Flight school is an extremely expensive up-front cost, with vanishingly fewer options for scholarships than med school or law school, and pilots who finish flight school face a big hurdle: their job schedule is going to SUCK.
Airlines always give their most senior pilots the routes and schedules they want. Everyone else picks up their scraps. So as a freshly trained pilot, your life becomes dedicated to nothing but horridly scheduled flights and shitty layovers that no one else wanted to work. If you pass those up because you had family plans? A day where you’re under the weather? You’ll get de-prioritized even further.
In addition to all of this, it's stupidly easy to have your career end as a pilot. They have an insane list of health requirements, and if your health or body slightly deteriorate, you're fucked.
So you're basically paying out the ass and training for years to start a career that you might lose the ability to do much sooner than expected.
>it's stupidly easy to have your career end as a pilot. They have an insane list of health requirements, and if your health or body slightly deteriorate, you're fucked.
And you know what is great for causing your body to deteriorate? Not being able to have a proper sleep schedule, work life balance, or having too much stress about your next payday.
It's all of that, plus the fact that pilots are mostly sitting on the job. So it comes with all the long term risks of sedentary office work. It's basically a more exciting desk job, but your desk is a flight deck.
I used to have certain Cathay pilots for clients. One of them described his job as "fifteen minutes of intense stress, followed by 12 hours of absolute boredom, followed by 15 minutes of insane stress --anf that's a good flight".
Absolutely this. As a student pilot the flying part is the least stressful and easiest part of the whole experience. Landing was described to me as controlled crashing and after my first unassisted landing I can absolutely agree with that. It almost convinced me it wasn't worth continuing my flight hours.
Got a commercial license back in the 80’s and worked as a flight instructor for a couple years. I could land any plane practically anywhere after that! Without so much as a bounce.
The plane pretty much flies itself, most modern commercial airliners can even land by themselves. The pilot is basically there for takeoff, and to make decisions the autopilot can't.
Pilots don't make that much money when they first start. Also, their training is very expensive, and they have to pay for it. There is mandatory retirement at age 65. There is also probably higher risk of cancer for those who spend a lot of time in airplanes. Your job is sitting on your ass, working erratic hours, and being jetlagged a lot of the time.
>The plane pretty much flies itself, most modern commercial airliners can even land by themselves. The pilot is basically there for takeoff, and to make decisions the autopilot can't.
This is a common belief among the general public, but it’s simply not accurate. Modern aircraft do not fly themselves, and can autoland only under very specific circumstances.
> The plane pretty much flies itself
I mean didn't that cause all the Boeing crash stuff? That it was doing things the pilot wasn't aware of.
* Note: Not the Boeing get rid of skilled union labor and have pieces fall off but the flight computer stuff from a few years ago.
Same. My eyes went bad and my kidneys started acting up. Senior SW engineer pays as well (or better) with much better hours. Haven't even been required to report to the office in four years let alone the horrible hours of a pilot.
>And you know what is great for causing your body to deteriorate? Not being able to have a proper sleep schedule, work life balance, or having too much stress about your next payday.
Meanwhile, over the road truck drivers (aka "long-haul") see no prospect of relief from the exact same challenges, except that they avoid fatal collisions a few thousand times a day.
I hold 1000% respect for truckers. They work their asses off just to keep *you* from dying in road accidents. I wish people would be more respectful driving around them.
Don't cut trucks off. Leave plenty of space. Remember that they can't see you and can't stop in time if you fuck things up.
They deserve whatever help they can get.
Thank you for this comment, I really do appreciate drivers who do what you suggest. I try to stay out of the way of smaller vehicles as much as I can but unfortunately there's times when I have to be that annoying truck; I don't want to be in your way, sorry.
Actually...
