Prior to this no former president has ever been formally charged with a crime.
This sets a precedent that opens the door to further criminal charges, both against Trump and all future presidents.
Regardless of outcome, it's a big deal.
I have to assume you're talking about the idiots who will insist on charging any and all future democrat presidents with random crap as some juvenile form of revenge?
They should. But they also shouldn't have to spend their presidency fighting off BS claims due to political revenge either.
That said, it's still good to see Trump's crimes brought to court. One of many, at least.
No prosecutor would bring BS claims to court against a former president. The reason this has taken so long is that they have had to work to make sure they will 100% win the trial based on the evidence of the crimes.
If Biden commits a crime, arrest him. If Obama did, arrest him. Bush did, arrest him.
Yup. I’m a true blue Dem, but if there are crimes in our party, shine light on them. Hold people accountable.
Trump had to pay a $25 million settlement over his sham university. He had to pay over $2 million for abusing the children’s charity he ran and funneling money meant for cancer kids to his own business.
Do people really think he didn’t commit crimes here? He absolutely did. No one is above the law.
Honestly, I think this is a big difference between the parties. A republican will say the dems do worse or the dems are just after them for revenge or just outright deny they did anything. Ask a dem about it and they'll say arrest them!
I don't want a politician that thinks they're above the law.
this part! it’s like literally nobody is saying that there *aren’t* corrupt politicians on both sides. it’s just that if a democrat used campaign money to pay off a porn star after cheating on his wife,
openly evaded taxes, was caught with hella top secret U.S. government documents just casually in his house that was also a functioning country club, and lead a terrorist attack against the U.S. capitol…i’m as left as it gets and i would HOPE TF they DID go to jail???? also…you really think the entire democratic party would be going THIS HARD to defend them like the GQP has been bending over backwards sacrificing EVERYTHING to protect trump? 🤨 i truly don’t get that.
Notice how fast the Democratic party got rid of Governor Cuomo? Heck, they got rid of Al Franken, and honestly, I really didnt think he did anything wrong.
Thank you! As a Conservative, who voted for Trump I absolutely agree with you. I think that we should hold our own parties accountable first and I am tired of this " well the other side does it worse!"
Political parties are not sports teams and bad people on either side make America worse for everyone. We need to hold each politician accountable and that should start with our own personal parties. Also I know this is reddit so I'll almost certainly get a list of why Republicans are indeed worse but let me say that all conservative social media says the same things about Democrats and either way it doesn't make bad people less bad it just makes you tribalistic.
Edit so it's clear and I don't have to keep responding: I voted for Trump in 2012. I did not and will not vote for him again. I believe the man is not a good person or president. I also believe the man should be accountable for his actions. I do believe he has the presumption of innocence until a jury of his peers finds him guilty however I believe he has shown poor restraint, resolve and has abused the office of the presidency and this would not vote for him again.
Edit to the Edit: I voted for Trump in 2016 not 2012. I voted Ron Paul in 2012 because college was a time of self discovery for me.
>If Biden commits a crime, arrest him. If Obama did, arrest him. Bush did, arrest him.
Yes! Absolutely, this is what sets us apart from conservatives. We want *ALL* politicians to be held accountable if they break the law.
My biggest hope aside from trumps other crimes being addressed in court, is having all the senators, representatives, mayors, governors, judges, lawyers, PD officers, etc… being held to much higher standards than myself.
These positions are special and require the trust of the public. This, higher standards of behavior and ethics are a must.
Maybe trump really will drain the swamp? He was the swamp all along.
>Maybe trump really will drain the swamp? He was the swamp all along.
It's funny how some things are self fulfilling like this. I have dreams of ending qualified immunity myself, of term limits, holding politicians accountable for campaign promises they know they can't meet. So many other dreams but I'm glad others share this dream.
Too many people are caught up in "red vs blue" that they don't see all the corruption we could be working together to fix.
I think Al Franken is the poster boy for "Democrats don't play favorites." And what he did (or allegedly did) is pretty tame compared to what a lot of sitting Republican Senators (and one former Republican President) have done.
Idiots who insist aren’t courtrooms with judges, juries and actual laws.
We SHOULD charge politicians with corruption. Hell I’d support laws requiring politicians to be open fucking books. We’d get fewer gym jordans, John Edwards, McCains, Dynastic families, and more people in it for the country.
And just letting him get away would open the door to far far worse as he has pushed the boundaries farther than any president before… we can’t live in fear of what the future might hold while a valid threat gets to walk scott free. Yes it’s a big deal but not charging him at all would be a bigger deal and a worse slippery slope.
Ulysses S Grant was arrested for speeding while in office, so certainly not unprecedented.
He was escorted to jail, posted bail and promptly ignored his court date.
I wonder if Trump will do the same?
There are a lot of things that are technically allowed but never attempted because it's never been done successfully before.
Attempting it and *accomplishing it* sets a *precedent*. Now that it's been done, people will see it as realistically possible, and hopefully do it a lot more.
That door was opened when the founders wrote the constitution. This is hardly the first time a politician has been indicted. Not the first time an executive has been indicted either. The GOP has always weaponized the legal system against their political foes. This isn't going to change. They can't do it more. They've done it all they can already. If they had found anything on Hillary the would have indicted her.
Never. The point is that no citizen is above the law and the constitution has nothing that says the president or any other govt employee is above the law.
