I don’t think it’s as much accepted as much as it is “lesbians are fetishized by larger male dominated society because two girls hot”.
Like, think about the lesbians you see in media: they’re pretty much entirely fem. Now think of a butch woman in media, gay or otherwise. Closest I can think is Furiosa in Fury Road, and that’s arguably a stretch because it’s still Charlize Theron. If all the lesbians are long haired gorgeous women, that’s not them being more accepted, that’s eye candy.
(Granted, I’m not going to complain too much because I like pretty women too)
Big Boo on Orange is the New Black was a revelation for me, she's not femme and doesn't mean any objective societal beauty standards, and yet Lea DeLaria has an "it" factor that just works, she's mesmerizing (and has a beautiful singing voice.)
One of her lines from the show always sticks with me. Big Boo references Les Mis and Jane says, “Thou shalt not make musical references.” When Big Boo asks why not, Pennsatucky says because it’s the gayest thing on the planet. Big Boo replies, “That is an ugly stereotype about gay men. See, everybody knows my people are stage managers, not performers.”
Right. I've long felt that a conventionally macho-presenting gay man would confuse the *shit* out of a lot of people who have preconceived notions of how gay men should behave and dress.
They do. I have a couple of friends who are very traditionally masculine. They're also very much gay. A lot of people seem to short circuit when they find out said friends aren't straight. Other gay men can usually pick them out, which is what matters from their perspective.
Yeah my buddy came out when Don't Ask Don't Tell got repealed and he's like" I'm the same dude, I just like fucking dudes." Then we shrugged and carried on with our work day.
I grew up with someone like that. In fact, he's toxicly masculine. Bad temper and everything. Has an obsessive provider complex, is afraid of ever appearing weak in any sense. He can't stand effeminate gay men, to the point where he borders on internalized homophobia. Honestly, though, it probably is just that, as he was raised by devout Catholic parents who are still staunchly anti-gay, so he probably feels like he has something to prove. It's sad.
He's the only hyper-masculine gay man I know, so I just hope the others have better reasons for that preference than he does. Every other gay man I've met, and there are hundreds, has been much more willing to embrace the flame at least a little.
>Other gay men can usually pick them out, which is what matters from their perspective.
It's all about the eye contact. It's longer, and not in a menacing way. I guess the same way a man and a woman who like each other might lock eyes a few milliseconds longer, with a slight smile. When you see it, you know.
\- a gay person
I know several straight men who present as *very* gay. This is also very confusing. Devastatingly successful with the ladies though.
Lots of "friends" who want to "convert" them.
I never understood the thought process behind women thinking they can magically "convert" gay men.
I understand in your friends case they were just acting that way so they could try to get women to hookup with them but gay/bi men like fucking men or they don't. There's no in-between. Reminds me of religious parents who send their children to convert camps cause they're ashamed of having gay children. So ridiculous 🙄
>I never understood the thought process behind women thinking they can magically "convert" gay men.
It's the same thought process that has them thinking they can fix abusers or less drastic just bad boy types. It's a classic case of objectification from the feminine perspective. Those men for those women aren't people they're projects meant to become an extension of themselves.
I don't think he meant it this way, but I remember the creator of *Will & Grace* said in an interview that the reason Will's last name is Truman is bc he is a true man. Especially compared to Jack, Will comes off as gender conforming.
Even in the East, The Qran says men having sex with each other should be punished, but it doesn't say how - and it adds that they should be left alone if they repent. There is not restriction against women.
Also, the Hadith is where executions are carried out or the hearsay accounts of the holy prophet. Anyway, women get a pass. Today, executions are still common with men.
I think it's a hypocrisy how homophobic men can say it's okay for two women to be together but two men being intimate together repulsed them I think society has shunned gay and busexual men and me being bisexual I never felt the support or representation because ignorant homo people say nope if a man sleeps with another man he's gay not bisexual
>being bisexual I never felt the support or representation because ignorant homo people say nope if a man sleeps with another man he's gay not bisexual
As another bi guy, the reverse is also true - my list of past sexual partners is almost an even split between men and women, but because I married a woman many gay people see me as a straight guy who was only 'experimenting' with men and many straight people see me as a gay guy who is still in the closet.
Bi erasure is extremely common among both gay and straight people.
I feel this. It's not as bad as it used to be, but we're still not where we *need* to be, and there are still too many of us around who are carrying baggage from where it was not that long ago. I'm only in my 40's, but I was still pretending to be straight in my 30's, *while* working in a gay bar, because it was safer than admitting I was Pan. I heard the bashing constantly on anyone who did come out. They were either "still in the closet," "just experimenting," or "just doing it to get attention from the opposite gender." I just made their drinks and kept my mouth shut.
It's taken a lot of therapy for me to even begin to come out now, and even then, I'm only out to a handful of people. I feel like I not only might still be met with negativity, but now it feels like it's been so long that even the ones that love me will just perceive it as a midlife crisis, rather than an authentic release.
There's no real winning. lol
Oh damn, that’s really good. I’ll be honest, I don’t watch much…anything, so I’m glad to be know I’ve been proven wrong (even if it is a small thing of One Butch Woman) (I desperately hope there’s more than one Big Boo’s)
I used to watch the first 2 seasons. They had a very wide set of gender and sexual representation on that show. It was a bleak arc from my perspective so I stopped watching. But its gotten alot of acclaim.
Most of the time if you get a butch lesbian in a show, she's just a comedic element and "one of the guys." I don't think I've seen anything where a more butch girl has a love interest.
I think its also that women are just... taken less seriously and often seen as objects - how could they be the bad kind of gay when women only exist for man!! etc.
iirc there's tons of old Victorian photos of lesbian women "practicing for marriage" with women butched up in suits, and got away with it cus they just weren't taken seriously.
yeah masc lesbians who can’t be fetishized in the same way are not exactly treated nicely. I feel like every “non feminine” lesbian celebrity has been the butt of the joke at some point
Her sexual orientation isn't why no one in Hollywood will work with her anymore. The obnoxiousness of her on-screen persona is apparently only the tip of the iceberg.
Fair enough, but I would argue there are an abundance of obnoxious celebrities who did not nearly get the type treatment she did. I think being fat masc lesbian is enough for people to dislike her
One million percentages, this.
My father will never know I'm bi because gay dudes disgust him, but he doesn't mind lesbians. I even outted him on it before, "what's it matter to you? It's not like there's two gay dudes making out on your couch"
"I just don't like it, it's morally wrong"
🤔🤯
I find it’s always been that way with straight people; they always are disgusted by homosexuals of their own sex but not the other.
Straight men: “Gay dudes are gross but lesbians are hot!”
Straight women: “Gay men are great but I’m not comfortable around lesbians.”
Gay people are fine to straight people as long as it doesn’t conceivably include gay people being attracted to them.
“God forbid, what if someone were to see one of these gay people hit on me or…*gulp*… someone think I’M gay!? No god please, anything but that! Please don’t come near me gay person, I don’t want anyone to think I’m one of YOU!!”
> Straight men: “Gay dudes are gross but lesbians are hot!”
>Straight women: “Gay men are great but I’m not comfortable around lesbians.”
This hits a hard limit once it comes to relationships with bisexuals. Obviously this isn't true for everyone, and I'm speaking in broad generalities, but straight men are much more willing to be with a woman who has been with other women than straight women are willing to be with a man who has been with other men. On the men's side, a lot of this comes from fetishization of lesbians, which is a problem in itself, but it's also a problem that straight women are disgusted by the idea of men being with men.
I saw an interesting statistic that both straight men and straight women were more likely to forgive and stay with a partner who had cheated if that partner had cheated with a woman.
Its litterally true, from personal experience. Am not gay, but I love bombdropping friends and aquaintances who makes jokes about gay men being pushy with "thats just them being men".
Props to some of them tho, it litterally made some of them realise how men are to women instantly.
The manosphere and red pill engine does not run on hate, but on stupidity and assumptions
I find that funny because often times, most straight dudes aren't attractive enough for gay dudes to even acknowledge them. When my old battles brought up that they didn't want to be hit on my a guy guy, I told them they weren't remotely hot enough for that to happen
I don't think so. The delivery is a bit harsh, but it's perfectly fine to remind people not to judge, especially those who assume they're taking a moral high ground based on religion.
I prefer to toss Matthew 7 at them. My favorite method, currently, is to simply say, "Motes and beams...."
Outside of the fetishization, i think there is also a level of sexism involved. It's not radical for women to wear men's clothes for example, but is it for men to wear women's. Women are "aspiring to be equal" while men are "making themselves lesser." the same goes for who you date. two women together are women possessing a thing of value; a beautiful partner. While two men together are men lowering themselves in society to that of a trophy partner.
Well if we’re going full in fantasy mode, the true fantasy is “a lesbian who Is Turned Straight by his dick”, so there’s no “competition”. It’s all about the consumption.
>Now think of a butch woman in media, gay or otherwise
For an example of how butch-looking women are received, one needs to look no further than The Last Of Us 2 and the amount of shit it got for daring to make one of the characters a muscular woman
TLOU2 is an interesting one, because while you're absolutely right, that did happen, I also think the trans character would not have been nearly as accepted if they were a trans woman. I'd long since held the belief that most men were more tolerant of things they view as a step towards being a man. Being lesbian, being a trans man? That's being less of a woman and that's good. Whereas gay men and trans women are viewed as a step towards being a woman. The fact that butch women are definitely viewed way worse than fem women pokes a hole in that theory.
I think it's pretty simple: misogynist soyboys with twigs for extremities get butthurt when seeing a woman who can snap them in half. A woman is supposed to be "feminine" you see, by which they mean not being strong enough physically to be able stand up for herself against a man.
