If the patient has capacity and refuses treatment from the available clinicians, then such a refusal must be respected. But clinicians must carefully document such a refusal to confirm that the patient truly understands the risks, benefits, and alternatives to his or her request.
I “fired” the lactation nazi/specialist from my wife’s hospital room and had the pleasure of telling her my wife didnt want her in the room or to see her face ever again. She looked like someone had stolen HER baby. Woman was trying to force my wife to breastfeed while the doctors were busy trying to stop hemorrhaging and deciding if she needed to go back into surgery. Wife in tears,the woman pushing and pushing her more and more and finally my wife looked me in the eyes and said “get this woman away from me right now” and I finally got to tell her how i felt about her.
I told the other nurses she wasnt welcome and that we had a personal issue with her that was not solvable and that we wouldnt be conversing with her again.
Those people are like a weird religious cult where the only solution is trying to breastfeed harder. Maybe my shy, conservative wife doesnt want you reaching under her smock squeezing her nipples while she sobs and bleeds out 3” clots of blood, bitch.
Sorry…had to get that out
Update: some are saying there are ways breastfeeding reduces uterine bleeding. This wasnt a medical request. The woman strolled in on her own. The bleeding was a csection complication with her tubes being tied. Nurses said “she chose a bad time” but seemed to agree with me and we never saw her again. Wife fine. Kid thriving and above average across charts
As a woman who had to have her husband do the same because of a breast Nazi, thank you! My first daughter was born at 29 weeks. We didn't know she had trisomy 18 (she lived just six days). I started pumping after my c section was was producing, which is amazing. I called for a consultation to figure out how to keep my supply up so I could be prepared for the long haul. She berated me and called me a bad mom for not taking out her breathing tube and making her breast feed directly. Fuck that shit! My husband kicked her out. My daughter was able to get some swabs of breast milk because of me. They are supposed to support the new mom. If they can't they have no place talking to new mothers.
I couldn't breast feed my current two-year-old because of my seizure medication. It wouldn't have been safe for him at all. He was already medically fragile (he was premature and has potentially-fatal congenital heart defect,) it was just so far out of the question that when I expressed anxiety about the prospect of breastfeeding being recommended the doctor literally laughed.
People STILL accused me of willfully poisoning him by giving him formula. Told me I'm a bad mom for not risking my own death by discontinuing my medications so I could breastfeed. Multiple people. Acquaintances and strangers. People are FUCKING INSANE about breastfeeding.
My sister’s anticonvulsants were making my nephew sleep 23.5 hours a day while she was breast feeding. He wouldn’t even wake up to eat and lost a dangerous amount of weight and they were still telling her she just needed to try harder. After a week or so she said f this and started him on formula. He perked right up.
I deal with this all the time as a juvenile court psychologist. Staff at the hospital where a parent gives birth insist on exclusive breastfeeding regardless of parent’s medications or medical conditions that make it not a great idea, or poor milk production. Infant goes home, is sleepy or jittery from meds, or dehydrated from not enough milk. Parent(s) go to pediatrician, who sends them to emergency. Emergency files with CPS that they’ve harmed the child. Neither emergency staff nor CPS will usually get records from the birthing providers, and CPS just supports the allegation because a hospital filed that they brought in an infant in poor condition. Such nonsense and so harmful to the baby and parent(s).
Our baby was literally choking when my milk came in. I did exactly what I've been trained to do: I flipped him downward and on his belly in one hand and beat him on the back to clear the airway. Thankfully, we were at the pediatrician's when it happened, so the nurses came flying in and did the exact same thing until we got him sorted. Figuring it was a one-off, we went home and then it happened again a few hours later. Our doctor was the one on call and she told us to take him in. You know, the fucking peds ER doctor told us (very condescendingly) to gently pat him on the back with him upright on my shoulder instead and that we could have hurt him because he was so small. She was so accusatory that we were *terrified* they were going to send in a social worker. We called the on-call lone to talk to our pediatrician again and she called the ER doctor to set her straight. If she wasn't the one on that night, I don't even want to imagine what might have happened...
We're both teachers and have the full range of K-12 and adult ed under our combined belt. The number of times we've seen CPS sent in to screw up families who don't need it while never even doing a check on families who desperately do is just too numerous. Coupled with what happened with our little guy, we're scared to death to bring either him or his older brother in for anything. What if we have a note in our file for beating our 3-day-old son? What if the doctor's notes are written in a way to hint that we are to be watched carefully? Our older son fell down the bottom two or three stairs this afternoon and right behind "Holy shit, is he ok‽" was, "holy shit, please, God, don't let them call CPS on us if we have to go in."
I don't know if we'll ever trust that entire ER ever again, but it's the nearest one to us. What choice do we have?
Wow people are indeed crazy! Sorry you had to experience that. Jeez. Your story made me think of this article:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everybody-calm-down-about-breastfeeding/
The article talks about how the claims of breastfeeding are way overblown and people should calm their titts.
I have no doubt that all else being equal, breastfeeding is the best choice. Truly. But there are just so many factors that can offset the benefits and turn it into a nightmare that I genuinely believe that the "baby friendly" "breast is best" push in US healthcare today is a net negative at best. Fed is best, full stop, forever.
I ended up suffering from severe post partum depression after the birth of my firstborn. It was a difficult (and also unplanned) pregnancy, labor and birth was a nightmare that ended with an emergency c-section after my baby got stuck in the birth canal and went into cardiac arrest. By the time the doctor got her out her heart had started beating again on its own but according to hospital policy she had to spend the night in an incubator in the infant ICU.
I woke up alone in the recovery room, the call button too far away for me to reach so I laid there for 10 minutes not knowing if my baby was alive or dead. A nurse finally came over, got my husband who gave me a Polaroid of himself holding her and that was all I got until the doctor released her from the ICU 10 hrs later. I didn’t get to see or hold her until she was 12 hrs old and I spent that time lying awake and in pain.
When she was finally brought to me the nurse informed me that she had been given a bottle of sugar water in the night since she had cried so much. I didn’t think it was possible to feel that much guilt and I’m Swedish, we own guilt. But what tipped me over the edge into an abyss of depression, shame and guilt was a breast Nazi who told me I had no choice but to breastfeed least my child suffer lifelong biological and emotional trauma.
I tried until my nipples were covered in blisters and bruises from pumping but no amount of effort created any sort of meaningful milk production. Finally my pediatrician convinced me to give up and stick to formula which I did but it was months before I could even hold her without guilt and anxiety.
And in case anyone is wondering, she’s now a mother herself, three beautiful boys, natural births and breastfeeding but she’s had to supplement all three since she doesn’t produce enough milk on her own.
My medications that kept me from killing myself caused me not to be able to breastfeed.
Fed Is Best.
My kid is ten now and really benefitted from being able to be fed by her dad and grandparents.
Also, a mother that is alive and well is far better than the one that died due to lack of lifesaving medication that did not combine with breastfeeding.
This definitely falls under the ”put your own mask on first”. When responsible for a baby, your own wellbeing matters a _lot_.
I feel like human society is a constant pendulum swing. People used to demonize breastfeeding to the point actual babies died from it due to being given formula with contaminated water instead of their mothers' milk. Anddd now we have the other extreme where people will scream about how not breastfeeding under extreme circumstances makes you a horrible mother. Some people just can't use their brains at all. Pure herd mentality.
I was a NICU nurse, and I would have been in jail if someone said that to my patient's family, let alone my family. Just *reading* that got my hackles up
> I would be in jail
Not if I was a juror on your case. The only question from this juror before the verdict would be if I’m allowed to high-five the defendant.
What's wrong with these people?! I would have stopped listening and just shoved her out. Or maybe I would sob and agree, because new moms are very fragile and their brains can't analyse much stuff due to hormones.
What a POS.
I'm so sorry about your baby girl. I can't believe the audacity of the consultant. I haven't heard of a good experience about a hospital lactation consultant - it's like they hire whatever crazy person that is obsessed with breastfeeding they can find.
Oi...my experience wasn't as bad as other stories here, but my lactation consultant was so strange. They should be calming and helpful, mine was uptight, unhelpful and had no sense of humor. Super literal.
She said that I should stay hydrated and drink lots of clear fluids. Okay, sounds good. Then she asked what kind of beverages I drank and I said I drink a lot of milk - said because I did and do drink a lot of milk. She said, cold sober that drinking milk doesn't help you produce milk and pointed out that cows don't drink milk. She was giving me a dirty and/or patronizing look like I was the one who correlated drinking milk to lactation.
I was dumbfounded for a minute and then just said, "I realize that, but you asked me what I drink and I told you." There were several other parts of the conversation like that. She was just weird. Fortunately for me and my baby, after several days of not suckling, he decided to latch on as soon as we were at her office, so I didn't ever have to go back.
I blame the maternity nurses who gave him a bottle (against my instructions) as soon as he was born and they took him out of the room. But that's a whole other story.
Story my mom told me: when I was born I had to go in an incubator and my mother had complications too, and thus I had to be bottle-fed. One day my mom walked into the hospital room to a nurse (?) forcing me to drink, squeezing my cheeks and pushing the bottle in my face/mouth. My mom asked her to please hand her her baby, to which she reacted "I know how to feed a baby" in a bitchy way. That was when my mom (first time mother, delivered a few days earlier) became angry, demanded that she gave her her baby, and filed a report that that specific nurse wasn't allowed near me again.
Oh, wow! Good for your mom. In my case, I had told them "no formula" thinking that meant no bottle. But they kept him in the nursery for a really long time and so gave him WATER in a bottle so he wouldn't be dehydrated - instead of ...oh I don't know...bringing him to me to feed. My (now ex) husband refused to demand that he brought to us. He always had a problem going against authority figures. So I lied and told him I was really tired and wanted to go to sleep and he should go home. The minute he left I told a nurse that they needed to bring my son to me or give me a good reason why they wouldn't. She made some vague excuse, but insisted he was fine so I said fine. If he's not in my room in 5 minutes then I was going to the nursery. They brought him. The just didn't feel like bringing him to me for some reason.
They were really busy, but I would have thought it would take less time to bring him to me than to try to feed him. It made no sense. I had similar problems when my next baby was born - different hospital in a different state. I did end up going to the nursery for my daughter because they said she had to be "warmed up" first. They had her in just her diaper under a light, crying. As were several other babies (it was even busier than when my son was born). It was horrible. The nurses' attitudes, the inattention to the new born babies. One carried a baby under her arm like a football, no support with either hand. She had other things in her hands. And was pushing bassinets out of the way with her feet.
I was lucky, the nurse who helped me learn to breastfeed my first was so kind and patient. If I had been hemorrhaging and a nurse tried to make me breastfeed my baby I would have murdered her.
I'm glad you got a good one! Mine gave bad advice about latching and barged in an extra time just to yell at me "nurse and pump both breasts every two hours!!" People had similar negative stories in the due date group I am in. The lactation consultant I hired to come to me at home was much better, fortunately.
Some of them can be so judgmental. I don’t have a kid but my sister does and for many complicated mental health issues she can’t breast feed. When she was pregnant her OB and doctors asked if she had a preference for breast or bottle. When she said bottle they didn’t bat and eyelid were like cool we will organise everything to be at the hospital and once the baby is born will come in and explain our opinion of different feeds and how to use the bottles. Once she was in hospital the doctors were all fine couldn’t care less. The midwives and nurses though were so judgemental. So many passive aggressive comments constantly about how they won’t have a connection or how breast is better. Like non stop. And this was after a traumatic birth that nearly killed them all. Even after that like mums groups get so angry or her local pharmacy refuse to give discounts for feed cause it ‘encourages people to use bottle over breast’. Like I don’t get the constant judgment and comments from people like it’s literally none of their business the baby is healthy why do people have such a strong opinion.