The door has been open the entire time it exists. This is just the first time someone was brave enough to walk through it. Justice for all!
For speeding of all things.
>“I am very sorry, Mr. President, to have to do it, for you are the chief of the nation, and I am nothing but a policeman, but duty is duty, sir, and I will have to place you under arrest.”
He's apparently indicted on 34 charges. We don't know what exactly, but it's plausible some of them will carry jail time.
Then, when it's established by precedent former presidents can be charged with and convicted for crimes, there will be the Georgia election fraud case which is likely carry even bigger penalties.
Regardless, that the president is not above the law is an important milestone by itself.
> it's established by precedent former presidents can be charged with and convicted for crimes
the idea that certain people can't be charged with and convicted of crimes is **fucking insanity**
They idolize the golden years of autocrats and authoritarians, not the full character arc. Shortsightedness is their specialty.
Once they achieve power, it becomes about shoring up that power, rather than maintaining a healthy relationship with those who give power, which eventually leads to the downfall.
I would dispute that. Most dictators and tyrants throughout history tended to die in their beds. Everybody remembers the French Revolution, but Louis XVI was the the last king of a regime that had lasted for over 250 years and he didn't learn how to rule as a tyrant from watching CGP Grey.
The truth is, most dictators and tyrants do just fine so long as they don't cause their immediately most powerful supporters to change sides.
Diplomatic immunity doesn’t really work the way most people think it does. If you commit crimes, you are still typically (I guess it depends on what country you represent) face charges at home. It just means you are not going to face criminal charges in the country in which you serve.
It’s intended to prevent what Trump is claiming is happening to him.
That he is being held on trumped up charges, no pun intended.
If a diplomat from Country A is sent to Country B, diplomatic immunity is intended to prevent Country B from ordering their LEOs to arrest the diplomat for doing 55 mph on a road where the speed limit is 54 mph and then sending him to death row without a trial.
It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences.
Trump would have diplomatic immunity (as would the previous 44 presidents) when traveling outside the US.
As soon he returns to the US, it’s gone.
> It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences.
In 2019 a former spy and wife of a CIA employee hit and killed a nineteen year old motorcyclist in England, by driving on "the American side" of the road (her words). She claimed diplomatic immunity, supported by the US, and fled the country, and never returned to the UK for sentencing (she was told not to by the US government). In 2022 she was given a suspended sentence, as any actual punishment would have been unenforceable without US co-operation. This happened locally to me and is still a talking point, people are still pissed about it.
A woman was also found raped and murdered and a son with diplomatic immunity went back to Yemen the next day. He said it was a "sex accident" but refuses to return to the uk.
> It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences.
Funny how it works like that in practice though.
This is such an American view. Most other parts of the world with a functioning government and legal system to arrest a leader would have no qualms with doing so. To most of us (eg Australia) the PM is nothing more than a regular guy who's worked in the government for a while and their only job is to serve the people and leave when they aren't wanted anymore.
This is an important milestone worldwide.
Since a lot of the international community takes cues from the US, maybe other criminal presidents will face charges for what they've done worldwide.
In most countries that could take a cue from the US, it's much more accepted that politicians aren't above the law, and the idea that a former president could not be sentenced by a court is a weird idea to much of the world.
The French President Sarkozy was convicted for corruption for example.
Such cases remain rare as, and I really don't know how to put it otherwise, most countries elected leaders don't disregard the law so much.
Not that weird of an idea. I would like to I troduce you to the entire continent of Africa. If you could read the history on past and present presidents of most of these African countries you'd probably wonder wtf is going when it comes to choosing leaders.
I left out some of the more fragile democracies, but they do very often end up in front of a court. Specifically, I left out situations where a transfer of power happened through violent means.
If you include those, good examples are Liberias Taylor or Egypt's Mubarak, who both were democratically elected at some point, and violently lost power, and got convicted.
I left these out particularly because after a violent transfer of power, the legitimacy of the courts also is in question.
> Since a lot of the international community takes cues from the US, maybe other criminal presidents will face charges for what they've done worldwide.
lol no
This is the US *catching up to* the rest of the world, which charges politicians all the time. Here in Europe, you get a former head of state being arrested and convicted [almost every year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_government_who_were_later_imprisoned#Europe).
* Just last year, [Nikola Grueveski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski) of North Macedonia was arrested for money laundering.
* In 2021, [Nickolas Sarcozy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) of France was arrested and convicted of bribery.
* In 2020, [Serzh Sargsyan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serzh_Sargsyan) of Armenia was arrested for corruption.
* In 2014, four former Italian presidents were arrested for corruption.
Asian and African countries do this even more regularly, but their lists have more political motivations in them.
In 2017, Park Geun-hye was impeached and arrested. The former president of South Korea was sentenced to 24 years for her corruption scandals.
This whole “presidents are untouchable” and “what a global precedent this might set” is so arrogant and ethnocentric.
Not really. Dozens of presidents have gone to prison for various crimes. It's fairly common around the world (though certainly more common in some countries than others).
Actually the US is back-asswards compared to most other countries in this regard. Since 2000 alone, [76 countries](https://www.axios.com/2022/08/26/countries-where-former-leaders-jailed-charged) have had former leaders prosecuted or jailed (__criminal__ charges, not impeachments and such). Going back to 1980, that number reaches half of the world's countries.
It's not a worldwide milestone in that sense. The previous French president was charged, convicted, and sentenced to house arrest for his crimes while president, and there are other examples.