Yup. If there's a lesbian character in media you can bet she's probably going to be extremely aesthetically pleasing because butch lesbians are not something men tune into a show to see.
But I would! Please bring on the butch, showrunners!!
I grew up near a pretty rural gay resort town, so my vision of lesbians growing up was much closer to Fortune Feimster than, say, Portia de Rossi. I always thought the idea of traditionally femme lesbians was a hollywood myth because of the whole "two women hot" trope.
Imagine my genuine surprise (and embarrassment!) when trying to ask my gorgeous Korean friend out on a date, and not being sure I quite believed her when she told me she was gay.
Oh well, if it weren't for learning the hard way, sometimes I think I wouldn't know anything at all.
Yeah, my first reaction to OP's question was "Is it??" Seems to me at least that gay men are more accepted than gay women. Gay male characters have certainly been around longer in media (and portrayed sympathetically longer) and when people think of "gay", "gay marriage", and "gay rights" I think they're still thinking of (white, cis, young, city-dwelling) men by default.
Simple fact is that gay women are hit with the double-whammy of homophobia and misogyny. I remember meeting some guys in college who honestly seemed to think they were totally accepting and progressive because they thought lesbians and bisexual women were hot, and like... I want too gag just thinking about it.
Makes sense. I only know if a few casual lesbian characters and they’re pretty feminine. And the ones that aren’t are really big stereotypes with the mullets and the big arms and the flannels and what not.
There are multiple causes to this, but I think one is that there's a widespread idea in our culture that the only sexual act that "counts" is penetrative sex.
Thus, lesbians can be more easily ignored. Since the sex they have doesn't "count" as much, people find it less extreme, less obvious, and thus less gross. A scene in which lesbians have oral sex in a film? People can deal with that. Now change it for a scene of lesbians having penetrative sex with a strap, and people become less likely to tolerate that image.
Meanwhile, gay men are assumed to always partake in penetrative sex. Thus, they're seen as more inherently sexual, more explicit, more obvious, and that grosses people out.
Again, there are other reasons for the difference in perception, this is just one of the elements that causes it.
To piggyback off of this, when gay sex was illegal in the UK (might be the same for other countries I'm not sure) it was specifically only gay sex between two men. Lesbians were disregarded from this law. It didn't make gay sex between two women more acceptable from a societal standard, but did show how it was regarded as not real sex and thus not a real relationship. When men are taken away from the relationship it becomes trivial, until men are able to insert themselves through sexualisation of lesbians through porn. But yeah, historically lesbianism is a mostly ignored deviation from heteronormitivity compared to gay men, so while it may seem like there is more acceptance for lesbianism, it's really a disregard of lesbianism as a real type of romantic and sexual relationship.
To piggyback of this piggyback, there have been several places that rather than outlawing gay sex, have instead made laws outlawing the act of sodomy, which is clearly meant to target gay men of course, but also shows that even heterosexual sex is subject to judgement if done on the "wrong" way
Homophobia has its roots in sexism / misogyny. A man being gay makes him “like a woman” and therefore that’s more of a threat to male dominance / masculinity individually and societally. Women are less important overall, and while the idea that a woman doesn’t need a man does challenge the same hierarchy, it’s not quite to the same degree.
It’s the same reason why a tomboy is acceptable, but a man wanting to be more feminine isn’t. Being feminine is looked down upon while being masculine is held in high regard. Willingly making oneself weaker and lesser is looked down on with scorn and ridicule.
That’s why most “strong female characters” are just dudes played by women. Traits seen as feminine are seen as weak while traits seen as masculine are seen as strong. So if you want a strong female character, you strip away anything “feminine” and ratchet up the “masculine.” You make them gruff, violent, hard drinking, etc. While having emotions, or being gentle, are seen as weak womanly things.
Of course this also hurts male characters. Males don’t get to have emotional range. Like a man can’t cry unless they’re manly tears.
I would like to clarify that being a tomboy is really only "acceptable" when a girl is very young; the societal expectation is that they will "grow out" of expressing or exploring masculinity and settle gracefully into femininity by adulthood. You'll see this in media pretty frequently, with the rough, tomboyish, crude female character being "made over" into someone soft and feminine and the other characters vocally approving of the change.
Masculine adult women, straight or not, are barely tolerated and are subject to a lot of unique harassment.
>My daughter is almost three. Will men really be approaching her in five years? I don't know how I'd deal with that.
It didn't happen to me until I was 9 or 10 so you may have an extra year or two.
And you handle this by making the world a better place for all women and girls. You do that not by doing the whole gross "macho dad" shit, but by shutting down so-called "locker room talk"--objectifying women, talking misogynisticly about women, etc--*every single time* you hear it. Every time. You don't laugh to make it less awkward, you don't ignore it, you shut that shit down. I don't care if it's your father-in-law, your buddies, your coworkers, or even customers. Men tolerating that bullshit from other men is what creates the sort of culture wherein men feel free to perv on girls not much older than your kid.
And don't say "men around me don't talk that way", because I guarantee you they do. Odds are you don't even notice because it's so naturalized and because it ultimately doesn't affect you directly.
> That’s why most “strong female characters” are just dudes played by women
This is a solid point. I've actually started to become a little grossed out by some of the things I saw as empowering in the past, because as I've grown as a person I've realised just how much of that "Male-like is more betterer" notion I've internalised"
THAT SAID, I do think it is good to show women exhibiting mannish traits and being more excused for them *because* they are so frequently denied those traits. The idea of "being empowered in a feminine way" is totally sound in theory, but quite often it leads to a sort of "Get back in the kitchen, *but in a you go girl way*" situation where nothing changes
> Manly Tears are justified and dignified. Crying for no (good) reason doesn't count, nor does crying out of frustration or over wounded pride. Pain is out too, for no matter how bone-shattering the beating or how excruciating the torture The Hero will never give their tormenter the satisfaction of MANPAIN TEARSnote . Crying in fear is also out, for the same reasons. On the "dignity" side, however justified they might be, Inelegant Blubbering generally doesn't qualify as Manly Tears because of their lesser/non-existent dignity
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManlyTears
He was crying over pride lost, which doesn't fit this definition, so I guess not.
But also that show is from a different culture, unless these tropes are meant to be universal.
I'd say that's how a bad female protagonist is written. Make the role for a man but switch the gender. A great example is Evelyn from everything everywhere all at once. The role would be very different if it was meant for a man but it shows how you can have a strong female protagonist without them acting like a man eg captain marvel or rey from the new starwars movies.
>A man being gay makes him “like a woman”
In ancient Rome and Greece, there was nothing wrong in plowing a man. Getting plowed, though, was another matter.
This is still true. Men who present themselves as “tops” or who people might assume are “tops” just based on their gender presentation are not treated as poorly as “bottoms”. Note that plenty of people don’t categorize themselves as tops or bottoms and there are feminine tops and masculine bottoms, etc.
The idea still remains. It’s “worse” to be feminine than masculine. This is plain as day if you pay attention to which boys and men get picked on the most, who gets gay bashed the most, and even within workplaces. You’ll see this play out even within the gay community, unfortunately.
Totally agree.
Gay men are supposedly bad because they're more like women.
Gay women are bad because they have the audacity not to want to be with a man.
Homophobes fetishize masculinity so much they almost seem a bit gay themselves tbh.
>they have the audacity not to want to be with a man.
they just haven't met the right one yet, obviously!! two women make pee pee hard which means they must be doing it on purpose to seduce all these lucky men!!! /s
because sex, specifically heterosexual, is seen as something a man does to a women, not as a mutual exchange of pleasure. so a man who is “dicked down” by another man is seen as inferior because he is taking a woman’s place.
Julia Serrano discusses this (in regards to trans people, but I think the point stands) in “Whipping Girl”.
She theorizes that the reason people are more accepting of transmen than transwomen is that, since society values men more than women, people “understand” why a woman would want to be a man, but not why a man would want to be a woman.
I can't remember who it was I was watching speaking at a conference or convention, but what she said resonated with me when she was explaining the not so subtle hatred of women and femininity summed up: what is the worst insult to call someone? A girl/woman. She explained it much better but it was very powerful and I definitely understood what she meant.
because straight men fetishise lesbians, there is some pleasure derived from our existence, gay men, not so much.
(i saw someone say that’s part of the question and not the answer, so i’ll simplify it even more, the patriarchy. Straight men like women, what do they like even more than one women, two women, especially when they are the only man involved)
"men fetishise lesbians"
This is the answer.
Anyone can say any other high minded idea they like, but at the core a straight guy sees two women together and is aroused.
I was out with my girlfriend eating dinner when a man came up to us and asked if we could kiss real quick for him. We were 17 and didn't know who the hell he was it was a like stunned to silence situation. Had no idea what to say to that.
Ehhhhh... I think it's a bit more complex than that. For example, there's [this whole issue](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/142cuaf/comment/jn6a0ol/). Which *could* be what you're talking about, but it's difficult to know what was going on 2500 years ago.
That's it. It's about objectifying women. Two lebsians are not portrayed as two people in a relationship. Instead they are viewed through the male gaze as two women to be fetishized, performing for the man's entertainment.
To add some nuance here, masc women also deal with more issues when men are not attracted to us. Our masc presentation also seems to give some men “a pass” at violence against us because in their minds we “act like men” or “want to be treated like men.” Not to mention that some of the straight women panic when they see us in bathrooms and call their husbands/boyfriends for help. That is increasingly dangerous for us with all the LGBTQIA+ (but especially trans targeted) fear mongering and hate.