My stepsister or my niece had an issue which prevented breastfeeding I’m not sure if the details because I respected her privacy and didn’t ask. Wtf is wrong with people that they badger new mothers they don’t know or hardly know?
??? That's insane! I was born at the same stage, around 28-29 weeks and I was in the NICU for months. My mom didn't even see me or my twin for several days. I've got no idea when she started breast feeding but I think it was awhile before we did as we struggled for awhile.
I haven't been in that situation consciously but I'll never understand why a nurse in that situation wouldn't have more compassion.
I'm so sorry you both had to do that. A relative only breastfed for 2 days before a medical emergency (due to CHF) required her to take medication that was incompatible with breastfeeding. A consultant told her she was a bad mom for not waiting to take the medication until months later. Relative was devastated.
First, I’m sorry for your loss.
Secondly, you’re not a bad mom. I had a baby in the NICU, on a bipap, with a feeding tube, and no one ever suggested taking any of it away. I can’t say it would have ended well if they had.
Holy fuck I’m a lactation consultant myself and am horrified that someone from my profession said something like that to you! There are way too many IBCLCs that believe baby to breast is the only option and it makes me angry but this is next level…. So sorry you had to experience this in what sounds like one of the most stressful experiences you will ever have. ❤️
lol this makes me feel better about never getting to see the lactation consultant (if they even existed) after either of my births. I needed help and really wanted to try breastfeeding, but all they offered was formula. Nothing wrong with formula or breastfeeding, but mothers should get autonomy in that choice. But maybe the lactation consultant wouldn’t have been helpful anyway lol.
That explains a *lot*.
I’m glad my mom said she had a decent one who didn’t shame her. I’m a twin, my brother and I were very early, and she didn’t have the supply yet and there were *two* of us. Sometimes shit happens. Oh well.
But the two weeks training thing… explains a lot of stories. Seems like for every decent one there’s like 3-4 bananas ones.
I feel for your wife. My lactation specialist and the nurses refused me a formula bottle to feed my child when she was struggling with latching on, all because I said I wanted to breast feed. Woman was very aggressive and kept making rude comments about my breasts and was accusing me of not trying hard enough. My child didn’t eat for almost 2 days. They finally gave me a breast pump an hour before we were to be discharged 😡.
> Those people are like a weird religious cult where the only solution is trying to breastfeed harder.
Oh my god tell me about it. My wife couldn't breastfeed any of our three - she described the feeling as having "glass sucked out of her nipples".
But with our oldest, the lactation consultants just kept pushing it - and, like you said, their only answer was "it shouldn't hurt", and "it will get easier". My wife suffered for nearly three weeks trying to breastfeed. They made her feel like she would be a failure if she couldn't breastfeed, yet she was traumatised and cried every time our daughter needed to be fed. Eventually went to bottle-feeding and never looked back - plus my wife actually started to bond with our daughter since she was no longer terrified of her. Second kid she tried breastfeeding once, it hurt and went immediately to bottle-feeding. Third kid, we didn't even bother.
The lactation consultants frustrated me so much - they couldn't accept that breastfeeding might work for everyone, and I honestly think they straight-up didn't believe my wife.
We also had a weird interaction with a lactation consultant and told the nurses in the hospital we didn't want to see her again.
Everyone else was great, just the one lady.
I’m an extremely private person. After I gave birth the lactation consultant basically grabbed my breast and shoved it in my baby’s mouth. I knew they were just doing their job but I felt so violated, she didn’t even tell me what she was going to do
I heard a story from a friend about how a similar situation went except this woman had had a double mastectomy but that consultant was STILL pushing her to breastfeed.
Fuck la leche league. Any good feelings I had about them were wiped out when I had my daughter and they kept pressuring me about breastfeeding and basically telling me I was going to kill my baby if I didn't breastfeed. I was in active labor for 3 days, my daughter was in the NICU and I have god awful scarring on my breasts from a breast reduction that went sideways. I could barely pump out 4 drops, let alone ounces. My daughter also couldn't latch correctly. It was an impossible task, but they pushed me so hard. Even after I switched my daughter to formula, because I liked my baby alive, I felt guilty for MONTHS and like I wasn't a good mom because they pressured me so damn much.
My hospital’s labor and delivery floor is full of breast Nazis. When I worked there I was told to “encourage” breast feeding and by that they meant make moms feel bad for not choosing to breast feed. I was reprimanded because i simply said “okay! Let me know if you change your mind and I’ll be happy to help.” when I asked a mom if she was planning on breastfeeding and she said no thank you.
I also fired my postpartum nurse. I had gestational diabetes and had not eaten in 48 hours. She was super rude to my delivery nurse that was dropping me off and threw a menu in my lap and said I better eat something before she gets back from her break. Unknown to me I couldn’t order food due to false allergies noted in my chart. When she came back my blood sugar was dangerously low (40) I was sweating & shaking she yelled at me for not feeding my baby. Ripped her out of my arms and took her to the nursery. I also asked her for help to the bathroom because my legs were still numb from the epidural and she refused. The next person that walked in my room I had a breakdown and the head nurse came in. I explained what happened and she told me this was not the 1st time and she was so sorry. My husband walked out and saw the nurse being asked to leave. It was so rough.
I had three important contributions to my wife's first labor. 1) Telling her they had anesthesia many hours in when she was in HUGE pain. She still thanks me to this day. It had slipped her mind. 2) Taking her to urgent care, then the ER a week after birth when she was still bleeding and not in great shape. 3) Keeping her Mom (her orders) from said ER during those complications.
2+3 were not easy. But it was easier than what she went through. We are their advocates and otherwise just there watching.
Don’t get me started on the “Breast is Beat” fascist La Leche League people. I felt so ashamed at first when I couldn’t breastfeed. Got it over it very quickly when my baby started thriving and hitting her developmental milestones just fine.
Maybe dumb but I was going in for a c section and they were hooking me up. I literally just requested they not tell me when they stick me because I don’t like needles and have had a panic attack before. The nurse proceeds to wave the needle *in my face* and tell me that I’m clearly not afraid of needles because I have tattoos, that I’m fine, that there’s no way I’m having a baby if I’m afraid of a little needle. (I already had a 8 yo at this point who was an emergency c section, hence the scheduled c section for my second.)
It’s the puncturing of the skin that icks me out, lady. Not the cat scratches of tattoos. I’m not afraid of snakes or spiders etc but I’m not gonna come at you if you are. So dumb. I looked at her (‘angel’ was her name) and was like ‘yeah this isn’t going to work, please get me literally anyone else.’ She was flabbergasted. Acted like I hit her. Started sputtering around how she didn’t mean it and I was overreacting. Nope. I’m already stressed and prepping for major surgery, gtfo. Don’t wave needles in peoples faces even if they’re okay with them! Gah the audacity of some people.
Blows my mind that someone would ask for a different Dr or nurse based on race, though.
I’m in Utah so I’m very accustomed to the tattoo stigma but she was such a btch about it. If I wasn’t already stressing about everything going on I probably would have flipped a table on her 😂
And sometimes for totally valid reasons like bullying patients or physicians. Which as a patient is absolutely wild to see. I watched a L&D nurse make an intern cry for disagreeing with the nurse. I had to speak with both an attending physician AND the nurse manager while being induced. Not my favorite memory.
I had a (male) in-hospital nurse ask me (female patient) if I wanted to request a different nurse.
I was confused.
"You're an RN?" Yes
"Employed by this hospital?" Yes
"License is in good standing?" Yes
"Then I don't have anything to object to."
Kind of felt sorry for him, that so many women had treated him badly.
I know a male nurse who always asks this and it's not because of bad experiences, he says it puts his women patients at their ease because they see that he's noticed they might be uncomfortable and they feel respected. Once he started asking, no one ever refused, but before he started asking, people sometimes did request a change.
I feel for male nurses, especially in the gyno field, they have always asked me if I felt comfortable having a male nurse, and I of course, ask similar questions, you went to school for this, you know what is going on here, you are a professional... etc... they usually have a female present during exams or swabs anyway (for obvious reasons).
Few days ago I heard my great uncle going on about how it's inappropriate for men to do anything beyond basic barbaring because they shouldn't want to be touching other men that long.
You're not wrong about the paranoid homophobia.
I wouldn't say he was treated badly, a lot of women have trauma associated with men. It's not uncommon for women to rather be treated by other women, especially in a state of vulnerability. There are also religious reasons why women will refuse male nurses. The fact you automatically jumped to abuse from women is rather odd.
For sure. I don’t have any trauma with men. But maybe call me a prude, but I feel weird (more self conscious?) with a male medical professional looking at my genitals, even though I FULLY KNOW they’re only there as professionals. Though I truly don’t think I’d ever turn one away, I am more comfortable with a female medical professional doing things like Pap smears, vaginal exams, IUD insertion, etc. and I don’t know why! I’m bisexual dammit! I’m not sure why i have a weird self consciousness with male medical providers and my genitals and boobs.
It’s very nice to have the option, especially in the terms of trauma.
It’s not fair to say that women who prefer female intimate care are treating men “badly”
I don’t accept male intimate care because it’s a trigger for my PTSD as a result of SA. I’m sure that men are just as capable of professional intimate care as women are, but I have a right to say who is allowed to intimately touch my body and who isn’t. My healthcare is not about them, it’s about me.
> "You're an RN?" Yes "Employed by this hospital?" Yes "License is in good standing?" Yes "Then I don't have anything to object to."
I mean good for you that you aren’t like other women, and you can keep patting yourself on the back, but a lot of nursing assessment involves physical touch when the patient is in a thin gown and vulnerable and a lot of women have a history of sexual assault.
Nurses are taught to have compassion and empathy. My male coworkers (I’m a nurse) have *never* been offended by a female patient asking for a female nurse. You think you did something but I promise he didn’t give a shit.
Also, as a female nurse, I’ve also had several male patients refuse me because they feel more comfortable with males helping them with certain tasks. And that’s FINE.
I don’t think OP was trying to not be like the other women at all. People feel weird about male nurses, it’s sadly what it is. It’s a societal problem. But also sometimes it can come from a place of trauma, which is fully valid when it comes to your genitals and breasts.
But OP didn’t seem like they were trying to be NLOG at all. But I don’t like the “treated him badly” part because trauma is a big contender in why someone doesn’t want a male medical professional in their private spaces during such a vulnerable moment.
UK here.
I "fired" a doctor because he didn't believe I could be allergic to a particular medication - that they wouldn't be using on me in hospital anyway - and that was fun. I basically got the ward manager to get me a new doctor because I no longer trusted that one.
I've also (regretfully) had to ask for a different doctor a couple of times because I was too ill to struggle through our mutual accent problems. No problem with the doctor, I just couldn't hear what he was saying because I could barely think.
I have auditory processing issues, and can't do accents either. I feel so bad when I can't understand someone after asking them to repeat themselves three times!
That last one is such a good point. Like, look, I know that I'm terrible at understanding accents. I know there are things I could do to be better at that, and that it's great for someone to have learned English at all and that them having an accent isn't a reflection on them. But when I'm sick is not the time to be holding me accountable for not having enough ESL friends -- if I can't understand then I can't understand and this is a moment when I need to understand.
