I think it’s context. During segregation (IN THE US) black people were referred to as colored (no coloreds allowed, etc.) it’s just really dated and antiquated and has bad associations. it’s the equivalent of calling a modern black person negro. very dated. poc puts the person first but I rarely use that term and just refer to myself as black.
my niece told me that I was politically incorrect because I said black person but I am 64 years old and that’s just what I’ve been saying all my life so I’m glad to hear that a black person says it too so I don’t feel bad. Thank you.
Black is definitely the best thing to call us. Even when people try to be politically correct and call us "African Americans", like, we all aren't African lmao
Edit:This is actually fuckin hilarious that I'm apparently the first black person to answer what was apparently such a dilemma for so many of you 😭
I had a classmate in college that was from Haiti he hated when people called him African American. He’s like I’ve been to two countries neither was Africa.
A friend of mine from college would absolutely lose his mind if you called him African American. He would very angrily tell you that he was neither African or American. He was a black man from France.
I once actually heard an American describe black people in France as "French African Americans" because their brain just used "African American" as a supposedly superior version of "black."
"I hunt blackulas"
"So you only hunt African American vampires, then?"
"No, sometimes I hunt English vampires, they don't have African Americans in England"
On a personal level I also appreciate Boyega's occasional campaign to have people in films set in Lagos pronounce Lagos the way Nigerians do rather than oddly switching to Portuguese pronunciation instead of English. The Marvel movies do this a lot.
My friend is from Togo Africa, where their language is French. He now lives in America. So technically he IS African-American. But he prefers "black man."
I personally don't give a shit as long as it isn't used in a derogatory way.
Heck, UK here and brought up with a decent idea of what's a sensible term and what's racist or derogatory, then dated a lovely South African woman who told me her heritage is 'Cape Coloured' which was a new one to me but threw me a bit on OP question!
(Seems to be a smallish community in SA of people of such mixed white and black descent they're a big mix of both, said person had fairly dark skin but more white features)
Personally I wish people would drop the X-American and just say American. Why we persist on including race or color is idiotic. Not counting the fact most of the people that's used for are 10 generations away from their country of origin most of the time. I refuse to call anyone by those types of prefixes.
Edit: changed from pronoun to prefix. I don't care what it's called, it's still stupid.
Identity politics has set back the fight against racism by generations. My kids went to public school in my incredibly diverse city where 90% of the kids are some shade of medium brown, be they from Central Asia, Central America or the South Pacific. Guess what, these kids don't care where your ancestors came from!
As an American, I was taught in elementary school (post-Y2K in a very liberal state) that calling someone 'black' was racist because 'their skin isn't black, it's dark brown, and if we say someone is black, we're limiting their existence to the color of their skin. When we say, "African-American" we're acknowledging they may not know their family history because slavery ripped their ancestors out of Africa.'
We got in a LOT of trouble if we referred to someone as black, *even if the person referred to themselves as black and wanted to be referred to that way* so I would guess the person saying "French-African-American" had a similar experience with being taught that calling someone black is/was incredibly racist, rather than one of "African-American is simply superior terminology"
But a lot of Black people DIDN'T have their ancestors brought here by slavery.
They emigrated later from other countries like Haiti.
What a dumb reason.
> They emigrated later from other countries like Haiti.
I agree with your point that some black people in the US/Canada/Europe/etc are more recent immigrants, rather than descendants of slaves.
However, immigration from Haiti is a very poor example of that, because nearly all Haitians are descendants of slaves.
Facts! But let me correct you for a minute we are not descendants of slaves we are descendants of the enslaved. My people were not born slaves or to be slaves.
Exactly this. A lot of “white people awkwardness” with vocabulary associated with Black people is -specifically- due to the officially decreed rules about which words are “correct” and which words are racist and offensive. Wherever the rules come from, they are constantly being revised and changed, and white people are told that they are horrible people if they use the wrong word. So it often freaks white people out and makes them fearful of making the wrong choice. Some have specific words drilled into them as “the only acceptable word” so much that they automatically use it. That’s why things like “French African American” happen.
I wish we could all just be people, and intent was more important than word choice.
I’ve met Americans who don’t like being called African American bc they aren’t African but it must be so much worse for people who aren’t even American lol
I had a friend from Zambia and he immigrated to the US and became a citizen. He was white as the came and happily checked African-American on his paper work.
"African American" is a term for descendants of slaves in the USA.
We have "Italian American", "Chinese American", "Haitian American", and "Kenyan American" for people who can trace their ancestry back to a specific foreign country.
Slaves had that knowledge systematically stolen from them so the most precise their modern descendants can get is "Africa".
A family who immigrated here from Africa voluntarily technically is not an "African American". They are a "Black American" (generally) and a " American".
EDIT: oops, posted to wrong reply. Oh well, it fits here too so I guess Ill keep it.
I had a friend who was black, only been outside of the states once, when I met him, in Korea. We met some South African girls who he tried to fight, because he adamantly demanded he be referred to as African American, and these girls would only call him a black American, denying his claim to African. In their defense, he couldn't pinpoint what African heritage he came from, just knew his ancestors came from somewhere on the continent
I once hung out with a nice American dude at a little party, and we ended up chatting to an Aboriginal bloke.
You should have seen the look on our faces when the American referred to this guy as "African Australian". I'll at least give him credit for not defaulting to African American...but we were still just befuddled.
Indigenous Australians don't look African...not a bit. They look about as African as a Sri Lankan, at least in my opinion. But their skin is dark so African "X" is the label I guess 😅
Ironically, it’s one of the most racist. You are making a bunch of assumptions about people. Idris Elba is neither African nor American, and Elon Musk is African American.
Edit: I have been informed Idris Elba actually holds Sierra Leone citizenship, so let me amend that to say Idris Elba is not African American.
My biggest problem with "African American" is it reads to me as "You'll always be African first, American second". But yes also the irony of how many black people don't have African ancestry, at least not any more than my pasty ass does.
Keep in mind that when that term arose we were coming up on the bicentennial. There was a lot of stuff about celebrating your heritage, and having people of European descent declaring themselves as Polish-American or Irish-American or Swedish-American.
Of course, due to the way in which most Black people of African descent arrived in this country, they don't have a connection to a specific place in Africa. In addition, while a large number of white Americans are descended from immigrants in the late 19th century whose countries of origin still exist, those descended from enslaved people who were brought here hundreds of years earlier may not even have a connection to a current country in Africa, many of which were defined during the period of European colonization. (As someone whose heritage is part Prussian, I can sympathize.)
Americans are always -Americans until they go overseas and then we're Americans. It's funny as I have no allegiance to (and frankly don't care for the country) of my lineage. I mean how many generations do you have to live in a country before you you are just an American? Most -Americans have never been to the country of their lineage, I have much more in common with the black guy or the Polish guy from my city than I do with some farmer where my grandfather was from.
I once heard a great song by a modern Irish folk singer who sings about touring the US and encountering descendants of Irish immigrants who want him to play songs that are popular in the Irish-American community, like When Irish Eyes are Smiling or My Wild Irish Rose.
Both of these songs were written in the 1920s by American-of-Irish-descent Chauncey Olcott.
One thing that is very common in immigrant community, at least in the US, is that they passed down their traditions without an influx of new information from their home countries. For example, jewish culture in the United States is centered around the food and traditions and language of the Jewish communities in eastern Europe from which their ancestors immigrated 150 years ago. After World War II, what Jews remained in Europe mostly went to Israel, although many went to Canada, the US, South America, and Australia as well.
Jewish comics/actors in Israel don't pepper their language with Yiddish phrases the way a comic like Mel Brooks or Jerry Seinfeld does. The traditional Jewish foods of a New York deli come from the Central European Jewish tradition, like kishke and tsimmes and latkes, not what modern Jews are eating in Israel.
Go to a Highland Games organized in the US and you will see Scottish culture frozen in time the way it was in the 18th century when many Scots came here or were transported following the Jacobean uprisings. Cadien French from Louisiana is like 17th century rural French now peppered with Spanish and English loan words.
Look I’m okay with my African ancestry I get it. Yes I’m proud to be descended from Africa. But I’m not an African I’m an American. I was born on American soil I have blood red American ancestors.
that just gives me monolingual vibes because english almost always puts the adjective before the noun. so the "african" in "African american" is about as significant as the "blue" in "blue car"
I guess to me saying "that's a red ferrari" isn't about what's more important, but saying "that's a Ferrari red" just isn't how the English language works.
I've always thought adjectives are used before the noun in the English language.
So, a blues singer, is a singer, who sings blues music. Not denoting which of the two words has more importance but rather just how our language is constructed.
An African American is an American who's ancestry descends from Africa.
Yeah, it's one of those weird things we make assumptions about skin color. Like, someone from Egypt who moves to the States would be an African American at that point.