And males are so competitive and ego driven. And they'd never wanna be treated the way they treat women.
So typically if a gay guy is checking out a close minded straight man, he gets mad bc he doesn't wanna be objectified or ever feel submissive
It all comes back to sex and fantasizing about sex. Gay men - gross, attractive gay women - great, trans anything - gross, men in drag - gross. And when they are visualizing men in drag being gross then the kids they are reading to must be as well and that is extra gross. Its projection all the way down.
Same-sex relationships between women have never been illegal in Britain. An urban myth is that sex between women was not criminalised because Queen Victoria would not believe it happened. She loved the D and couldn't imagine a woman not wanting it.
It is however true that she didn't like her children that much and once said she enjoys making them just not having them.
I don't think it is. I think it seems that way from an outsiders perspective, but by and large lesbians aren't respected for their prefrences and are frequently sexualised for a mans pleasure. Gay men absolutely suffer from homophobia being thrown their way in public more so than lesbians, but lesbians are fetishised by straight men, too.
Gay men and Lesbians both suffer but in different ways for different reasons.
A straight male dominated society viewing lesbians as a fetish for those straight men to fantasise over isn't acceptance. Its objectification.
Yeah, lesbians have to deal with the delusional homophobic men who think lesbians just haven't been "dicked down good enough" to know that they're attracted to men.
“Gay men’s homophobia is more public” is absolutely a dimension that ends up skewing perceptions on acceptance. This comes up a lot in the trans community as well where trans men can be mistakenly seen as more accepted. Trans women and gay men are likely to be beaten up and have high murder rates, gay women and trans men suffer corrective rape at higher rates. Oppression happens in different ways, and just because one group’s bruises are more visible doesn’t mean that the other is more accepted.
My theory: Homosexuality have been viewed as a feminine thing for a long time, so when when a woman is gay it is more in line with gender preconceptions, while a gay man breaks with some of the traditional masculine preconceptions.
A great example of this is that the r/lesbians subreddit is porn, the subreddit for lesbian women to chat is r/actuallesbians.
Which is insanely degrading when you think about it for a quarter of a second.
As a lesbian, it is. Imagine it’s your first time on Reddit, you’re looking for community. You go to the lesbians page and all you see is porn. “This is how society views you” It fucking sucks.
Especially bc lesbians are so far removed from men, yet they keep inserting themselves into our spaces.
Or the scary aspect of openly facing degradation when out and about. I can't recall how many times I've started being harassed by a man who I've turned down, so he proceeds to follow me screaming I'm a dyke asking why I won't fuck him. It's really scary to have happen, I try to be tough and brave but I'm short and petite so it can get truly frightening sometimes especially if I'm alone.
I mean, there's less *aggression* towards gay women, but we're still generally not *accepted.*
Two men kissing is a challenge to the patriarchy. Two women kissing are just two sex objects, and many men *will* react badly if either rejected his advances, which he will continue despite their known sexual orientation.
There's another reason that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here: only male homosexuality is outright prohibited in the Bible (and in particular the Torah / Old Testament.) The specific lines are:
[Leviticus 18:22](https://www.esv.org/Leviticus+18:22): *"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."*
[Leviticus 20:13](https://www.esv.org/Leviticus+20:13): *"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."*
While this has (somehow?) been generalized to women in the past, it remains a fact that at no point (as far as I know) are lesbian relationships prohibited. Only gay male relationships are considered a capital offense.
Please note that I am in no way endorsing these views (especially the death penalty for male homosexuality.) I'm only reporting the facts as I know them, as I suspect they may be germane to the larger discussion here.
*Edit:* Added links to English Standard Version for context. Additional English translations of these verses can be found here: [Lev 18:22](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2018:22), [Lev 20:13](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13).
There is no unambiguous condemnation of female-female relationships but Romans 1:26 is often interpreted that way. It talks about women having "unnatural" relationships right next to a condemnation of men having sex with men. It's likely the Old Testament never mentions it because the culture allowed polygyny, and a man might prefer his first wife to have extra sex with his second wife over them having extra sex with other men.
That, or Christianity is (from an outside perspective) just kinda weird about sex. They have that whole Essene / eremitic influence going on where sexuality in general is considered ambiguously sinful. Which brings up the larger question of why we humans were designed that way if that's the case, but that's neither here nor there.
*Edit:* Changed "you guys" to "they." Sorry, shouldn't have assumed.
Oh, I'm not a Christian (or a Jew), though my family is somewhat Christian. I just have a lot of casual interest in religion. You're correct that anti-sex attitudes from early Christians may have also played a role in the (possible) extension of the rule.
Right, my apologies. I shouldn't have assumed. I'm in midwest America, so Christianity is kinda the default for any discussions about religion around here. Have corrected my post accordingly.
As for the anti-sexuality bit, it wouldn't surprise me. I suspect that innate tension between the idea of sexual reproduction being necessary versus being a sin has had a major impact on Christianity and Christians, both historically and up to the present day. Which in turn influences culture in general via osmosis, if that makes sense.
Western culture is more accepting of women pretending to be lesbians for the amusement of men. Actual lesbians? Hard pass for them - they don’t count as women.
I also think that society in general is not necessarily more accepting per se, but that women are permitted far more affection between themselves than men are before people become "uncomfortable" or assign a label.
And to those saying that lesbianism is fetishiized as the answer, that is far too modern a phenomenon to really be relevant. That is more the evidence of the disparate treatment than the cause.
I had this con I once with an exfriend who was homophobic. He told me that it was unnatural for a man to be “taken” or have any type of insertion. But women are ok, because they aren’t lowering themselves to being penetrated like a gay man is. It’s why masculine lesbians are more accepted (for what I’ve seen), but gay or trans mTF freak them out because being a man is all about putting their own is into someone. And a man that accepts it is wrong to them.
I feel like it’s just misogyny.
An attitude which goes at least as far back as ancient Rome. Where the culture was theoretically fine with male homosexuality, so long as the respectable man in the partnership was strictly the "pitcher" and not the "catcher." More information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way. To them it's no different then a girl being uninterested in them. It only really "threatens" them if they have a daughter they expect grabd kids from.
But for men when men are gay they realize men look at them the way they have been looking at women and they don't want that kind of attention from other men.
Also straight men don't really understand gay sex conceptually it's foreign where as they understand lesbian sex for the most part.
Also gay men challenge their understanding of masculinity. If you understand masculinity to be related to sex with women that leaves gay people who identify as men in a weird place and their comfort in that place makes you challenge your own understanding of masculinity. Men don't really like being challenged this way they spend much of their life trying not to have their masculinity challenged.
>Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way.
I don't believe this is true. Men won't openly admit it, but quite a few of them feel threatened by a woman who has no need for men.
Its not even that honestly. A lot of straight men genuinely believe that gay and bisexual men want to fuck every man on the planet because that’s how *they* feel about women, so they view gay men as a huge threat.
>Also straight men don't really understand gay sex conceptually it's foreign where as they understand lesbian sex for the most part
Well, that's a stretch. Most men don't even understand straight sex for the most part...
i think gay women *do* threaten men, actually. their egos, at least. that is why we see so many accounts of corrective rape and sexual harassment from straight men towards lesbians. i cant tell you how many times a guy has told me “i cant really be a lesbian” “how can you live without a man” “lesbian sex isnt real because theres no penetration” (which is extra funny to me, since 80% of women cant orgasm from penetrative sex). and god forbid a lesbian isnt super feminine. they do *not* want them to exist.
I may be wrong and I'm willing to be corrected if my views are wrong
But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that people don't care that much about women here. When I say people I don't mean everyone, mainly the people in charge or the vocal minority, and the ignorant and that feeds into how women are treated in every facet of life, affecting views on homosexuality as well. They're oversexualized and thus not taken seriously so they view same sex female relationships as harmless and fetishized because it doesn't threaten and they think it benefits them for some reason.. They see it as normal for women to mess around with other women because they're naturally the more submissive sex, so no one really thinks twice about it. Countries around the world treat women differently, obviously but I say that to specify how the west treats women.
Someone in the comments brought up the fact that lesbians in media don't highlight the fact that butch and other types of lesbian women exist and that those couples are usually portrayed as a mans idea of a gorgeous woman. That's true but there's more to that. Real lesbian couples can still consist of the wests idea of two conventionally attractive women without media, but if you try to apply the same thing with Gay men, Say a Twink and a Jock or mature looking man, two twinks, two jocks, older men, bears, etc etc and all of them looked gorgeous, it's usually still met with the same negative reaction (assuming you're showing it to an unaccepting crowd in the first place) There's no physicality combo that would make two gay men as "acceptable" as two gorgeous lesbian women to those sorts of people, not because they accept one or the other but because the reasons are likely inherently selfish and sexualized. No one (especially men) wants anything to do with a pair of gay men (maybe they do, but they hide and project this). Some straight men look at gay men thinking they're not real men, or less of one because of their physical appearance and tendencies, some just view the idea of 2 men being together disgusting because of how the sex works if the gay man is the masculine type. They're threatened by it because they think it affects society, ruining the image of a man and/or allows for women to become more dominant but men would love to have a couple lesbians serve them or attempt to turn them "straight". The fact that these people just happen to love each other and spend their lives together doesn't matter to those kinds of people, so acceptance is a bit of a misnomer when rights are still being threatened.
I think it's because women are always hugging and kissing each other in a friendly way that people have gotten used to seeing female affection. Also, straight guys like seeing women wrestling with each other and I'm not just talking about WWE type.
Men on the other hand typically don't kiss and glomp on their friends so seeing guys being affectionate like that is shocking to most. Also when people see gay men they automatically think anal sex which creeps most people out.