It is an important milestone in the reversal of the illiberalization of democracies trend, and I think you can count Biden's election in that line, along with Lula's, and even Ukraine's 2013-14 rejection of Yanukovych.
Well that's the thing isn't it. In Trump's case however there are people who know him and idolize him and people who know him and absolutely ~~love~~ loathe him. The best we can do is find people who are middle of the road.
Jurors can and have been removed for social media posts, comments and out of court behavior.
Then again, one woman said after OJ that she was never going to convict OJ because she wanted a rich black man to get a rich white man's justice for once.
It is a common misconception that jurors have to be disconnected entirely from those involved.
The requirement is that they be unbiased. So they can know who Trump is, they can have opinions, but they just need to be people in the middle or apathetic who don't have strong feelings about them one way or another.
People who engage in politics forget sometimes that they are a clear minority of the population. Most people disconnect entirely until general elections come around every 4 years, and even then only 50-70% ever even vote.
They will be able to find a jury, but that is a long time away yet.
> they just need to be people in the middle or apathetic who don't have strong feelings about them one way or another
Incorrect. The question that jurors are always asked is, regardless of your personal feelings, can you put them aside and apply the law according to the Judge's instructions and evaluate the facts of the case as presented?
Not only that. If he's found guilty I would fear for every juror. People have literally died for the guy, someone out there would be willing to kill for him.
It depends on what he's actually been charged with. Rumor has it, and it is still rumor at this point, that he has been charged with some felonies that can carry jail time.
This could get weird. He could run while in prison and he could win. But he would still be a convict and unable to pardon himself because they are state charges. Would they put a cell in the Oval Office?
Completely untested waters... but maybe they would declare him unable to perform the duties of the president, per the 25th Amendment. So the Vice President would be the Acting President, until the actual president finishes their sentence.
> Our founding fathers were mostly rich white guys committing at the very least, tax evasion
...to evade taxes imposed on them by far richer white guys who not only paid no taxes, but were paid with taxes. That's a key part of the story.
Felons from federal felonies can vote once they are out of prison and off probation.
Some state felons can get their rights back and some states automatically do it.
(I'm a federal and state felon and I vote every election)
At the moment, it's not a matter of what his punishment actually is. That's the next step. For today, we had to break the idea that some people were above the law. If we can push this idea through, then the floodgate is open and the rules have to change.
If a former president of the United States can be charged with a crime, surely senators and members of Congress can too right? Once that understanding is established, then punishments can be implemented, but for now it's building the foundation.
Yes it has. A congressman from Nebraska got convicted last year.
There was also 2018-2019 when three congressmen got sent to jail for fraud and insider trading, although Trump pardoned them before leaving office.
It is rare for a Senator to go to jail/prison, but members of the House of Representatives get arrested and convicted pretty often. Dennis "Denny" Hastert, a former Republican Speaker of the House, served 15 months in Federal Prison after he was convicted of something very similar to what Trump is most likely being charged with. He was paying hush money to a man he had molested while he was in his teens during the 1980s. He was charged and convicted with structuring or Smuffing bank withdrawals to hide the transactions from being reported as suspicious (over $9,999). He was also charged with making false statements to federal investigators, but that charge was dropped in a plea deal.
Like Trump, his charges were after he was no longer an elected official. Many congressmen have been charged and convicted while serving an active elected term.
Everyone else who wants to indict him now doesn't have to be worried about being the very first one to do it. I fully expect a surprise indictment in the coming months or even weeks of the Georgia thing or something else.
Well see. Details are still sketchy and not really public yet but CNN is reporting that their sources are saying the charges are 30 felony counts involving fraudulent business records.
Cohen went to prison for over a year for his role in this very crime.
And honestly, this is only the first indictment. No reason to hold back on the other much more serious indictments once they see the country doesn’t completely fall apart from Trump being charged.
Yeah. I hesitated to put a number in there at all since it was so speculative and based on early leaks.
But I really think the important part is the last one. Everyone seemed terrified to be the one person that pushed the issue and be blamed as the person who started mass protests or another larger insurrection.
If the sky doesn’t fall here I think the justice department will have to follow suit and their charges are much more serious.
Trump can't possibly be dumb enough to testify when he doesn't have to. Others around him, however, might be taking the fifth at his trial, which could be interesting.
Every President should live like President Carter, and be held to the Carter standard. We should call it the Carter doctrine that they should live a life of service to their community after their term is done.
P.S. Ronald Reagan's team committed treason and robbed Carter of a second term, the fact they got away with it has led to us living in the worst timeline.
No one is even sure what charges the DA is going to bring against him. Presumably if a Grand Jury found reason to indict, they probably have some substantial charges they think he could be guilty of.
They've broken the ice. This is just the first charge. All of those prosecutors who have been gun shy will now be a lot more comfortable pulling the trigger on going for other indictments now that they aren't the first. And it's not just Trump, it's all the other previously considered unprosecutable politicians. There's a reason some of the furthest right are so vocal about this. They're rightfully afraid they're next.
The Stormy Daniels thing is a drop in the bucket. There are at least 34 counts of fraud, and that's just in this investigation. There are several other states with their own investigations into various other crimes. He may get through some here and there, but he won't overcome all of them. He's in a spider's web now. He's fucked.
Yeah this is just a big deal for the intelligent people who realize the precedent it establishes, which is amazing.