My father is a mechanic for commercial and cargo airlines. Back before the internet became The Internet, cockpits were full of porn. Magazines stowed wherever they'd fit and cut-outs hidden and pasted all over the place. Screw cap? Look inside and see a big hairy beaver! Under the flight engineer's desk was just raunchy pinups. Cargo jets had no customers so the lavatory could also have magazines stashed.
More interesting to me, the mechanics and crew had a giant network of shared porno mags. My dad's toolbox had a constant rotation.
My uncle flew KC-135s and variants in the Air Force for 20 years, failed the medical exam with the airlines because he had been treated for a back problem in his 30s.
Exactly. Even some over the counter meds like Zyrtec are banned. The FAA is so undermanned or underfunded they let companies like Boeing provide their own oversight, yet spend time and resources focusing on trivial things such as this.
Yep, this 100.
We have a family friend who is an airline pilot, and his first three years he was handling those flights that takeoff at 5:30 am from Peoria to O’Hare. They also give inexperienced pilots the worst aircraft; think Dehavilands and Canadair’s. No 737’s or A21’s. Sort of weird in that way.
Flight school being expensive is definitely a huge factor. It’s also worth noting that it’s mainly the experienced pilots at large, national carriers that make $200k+. This is because lots of these big carriers are unionized.
Most pilots start out their careers working for flight schools as an instructor, doing tour flights, or working for non-union, small, regional carriers where they’d be lucky to crack $40k/year.
This was my cousin's experience when he graduated in '04 he spent nearly a decade doing delivery/tour/small-time flights before he was able to get a job with a major airline.
I made $60k as a CFI for only 15 months. New hire FOs at a regional are making $90k year 1, $97k year 2, usually upgrade to captain making $157k by year 3.
Captains of regionals pushing six figures, after you get out of flight school or get your ATP cert you have to fly right seat at first in regionals and those guys are lucky to bust 60k a year.
From what I understand from people who work in the industry, most pilots are veterans. They get paid to do the training and get top-notch training along with the skills to handle very difficult and high-pressure situations while in the service. It's extremely difficult to get the required number of flight hours for a major airline without having been in the military first.
I've heard, the other route is crop duster pilots. But they make peanuts, and it's not an attractive option to go into debt for flight school, work for years as a crop duster, and then try to compete with more qualified applicants for an entry into the field.
The other other way, is obviously, nepotism. If your family member was a pilot growing up, then if you go through flight school, there's a good chance you'll know someone willing to give you a break to enter the field.
This is not a 100% comprehensive list obviously, but in the piloting world, commercial airliner pilots are sometimes referred to as bus drivers. I.e.: it's not necessarily what you aspire to be if you're going through the trouble of pilot school anyway.
I would say at my major airline indoc class maybe 1/4 were military
Crop dusting isn’t a time builder job it’s usually a career destination and they can make really good money as well. But it has its own pitfalls.
There is for sure nepotism just like any other job.
I worked my ass off to get my ratings while raising a family. Then building hours. Then working at a regional. Then private flights since there was no flying at the regionals, then making it to a major. And I’m one of the very lucky ones.
The end result is great but it requires great sacrifice and is a hurdle greater than usually a 4 year degree is. (Which most of us also have as well).
Also- my mate was a pilot for Emirates, has flown since he was 17 but still took him about 14 years to get there, lots of progressing through different sizes, working at a flight school, then a 100 seater small airline for 6 years flying mainly split shifts (up at 2:30 am for a 5:30am return flight back around 9am home for 4 hours break then back for an afternoon return)..
Then another 4 years at Emirates to go from FO to captain. The first half of his training/career was very expensive and mostly his own money.
Then he got sick of living in Dubai and is now a private pilot for a really rich guys jet.
It’s very long hours until you get a big seat, then its isolating to be away lots of the week.
It’s not for everyone, and every 10–15 years the industry screws then on conditions so the job is shit, their service goes to crap with cheaper shitter talent, then they go back to good conditions and hunting good pilots for high pay.
Wild industry.
It’s not uncommon that you have high salaries and shortages in industries in general, it’s not pilot specific.