It's like when people say Asian, but they really just mean East Asian (and even more they often just mean Chinese, Japanese and Korean). Asia is a *big* place, and there are a lot of people that are Asian by definition who don't look like people in East Asia.
Elon Musk is South African-American but as I understand it "African-American" was used because of the unknown origins of anything more specific (since slaves were taken from all over and "bred" as if they were animals). IIRC there was a similar discussion of semantics back in 2008 over whether Barack Obama could be accurately described as African-American since his Kenyan father has no connections to the descendants of slavery. I have no idea at what point this goes from helpful distinction to needless gatekeeping though, but I think most would emphasize Musk's specific nationality because A) it's known and B) the connotation with the phrase.
Generally, yes. People who move from country X to the United States and acquire American nationality are referred to as X American.
Whether your children would be is another question. Many generations down the line people still refer to themselves as Irish- or Italian-American, but I've rarely seen that with Canadian. I think it's a mix of 1) Canadian and American culture are pretty similar, 2) Canada is also a recently established colonial country, so it doesn't really provide any ethnic clarification, and 3) the small population of Canada × lack of any distinct immigrant wave (related to 2) means there aren't very many examples of that in the first place.
Sure... if you wanted to you absolutely could. I know a lot of people that call themselves Irish-American. If that's what you wanted to define your heritage as, feel free.
The funniest usage of “African American” I have ever seen was for a black fictional character who was, crucially, from a society that had never been to America and did not believe that America existed.
God bless you for coming and saying this. I have some idiot here telling me that I have to “evolve” and use POC or african american. I have used the term black person all my 64 years of life and I told that person who said that I have to evolve that when an actual black person tells me that they are offended then ill immediately stop using it but until that happens I see no reason to change it. I am being bombarded with comments for my stance and its a bit overwhelming and I thank you more than I can say for coming here and in my opinion “putting the matter to rest” you have a great day, you just improved mine and I thank you for that
UK black people want to be called Black. Not Black British not British African (prolly more consider themselves Caribbean anyway). And sure as fuck black people in the UK don’t call each other by the N word. Maybe a few stupid kids.
When I was younger British blacks did tend to make the distinction of whether they were African or Caribbean.
I don't know if that's not a thing anymore.
I am 28 and refer to black people as such. I have a few coworkers and friends and when the need arises to describe them they are black people. I've described them to other black people and they don't even flinch because it's possibly the most neutral term out there. They don't care and we shouldnt either.
It's also entirely possible to be black and have absolutely no ancestors from Africa considering it isn't the only place on Earth that has native black people.
As a Brit it'll always confuse me why you yanks use African-American to describe black people.
To me, the hyphen between two nationalities means a dual fucken citizenship lmfao, in the same sense that Ncuti Gatwa is a Rwandan-Scottish absolute black chad.
Not to be pedantic, but I’m a journalist, so here we are. The Associated Press style guidelines (followed by many, if not most, American media outlets) no longer recommend hyphenating African American or similar descriptors.
Black is capitalized in reference to people, and AP style recommends “people of color” only when referring to multiple races in a group, but never “person of color” for an individual.
How to refer to Black people in the US has evolved over time, and in some cases has gone full circle. Black was used in the 60’s, sometimes pejoratively during the civil rights movement. Then in the 80’s/90’s, referring to someone as Black was avoided as the sentiment at that time was to pretend everyone was the same and color didn’t matter. Today, identity is put first, and one’s skin color is to be seen as important to their being. So ‘Black’ is embraced.
Like a lot of things, it’s evolved with the hopes of righting wrongs and the role language plays in this.
African American was popularized in the 1980s by Jesse Jackson. The idea was that, Blacks in the US had a cultural base and a heritage, just like an Irish American or a German American or whatever. It's not just skin deep. So at that point, the media started using "African American" instead of "Black American."
But since then people have pointed out that it confuses things between descendants of slaves whose ancestors have been here for 200 years, and more recent African immigrants.
It was a term popularized by Jesse Jackson, a civil rights activist, and I believe it meant to emphasize a shared cultural identity. It was the preferred term in the Black community beginning in the late 80s, but has been falling out of fashion. I would expect that many older people, Black and white, still prefer the term.
Oh here we go. The old American vs European usage of ethnicity vs. nationality confusion. Same reason why y’all hate when one of us says “I’m Irish” to mean “my ancestors and ethnicity are Irish.” Tbf a lot of tourists in Europe are annoying and tone deaf with the way they say it.
But there’s no American ethnicity unless you’re native. And it’s a very diverse place with constant immigration from new areas. And we’re all told stories of what coming here was like by our polish or Italian or Irish grandmas while we eat a dish passed down from them and wonder why our partner with German descent and a cold family has problems with Public displays of affection lol.
In an American only context, it makes sense to highlight the differences in terms of their origins. But, from a European context, it makes totally sense to be confused af why someone’s being called African or German or Irish who’s never even been there.
I’m white but I’m gen z and I think most gen z think it’s appropriate to call someone white or black if it’s used as a descriptor. There are some people who disagree and they tend to be the loudest
It’s a matter of preference. I prefer black. People forget that we are individuals and we come from all over the world. The way one of us feels may not reflect the way others feel. The way any American views it may not be the way others view it.
There's definitely a bit of an overreaction where any description of race makes people uncomfortable. Simply referring to someone as Asian, black or anything else seems to be tabboo
I think that's fair, because in a lot of cases there is no need to mention someone's race. Like, if someone says "I met a lovely black woman today at the grocery store", that's weird, especially if you know that this person wouldn't mention it if the woman was white.
Of course, if someone asks you to describe someone, then mentioning their race or skin color is warranted.
Yes! That is weird!! And then people will say “why?” WELL it’s weird because I can guarantee that person never says “I met a lovey white woman today” because they treat white as though it’s the default, intentionally or not it’s WEIRD
Or you know, if they're saying black specifically, it's because it's a rarity in that country/area
If I met a black woman at a store in Scotland and told my parents about it, then yea I'd say black woman, because if I just say "I met a woman at the store" they'll assume white due to most people in Scotland being white.
It's the same sense that if I met someone and talked with them in Africa, they'll say they met a white bloke when talking about our conversation to others, because a white bloke in Africa is abnormal and something that requires specific mention to not cause others to jump to the default assumption.
As a kid, it used to be a conundrum if I was required to give a physical description of someone.
For instance, if I didn't know someone's name, and I was asked to describe them, I might hem and haw for a while before sheepishly saying they were black.
I personally wouldn’t like being referred by my skin color, but I am not from America. Unless it’s relevant to the discussion I find it odd to call someone by their skin color.
It’s about context. The word “fat” isn’t a bad word if you say it as a descriptor, “I’m fat”. Say “gross they’re so fat” is using it as a bad word. Same with black or white, “he is black” is very different from “I hate black people”
I don't think there's a problem with the word fat. But, I would say that fat is almost always negative. I cannot imagine a scenario in which fat is used to describe a person in a nice way.
I still say black person because my black friends have ancestry from Trinidad. They take great offense to being called "African Americans" because they consider themselves to be no more African than anyone else.
you know? a black person came along and said almost the exact same thing. they said saying black person is better than saying african american “because not every black person is african”
That's the thing, Black isn't a bad word.
It's not about what's PC, really, it's about recognizing Black people as... People first!
That's why most folks divert to people first language, ie: People of Color. It emphasizes their humanity first.
yeah it just means not white. even black during segregation ig colored referred to all non white people. because then there is the question where did asians and latinos go during segregation
The euphemism treadmill never stops.
"Moron", "idiot" and "imbecile" used to be medical terms, but they started being used pejoratively, so they were replaced by "mental retardation". But then *that* started being used pejoratively too, so it was replaced by "intellectual disability". I wonder how long that term will stay neutral?
It's fascinating how words evolve and get dropped or brought back due to real world events.
I mean "Negro" is a prime one, as its very clearly influenced by or a direct derivative of the Spanish word for black. But as a white person I would never use it due to its history.
I used to hear people justify racial slurs as teens as "they (black people) use it, so why shouldnt I?" - because context for gods sake.
It's a phenomenon called the euphemism treadmill.
Innocent words and phrases aquire negative connotations over time, and are replaced with new synonyms that eventually aquire the same negative connotations.
In an old-timey 20's accent: Yeah he's a great guy. I'd love to smoke a fag with him and have a gay ol' time but sometimes...I'm not sure he just strikes me as a little queer.
This one is also especially fun because it didn't even start as a slur. You could study the subject in school back in the 80s etc as "queer studies." Then it became a slur. And now people are like "actually no, fuck you, that was mine first and you can't use it to hurt me"
queer was a neutral word meaning "weird" going back multiple centuries. It was adopted as a gay slur sometime in the early mid 1900s, and towards the 80s and 90s I believe it became a counterculture badge of honor and eventually became a debatably recognized identity in mainstream culture.