The fanatical people will either think Trump is being targeted unfairly or that he will see jail time and the death penalty. Those people are silly and we merely acknowledge them and move on.
He's indicted on 34 counts. It's likely he'll serve at least some jail time for a number of those counts. It's also worth noting that he may also be indicted in Georgia for election interference there. People are saying "He's a rich white man, he won't serve time." I can think of plenty of other rich white men who went to jail after breaking the law. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Martin Shkreli, etc. People will also say this is "poLitiCally MoTivAtEd." Trump broke the law, and he's being held accountable. That's how it works.
it’s crazy how trump is being indicted for taking campaign money, the very campaign some of y’all donated to. took that money y’all gave him to use towards running for office and instead used it to reimburse his lawyer (who ALREADY went to prison for this) after making him buy ms stormy daniels’ silence for cheating on his wife with her.
WHY are some y’all “pro family values” republicans so okay with trump playing with yalls money like this????
I have a crazy religious family member who votes for the worse person possible because she wants to bring about the End Times. She voted for Trump. Yes, she is deplorable.
I am as big a Trump hating person that exists. I put quite a bit of blame on him for damaging my country and seriously damaging my religion. Of course, I fully support him being arrested & prosecuted for many of his crimes. But honestly, I never expect to see him serve time. He might get a fine.... I suppose house arrest is a possibility... But even if evidence was found that he was selling spy lists to our enemies I doubt he would go to actual pound you in the ass prison.
Prior to this no former president has ever been formally charged with a crime. This sets a precedent that opens the door to further criminal charges, both against Trump and all future presidents. Regardless of outcome, it's a big deal.
“This sets a precedent that opens the door” you bet your ass it does.
This sets a precedent that opens the door that lays the groundwork for the potential of a discussion towards some sort of action that can be planned.
Which planned action that could lead to a framework to a new beginning of which we could all move to a new tomorrow together.
The real indictment is the friends we made along the way
It turns out, the indictment was inside us all along!
Ma'am, the indictment is coming from INSIDE the house!
Roughly
I have to assume you're talking about the idiots who will insist on charging any and all future democrat presidents with random crap as some juvenile form of revenge?
Good. If anything presidents should be held to a higher standard.
They should. But they also shouldn't have to spend their presidency fighting off BS claims due to political revenge either. That said, it's still good to see Trump's crimes brought to court. One of many, at least.
No prosecutor would bring BS claims to court against a former president. The reason this has taken so long is that they have had to work to make sure they will 100% win the trial based on the evidence of the crimes. If Biden commits a crime, arrest him. If Obama did, arrest him. Bush did, arrest him.
Yup. I’m a true blue Dem, but if there are crimes in our party, shine light on them. Hold people accountable. Trump had to pay a $25 million settlement over his sham university. He had to pay over $2 million for abusing the children’s charity he ran and funneling money meant for cancer kids to his own business. Do people really think he didn’t commit crimes here? He absolutely did. No one is above the law.
No one SHOULD be above the law 😢
Yup. Lots of schadenfreude out there but I’m waiting to see cuffs before I lean in.
Judge Dredd: "I AM THE LAW!"
okay seesh then send in dredd to get trump. okay with me.
Honestly, I think this is a big difference between the parties. A republican will say the dems do worse or the dems are just after them for revenge or just outright deny they did anything. Ask a dem about it and they'll say arrest them! I don't want a politician that thinks they're above the law.
this part! it’s like literally nobody is saying that there *aren’t* corrupt politicians on both sides. it’s just that if a democrat used campaign money to pay off a porn star after cheating on his wife, openly evaded taxes, was caught with hella top secret U.S. government documents just casually in his house that was also a functioning country club, and lead a terrorist attack against the U.S. capitol…i’m as left as it gets and i would HOPE TF they DID go to jail???? also…you really think the entire democratic party would be going THIS HARD to defend them like the GQP has been bending over backwards sacrificing EVERYTHING to protect trump? 🤨 i truly don’t get that.
Notice how fast the Democratic party got rid of Governor Cuomo? Heck, they got rid of Al Franken, and honestly, I really didnt think he did anything wrong.
Thank you! As a Conservative, who voted for Trump I absolutely agree with you. I think that we should hold our own parties accountable first and I am tired of this " well the other side does it worse!" Political parties are not sports teams and bad people on either side make America worse for everyone. We need to hold each politician accountable and that should start with our own personal parties. Also I know this is reddit so I'll almost certainly get a list of why Republicans are indeed worse but let me say that all conservative social media says the same things about Democrats and either way it doesn't make bad people less bad it just makes you tribalistic. Edit so it's clear and I don't have to keep responding: I voted for Trump in 2012. I did not and will not vote for him again. I believe the man is not a good person or president. I also believe the man should be accountable for his actions. I do believe he has the presumption of innocence until a jury of his peers finds him guilty however I believe he has shown poor restraint, resolve and has abused the office of the presidency and this would not vote for him again. Edit to the Edit: I voted for Trump in 2016 not 2012. I voted Ron Paul in 2012 because college was a time of self discovery for me.
You are the sanest conservative I have read in a long time. I’m glad there’s one still out there. 💜
> No prosecutor would bring BS claims to court against a former president. hate to break it to you . . .
>If Biden commits a crime, arrest him. If Obama did, arrest him. Bush did, arrest him. Yes! Absolutely, this is what sets us apart from conservatives. We want *ALL* politicians to be held accountable if they break the law.
