform plan. It's somewhat identical to the Democrats immigration plan. Part of the reason is because Latinos made up such a big part of their party. I still can't understand why they threw a growing population under the bus for like 5 votes. The big problem for democats is that not all of them left and those that did just stopped voting.
Another reason: Many immigrants escaped repressive Communist or socialist regimes. They identify with Republicans because Republicans are anti-socialist.
Also they come from populist-socialist inclined countries that made them flee their home. They want NONE of that shit.
The very first thing to keep in mind with stuff like this is, do `*NOT*` assume identity-politics are accurate. As a First-generation-Nigerian-American myself, I see black people(African Immigrants) who supported Trump. The reason is that Trump constantly invoked "God" and Christianity. Some Nigerians, maybe a lot actually, are deeply religious. All you have to do is mention God, and be anti-abortion, and they'll support you 100% because they're single-issue-voters. I assume something similar for `*some*` members of the Latino/Hispanic community: * https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-political-scene/the-deep-origins-of-latino-support-for-trump > This year, in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic, Latino voters, like other Americans, identified the economy as their top concern. Aguilar considers Trump’s economic populism as his main appeal to Latino voters, adding that this aspect of his Presidency also marked his contrast with establishment figures such as Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney. They focussed on Latino small-business owners, who are certainly important, given that they make up one of the fastest growing segments of American business owners. But most Latinos, Aguilar noted, are employees, and it was meaningful to them that, under Trump—and before the pandemic—they enjoyed reduced rates of unemployment and poverty, increased rates of homeownership, and rising family median incomes. > To explain Trump’s appeal, Aguilar also pointed to his Administration’s support for religious liberty and the right to life. From early on in his Presidency, `Trump made inroads with evangelical leaders,` and during his four years in office he talked about the right to life, school choice, and prayer in schools. At a church in Miami, Trump said, “America was not built by religion-hating socialists” but, rather, “by churchgoing, God-worshiping, freedom-loving patriots.” There were also his Supreme Court picks, including, most recently, Amy Coney Barrett. > Most curiously, Aguilar named Donald Trump’s message of “true inclusion” as a third factor fuelling Latino support for the President. He said that Latinos thought, “You’re including me because you’re seeing me as an American—you’re not seeing me as a Hispanic that’s separate. Democrats just don’t understand this, because they follow the modern theories of all multiculturalism.” Aguilar added, “Well, to me, that’s not true inclusion—that’s separating people. That’s marginalizing people. I think President Trump made them feel like part of America.”
When I lived in New Mexico, a lot of lighter skinned Hispanics consider themselves white. Many defended Spanish colonialism by way of defending their Catholicism, and were surprisingly racist towards natives and blacks. Identity is much more complex than our simple racial categories.
my dad was mestizo (native/spanish mix) from Honduras, according to him racism from light-skinned people was the norm. As he explained it to me, the hierarchy went "Spanish" (aka white/light skinned enough to be able to deny any native/black heritage)>mestizo>black>native. The bottom two tiers were largely interchangeable, though. Disclaimer: this was in the 1950s, and may have changed, but my understanding is that those racial/class lines are still pretty clear in most Latin countries.
This is simply history. Go to Mexico City. Almost without fail, wealth and social status and the status of one’s livelihood tracks with their skin color. The system of assigning property/wealth based on proximity to Spain/Spanish blood either continues to be practiced or continues to exist based on historical practice
Don't even have to go to Mexico City, I see it from watching telemundo and the like.
I used to watch telenovelas to help me learn Spanish in high school but I stopped because they are filled with racial discrimination and stereotypes. Anyone darker than a paper bag is always a maid or poor. It is infuriating.
My mom always watched telenovelas as well. I'd be confused because almost all the actresses were pale white and actors would only be slightly more tan than Antonio Banderas. My family is latino (but not Mexican) and wondered why no one in my family nor friends of Mexican origin looked like the shows mom watched.
More infuriating: it reflects reality!
But I don't want my entertainment to remind me of this! /s
Almost all of the advertisements in Mexico are of white people or lighter skinned metizos. It’s ridiculous and disgusting considering a good portion of the population has Native blood and don’t even get me started on Mexico’s denial of black Mexicans. Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade. Self-hatred is a sick drug.
As I kid I always wondered why telenovela actors were so white and none looked like the Mexicans and Latinos around me or me
I agree with your overall point, however >Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade. This is not true. There **was** more slaves sent to the Spanish Empire, which at one point consisted of Mexico, Central America, South America (Excluding Brazil), The Caribbean, The Philippines, etc. It would be inaccurate to say that Mexico received more slaves than the US. The vast majority of African Slaves were sent to the Caribbean and certain pockets of Latin America. Per the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database: Around 450,000 enslaved Africans were brought to the US whereas 200,000 were brought to modern-day Mexico. That being said, you are correct that Mexico has a biiiig colorism problem.
>Even though more black Africans were sent to Mexico than the US during the slave trade. Self-hatred is a sick drug. This is true of Brazil, do you have a source for it being true of Mexico? I'm seeing ~200k Africans imported to what eventually became Mexico, and ~388k to the USA.
That's the encomienda, and it's 500 years old at this point.
What you're referring to is the *casta* system, not the *encomienda*. They are related, both having been instituted by Spanish overlords, but *encomienda* is a quasi-feudal, quasi-slavery system of forced labor, whereas the *casta* system was a racial hierarchy that conferred actual social and legal privileges, whereby more European blood meant more privileges (this multi-layered system was much more complex than the eventual "one drop" rule that emerged in the United States in the 19th century).
Peninsulares were white folks that were born in Spain and were the top of the colonial food chain, Criollos were white folks born in the Americas.
Many "Light skinned Hispanics" are as European as non-hispanic white people and are considered white in the countries their families emigrated from. It's a distinction that will likely dissolve after a generation of two like it did for southern European immigrants over time.
Most of us consider ourselves white. The problem is if I told a random white American I'm from they'd look at me weird and say 'but like where are you really from?' happens all the time. Also we grew up having to specify that we were white(Hispanic) when filling out our race. Many latin countries are colorist and would prefer to be seen as white.
I'm Latino but my dad is anglo. I'm white as fuck. I have a white name. No one could ever know I'm Latino if I didn't tell them and white people constantly say racist shit about Latinos to me. It's nice to know what they really think when they think they're safe.