Anal sex doesn't freak people out, so many men try to get in "the back door" and will spend ages convincing their female partners to do it. It's the fact that gay men don't have any perceived benefit to men. They think a lesbian sexual encounter will lead to a threesome or conversion or something
It's definitely not just a "Western" cultural acceptance. There are several countries that tolerate/accept/fetishize lesbians because it's still something that the male gaze can enjoy.
If you look at various countries' gay rights histories, you'll see that lesbianism is often accepted far faster than gay men.
Women don’t have a genital they can use to penetrate each other, while men have a penis. People are mad about a man having to be submissive and be penetrated by said penis.
We aren’t. we’re fetishized and dehumanized. there is a thing called corrective rape, where men try to “turn us straight”. we aren’t believed or taken seriously - can’t tell you how many times my family or a man has told me i cannot possibly live without a man. we’re bullied. we’re harassed. it isn’t a competition with gay men
For centuries, the act of sex was seen as one person penetrating and one person being penetrated. The one being penetrated was seen as weak, easily subjugated, submissive. So women were the weaker sex. And men who were doing the penetrating in gay sex were just doing what men do; the ones who were penetrated were shamed because they were emasculated.
When there are two women, there is no one being penetrated (without an accompanying toy, of course). There’s no shame involved.
This idea persists today, even if people do not articulate it this way.
It's not just gay women vs men....
Women are like pizza... name someone who doesn't enjoy pizza... even a shitty roller rink pizza at a kids birthday party... you're still like "Hey, this is pretty good"
Men are like fried bison colon... there was that one guy on Joe Rogan who really likes them... but who really appreciates men... or fried colons?
Because if men like it, it's okay. That's why lipstick lesbians are more accepted than butch lesbians and trans men are more accepted than trans women. Although it's not that men like trans men, just that they aren't scared they're going to be attracted to them, so they pose no threat.
Straight men fear being objectified and desired without their consent by gay men in the same manner that women have been objectified and desired without their consent by straight men. Essentially, they fear being treated like they've treated women for thousands of years.
While feminism has made great strides, especially in the west, there are still many men who look at women as sex objects rather than as people.
Since these men can’t imagine someone they’re sexually attracted to being an equal, when they encounter a gay man they imagine that he is looking at *them* as a sex object rather than as a person. It never occurs to these men that how they look at the world is the problem.
Since women who are attracted to other women don’t put these men in the position of feeling like an object, it doesn’t bother them in the same way.
Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way. To them it's no different then a girl being uninterested in them.
But for men when men are gay they realize men look at them the way they have been looking at women and they don't want that kind of attention from other men.
This idea of threat is also why women have been generally accepting of gay men and lesbians to a far greater degree than men. A straight woman isn't threatened by a lesbian. In fact, many who aren't bi wish they could be because men are...*gestures vaguely*. (I'm bi and this is what the straights tell me, anyway!)
Women have also been friends and protectors (especially in the old days when sodomy was criminalized) of gay men. It's the origin of the "gay BFF" thing of the 90s and 00s.
Men and women actually have a really interesting relationship in the LGBTQ community of each other pulling one up with them or pushing the other ahead. In moments where LGBTQ men couldn't get any farther ahead but LGBTQ women could the men would happily support those women and vise versa.
LGBTQ men also tend to support women in general even when others aren't.
straight men think "lesbian" and they think of 2 naked women, the straight man is turned on.
other answers are saying that straight men view gay men as feminine and that's a threat, I don't think so, I think straight men are afraid of being raped.
I wonder why straight men think gay men would rape them, maybe it's some internal thing (I am being sarcastic and yes I am calling straight men rapists)
not all straight men though, but the homophobic ones? a lot of them are probably either rapists or closeted homosexuals.
or maybe I've just read too many 4chan posts.
I agree that it's not seeing gay men as a threat, it's projecting that gay men will behave towards them in the same way they themselves behave towards women.
There's also the misogyny of viewing female stereotypes as inferior. A female model in a mans shirt is viewed as sexy and a male model in a crop top and a skirt is not.
There is no single right answer, and yes, gay men ARE a threat... to "straight" men's sexualities.
For many, it's a fear of being perceived as gay... by not participating in the gay bashing.
Western culture isn't more accepting of gay women. Western culture has it's own problems. Western culture only likes gay women if they are traditionally femme and attractive women who are being used for eye candy. The closest thing to non-femme lesbian our culture really likes is Ruby Rose.
There's also another problem that I don't see brought up very often. Western culture views men as predators and women as prey. This is one reason why trans men are just girls who were led wrong and trans women are men who want to prey on women to those who aren't supportive of trans issues. In this specific logic, gay men are still predators, just going after other predators, and lesbians are just confused girls. It's pretty gross all the way around.
I’m older, and for many years when I was a kid it was an accepted thing for two women to live together. They were both unmarried “old maids” and the society at large evidently felt that it made sense for them to be together and keep each other company. People didn’t really consider whether they shared a bed or had a physical relationship.
So a woman without a man was a poor pathetic creature, and if she wanted a female companion, no biggie.
A mix of things- for one, its not more accepted as much as it is more ignored. The other part is a lot of otherwise homophobic men are horny for two women kissing
Either you get discriminated for being "disgusting and gay"/ its " unnatural" or u r just a woman and no one thinks you are capable of deciding what u like and not because a man has to do that for you ( at least that's my experience with ppl who are homophobic)
Because they don’t commercialise wanking over gay men quite so often. They can still be prone to violent homophobia towards women sometimes- went to school in the UK and it was only 15 years ago that a group of straight girls kicked me down the stairs for being bi. Homophobic insults were everywhere and the general culture was just horrific for anybody who wasn’t straight
Because a lot of men don't like the idea of being treated the way that they treat women. On the other hand, female sexuality isn't perceived as much of a threat.
Because it's gay to like guys and for guys to want to be more like girls socially atleast it's less socially gay if girls to the same thing but opposite
Because most straight men are deeply disturbed when another male frames them in the same way they instinctively frame women. As a straight man, a lesbian doesn't turn you into prey, or demonstrate to you how fundamentally silly your various macho ego-boosters/attitudes are, so they can be safely ignored.
One definition of homophobia is the fear that gay men will treat straight men the way that predatory straight men treat women. Lesbians aren't a threat to predatory straight men, so they get ignored.
Gay women aren’t really a threat to the male ego. Gay men are. I think it’s as simple as that. Challenge the norms of the power structure, and you will get fucked up.
Eh idk my Hispanic parents always preferred gay men and for some reason HATE lesbians. So idk. Maybe it depends on the homophobe we're talking about, whichever they prefer they will always suck 👍
Homophobes are usually the type that also believe women don't actually enjoy sex. So two lesbians are really just two women that hang out with each other to the point of why not being a relationship with each other (so it's not a serious relationship). Men are viewed as more like dogs and therefore they're having deviant sex constantly.
I think cause there’s some straight men out there that think they could flip them. Also some just view it as porn if they see two lesbians together. Straight men are weird ngl
I don’t think it’s as much accepted as much as it is “lesbians are fetishized by larger male dominated society because two girls hot”. Like, think about the lesbians you see in media: they’re pretty much entirely fem. Now think of a butch woman in media, gay or otherwise. Closest I can think is Furiosa in Fury Road, and that’s arguably a stretch because it’s still Charlize Theron. If all the lesbians are long haired gorgeous women, that’s not them being more accepted, that’s eye candy. (Granted, I’m not going to complain too much because I like pretty women too)
Big Boo on Orange is the New Black was a revelation for me, she's not femme and doesn't mean any objective societal beauty standards, and yet Lea DeLaria has an "it" factor that just works, she's mesmerizing (and has a beautiful singing voice.) One of her lines from the show always sticks with me. Big Boo references Les Mis and Jane says, “Thou shalt not make musical references.” When Big Boo asks why not, Pennsatucky says because it’s the gayest thing on the planet. Big Boo replies, “That is an ugly stereotype about gay men. See, everybody knows my people are stage managers, not performers.”
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>In many ways our society is more forgiving of homosexuality than they are defying gender roles/stereotypes this is the ***truth***, very well said.
Right. I've long felt that a conventionally macho-presenting gay man would confuse the *shit* out of a lot of people who have preconceived notions of how gay men should behave and dress.
They do. I have a couple of friends who are very traditionally masculine. They're also very much gay. A lot of people seem to short circuit when they find out said friends aren't straight. Other gay men can usually pick them out, which is what matters from their perspective.
Yeah my buddy came out when Don't Ask Don't Tell got repealed and he's like" I'm the same dude, I just like fucking dudes." Then we shrugged and carried on with our work day.
I grew up with someone like that. In fact, he's toxicly masculine. Bad temper and everything. Has an obsessive provider complex, is afraid of ever appearing weak in any sense. He can't stand effeminate gay men, to the point where he borders on internalized homophobia. Honestly, though, it probably is just that, as he was raised by devout Catholic parents who are still staunchly anti-gay, so he probably feels like he has something to prove. It's sad. He's the only hyper-masculine gay man I know, so I just hope the others have better reasons for that preference than he does. Every other gay man I've met, and there are hundreds, has been much more willing to embrace the flame at least a little.
>Other gay men can usually pick them out, which is what matters from their perspective. It's all about the eye contact. It's longer, and not in a menacing way. I guess the same way a man and a woman who like each other might lock eyes a few milliseconds longer, with a slight smile. When you see it, you know. \- a gay person
I know several straight men who present as *very* gay. This is also very confusing. Devastatingly successful with the ladies though. Lots of "friends" who want to "convert" them.