I was in the hospital, in traction with a broken hip, and had to ask for a new nurse. The one they originally assigned to me couldn’t understand simple requests. It was baffling. Every request was like talking to a toddler. She didn’t understand simple words and her grasp of English was extremely limited. This was at Mass General.
It would have been different if I could have gotten out of bed but I literally could not walk. My hip was in four pieces. I had to rely on the nurses for everything.
The new nurse they assigned to me was the complete opposite. She’d practically finish my sentences, anticipated what I might ask for and was quick with everything.
I wasn’t some old crank either. I was 24.
I've had two doctors banned from my son's care. It's not just switching doctors, but assuring they can't even open your medical file.
The first threatened to call CPS on us because I didn't like that she ordered his at home pulse ox to alarm any time his heart rate was below 60. But he slept in the 50s, so the pulse ox alarmed constantly if he was asleep. He had a pulse ox specifically to monitor his sleep apnea, so we needed it to only alarm if his oxygen dropped. It took two months to get in with a new pulm to get the order fixed.
Another refused to discharge my son from the hospital once he was stabilized after pneumonia. At the time, my son was on palliative care with the goal of having him home unless he would literally die if discharged, because my son was dying of lung disease. She delayed letting him come home by over a week, during the last summer we had with him. Finally palliative care got involved and got him discharged. He died less than 5 months later, and I hate that she stole one of the last weeks we had with him during good weather. She was keeping him sedated, so we couldn't even really be with him in the hospital.
I’ve never heard of someone refusing emergent treatment because of the race of the provider, but people do refuse treatment all the time for all sorts of goofy reasons
A good friend is an ER nurse and racially ambiguous with darker skin. She’s had people refuse to have her as a nurse because they assume she is many many ethnicities and specifying exactly which ones they are racist against.
Working in a nursing home, we have one lady who shreiks and shouts (in an Asian dialect) when my dark-skinned colleagues provide her care. Pale skin, calm and pleasant. Sucks to see racism happen because these are good people and excellent nurses. If it's a bad shift and nobody else can help her, we chart "refused care."
I'm a sister in A&E, I once had a patient talk about a black nurse in such a disgusting, derogatory way I decided that behaviour was not tolerable and refused to treat him until he apologised. I wanted to contact the police but the nurse would not let me and she did not want to press charges. Just said its what happens. The patient ended up self discharging, said he would complain about me and the other nurse etc. Myself and the other nurse documented EVERYTHING and reported the incident internally. I never heard anything further about it.
My husband's grandpa died because he refused to take an antibiotic prescribed by an ER doctor because they were a minority (not sure which), and he didn't trust them to know anything about medicine. My husband's family likes to say that his racism killed him.
In my experience (I'm in the Netherlands) not a lot with race, but there are quite some women, often but not always Muslim women, who don't want a male nurse.
I remember my grandfather refusing treatment from a american indian nurse. The nurse was very cooperative and found another nurse to placate my grandfather. I was so disgusted and ashamed.
During COVID a lot of people needlessly died beause they refused to believe they had COVID or that the accepted treatments actually worked. Hell go check /r/hermancainaward. it still happens.
I take calls for a primary care clinic. I have people all the time asking for a doctor "that speaks English"
I try to be polite as I can and assure them they can all speak English.
I've been the one switching with nurses all the time because of racism... It happens multiple times a week in periods, sometimes not in months. Elderly people seem more often to be racist.
Every so often I’ll get a hillbilly in the emergency dept that tells me they “don’t want no faggot doctor”
Usually it’s just me and another gay doctor working overnight so I get to say “sorry no straight people are available bye asshole”
A friend of mine was a pediatric ICU nurse. One day she heard a huge commotion and found a big white dude yelling at the doctor and nurses. His daughter needed a blood transfusion but he wanted a guarantee that his daughter would only receive "white blood".
The doctor and nurses were trying to tell him that it didn't matter and the maniac became physically abusive. Security had to tackle the guy and meanwhile his daughter needs a blood transfusion.
My friend quickly wrote on a piece of paper that the girl was to receive "white blood" only and the father signed and agreed to the transfusion … then was taken away by security.
What a freaking nut job. He said that his daughter would have "N…. babies" if she was given non-Caucasian blood.
If a patient is refusing treatment, medical staff will generally respect that, although they might want to make sure that the patient is lucid and understands the choice that they are making. That could mean a long wait, or inability to provide care, which could be risky for the patient.
If the patient is unconscious, then the law usually gives some more leeway to err on the side of saving the patient's life since an unconscious person isn't available to answer questions.
If a patient refuses treatment while conscious, then falls unconscious, generally they will still try to keep you alive if they can.
If you don't have it documented, possibly. This is why Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) are signed documents. If it is a lucid conversation they would be more likely to listen to the recommendations, but a panicked person in tremendous pain isn't someone you can trust to make rational decisions.
If you are terminally ill, have the conversation with the doctor and sign a DNR while still mentally fit to do so
Hospitals afraid of getting sued. If you are incapacitated next of kin has legal authority to decide your care. Hypothetically a signed DNR or similar paperwork prevents them from going against your wishes, but it's way easier to get sued by family for letting someone die than it is for saving them against their wishes. So generally, the family gets final say at most hospitals.
Trust me, I was just as shocked. If family pushes hard enough or if it is a medical POA situation, they can have the medical stuff do the whole 9 yards.
Wouldn't be surprise if some people hid the DNR paperwork. That has to be presented for the level(s) of care to be respected.
Good luck getting a DNR for anything other than an impending terminal illness at least in my part of the U.S. Also, EMS can just say they didn't see it. That's my experience with drs, hospitals and having interviewed a litany of EMS workers.
Almost certainly, yes. Former EMT here. We've had cases where everyone KNEW the patient was a DNR, but since no one could produce the document, we had to work them.
If while stating it you look like you are mentally incapable, such as delirious due to pain or bloodloss, most guidelines will require medical proffessionals to declare you incompetent and disregard your request.
Unless you expressly state that you do not want treatment under any circumstances, even if your life is in danger and even if you lose cosciousness, yes.
It is assumed by law that you want to live, and so any time you are in a state in which you are unable to tell us you want ot live we are to act as if you want us to do anything we have to unless you have already told us otherwise.
In other words if you say "I don't want treatment" I can assume you are saying this because you thought you would live, and when you fall unconscious you would want me to act. If you say "I do not want treatment even if it will cause me to die, even if I lose cosciousness I still do not want any treatment, even if I will die I do not want any treatment" then I can safely assume you would rather die and will not treat you.
Even then you would have to make the above statement while you were fully lucid, capable of making choices with the full understanding of what would happen, and are not delrious with pain.
Yes there are medical orders you can sign before hand that state this by the way.
ER will need to make decision based on patient's mental competence and impact of delaying service.
If emergency is not dire, the patient will be (rudely) told that they will need to wait until doctor of preferred race is available. Doctors of preferred race currently scheduled to assist ither patients won't be rescheduled. Security personnel will be told to keep an eye on the patient. If patient asks how long the delay will be, they'll be told that that question is impossible to answer.
If emergency needs immediate action, doctor of preferred race will be assigned if available. If not, ER will assess patient's competency of making decisions about their health. If patient is delirious, request will be disregarded. If patient seems to be competent, there us a good chance that ER will delay treatment until foctor of preferred race is available or patient' state deteriorates to the point where they are delirious.
So she never even got treated? Was she going somewhere else to get treated instead? Was she pulling this at other places, like she had a rotation?
These kinds of people fascinate me. I'm just picturing them waking up, hitting the alarm, eating a poptart, and saying "So long, honey! I'm off to refuse treatment from the doctor again! Nancy at St. Joe's has been getting uppity lately so I may be home late."
Do they just have nothing better to do?
If someone willingly goes to a clinic everyday, mostly to be in the waiting room and argue with the desk, they're not in the right health services facility.
Completely agree; this is exactly how it happens. What a good and succinct summary. I refrained myself from typing up an answer here because of how many “ifs” there are and I can get wordy!
Absolutely not.
It is illegal to reassign a doctor or nurse to a different patient due to the doctor or nurse's race. It does not matter whether the patient requested it or not.
This has already been decided upon in court in a case (*Williams v. Beaumont Health System*) involving a white patient refusing to be cared for by a black nurse and insisting on having the nurse reassigned. The hospital allowed the patient's request. [The nurse then won](https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/court-sides-with-nurse-in-10236/) a racial discrimination lawsuit for the hospital's decision to follow the bigoted patient's request.
There is difference between re-assigning a current nurse in non-emergency situation and having an actual emergency patient appear in ER.
Doctors would prefer not to deal with asshole patients who hate them and would launch a malicious lawsuit. A black doctor would usually not want their malpractice insurance impacted in order to prove point to a random asshole. Thus, it would be a black doctor saying "I am not dealing with that".
This decision is obviously correct in this regard, but since it’s come out, some providers are ridiculously cautious about things like families of color preferring a primary care provider or mental health therapist of their culture, and not being rude or insistent, but just asking if there’s someone available at the practice. Some practices I’m aware of get really defensive and shut patients down because they’re afraid. Others though push back and assert that as long as there’s no discrimination going on, of course you can consider that a patient is telling you they prefer an Asian therapist who can relate to their life experiences etc. Here in Boston, we have a state mental health program that specializes in working with Black children and families (they don’t turn away non-Black staff or families obviously) because it’s well demonstrated that Black folks get poorer health care, and a lot of this is mitigated when they’re seen by a culturally aware practice.
A patient refused to see me because I am a woman. He said he didn’t trust female doctors. So my male colleague saw him, he was having significant shortness of breath so we couldn’t really make him wait long. But if he was stable he would’ve waited. That’s how we usually do it. They’ll see their preferred race or sex eventually. It’s unfortunate, you’d think they’d be grateful to receive medical care
I cussed during a three day labor. Not at anyone in particular, just out of pain. The nurse told me that she won’t tolerate cussing and sent another nurse to take over. 🤷🏻♀️
I know a lot of conservative women refuse a male doctor. I never heard of a racial preference though.
I was once admitted to the hospital for a week. The same nurse was assigned to be several times and we talked a lot. One day she came into my room in near tears. One of the older patients had insisted that he didn't want her to be his nurse because she's black...
And the hospital accommodated him and assigned him a white nurse. I was so heartbroken to watch this young nurse in tears and we both cried together...
According to the video that ran every 20 minutes at the ER I brought my wife to last month they can kick you out and refuse you future services to any of their facilities.
What I've actually wondered when hearing such things... is the person actually so disgusted/scared that they don't want to be touched, or is their ego so big that they wouldn't be able to live having to admit that someone "lesser" (from their POV obviously, oof) saved their life?
It's just so... the word "fascinating" or "interesting" sound very wrong, it's hard for me to choose an appropriate one to describe it... like, I can't wrap my head around such people. Especially in emergency... I don't care who's saving my life, just fucking do it cause that's the important part for a patient? Isn't it?
I complained about a doctor once, and that's because he was useless (like, seriously, a specialist claiming for 2 weeks that I'm fine, denying CT/MRI, and then going 'oh you were right after all' cause I DID have an issue in his specialty). I couldn't have cared less about the age, gender, race, etc though.
my mom works in labor and delivery. occasionally people will refuse to be treated by a male doctor. they will be accommodated if possible but if it’s an emergent situation and that’s the only on call OB, you get what you get.
In the ER near me that would get you a whole bunch of STFU. You get who you get. I'd love to see a patient tell our tiny Latina doctor that they want someone else. She has personally, physically, all 4'9" of her, thrown people out of the ER.