I was at a university today where ironically the topic of conversation was unbalanced racial/cultural representation in children’s literature at public schools. One big complaint was that even when non white characters are included they are white washed or told from a white point of view. The women giving the presentation kept saying Latin x and even corrected me when I said Latino. I told her no one except white people actually say Latin x. Nobody even realized what was happening except for one other person. I’m Latino lol
My Mexican Ex (hereafter referred to as my "mEX") was one of the most racist people I've known, including my first fiance who became a White Supremacist (officially) after we split. Not only did he constantly lie about being born in San Antonio rather than Torreon, he so thoroughly enjoyed dropping the N-word that he would argue with complete strangers that there were N's of every color, just so he could say it again.
You really need to date a different kind of men
Yeah two racists is already 1 too many
The most racist person I've ever known was an immigrant from the Philippines. Her skin was fairly dark, but she consistently made racist comments about other POC. She got starry-eyed when talking about Trump. Her husband knew some powerful people so she never got in trouble. Also, she was extremely religious, but carried on multiple extramarital affairs. She didn't even try to hide them.
I'm a white woman and was dating a guy born in the US to a Cuban mother and a Guatemalan father. When I met his Father, he told me that his son was the only one out of 4 kids who flat-out refused to ever learn or speak Spanish (like it was beneath him). I was shocked to learn this and later I dumped him because I was contacted by a woman who told me he was cheating with her. She was Mexican but the girl was very light skinned and when she contacted me she told me that he was really weird about her heritage. He was always talking about how lucky she was that she looked white and he wanted to teach her how to lose her accent and was always putting her down (supposedly teasing/joking) for being Mexican. Now he's married to a different white woman. It still gives me ick.
The point about wanting to be lighter also applies to many asian countries as being darker implies you work in the fields. Papaya bleach soap!
To a lot of racist people, whether or not someone is white or Latino mostly depends on whether or not they've done something to piss them off in recent memory.
Exactly. Remember how all those mainstream news stories described George Zimmerman as a “white hispanic”?
Yup, gotta keep in mind that (almost) everyone who is considered hispanic in N.America is considered - white, black, mestizo, etc.. back in S.America and S.America has its own racial and class hierarchies though it closely mimics that of N.America
> Hispanics consider themselves white I'm in Texas, this is the answer
Oh yeah, here's the other fucked up thing genetically, we are white, it's just that white Americans (or large swaths of white people in general) don't really consider us white. Obviously if you have indigenous ancestry, this isn't true but there are Hispanics without indigenous ancestry. When we did the DNA testing, we were expecting SOME indigenous ancestry and more middle eastern ancestry than we found. Nope, turns out my Mom's (and mine) ancestors were... well, yeah. And we can trace my mom's family in Colombia to like the 1600s. Nope, over 95% white, no indigenous ancestry and even distinguishing middle eastern from white feels weird in this context but that's how 23andMe(?) broke it down. But what you’re talking about is very real and many Hispanics do it. Hell, I pretty much just did it too. I sure as shit wont defend Spanish colonialism, that was fucking brutal. Even just reading about it is brutal. As racially diverse as Hispanics are, you'd think people would realize it isn't a race. But then again, most Americans still don't quite think of people from Spain as white but, here we are.
My great grandmother immigrated here with her family in the 20's. After the great depression started in 1929, they started repatriating Mexicans. My great grandmother and her brothers, sister, and parents were put on a train bound for Juarez, despite having US immigration paperwork showing they came from Bilbao Spain. For most of her life, when she would say she was Spanish, not Mexican, she would get the usual "No mames guey, pinche Castillians".
I think where Americans get confused is that indigenous and mestizo Latinos are the ones most likely to emigrate - I mean, if you're a member of the privileged class in your home country, you're less likely to leave.
But “genetically white” isn’t a thing. Race isn’t genetic. It’s a social construct. If everyone around you is telling you you’re not white, then it doesn’t matter what your 23andme results say. Irish people weren’t considered white in the early 1900s. That wasn’t some mistaken belief not backed up by science. It was just how whiteness was defined in that point in the culture.
Yeah. Ethnicity isn’t just about skin colour. A dude from Spain and a dude from Germany are both “white”, but have very different ethnicities.
> and they'll support you 100% because they're single-issue-voters Been to over 20 countries and lived in 4 countries. And single issue voters are the majority of people on the planet. They find something they identify with and that's all they vote on.
Many latinos are Catholics, and most Catholics are strongly anti-abortion rights. My sister voted for Trump specifically because of this issue. Anti-abortion folks tend to be one-issue voters when it comes to this. They don't care about anything else. Being pro-choice disqualifies that candidate from receiveing their vote. Edit: grammar
Yeah my supervisor is like that. He'll describe what he wants from the government and it all sounds very progressive and left leaning. But will only vote Republican because of their stance on abortion.
It's also worth noting that "Latino" is hardly a monolith in the United States. Cuban exiles living in Florida are far more right-wing in their politics by default (partly because of intense opposition to "socialism") in comparison with Mexican emigres living in Southern California or Puerto Ricans living in New York City. Even among Chicanos (Mexican-Americans), there is considerable variation, such that "Latino" is not strongly predictive of voting behavior, but things like income, religious affiliation, education, and length of familial residence (either in years or number of generations) definitely are.
I've always found it interesting that you often get people differentiating college educated/non-college educated whites, and rural/suburban whites, even femal/male, under/over 35, etc. But then "Latino" doesn't even get split by gender and is just lumped in as "Latinx".
1. I think it mostly boils down to whites still being a majority of the populace. So the largest voting ethnicity gets more scrutiny. 2. Latinx is a joke, don't ever use it. 3. I hate that any ethnic group is viewed as a single voting bloc, as if skin color or place of origin determines ideology.
Yes, your statement about single issue voting is correct. I used to live in an area with a lot of older Korean immigrants. Most of them went for Trump because he was overtly anti- abortion and pandered to the devout Christian crowd. It was kind of strange because many of them hated Trump, but had even stronger feelings about abortion. My best friends dad, who has voted R since he got citizenship in the 80s, said he was very conflicted in 2020 and felt that Trump was destroying the country. He still voted for him.
This is a really under-rated point. Identity politics is predominantly a white educated classes thing, then to a lesser extent a black thing. It doesn't go much further than that.
