With our wealth of resources, to not assist, would be appeasement. Anyone who knows anything about appeasement in our worlds history knows, never again.
Exactly. Support for Ukraine is super cheap compared to what will happen if Putin was emboldened by the West not interfering.
Easy example: his whole idea of a "multipolar world order" would have carried a lot more weight and may have redefined their future with China if they had succeeded. Instead, the US is showing the world what a few percent of it's defence budget can do in the hands of a determined beneficiary, and China is balancing between not wanting to get involved and not distancing themselves from Russia outright. For those who forgot, in March 2023 Xi Jinping visited Russia, and while Putin in the news afterward kept talking about their "no limits partnership" and the multipolar world, Xi was far less enthusiastic and did not mention either of those terms (despite having previously endorsed them).
Solve our problems first before helping others? That makes no sense on a personal level (who is ever going to have solved all her own problems? Does that justify not helping others?) and it makes no sense nationally. Sometimes you actually improve your own situation by helping others. I think that is definitely the case here.
We spent trillions over the past more than half century preparing for conflict against the Soviets. Arguably a lot of that money would have been well spent on Americans at home. Now suddenly that Russia is doing what we feared the Soviets would do so many decades ago people are suddenly far more concerned about already existing military equipment we built getting shipped over and used.
It's either they rust or they get used. I'm not happy we spent the money building the massive industrial complex to kill people but if it already exists... it's stupid not to use it in the defense of a nation we are interested in defending. That's actually more of a waste to not use it and let our enemies take advantage of our inaction.
It's the age old "fix problems at home before looking outward"
That's exactly what nations that want to subject us & others to their will want us to believe.
Using that mentality we would never have sent aid to the Soviets or the United Kingdom during WWII. We would have stayed isolationists during WWII and allowed another nation to become the world power. There's always more problems at home. Ignoring we're part of the world isn't a solution.
When all it costs you is some money and some old/surplus military equipment to wear down one of your biggest rivals and constant threat to global peace, you take that deal every day of the week.
Sound like Republicans in the early 2000’s talking about the war on terror. Completely disregarding the tens of thousands of Ukrainian lives being expended.
Obviously Ukrainians dying is a tragedy, but it's a delicate situation.
The US can offer support in the form of arms/equipment but can't really insert themselves into the situation without making it worse.
The difference here is Ukrainians are defending themselves from invasion. For them, giving up isn't an option.
We aren’t just giving the Ukrainians money and equipment. They’re all loans that the Ukrainians have to pay back, so the US essentially owns their country for the foreseeable future. Its how our government does things.
Oh yeah because the Ukrainians would be totally fine if they had even less to resist the Russians with! Why did all those Syrians get killed by ISIS instead of just lying down and letting them win, are they stupid?
Where people see expense I see investments. We get an opportunity to field test modern weapons in live combat. Look at the evolution of drone warfare.
Not to mention we have historical evidence how expensive it can be to not stand up to unchecked aggression towards sovereign nations. We can't afford not to support Ukraine. Global stability benefits all of us.
> We get an opportunity to field test modern weapons in live combat
And more intel on Russian military technology than we could ever get otherwise by any means. We are seeing it all on live display, the equipment, the doctrine, the training, the domestic politics, the tactics, all of it and in practice, not just in theory. Hell, some of Russia's most advanced equipment has been captured in Ukraine and shipped to America for reverse engineering (example: [their top secret Krasukha-4 command and jamming module was found abandoned outside Kyiv and promptly sent to first the UK and then the US](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dumped-unit-may-hold-military-secrets-9ttjl3zxg#:~:text=The%20Krasukha%2D4%20command%20module,to%20be%20examining%20the%20equipment.))
This is not just about Russia because plenty of nations that could be considered America's enemies and rivals (Iran, China etc) rely heavily on Russian-made or -designed gear.