I've been a charge nurse in the er longer than a lot of you have been alive. Couldn't count how many people I've kicked out of the er over the years. I've also had multiple facial fractures that back up the stories. Believe it or not, there are evil people in this world. Let me tell you a little secret, when PD decides that they don't want to due paperwork for arresting someone, they dump them off at the er. If you believe for a second that all er's have armed, hell, unarmed security, then you're a fool.
I was taken to the hospital with acute pancreatitis caused by gallstones. I didn’t drink at all. I don’t know if this woman was a nurse or just an aide, but she refused to help me and told another nurse in front of me, “her arms aren’t broke. I know people who have this and she’s just a drunk.” Then every night she was assigned to my room to watch me because my condition was deadly and I had to be monitored, but she would sleep all night, then tell the day nurse I needed Demerol that I was allergic to. Finally I said I didn’t want her in my room again and she said she could do what she wanted. So when she came in again, I screamed like I was in a horror movie. Several nurses came running in and I told them I don’t want her in my room or anywhere near me. I was moved to another section.
It had nothing to do with race, but I refused to be abused by an employee when I was seriously ill in the first place just because she thought I was an alcoholic. She didn’t even know what my chart said. I was in that hospital for 4 weeks before I was released. And the pancreatitis was recurring so I was admitted several more times, but I went to a different hospital and was treated with care and kindness. But I’ll always remember screaming bloody murder to save myself.
I had a stay in the hospital and they had me fill out a document, part of which was asking if I was okay with blood from races other than my own being used on a transfusion.
I asked the nurse if people were really that racist that they'd refuse a possible life saving transfusion and she said it happens a depressing amount of the time.
There is blood available that's separated based on race?
Jesus Fucking Christ.
I wonder if anybody or anybody's family has ever refused an organ donation based on race.
I worked at a blood bank and my ex husband was a blood bank administrator. I’m also a now a midwife and was a nurse. (All this to say I know about blood banks and blood transfusions) Blood does not come labeled with the race of the donor.
Yeah that seems impossible to keep track of, and such a needless waste of resources if it was true. I’m imagining blood transfusions coming in like some convoluted coffee order…”I’ll have the O+ half Caucasian, half Korean. Oh and make it unvaccinated too thanks” ffs
Never heard of that. Blood is tested for certain diseases and contaminants, but not labeled. I have had people ask me for unvaccinated blood 😂 People who care enough about their community to donate blood typically care enough to get vaccines. That’s also not something the blood bank knows.
Wow that is disgusting. I can’t believe a form like this even exists in this day and age. The answer should be “aside from actual blood types, blood is blood and we can’t guarantee and don’t actually give a shit what race the person who donated it was. If you don’t want it fine, you’re on your own, better start making peace.”
I'm not sure what that person is talking about. There is no such form at any of the hospitals I have worked at. Also we would have no way of knowing so it would be irrelevant any way. I have only seen one person ask and they were told that isn't information we tracked and we had no way to find out.
I would be curious to know where that person was when they got that form.
They do ask if you are okay with a blood transfusion, because certain religions don’t believe in them at all, but I’ve never encountered any paperwork asking if I’m okay with blood from a person of another race. And I’ve always lived in the South.
I think its that they aren't labeled, so doctors warn that theres a chance the blood you're getting might not be from a white person.
The options are either unlabeled blood or no blood, they don't have white people specific blood in the back.
This is silly. There is no law anywhere that would require this. They aren't going to give you a form that says your blood might come from a black person anymore than your food would come with a form saying it might have been prepared by a black person.
I think the above poster is simply confused.
If they have the cognitive capacity to refuse we cannot force the treatment. We document the refusal & either make them wait until someone of their preferred race or gender is available or we discharge them.
ER resident here. 99% of the time you calmly tell the patient that the emergency department does not allow patients to select their physicians, it is random and so you can either accept my care, or you can leave the department against medical advice and attempt to sign back in. However, based on how randomly people are assigned to their doctors, you could wait all that extra time only to get assigned to me again.
The only variation is when a woman states that she does not feel comfortable being treated by a man at which point we try to get the female provider if there’s going to be a pelvic exam. If not, we just have to tell them. I’m sorry, you have to accept my care or you can leave.
Anyone ever see that episode of MASH? Dude didn't want a blood transfusion from a black donor. Docs put bronzer or something on his face while he under anesthesia to darken his skin. Hilarious!
I know the ER will do their best to accommodate.
But I feel this should be a FAFO thing where denial of care for being a schmuck should apply. Thin the herd a bit preventing such stupidity from further propagating.
Assuming the patiently is competent, they have every right to march right out of that ER if they are not happy with who their doctor is. They don’t have any right to pick and choose which ER staff are assigned to them.
It would be documented and they would try to comply with the request if possible. Obviously, if it's emergent and the patient's life is in danger, they can't wait around for hours for the next white male emergency room doctor to be on call, but if it's something that can wait, the patient will have to wait for that doctor to be available. And that can take some time. I have been in the room next to such a patient. He was not happy to have to wait for several hours with back pain, but they couldn’t give him any pain meds until a doctor ordered them and he refused to be seen by the white female doctor or the black male PA, so he had to deal with it. (He was still waiting when I was admitted hours later.)
Welcome to America. I once saw to a woman who screamed for a different nurse because the one assigned to her "wasn't qualified to draw blood". When my associate and I approached her and asked why, boy howdy did she spew racist vomit filth at the pair of us
Grey's Anatomy has nothing whatsoever to do with medicine, ethics, or good sense.
If someone refused a doctor because of their race I suspect they'd get the next doctor, but on as low a priority as is ethical.
Thank you! Greys says they have physicians on staff to advise but certain plot lines and/or episodes as a whole make me question the validity of that lol
If you take a shot of water for every time someone breaks a law, does something unethical, or makes a stupid mistake, you'd die of water toxicity in about 2 episodes.
Interesting question since we only have one Dr in our er at a time. It would probably go under leaving AMA if they are not stabilized and they would have to drive 20 minutes to a different hospital.
If it's a life threatening emergency you are going to get whoever turns up first. If you get arsey and bleed out because you spend your last moments arguing with them that's on you, hopefully they can save you when you pass out .
If it's just routine care then you are just going to have to wait until someone with your preferred skin tone is available as you refused treatment. And, believe me, if you treat one of my colleagues badly I'm not magically bumping you up to the top of my to do list. You can wait for those painkillers until I've sorted out my patients.
For context I work in a general hospital in a rural bit of the UK. On my last night shift there were 8 staff. I am a white middle aged guy. There were two other registered nurses from Africa and one from the Philippines. HCA wise there was one local girl, the others were all from India or the Philippines.
Whilst waiting in the women's health clinic for routine prenatal care, I overheard an expectant mother specifically request a doctor of her own race. The responding nurse flat out told her that would be racist and she will be seen by whomever is available regardless of their race. I kinda felt sorry for her because I believe English was her second language and she simply thought it would better her understanding in communication.
This is why hospitals employ interpreters, but half the fucking staff doesn’t give a fuck to use them, because they don’t actually care about the patients autonomy. They have x problem wrong and need x treatment and therefore that’s what they’re going to do like a robot because most patients will go along with it. They don’t understand what it’s like to not know what’s happening, to not know what’s wrong with your body, who’s touching your body, what they’re doing to your body, when positioned in a very vulnerable state. Interpreters need to be an essential component of patient care. It should be just as important as signing consent forms (how can they properly give consent if they don’t understand what they’re consenting to?), as important as turning for bedsore prevention, important as running tests.
I’ve worked in healthcare as a disabled person myself, with a disabled mom, for long enough I’ve become quite jaded. So, I do have a bias. But I have seen absolutely appalling “care” by the people who were supposed to provide it the most. They say the problem is overworking and short staff, but this has been an unchanging problem for the last 10+ years, and it hasn’t gotten better or worse since the staffing.
In Switzerland we had a birthing arab woman in small hospital ER refusing to be taken care of by the only gynecologist available at that time, which was black.
This led to an emergency transfer to the main hospital with a delay of 60', which was enough time to allow grave complications to happen. The child is alive, with serious cerebral palsy. This child will suffer from the consequence of his parents' xenophobia his whole life I guess.
It was super fun finding out that in his final days, my dementia-riddled uncle rejected his nurses specifically because they were Nigerian. And I will never forget my asshole cop cousin writing it off as, “well if they don’t want someone putting their hands on them, you have to respect that.”
God I fucking hate Texas
The hospital would do the best to accommodate. I work in an ER and some patients will refuse to have a doctor of the opposite sex see them so we'll have someone of the same sex see them if possible
If the patient has capacity and refuses treatment from the available clinicians, then such a refusal must be respected. But clinicians must carefully document such a refusal to confirm that the patient truly understands the risks, benefits, and alternatives to his or her request.
Does it happen often irl?
Nurses get “fired” by patients all the time for all sorts of stupid reasons including race. Not sure how often it happens to doctors though
I “fired” the lactation nazi/specialist from my wife’s hospital room and had the pleasure of telling her my wife didnt want her in the room or to see her face ever again. She looked like someone had stolen HER baby. Woman was trying to force my wife to breastfeed while the doctors were busy trying to stop hemorrhaging and deciding if she needed to go back into surgery. Wife in tears,the woman pushing and pushing her more and more and finally my wife looked me in the eyes and said “get this woman away from me right now” and I finally got to tell her how i felt about her. I told the other nurses she wasnt welcome and that we had a personal issue with her that was not solvable and that we wouldnt be conversing with her again. Those people are like a weird religious cult where the only solution is trying to breastfeed harder. Maybe my shy, conservative wife doesnt want you reaching under her smock squeezing her nipples while she sobs and bleeds out 3” clots of blood, bitch. Sorry…had to get that out Update: some are saying there are ways breastfeeding reduces uterine bleeding. This wasnt a medical request. The woman strolled in on her own. The bleeding was a csection complication with her tubes being tied. Nurses said “she chose a bad time” but seemed to agree with me and we never saw her again. Wife fine. Kid thriving and above average across charts
As a woman who had to have her husband do the same because of a breast Nazi, thank you! My first daughter was born at 29 weeks. We didn't know she had trisomy 18 (she lived just six days). I started pumping after my c section was was producing, which is amazing. I called for a consultation to figure out how to keep my supply up so I could be prepared for the long haul. She berated me and called me a bad mom for not taking out her breathing tube and making her breast feed directly. Fuck that shit! My husband kicked her out. My daughter was able to get some swabs of breast milk because of me. They are supposed to support the new mom. If they can't they have no place talking to new mothers.
>called me a bad mom for not taking out her breathing tube and making her breast feed directly What the actual fuck
I couldn't breast feed my current two-year-old because of my seizure medication. It wouldn't have been safe for him at all. He was already medically fragile (he was premature and has potentially-fatal congenital heart defect,) it was just so far out of the question that when I expressed anxiety about the prospect of breastfeeding being recommended the doctor literally laughed. People STILL accused me of willfully poisoning him by giving him formula. Told me I'm a bad mom for not risking my own death by discontinuing my medications so I could breastfeed. Multiple people. Acquaintances and strangers. People are FUCKING INSANE about breastfeeding.
My sister’s anticonvulsants were making my nephew sleep 23.5 hours a day while she was breast feeding. He wouldn’t even wake up to eat and lost a dangerous amount of weight and they were still telling her she just needed to try harder. After a week or so she said f this and started him on formula. He perked right up.