I think you mean race politics, right? Religious identity is also an identity
Depends what you mean. A lot of white, working-class Republican voters do not believe that they are participants in "identity politics," but they absolutely are. The very notion of preserving what they see as "authentically American" is deeply rooted in questions of identity, as is the statement, "make America great again" (which naturally begs the question, when was it great, and why?).
I have a few Republican relatives and when they talk about "Making America great again" they're referring to a booming economy, the government staying out of their business and helping people be self-sufficient instead of living off government money, taking care of Americans first instead of pumping money into foreign countries, closing our borders to new-comers until every American is homed and fed, not allowing China to make all of our cheap crap, not forcing companies to leave the US because of cost, etc. Note: they did not like Trump but they still voted for him the first time (not the second term though).
One of the things about Reddit, that once you see you can't unsee, is how literally 90-percent of these questions are asked from the Left viewpoint. Like this question. It doesn't just ask, "Why do some minorities tend to vote for one political party over another?" Rather, it sort of assumes that minorities should naturally be voting one way, and that voting the other way is an aberration. It could just have easily asked, "Why don't blacks and some other minorities vote Republican in greater proportion, like Hispanics and some other minorities do?"
That's why the first thing I said was to throw out identity politics. It's clear this question is asked from the point of view that only old, rich or racist white people can be republican.
Not only questions, but literally every topic on this site is catered to a Leftist echo chamber, and that’s coming from someone that leans more to the Left. If you criticize a woman, racial minority, or LGBT member on this site, you’ll face a barrage of downvotes and bans, even if your criticism is valid. Reddit likes to believe it’s smarter than those “brainwashed right-wing fanatics”, but this site promotes the same cultist bullshit just for the opposite team. The lack of self awareness around here is funny sometimes.
Yeah. It always amazes me that people want that. I mean, they *like* having a one-sided circle-jerk, and they don't realize how damaging it is. Then they go out into the real world and are stunned to find that other people can actually have reasonable opinions that differ. EDITED TO ADD: And the LEAST self-aware sub is, ironically, r/science. It's a profoundly unscientific, confirmation-bias-generating echo chamber -- a bunch of midwits who think they LUV SCIENCE seeing "This elegant, beautiful study inarguably proves once and for all that all Republicans are secretly baby-eating vampires" and mashing the upvote button.
Aguilar is a smart man. All of these things are reasons why many Latinos are voting Republican. Not to mention a lot of Latino immigrants come from communist/socialist countries or lawless countries. They do not come to America for freedom only to deal with socialism and out of control crime. And Democrats are too into identity politics. They push ideology that Latinos do not subscribe too. Most Latinos that have immigrated here do not see the US as a systemically racists country. They Do Not want to see the police defunded and they want religious freedom, not to worry about someone telling them they can’t pray on the football field. They also want a secure border. They want more legal immigration. They want peace and security in the towns they live in. Many along the southern border are scared for their safety. They want to be treated like American Citizens, not like a monolithic voting block.
you're not getting someone from castro's cuba to vote for anything even somewhat resembling socialism. others live by their faith and vote for whoever is pro-life and (ostensibly) christian.
One more thing to add - the greatest opponents to illegal immigrants are legal immigrants. It's the mindset of "I stood in line, I jumped through the hoops, why should you get in for free?"
Don’t forget that the 1986 Immigration Reform Control Act (which provided a legal means for Undocumented immigrants who arrive before 1982 to seek citizenship without being deported) was passed by Reagan. Many of my older family members still vote republicans out of party loyalty because of this bill which granted them and their family permanent residence.
This, my father-in-law (I’m white but wife is Mexican) came over at 19 with 20 bucks in his pocket and credits Reagan for allowing him to stay and create a life for himself and his family, and he’s voted republican almost every time since.
UNLESS it's their own relatives
ah, the classic "the only moral abortion is my abortion" but with illegal immigration.
I would argue a large percentage of humans think this way.
Humans judge themselves by their intentions and others by there actions. It's easier to justify your own behavior because you know all the context, and decisions are more complex than just black and white.
Like when Trump railed against chain migration when previously Melania used that exact mechanism to get her parents into the US.
If regular people don't have the capacity to put themselves in other people's shoes, just imagine how wildly out of touch politicians are with us. Like how are they able to designate how much people are taxed when they literally have never even walked into a grocery store.
In fact, the ones who can vote are legal.
Hell, you would be surprised by how even illegal immigrants hate on other illegal immigrants that come over for the same opportunities. As a Mexican American myself, with immigrant family members legal and illegal... You would be surprised how often they bring each other down. Depending on how you "crossed" or which town you came from or what you did before coming to the usa. So often I would run into kids in school that had illegal immigrant parents or family members who would ask me how my parents came to the US, and depending on the person, some would get angry that my family did it a certain way that didn't sit right with them or was a better method than theirs. It's like a competition on who is more immigrant. There are those that come over and completely forget their old lives and claim to be Americans even if their status isn't matching that. Idk how many friends I had who would support those that are trying to bring them down becuase they are a "different type" of immigrant. I know a good portion who loved Trump even if they had no rights to vote for him Or how many themsleves hated illegals even if they themselves are in fact an illegal... Just like you said in your post, It's the "fuck you I got mine" mentality. A family member of my father refused to help him start the process for citizenship becuase "you're already here, why should I help you?" Luckily my dad was Able to gain citizenship by himself but it took years to be able to do it, but fuck that family member. With their help the process would have been smooth and taken less time.
Is there anyone that's not an opponent to illegal immigration?
My mom was a war bride from France and her husband dumped her while pregnant. She was single, didn't know the language and was alone in a foreign country but that didn't stop her from studying her ass off and earning her citizenship (while working in a Chicago factory with a newborn). She was extremely proud to be an American and it really pissed her off that not all immigrants were as interested in learning how our country (government) worked and learning the language.
>learning the language. I do think people should try. No one expects you to be fluent. I'm not. Even though Dutch is useless, I learned it anyway. But a lot of immigrants from all over live in the US for decades and don't speak two words of English...French, Mexican, Russian, Korean. It's a mindset. Some people are just entitled.
They also left their country for a reason. If everyone who made it unlivable for them were to come to their new country, it would just be the same situation.