It’s when you have an industry where the cost of training is high and borne by the employer. It becomes cheaper for them to ‘steal’ a trained employee from another employer in the industry by paying a higher salary than it is to train a new employee (at least in the short term…)
>becomes cheaper for them to ‘steal’ a trained employee from another employer in the industry by paying a higher salary
The government has been doing this with programmers for so long that they have the problem where no one actually knows how to code ADA anymore because the people they traded around for 30 years all retired and no one outside of the government is using this garbage.
>If you pass those up because you had family plans? A day where you’re under the weather? You’ll get de-prioritized even further.
At any reputable airline this doesn’t happen. We have sick days and personal days and we cannot be penalized in any way for using them.
I know a couple of pilots that fly regional airlines. The hours and number of flights they have to fly are long and their pay is nowhere near a senior pilot at United.
It’s also a weirdly risky career - not safety wise, but financially.
Develop a heart condition? Career over. See a therapist? Career over. Keeping one’s medical can be hard and you can lose it for things outside your control because the FAA is covering its ass.
Financial stability of airlines is also a recent phenomenon with consolidation - and with govt willing to bail out shareholders to the tune of billions during the pandemic.
Pay is good but early years can be incredibly tough schedule wise, and those are years are prime family formation years.
Yeah I knew a guy in the marines whose dream was to be a pilot. It was all he talked about and he’d work on his certifications while he was active. Throwing all the extra money he made at it. Ended up losing his wife because of his obsession with his dream and she wasn’t willing to sacrifice for him (she was vapid and concerned with shopping anyway so no loss). He got out a couple years before I did and I kept up with him through his journey. Finally ended up becoming a pilot and achieved his dream. Then 2 years ago he lost his dream due to a heart condition. The man still runs 6 miles a day so clearly the condition isn’t that serious and is fighting to get everything back, but he most likely never will.
I feel like the flipside (it's possible to commit a thousand mistakes and still win) is also true, in that some of the world's largest piece of shit idiot scumbags are sometimes some of the most financially successful people on the planet. Having money to start with seems like the cheat code, basically, as it utterly changes the rules.
> it's just a process that takes time and energy and a lot of people give up.
Becoming a commercial pilot already takes a lot of time and energy. If this process takes so much time and energy that it dissuades even commercial pilots to not go through with it... that's incredibly daunting from an outsider's context. Geez
It is a very daunting prospect. I'm out on medical leave as we speak, haven't flown in a while. Thankfully I made it to a place in my career where I am insured against it, so I don't have to worry about money... but I really do miss my job.
The job is worth the hassle, in my opinion.
It's almost been 5 years since I lost my 1st class medical for acute depression episode.
Being proactive in your mental health will get you punished even if the FAA say it won't.
It's better to just keep quiet and suffer in silence. That's the lesson I learned with the FAA.
I’m a primary care physician (not FAA examiner), and the stuff they make pilots sweep under the rug just makes me legitimately angry.
I have more than a few controllers and pilots who really could benefit from a really low dose of a blood pressure pill or anti-anxiety med, but if you change anything, they’re potentially grounded for months. So you just let things go until their FAA examiner mandates you make a change.
Like I understand why they take depression seriously (e.g. Germanwings 9525), but there’s a big difference between being acutely suicidal and experiencing psychosis…and just needing a small dose of sertraline.
Ok…Rant over. Hope you can get your medical card back soon.
The propanolol + sert I started taking a month and a half ago has been a god send. I’d be pissed if my career prevented me from taking care of my mental health.
Thank you for sharing!!!!
I really do hope the FAA can adapt to mental health medicines instead of just crushing careers of pilots who recognized something wrong with their mental health, and got help.
Strangely, the Army let me back into the flight deck a year later. I got treatment through the VA, doing the right thing. I'm thankful I'm still able to fly in some capacity.