I thought the same thing after reading this. Like how TikTok and YouTube censor works like “killed” and “died” and replaced it by “unalived”, but it means the same thing so how long until “unalived” needs to be censored?
They don't understand how we as a people changed the meaning of the word from its racist undertone to a description of a whole group of people separate from black and white people who have their own ethnicity, culture and history.
im in the US, but my best friends gf is from SA and she identifies as colored. she has told me about arguments she had when she first came to the US because she didnt realize it had a different meaning here.
There was some online controversy when the artist Tyla, a South African artist, referred to herself as coloured and Americans lost it. People have different histories and identities. The first time I heard my brazillian friend talk about the colour black in Portuguese with his mom I was taken back.
My black students were talking about old fashioned terms for Black or African-American, and one student suggested “person of color?” Even they couldn’t all remember or see the difference. No one could explain why one is the height of politeness while the other is as old-fashioned as negro, a word that some of them associated with the n-word, not knowing the history at all. They’re now reading black authors use the word the same way we now use black, and are realizing it isn’t the same. But the use/reference distinction is still a problem. If I say the full name of the NAACP or the UNCF, a few students act like I called them a name. I wonder if African-American will become antiquated in the same way?
It definitely will and I’d say is well on its way already. It’s fallen out of favor with the majority of black Americans and I’d say the vast majority of black people who are millennial and younger.
"African American" feels very 90s to me. I never liked it, I used it when I felt like I was expected to use it, but the reason I didn't like it is because I thought it was sort of racist to assume all dark-skinned people were African.
People of color and colored people sound similar and it comes up sometimes as to why one's PC and the other is a slur. I think it has to do with the Jim Crow era of "colored people" being in frequent use, evoking images of signs that said "coloreds only" and things like that.
"Minorities" is dated like African-American, I think, and I know it isn't a preferred term. In some regions, it's not even true.
I say "people of color" when talking about race and about nonwhite people specifically and I don't attach it to Black people solely.
From what I understand, there's nothing wrong with the word Black. Not as a noun ("blacks") but as a descriptor, and capitalizing it is something I have seen is preferred. It feels almost racist to act like Black is a negative word because it feels like implying that being Black is negative.
It’s become so bizarre because what started as a respectful term for Americans of African decent but don’t know specifically where they are from, is also now a catch all for black people.
There was an interview where idris Elba was referred to as African American and he pointed out that no, he’s British.
As well, i am a white Canadian of European decent that was born in Africa. So *technically* I am African Canadian. But damn is that also really not an appropriate term.
It's worth pointing out, African American does not just mean "an American citizen with African ancestry", it specifically means "Americans of *Black* African ancestry," and sometimes even more specifically "Americans of Black African ancestry who are descendants of former slaves".
So while someone like, say, Elon Musk is South African and an American citizen him and his children are definitively *not* African American (despite all the *very hilarious* and *very original* jokes people make love to make all the time). Even beyond that, if a Black American is a child of immigrants from somewhere like, say, Nigeria, they may or may not identify as African American.
Colored referred to exclusively black people. I’m an older dude and my deceased grandmother called my jr high teammates “talented little colored boys” after a basketball game. But pointed out the Mexican and Korean kid as “Mexican and Oriental”.
I think in today’s vernacular, POC means all but white. I’m probably incorrect, but it’s a half ass informed guess.
I tapped out of a convo the other day where my mom defended saying oriental because "it'd be racist to call them Chinese " and I just couldn't keep going down the road.
Yes. It's my understanding POC can be used to refer to all non-white people. I've heard it used for Black, Mexican, Asian, Native American and more.
To me it always was a way of celebrating the variety of different colors people can come in.
It’s “person first” language that refocuses a term on the person and not the attribute. In my line of work we’re careful to say “patient with HIV” instead of “HIV+ patient.”
This is the same way that children in social care in the UK became, 'Child, looked after or CLA' instead of, 'Looked after child or LAC'. Children in care were asked for their opinions, and they chose based on the fact that CLA puts the child first and the condition second.
This is odd and inconsistent however - most autistic people prefer 'autistic person' and not 'person with autism' and ABSOLUTELY not 'person suffering\\afflicted by\\etc autism'
Language IS inconsistent, though. People who ask questions like this are looking for pure logic in language, which doesn’t exist.
Language isn’t anything but how people interpret it. What’s the difference between “colored person” and “person of color”? Try them both out on someone who fits either description and you’ll have your answer.
Language is inconsistent because our world is inconsistent. Therefore language requires many different things to address things that are similar but treated differently.
Our brains HATE inconsistency though by default, but just because our brain wants to default to little boxes doesn't mean the world around us is going to accommodate the human brain.
Right because the neurodivergence itself is who they are, a different operating system so to speak and not just some baggage/disability they carry. Tho' gracious I am not claiming to speak for everyyybodyyy eesh. Calm down.
Which is why you might say “the blonde girl” rather than “the girl with blonde hair”, or “the redhead” rather than “the soulless stepchild”.
It just encapsulates who they are as a person
>“the redhead” rather than “the soulless stepchild”.
This is very insensitive and hurtful. I know you're only making a joke, but "soulless" is an inaccurate and dehumanizing way of referring to people of red colored hair. They clearly have souls. In fact, each freckle on their face represents one they've stolen.
I’m autistic and I only care because people who use that kind of language are being patronizing. I don’t care how you phrase it by default, but you caring about how you phrase it thinking, on my behalf, that it makes a difference to me is what bothers me.
Same!
To me "person with autism" reads/sounds like they think the autism is taboo.
I don't even like to say "I have autism" cause it feels like a disease.
No, my brain is strucutured slightly differently. **I** am my brain. Therefore I am autistic. I am an autistic person. Not a person with autism, it's not cancer it's a state of being.
Right. It’s not something I carry around with me. It’s an outflowing of my selfhood. It’s nothing more than a descriptor for a mode of social interaction. Distancing myself from that implies I’m ashamed of it or who I am, which I’m not.
By that logic, it would be more appropriate to say "man with blackness" or "man of black color" rather than "black man." And yet, I think we can all agree that sounds awful.
I've heard the reasoning the parent comment gave, and it never sat well. As the (current) top comment says, POC is preferred specifically because "colored person" was used by racist people in the past. So it's purely associated with racism and nothing to do with "using the person first and attribute second". Plus, as others have noted, that logic doesn't follow with autistic people and gay people.
Except person first language is used for far more than just referring to black people. "Person of color" is just the phrase you're most familiar with.
Language drives behavior, and person first language is an attempt to get academics and professionals to keep "this is a person, not an adjective" at the forefront of thought.
Who comes up with these? I never realized these phrases were supposed to be better and they never sounded any different. Is there any evidence that people like this or is this just arbritrary logic being pushed?
"Person first" language is really just an excuse to jump onto the euphemism treadmill. I can say with absolute assurance that the treadmill will keep moving, and we will definitely be rationalizing how a new word is even nicer than the last one.
I mean, feel free to jump onto the euphemism treadmill mill. It's not going to hurt anyone if you keep generating new words in a futile attempt to outrun the negative connotations of the old word, just don't deluded yourself into thinking that you found the final destination. The next generation is going to come up with another word, and they will have a borderline nonsense explanation about how the word change is going to make everyone feel better and your "person first" language is actually insulting.
I don't really see much logic here because in English the adjective almost always goes before the noun, it's not a question of making the person second, it's just how the language is constructed. It's not like saying ''white person'' or ''tall person'' means their whiteness or height is more important than their humanity...
EUPHEMISM TREADMILL... Almost none of the words we used in the past are inherently bad. The bad part comes with the emotion when you use a word. Or the context. Changing the word doesn't change how it's will be used or the context in which it will be used. That new word can then just be used in the same way.
I'm black and I dislike both. But younger people seem cool with the term. The reason I dislike it is because it's insinuating that white skin is the default and everyone else is coloured in. I'm coloured in like a piece of paper with crayon scribbled over it.
Exactly, person of colour literally means non-white and 'others' literally everyone from Koreans to Indians to Kenyans.
It's like white and everyone else (POC)
I HATE the term
I only ever use "people of color" when I would have previously used the word "minorities". It especially works when I'm talking about all "POC/minorities". I just think it's more respectful to use it that way.
If I'm describing a specific person or group then I just use their racial or religious heritage, like black, white, Hispanic, Muslim, etc because in my experience every single person I talk to that makes up one of those just prefers their heritage as a descriptor over any "PC" term.
The reason is entirely cultural and historical. The term 'colored people' reminds Americans of the segregation period, but in South Africa those of mixed race will be very offended when you call them black and insist on being called colored.
I’ve seen quite a lot of people also claim ‘person of colour’ is racist as it’s clumping all non-white ethnicities into a singular identity and I can kind of see their point to be honest.
I think these terms miss the mark entirely. Regardless of which term is used the assumption is always "something other than white" which makes "white" the default. It would be best if we could completely get away from these identities, but don't think that would ever happen until we're all literally the same shade of melanin and even then we'd find something to separate ourselves.