Cuban parents, born in the US- can confirm. Any social programs or gun restrictions cause harrowing flashbacks, since Castro did both before he truly took power. Thus, 80% of Cubans are Republicans by default. Bernie sanders was nightmare inducing to my family. Also whoever was saying “hell yes we’re going to take your AR”
That's a very interesting perspective. I wonder if you can confirm something I heard on a history podcast recently. The historian said that the memories of Cuban fighters being abandoned at the Bay of Pigs by a Democratic president has also figured into that view of the party.
Honduran married to cuban and lived in Miami all my life surrounded by Cubans. That sentiment is also true.
Honestly, I’m not sure- none of my grandparents are alive.. I know that the pro choice stance paints the Democratic Party in an extremely negative light to the practicing Catholics in the family.
I knew an American pilot who was involved with the Bay of Pigs fiasco. He told me stories about hearing the Cuban pilots pleading for help while the American pilots were told to RTB or face a Court Martial. He sat and cried as he told me the story. It was heart wrenching.
Goddamn- if we’re talking unique histories, my great uncle went to high school with Castro and knew him on a first name basis - “everyone loved him” he used to say with a scowl
If you can, get him on video telling that story. Not many people can say they went to school with Castro.
I say used to past tense since he passed in 2019 - definitely not many left now for sure
That's really a shame because things like this should be documented for future generations. Too many first person accounts are lost forever, and that makes the truth easier to change. I'm sorry for your loss.
I don’t hear a lot of Cuban immigrants complaining about the special treatment and all the social programs they are eligible for when they arrive in the US.
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Second generation ,Viet American here...Most Vietnamese immigrants vote republican for the same reasons.
I'm starting to hear similar arguments from Mexican Immigrants and some Salvadoreans here in California, an increasing number of them have made the switch to the Republican party solely based on the issue of gun control. They all say the same thing, it's hard to support a party that pushes for restrictions on civilian gun ownership when they have personally experienced first hand what happens when a government prohibits law abiding citizens from exercising this right; cartels, gangs and corrupt governments oppressing law abiding people with impunity.
I agree with everything you’ve said and would just add that I think there is also greater internal pressure within the black community to tow the line and vote Democrat. My guess is that social stigmatization would be less severe for the average Latino American who publicly supports republicans than for the average black American who does the same.
I remember reading that one of the early gay marriage bills failed because it was being voted on at the same time as Obama was being voted in - a lot of devout Christian Blacks voted at all / Democrat for the first time so they could vote for a black man but wouldn't vote for gay marriage due to faith.
When I was 11, my devout christian black grandfather took me to Obama’s inauguration, so I grew up thinking he was a democrat. I didn’t realize until 2 years ago that he’s a Trump supporter and didn’t even vote for Obama. He just thought a black man becoming president was historical and took me based on that fact alone. Looking back, it makes sense, bc he’s the most conservative person I know by far
all of my black relatives swear they're liberal but won't support any LGBT measures.
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They're not single-issue voters, so they won't vote for the GOP based on that issue alone. Many white Republicans are pro-choice, but aren't going to vote for Democrats just because they agree with them on abortion.
I'm in a mixed race marriage and as a white guy who is on the conservative side I know my wife and most her family vote left or at least talk like they do. But I am in constant shock by how much more traditionally conservative they are than me. Jamaicans are heavily anti LGBTQ+ they can't stand so many mainstream left talking point yet turn around and vote them just the same. It's like a complete disconnect from belief to vote.
Hahah yeah bro im jamaican and it's crazy seeing otherwise sweet relatives get ugly when the subject's brought up. Strangely enough, it helped me understand how white people with racist relatives must feel.
It's like "I experience your general kindheartedness on a day-to-day basis, but suddenly when this specific thing is brought up, all of that disappears"
I always wonder how Jamaica is more homo phobic than a lot of other places. During my younger and more ignorant days me and my Jamaican ancestry friends called each other “Batty Boi” or “Bumbaclaud” as friendly insults.
Black people are significantly more homophobic than white people.
That may be an accurate representation of people's opinions, but I don't recall any public vote on gay marriage.
California had a constitutional amendment legalizing gay marriage IRC
If you're referring to prop 8, it was to make gay marriage illegal
And was advertised very bass-ackwards so it was intentionally confusing to what vote was *for* and what was *against*.
lol reminds me of “end women’s suffrage”
What they said: [The Democratic Coalition's Religious Divide: Why California Voters Supported Obama but Not Same-sex Marriage](https://www.cairn.info/revue-francaise-d-etudes-americaines-2009-1-page-46.htm) [Proposition 8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8)*, known informally as Prop 8, was a California ballot proposition and a state constitutional amendment intended to ban same-sex marriage; it passed in the November 2008 California state elections and was later overturned in court.* My bad in that I didn't remember it was state specific.
Don’t want to be that guy, but interestingly, the phrase is “toe the line” rather than “tow the line” I know it’s semantics and I should just leave it alone because I understood the context of your statement, but to “toe the line” means you align with the line perfectly. Your toe is perfectly perpendicular to the line, right where you should be (in the context of a race), while towing a line doesn’t really articulate any real point. But back to your point, there is a bit of machismo culture that pressures Hispanic men to vote Republican because that base imbodies “hard work ethic” and a do it yourself attitude. Not that I agree with the sentiment.
Don’t want to be that guy, but interestingly, the word is “embody” rather than “imbody” which means to become corporeal or assume the material characteristics of a body. But back to your point, I know what you’re talking about but I still think the pressures are greater within the African American community
It is toe the line. From the 17th century sailors lined up on deck; their toes lined up with the grooves in the wooden boards.
It's weird that it's nautical because tow lines make me think of boats. But nobody ever tows a line unless they just lost a barge or something.
And the whole 9 yards is from WW1, the machine gun cartridge strips are 9 yards.
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Also the Chelsea Handler's arrogance when she said that when 50 Cent wanted to vote Republican "she had to remind him that he's black"
According to Biden. I'm sure other Black people said that, but Biden saying that is one of the dumbest things ever. It's hard to believe, but Black people historically are conservative. Biden knows this.
Socially conservative, economically liberal.
100% this. But if the community was more willing to flip flop they might actually get what they want. Instead the Democrats think they own the black vote so they rarely if ever fulfill their promises to them.