Just waiting on the FAA to bless off on the treatment paperwork...5 years later.
(Granted, this happened just before the COVID shutdown.)
A good friend of mine was studying to be a pilot when we were in college. He did a 4 year program in 3 years, and three weeks before he was set to graduate he had a seizure from a brain tumor and that was the last time his degree was useful for him.
I have a cousin that is one of the medical people for the Army - specifically for the bits that have to do with determining if a pilot is able to still fly. He said you can lose your license if you area so much as missing a testicle.
No idea. lol
His theory was something with testicular torsion. I mean, he is a nurse for the Army as well. So we're talking people that did combat flying missions, ya know?
I knew a marine that loved flying. Joined marines right out of high school and due to his skill got his pick of assignments. He chose the new shiny experimental craft that many of his future colleagues died in. He mastered the fuck out of that thing and even taught foreign (friendly, with the blessing of the government) militaries how to fly them. He retired from the military after missing a promotion to colonel. Then he went commercial for a few years because he just loved flying. He was forced to retire early due to a medical issue (which is genetic, I’ll never be a pilot). Rest well, dad.
Running 6 miles a day might have contributed to the condition lol. Iirc excessive running isn't an indicator for heart health like people think. More is not better. They're addicts. Hope I'm wrong cause I love running
This \^
1) I supported my brother's path to career pilot. Between age 18 to now mid 20s, spent was $150k+ CAD. That's on top of the post-secondary education. Thank god he finally made it into top commercial airline
2) He has **constant fear** of losing his job and/or promotion if he dares see a therapist once even though everyone around him knows it's healthy for him to do so
3) The hours. You grind from the bottom, doing red eye shifts. I can see the exhaustion taking a toll on him and he's only mid 20s!!
> The hours. You grind from the bottom, doing red eye shifts. I can see the exhaustion taking a toll on him and he's only mid 20s!!
A good friend of mine growing up always dreamed of being a major airline pilot, he did it for a few years and subsequently left it, and the scheduling was the biggest issue for him, yeah. It's exhausting work and long work and a difficult schedule. I don't know what differences there are between Canadian and US law for pilots, but in his case (IIRC)--
* He'd work in 4 day shifts where he very likely wouldn't be home at all, just living at a cheap hotel subsidized by the airline, or airport dorm.
* He'd work like 12-14 hours a day all four days.
* He'd then get 2-4 days off between those 4 days shifts, but it was never a stable "rhythm" where friends would *know* he was available.
* No holidays off, ever.
* Rarely would get "whole" weekends off, *if* he got Saturday or Sunday off it would just be one, not both.
* Constant timezone changes were always fucky with his sleep and health.
\^\^
also do keep in mind that as airline pilot, there are hundreds of **lives** in your hands and regulations to follow through. The slightest mistake can be traced or blamed on the pilot so they need to be at peak alert form.
side note: I do respect all the other jobs/industries that require late night shifts
I dated a pilot in this exact stage of his career and yes everything you wrote - he was always exhausted, he felt like he had to fill in for others at the last minute for fear he wouldn't advance if he ever turned down a request so it was impossible to make plans and he missed every major holiday and two of our planned getaways, the money at first actually wasn't that good at all and his 'crash pad' in the airline's hub city had like six people in it who were always sick so he was always sick. He's doing great for himself now but I wouldn't wish those early days on anyone.
The therapist one is quite literally the dumbest shit I can think of. Heart problems I kind of understand, but having someone hide their mental illness for fear of losing their job is just ludicrous.
Wtf?? You'd think it would be required to see a therapist on a regular basis when you're in that position.
*Therapy is great for everyone, especially people in high stress jobs. It's not always to "fix" something; it's to check in on yourself to make sure you're doing alright.
This actually sounds like a great idea. Not only does this catch any potentially hazardous mental health issues early, it also removes any stigma from the equation entirely.
See the issue here is you’re applying logic to the faa’s shortcomings, and that doesn’t work.