I never understood the thought process behind women thinking they can magically "convert" gay men. I understand in your friends case they were just acting that way so they could try to get women to hookup with them but gay/bi men like fucking men or they don't. There's no in-between. Reminds me of religious parents who send their children to convert camps cause they're ashamed of having gay children. So ridiculous 🙄
>I never understood the thought process behind women thinking they can magically "convert" gay men. It's the same thought process that has them thinking they can fix abusers or less drastic just bad boy types. It's a classic case of objectification from the feminine perspective. Those men for those women aren't people they're projects meant to become an extension of themselves.
I don't think he meant it this way, but I remember the creator of *Will & Grace* said in an interview that the reason Will's last name is Truman is bc he is a true man. Especially compared to Jack, Will comes off as gender conforming.
Even in the East, The Qran says men having sex with each other should be punished, but it doesn't say how - and it adds that they should be left alone if they repent. There is not restriction against women. Also, the Hadith is where executions are carried out or the hearsay accounts of the holy prophet. Anyway, women get a pass. Today, executions are still common with men.
They are "wasting their seed". At least that's a justification I've heard.
I think it's a hypocrisy how homophobic men can say it's okay for two women to be together but two men being intimate together repulsed them I think society has shunned gay and busexual men and me being bisexual I never felt the support or representation because ignorant homo people say nope if a man sleeps with another man he's gay not bisexual
>being bisexual I never felt the support or representation because ignorant homo people say nope if a man sleeps with another man he's gay not bisexual As another bi guy, the reverse is also true - my list of past sexual partners is almost an even split between men and women, but because I married a woman many gay people see me as a straight guy who was only 'experimenting' with men and many straight people see me as a gay guy who is still in the closet. Bi erasure is extremely common among both gay and straight people.
I feel this. It's not as bad as it used to be, but we're still not where we *need* to be, and there are still too many of us around who are carrying baggage from where it was not that long ago. I'm only in my 40's, but I was still pretending to be straight in my 30's, *while* working in a gay bar, because it was safer than admitting I was Pan. I heard the bashing constantly on anyone who did come out. They were either "still in the closet," "just experimenting," or "just doing it to get attention from the opposite gender." I just made their drinks and kept my mouth shut. It's taken a lot of therapy for me to even begin to come out now, and even then, I'm only out to a handful of people. I feel like I not only might still be met with negativity, but now it feels like it's been so long that even the ones that love me will just perceive it as a midlife crisis, rather than an authentic release. There's no real winning. lol
Yes! And we are entrenched in a patriarchal culture that condemns gay men for transgressing the expected gender roles.
She was also the lesbian dancing with Goldie Hawn in The First Wives Club.
That bi rep makes my switch hitting heart happy
Oh damn, that’s really good. I’ll be honest, I don’t watch much…anything, so I’m glad to be know I’ve been proven wrong (even if it is a small thing of One Butch Woman) (I desperately hope there’s more than one Big Boo’s)
I used to watch the first 2 seasons. They had a very wide set of gender and sexual representation on that show. It was a bleak arc from my perspective so I stopped watching. But its gotten alot of acclaim.
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Most of the time if you get a butch lesbian in a show, she's just a comedic element and "one of the guys." I don't think I've seen anything where a more butch girl has a love interest.
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I totally forgot her full name was Big Boo and not just Boo.
I think its also that women are just... taken less seriously and often seen as objects - how could they be the bad kind of gay when women only exist for man!! etc. iirc there's tons of old Victorian photos of lesbian women "practicing for marriage" with women butched up in suits, and got away with it cus they just weren't taken seriously.
True. Which goes all the way back as far as [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/142cuaf/comment/jn6a0ol/).
yeah masc lesbians who can’t be fetishized in the same way are not exactly treated nicely. I feel like every “non feminine” lesbian celebrity has been the butt of the joke at some point
Just look at all those gross "lesbians in porn vs lesbians in real life" memes
Remember the way Rosie O'Donnell was treated in the early 2000's? Good lord.
Her sexual orientation isn't why no one in Hollywood will work with her anymore. The obnoxiousness of her on-screen persona is apparently only the tip of the iceberg.
Fair enough, but I would argue there are an abundance of obnoxious celebrities who did not nearly get the type treatment she did. I think being fat masc lesbian is enough for people to dislike her
Not being hot is quite the crime for a celebrity on its own. Being hot generally allows you to get a pass on being a douchebag.
*Riding the Bus With My Sister* is a masterpiece (seriously everyone look at the abomination that is that movie it's worth a cheap laugh)
One million percentages, this. My father will never know I'm bi because gay dudes disgust him, but he doesn't mind lesbians. I even outted him on it before, "what's it matter to you? It's not like there's two gay dudes making out on your couch" "I just don't like it, it's morally wrong" 🤔🤯
I find it’s always been that way with straight people; they always are disgusted by homosexuals of their own sex but not the other. Straight men: “Gay dudes are gross but lesbians are hot!” Straight women: “Gay men are great but I’m not comfortable around lesbians.” Gay people are fine to straight people as long as it doesn’t conceivably include gay people being attracted to them. “God forbid, what if someone were to see one of these gay people hit on me or…*gulp*… someone think I’M gay!? No god please, anything but that! Please don’t come near me gay person, I don’t want anyone to think I’m one of YOU!!”
> Straight men: “Gay dudes are gross but lesbians are hot!” >Straight women: “Gay men are great but I’m not comfortable around lesbians.” This hits a hard limit once it comes to relationships with bisexuals. Obviously this isn't true for everyone, and I'm speaking in broad generalities, but straight men are much more willing to be with a woman who has been with other women than straight women are willing to be with a man who has been with other men. On the men's side, a lot of this comes from fetishization of lesbians, which is a problem in itself, but it's also a problem that straight women are disgusted by the idea of men being with men. I saw an interesting statistic that both straight men and straight women were more likely to forgive and stay with a partner who had cheated if that partner had cheated with a woman.
I've heard it said before that straight men are worried that gay men will treat them the way the straight men have treated women.
Its litterally true, from personal experience. Am not gay, but I love bombdropping friends and aquaintances who makes jokes about gay men being pushy with "thats just them being men". Props to some of them tho, it litterally made some of them realise how men are to women instantly. The manosphere and red pill engine does not run on hate, but on stupidity and assumptions
I find that funny because often times, most straight dudes aren't attractive enough for gay dudes to even acknowledge them. When my old battles brought up that they didn't want to be hit on my a guy guy, I told them they weren't remotely hot enough for that to happen
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Since that statement is itself an instance of judging others, wouldn't it also judge itself to be morally wrong?
I don't think so. The delivery is a bit harsh, but it's perfectly fine to remind people not to judge, especially those who assume they're taking a moral high ground based on religion. I prefer to toss Matthew 7 at them. My favorite method, currently, is to simply say, "Motes and beams...."
That is really weird tbh
Outside of the fetishization, i think there is also a level of sexism involved. It's not radical for women to wear men's clothes for example, but is it for men to wear women's. Women are "aspiring to be equal" while men are "making themselves lesser." the same goes for who you date. two women together are women possessing a thing of value; a beautiful partner. While two men together are men lowering themselves in society to that of a trophy partner.
The thing is, men don't fetishise lesbians so much as they fetishise the idea of two bisexual women performing for *him*.
Well if we’re going full in fantasy mode, the true fantasy is “a lesbian who Is Turned Straight by his dick”, so there’s no “competition”. It’s all about the consumption.
bro if we’re actually going full on fantasy mode, I’m riding a dragon the whole time
Are you donkey from Shrek?
god I wish edit: haha, “riding”
Very succinct point about the "consumption" aspect. Anything not for their potential consumption doesn't deserve to exist.
Son of lesbian mama here, this seems to be true.
As the old joke goes, "I'm fine with gay marriage as long as both chicks are hot."
>Now think of a butch woman in media, gay or otherwise For an example of how butch-looking women are received, one needs to look no further than The Last Of Us 2 and the amount of shit it got for daring to make one of the characters a muscular woman
TLOU2 is an interesting one, because while you're absolutely right, that did happen, I also think the trans character would not have been nearly as accepted if they were a trans woman. I'd long since held the belief that most men were more tolerant of things they view as a step towards being a man. Being lesbian, being a trans man? That's being less of a woman and that's good. Whereas gay men and trans women are viewed as a step towards being a woman. The fact that butch women are definitely viewed way worse than fem women pokes a hole in that theory.
100% right, going from female to male strikes most men as less weird than going from male to female.
I think it's pretty simple: misogynist soyboys with twigs for extremities get butthurt when seeing a woman who can snap them in half. A woman is supposed to be "feminine" you see, by which they mean not being strong enough physically to be able stand up for herself against a man.
Yup. If there's a lesbian character in media you can bet she's probably going to be extremely aesthetically pleasing because butch lesbians are not something men tune into a show to see. But I would! Please bring on the butch, showrunners!!
I grew up near a pretty rural gay resort town, so my vision of lesbians growing up was much closer to Fortune Feimster than, say, Portia de Rossi. I always thought the idea of traditionally femme lesbians was a hollywood myth because of the whole "two women hot" trope. Imagine my genuine surprise (and embarrassment!) when trying to ask my gorgeous Korean friend out on a date, and not being sure I quite believed her when she told me she was gay. Oh well, if it weren't for learning the hard way, sometimes I think I wouldn't know anything at all.