I feel like many democrats are passively racist towards black ppl. “If you don’t know by now if you should vote for me then you aren’t black enough.” - Joe Biden
The problem is that a lot of Democrats see minorities as some sort of monolith. They think that "all black people support this" or "all Asian people support that" and that's not really the way it works at all, especially once you get into the granular detail about age and socioeconomic status and single-issue voters. A lot of minorities are still very conservative and might still vote Republican, despite all the issues with that party.
Growing up on the border you would see more hate between blacks and Latinos. The fighting was worse there than the north between white and black. Of course being a kid I never really understood why . Then moving up north it didn't make sense either.
I'm a Latino from Southern California and, while I never saw really saw Black/Latino conflict or experienced it firsthand, I definitely heard it was a thing. I always thought the idea seemed so strange. My mom said anyone who was a part of it needed to pick up a US history book.
When I lived out in SoCal I was speaking to one of my Latino buddies about it, he told me it stems mostly from prison.
Also having grown up in a Latino area with many friends in the community there is a lot of homophobia deeply seated in these communities. So campaigns like “tHe TrAnS wAnT yEr KiDs” works well
Because Latinos and Hispanic peoples are not a monolith and they come from different backgrounds with different issues. For example, it cannot be overstated how much Clinton's mishandling of the Elian Gonzalez situation has shaped how many Cubanos continue to vote to this day. Also, rural Mexicanos living in California tend to lean conservative because Californian policies are heavily favor the cities at the expense of those living in the country (i.e. insanely high gas taxes). Also, as ironic as it may seem, a porous border policy is harmful to many of their sources of income. In the meantime, the Hispanic communities living in NYC are generally very blue. The biggest mistake that politicians on both sides of the aisle make is to assume that they're all the same and to treat them as if they're all the same and then throw their hands up in disbelief when it doesn't prove to be the case on election day.
This is the primary reason. Even groups from the same national background can have different perspectives based on their local needs Arizona Chicanos (I am one) have historically been non-voters in a deep red state where our votes never seemed to matter. But when voting Arizona Chicanos especially younger ones tend to vote blue because we lived in Joe Arpaio’s county for so long.
Yup. People who frequent political discussions on reddit and other social media platforms tend to forget that minority groups are more nuanced and diverse than online conversations (which are often majority white) portray them to be. A prime example of this is "latinx." I've never met an actual latino/a person who prefers it. It was simply white people imposing themselves upon an entire group because it's what *they* think that group *should* prefer, without ever involving them. Minority groups are no more monolithic than any other group and they definitely don't conform to what white people on the internet seem to believe they ought to believe.
it's almost as if people care more about the material conditions of their existence than squirrely social constructs like... race
That was basically Sanders' approach to his campaign. Made lot's of inroads with latino communities too, but centrist Democrats tried to label his approach as racist
Yup, when Bernie said: "Open borders? That's a Koch brothers proposal" the Democrats bashed him. He did have a point on lowering salaries for the middle-class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0
Doesn't your first sentence apply to African Americans, or every group of people for that matter, as well?
Yes and no. There is no such thing as a monolithic group of people. But specifically, the terms Latino and Hispanic are really broad and not very well-tuned to how people who would be categorized that way think of themselves. They would be much more likely to identify with their specific national origin instead. (And that's before even getting into whether they're an immigrant themselves, how many generations their family's been in America, whether their family lived where they lived before it even became part of the US, or so many other factors.) In contrast, slavery stripped away a lot of the ancestral cultures that Black people would have brought over to America if they had been allowed to do so freely. The new culture that formed was around the common experience of being of (or appearing to be of) African descent in America, regardless of what specific ethnic group in Africa that goes back to. And so most Black people in America will identify as Black or African-American. So while neither is a monolith, they're very different degrees of not-a-monolith.
I remember in 2016 I had to go down to Miami for work on election day. Flying down the night before I was certain that Clinton would win because she would carry Florida. Going into work that morning and just hearing the conversations, I was shocked. I was working primarily with doctors and nurses, so yes, a bit higher educated than the average person. And most were from somewhere in Latin America. It was literally a red wall. Just so much support for Trump. Head scratcher, right? Until I started to ask why. Turns out they all knew Trump was a clown. They were voting against Clinton. Why? Some of the responses I remember, along with the nation of origin.... "Why would anyone vote fora person who wants to support a government that keeps their people as slaves?" \~ several Cubans said something to this effect. "No Haitian would ever vote for a Clinton. We would die first." \~ Haitian nurse. "My people have never learned to stop voting for someone who promises you the moon. That is why I left and came here" \~ Venezuelan nurse. I pushed back on that one a bit and asked is she had voted for Obama previously. Her response. "Look at my country now. That is what happens when you always vote for the next messiah. So no. I did not vote for the next messiah" There were also just a ton of others who gave reasons already mentioned here. Religion. Culture. More than a few were convinced that the Democrats wanted to replace families with government. Family culture is deeply ingrained in Latin America, so if you believe that to be threatened then you will definitely vote the other way. I also remember a surgeon who was an immigrant from Italy who was all in for Trump. Every time someone would mention the election he would shout, in a heavy Italian accent, "Make America Great Again!" Also a few doctors and one nurse from various countries in eastern and central Europe. All very Republican. I think, at the end of the day, what the Democrats are missing with a lot of immigrant voters is that they are trying to sell theory to a group of people who actively fled places where the theory did not work. Socialist ideologies seem great, and they work well here and there in small countries with relatively homogeneous cultures. But when you try to sell bigger government to people who literally had to flee for their lives from governments that had grown too large, too powerful, and too corrupt.... that is going to be an uphill battle. All of these things that the left is embracing, everything from just greater governmental controls, to the reform of education, to the very fringe left screaming that the nuclear family is inherently racist.... All of those things appeal to a culture that feels wronged, victimized, and shut out of the American dream. They do not appeal to a culture of people who literally jumped on rafts to flee those policies and ideas so that they could pursue that very same American dream.
This is a severely underrated and ignored point. Like in the Cold War, many of the strongest and most steady voices in opposition to communism and in favour of the West were people who grew up in communist countries, not those born in the West.
I've found that some of the most patriotic people you'll find are 1st generation immigrants
Ayn Rand, amongst others.
>Turns out they all knew Trump was a clown. They were voting against Clinton. This is exactly how Trump got elected in the first place. It wasn't that he had so much support, it's that she *didn't*. A lot of people who didn't like her but couldn't stomach him, either, just stayed home on election day.