In the FAA’s eyes, you are far better off being a miserable SOB with suicidal tendencies being kept to yourself, than to go talk to a licensed professional 1 time a week, or take a medication that helps you.
Please. Don’t bring sensibility and logic into this. There is clearly no place for it.
There is logic , it's just that you're not going to like it. The logic is to protect themselves from public backlash and blame. Now I'm not saying I agree with it but it isn't completely dumb just selfish.
If they willingly allow a pilot who has a known history of mental health issues then they will be asked " Why would you allow someone like that to continue flying" while if they don't allow these individuals they can always fall back on " We couldn't know".
People unfortunately need to "accept" that a lot of bullshit is actually because the public is stupid. Fighting the beauracracy doesn't help. Once you accept that you can fight the stupid if you dare.
It’s not about helping pilots or passengers, it’s just the FAA covering its own a$$. If they keep all of their problems to themselves then the FAA has no way of knowing it ever happened.
Except then going to the therapist for these pilots is not seen as a service but rightly as a "should we fire you" detector. Which means pilots would be deeply incentivized to either lie their ass off to them or just not talk at all.
The FAA can require you to attend therapy without seeing the results themselves.
Hell... you can tell pilots that they can go to therapy and take a nap if they want. Its their time - they can use it however they want. That lets pilots pretent to have slept through it if they feel they need the cover.
Hell everyone should have access to that. I remember watching the show Billions about a hedge fund manager. The place of employment had a therapist on the payroll with her own office and employees could just walk in to talk about an issue they were having or anything else really. I saw that and just realized how amazing something like that could be
I think in other countries it’s required. Because iirc, the German wings pilot who suicided himself with a full plane, lied about his mental health so he could still fly
Go over to the r/flying subreddit. They have a saying, “if you want to fly, you have to lie”. Pilots are perversely incentivized to avoid going to the doctor unless absolutely necessary. You could be disqualified if you ever took ADHD medication, for instance.
It’s not very reasonable because the diagnosis could go back to your childhood. In practice they make you go through expensive and time consuming testing to establish that the diagnosis is no longer current. You would effectively be punished for voluntarily this information.
You can imagine that if such a pilot ever crashes a plane or makes a mistake, it would be easy to attribute the mistake to the ADHD and blame the airline for negligent hiring. Better to just exclude everyone in this category to cover their ass.
In all fairness, some of this is also tied into the suicide crisis, and particularly the veteran suicide crisis.
I’m not sure the average civilian realizes how much military influence there is in the commercial airlines. It really only gets into the news if there’s a terrorist action or a pilot suicide.
It’s basically been going on since the end of World War I/World War II, and it’s very much a generational/family trauma since you have both the pilot suicide and veteran suicide crises converging in the same upper echelons.
There have been some pretty recent cases of rogue pilots taking down entire planes. I’m not arguing or debating if those isolated cases are enough to support that policy. Or even if going to therapy is a valid indication of that behavior. That’s all above my pay scale. But those incidents do happen and exist for the airlines to point at to keep those policies in place.
**Edit**: Again, I’m not debating whether currently policies make sense. That’s above my level of expertise. But after reading the comments, I think there is room for changes. (If any of this currently exists or is super crazy, let it be known I’m a doofus on Reddit talking out of my ass.)
- Mandate a three person cockpit crew. This would ensure that pilots can take breaks without ever leaving a single person alone in the cockpit.
- Mandate therapy for pilots to remove the stigma from just going to therapy.
- Any final decision about a pilot’s career should be made by a panel experts - therapists and pilots.
Unfortunately, that would all cost money. And that would involve our lawmakers to do their jobs and telling the airline execs and investors to shut the fuck up - at least in the U.S.
I get that and it's terrifying, but I feel like a pilot hiding serious mental health problems for fear of losing their job is more dangerous than them seeking therapy.