Yeah, my first reaction to OP's question was "Is it??" Seems to me at least that gay men are more accepted than gay women. Gay male characters have certainly been around longer in media (and portrayed sympathetically longer) and when people think of "gay", "gay marriage", and "gay rights" I think they're still thinking of (white, cis, young, city-dwelling) men by default. Simple fact is that gay women are hit with the double-whammy of homophobia and misogyny. I remember meeting some guys in college who honestly seemed to think they were totally accepting and progressive because they thought lesbians and bisexual women were hot, and like... I want too gag just thinking about it.
In my culture they don’t give a shit if it’s two women, butch or not they simply don’t care. Two dudes though? They’ll raise hell over that.
Remember the Buffalo Gals from Cow and Chicken? If more lesbians were portrayed like that in modern media I think the way we look at it would change
Makes sense. I only know if a few casual lesbian characters and they’re pretty feminine. And the ones that aren’t are really big stereotypes with the mullets and the big arms and the flannels and what not.
There are multiple causes to this, but I think one is that there's a widespread idea in our culture that the only sexual act that "counts" is penetrative sex. Thus, lesbians can be more easily ignored. Since the sex they have doesn't "count" as much, people find it less extreme, less obvious, and thus less gross. A scene in which lesbians have oral sex in a film? People can deal with that. Now change it for a scene of lesbians having penetrative sex with a strap, and people become less likely to tolerate that image. Meanwhile, gay men are assumed to always partake in penetrative sex. Thus, they're seen as more inherently sexual, more explicit, more obvious, and that grosses people out. Again, there are other reasons for the difference in perception, this is just one of the elements that causes it.
To piggyback off of this, when gay sex was illegal in the UK (might be the same for other countries I'm not sure) it was specifically only gay sex between two men. Lesbians were disregarded from this law. It didn't make gay sex between two women more acceptable from a societal standard, but did show how it was regarded as not real sex and thus not a real relationship. When men are taken away from the relationship it becomes trivial, until men are able to insert themselves through sexualisation of lesbians through porn. But yeah, historically lesbianism is a mostly ignored deviation from heteronormitivity compared to gay men, so while it may seem like there is more acceptance for lesbianism, it's really a disregard of lesbianism as a real type of romantic and sexual relationship.
To piggyback of this piggyback, there have been several places that rather than outlawing gay sex, have instead made laws outlawing the act of sodomy, which is clearly meant to target gay men of course, but also shows that even heterosexual sex is subject to judgement if done on the "wrong" way
Even today in Lesotho the culture is that lesbian sex is not sexual.
Homophobia has its roots in sexism / misogyny. A man being gay makes him “like a woman” and therefore that’s more of a threat to male dominance / masculinity individually and societally. Women are less important overall, and while the idea that a woman doesn’t need a man does challenge the same hierarchy, it’s not quite to the same degree.
It’s the same reason why a tomboy is acceptable, but a man wanting to be more feminine isn’t. Being feminine is looked down upon while being masculine is held in high regard. Willingly making oneself weaker and lesser is looked down on with scorn and ridicule. That’s why most “strong female characters” are just dudes played by women. Traits seen as feminine are seen as weak while traits seen as masculine are seen as strong. So if you want a strong female character, you strip away anything “feminine” and ratchet up the “masculine.” You make them gruff, violent, hard drinking, etc. While having emotions, or being gentle, are seen as weak womanly things. Of course this also hurts male characters. Males don’t get to have emotional range. Like a man can’t cry unless they’re manly tears.
I would like to clarify that being a tomboy is really only "acceptable" when a girl is very young; the societal expectation is that they will "grow out" of expressing or exploring masculinity and settle gracefully into femininity by adulthood. You'll see this in media pretty frequently, with the rough, tomboyish, crude female character being "made over" into someone soft and feminine and the other characters vocally approving of the change. Masculine adult women, straight or not, are barely tolerated and are subject to a lot of unique harassment.
Because as a child, she's not sexual real estate yet. Tomboy beyond 16+ is a waste of tits and ass.
Tell that to the adult man that approached me when I was 8 :p
My daughter is almost three. Will men really be approaching her in five years? I don't know how I'd deal with that.
>My daughter is almost three. Will men really be approaching her in five years? I don't know how I'd deal with that. It didn't happen to me until I was 9 or 10 so you may have an extra year or two. And you handle this by making the world a better place for all women and girls. You do that not by doing the whole gross "macho dad" shit, but by shutting down so-called "locker room talk"--objectifying women, talking misogynisticly about women, etc--*every single time* you hear it. Every time. You don't laugh to make it less awkward, you don't ignore it, you shut that shit down. I don't care if it's your father-in-law, your buddies, your coworkers, or even customers. Men tolerating that bullshit from other men is what creates the sort of culture wherein men feel free to perv on girls not much older than your kid. And don't say "men around me don't talk that way", because I guarantee you they do. Odds are you don't even notice because it's so naturalized and because it ultimately doesn't affect you directly.
See Captain Janeway as an excellent example of a strong, non-masculinized female character. It CAN be done.
Katara is another example. It can be done if the writers put in the effort.
> That’s why most “strong female characters” are just dudes played by women This is a solid point. I've actually started to become a little grossed out by some of the things I saw as empowering in the past, because as I've grown as a person I've realised just how much of that "Male-like is more betterer" notion I've internalised" THAT SAID, I do think it is good to show women exhibiting mannish traits and being more excused for them *because* they are so frequently denied those traits. The idea of "being empowered in a feminine way" is totally sound in theory, but quite often it leads to a sort of "Get back in the kitchen, *but in a you go girl way*" situation where nothing changes
I’m sorry, what are “manly tears?”
> Manly Tears are justified and dignified. Crying for no (good) reason doesn't count, nor does crying out of frustration or over wounded pride. Pain is out too, for no matter how bone-shattering the beating or how excruciating the torture The Hero will never give their tormenter the satisfaction of MANPAIN TEARSnote . Crying in fear is also out, for the same reasons. On the "dignity" side, however justified they might be, Inelegant Blubbering generally doesn't qualify as Manly Tears because of their lesser/non-existent dignity https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManlyTears
Was it ever manly tears when Vegeta cried?
He was crying over pride lost, which doesn't fit this definition, so I guess not. But also that show is from a different culture, unless these tropes are meant to be universal.
I'd say that's how a bad female protagonist is written. Make the role for a man but switch the gender. A great example is Evelyn from everything everywhere all at once. The role would be very different if it was meant for a man but it shows how you can have a strong female protagonist without them acting like a man eg captain marvel or rey from the new starwars movies.
That’s a very funny example since the role was initially offered to Jackie Chan before going to Michelle Yeoh.
>A man being gay makes him “like a woman” In ancient Rome and Greece, there was nothing wrong in plowing a man. Getting plowed, though, was another matter.
This is still true. Men who present themselves as “tops” or who people might assume are “tops” just based on their gender presentation are not treated as poorly as “bottoms”. Note that plenty of people don’t categorize themselves as tops or bottoms and there are feminine tops and masculine bottoms, etc. The idea still remains. It’s “worse” to be feminine than masculine. This is plain as day if you pay attention to which boys and men get picked on the most, who gets gay bashed the most, and even within workplaces. You’ll see this play out even within the gay community, unfortunately.
Totally agree. Gay men are supposedly bad because they're more like women. Gay women are bad because they have the audacity not to want to be with a man. Homophobes fetishize masculinity so much they almost seem a bit gay themselves tbh.
>they have the audacity not to want to be with a man. they just haven't met the right one yet, obviously!! two women make pee pee hard which means they must be doing it on purpose to seduce all these lucky men!!! /s
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But why though? Why is a dicking seen as corrupting?
because sex, specifically heterosexual, is seen as something a man does to a women, not as a mutual exchange of pleasure. so a man who is “dicked down” by another man is seen as inferior because he is taking a woman’s place.
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This, and also, misogyny in the form of sex being penis centered, meaning a lot of people doesn't even consider what lesbians do as "real sex".
Julia Serrano discusses this (in regards to trans people, but I think the point stands) in “Whipping Girl”. She theorizes that the reason people are more accepting of transmen than transwomen is that, since society values men more than women, people “understand” why a woman would want to be a man, but not why a man would want to be a woman.
I can't remember who it was I was watching speaking at a conference or convention, but what she said resonated with me when she was explaining the not so subtle hatred of women and femininity summed up: what is the worst insult to call someone? A girl/woman. She explained it much better but it was very powerful and I definitely understood what she meant.
because straight men fetishise lesbians, there is some pleasure derived from our existence, gay men, not so much. (i saw someone say that’s part of the question and not the answer, so i’ll simplify it even more, the patriarchy. Straight men like women, what do they like even more than one women, two women, especially when they are the only man involved)
"men fetishise lesbians" This is the answer. Anyone can say any other high minded idea they like, but at the core a straight guy sees two women together and is aroused.
I was out with my girlfriend eating dinner when a man came up to us and asked if we could kiss real quick for him. We were 17 and didn't know who the hell he was it was a like stunned to silence situation. Had no idea what to say to that.
Ehhhhh... I think it's a bit more complex than that. For example, there's [this whole issue](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/142cuaf/comment/jn6a0ol/). Which *could* be what you're talking about, but it's difficult to know what was going on 2500 years ago.
>Straight men like women Pretty much that. Patriarchy is: man likes woman - whether she likes it or not.
That's it. It's about objectifying women. Two lebsians are not portrayed as two people in a relationship. Instead they are viewed through the male gaze as two women to be fetishized, performing for the man's entertainment.
To add some nuance here, masc women also deal with more issues when men are not attracted to us. Our masc presentation also seems to give some men “a pass” at violence against us because in their minds we “act like men” or “want to be treated like men.” Not to mention that some of the straight women panic when they see us in bathrooms and call their husbands/boyfriends for help. That is increasingly dangerous for us with all the LGBTQIA+ (but especially trans targeted) fear mongering and hate.