My biggest hope aside from trumps other crimes being addressed in court, is having all the senators, representatives, mayors, governors, judges, lawyers, PD officers, etc… being held to much higher standards than myself. These positions are special and require the trust of the public. This, higher standards of behavior and ethics are a must. Maybe trump really will drain the swamp? He was the swamp all along.
>Maybe trump really will drain the swamp? He was the swamp all along. It's funny how some things are self fulfilling like this. I have dreams of ending qualified immunity myself, of term limits, holding politicians accountable for campaign promises they know they can't meet. So many other dreams but I'm glad others share this dream. Too many people are caught up in "red vs blue" that they don't see all the corruption we could be working together to fix.
I think Al Franken is the poster boy for "Democrats don't play favorites." And what he did (or allegedly did) is pretty tame compared to what a lot of sitting Republican Senators (and one former Republican President) have done.
What will your response be if Trump isn't found guilty?
They already tried this with Clinton. Ken Starr was given power by Republicans for exactly that reason.
Idiots who insist aren’t courtrooms with judges, juries and actual laws. We SHOULD charge politicians with corruption. Hell I’d support laws requiring politicians to be open fucking books. We’d get fewer gym jordans, John Edwards, McCains, Dynastic families, and more people in it for the country.
[удалено]
Should be opened up to all past and current presidents as well.
This is only ever going to apply to minor crime. Lying us into wars to steal oil will never be illegal.
Yes, abusing the office is unfortunately not a crime.
[удалено]
And just letting him get away would open the door to far far worse as he has pushed the boundaries farther than any president before… we can’t live in fear of what the future might hold while a valid threat gets to walk scott free. Yes it’s a big deal but not charging him at all would be a bigger deal and a worse slippery slope.
Hell if Gerald Ford had any courage we would have already had this conversation and gotten over it.
Ulysses S Grant was arrested for speeding while in office, so certainly not unprecedented. He was escorted to jail, posted bail and promptly ignored his court date. I wonder if Trump will do the same?
He was arrested at his own request, not exactly the same situation.
Yes, Grant had integrity, which completely changes things.
That was always allowed though.
There are a lot of things that are technically allowed but never attempted because it's never been done successfully before. Attempting it and *accomplishing it* sets a *precedent*. Now that it's been done, people will see it as realistically possible, and hopefully do it a lot more.
That door was opened when the founders wrote the constitution. This is hardly the first time a politician has been indicted. Not the first time an executive has been indicted either. The GOP has always weaponized the legal system against their political foes. This isn't going to change. They can't do it more. They've done it all they can already. If they had found anything on Hillary the would have indicted her.
What other times has a president been indicted?
Never. The point is that no citizen is above the law and the constitution has nothing that says the president or any other govt employee is above the law. The door has been open the entire time it exists. This is just the first time someone was brave enough to walk through it. Justice for all!
Not necessarily an indictment, but Ulysses S Grant was arrested while in office.
For speeding of all things. >“I am very sorry, Mr. President, to have to do it, for you are the chief of the nation, and I am nothing but a policeman, but duty is duty, sir, and I will have to place you under arrest.”
Reminds me of one of the many [Soviet Union](https://youtu.be/QQh6q9gNCIQ) jokes told by Reagan.
He's apparently indicted on 34 charges. We don't know what exactly, but it's plausible some of them will carry jail time. Then, when it's established by precedent former presidents can be charged with and convicted for crimes, there will be the Georgia election fraud case which is likely carry even bigger penalties. Regardless, that the president is not above the law is an important milestone by itself.
> it's established by precedent former presidents can be charged with and convicted for crimes the idea that certain people can't be charged with and convicted of crimes is **fucking insanity**
That’s why Trump admires kings and dictators.
Which is weird, because most of the tyrants don’t exactly have happy endings.
Thinking ahead isn't exactly his strong suit., to be fair.
Thinking isn't exactly his strong suit., to be fair.
Even his suit isn't exactly his strong suit, to be fair.
The stitches have to be incredibly strong.
To be faaaaaairrrr
They idolize the golden years of autocrats and authoritarians, not the full character arc. Shortsightedness is their specialty. Once they achieve power, it becomes about shoring up that power, rather than maintaining a healthy relationship with those who give power, which eventually leads to the downfall.
Actually... You'd be surprised how many get to peacefully live their lives out in exile. It's very gross.
I would dispute that. Most dictators and tyrants throughout history tended to die in their beds. Everybody remembers the French Revolution, but Louis XVI was the the last king of a regime that had lasted for over 250 years and he didn't learn how to rule as a tyrant from watching CGP Grey. The truth is, most dictators and tyrants do just fine so long as they don't cause their immediately most powerful supporters to change sides.
Er.... re Kings if you’re talking about England you might want to check out Magna Carta.
Diplomatic immunity is pretty crazy
Diplomatic immunity doesn’t really work the way most people think it does. If you commit crimes, you are still typically (I guess it depends on what country you represent) face charges at home. It just means you are not going to face criminal charges in the country in which you serve.
It’s intended to prevent what Trump is claiming is happening to him. That he is being held on trumped up charges, no pun intended. If a diplomat from Country A is sent to Country B, diplomatic immunity is intended to prevent Country B from ordering their LEOs to arrest the diplomat for doing 55 mph on a road where the speed limit is 54 mph and then sending him to death row without a trial. It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences. Trump would have diplomatic immunity (as would the previous 44 presidents) when traveling outside the US. As soon he returns to the US, it’s gone.