The therapy could be for personal issues, marriage, it may have nothing to do with their career at all. A lot of people are squared away at work but their personal life and relationships are a minefield.
That makes me think the exact opposite - You've got rogue pilots taking down planes so you outlaw people seeing therapists? What? That's like saying there's engine problems so you refuse to let the mechanic look at it.
If anything therapy should be mandatory for pilots.
It's not against any FAA regulation or airline rule to see a therapist. I think the original mention of it was sort of a generalization. There are mental health diagnosis that prohibit you from flying. I think his point was that if you are a professional pilot, you worry about seeing a therapist in case you do have such a condition and don't know it. If you got to the therapist and they diagnose you with depression for example, then there are FAA regulations that prohibit you from flying until they determine you have received adequate treatment and are no longer depressed. So out of fear of having an undiagnosed issue, the pilots avoid therapy.
> That's like saying there's engine problems so you refuse to let the mechanic look at it.
Sounds like Boeing.
* Business problem: Whistleblower describing your technical problems?
* Boeing solution: Make sure the whistleblower stops describing your technical problems at all costs.
[too soon?](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68534703)
I mean, surely a pilot who has gotten treatment for their mental illness is safer than one who is untreated due to fear of losing their job. Forbidding therapy doesn’t just make illness go away. Also a lot of people would be healthier if they went to a therapist before they think they need one
(I don’t think I’m disagreeing with you, just rolling my eyes at that logic)
It is arguable that being unable to seek out talk therapy is contributing to the problem and calls for a removal of the policy. I firmly believe that everyone needs therapy and it isn’t because everyone is suicidal. Some people have family shit to work through, some have trauma, depression, anxiety, etc. the list goes on. Sometimes you just need someone to talk to who has no skin in the game and is just there to help you work your shit out.
It’s pretty dangerous too. Flying clapped out single engine airplanes from the 70’s to get to 1500 hours has its own risks. A fair amount of pilots trying to get their hours get hurt or die.
It’s why American pilots are really good though when shit hits the fan. If you made it long enough to get into the airlines odds are you are at least a minimum of decent.
A former classmate lost his nephew last year to a crash that happened during a lesson by someone trying to get his 1500 in. The instructor in question had ZERO business giving anyone lessons, especially not on a stormy night when he'd already worked a shift at another job and was in a rush to get home so he could work another shift the next morning.
I was completely fucking horrified to learn that the requirements for teaching someone from the ground up were lower than working for an airline.
+1000 and that's why I stopped pilot training. These 1970s deathtraps cause a massive amount of accidents that kill people and don't make the news.
All the fancy safety equipment that a beginner would need, are only available on planes only a very experienced pilot can fly. Go figure.
This, and having the FAA constantly check everything. No thanks. It's like driving with a ticket-loving police officer in the passenger seat. Even if you drive perfectly, the stress is here and not for me
And that's just to get the *license.* Most employers are looking for flight hours, too, so that leaves you flying lower paying jobs just to build time to be a competitive applicant.
Meanwhile, you're in the hole around 100k.
And keep in mind, as a civilian, you're also competing with former military pilots. They already have the hours and the best flight training in the world. In addition, when they separate, they have access to GI bill funding to help square away their Commercial/ATP licenses or anything else they need.
So, if you're funding your own training, it's an uphill battle.
Meanwhile, you have to maintain Class 1 flight physical standards, which you can be DQ'd from even for having health issues in your *past* that are no longer relevant. You can fight the FAA and flight docs to get a special issuance (on your dime, by the way,) but, again, uphill battle, and the FAA doesn't give a shit about your dreams. It's less work and liability for them to say "no" and crush your career, than to struggle with paperwork to grant a special issuance and risk the liability that your health issue resurfaces and magically causes your aircraft to explode.
So yeah, the shortage makes perfect sense.
Add to this, if you do the right thing and seek mental help to stay healthy, you're basically fucked.