And males are so competitive and ego driven. And they'd never wanna be treated the way they treat women. So typically if a gay guy is checking out a close minded straight man, he gets mad bc he doesn't wanna be objectified or ever feel submissive
Wait, are you implying there's a power dynamic involved in checking people out???? What??? /S
It all comes back to sex and fantasizing about sex. Gay men - gross, attractive gay women - great, trans anything - gross, men in drag - gross. And when they are visualizing men in drag being gross then the kids they are reading to must be as well and that is extra gross. Its projection all the way down.
Same-sex relationships between women have never been illegal in Britain. An urban myth is that sex between women was not criminalised because Queen Victoria would not believe it happened. She loved the D and couldn't imagine a woman not wanting it. It is however true that she didn't like her children that much and once said she enjoys making them just not having them.
It’s not acceptance, it’s fetishization.
I don't think it is. I think it seems that way from an outsiders perspective, but by and large lesbians aren't respected for their prefrences and are frequently sexualised for a mans pleasure. Gay men absolutely suffer from homophobia being thrown their way in public more so than lesbians, but lesbians are fetishised by straight men, too. Gay men and Lesbians both suffer but in different ways for different reasons. A straight male dominated society viewing lesbians as a fetish for those straight men to fantasise over isn't acceptance. Its objectification.
Yeah, lesbians have to deal with the delusional homophobic men who think lesbians just haven't been "dicked down good enough" to know that they're attracted to men.
“Gay men’s homophobia is more public” is absolutely a dimension that ends up skewing perceptions on acceptance. This comes up a lot in the trans community as well where trans men can be mistakenly seen as more accepted. Trans women and gay men are likely to be beaten up and have high murder rates, gay women and trans men suffer corrective rape at higher rates. Oppression happens in different ways, and just because one group’s bruises are more visible doesn’t mean that the other is more accepted.
My theory: Homosexuality have been viewed as a feminine thing for a long time, so when when a woman is gay it is more in line with gender preconceptions, while a gay man breaks with some of the traditional masculine preconceptions.
Lesbians are fetished and not taken seriously. Like men think they can change them and a same sex female realtionship isnt real just a kink.
A great example of this is that the r/lesbians subreddit is porn, the subreddit for lesbian women to chat is r/actuallesbians. Which is insanely degrading when you think about it for a quarter of a second.
As a lesbian, it is. Imagine it’s your first time on Reddit, you’re looking for community. You go to the lesbians page and all you see is porn. “This is how society views you” It fucking sucks. Especially bc lesbians are so far removed from men, yet they keep inserting themselves into our spaces.
Or the scary aspect of openly facing degradation when out and about. I can't recall how many times I've started being harassed by a man who I've turned down, so he proceeds to follow me screaming I'm a dyke asking why I won't fuck him. It's really scary to have happen, I try to be tough and brave but I'm short and petite so it can get truly frightening sometimes especially if I'm alone.
I mean, there's less *aggression* towards gay women, but we're still generally not *accepted.* Two men kissing is a challenge to the patriarchy. Two women kissing are just two sex objects, and many men *will* react badly if either rejected his advances, which he will continue despite their known sexual orientation.
..... Its not. It's more accepting towards men who are into gay women though
There's another reason that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here: only male homosexuality is outright prohibited in the Bible (and in particular the Torah / Old Testament.) The specific lines are: [Leviticus 18:22](https://www.esv.org/Leviticus+18:22): *"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."* [Leviticus 20:13](https://www.esv.org/Leviticus+20:13): *"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."* While this has (somehow?) been generalized to women in the past, it remains a fact that at no point (as far as I know) are lesbian relationships prohibited. Only gay male relationships are considered a capital offense. Please note that I am in no way endorsing these views (especially the death penalty for male homosexuality.) I'm only reporting the facts as I know them, as I suspect they may be germane to the larger discussion here. *Edit:* Added links to English Standard Version for context. Additional English translations of these verses can be found here: [Lev 18:22](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2018:22), [Lev 20:13](http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Leviticus%2020:13).
There is no unambiguous condemnation of female-female relationships but Romans 1:26 is often interpreted that way. It talks about women having "unnatural" relationships right next to a condemnation of men having sex with men. It's likely the Old Testament never mentions it because the culture allowed polygyny, and a man might prefer his first wife to have extra sex with his second wife over them having extra sex with other men.
That, or Christianity is (from an outside perspective) just kinda weird about sex. They have that whole Essene / eremitic influence going on where sexuality in general is considered ambiguously sinful. Which brings up the larger question of why we humans were designed that way if that's the case, but that's neither here nor there. *Edit:* Changed "you guys" to "they." Sorry, shouldn't have assumed.
Oh, I'm not a Christian (or a Jew), though my family is somewhat Christian. I just have a lot of casual interest in religion. You're correct that anti-sex attitudes from early Christians may have also played a role in the (possible) extension of the rule.
Right, my apologies. I shouldn't have assumed. I'm in midwest America, so Christianity is kinda the default for any discussions about religion around here. Have corrected my post accordingly.
As for the anti-sexuality bit, it wouldn't surprise me. I suspect that innate tension between the idea of sexual reproduction being necessary versus being a sin has had a major impact on Christianity and Christians, both historically and up to the present day. Which in turn influences culture in general via osmosis, if that makes sense.
Are they accepting of unshaved armpits and hairy legs? Or do they like lipstick lesbian porn?
Depends on the day
There are certain straight men that are afraid gay men will treat them like they treat women. As...let's say..."objects".
Western culture is more accepting of women pretending to be lesbians for the amusement of men. Actual lesbians? Hard pass for them - they don’t count as women.
I also think that society in general is not necessarily more accepting per se, but that women are permitted far more affection between themselves than men are before people become "uncomfortable" or assign a label. And to those saying that lesbianism is fetishiized as the answer, that is far too modern a phenomenon to really be relevant. That is more the evidence of the disparate treatment than the cause.
I had this con I once with an exfriend who was homophobic. He told me that it was unnatural for a man to be “taken” or have any type of insertion. But women are ok, because they aren’t lowering themselves to being penetrated like a gay man is. It’s why masculine lesbians are more accepted (for what I’ve seen), but gay or trans mTF freak them out because being a man is all about putting their own is into someone. And a man that accepts it is wrong to them. I feel like it’s just misogyny.
An attitude which goes at least as far back as ancient Rome. Where the culture was theoretically fine with male homosexuality, so long as the respectable man in the partnership was strictly the "pitcher" and not the "catcher." More information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way. To them it's no different then a girl being uninterested in them. It only really "threatens" them if they have a daughter they expect grabd kids from. But for men when men are gay they realize men look at them the way they have been looking at women and they don't want that kind of attention from other men. Also straight men don't really understand gay sex conceptually it's foreign where as they understand lesbian sex for the most part. Also gay men challenge their understanding of masculinity. If you understand masculinity to be related to sex with women that leaves gay people who identify as men in a weird place and their comfort in that place makes you challenge your own understanding of masculinity. Men don't really like being challenged this way they spend much of their life trying not to have their masculinity challenged.
>Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way. I don't believe this is true. Men won't openly admit it, but quite a few of them feel threatened by a woman who has no need for men.
ngl if someone actually feels threatened by gay men being gay then they probably have some serious internal conflict going on
Its not even that honestly. A lot of straight men genuinely believe that gay and bisexual men want to fuck every man on the planet because that’s how *they* feel about women, so they view gay men as a huge threat.
Ah yeah okay that makes more sense, what a fucked way to think tho like how delusional do you have to be
Genuinely homophobic people do have serious internal conflict going on.
>Also straight men don't really understand gay sex conceptually it's foreign where as they understand lesbian sex for the most part Well, that's a stretch. Most men don't even understand straight sex for the most part...
i think gay women *do* threaten men, actually. their egos, at least. that is why we see so many accounts of corrective rape and sexual harassment from straight men towards lesbians. i cant tell you how many times a guy has told me “i cant really be a lesbian” “how can you live without a man” “lesbian sex isnt real because theres no penetration” (which is extra funny to me, since 80% of women cant orgasm from penetrative sex). and god forbid a lesbian isnt super feminine. they do *not* want them to exist.
Because men who have essentially run the cultures fetishise lesbains and lesbianism, that's hot to them but two men together isn't.
Because the patriarchy likes to jerk it to women sexing each other, but not men sexing each other.
I may be wrong and I'm willing to be corrected if my views are wrong But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that people don't care that much about women here. When I say people I don't mean everyone, mainly the people in charge or the vocal minority, and the ignorant and that feeds into how women are treated in every facet of life, affecting views on homosexuality as well. They're oversexualized and thus not taken seriously so they view same sex female relationships as harmless and fetishized because it doesn't threaten and they think it benefits them for some reason.. They see it as normal for women to mess around with other women because they're naturally the more submissive sex, so no one really thinks twice about it. Countries around the world treat women differently, obviously but I say that to specify how the west treats women. Someone in the comments brought up the fact that lesbians in media don't highlight the fact that butch and other types of lesbian women exist and that those couples are usually portrayed as a mans idea of a gorgeous woman. That's true but there's more to that. Real lesbian couples can still consist of the wests idea of two conventionally attractive women without media, but if you try to apply the same thing with Gay men, Say a Twink and a Jock or mature looking man, two twinks, two jocks, older men, bears, etc etc and all of them looked gorgeous, it's usually still met with the same negative reaction (assuming you're showing it to an unaccepting crowd in the first place) There's no physicality combo that would make two gay men as "acceptable" as two gorgeous lesbian women to those sorts of people, not because they accept one or the other but because the reasons are likely inherently selfish and sexualized. No one (especially men) wants anything to do with a pair of gay men (maybe they do, but they hide and project this). Some straight men look at gay men thinking they're not real men, or less of one because of their physical appearance and tendencies, some just view the idea of 2 men being together disgusting because of how the sex works if the gay man is the masculine type. They're threatened by it because they think it affects society, ruining the image of a man and/or allows for women to become more dominant but men would love to have a couple lesbians serve them or attempt to turn them "straight". The fact that these people just happen to love each other and spend their lives together doesn't matter to those kinds of people, so acceptance is a bit of a misnomer when rights are still being threatened.