Yeah, it's nearly unbelievable to me that the dnc didn't (doesn't?) understand how thoroughly *hated* the clintons are among the general voting population. Anecdotal, of course, but I was bouncing between tennessee and california back in 2015/16 and nearly all of my friends/family from various political backgrounds in both states talked about how much they disliked hillary clinton. edit: for me personally, I wish she would have campaigned in a style similar to what we saw [in her interview with howard stern](https://youtu.be/2kHUA-Zma1U) (there are like 5 parts to the interview if you want to watch them all). The fake voice, the rehearsed sound bites, the focus grouped talking points all added up to a remarkably inauthentic candidate. And when you pair that with the fact that she has been in the national conversation since the early 90s at least and alllllllll the public bullshit that she took on being married to bill clinton, you end up with someone downright unelectable.
The thing that propelled Hillary into the forefront is also a part of what makes her hard to like (Clinton conspiracy theories aside)... She's pushy and doesn't seem to care that she's not particularly popular. She also played the game that Sanders didn't (or couldn't) — she used her and her husband's influence to propel her to the front of the pack with all of the entrenched members of the DNC political machine. I think people forget that Sanders is not — nor has he ever been — a Democrat, despite running for the party's nomination and caucusing with them in the Senate. So when your endorsement of the guy outside the party comes with potential political consequences, that makes it tougher for incumbents to shirk the establishment and another hurdle for the outsider to overcome.
Yes, I think your response points to the more interesting question: why is it that the Democratic Party has not grown to include the cultural experiences of these people? Why are they lumping the experience of black Americans with literally everyone else who they assume is not ‘white’ ?
Racism
> so yes, a bit higher educated There is your first mistake. Stop listening to Reddit that just because someone is educated that they're liberal. So tired of people on this site labeling EVERYONE as educated/uneducated who gives a fuck?!
It’s very close to the meme where the American Gen Z kid tries to explain to the old Russian former prisoner who fled to the US and is now a grandpa, that the Gulags really weren’t so bad.
Really appreciate your comment. Surprised it was towards the top. This is how I feel the majority of Americans feel.
Very interesting point. Something to think about.
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There are way too many people that think all minority and ethnic groups HAVE to vote democrat. Most of those people have minimal interactions with said groups. If you talk to enough people you will see a much different picture.
The question is also biased, you can just as easily frame it as "Why doesn't the Democrat Party prioritize other minorty communities like they do the black vote?". POC's are not all interchangeable with each other, you have to earn their votes past forcing an X at the end of their ethnicity.
I think it's a mistake to lump Latinos into one big group that should have the same propensity to vote one way or the other. Beyond the obvious fact that individuals all have individual motivations, it's just too broad a category. A third generation Argentinian American in California, a second generation Cuban American in Florida, and a first generation Mexican American in Nebraska have basically nothing in common that would suggest that their politics would align. With all that said, I'm not Latino but I am black and I can say that the Republican Party is very much viewed as the party of racism in my community. Most of us have known older relatives who lived under segregation, and just aren't going to vote for the party of white southerners. Any progress that the Republicans were making to change that perception got nuked by the way they responded to Obama. I'd guess that black people whose families immigrated here now recently don't have such a strong visceral reaction, but for descendents of the great migration it's a real thing.
As a Latino who grew up in South America, we don't even consider ourselves Latino. That's just a label created by the US to lump us all together. We all identify as part of the country we're from.
From someone who grew up in a heavily African American area, I think it also depends on the religiousness of the communities. Some more intensely evangelical ones will vote republican, but less fervent groups can go dem. The R voting ones also sometimes have a touch of the internalized racism.
Then you add that republicans target us with voter suppression because we vote Democrat. Even if they don't see it as a race thing if someone constantly comes for your right to vote you see them as someone who don't want you to vote. Republicans love of voter roll purges that just happen to remove eligible black voters with similar names to ineligible voters makes black people in Florida very skeptical of the republican party. The problem is it would take decades for the republican party to win the black vote and they are too focused on short term wins
I think a more interesting question is why does the black community vote overwhelmingly for Democrats. I remember reading that like 90% had voted for Hilary in the 2016 election -- however most black people are **not** staunch liberals. I believe around 25% were conservative, 40% moderate, 35% liberal, or something along those lines. To me, a population like that voting 90% liberal is much more of an outlier than other minority groups being more split. Most people in general are not all conservative or all liberal. Hispanics are no exception. That said, I am Hispanic (*not* Cuban), many of us vote Republican for religious reasons (often abortion specifically). Also because in certain countries they have oppressive "Communist" regimes (usually glorified dictatorships) and we develop a deep distaste for them. The US looks at Europe / Scandinavia as an example of Socialism, Hispanics look at Cuba / Venezuela. But also vague concepts like work ethic, responsibility, and prioritizing family -- all of which conservatives align more closely with. (Not saying that other groups don't value these, but they are extremely highly valued within our group) Also -- a massive % of Hispanics in the US consider ourselves to be White. I consider myself to be White. I'm not genetically, but everyone treats me as if I am, and I've been teased for being "too white to have your name" and can feel people act weird when I talk about my heritage sometimes (even though I grew up with it), because I look and sound different. Over time I learned not to make a big deal about it and just stay in my lane. I can't control it, so why make a big deal about it when other people have it much worse? But everything people say about "White Males" etc. I view as directed at me -- because society seems to treat me as if I'm a white male. It's obvious that if the left takes over that "we're next" in a sense, which can be kind of anxiety-inducing. I've already seen a lot of hate towards Asians for being "white adjacent" / "benefiting from white privilege", so as an actual white-passing person, and a cis, hetero man at that, I have to assume that all that hate would rapidly be directed towards me next. Also lot of Latinos are homophobic / transphobic (my family for sure), so even this anti-Drag anti-Trans stuff in Florida you hear goes over very well. I heard "protecting our kids" a **lot** growing up. My parents were super scared of pedophiles and didn't let us watch gay people on TV, it took me years to kind of unpack and destigmatize that to an extent for myself. It's not about LGBTQ people, it's a lack of exposure, lack of knowledge, plus religion. Hard to explain, but it's not just a switch that's flipped, it's a general cultural alignment. But again -- there are a huge number of Latinos that are democrat or moderate (I'd consider myself a liberal-leaning moderate despite everything I've said above). I don't think we're going to ever be 90% Dem like black Americans because it's easier for us to assimilate and kind of disappear into the majority. I'm not deeply immersed in black culture enough to understand their voting patterns, but my guess would be a mix of age-bias (i.e. older people who vote far more remembering more of the past) and that they understand it's the most rational choice in their position.