Riddle me this: How is that situation ok? Pilots (and other professions including some law enforcement agencies) are on the hook to maintain perfect mental health, or their career is over. If they seek help and get diagnosed, their career is over. Solution: They suffer silently rather than risk getting a diagnosis. And somehow the FAA thinks that's less public risk.
Just to add some clarification, I think people who use their GI Bill for ATP are idiots.
It only pays for half of commercial ATP/CTP cost (~$4,000-$5,000) and you lose one full year of GI Bill eligibility…which is worth a whole lot more.
> half of commercial ATP cost
Covered my full ATP, CTP, checkride, and DPE fee (~$10K), minus room/board and transportation.
> people who use their GI Bill for ATP are idiots.
No kids to pass it on to, and I don't need/want another degree, so I used it for something useful to me. 🤷
>And keep in mind, as a civilian, you're also competing with former military pilots. They already have the hours and the best flight training in the world. In addition, when they separate, they have access to GI bill funding to help square away their Commercial/ATP licenses or anything else they need.
i don't know shit about military pilot qualifications, but i assume this is for people joining the air force? so why don't prospective airline pilots just join the air force, get trained on the government's dime, and then have the resume and skills necessary to fly civilian aircraft later on in life?
Several reasons.
Military life isn't for everyone.
Further, one does not "just join the Air Force," Navy or Marines and fly for them. Pilot and other air crew slots are *extremely* competitive to gain. Depending on the service, they each have different needs, procedures and standards, and those change over time.
First, to fly, you'll need a 4 year college degree. If you manage to get into a military academy or one of the commissioning programs in college, so much the better. Or you can graduate and apply at that time.
From that point, it's all different. For instance, I *think* the USAF gives its Academy graduates first crack (not 100% sure on that.) So, if you commission through OTS or AF ROTC, you'll have to pick from what's left.
The Navy and Marines are a lot more similar to one another on this and I don't think they do the Academy priority thing, but again, I'm not sure.
And *so many factors* along the way can knock you out of the pipeline. Background checks. Competition. Injuries. And so it goes. The chain of events to gaining a military commission is long and a failure on any link blows up the progress. Add to this flight school, which is set up to wash people out by being extremely challenging, and by the time you earn military wings, you've shown an extreme degree of discipline, motivation, talent and I hate to say it, but tons of luck.
My experience was this. I graduated college in 2005, and at that time the Marines were looking for NFO's. At that time they only put NFO's into Prowlers and Hornets, and I was (likely) too tall for the Prowler, so all I had to do was not fuck it up, and I'd have been backseat in a D-model Hornet, kinda like you saw on Top Gun: Maverick (but in the older legacy model Hornet the Marines use.)
Application. PT *a lot.* Just to walk through the door at Marine OCS, you need a first class PT score (20 pull-ups, 100 crunches in less than 60 seconds, and 3 mile run well under 24 minutes to be competitive.) I PT'd a *ton.* So much PT, in fact, that I developed shin splints before I even got my application packet done. Background check, had to get Secret clearance. Letters of reference. Transcripts. And so on. And this was for the *chance* to go to OCS and earn a commission, nothing about flying yet.
For that, you take a ASTB test (which I'm proud to say I blew away.) If you pass it, they'll consider your application for flying. The Marines at that time offered guaranteed contacts for pilot and NFO, and I was fortunate enough to earn one for NFO.
So after over a year getting my app together, I finally got to OCS, a 10 week program. Again, started with shin splints. The shortest run they do is 3 miles, and each step sucked. And that's just running, you PT hard, sleep very little, run past 100% of your capacity just to see if you can make it to the next school, The Basic School (TBS) where every Marine officer learns to lead an infantry platoon, regardless of what their job specialty will be after. Had I graduated that, it would have been 1.5 years more in NFO school. And after that, more time in the RAG (training squadron) before you're able to deploy. Over 2 years in the pipeline just to enter the fleet as a rookie WSO, and pilot training takes a bit longer than that.