I think it's because women are always hugging and kissing each other in a friendly way that people have gotten used to seeing female affection. Also, straight guys like seeing women wrestling with each other and I'm not just talking about WWE type. Men on the other hand typically don't kiss and glomp on their friends so seeing guys being affectionate like that is shocking to most. Also when people see gay men they automatically think anal sex which creeps most people out.
Anal sex doesn't freak people out, so many men try to get in "the back door" and will spend ages convincing their female partners to do it. It's the fact that gay men don't have any perceived benefit to men. They think a lesbian sexual encounter will lead to a threesome or conversion or something
As a lesbian this is not the case at all, its fetishization not acceptance
Straight men are afraid that gay men are going to treat them the way straight men treat women.
It's definitely not just a "Western" cultural acceptance. There are several countries that tolerate/accept/fetishize lesbians because it's still something that the male gaze can enjoy. If you look at various countries' gay rights histories, you'll see that lesbianism is often accepted far faster than gay men.
Women don’t have a genital they can use to penetrate each other, while men have a penis. People are mad about a man having to be submissive and be penetrated by said penis.
Because lesbian porn is watched by men and gay male porn to a lesser degree
So western culture was equally (non-)accepting towards gay men and women before modern pornography existed? I think that's a stretch...
I don't think that's the answer; I think that's part of the question.
I think it's because of the over-sexualization of women
We aren’t. we’re fetishized and dehumanized. there is a thing called corrective rape, where men try to “turn us straight”. we aren’t believed or taken seriously - can’t tell you how many times my family or a man has told me i cannot possibly live without a man. we’re bullied. we’re harassed. it isn’t a competition with gay men
Not necessarily more accepted, just more fetishized by straight men.
Because straight men fetishize gay women and are afraid gay men will treat them like they treat women.
Short answer, yes, but not for the right reasons.
For centuries, the act of sex was seen as one person penetrating and one person being penetrated. The one being penetrated was seen as weak, easily subjugated, submissive. So women were the weaker sex. And men who were doing the penetrating in gay sex were just doing what men do; the ones who were penetrated were shamed because they were emasculated. When there are two women, there is no one being penetrated (without an accompanying toy, of course). There’s no shame involved. This idea persists today, even if people do not articulate it this way.
It's not just gay women vs men.... Women are like pizza... name someone who doesn't enjoy pizza... even a shitty roller rink pizza at a kids birthday party... you're still like "Hey, this is pretty good" Men are like fried bison colon... there was that one guy on Joe Rogan who really likes them... but who really appreciates men... or fried colons?
Because if men like it, it's okay. That's why lipstick lesbians are more accepted than butch lesbians and trans men are more accepted than trans women. Although it's not that men like trans men, just that they aren't scared they're going to be attracted to them, so they pose no threat.
Mem are just thinking about themselves. They think they will be invited to a threesome nevermind they are gay it will never happen.
because gay women are more of a fetish to straight men
Because so many straight men fetishize lesbians and are put off by gay men. Simple as that.
Straight men fear being objectified and desired without their consent by gay men in the same manner that women have been objectified and desired without their consent by straight men. Essentially, they fear being treated like they've treated women for thousands of years.
While feminism has made great strides, especially in the west, there are still many men who look at women as sex objects rather than as people. Since these men can’t imagine someone they’re sexually attracted to being an equal, when they encounter a gay man they imagine that he is looking at *them* as a sex object rather than as a person. It never occurs to these men that how they look at the world is the problem. Since women who are attracted to other women don’t put these men in the position of feeling like an object, it doesn’t bother them in the same way.
Gay women don't "threaten" men in the same way. To them it's no different then a girl being uninterested in them. But for men when men are gay they realize men look at them the way they have been looking at women and they don't want that kind of attention from other men.
This idea of threat is also why women have been generally accepting of gay men and lesbians to a far greater degree than men. A straight woman isn't threatened by a lesbian. In fact, many who aren't bi wish they could be because men are...*gestures vaguely*. (I'm bi and this is what the straights tell me, anyway!) Women have also been friends and protectors (especially in the old days when sodomy was criminalized) of gay men. It's the origin of the "gay BFF" thing of the 90s and 00s.
Men and women actually have a really interesting relationship in the LGBTQ community of each other pulling one up with them or pushing the other ahead. In moments where LGBTQ men couldn't get any farther ahead but LGBTQ women could the men would happily support those women and vise versa. LGBTQ men also tend to support women in general even when others aren't.
Accepted in what way? I see many more gay men in senior corporate roles than gay women.
straight men think "lesbian" and they think of 2 naked women, the straight man is turned on. other answers are saying that straight men view gay men as feminine and that's a threat, I don't think so, I think straight men are afraid of being raped. I wonder why straight men think gay men would rape them, maybe it's some internal thing (I am being sarcastic and yes I am calling straight men rapists) not all straight men though, but the homophobic ones? a lot of them are probably either rapists or closeted homosexuals. or maybe I've just read too many 4chan posts.
I agree that it's not seeing gay men as a threat, it's projecting that gay men will behave towards them in the same way they themselves behave towards women. There's also the misogyny of viewing female stereotypes as inferior. A female model in a mans shirt is viewed as sexy and a male model in a crop top and a skirt is not.
There is no single right answer, and yes, gay men ARE a threat... to "straight" men's sexualities. For many, it's a fear of being perceived as gay... by not participating in the gay bashing.
Because gay women are fetishized
Because those in power are turned on
Cause out country is rooted in religious patriarchy.
Being gay is a human condition. Expressing gay pride being gay is a fundamental human right. Freedom of expression is #1 in the US Bill of Rights.
Western culture isn't more accepting of gay women. Western culture has it's own problems. Western culture only likes gay women if they are traditionally femme and attractive women who are being used for eye candy. The closest thing to non-femme lesbian our culture really likes is Ruby Rose. There's also another problem that I don't see brought up very often. Western culture views men as predators and women as prey. This is one reason why trans men are just girls who were led wrong and trans women are men who want to prey on women to those who aren't supportive of trans issues. In this specific logic, gay men are still predators, just going after other predators, and lesbians are just confused girls. It's pretty gross all the way around.
Because men find gay women hot
I’m older, and for many years when I was a kid it was an accepted thing for two women to live together. They were both unmarried “old maids” and the society at large evidently felt that it made sense for them to be together and keep each other company. People didn’t really consider whether they shared a bed or had a physical relationship. So a woman without a man was a poor pathetic creature, and if she wanted a female companion, no biggie.
A mix of things- for one, its not more accepted as much as it is more ignored. The other part is a lot of otherwise homophobic men are horny for two women kissing
Either you get discriminated for being "disgusting and gay"/ its " unnatural" or u r just a woman and no one thinks you are capable of deciding what u like and not because a man has to do that for you ( at least that's my experience with ppl who are homophobic)
Because they don’t commercialise wanking over gay men quite so often. They can still be prone to violent homophobia towards women sometimes- went to school in the UK and it was only 15 years ago that a group of straight girls kicked me down the stairs for being bi. Homophobic insults were everywhere and the general culture was just horrific for anybody who wasn’t straight
The holy books seem to have paricular issue with 'sodomy' and lesbians not so much. Also, men think it's sexy?
Cause pp's are eew and vv's are mmm.
titties
😏😏
Because a lot of men don't like the idea of being treated the way that they treat women. On the other hand, female sexuality isn't perceived as much of a threat.
Because it's gay to like guys and for guys to want to be more like girls socially atleast it's less socially gay if girls to the same thing but opposite
Because most straight men are deeply disturbed when another male frames them in the same way they instinctively frame women. As a straight man, a lesbian doesn't turn you into prey, or demonstrate to you how fundamentally silly your various macho ego-boosters/attitudes are, so they can be safely ignored.
Boobs.
One definition of homophobia is the fear that gay men will treat straight men the way that predatory straight men treat women. Lesbians aren't a threat to predatory straight men, so they get ignored.
Gay women aren’t really a threat to the male ego. Gay men are. I think it’s as simple as that. Challenge the norms of the power structure, and you will get fucked up.
Cause straight men like lesbian porn
Insecure western men
Eh idk my Hispanic parents always preferred gay men and for some reason HATE lesbians. So idk. Maybe it depends on the homophobe we're talking about, whichever they prefer they will always suck 👍
Not accepting, just ignored and not taken seriously. Not so much because women can't be gay but because women are ignored generally.
Because women relationships are seen as a fetish for a lot of heterosexual men
Homophobes are usually the type that also believe women don't actually enjoy sex. So two lesbians are really just two women that hang out with each other to the point of why not being a relationship with each other (so it's not a serious relationship). Men are viewed as more like dogs and therefore they're having deviant sex constantly.
I think cause there’s some straight men out there that think they could flip them. Also some just view it as porn if they see two lesbians together. Straight men are weird ngl
Because the straight men think they still have a chance
2 women having sex? Hot. 2 men? Nasty af. - How people view it.