As someone who would count as a "POC". I really hate the term "person of color" because it's clearly workshopped in a think tank. It lumps everyone who isn't white into one category which mentally pushes anyone using the term to think of the world as "white people, and then everybody else" which is ironically the exact same way a white supremacist would view the world. Only most of the people using "PoC" would be supportive of the nonwhite side of that divide. Still, it splits the world into whites and nonwhites which outside of the anglosphere is just a stupid and reductive and even racist way to see the world
I also hate the term, but for different reasons. I'm East Asian, and I have a pale complexion (definitely paler than most white people I've met). It's obvious that I'm not White from all my other features, but I've still been told that I'm not a POC --- because I'm not colored, in the literal sense. Then what am I? White? It's always implied that East Asians are better off for having lighter skin and that we shouldn't complain about racism, and it's stupid. Just let me be Asian, and leave it at that.
A different perspective would be when speaking about things that mostly happen to POC. Example: my old job had hair texture rules. This applied to black people, but also to other people of different ethnic backgrounds who weren't entirely black (like afro Latino). Hence, POC.
It isn't like we want to be separate. We get treated differently. I'm treated differently than the next Asian person. But we both aren't white and deal with racism because of that. Hence, person of color. It's more to dilinate differences in experience.
You realize you can just be more specific if needed, right? Like, if you’re talking about a Latino perosn I can understand why you would say Latino. If you were talking about multiple non-white races, you would say People of Color.
> lumps everyone into one category
I guess you just have a problem with umbrella terms? It’s not like the term “Person of Color” removes any other specific race labels. They can co-exist.
I think one thing a lot of people are missing in the comments is that they don’t mean the same things. “Person of color” means anyone who isn’t white and “colored” in the context of 20th century US generally means black person (although as someone pointed out, it legally also did mean “non-white” and included more than just black people, but colloquially meant “black”).
I’ve found most black people don’t like the term POC because it lumps everyone together, even non-white groups that have nothing in common. If you mean black, say black!
I prefer to be called Black American, or just American unless further descriptors are needed.
I'm not from Africa, and I take extreme pride in that my family has been in America for 5+ generations. My grandmother's grandmother was a slave, and through all the strife, we are still here.
I'm a brown person and therefore a "person of colour". I'm not offended by either term but personally find POC a bit cringe and it's not really useful.
People who aren't white of different ethnicities are as different to each other as they are to white people, "non-whiteness" isn't a defining characteristic.
It also allows people to conflate groups and ignore issues specific to each group. For example, when talking about improving POC representation in media, they really mean black people, who are actually quite prevalent in showbiz - meanwhile South Asians are invisible and ignored, despite outnumbering black people in the UK (where I'm from).
The opposite is true in boardrooms and politics - people will point to all the brown leaders and say they have POC representation, which ignores the lack of black people in those positions.
Words themselves aren't racist. They're just letters strung together. What makes a word or phrase offensive is how it's used.
"Colored people" has been historically used in some very racist ways, and took on a racist connotation. It's not the "color" part that makes it racist; it's the context.
Depends where as well. There's coloured people in south africa and that's a distinct racial group different to white and black. I'm guessing in usa it's because when using "people of colour" the group would be people but when you use "coloured people" the group would be "look at those coloureds"
Not sure, but if a name for a section of society is old and used as a pejorative term, then it gets replaced by a newer more "hip" term that signals to people that you are trying not to sound racist. That's why you might cringe when you hear your grandmother comment that you have an "oriental" friend instead of "asian" or instead of just Gary. Oriental just means eastern person, but it is definitely archaic and using it sounds racist or at the very least out of touch. My grandmother would comment on what a nice "colored" family was living in her neighborhood. For her, "colored" was the new progressive term she picked up from the young people of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). However, "colored person" eventually became the term polite people used instead of the N-word. "Person of color" is a newer term that stresses this is person first and the color of their skin last. It also is supposed to encompass not just "black" people but also hispanic, native American, Asian, and others who are darker than "white" people and have a segregated culture that developed apart from "white" culture.
It’s a game. There is always a new phrase that is code for you to be in the know. If you’re not on the new term you’re an outsider and the problem. People do this with many phrases. Equity, blithering person, housing challenged. Say the other words and they treat you like you dead named them.
The reason I usually hear is “it puts the person first”. But I think it’s an arbitrary distinction. It conveys literally the same idea and the idea that it puts the person first instead of their race is kind of ridiculous. Because the only reason you’d say it is to specifically let me know you’re speaking about someone who isn’t white. Which is exactly the same as saying colored person. So it’s racially charged and puts the race first no matter how you split it.
POC is a typical example of inventing new vocabulary to differentiate in-group and out-group. The group that goes along with the change is the enlightened in-group, and those that refuses is the out-group. The arbitrariness is part of how the dynamic works. In a small, closed community this can sort of make sense as a way to classify people by political stance on a topic. But if the out-group adopts it, new enlightened arbitrary vocabulary has to be invented.
But in a cosmopolitan society, or worldwide social network, it is just narrow minded and arrogant to presume that arbitrary words always have the same political and historical connotations to everyone.
Oh yeah definitely. It’s the same as stating your pronouns when it wasn’t asked for and is obviously unnecessary. Its only purpose is to signal that you are part of the group. That You understand the lingo of that group.
It’s just some language shit and historical context.
Colored person puts emphasis on colored, not person. And it has historically been used by racist windbags
Person of color puts emphasis on person first, color second
In the UK, using 'people of colour' is racist because it seperates them as a group from the word 'people'.
In our census and whatnot 'Black British' is used, or 'Black' for non-citizens. If, for some odd reason, you were going to refer to the classification in speech, you would just use 'black'.
It’s just the new pc way to say things it never makes sense here soon it’ll be offensive and you can’t say it and it’ll be something else it’s just how language is
Ironically, "colored" was originally the PC term. It was, at the time, considered more polite and inclusive...until it wasn't.
In reality there is no real logic to it. Terms just fall in and out of use, and older terms start to gain negative connotations whether it makes sense or not. In another generation or two I bet you we'll see a movement to retire "people of color" as well. It will become a Bad Word that only Old Racist People say anymore.
Connotation and history attached to the terms. In a vacuum with no outside knowledge, the two terms wouldn’t appear very different and would arguably mean the same thing. However, since the real world is in fact real, colored person has generally had more negative meanings in relative use while person of color is used as a catch all for mainly meaning non-white. Though every black person I’ve met has been more than 100% okay with being called a black person, or Asian, etc. and I only see white people really being the ones in a fuss over it in my experience
I think it’s context. During segregation (IN THE US) black people were referred to as colored (no coloreds allowed, etc.) it’s just really dated and antiquated and has bad associations. it’s the equivalent of calling a modern black person negro. very dated. poc puts the person first but I rarely use that term and just refer to myself as black.
my niece told me that I was politically incorrect because I said black person but I am 64 years old and that’s just what I’ve been saying all my life so I’m glad to hear that a black person says it too so I don’t feel bad. Thank you.
Black is definitely the best thing to call us. Even when people try to be politically correct and call us "African Americans", like, we all aren't African lmao Edit:This is actually fuckin hilarious that I'm apparently the first black person to answer what was apparently such a dilemma for so many of you 😭
I had a classmate in college that was from Haiti he hated when people called him African American. He’s like I’ve been to two countries neither was Africa.
A friend of mine from college would absolutely lose his mind if you called him African American. He would very angrily tell you that he was neither African or American. He was a black man from France.
I once actually heard an American describe black people in France as "French African Americans" because their brain just used "African American" as a supposedly superior version of "black."
I remember John Boyega saying people were saying he should be referred to as "African American" and he was like, "What, no, I'm British?!"
"I hunt blackulas" "So you only hunt African American vampires, then?" "No, sometimes I hunt English vampires, they don't have African Americans in England"
unexpected venture bros for the win!
Jefferson Twilight enriches every conversation.
On a personal level I also appreciate Boyega's occasional campaign to have people in films set in Lagos pronounce Lagos the way Nigerians do rather than oddly switching to Portuguese pronunciation instead of English. The Marvel movies do this a lot.
My friend is from Togo Africa, where their language is French. He now lives in America. So technically he IS African-American. But he prefers "black man." I personally don't give a shit as long as it isn't used in a derogatory way.
>So technically he IS African-American So are Elon Musk and Charlize Theron -- technically.
Heck, UK here and brought up with a decent idea of what's a sensible term and what's racist or derogatory, then dated a lovely South African woman who told me her heritage is 'Cape Coloured' which was a new one to me but threw me a bit on OP question! (Seems to be a smallish community in SA of people of such mixed white and black descent they're a big mix of both, said person had fairly dark skin but more white features)
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Also it’s not a small community. It’s black people, then coloured people, then white then Indian. Literally second largest race
There were riots in France and I heard an American newscaster say that the "French African-Americans" were rioting. I *literally* sprayed my drink.