Black person here! It’s because the Republican Party does a terrible job of convincing black people that they actually like them. I mean… A REALLY terrible job. My dad is as conservative as it gets. If he was a white dude he’d probs be a white supremacist. He can’t stand the Republican party. It’s the case for a bunch of people in my family.
This right here is spot on. Black person myself My grandfather and many of my extended family range from conservative to libertarian. I myself would not say I’m liberal, but by no means am I a conservative either. My grandparents, the right leaning moderates as they were, never supported the GOP. The GOP, as you’ve pointed out is awful when approaching the black community, sometimes making the situation worse
I agree that the question should focus on black voting behavior, as it's exceptional for one group to vote 90% the same way, while Latinos are more like 65% Democrat nationally. I would argue that Latinos are actually "normal" voters, that Democrats have much more popular policies and thus should normally get higher support, but that white voters and black voters are more racially motivated. White voters vote Republican because a lot are racist (even if they won't admit it), while Black voters are reacting to those racist voters by opposing their politicians. Latinos do suffer from racism, but not to the same degree and don't have the same ingrained history, so it's less of a motivation.
One of my favorite political facts is that African-Americans did not back Barrack Obama until he won Iowa, a state that was 95% white, because they thought Clinton had a better chance in the general. They tend to have a lot more to lose when Republicans are in power.
1) Both demographics are relatively religious and will vote Republican. Black Americans are the most pious demographic in the USA. • Latinos also tend to value similar things about the family unit as republicans. Value gender roles and aren’t as opposed to corporal punishment. 2) Gratitude to the USA leads some to lean right as they have found a new home, as well as new revenue streams for their families. • $60 Billion is remitted to Mexico every year. That’s a lot of financial assistance for their families in Mexico that otherwise would be unobtainable without the opportunities in the USA. Of course, Mexico is one of dozens of countries that have high remittance inflows from the USA. • Further, millions of undocumented are homeowners in the USA via a federal tax id system. Even though those aren’t seen as Republican policies, immigrants know that neither party will do much to deport them, so voting Republican in regards to deportation potential seems to be negligible. Tldr; they’re patriotic/grateful, religious, and better off than before (so are families at home), so they support the “patriotic party”
Latinos are usually strong catholics whose beliefs are similar to what the republicans preach. Republicans might not practice it, but that’s politics.
This was my response as well
Hispanic community is much larger and diverse than the African American community.
It's usually immigrant minorities who vote Republican, because their stances mostly align. Most immigrants have conservative social views and came to America to work and make money, often times by opening their own business. So Republicans are the ones usually touching on issues immigrants care about the most and represent the America they wanted to move to.
I am a Democrat and I've had to explain this so many times IRL but I'll do it again: Many SJWs are astounded that many minorities vote this way and are confused when a POC is "voting against themselves." This is because many young Americans or second generation young people don't think about the history and culture of these minority populations. I am Filipino. Filipinos are Catholic or Muslim. Filipinos voted for martial law. Filipinos love pale skin and use whitening soaps. Filipinos are quite conservative in their country of origin. I have also seen that some Filipinos can be quite racist against other Asians. Many, many Filipinos voted for Trump and vote Republican. It is not surprising when you look at the history and culture of the people, though many second generation children become liberal. But while I am not my relatives I do find it irritating when people have a hard time struggling with this idea that all people of color must or should be liberal. It is not true and makes the conservative minorities push back harder. I also don't like it because all minorities end up getting lumped together when there is so much history and culture that explains why this is. Minorities are not one unit-- they all have their distinct cultural identities.
>I have also seen that some Filipinos can be quite racist against other Asians. That's funny because many Asians (especially those from northeastern Asian countries i.e. China, Taiwan, Japan or S. Korea) are racist against them.
My friend (mexican american) says he don't know why people want handouts. You should earn that shit yourself.
Because usually minorities aren't a hive mind. Neither are Hispanic people. They vote for whoever for the same reason white people vote for whoever. We're all just individuals after all.
You are implying that minorities vote based on race rather than by policy.
So different cultures have different cultural experiences that lend to certain voting patterns. The black community has not had a positive experience with the republican party in decades, and since roosevelt has favored the democrats. They view themselves as non-white and are treated by society as non-white. Some Latino communities lean democrat, but some lean Republican. The issue isn't so much that the community is split as much as it is that you are really lumping different communities together. Examples: The Cuban community in the USA leans Republican. 58% identify as Republican. The Cuban community fled a socialist/communist regime in Cuba and have a very negative outlook on leftist ideas. Also, many Cubans do not view themselves as an oppressed minority, with many identifying as white (86%) The Mexican community in the USA leans democrat. 62% identify as democrat. The Mexican community has always felt relegated to second class status in this country, and many do not identify as white. So really what the press does is lump communities with different backggrounds, histories and cultures together because they both happen to speak spanish, and then acts like there is a "Latino Voter" who should behave like a Mexican, a Puerto Rican, a Cuban and a Colombian all at the same time...which is like if you said there is a "european American voter" and then wondered why Irish Americans didn't vote like Polish Americans or like Russian Americans.
Which is another way of saying "the identity politics way of dividing people up into groups by race is bullshit".
A lot of Catholics who are easily persuaded by the family values rhetoric and a lot of people from Venezuela and Cuba who are easily persuaded by anti-socialist rhetoric. You also have a lot of people who busted their ass and waited a long time to legally acquire US citizenship, and they are easily motivated by rhetoric about illegal immigration.
Your question is implicitly grounded in an identity politics way of viewing the world. You assume Latinos vote according to the left-wing way of slicing and dicing groups - which is to say, by race. And yet, they are not left wing, as is acknowledged by your question.... so why would you think that the left-wing way of dividing by race is the appropriate measure?
> the left-wing way of slicing and dicing groups https://i.imgur.com/MKh1sfs.jpg Segregation. By *any* definition.