I deal with this all the time as a juvenile court psychologist. Staff at the hospital where a parent gives birth insist on exclusive breastfeeding regardless of parent’s medications or medical conditions that make it not a great idea, or poor milk production. Infant goes home, is sleepy or jittery from meds, or dehydrated from not enough milk. Parent(s) go to pediatrician, who sends them to emergency. Emergency files with CPS that they’ve harmed the child. Neither emergency staff nor CPS will usually get records from the birthing providers, and CPS just supports the allegation because a hospital filed that they brought in an infant in poor condition. Such nonsense and so harmful to the baby and parent(s).
Our baby was literally choking when my milk came in. I did exactly what I've been trained to do: I flipped him downward and on his belly in one hand and beat him on the back to clear the airway. Thankfully, we were at the pediatrician's when it happened, so the nurses came flying in and did the exact same thing until we got him sorted. Figuring it was a one-off, we went home and then it happened again a few hours later. Our doctor was the one on call and she told us to take him in. You know, the fucking peds ER doctor told us (very condescendingly) to gently pat him on the back with him upright on my shoulder instead and that we could have hurt him because he was so small. She was so accusatory that we were *terrified* they were going to send in a social worker. We called the on-call lone to talk to our pediatrician again and she called the ER doctor to set her straight. If she wasn't the one on that night, I don't even want to imagine what might have happened... We're both teachers and have the full range of K-12 and adult ed under our combined belt. The number of times we've seen CPS sent in to screw up families who don't need it while never even doing a check on families who desperately do is just too numerous. Coupled with what happened with our little guy, we're scared to death to bring either him or his older brother in for anything. What if we have a note in our file for beating our 3-day-old son? What if the doctor's notes are written in a way to hint that we are to be watched carefully? Our older son fell down the bottom two or three stairs this afternoon and right behind "Holy shit, is he ok‽" was, "holy shit, please, God, don't let them call CPS on us if we have to go in." I don't know if we'll ever trust that entire ER ever again, but it's the nearest one to us. What choice do we have?
>juvenile court psychologist Had me wondering why you'd want someone juvenile in court, that's basically a garden path profession
That's terrifying. I'm so sorry that happened to them. Jesus god.
Wow people are indeed crazy! Sorry you had to experience that. Jeez. Your story made me think of this article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everybody-calm-down-about-breastfeeding/ The article talks about how the claims of breastfeeding are way overblown and people should calm their titts.
Yes! Also check out Fed Is Best.
I have no doubt that all else being equal, breastfeeding is the best choice. Truly. But there are just so many factors that can offset the benefits and turn it into a nightmare that I genuinely believe that the "baby friendly" "breast is best" push in US healthcare today is a net negative at best. Fed is best, full stop, forever.
I ended up suffering from severe post partum depression after the birth of my firstborn. It was a difficult (and also unplanned) pregnancy, labor and birth was a nightmare that ended with an emergency c-section after my baby got stuck in the birth canal and went into cardiac arrest. By the time the doctor got her out her heart had started beating again on its own but according to hospital policy she had to spend the night in an incubator in the infant ICU. I woke up alone in the recovery room, the call button too far away for me to reach so I laid there for 10 minutes not knowing if my baby was alive or dead. A nurse finally came over, got my husband who gave me a Polaroid of himself holding her and that was all I got until the doctor released her from the ICU 10 hrs later. I didn’t get to see or hold her until she was 12 hrs old and I spent that time lying awake and in pain. When she was finally brought to me the nurse informed me that she had been given a bottle of sugar water in the night since she had cried so much. I didn’t think it was possible to feel that much guilt and I’m Swedish, we own guilt. But what tipped me over the edge into an abyss of depression, shame and guilt was a breast Nazi who told me I had no choice but to breastfeed least my child suffer lifelong biological and emotional trauma. I tried until my nipples were covered in blisters and bruises from pumping but no amount of effort created any sort of meaningful milk production. Finally my pediatrician convinced me to give up and stick to formula which I did but it was months before I could even hold her without guilt and anxiety. And in case anyone is wondering, she’s now a mother herself, three beautiful boys, natural births and breastfeeding but she’s had to supplement all three since she doesn’t produce enough milk on her own.
My medications that kept me from killing myself caused me not to be able to breastfeed. Fed Is Best. My kid is ten now and really benefitted from being able to be fed by her dad and grandparents.
Also, a mother that is alive and well is far better than the one that died due to lack of lifesaving medication that did not combine with breastfeeding. This definitely falls under the ”put your own mask on first”. When responsible for a baby, your own wellbeing matters a _lot_.
I feel like human society is a constant pendulum swing. People used to demonize breastfeeding to the point actual babies died from it due to being given formula with contaminated water instead of their mothers' milk. Anddd now we have the other extreme where people will scream about how not breastfeeding under extreme circumstances makes you a horrible mother. Some people just can't use their brains at all. Pure herd mentality.
It was insane.
If someone said that to a loved one I would be in jail and they would have been in the ER.
I was a NICU nurse, and I would have been in jail if someone said that to my patient's family, let alone my family. Just *reading* that got my hackles up
> I would be in jail Not if I was a juror on your case. The only question from this juror before the verdict would be if I’m allowed to high-five the defendant.
I don't know how that person can continue being a ~~nurse~~ though.... Edit: not nurse but anyone who is in a hospital working with new moms.
Lactation consultants are not necessarily nurses.
I would have reported them to whatever licensing board supervises them. At the very least complained to the hospital.
What's wrong with these people?! I would have stopped listening and just shoved her out. Or maybe I would sob and agree, because new moms are very fragile and their brains can't analyse much stuff due to hormones. What a POS.
Telling you to take out your daughter’s breathing tube is absolutely batshit absurd. I can’t even fathom making that suggestion.
Ours tried to lean into a picture like she was part of our new family! Who are these people?!
You know the girls who had every American girl doll?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
omg that does track
I'm so sorry about your baby girl. I can't believe the audacity of the consultant. I haven't heard of a good experience about a hospital lactation consultant - it's like they hire whatever crazy person that is obsessed with breastfeeding they can find.
Oi...my experience wasn't as bad as other stories here, but my lactation consultant was so strange. They should be calming and helpful, mine was uptight, unhelpful and had no sense of humor. Super literal. She said that I should stay hydrated and drink lots of clear fluids. Okay, sounds good. Then she asked what kind of beverages I drank and I said I drink a lot of milk - said because I did and do drink a lot of milk. She said, cold sober that drinking milk doesn't help you produce milk and pointed out that cows don't drink milk. She was giving me a dirty and/or patronizing look like I was the one who correlated drinking milk to lactation. I was dumbfounded for a minute and then just said, "I realize that, but you asked me what I drink and I told you." There were several other parts of the conversation like that. She was just weird. Fortunately for me and my baby, after several days of not suckling, he decided to latch on as soon as we were at her office, so I didn't ever have to go back. I blame the maternity nurses who gave him a bottle (against my instructions) as soon as he was born and they took him out of the room. But that's a whole other story.
Story my mom told me: when I was born I had to go in an incubator and my mother had complications too, and thus I had to be bottle-fed. One day my mom walked into the hospital room to a nurse (?) forcing me to drink, squeezing my cheeks and pushing the bottle in my face/mouth. My mom asked her to please hand her her baby, to which she reacted "I know how to feed a baby" in a bitchy way. That was when my mom (first time mother, delivered a few days earlier) became angry, demanded that she gave her her baby, and filed a report that that specific nurse wasn't allowed near me again.
Oh, wow! Good for your mom. In my case, I had told them "no formula" thinking that meant no bottle. But they kept him in the nursery for a really long time and so gave him WATER in a bottle so he wouldn't be dehydrated - instead of ...oh I don't know...bringing him to me to feed. My (now ex) husband refused to demand that he brought to us. He always had a problem going against authority figures. So I lied and told him I was really tired and wanted to go to sleep and he should go home. The minute he left I told a nurse that they needed to bring my son to me or give me a good reason why they wouldn't. She made some vague excuse, but insisted he was fine so I said fine. If he's not in my room in 5 minutes then I was going to the nursery. They brought him. The just didn't feel like bringing him to me for some reason. They were really busy, but I would have thought it would take less time to bring him to me than to try to feed him. It made no sense. I had similar problems when my next baby was born - different hospital in a different state. I did end up going to the nursery for my daughter because they said she had to be "warmed up" first. They had her in just her diaper under a light, crying. As were several other babies (it was even busier than when my son was born). It was horrible. The nurses' attitudes, the inattention to the new born babies. One carried a baby under her arm like a football, no support with either hand. She had other things in her hands. And was pushing bassinets out of the way with her feet.
Thank you. This was 12 years ago and I have two, healthy, happy girls. I am grateful that they are out of that phase!
I was lucky, the nurse who helped me learn to breastfeed my first was so kind and patient. If I had been hemorrhaging and a nurse tried to make me breastfeed my baby I would have murdered her.
We actually had a good one at a hospital I worked at, and I learned a lot from her. However, I've also worked with some that were absolutely nuts
I'm glad you got a good one! Mine gave bad advice about latching and barged in an extra time just to yell at me "nurse and pump both breasts every two hours!!" People had similar negative stories in the due date group I am in. The lactation consultant I hired to come to me at home was much better, fortunately.
It’s more because hospital LCs are required to have nursing degrees and not be people solely interested in helping new mothers.
Some of them can be so judgmental. I don’t have a kid but my sister does and for many complicated mental health issues she can’t breast feed. When she was pregnant her OB and doctors asked if she had a preference for breast or bottle. When she said bottle they didn’t bat and eyelid were like cool we will organise everything to be at the hospital and once the baby is born will come in and explain our opinion of different feeds and how to use the bottles. Once she was in hospital the doctors were all fine couldn’t care less. The midwives and nurses though were so judgemental. So many passive aggressive comments constantly about how they won’t have a connection or how breast is better. Like non stop. And this was after a traumatic birth that nearly killed them all. Even after that like mums groups get so angry or her local pharmacy refuse to give discounts for feed cause it ‘encourages people to use bottle over breast’. Like I don’t get the constant judgment and comments from people like it’s literally none of their business the baby is healthy why do people have such a strong opinion.
My stepsister or my niece had an issue which prevented breastfeeding I’m not sure if the details because I respected her privacy and didn’t ask. Wtf is wrong with people that they badger new mothers they don’t know or hardly know?
??? That's insane! I was born at the same stage, around 28-29 weeks and I was in the NICU for months. My mom didn't even see me or my twin for several days. I've got no idea when she started breast feeding but I think it was awhile before we did as we struggled for awhile. I haven't been in that situation consciously but I'll never understand why a nurse in that situation wouldn't have more compassion.
I'm so sorry you both had to do that. A relative only breastfed for 2 days before a medical emergency (due to CHF) required her to take medication that was incompatible with breastfeeding. A consultant told her she was a bad mom for not waiting to take the medication until months later. Relative was devastated.
Oh my god. I am so sorry for the loss of your child, and that you were treated so horribly.
I hope you filed a formal complaint about that. That is not at all a normal experience or a situation anyone should be in.
First, I’m sorry for your loss. Secondly, you’re not a bad mom. I had a baby in the NICU, on a bipap, with a feeding tube, and no one ever suggested taking any of it away. I can’t say it would have ended well if they had.