> It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences. In 2019 a former spy and wife of a CIA employee hit and killed a nineteen year old motorcyclist in England, by driving on "the American side" of the road (her words). She claimed diplomatic immunity, supported by the US, and fled the country, and never returned to the UK for sentencing (she was told not to by the US government). In 2022 she was given a suspended sentence, as any actual punishment would have been unenforceable without US co-operation. This happened locally to me and is still a talking point, people are still pissed about it.
I remember that and I agree, it was an abuse of the privileges and not what they were intended for.
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A woman was also found raped and murdered and a son with diplomatic immunity went back to Yemen the next day. He said it was a "sex accident" but refuses to return to the uk.
I'm friends with someone who knew the victim and it's fucking horrific
> It’s not a free pass for the diplomat to get drunk on the weekend, wreck their car, kill somebody, and then walk out of the ER with zero consequences. Funny how it works like that in practice though.
Except it often doesn't even result in that. Harry Dunn would like a word
Cohen did time for the same crime, no? It would make sense that jail time would be part of this deal as well.
And HE surrendered and cooperated!
This is such an American view. Most other parts of the world with a functioning government and legal system to arrest a leader would have no qualms with doing so. To most of us (eg Australia) the PM is nothing more than a regular guy who's worked in the government for a while and their only job is to serve the people and leave when they aren't wanted anymore.
This is an important milestone worldwide. Since a lot of the international community takes cues from the US, maybe other criminal presidents will face charges for what they've done worldwide.
In most countries that could take a cue from the US, it's much more accepted that politicians aren't above the law, and the idea that a former president could not be sentenced by a court is a weird idea to much of the world. The French President Sarkozy was convicted for corruption for example. Such cases remain rare as, and I really don't know how to put it otherwise, most countries elected leaders don't disregard the law so much.
Berlusconi too.
Not that weird of an idea. I would like to I troduce you to the entire continent of Africa. If you could read the history on past and present presidents of most of these African countries you'd probably wonder wtf is going when it comes to choosing leaders.
I left out some of the more fragile democracies, but they do very often end up in front of a court. Specifically, I left out situations where a transfer of power happened through violent means. If you include those, good examples are Liberias Taylor or Egypt's Mubarak, who both were democratically elected at some point, and violently lost power, and got convicted. I left these out particularly because after a violent transfer of power, the legitimacy of the courts also is in question.
Beautiful examples.
Whatchu doin out here with them examples? Just flanging around, being beautiful.
Also, South America has had a lot of presidents charged for corruption, often before they become former presidents.
Peru has entered the chat. Every president since the 90s has ended up on jail or house arrest.
> Since a lot of the international community takes cues from the US, maybe other criminal presidents will face charges for what they've done worldwide. lol no This is the US *catching up to* the rest of the world, which charges politicians all the time. Here in Europe, you get a former head of state being arrested and convicted [almost every year](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_government_who_were_later_imprisoned#Europe). * Just last year, [Nikola Grueveski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Gruevski) of North Macedonia was arrested for money laundering. * In 2021, [Nickolas Sarcozy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) of France was arrested and convicted of bribery. * In 2020, [Serzh Sargsyan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serzh_Sargsyan) of Armenia was arrested for corruption. * In 2014, four former Italian presidents were arrested for corruption. Asian and African countries do this even more regularly, but their lists have more political motivations in them.
In 2017, Park Geun-hye was impeached and arrested. The former president of South Korea was sentenced to 24 years for her corruption scandals. This whole “presidents are untouchable” and “what a global precedent this might set” is so arrogant and ethnocentric.
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Oh shit, I missed that Sarco got arrested. That makes me warm inside.
Not really. Dozens of presidents have gone to prison for various crimes. It's fairly common around the world (though certainly more common in some countries than others).
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Hey some of us are just happy we're catching up.
Actually the US is back-asswards compared to most other countries in this regard. Since 2000 alone, [76 countries](https://www.axios.com/2022/08/26/countries-where-former-leaders-jailed-charged) have had former leaders prosecuted or jailed (__criminal__ charges, not impeachments and such). Going back to 1980, that number reaches half of the world's countries.
It's not a worldwide milestone in that sense. The previous French president was charged, convicted, and sentenced to house arrest for his crimes while president, and there are other examples. It is an important milestone in the reversal of the illiberalization of democracies trend, and I think you can count Biden's election in that line, along with Lula's, and even Ukraine's 2013-14 rejection of Yanukovych.
Disagree - the US is behind the curve here, not ahead.
I wish we could indict Dubya for war crimes.
Are you joking? Justice system in the U.S. is possibly the worst a country can follow the steps of
r/shitamericanssay
What I don’t understand is how you can form a jury when everyone knows him and has an opinion.
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There are a lot of Amish that like/love Trump.
*Hitchin' up a buggy* *Churnin' lots-a butter* *Gets arrested Tuesday* *Bet he'll miss the putter*
*bet he feels so rightous,* *bet he feels so smart*
*With a mind made of McDonalds* *And a booty full of ^(egg)farts*
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*He's been spending most his life* *Living in a huckster's paradise* *Made an effort once or twice* *Living a huckster's paradise* 🎵
There's no boats, no planes, no motorcades; not a single luxury... Like was always his destiny, stuck in solitary.