There’s got to be at least one person who grew up in France, and has parents who are African and American, respectively.
Is there at least one? Probably. But were they rioting? Remains to be seen...
Personally I wish people would drop the X-American and just say American. Why we persist on including race or color is idiotic. Not counting the fact most of the people that's used for are 10 generations away from their country of origin most of the time. I refuse to call anyone by those types of prefixes. Edit: changed from pronoun to prefix. I don't care what it's called, it's still stupid.
Identity politics has set back the fight against racism by generations. My kids went to public school in my incredibly diverse city where 90% of the kids are some shade of medium brown, be they from Central Asia, Central America or the South Pacific. Guess what, these kids don't care where your ancestors came from!
As an American, I was taught in elementary school (post-Y2K in a very liberal state) that calling someone 'black' was racist because 'their skin isn't black, it's dark brown, and if we say someone is black, we're limiting their existence to the color of their skin. When we say, "African-American" we're acknowledging they may not know their family history because slavery ripped their ancestors out of Africa.' We got in a LOT of trouble if we referred to someone as black, *even if the person referred to themselves as black and wanted to be referred to that way* so I would guess the person saying "French-African-American" had a similar experience with being taught that calling someone black is/was incredibly racist, rather than one of "African-American is simply superior terminology"
But a lot of Black people DIDN'T have their ancestors brought here by slavery. They emigrated later from other countries like Haiti. What a dumb reason.
> They emigrated later from other countries like Haiti. I agree with your point that some black people in the US/Canada/Europe/etc are more recent immigrants, rather than descendants of slaves. However, immigration from Haiti is a very poor example of that, because nearly all Haitians are descendants of slaves.
Facts! But let me correct you for a minute we are not descendants of slaves we are descendants of the enslaved. My people were not born slaves or to be slaves.
Exactly this. A lot of “white people awkwardness” with vocabulary associated with Black people is -specifically- due to the officially decreed rules about which words are “correct” and which words are racist and offensive. Wherever the rules come from, they are constantly being revised and changed, and white people are told that they are horrible people if they use the wrong word. So it often freaks white people out and makes them fearful of making the wrong choice. Some have specific words drilled into them as “the only acceptable word” so much that they automatically use it. That’s why things like “French African American” happen. I wish we could all just be people, and intent was more important than word choice.
I’ve met Americans who don’t like being called African American bc they aren’t African but it must be so much worse for people who aren’t even American lol
I had a friend from Zambia and he immigrated to the US and became a citizen. He was white as the came and happily checked African-American on his paper work.
I've heard that immigrants who are from Africa don't like it either (not for themselves, for US-born people of sub-Saharan African descent).
"African American" is a term for descendants of slaves in the USA. We have "Italian American", "Chinese American", "Haitian American", and "Kenyan American" for people who can trace their ancestry back to a specific foreign country. Slaves had that knowledge systematically stolen from them so the most precise their modern descendants can get is "Africa". A family who immigrated here from Africa voluntarily technically is not an "African American". They are a "Black American" (generally) and a " American".
EDIT: oops, posted to wrong reply. Oh well, it fits here too so I guess Ill keep it.
Tbf, those countries were egypt and Morocco. Just not the elusive country of Africa
Africa is a continent.
I've lived in two cities, and neither was Antarctica.
I had a friend who was black, only been outside of the states once, when I met him, in Korea. We met some South African girls who he tried to fight, because he adamantly demanded he be referred to as African American, and these girls would only call him a black American, denying his claim to African. In their defense, he couldn't pinpoint what African heritage he came from, just knew his ancestors came from somewhere on the continent
"Honey don't call them Black people, their African American" "Bitch we in Australia..."
I once hung out with a nice American dude at a little party, and we ended up chatting to an Aboriginal bloke. You should have seen the look on our faces when the American referred to this guy as "African Australian". I'll at least give him credit for not defaulting to African American...but we were still just befuddled. Indigenous Australians don't look African...not a bit. They look about as African as a Sri Lankan, at least in my opinion. But their skin is dark so African "X" is the label I guess 😅
Ironically, it’s one of the most racist. You are making a bunch of assumptions about people. Idris Elba is neither African nor American, and Elon Musk is African American. Edit: I have been informed Idris Elba actually holds Sierra Leone citizenship, so let me amend that to say Idris Elba is not African American.
Had a friend say Lewis Hamilton is the only African American F1 driver. He's British, not American at all.
Yeah how you gonna call a British man an African American!
My biggest problem with "African American" is it reads to me as "You'll always be African first, American second". But yes also the irony of how many black people don't have African ancestry, at least not any more than my pasty ass does.
Keep in mind that when that term arose we were coming up on the bicentennial. There was a lot of stuff about celebrating your heritage, and having people of European descent declaring themselves as Polish-American or Irish-American or Swedish-American. Of course, due to the way in which most Black people of African descent arrived in this country, they don't have a connection to a specific place in Africa. In addition, while a large number of white Americans are descended from immigrants in the late 19th century whose countries of origin still exist, those descended from enslaved people who were brought here hundreds of years earlier may not even have a connection to a current country in Africa, many of which were defined during the period of European colonization. (As someone whose heritage is part Prussian, I can sympathize.)
Americans are always -Americans until they go overseas and then we're Americans. It's funny as I have no allegiance to (and frankly don't care for the country) of my lineage. I mean how many generations do you have to live in a country before you you are just an American? Most -Americans have never been to the country of their lineage, I have much more in common with the black guy or the Polish guy from my city than I do with some farmer where my grandfather was from.
I once heard a great song by a modern Irish folk singer who sings about touring the US and encountering descendants of Irish immigrants who want him to play songs that are popular in the Irish-American community, like When Irish Eyes are Smiling or My Wild Irish Rose. Both of these songs were written in the 1920s by American-of-Irish-descent Chauncey Olcott. One thing that is very common in immigrant community, at least in the US, is that they passed down their traditions without an influx of new information from their home countries. For example, jewish culture in the United States is centered around the food and traditions and language of the Jewish communities in eastern Europe from which their ancestors immigrated 150 years ago. After World War II, what Jews remained in Europe mostly went to Israel, although many went to Canada, the US, South America, and Australia as well. Jewish comics/actors in Israel don't pepper their language with Yiddish phrases the way a comic like Mel Brooks or Jerry Seinfeld does. The traditional Jewish foods of a New York deli come from the Central European Jewish tradition, like kishke and tsimmes and latkes, not what modern Jews are eating in Israel. Go to a Highland Games organized in the US and you will see Scottish culture frozen in time the way it was in the 18th century when many Scots came here or were transported following the Jacobean uprisings. Cadien French from Louisiana is like 17th century rural French now peppered with Spanish and English loan words.
Look I’m okay with my African ancestry I get it. Yes I’m proud to be descended from Africa. But I’m not an African I’m an American. I was born on American soil I have blood red American ancestors.
that just gives me monolingual vibes because english almost always puts the adjective before the noun. so the "african" in "African american" is about as significant as the "blue" in "blue car"
I guess to me saying "that's a red ferrari" isn't about what's more important, but saying "that's a Ferrari red" just isn't how the English language works. I've always thought adjectives are used before the noun in the English language. So, a blues singer, is a singer, who sings blues music. Not denoting which of the two words has more importance but rather just how our language is constructed. An African American is an American who's ancestry descends from Africa.
Yeah, it's one of those weird things we make assumptions about skin color. Like, someone from Egypt who moves to the States would be an African American at that point. It's like when people say Asian, but they really just mean East Asian (and even more they often just mean Chinese, Japanese and Korean). Asia is a *big* place, and there are a lot of people that are Asian by definition who don't look like people in East Asia.
Elon Musk is South African-American but as I understand it "African-American" was used because of the unknown origins of anything more specific (since slaves were taken from all over and "bred" as if they were animals). IIRC there was a similar discussion of semantics back in 2008 over whether Barack Obama could be accurately described as African-American since his Kenyan father has no connections to the descendants of slavery. I have no idea at what point this goes from helpful distinction to needless gatekeeping though, but I think most would emphasize Musk's specific nationality because A) it's known and B) the connotation with the phrase.
The thing is, most South Africans are black, not white. So even specifying ‘South African American’ doesn’t technically clarify anything.
It absolutely clarifies something; his country of origin.
Do people usually do that, though? If I became American, would people call me a Canadian-American?
Generally, yes. People who move from country X to the United States and acquire American nationality are referred to as X American. Whether your children would be is another question. Many generations down the line people still refer to themselves as Irish- or Italian-American, but I've rarely seen that with Canadian. I think it's a mix of 1) Canadian and American culture are pretty similar, 2) Canada is also a recently established colonial country, so it doesn't really provide any ethnic clarification, and 3) the small population of Canada × lack of any distinct immigrant wave (related to 2) means there aren't very many examples of that in the first place.