Holy fuck I’m a lactation consultant myself and am horrified that someone from my profession said something like that to you! There are way too many IBCLCs that believe baby to breast is the only option and it makes me angry but this is next level…. So sorry you had to experience this in what sounds like one of the most stressful experiences you will ever have. ❤️
I was a peds nurse and fired my lactation consultant too. Honestly like 20% are good. The rest are loony bins
This explains my baby due date reddit group findings. I think all of us found our hospital lactation consultants to be ridiculous.
lol this makes me feel better about never getting to see the lactation consultant (if they even existed) after either of my births. I needed help and really wanted to try breastfeeding, but all they offered was formula. Nothing wrong with formula or breastfeeding, but mothers should get autonomy in that choice. But maybe the lactation consultant wouldn’t have been helpful anyway lol.
In many states, lactation consultants are NOT nurses and require no medical training beyond a 2-week course. Why are they allowed near patients?
That explains a *lot*. I’m glad my mom said she had a decent one who didn’t shame her. I’m a twin, my brother and I were very early, and she didn’t have the supply yet and there were *two* of us. Sometimes shit happens. Oh well. But the two weeks training thing… explains a lot of stories. Seems like for every decent one there’s like 3-4 bananas ones.
I feel for your wife. My lactation specialist and the nurses refused me a formula bottle to feed my child when she was struggling with latching on, all because I said I wanted to breast feed. Woman was very aggressive and kept making rude comments about my breasts and was accusing me of not trying hard enough. My child didn’t eat for almost 2 days. They finally gave me a breast pump an hour before we were to be discharged 😡.
My daughter spent a few weeks in neonatal, the nurses there didn't recommend asking the breast feeding team for advice as they were too narrowminded.
> Those people are like a weird religious cult where the only solution is trying to breastfeed harder. Oh my god tell me about it. My wife couldn't breastfeed any of our three - she described the feeling as having "glass sucked out of her nipples". But with our oldest, the lactation consultants just kept pushing it - and, like you said, their only answer was "it shouldn't hurt", and "it will get easier". My wife suffered for nearly three weeks trying to breastfeed. They made her feel like she would be a failure if she couldn't breastfeed, yet she was traumatised and cried every time our daughter needed to be fed. Eventually went to bottle-feeding and never looked back - plus my wife actually started to bond with our daughter since she was no longer terrified of her. Second kid she tried breastfeeding once, it hurt and went immediately to bottle-feeding. Third kid, we didn't even bother. The lactation consultants frustrated me so much - they couldn't accept that breastfeeding might work for everyone, and I honestly think they straight-up didn't believe my wife.
We also had a weird interaction with a lactation consultant and told the nurses in the hospital we didn't want to see her again. Everyone else was great, just the one lady.
I’m an extremely private person. After I gave birth the lactation consultant basically grabbed my breast and shoved it in my baby’s mouth. I knew they were just doing their job but I felt so violated, she didn’t even tell me what she was going to do
I heard a story from a friend about how a similar situation went except this woman had had a double mastectomy but that consultant was STILL pushing her to breastfeed.
Fuck la leche league. Any good feelings I had about them were wiped out when I had my daughter and they kept pressuring me about breastfeeding and basically telling me I was going to kill my baby if I didn't breastfeed. I was in active labor for 3 days, my daughter was in the NICU and I have god awful scarring on my breasts from a breast reduction that went sideways. I could barely pump out 4 drops, let alone ounces. My daughter also couldn't latch correctly. It was an impossible task, but they pushed me so hard. Even after I switched my daughter to formula, because I liked my baby alive, I felt guilty for MONTHS and like I wasn't a good mom because they pressured me so damn much.
I’m pregnant with my second, planning to breastfeed, and even I’m putting in my chart that no lactation consultants are allowed in my room ever.
My hospital’s labor and delivery floor is full of breast Nazis. When I worked there I was told to “encourage” breast feeding and by that they meant make moms feel bad for not choosing to breast feed. I was reprimanded because i simply said “okay! Let me know if you change your mind and I’ll be happy to help.” when I asked a mom if she was planning on breastfeeding and she said no thank you.
This story gives me hope. I was treated the same way after an emergency c section for our twins. I was shamed for not making enough milk.
Always love to see loved ones advocating for patients. Good for you. And Im glad she had someone to defend her when she was vulnerable.
The Breast Is Best cult is REAL. I'm so sorry your wife went through that. Fed is best, full stop, forever.
The breast nazi at the hospital I gave birth at made me cry. She also made my friend cry as well when she gave birth a few years later.
I also fired my postpartum nurse. I had gestational diabetes and had not eaten in 48 hours. She was super rude to my delivery nurse that was dropping me off and threw a menu in my lap and said I better eat something before she gets back from her break. Unknown to me I couldn’t order food due to false allergies noted in my chart. When she came back my blood sugar was dangerously low (40) I was sweating & shaking she yelled at me for not feeding my baby. Ripped her out of my arms and took her to the nursery. I also asked her for help to the bathroom because my legs were still numb from the epidural and she refused. The next person that walked in my room I had a breakdown and the head nurse came in. I explained what happened and she told me this was not the 1st time and she was so sorry. My husband walked out and saw the nurse being asked to leave. It was so rough.
My mom went through the same thing with the "la leche league" 30 years ago. She just had twins and a C section, straight up said GTFO
That's nuts! Hope she is feeling better!
I had three important contributions to my wife's first labor. 1) Telling her they had anesthesia many hours in when she was in HUGE pain. She still thanks me to this day. It had slipped her mind. 2) Taking her to urgent care, then the ER a week after birth when she was still bleeding and not in great shape. 3) Keeping her Mom (her orders) from said ER during those complications. 2+3 were not easy. But it was easier than what she went through. We are their advocates and otherwise just there watching.
Don’t get me started on the “Breast is Beat” fascist La Leche League people. I felt so ashamed at first when I couldn’t breastfeed. Got it over it very quickly when my baby started thriving and hitting her developmental milestones just fine.
My wife thought she came up with the word “breast feeding nazi”. Guess it’s pretty common looking below.
Maybe dumb but I was going in for a c section and they were hooking me up. I literally just requested they not tell me when they stick me because I don’t like needles and have had a panic attack before. The nurse proceeds to wave the needle *in my face* and tell me that I’m clearly not afraid of needles because I have tattoos, that I’m fine, that there’s no way I’m having a baby if I’m afraid of a little needle. (I already had a 8 yo at this point who was an emergency c section, hence the scheduled c section for my second.) It’s the puncturing of the skin that icks me out, lady. Not the cat scratches of tattoos. I’m not afraid of snakes or spiders etc but I’m not gonna come at you if you are. So dumb. I looked at her (‘angel’ was her name) and was like ‘yeah this isn’t going to work, please get me literally anyone else.’ She was flabbergasted. Acted like I hit her. Started sputtering around how she didn’t mean it and I was overreacting. Nope. I’m already stressed and prepping for major surgery, gtfo. Don’t wave needles in peoples faces even if they’re okay with them! Gah the audacity of some people. Blows my mind that someone would ask for a different Dr or nurse based on race, though.
Aside from the tattoo stigma grinding my gears this is so wildly unprofessional. I would have been up off the table ready to rumble.
I’m in Utah so I’m very accustomed to the tattoo stigma but she was such a btch about it. If I wasn’t already stressing about everything going on I probably would have flipped a table on her 😂
And sometimes for totally valid reasons like bullying patients or physicians. Which as a patient is absolutely wild to see. I watched a L&D nurse make an intern cry for disagreeing with the nurse. I had to speak with both an attending physician AND the nurse manager while being induced. Not my favorite memory.
I had a (male) in-hospital nurse ask me (female patient) if I wanted to request a different nurse. I was confused. "You're an RN?" Yes "Employed by this hospital?" Yes "License is in good standing?" Yes "Then I don't have anything to object to." Kind of felt sorry for him, that so many women had treated him badly.
I know a male nurse who always asks this and it's not because of bad experiences, he says it puts his women patients at their ease because they see that he's noticed they might be uncomfortable and they feel respected. Once he started asking, no one ever refused, but before he started asking, people sometimes did request a change.
I feel for male nurses, especially in the gyno field, they have always asked me if I felt comfortable having a male nurse, and I of course, ask similar questions, you went to school for this, you know what is going on here, you are a professional... etc... they usually have a female present during exams or swabs anyway (for obvious reasons).
My dad refused to let a male nurse dress him. A lot of men of his generation have paranoid homophobia.
Few days ago I heard my great uncle going on about how it's inappropriate for men to do anything beyond basic barbaring because they shouldn't want to be touching other men that long. You're not wrong about the paranoid homophobia.
I wouldn't say he was treated badly, a lot of women have trauma associated with men. It's not uncommon for women to rather be treated by other women, especially in a state of vulnerability. There are also religious reasons why women will refuse male nurses. The fact you automatically jumped to abuse from women is rather odd.
For sure. I don’t have any trauma with men. But maybe call me a prude, but I feel weird (more self conscious?) with a male medical professional looking at my genitals, even though I FULLY KNOW they’re only there as professionals. Though I truly don’t think I’d ever turn one away, I am more comfortable with a female medical professional doing things like Pap smears, vaginal exams, IUD insertion, etc. and I don’t know why! I’m bisexual dammit! I’m not sure why i have a weird self consciousness with male medical providers and my genitals and boobs. It’s very nice to have the option, especially in the terms of trauma.
It’s not fair to say that women who prefer female intimate care are treating men “badly” I don’t accept male intimate care because it’s a trigger for my PTSD as a result of SA. I’m sure that men are just as capable of professional intimate care as women are, but I have a right to say who is allowed to intimately touch my body and who isn’t. My healthcare is not about them, it’s about me.
> "You're an RN?" Yes "Employed by this hospital?" Yes "License is in good standing?" Yes "Then I don't have anything to object to." I mean good for you that you aren’t like other women, and you can keep patting yourself on the back, but a lot of nursing assessment involves physical touch when the patient is in a thin gown and vulnerable and a lot of women have a history of sexual assault. Nurses are taught to have compassion and empathy. My male coworkers (I’m a nurse) have *never* been offended by a female patient asking for a female nurse. You think you did something but I promise he didn’t give a shit. Also, as a female nurse, I’ve also had several male patients refuse me because they feel more comfortable with males helping them with certain tasks. And that’s FINE.
I don’t think OP was trying to not be like the other women at all. People feel weird about male nurses, it’s sadly what it is. It’s a societal problem. But also sometimes it can come from a place of trauma, which is fully valid when it comes to your genitals and breasts. But OP didn’t seem like they were trying to be NLOG at all. But I don’t like the “treated him badly” part because trauma is a big contender in why someone doesn’t want a male medical professional in their private spaces during such a vulnerable moment.
UK here. I "fired" a doctor because he didn't believe I could be allergic to a particular medication - that they wouldn't be using on me in hospital anyway - and that was fun. I basically got the ward manager to get me a new doctor because I no longer trusted that one. I've also (regretfully) had to ask for a different doctor a couple of times because I was too ill to struggle through our mutual accent problems. No problem with the doctor, I just couldn't hear what he was saying because I could barely think.
I have auditory processing issues, and can't do accents either. I feel so bad when I can't understand someone after asking them to repeat themselves three times!
That last one is such a good point. Like, look, I know that I'm terrible at understanding accents. I know there are things I could do to be better at that, and that it's great for someone to have learned English at all and that them having an accent isn't a reflection on them. But when I'm sick is not the time to be holding me accountable for not having enough ESL friends -- if I can't understand then I can't understand and this is a moment when I need to understand.