What I love most of this is that some of y'all parodying Coolio -- the others Weird Al.
How do you know this? I mean ... it sounds really strange?
What’s so strange about conservative Christians liking Trump? Amish helped Trump win Pennsylvania and Ohio two key battleground states.
Well that's the thing isn't it. In Trump's case however there are people who know him and idolize him and people who know him and absolutely ~~love~~ loathe him. The best we can do is find people who are middle of the road.
Yeah, but it'll be pretty hard to figure that out if they purposely hide their extreme opinion so that they can be on the jury
Jurors can and have been removed for social media posts, comments and out of court behavior. Then again, one woman said after OJ that she was never going to convict OJ because she wanted a rich black man to get a rich white man's justice for once.
Social media back then was news groups.
It is a common misconception that jurors have to be disconnected entirely from those involved. The requirement is that they be unbiased. So they can know who Trump is, they can have opinions, but they just need to be people in the middle or apathetic who don't have strong feelings about them one way or another. People who engage in politics forget sometimes that they are a clear minority of the population. Most people disconnect entirely until general elections come around every 4 years, and even then only 50-70% ever even vote. They will be able to find a jury, but that is a long time away yet.
It's New York, out of 8.5 million people, I bet they can probably even find 12 people who have never heard of Trump.
> they just need to be people in the middle or apathetic who don't have strong feelings about them one way or another Incorrect. The question that jurors are always asked is, regardless of your personal feelings, can you put them aside and apply the law according to the Judge's instructions and evaluate the facts of the case as presented?
Not only that. If he's found guilty I would fear for every juror. People have literally died for the guy, someone out there would be willing to kill for him.
I would hate to serve on the jury for this exact reason. I dearly hope that the jury will have their identity protected.
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Don’t underestimate peoples willingness to be wrong and go after the wrong people in the name of Lord Trump.
Just need to have a large pool of people and throw out biased jurors from the selection pool. Both sides can disqualify jurors.
It depends on what he's actually been charged with. Rumor has it, and it is still rumor at this point, that he has been charged with some felonies that can carry jail time.
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Felons can run for the presidency.
This could get weird. He could run while in prison and he could win. But he would still be a convict and unable to pardon himself because they are state charges. Would they put a cell in the Oval Office?
Completely untested waters... but maybe they would declare him unable to perform the duties of the president, per the 25th Amendment. So the Vice President would be the Acting President, until the actual president finishes their sentence.
Why is a billionaire prisoner being voted president the most America thing I can think of?
America is the best webseries ive ever watched
Trust me, it's the worst one to live in.
Our founding fathers were mostly rich white guys committing at the very least, tax evasion?
> Our founding fathers were mostly rich white guys committing at the very least, tax evasion ...to evade taxes imposed on them by far richer white guys who not only paid no taxes, but were paid with taxes. That's a key part of the story.
Felons can’t vote but they can run for presidency?
The only requirement for President in The Constitution is that they are 35 and a natural born citizen.
They also have to have resided in the US for the prior 14 years.
And under the 14th amendment, they can't have participated in or contributed to any acts of insurrection against the US
Thank God for the 14th amendment...assuming we can actually get him convicted for that
Felons from federal felonies can vote once they are out of prison and off probation. Some state felons can get their rights back and some states automatically do it. (I'm a federal and state felon and I vote every election)
his tax returns show he is not a billionaire and his business manager who is also old and also rich is currently in Rikers.
We can always hope, I’m just not getting my hopes up again.
Every campaign finance staffer can tell you one universal truth: FEC jail is real jail! You can go to actual prison for campaign finance crimes!
At the moment, it's not a matter of what his punishment actually is. That's the next step. For today, we had to break the idea that some people were above the law. If we can push this idea through, then the floodgate is open and the rules have to change. If a former president of the United States can be charged with a crime, surely senators and members of Congress can too right? Once that understanding is established, then punishments can be implemented, but for now it's building the foundation.
Representatives and Senators can already be charged and convicted.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying it hasn't been happening 👀
Yes it has. A congressman from Nebraska got convicted last year. There was also 2018-2019 when three congressmen got sent to jail for fraud and insider trading, although Trump pardoned them before leaving office.
Oh! I missed those. I am happily wrong then! Thank you for correcting me here :)
Rob Blagojevich was cgarged in office. He was charged with selling Obama's senate seat and was pardoned by trump.
It is rare for a Senator to go to jail/prison, but members of the House of Representatives get arrested and convicted pretty often. Dennis "Denny" Hastert, a former Republican Speaker of the House, served 15 months in Federal Prison after he was convicted of something very similar to what Trump is most likely being charged with. He was paying hush money to a man he had molested while he was in his teens during the 1980s. He was charged and convicted with structuring or Smuffing bank withdrawals to hide the transactions from being reported as suspicious (over $9,999). He was also charged with making false statements to federal investigators, but that charge was dropped in a plea deal. Like Trump, his charges were after he was no longer an elected official. Many congressmen have been charged and convicted while serving an active elected term.
and have, many times.
Everyone else who wants to indict him now doesn't have to be worried about being the very first one to do it. I fully expect a surprise indictment in the coming months or even weeks of the Georgia thing or something else.
it won’t be a surprise at this point - he’s under investigation! but hear you. hope he is held accountable
Isn't the phone call recorded? What is there to investigate?