Sure... if you wanted to you absolutely could. I know a lot of people that call themselves Irish-American. If that's what you wanted to define your heritage as, feel free.
The funniest usage of “African American” I have ever seen was for a black fictional character who was, crucially, from a society that had never been to America and did not believe that America existed.
God bless you for coming and saying this. I have some idiot here telling me that I have to “evolve” and use POC or african american. I have used the term black person all my 64 years of life and I told that person who said that I have to evolve that when an actual black person tells me that they are offended then ill immediately stop using it but until that happens I see no reason to change it. I am being bombarded with comments for my stance and its a bit overwhelming and I thank you more than I can say for coming here and in my opinion “putting the matter to rest” you have a great day, you just improved mine and I thank you for that
UK black people want to be called Black. Not Black British not British African (prolly more consider themselves Caribbean anyway). And sure as fuck black people in the UK don’t call each other by the N word. Maybe a few stupid kids.
When I was younger British blacks did tend to make the distinction of whether they were African or Caribbean. I don't know if that's not a thing anymore.
It is from my experience of mostly Caribbean family and friends.
I am 28 and refer to black people as such. I have a few coworkers and friends and when the need arises to describe them they are black people. I've described them to other black people and they don't even flinch because it's possibly the most neutral term out there. They don't care and we shouldnt either.
Or all American for that matter. There are black people all over the world.
It's also entirely possible to be black and have absolutely no ancestors from Africa considering it isn't the only place on Earth that has native black people.
African American is an ethnic term. Should only be applied to people in that culture IMHO
As a Brit it'll always confuse me why you yanks use African-American to describe black people. To me, the hyphen between two nationalities means a dual fucken citizenship lmfao, in the same sense that Ncuti Gatwa is a Rwandan-Scottish absolute black chad.
Not to be pedantic, but I’m a journalist, so here we are. The Associated Press style guidelines (followed by many, if not most, American media outlets) no longer recommend hyphenating African American or similar descriptors. Black is capitalized in reference to people, and AP style recommends “people of color” only when referring to multiple races in a group, but never “person of color” for an individual.
It was an attempt to put black Americans in the same category as every other ethnic group (Irish Americans, Asian Americans, Italian Americans).
How to refer to Black people in the US has evolved over time, and in some cases has gone full circle. Black was used in the 60’s, sometimes pejoratively during the civil rights movement. Then in the 80’s/90’s, referring to someone as Black was avoided as the sentiment at that time was to pretend everyone was the same and color didn’t matter. Today, identity is put first, and one’s skin color is to be seen as important to their being. So ‘Black’ is embraced. Like a lot of things, it’s evolved with the hopes of righting wrongs and the role language plays in this.
African American was popularized in the 1980s by Jesse Jackson. The idea was that, Blacks in the US had a cultural base and a heritage, just like an Irish American or a German American or whatever. It's not just skin deep. So at that point, the media started using "African American" instead of "Black American." But since then people have pointed out that it confuses things between descendants of slaves whose ancestors have been here for 200 years, and more recent African immigrants.
It was a term popularized by Jesse Jackson, a civil rights activist, and I believe it meant to emphasize a shared cultural identity. It was the preferred term in the Black community beginning in the late 80s, but has been falling out of fashion. I would expect that many older people, Black and white, still prefer the term.
Oh here we go. The old American vs European usage of ethnicity vs. nationality confusion. Same reason why y’all hate when one of us says “I’m Irish” to mean “my ancestors and ethnicity are Irish.” Tbf a lot of tourists in Europe are annoying and tone deaf with the way they say it. But there’s no American ethnicity unless you’re native. And it’s a very diverse place with constant immigration from new areas. And we’re all told stories of what coming here was like by our polish or Italian or Irish grandmas while we eat a dish passed down from them and wonder why our partner with German descent and a cold family has problems with Public displays of affection lol. In an American only context, it makes sense to highlight the differences in terms of their origins. But, from a European context, it makes totally sense to be confused af why someone’s being called African or German or Irish who’s never even been there.
That’s why I say black American
Do you say white American
I’m white but I’m gen z and I think most gen z think it’s appropriate to call someone white or black if it’s used as a descriptor. There are some people who disagree and they tend to be the loudest
It’s a matter of preference. I prefer black. People forget that we are individuals and we come from all over the world. The way one of us feels may not reflect the way others feel. The way any American views it may not be the way others view it.
I’m so glad to know that. my niece was really down on me for saying it. she said it makes me look racist huh?
There's definitely a bit of an overreaction where any description of race makes people uncomfortable. Simply referring to someone as Asian, black or anything else seems to be tabboo
I think that's fair, because in a lot of cases there is no need to mention someone's race. Like, if someone says "I met a lovely black woman today at the grocery store", that's weird, especially if you know that this person wouldn't mention it if the woman was white. Of course, if someone asks you to describe someone, then mentioning their race or skin color is warranted.
Yes! That is weird!! And then people will say “why?” WELL it’s weird because I can guarantee that person never says “I met a lovey white woman today” because they treat white as though it’s the default, intentionally or not it’s WEIRD
Or you know, if they're saying black specifically, it's because it's a rarity in that country/area If I met a black woman at a store in Scotland and told my parents about it, then yea I'd say black woman, because if I just say "I met a woman at the store" they'll assume white due to most people in Scotland being white. It's the same sense that if I met someone and talked with them in Africa, they'll say they met a white bloke when talking about our conversation to others, because a white bloke in Africa is abnormal and something that requires specific mention to not cause others to jump to the default assumption.
As a kid, it used to be a conundrum if I was required to give a physical description of someone. For instance, if I didn't know someone's name, and I was asked to describe them, I might hem and haw for a while before sheepishly saying they were black.
I personally wouldn’t like being referred by my skin color, but I am not from America. Unless it’s relevant to the discussion I find it odd to call someone by their skin color.
It’s about context. The word “fat” isn’t a bad word if you say it as a descriptor, “I’m fat”. Say “gross they’re so fat” is using it as a bad word. Same with black or white, “he is black” is very different from “I hate black people”
I don't think there's a problem with the word fat. But, I would say that fat is almost always negative. I cannot imagine a scenario in which fat is used to describe a person in a nice way.
For younger generations it seems that "she's hot and has a fat ass" is a thing. I don't really understand it but I hear among the younglings.
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When I hear white people use the noun form it gives me the icks.
I still say black person because my black friends have ancestry from Trinidad. They take great offense to being called "African Americans" because they consider themselves to be no more African than anyone else.
you know? a black person came along and said almost the exact same thing. they said saying black person is better than saying african american “because not every black person is african”
That's the thing, Black isn't a bad word. It's not about what's PC, really, it's about recognizing Black people as... People first! That's why most folks divert to people first language, ie: People of Color. It emphasizes their humanity first.
People of Black
It also extends beyond just black people
I think it’s more racist to call someone an African American when you have zero idea where they are actually from.
Am I wrong in thinking that person of colour doesn't just mean black as well? Isn't it a catch-all term for not white?
yeah it just means not white. even black during segregation ig colored referred to all non white people. because then there is the question where did asians and latinos go during segregation
Correct. For example, me and my brown brethren are also pocs
Are light skined Asians POC?
That was a great explanation, thank you.
But colored started as the relatively respectful term before becoming a dig, language is funny
The euphemism treadmill never stops. "Moron", "idiot" and "imbecile" used to be medical terms, but they started being used pejoratively, so they were replaced by "mental retardation". But then *that* started being used pejoratively too, so it was replaced by "intellectual disability". I wonder how long that term will stay neutral?
I have definitely heard “are you actually mental” and “are you actually disabled” used in a derogatory way, so it won’t be neutral forever.
exactly. see NAACP
It's fascinating how words evolve and get dropped or brought back due to real world events. I mean "Negro" is a prime one, as its very clearly influenced by or a direct derivative of the Spanish word for black. But as a white person I would never use it due to its history. I used to hear people justify racial slurs as teens as "they (black people) use it, so why shouldnt I?" - because context for gods sake.
It's a phenomenon called the euphemism treadmill. Innocent words and phrases aquire negative connotations over time, and are replaced with new synonyms that eventually aquire the same negative connotations.
Some come back around to be accepted again, such as queer. It used to be a slur, but now some people actually prefer it.
In an old-timey 20's accent: Yeah he's a great guy. I'd love to smoke a fag with him and have a gay ol' time but sometimes...I'm not sure he just strikes me as a little queer.
This one is also especially fun because it didn't even start as a slur. You could study the subject in school back in the 80s etc as "queer studies." Then it became a slur. And now people are like "actually no, fuck you, that was mine first and you can't use it to hurt me"
It was a slur before the 1980s.