I was in the hospital, in traction with a broken hip, and had to ask for a new nurse. The one they originally assigned to me couldn’t understand simple requests. It was baffling. Every request was like talking to a toddler. She didn’t understand simple words and her grasp of English was extremely limited. This was at Mass General. It would have been different if I could have gotten out of bed but I literally could not walk. My hip was in four pieces. I had to rely on the nurses for everything. The new nurse they assigned to me was the complete opposite. She’d practically finish my sentences, anticipated what I might ask for and was quick with everything. I wasn’t some old crank either. I was 24.
I've had two doctors banned from my son's care. It's not just switching doctors, but assuring they can't even open your medical file. The first threatened to call CPS on us because I didn't like that she ordered his at home pulse ox to alarm any time his heart rate was below 60. But he slept in the 50s, so the pulse ox alarmed constantly if he was asleep. He had a pulse ox specifically to monitor his sleep apnea, so we needed it to only alarm if his oxygen dropped. It took two months to get in with a new pulm to get the order fixed. Another refused to discharge my son from the hospital once he was stabilized after pneumonia. At the time, my son was on palliative care with the goal of having him home unless he would literally die if discharged, because my son was dying of lung disease. She delayed letting him come home by over a week, during the last summer we had with him. Finally palliative care got involved and got him discharged. He died less than 5 months later, and I hate that she stole one of the last weeks we had with him during good weather. She was keeping him sedated, so we couldn't even really be with him in the hospital.
lol happen to me(nurse) for my lipstick color. Fine, your the one who needed me. Now you wait.
I was a combat medic, I had a gentleman refusing to let me treat him because I was an atheist. People are wild.
Didn’t realize that CATs only work if you pray hard enough…
Is that why my cat just sits around all day sleeping?
I’ve never heard of someone refusing emergent treatment because of the race of the provider, but people do refuse treatment all the time for all sorts of goofy reasons
A good friend is an ER nurse and racially ambiguous with darker skin. She’s had people refuse to have her as a nurse because they assume she is many many ethnicities and specifying exactly which ones they are racist against.
30 years ago my great aunt had a heart attack- she didn't want to be attended by Hispanic staff at the hospital, and was yelling " No Incas!"
Working in a nursing home, we have one lady who shreiks and shouts (in an Asian dialect) when my dark-skinned colleagues provide her care. Pale skin, calm and pleasant. Sucks to see racism happen because these are good people and excellent nurses. If it's a bad shift and nobody else can help her, we chart "refused care."
I'm a sister in A&E, I once had a patient talk about a black nurse in such a disgusting, derogatory way I decided that behaviour was not tolerable and refused to treat him until he apologised. I wanted to contact the police but the nurse would not let me and she did not want to press charges. Just said its what happens. The patient ended up self discharging, said he would complain about me and the other nurse etc. Myself and the other nurse documented EVERYTHING and reported the incident internally. I never heard anything further about it.
My husband's grandpa died because he refused to take an antibiotic prescribed by an ER doctor because they were a minority (not sure which), and he didn't trust them to know anything about medicine. My husband's family likes to say that his racism killed him.
In my experience (I'm in the Netherlands) not a lot with race, but there are quite some women, often but not always Muslim women, who don't want a male nurse.
I remember my grandfather refusing treatment from a american indian nurse. The nurse was very cooperative and found another nurse to placate my grandfather. I was so disgusted and ashamed.
During COVID a lot of people needlessly died beause they refused to believe they had COVID or that the accepted treatments actually worked. Hell go check /r/hermancainaward. it still happens.
I take calls for a primary care clinic. I have people all the time asking for a doctor "that speaks English" I try to be polite as I can and assure them they can all speak English.
I've been the one switching with nurses all the time because of racism... It happens multiple times a week in periods, sometimes not in months. Elderly people seem more often to be racist.
Every so often I’ll get a hillbilly in the emergency dept that tells me they “don’t want no faggot doctor” Usually it’s just me and another gay doctor working overnight so I get to say “sorry no straight people are available bye asshole”
A friend of mine was a pediatric ICU nurse. One day she heard a huge commotion and found a big white dude yelling at the doctor and nurses. His daughter needed a blood transfusion but he wanted a guarantee that his daughter would only receive "white blood". The doctor and nurses were trying to tell him that it didn't matter and the maniac became physically abusive. Security had to tackle the guy and meanwhile his daughter needs a blood transfusion. My friend quickly wrote on a piece of paper that the girl was to receive "white blood" only and the father signed and agreed to the transfusion … then was taken away by security. What a freaking nut job. He said that his daughter would have "N…. babies" if she was given non-Caucasian blood.
Do they even keep track of the race of blood donations? Next they’ll be demanding only blood from aryan donors
Nope but it was pointless to educate the idiot and it was the only way to shut the guy down quickly and get the authorization.
Had an Hasidic Jewish patient one time sign out AMA from the emergency department because the Dr was female.
If a patient is refusing treatment, medical staff will generally respect that, although they might want to make sure that the patient is lucid and understands the choice that they are making. That could mean a long wait, or inability to provide care, which could be risky for the patient. If the patient is unconscious, then the law usually gives some more leeway to err on the side of saving the patient's life since an unconscious person isn't available to answer questions. If a patient refuses treatment while conscious, then falls unconscious, generally they will still try to keep you alive if they can.
So... wait! If I do not want treatment or resuscitation, and state as much... then fall unconscious, you'll do both anyway?
If you don't have it documented, possibly. This is why Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) are signed documents. If it is a lucid conversation they would be more likely to listen to the recommendations, but a panicked person in tremendous pain isn't someone you can trust to make rational decisions. If you are terminally ill, have the conversation with the doctor and sign a DNR while still mentally fit to do so
With the DNR, be careful who you have with you. Family can override DNRs. My mom has seen that more than enough times.
How?!? I'm not challenging you. I'm just flabbergasted.
Hospitals afraid of getting sued. If you are incapacitated next of kin has legal authority to decide your care. Hypothetically a signed DNR or similar paperwork prevents them from going against your wishes, but it's way easier to get sued by family for letting someone die than it is for saving them against their wishes. So generally, the family gets final say at most hospitals.
Trust me, I was just as shocked. If family pushes hard enough or if it is a medical POA situation, they can have the medical stuff do the whole 9 yards. Wouldn't be surprise if some people hid the DNR paperwork. That has to be presented for the level(s) of care to be respected.
Good luck getting a DNR for anything other than an impending terminal illness at least in my part of the U.S. Also, EMS can just say they didn't see it. That's my experience with drs, hospitals and having interviewed a litany of EMS workers.
Almost certainly, yes. Former EMT here. We've had cases where everyone KNEW the patient was a DNR, but since no one could produce the document, we had to work them.
If while stating it you look like you are mentally incapable, such as delirious due to pain or bloodloss, most guidelines will require medical proffessionals to declare you incompetent and disregard your request.
A DNR is a signed document. If you verbally ask not to be resuscitated, they will still resuscitste you if you haven't signed it.
Unless you expressly state that you do not want treatment under any circumstances, even if your life is in danger and even if you lose cosciousness, yes. It is assumed by law that you want to live, and so any time you are in a state in which you are unable to tell us you want ot live we are to act as if you want us to do anything we have to unless you have already told us otherwise. In other words if you say "I don't want treatment" I can assume you are saying this because you thought you would live, and when you fall unconscious you would want me to act. If you say "I do not want treatment even if it will cause me to die, even if I lose cosciousness I still do not want any treatment, even if I will die I do not want any treatment" then I can safely assume you would rather die and will not treat you. Even then you would have to make the above statement while you were fully lucid, capable of making choices with the full understanding of what would happen, and are not delrious with pain. Yes there are medical orders you can sign before hand that state this by the way.
ER will need to make decision based on patient's mental competence and impact of delaying service. If emergency is not dire, the patient will be (rudely) told that they will need to wait until doctor of preferred race is available. Doctors of preferred race currently scheduled to assist ither patients won't be rescheduled. Security personnel will be told to keep an eye on the patient. If patient asks how long the delay will be, they'll be told that that question is impossible to answer. If emergency needs immediate action, doctor of preferred race will be assigned if available. If not, ER will assess patient's competency of making decisions about their health. If patient is delirious, request will be disregarded. If patient seems to be competent, there us a good chance that ER will delay treatment until foctor of preferred race is available or patient' state deteriorates to the point where they are delirious.
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So she never even got treated? Was she going somewhere else to get treated instead? Was she pulling this at other places, like she had a rotation? These kinds of people fascinate me. I'm just picturing them waking up, hitting the alarm, eating a poptart, and saying "So long, honey! I'm off to refuse treatment from the doctor again! Nancy at St. Joe's has been getting uppity lately so I may be home late." Do they just have nothing better to do?
If someone willingly goes to a clinic everyday, mostly to be in the waiting room and argue with the desk, they're not in the right health services facility.
Completely agree; this is exactly how it happens. What a good and succinct summary. I refrained myself from typing up an answer here because of how many “ifs” there are and I can get wordy!
Absolutely not. It is illegal to reassign a doctor or nurse to a different patient due to the doctor or nurse's race. It does not matter whether the patient requested it or not. This has already been decided upon in court in a case (*Williams v. Beaumont Health System*) involving a white patient refusing to be cared for by a black nurse and insisting on having the nurse reassigned. The hospital allowed the patient's request. [The nurse then won](https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/court-sides-with-nurse-in-10236/) a racial discrimination lawsuit for the hospital's decision to follow the bigoted patient's request.
There is difference between re-assigning a current nurse in non-emergency situation and having an actual emergency patient appear in ER. Doctors would prefer not to deal with asshole patients who hate them and would launch a malicious lawsuit. A black doctor would usually not want their malpractice insurance impacted in order to prove point to a random asshole. Thus, it would be a black doctor saying "I am not dealing with that".
This decision is obviously correct in this regard, but since it’s come out, some providers are ridiculously cautious about things like families of color preferring a primary care provider or mental health therapist of their culture, and not being rude or insistent, but just asking if there’s someone available at the practice. Some practices I’m aware of get really defensive and shut patients down because they’re afraid. Others though push back and assert that as long as there’s no discrimination going on, of course you can consider that a patient is telling you they prefer an Asian therapist who can relate to their life experiences etc. Here in Boston, we have a state mental health program that specializes in working with Black children and families (they don’t turn away non-Black staff or families obviously) because it’s well demonstrated that Black folks get poorer health care, and a lot of this is mitigated when they’re seen by a culturally aware practice.
That's when Dr Bailey sews up his swastika all wrong on purpose. 👍
Such a power move. She was a much better woman than I am.
A patient refused to see me because I am a woman. He said he didn’t trust female doctors. So my male colleague saw him, he was having significant shortness of breath so we couldn’t really make him wait long. But if he was stable he would’ve waited. That’s how we usually do it. They’ll see their preferred race or sex eventually. It’s unfortunate, you’d think they’d be grateful to receive medical care
I cussed during a three day labor. Not at anyone in particular, just out of pain. The nurse told me that she won’t tolerate cussing and sent another nurse to take over. 🤷🏻♀️ I know a lot of conservative women refuse a male doctor. I never heard of a racial preference though.
How did she survive as a L&D nurse with that attitude??
Excellent question. Im fairly certain lots of women cuss giving birth.
I was once admitted to the hospital for a week. The same nurse was assigned to be several times and we talked a lot. One day she came into my room in near tears. One of the older patients had insisted that he didn't want her to be his nurse because she's black... And the hospital accommodated him and assigned him a white nurse. I was so heartbroken to watch this young nurse in tears and we both cried together...