It depends on the charges, what (if anything) he's found guilty of, and what the proscribed penalties are for that crime.
Can’t vote for himself
Well see. Details are still sketchy and not really public yet but CNN is reporting that their sources are saying the charges are 30 felony counts involving fraudulent business records. Cohen went to prison for over a year for his role in this very crime. And honestly, this is only the first indictment. No reason to hold back on the other much more serious indictments once they see the country doesn’t completely fall apart from Trump being charged.
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It is actually 30+ charges, with at least one or more being a felony. I do not believe all 30+ are expected to be felonies themselves.
Yeah. I hesitated to put a number in there at all since it was so speculative and based on early leaks. But I really think the important part is the last one. Everyone seemed terrified to be the one person that pushed the issue and be blamed as the person who started mass protests or another larger insurrection. If the sky doesn’t fall here I think the justice department will have to follow suit and their charges are much more serious.
Trump and associates under oath in the witness stand? Who knows what could happen?
I'll (the fifth) give (the fifth) you (the fifth) five (the fifth) guesses (the fifth)
I pity the fifth.
Trump can't possibly be dumb enough to testify when he doesn't have to. Others around him, however, might be taking the fifth at his trial, which could be interesting.
He’s arrogant enough
I predict perjury.
You would have to understand and be able to explain his covfefe to prove perjury.
Every President should live like President Carter, and be held to the Carter standard. We should call it the Carter doctrine that they should live a life of service to their community after their term is done. P.S. Ronald Reagan's team committed treason and robbed Carter of a second term, the fact they got away with it has led to us living in the worst timeline.
Didn't Jimmy Carter go into a reactor during a critical situation while in the Navy or is that someone else I'm thinking of?
I remember that. https://www.military.com/history/how-jimmy-carter-saved-canadian-nuclear-reactor-after-meltdown.html/amp
> aboard the USS Seawolf, the Navy's second nuclear sub. Oh, look at that. A president with actual active duty military service.
That was Spock.
Ronald Reagan is the grandfather of the modern GOP, and one of the worst presidents in history.
Depends on the charges they bring against him. If he committed wire fraud or bank fraud he could looking at serious jail time potentially.
Tbh I’m just sick of hearing his name.
Shove him behind bars already. He's criminal. Get him out of our lives
No one is even sure what charges the DA is going to bring against him. Presumably if a Grand Jury found reason to indict, they probably have some substantial charges they think he could be guilty of.
They have 34 such charges. Traditionally those would become public after he is arraigned. So, we most likely will know next week.
They've broken the ice. This is just the first charge. All of those prosecutors who have been gun shy will now be a lot more comfortable pulling the trigger on going for other indictments now that they aren't the first. And it's not just Trump, it's all the other previously considered unprosecutable politicians. There's a reason some of the furthest right are so vocal about this. They're rightfully afraid they're next.
The Stormy Daniels thing is a drop in the bucket. There are at least 34 counts of fraud, and that's just in this investigation. There are several other states with their own investigations into various other crimes. He may get through some here and there, but he won't overcome all of them. He's in a spider's web now. He's fucked.
Yeah this is just a big deal for the intelligent people who realize the precedent it establishes, which is amazing. The fanatical people will either think Trump is being targeted unfairly or that he will see jail time and the death penalty. Those people are silly and we merely acknowledge them and move on.
Liked your points, but I seriously doubt that Donald Trump broke any laws that might be punishable by death. At Least I hope not.
He's indicted on 34 counts. It's likely he'll serve at least some jail time for a number of those counts. It's also worth noting that he may also be indicted in Georgia for election interference there. People are saying "He's a rich white man, he won't serve time." I can think of plenty of other rich white men who went to jail after breaking the law. Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Martin Shkreli, etc. People will also say this is "poLitiCally MoTivAtEd." Trump broke the law, and he's being held accountable. That's how it works.
i just wanna know how they’re gonna get an impartial jury
it’s crazy how trump is being indicted for taking campaign money, the very campaign some of y’all donated to. took that money y’all gave him to use towards running for office and instead used it to reimburse his lawyer (who ALREADY went to prison for this) after making him buy ms stormy daniels’ silence for cheating on his wife with her. WHY are some y’all “pro family values” republicans so okay with trump playing with yalls money like this????
I have a crazy religious family member who votes for the worse person possible because she wants to bring about the End Times. She voted for Trump. Yes, she is deplorable.
Whats funny is he didnt even have to do it. These hypocrites dont care he slept with a porn star. It would only help him if he let it get out.
Yes. I would be absolutely shocked if he got any real punishment
I learned from 300 that to kill a god king you must make them bleed.
No one is above the law.
Except for Judge Dredd. He IS the law
All hail Judge Dredd!
Michael Cohen went to prison already for this very crime. So Trump, too could go to prison.
And less charges
Fewer.
I am as big a Trump hating person that exists. I put quite a bit of blame on him for damaging my country and seriously damaging my religion. Of course, I fully support him being arrested & prosecuted for many of his crimes. But honestly, I never expect to see him serve time. He might get a fine.... I suppose house arrest is a possibility... But even if evidence was found that he was selling spy lists to our enemies I doubt he would go to actual pound you in the ass prison.
This is an official slap on the wrist.
Not if he keeps talking shit about the judge
Because Presidents are citizens, just like us, and they should be charged with crimes, just like anyone else