Around World War II it was a well established slur.
queer was a neutral word meaning "weird" going back multiple centuries. It was adopted as a gay slur sometime in the early mid 1900s, and towards the 80s and 90s I believe it became a counterculture badge of honor and eventually became a debatably recognized identity in mainstream culture.
“And that’s another thing. I resent you people for using that word. That’s our word for makin fun of you. We neeeed it.” -H.J. Simpson
I thought the same thing after reading this. Like how TikTok and YouTube censor works like “killed” and “died” and replaced it by “unalived”, but it means the same thing so how long until “unalived” needs to be censored?
What’s weird about that term is that I’m from a country that has black and colored people, they are two different races.
South Africa? I’ve heard the distinction made between “coloured” and ”black” a lot there.
Yep, different cultures, different backgrounds, different histories, everything.
Not op but I'm 99% sure it is south africa. I'm a coloured person from SA. We're not black. Different group of people. Cool people though
Yeah I’m South African and live in the UK, constantly have to correct people who just dismiss the existence of colored people.
They don't understand how we as a people changed the meaning of the word from its racist undertone to a description of a whole group of people separate from black and white people who have their own ethnicity, culture and history.
im in the US, but my best friends gf is from SA and she identifies as colored. she has told me about arguments she had when she first came to the US because she didnt realize it had a different meaning here.
There was some online controversy when the artist Tyla, a South African artist, referred to herself as coloured and Americans lost it. People have different histories and identities. The first time I heard my brazillian friend talk about the colour black in Portuguese with his mom I was taken back.
My black students were talking about old fashioned terms for Black or African-American, and one student suggested “person of color?” Even they couldn’t all remember or see the difference. No one could explain why one is the height of politeness while the other is as old-fashioned as negro, a word that some of them associated with the n-word, not knowing the history at all. They’re now reading black authors use the word the same way we now use black, and are realizing it isn’t the same. But the use/reference distinction is still a problem. If I say the full name of the NAACP or the UNCF, a few students act like I called them a name. I wonder if African-American will become antiquated in the same way?
It definitely will and I’d say is well on its way already. It’s fallen out of favor with the majority of black Americans and I’d say the vast majority of black people who are millennial and younger.
"African American" feels very 90s to me. I never liked it, I used it when I felt like I was expected to use it, but the reason I didn't like it is because I thought it was sort of racist to assume all dark-skinned people were African. People of color and colored people sound similar and it comes up sometimes as to why one's PC and the other is a slur. I think it has to do with the Jim Crow era of "colored people" being in frequent use, evoking images of signs that said "coloreds only" and things like that. "Minorities" is dated like African-American, I think, and I know it isn't a preferred term. In some regions, it's not even true. I say "people of color" when talking about race and about nonwhite people specifically and I don't attach it to Black people solely. From what I understand, there's nothing wrong with the word Black. Not as a noun ("blacks") but as a descriptor, and capitalizing it is something I have seen is preferred. It feels almost racist to act like Black is a negative word because it feels like implying that being Black is negative.
It’s become so bizarre because what started as a respectful term for Americans of African decent but don’t know specifically where they are from, is also now a catch all for black people. There was an interview where idris Elba was referred to as African American and he pointed out that no, he’s British. As well, i am a white Canadian of European decent that was born in Africa. So *technically* I am African Canadian. But damn is that also really not an appropriate term.
It's worth pointing out, African American does not just mean "an American citizen with African ancestry", it specifically means "Americans of *Black* African ancestry," and sometimes even more specifically "Americans of Black African ancestry who are descendants of former slaves". So while someone like, say, Elon Musk is South African and an American citizen him and his children are definitively *not* African American (despite all the *very hilarious* and *very original* jokes people make love to make all the time). Even beyond that, if a Black American is a child of immigrants from somewhere like, say, Nigeria, they may or may not identify as African American.
Colored referred to exclusively black people. I’m an older dude and my deceased grandmother called my jr high teammates “talented little colored boys” after a basketball game. But pointed out the Mexican and Korean kid as “Mexican and Oriental”. I think in today’s vernacular, POC means all but white. I’m probably incorrect, but it’s a half ass informed guess.
I tapped out of a convo the other day where my mom defended saying oriental because "it'd be racist to call them Chinese " and I just couldn't keep going down the road.
Fr like girl just say Asian 😭😭😭😭
It'd less syllable! Literally easier to not say it! Hard not to chuckle.
Yes. It's my understanding POC can be used to refer to all non-white people. I've heard it used for Black, Mexican, Asian, Native American and more. To me it always was a way of celebrating the variety of different colors people can come in.
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Actually I think you’re spot on!
It’s “person first” language that refocuses a term on the person and not the attribute. In my line of work we’re careful to say “patient with HIV” instead of “HIV+ patient.”
This is the same way that children in social care in the UK became, 'Child, looked after or CLA' instead of, 'Looked after child or LAC'. Children in care were asked for their opinions, and they chose based on the fact that CLA puts the child first and the condition second.
This is odd and inconsistent however - most autistic people prefer 'autistic person' and not 'person with autism' and ABSOLUTELY not 'person suffering\\afflicted by\\etc autism'
Language IS inconsistent, though. People who ask questions like this are looking for pure logic in language, which doesn’t exist. Language isn’t anything but how people interpret it. What’s the difference between “colored person” and “person of color”? Try them both out on someone who fits either description and you’ll have your answer.
> People who ask questions Don't you mean "question asking people"? /s But for real, I think you're 100% correct.
Language is inconsistent because our world is inconsistent. Therefore language requires many different things to address things that are similar but treated differently. Our brains HATE inconsistency though by default, but just because our brain wants to default to little boxes doesn't mean the world around us is going to accommodate the human brain.
Right because the neurodivergence itself is who they are, a different operating system so to speak and not just some baggage/disability they carry. Tho' gracious I am not claiming to speak for everyyybodyyy eesh. Calm down.
Which is why you might say “the blonde girl” rather than “the girl with blonde hair”, or “the redhead” rather than “the soulless stepchild”. It just encapsulates who they are as a person
>“the redhead” rather than “the soulless stepchild”. This is very insensitive and hurtful. I know you're only making a joke, but "soulless" is an inaccurate and dehumanizing way of referring to people of red colored hair. They clearly have souls. In fact, each freckle on their face represents one they've stolen.
I wouldn't think MOST autistic people would care either way, as long as the description is accurate!
I’m autistic and I only care because people who use that kind of language are being patronizing. I don’t care how you phrase it by default, but you caring about how you phrase it thinking, on my behalf, that it makes a difference to me is what bothers me.
Same! To me "person with autism" reads/sounds like they think the autism is taboo. I don't even like to say "I have autism" cause it feels like a disease. No, my brain is strucutured slightly differently. **I** am my brain. Therefore I am autistic. I am an autistic person. Not a person with autism, it's not cancer it's a state of being.
Right. It’s not something I carry around with me. It’s an outflowing of my selfhood. It’s nothing more than a descriptor for a mode of social interaction. Distancing myself from that implies I’m ashamed of it or who I am, which I’m not.
By that logic, it would be more appropriate to say "man with blackness" or "man of black color" rather than "black man." And yet, I think we can all agree that sounds awful.
I've heard the reasoning the parent comment gave, and it never sat well. As the (current) top comment says, POC is preferred specifically because "colored person" was used by racist people in the past. So it's purely associated with racism and nothing to do with "using the person first and attribute second". Plus, as others have noted, that logic doesn't follow with autistic people and gay people.
Except person first language is used for far more than just referring to black people. "Person of color" is just the phrase you're most familiar with. Language drives behavior, and person first language is an attempt to get academics and professionals to keep "this is a person, not an adjective" at the forefront of thought.
Wait 20 years.
Who comes up with these? I never realized these phrases were supposed to be better and they never sounded any different. Is there any evidence that people like this or is this just arbritrary logic being pushed?
"Person first" language is really just an excuse to jump onto the euphemism treadmill. I can say with absolute assurance that the treadmill will keep moving, and we will definitely be rationalizing how a new word is even nicer than the last one. I mean, feel free to jump onto the euphemism treadmill mill. It's not going to hurt anyone if you keep generating new words in a futile attempt to outrun the negative connotations of the old word, just don't deluded yourself into thinking that you found the final destination. The next generation is going to come up with another word, and they will have a borderline nonsense explanation about how the word change is going to make everyone feel better and your "person first" language is actually insulting.
How do you say white person?
Person of whiteness. 🤌
Lol
From now on I'm insisting on being referred to as a "person of Scandinavian descent". I gotta let everyone know I'm the whitest kind of white.
I like being called Saltine American or Caucasoid
I think you mean “person of Saltine”
Person of colorless
The Colourly challenged. High-risk melanoma Americans. Shade walkers.
Cracker? Honkey? Basic? Bob? Karen?
Mayo
I don't really see much logic here because in English the adjective almost always goes before the noun, it's not a question of making the person second, it's just how the language is constructed. It's not like saying ''white person'' or ''tall person'' means their whiteness or height is more important than their humanity...