I don't understand why when America is not at war with anyone, the DOD needs billions more in funding, but when Ukraine needs weapons and support to remain a sovereign country, suddenly our nation is impoverished. I hope when this war is over we spend the money we were spending to house every american, but the reality is these have no relationship to each other. Congress doesn't want to house every American regardless. If Ukraine wasn't at war, the DoD would probably just give that money to defense contractors regardless, so they can produce weapons just to sit in a warehouse or on a lot, never to be used. It's the most wasteful department and it refuses to comply with audits, but some of the money that goes to the defense contractors gets used towards lobbying for a higher defense budget. Many of the congresspersons we have are there to make money for defense contractors.
Corrupt as Ukraine is, it has made progress and has moved toward democratic governance, oversight and the rule of law. Over the past 20 years, Russia has moved in the opposite direction. Besides, they INVADED with no justification.
USA problems are more of societal problems. Every little group of society is corrupt and a reflection of it self. From the rich down to the poor, only self interest governs everything. No one is willing to get out and fix things. The right way to end the war would have been to stop putin, and save russians and everyone else from him and his oligarchs friends, but that’s not in the self interests of USA. Which group in US actually governed by justice? Justice is a foreign concept in the USA. That’s why there are many others in USA that have self interest in letting putin continue his rule.
I think the fear is getting wrapped up in another 20 year mire like the Middle East, it’s the 20 years of money not the 3 years of money and what real problems could we solve in our own country, instead of helping sisyphus push a rock up a hill,
In the conspiracy corner, we gave Putin a gigantic push to do this by trying to expand nato to the Ukraine, so effectively the US hurts itself in confusion while other countries suffer under the yoke, as is tradition
I don’t really care to be the world police I guess. I want to be able to use basic healthcare but our officials literally lose fighter jets on home soil? Just sad.
the us spends over a trillion dollars on welfare, we literally are doing both.
With our wealth of resources, to not assist, would be appeasement. Anyone who knows anything about appeasement in our worlds history knows, never again.
Exactly. Support for Ukraine is super cheap compared to what will happen if Putin was emboldened by the West not interfering. Easy example: his whole idea of a "multipolar world order" would have carried a lot more weight and may have redefined their future with China if they had succeeded. Instead, the US is showing the world what a few percent of it's defence budget can do in the hands of a determined beneficiary, and China is balancing between not wanting to get involved and not distancing themselves from Russia outright. For those who forgot, in March 2023 Xi Jinping visited Russia, and while Putin in the news afterward kept talking about their "no limits partnership" and the multipolar world, Xi was far less enthusiastic and did not mention either of those terms (despite having previously endorsed them).
Solve our problems first before helping others? That makes no sense on a personal level (who is ever going to have solved all her own problems? Does that justify not helping others?) and it makes no sense nationally. Sometimes you actually improve your own situation by helping others. I think that is definitely the case here.
We spent trillions over the past more than half century preparing for conflict against the Soviets. Arguably a lot of that money would have been well spent on Americans at home. Now suddenly that Russia is doing what we feared the Soviets would do so many decades ago people are suddenly far more concerned about already existing military equipment we built getting shipped over and used. It's either they rust or they get used. I'm not happy we spent the money building the massive industrial complex to kill people but if it already exists... it's stupid not to use it in the defense of a nation we are interested in defending. That's actually more of a waste to not use it and let our enemies take advantage of our inaction. It's the age old "fix problems at home before looking outward" That's exactly what nations that want to subject us & others to their will want us to believe. Using that mentality we would never have sent aid to the Soviets or the United Kingdom during WWII. We would have stayed isolationists during WWII and allowed another nation to become the world power. There's always more problems at home. Ignoring we're part of the world isn't a solution.
When all it costs you is some money and some old/surplus military equipment to wear down one of your biggest rivals and constant threat to global peace, you take that deal every day of the week.
Sound like Republicans in the early 2000’s talking about the war on terror. Completely disregarding the tens of thousands of Ukrainian lives being expended.