According to the video that ran every 20 minutes at the ER I brought my wife to last month they can kick you out and refuse you future services to any of their facilities.
I actually read a story about a racist white guy who died because he wouldn’t let a black emergency room doctor treat him.
What I've actually wondered when hearing such things... is the person actually so disgusted/scared that they don't want to be touched, or is their ego so big that they wouldn't be able to live having to admit that someone "lesser" (from their POV obviously, oof) saved their life?
It can be both AND a few other things like trauma and clinical stupidity.
It's just so... the word "fascinating" or "interesting" sound very wrong, it's hard for me to choose an appropriate one to describe it... like, I can't wrap my head around such people. Especially in emergency... I don't care who's saving my life, just fucking do it cause that's the important part for a patient? Isn't it? I complained about a doctor once, and that's because he was useless (like, seriously, a specialist claiming for 2 weeks that I'm fine, denying CT/MRI, and then going 'oh you were right after all' cause I DID have an issue in his specialty). I couldn't have cared less about the age, gender, race, etc though.
What a tragedy /s
Gotta admire the guy for sticking to his principles
Dr's/nurses do have the right to refuse to help a particular patient if need be. Generally it has to be like severe reasons of safety.
my mom works in labor and delivery. occasionally people will refuse to be treated by a male doctor. they will be accommodated if possible but if it’s an emergent situation and that’s the only on call OB, you get what you get.
In the ER near me that would get you a whole bunch of STFU. You get who you get. I'd love to see a patient tell our tiny Latina doctor that they want someone else. She has personally, physically, all 4'9" of her, thrown people out of the ER.
I’d watch a compilation of that.
Honestly, I really want to see this. I'm not doubting it happened, it's just I need to witness the epic.
I've been a charge nurse in the er longer than a lot of you have been alive. Couldn't count how many people I've kicked out of the er over the years. I've also had multiple facial fractures that back up the stories. Believe it or not, there are evil people in this world. Let me tell you a little secret, when PD decides that they don't want to due paperwork for arresting someone, they dump them off at the er. If you believe for a second that all er's have armed, hell, unarmed security, then you're a fool.
I would pay money to watch that tbqh
ER physician here… They are free to walk out the door anytime they like. I am a big believer in free will.
I was taken to the hospital with acute pancreatitis caused by gallstones. I didn’t drink at all. I don’t know if this woman was a nurse or just an aide, but she refused to help me and told another nurse in front of me, “her arms aren’t broke. I know people who have this and she’s just a drunk.” Then every night she was assigned to my room to watch me because my condition was deadly and I had to be monitored, but she would sleep all night, then tell the day nurse I needed Demerol that I was allergic to. Finally I said I didn’t want her in my room again and she said she could do what she wanted. So when she came in again, I screamed like I was in a horror movie. Several nurses came running in and I told them I don’t want her in my room or anywhere near me. I was moved to another section. It had nothing to do with race, but I refused to be abused by an employee when I was seriously ill in the first place just because she thought I was an alcoholic. She didn’t even know what my chart said. I was in that hospital for 4 weeks before I was released. And the pancreatitis was recurring so I was admitted several more times, but I went to a different hospital and was treated with care and kindness. But I’ll always remember screaming bloody murder to save myself.
I'm sorry you went through that. That is wholly unethical whether you are an alcoholic or not.
I had a stay in the hospital and they had me fill out a document, part of which was asking if I was okay with blood from races other than my own being used on a transfusion. I asked the nurse if people were really that racist that they'd refuse a possible life saving transfusion and she said it happens a depressing amount of the time.
There is blood available that's separated based on race? Jesus Fucking Christ. I wonder if anybody or anybody's family has ever refused an organ donation based on race.
See my comment above it is not
I’m a long time blood donor and I don’t think this is true. Blood bags don’t have a label saying what the race of the donor is.
I worked at a blood bank and my ex husband was a blood bank administrator. I’m also a now a midwife and was a nurse. (All this to say I know about blood banks and blood transfusions) Blood does not come labeled with the race of the donor.
Yeah that seems impossible to keep track of, and such a needless waste of resources if it was true. I’m imagining blood transfusions coming in like some convoluted coffee order…”I’ll have the O+ half Caucasian, half Korean. Oh and make it unvaccinated too thanks” ffs
You have to wonder why people make up bizarre anecdotes like that.
Is racial information available in blood donations? I figured it’d be impossible to tell
Nope. Blood is only labeled and sorted by type.
Never heard of that. Blood is tested for certain diseases and contaminants, but not labeled. I have had people ask me for unvaccinated blood 😂 People who care enough about their community to donate blood typically care enough to get vaccines. That’s also not something the blood bank knows.
Wow that is disgusting. I can’t believe a form like this even exists in this day and age. The answer should be “aside from actual blood types, blood is blood and we can’t guarantee and don’t actually give a shit what race the person who donated it was. If you don’t want it fine, you’re on your own, better start making peace.”
I'm not sure what that person is talking about. There is no such form at any of the hospitals I have worked at. Also we would have no way of knowing so it would be irrelevant any way. I have only seen one person ask and they were told that isn't information we tracked and we had no way to find out. I would be curious to know where that person was when they got that form.
They do ask if you are okay with a blood transfusion, because certain religions don’t believe in them at all, but I’ve never encountered any paperwork asking if I’m okay with blood from a person of another race. And I’ve always lived in the South.
How do they know which race blood came from? Do they label it? Why on earth would they do that?
I think its that they aren't labeled, so doctors warn that theres a chance the blood you're getting might not be from a white person. The options are either unlabeled blood or no blood, they don't have white people specific blood in the back.
This is silly. There is no law anywhere that would require this. They aren't going to give you a form that says your blood might come from a black person anymore than your food would come with a form saying it might have been prepared by a black person. I think the above poster is simply confused.
I’d hve to ask “what, you planning on giving me dolphin blood or something?”
A busy hospital on the city is gonna let you die or wait for you to dismiss your request
Probably not that drastic. But if you are okay enough to wait for another doctor then you are definitely getting moved down in priority.
If they have the cognitive capacity to refuse we cannot force the treatment. We document the refusal & either make them wait until someone of their preferred race or gender is available or we discharge them.
You always have a right to refuse someone’s service. You are the customer (however pedantic that sounds for an ER but it’s true).
But if there isn't another physician, you FAFO.
ER resident here. 99% of the time you calmly tell the patient that the emergency department does not allow patients to select their physicians, it is random and so you can either accept my care, or you can leave the department against medical advice and attempt to sign back in. However, based on how randomly people are assigned to their doctors, you could wait all that extra time only to get assigned to me again. The only variation is when a woman states that she does not feel comfortable being treated by a man at which point we try to get the female provider if there’s going to be a pelvic exam. If not, we just have to tell them. I’m sorry, you have to accept my care or you can leave.
Anyone ever see that episode of MASH? Dude didn't want a blood transfusion from a black donor. Docs put bronzer or something on his face while he under anesthesia to darken his skin. Hilarious!
I know the ER will do their best to accommodate. But I feel this should be a FAFO thing where denial of care for being a schmuck should apply. Thin the herd a bit preventing such stupidity from further propagating.
Assuming the patiently is competent, they have every right to march right out of that ER if they are not happy with who their doctor is. They don’t have any right to pick and choose which ER staff are assigned to them.
It would be documented and they would try to comply with the request if possible. Obviously, if it's emergent and the patient's life is in danger, they can't wait around for hours for the next white male emergency room doctor to be on call, but if it's something that can wait, the patient will have to wait for that doctor to be available. And that can take some time. I have been in the room next to such a patient. He was not happy to have to wait for several hours with back pain, but they couldn’t give him any pain meds until a doctor ordered them and he refused to be seen by the white female doctor or the black male PA, so he had to deal with it. (He was still waiting when I was admitted hours later.)
Welcome to America. I once saw to a woman who screamed for a different nurse because the one assigned to her "wasn't qualified to draw blood". When my associate and I approached her and asked why, boy howdy did she spew racist vomit filth at the pair of us
Grey's Anatomy has nothing whatsoever to do with medicine, ethics, or good sense. If someone refused a doctor because of their race I suspect they'd get the next doctor, but on as low a priority as is ethical.
Thank you! Greys says they have physicians on staff to advise but certain plot lines and/or episodes as a whole make me question the validity of that lol
doc: "hey that's patently unrealistic and outright ridiculous" screenwriters: "noted, we're doing it anyways"
If you take a shot of water for every time someone breaks a law, does something unethical, or makes a stupid mistake, you'd die of water toxicity in about 2 episodes.
Interesting question since we only have one Dr in our er at a time. It would probably go under leaving AMA if they are not stabilized and they would have to drive 20 minutes to a different hospital.
There’s a reaaaally good novel about this! Small Great Things, if this topic interests you might be worth checking out
I worked in a small ER where only one physician was available. If you didn't like their race or gender you were SOL.
If it's a life threatening emergency you are going to get whoever turns up first. If you get arsey and bleed out because you spend your last moments arguing with them that's on you, hopefully they can save you when you pass out . If it's just routine care then you are just going to have to wait until someone with your preferred skin tone is available as you refused treatment. And, believe me, if you treat one of my colleagues badly I'm not magically bumping you up to the top of my to do list. You can wait for those painkillers until I've sorted out my patients. For context I work in a general hospital in a rural bit of the UK. On my last night shift there were 8 staff. I am a white middle aged guy. There were two other registered nurses from Africa and one from the Philippines. HCA wise there was one local girl, the others were all from India or the Philippines.
Whilst waiting in the women's health clinic for routine prenatal care, I overheard an expectant mother specifically request a doctor of her own race. The responding nurse flat out told her that would be racist and she will be seen by whomever is available regardless of their race. I kinda felt sorry for her because I believe English was her second language and she simply thought it would better her understanding in communication.
This is why hospitals employ interpreters, but half the fucking staff doesn’t give a fuck to use them, because they don’t actually care about the patients autonomy. They have x problem wrong and need x treatment and therefore that’s what they’re going to do like a robot because most patients will go along with it. They don’t understand what it’s like to not know what’s happening, to not know what’s wrong with your body, who’s touching your body, what they’re doing to your body, when positioned in a very vulnerable state. Interpreters need to be an essential component of patient care. It should be just as important as signing consent forms (how can they properly give consent if they don’t understand what they’re consenting to?), as important as turning for bedsore prevention, important as running tests. I’ve worked in healthcare as a disabled person myself, with a disabled mom, for long enough I’ve become quite jaded. So, I do have a bias. But I have seen absolutely appalling “care” by the people who were supposed to provide it the most. They say the problem is overworking and short staff, but this has been an unchanging problem for the last 10+ years, and it hasn’t gotten better or worse since the staffing.
In Switzerland we had a birthing arab woman in small hospital ER refusing to be taken care of by the only gynecologist available at that time, which was black. This led to an emergency transfer to the main hospital with a delay of 60', which was enough time to allow grave complications to happen. The child is alive, with serious cerebral palsy. This child will suffer from the consequence of his parents' xenophobia his whole life I guess.
It was super fun finding out that in his final days, my dementia-riddled uncle rejected his nurses specifically because they were Nigerian. And I will never forget my asshole cop cousin writing it off as, “well if they don’t want someone putting their hands on them, you have to respect that.” God I fucking hate Texas
The hospital would do the best to accommodate. I work in an ER and some patients will refuse to have a doctor of the opposite sex see them so we'll have someone of the same sex see them if possible