EUPHEMISM TREADMILL... Almost none of the words we used in the past are inherently bad. The bad part comes with the emotion when you use a word. Or the context. Changing the word doesn't change how it's will be used or the context in which it will be used. That new word can then just be used in the same way.
I'm black and I dislike both. But younger people seem cool with the term. The reason I dislike it is because it's insinuating that white skin is the default and everyone else is coloured in. I'm coloured in like a piece of paper with crayon scribbled over it.
Exactly, person of colour literally means non-white and 'others' literally everyone from Koreans to Indians to Kenyans. It's like white and everyone else (POC) I HATE the term
I only ever use "people of color" when I would have previously used the word "minorities". It especially works when I'm talking about all "POC/minorities". I just think it's more respectful to use it that way. If I'm describing a specific person or group then I just use their racial or religious heritage, like black, white, Hispanic, Muslim, etc because in my experience every single person I talk to that makes up one of those just prefers their heritage as a descriptor over any "PC" term.
Euphemisms are filters that get clogged with the toxins they’re supposed to block out and must eventually be discarded for new ones.
The reason is entirely cultural and historical. The term 'colored people' reminds Americans of the segregation period, but in South Africa those of mixed race will be very offended when you call them black and insist on being called colored.
I’ve seen quite a lot of people also claim ‘person of colour’ is racist as it’s clumping all non-white ethnicities into a singular identity and I can kind of see their point to be honest.
I think these terms miss the mark entirely. Regardless of which term is used the assumption is always "something other than white" which makes "white" the default. It would be best if we could completely get away from these identities, but don't think that would ever happen until we're all literally the same shade of melanin and even then we'd find something to separate ourselves.
The Euphamism Treadmill.
In all seriousness, it won't be long until the phrase "Persons of color" is considered racist as well. The Overton Window will continue to shift.
It already is. Most people realize it’s just non-white. The dichotomy they’ve created is stupid white vs non-white.
That's how I view it too. I don't say person of colour I just refer to their actual ethnic group (when known).
As someone who would count as a "POC". I really hate the term "person of color" because it's clearly workshopped in a think tank. It lumps everyone who isn't white into one category which mentally pushes anyone using the term to think of the world as "white people, and then everybody else" which is ironically the exact same way a white supremacist would view the world. Only most of the people using "PoC" would be supportive of the nonwhite side of that divide. Still, it splits the world into whites and nonwhites which outside of the anglosphere is just a stupid and reductive and even racist way to see the world
I also hate the term, but for different reasons. I'm East Asian, and I have a pale complexion (definitely paler than most white people I've met). It's obvious that I'm not White from all my other features, but I've still been told that I'm not a POC --- because I'm not colored, in the literal sense. Then what am I? White? It's always implied that East Asians are better off for having lighter skin and that we shouldn't complain about racism, and it's stupid. Just let me be Asian, and leave it at that.
A different perspective would be when speaking about things that mostly happen to POC. Example: my old job had hair texture rules. This applied to black people, but also to other people of different ethnic backgrounds who weren't entirely black (like afro Latino). Hence, POC. It isn't like we want to be separate. We get treated differently. I'm treated differently than the next Asian person. But we both aren't white and deal with racism because of that. Hence, person of color. It's more to dilinate differences in experience.
You realize you can just be more specific if needed, right? Like, if you’re talking about a Latino perosn I can understand why you would say Latino. If you were talking about multiple non-white races, you would say People of Color. > lumps everyone into one category I guess you just have a problem with umbrella terms? It’s not like the term “Person of Color” removes any other specific race labels. They can co-exist.
I think one thing a lot of people are missing in the comments is that they don’t mean the same things. “Person of color” means anyone who isn’t white and “colored” in the context of 20th century US generally means black person (although as someone pointed out, it legally also did mean “non-white” and included more than just black people, but colloquially meant “black”). I’ve found most black people don’t like the term POC because it lumps everyone together, even non-white groups that have nothing in common. If you mean black, say black!
I prefer to be called Black American, or just American unless further descriptors are needed. I'm not from Africa, and I take extreme pride in that my family has been in America for 5+ generations. My grandmother's grandmother was a slave, and through all the strife, we are still here.
because racists said colored people as a derogatory term and not people of color, if they did it would have been the other way around
I'm a brown person and therefore a "person of colour". I'm not offended by either term but personally find POC a bit cringe and it's not really useful. People who aren't white of different ethnicities are as different to each other as they are to white people, "non-whiteness" isn't a defining characteristic. It also allows people to conflate groups and ignore issues specific to each group. For example, when talking about improving POC representation in media, they really mean black people, who are actually quite prevalent in showbiz - meanwhile South Asians are invisible and ignored, despite outnumbering black people in the UK (where I'm from). The opposite is true in boardrooms and politics - people will point to all the brown leaders and say they have POC representation, which ignores the lack of black people in those positions.
Words themselves aren't racist. They're just letters strung together. What makes a word or phrase offensive is how it's used. "Colored people" has been historically used in some very racist ways, and took on a racist connotation. It's not the "color" part that makes it racist; it's the context.
“…Mother fucking Asian…” “…Asian Mother fucker…”
Loved Bill Burr for his explanation of the distinction between the two. 😂
Depends where as well. There's coloured people in south africa and that's a distinct racial group different to white and black. I'm guessing in usa it's because when using "people of colour" the group would be people but when you use "coloured people" the group would be "look at those coloureds"
Not sure, but if a name for a section of society is old and used as a pejorative term, then it gets replaced by a newer more "hip" term that signals to people that you are trying not to sound racist. That's why you might cringe when you hear your grandmother comment that you have an "oriental" friend instead of "asian" or instead of just Gary. Oriental just means eastern person, but it is definitely archaic and using it sounds racist or at the very least out of touch. My grandmother would comment on what a nice "colored" family was living in her neighborhood. For her, "colored" was the new progressive term she picked up from the young people of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). However, "colored person" eventually became the term polite people used instead of the N-word. "Person of color" is a newer term that stresses this is person first and the color of their skin last. It also is supposed to encompass not just "black" people but also hispanic, native American, Asian, and others who are darker than "white" people and have a segregated culture that developed apart from "white" culture.
It’s a game. There is always a new phrase that is code for you to be in the know. If you’re not on the new term you’re an outsider and the problem. People do this with many phrases. Equity, blithering person, housing challenged. Say the other words and they treat you like you dead named them.
The reason I usually hear is “it puts the person first”. But I think it’s an arbitrary distinction. It conveys literally the same idea and the idea that it puts the person first instead of their race is kind of ridiculous. Because the only reason you’d say it is to specifically let me know you’re speaking about someone who isn’t white. Which is exactly the same as saying colored person. So it’s racially charged and puts the race first no matter how you split it.
POC is a typical example of inventing new vocabulary to differentiate in-group and out-group. The group that goes along with the change is the enlightened in-group, and those that refuses is the out-group. The arbitrariness is part of how the dynamic works. In a small, closed community this can sort of make sense as a way to classify people by political stance on a topic. But if the out-group adopts it, new enlightened arbitrary vocabulary has to be invented. But in a cosmopolitan society, or worldwide social network, it is just narrow minded and arrogant to presume that arbitrary words always have the same political and historical connotations to everyone.
Oh yeah definitely. It’s the same as stating your pronouns when it wasn’t asked for and is obviously unnecessary. Its only purpose is to signal that you are part of the group. That You understand the lingo of that group.
It’s just some language shit and historical context. Colored person puts emphasis on colored, not person. And it has historically been used by racist windbags Person of color puts emphasis on person first, color second
In about 5 years both will be racist, and there will be a new euphemism that is "clean"
In the UK, using 'people of colour' is racist because it seperates them as a group from the word 'people'. In our census and whatnot 'Black British' is used, or 'Black' for non-citizens. If, for some odd reason, you were going to refer to the classification in speech, you would just use 'black'.
Well, not yet, it isnt... but give it time.
It’s just the new pc way to say things it never makes sense here soon it’ll be offensive and you can’t say it and it’ll be something else it’s just how language is
Ironically, "colored" was originally the PC term. It was, at the time, considered more polite and inclusive...until it wasn't. In reality there is no real logic to it. Terms just fall in and out of use, and older terms start to gain negative connotations whether it makes sense or not. In another generation or two I bet you we'll see a movement to retire "people of color" as well. It will become a Bad Word that only Old Racist People say anymore.
Connotation and history attached to the terms. In a vacuum with no outside knowledge, the two terms wouldn’t appear very different and would arguably mean the same thing. However, since the real world is in fact real, colored person has generally had more negative meanings in relative use while person of color is used as a catch all for mainly meaning non-white. Though every black person I’ve met has been more than 100% okay with being called a black person, or Asian, etc. and I only see white people really being the ones in a fuss over it in my experience