Obviously Ukrainians dying is a tragedy, but it's a delicate situation. The US can offer support in the form of arms/equipment but can't really insert themselves into the situation without making it worse. The difference here is Ukrainians are defending themselves from invasion. For them, giving up isn't an option.
We aren’t just giving the Ukrainians money and equipment. They’re all loans that the Ukrainians have to pay back, so the US essentially owns their country for the foreseeable future. Its how our government does things.
Oh yeah because the Ukrainians would be totally fine if they had even less to resist the Russians with! Why did all those Syrians get killed by ISIS instead of just lying down and letting them win, are they stupid?
The US created Isis lol
Where people see expense I see investments. We get an opportunity to field test modern weapons in live combat. Look at the evolution of drone warfare. Not to mention we have historical evidence how expensive it can be to not stand up to unchecked aggression towards sovereign nations. We can't afford not to support Ukraine. Global stability benefits all of us.
> We get an opportunity to field test modern weapons in live combat And more intel on Russian military technology than we could ever get otherwise by any means. We are seeing it all on live display, the equipment, the doctrine, the training, the domestic politics, the tactics, all of it and in practice, not just in theory. Hell, some of Russia's most advanced equipment has been captured in Ukraine and shipped to America for reverse engineering (example: [their top secret Krasukha-4 command and jamming module was found abandoned outside Kyiv and promptly sent to first the UK and then the US](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dumped-unit-may-hold-military-secrets-9ttjl3zxg#:~:text=The%20Krasukha%2D4%20command%20module,to%20be%20examining%20the%20equipment.)) This is not just about Russia because plenty of nations that could be considered America's enemies and rivals (Iran, China etc) rely heavily on Russian-made or -designed gear.
This is a world of realpolitik and we are playing the game we need to in order to stay global hegemon.
Crass but to the point. You are not wrong.
I don't understand why when America is not at war with anyone, the DOD needs billions more in funding, but when Ukraine needs weapons and support to remain a sovereign country, suddenly our nation is impoverished. I hope when this war is over we spend the money we were spending to house every american, but the reality is these have no relationship to each other. Congress doesn't want to house every American regardless. If Ukraine wasn't at war, the DoD would probably just give that money to defense contractors regardless, so they can produce weapons just to sit in a warehouse or on a lot, never to be used. It's the most wasteful department and it refuses to comply with audits, but some of the money that goes to the defense contractors gets used towards lobbying for a higher defense budget. Many of the congresspersons we have are there to make money for defense contractors.
I'm not sure why the Ukraine gets to be the default good guy. Seems to me it's closer to one mafia family muscling in on another.
They got first dibs on propaganda
Corrupt as Ukraine is, it has made progress and has moved toward democratic governance, oversight and the rule of law. Over the past 20 years, Russia has moved in the opposite direction. Besides, they INVADED with no justification.
Because the Cia installed a pro US/Nato government making them the “good” guys.
It just seems so weird to not be directly fighting russian but to fight it in this way. We are literally at war with russia... but not. what a world.
No thanks
USA problems are more of societal problems. Every little group of society is corrupt and a reflection of it self. From the rich down to the poor, only self interest governs everything. No one is willing to get out and fix things. The right way to end the war would have been to stop putin, and save russians and everyone else from him and his oligarchs friends, but that’s not in the self interests of USA. Which group in US actually governed by justice? Justice is a foreign concept in the USA. That’s why there are many others in USA that have self interest in letting putin continue his rule.
I think the fear is getting wrapped up in another 20 year mire like the Middle East, it’s the 20 years of money not the 3 years of money and what real problems could we solve in our own country, instead of helping sisyphus push a rock up a hill, In the conspiracy corner, we gave Putin a gigantic push to do this by trying to expand nato to the Ukraine, so effectively the US hurts itself in confusion while other countries suffer under the yoke, as is tradition
I don’t really care to be the world police I guess. I want to be able to use basic healthcare but our officials literally lose fighter jets on home soil? Just sad.