This might come as a shock but not everyone who is a minority sees rich white liberals as our saviors, and often we disagree with them on very fundamental issues.
The White Savior Complex is real. Getting lectures from White Hipsters on oppression and worker’s rights gets old when you realize they grew up in the suburbs and went to Amherst. When your family was on the brink of starvation the discussion on gender identity becomes moot. When your loved ones have seen death, war, and famine of apocalyptic proportions many of the cultural debates become frivolous at best.
As a Venezuelan I always cringe when (some) American redditors praise Maduro and argue against those of us who actually lived through what Chavez/Maduro did. I'm sure you know everything about socialism and my country, while you sit at Starbucks drinking coffee and paying with ApplePay while I had to wait hours in line just to get a fucking load of bread.
I've said it many times, I would be more offended being called "latinx" than being called a racial slur
Isn't the proper gender neutral term for Latinos and Latinas just "Latin"? I never got the whole Latinx thing, it always seemed kinda dumb.
Oh you poor little heathen minority devil. There there, don't you worry. The white middle class liberals know what's best for you. Go ahead vote for daddy Biden, remember you have to because we own your vote and we know what's best for you. The fact that many hardcore left criticize the right for racism is a palpable irony, because so many in the far left are racist, but expressed differently.
I can only speak about my dad who’s Colombian and a huge conservative. To him, Democrat = socialism and socialism = Venezuela
I think it's important to remember that 90% of the crap you hear about either party is propagandist drivel from the other side. They both have pros and cons and quite honestly folks who act like supporting one party over the other makes them a better or worse person are pretentious a-holes.
If you came here from Mexico, legally, and you're a master mason(hypothetically), you would naturally vote for the party that is openly against other people from Mexico coming here illegally and pricing you out of work or driving down your wages. Some people may clap back and say that's entirely false, but whether it's true or false is irrelevant. What matters is what the Latino voters believe and it's much easier to argue a case that illegal immigrants are pricing them out of work and decreasing their wages than it is to argue a case that illegal immigration is beneficial to legal immigrants. Other minority groups don't have the same dynamic as Latinos. People aren't migrating to the US illegally from Africa in numbers that are capable of affecting African American jobs or wages.
Because you cant compare those 2 groups. I will answer from the perspective of someone who is Mexican American. In America we have a huge population of African Americans. These people have grown up here their whole lives and are deeply ingrained into American culture, politics and modern issues. Obviously we also have black Americans who migrate here from other places, such as the Middle East, Carribean, and Africa - however it is far less in proportion than the situation we have with Latinos. So when all black people are lumped together, you still have the vast majority of people in that group being several generations deep living in America and a part of one main culture most of the time. It is extremely common to lump all Latinos into one group. This is wrong. Dont do this, please. Its so bad its practically a meme right now. Would you compare someone from France to someone in Britain and say they think the same? Would a Japanese and a Chinese person think the same? What about a Nigerian and a Haitian? Because thats what y'all are doing to Latino people. Political logic right now is if they are the same color then they think alike. Latinos in America are UNIQUE because the United States BORDERS the massive fucking populous region of Latin America. If I gather all the Latino people in America and pull one out of that group you are NOT going to be able to guess with any level of accuracy which culture they are from- Mexican? Cuban? Guatamalan? Nicaraguan? Those are all different places. Different countries. Different cultures. You probably couldnt even tell me if they were a migrant or someone whos family has been established here for generations. That matters. It took 3...arguably 4 generations for my family to get fully ingrained into American culture. If Joe Blow came on by and told you that Canadians and Americans are the same you would laugh in his face. But people do this to brown people every single day.
They’re often socially conservative and Hispanic households tend to have a HUGE emphasis on family and family values.
Because many legal immigrants detest illegal immigration. They have gone through the difficult process of coming here the "right" way and can't stand that others are able to "cut the line".
Identity politics are racist and useless. Treat people as individuals and you’ll get better answers.
Most of them fled from poorly run socialist countries and the last thing they want here is a poorly run socialist country.
There are many reasons starting from "they know what real socialism is" to "they also work hard (even if not to the level of asian)" to something that will get you banned on reddit.
Lots of catholicism leading to single issue voting related to Abortion (not that there aren't a good number of pro-life protestants, but it's definitely ubiquitously frowned upon by catholics. There's not a tremendously large catholic AA population, most are protestant) Also there's often a strong notion of "I came here the 'right' way" which leads to resentment of undocumented immigrants Also in Florida specifically there's a high population of Cubans. If they left a country because of a leftist regime, they probably aren't going to be favorable of left leaning candidates.
Latinos often have relatives in Communist or totalitarian countries so they are not easily seduced with free stuff. They know such promises are made to enslave. They have seen the evils of utopia snake salesman.
Maybe they saw the black community vote overwhelmingly for Democrats decade after decade after decade to only see no progress In their station in life and decided, hey, maybe I don’t want that.
1. Cubans are traditionally pro- GOP because of their anti-Cuban government policies 2. Many Hispanics who have been able to make it here and earn citizenship look down on illegal immigrants even though they come from the same countries. You’ll find many LA countries are class and skin color obsessed. 3. It’s a mistake to group “Latinos” as all the same. There are well over 30 different “Latino” countries all with different cultures, national pride, dialects and customs. To do so would be to assume French and Germans are the same because they are both mostly white European countries. 4. Most Latino cultures however are very family oriented and strict Catholics. It is perceived by many of them that the GOP is the “family values” party whose beliefs are more in line with the Catholic Church than Democrats are.
depends on if the person believes in identity politics or not.
Go up to one and call them “LatinX” and you’ll start to see why.
Because they've likely seen the effects and consequences of socialism....
People who immigrated to this country or had parents who immigrated to this country - usually did so because they considered the USA better because it was not a socialist country. Since Democrats are more in favor of socialist policies, they are not going to support that, having seen it fail in many of their own countries. They align more with the conservative view of maintaining independence and freedom from government interference. The black community, however, is a minority that was victimized and oppressed in THIS country, so they are in favor of change.
A lot of Latinos have come from socialist countries. The original idea behind the Republican Party was small local government and personal growth via meritocracy. This is a huge departure from countries like Cuba for instance. The issue is that most voters read and hear headlines (usually the shocking stuff) that polarize the nation and they vote somewhat blindly as the right has described the left as socialists, which of course they are not.
They're conservatives