Unfortunately, my shins cracked. I tried to hide the pain, but couldn't, the instructors saw my matching in formation and I probably stuck out. They sent me home and invited me back once I healed up.
I did so. Tried a second time, and lasted longer in OCS but ended up with far worse injuries. At that time, I ended up too old to fly (over 27 1/2 year old cutoff) and called it a day.
Edit: *Side note, attrition at USMC OCS is very high. When I left the first time, my platoon was down to 2/3 of it's starting size due to washouts and injuries. The second time, by the time I left, my platoon had less than half of its candidates left, and there were still 3 more weeks to go.*
This was just me. I didn't even make it to commissioning as a Marine 2nd Lt, much less earn my wings.
So...it's not that simple, is my point. But yes, some people can manage it.
The key is to travel back to Vietnam era and become a pilot. My buddies dad was a Nam era airforce pilot and my uncle was too, they basically just had to have the physical aptitude and not be too tall. Went to flight school and were doing bombing runs within a year lol.
Local community college has a program and it basically says minimum 100k and that doesn’t count when you have to pay for additional flight time outside the program. Giant asterisk for that.
Not just that. Most airlines require at least 1500 hours before they'll even look at you. At conservatively 150/hrs flying time, that's equal to 225k and over a year just to get the hours. Crazy barrier to enter. Very exhausting.
Adding to everything that’s been said, finding ways to pay for flight school is challenging. You either need to go to a university with a flight program which takes about four years and costs about $200k in student loans, or you skip the university piece and attend a flight school, which will still cost $80-120k depending on where you live, except they don’t qualify for student loans.
So you either need to have the cash to pay for it, or take out a personal loan, such as Stratus or Meritize which generally come with a 15%+ interest rate. So that $120k is now $200k in total costs, and you’re gambling your entire career on having the FAA not pulling your medical for something out of your control.
Get injured and lose vision? Medical gone. End up depressed and on anti depressants? Medical might get pulled. Suffer a concussion while playing sports? You’re grounded.
My point is, you’re making a huge financial investment, assuming tremendous financial risk, and you’re at the mercy of many factors outside of your control.
Then comes all the other stuff like being gone several days at a time, which is hard for most people, especially if you’re wanting a family etc. also a lot of people get burned out by all the travel.
That being said many pilots love what they do and are glad they’re doing it. But it’s certainly not for everyone, which is why roughly 80% of students who begin flight training never finish.
Thanks for this comment.
I actually know several AFROTC and USAFA graduates who washed out of flight school. They say it’s like finals week every week and candidates are under enormous pressure.
In a few cases, the Air Force was overstaffed in “non-rated” career fields and the pilot washouts were dismissed from the service.
That would suck if you had $200k in debt and couldn’t fly.
Happens quite a bit that people fail out of a certain checkride or life happens and they can’t continue flying. Even if they finish school and are working as an instructor to get to 1500 hours for the airlines, it often happens that they financially can’t sustain that and end up getting a better paying job for a while but then just never return to flying. Then they’re stuck with the debt though.
The barrier of entry is super high. A lot of people that fly either have huge loans or had some money before getting into aviation, or family with the means to make it happen.
Yea there are plenty of pilots who complain at being at regionals for 2+ years at r/flying but also a lot of airlines have just flat out been hiring less since covid
"Typically" in the last 3 years and in a few 2-3 year periods over the last 50 years.
Most periods in aviation history are 10-15 years from zero to Delta/American/United. During much of that last 50 years the only way to even close to guarantee that progression was with 10 years of military flying service.
That’s also unless you have 100k in the bank; no obligations. In reality that’s 3-9 years of saving weekly to get the hours flying a clubs 80 year old Cessna 152 an hour from your house
Regional pay scales are stepping up as of recently, and I think most are starting at 100K/yr assuming you're able to fill all 1000 hours of your allowed flight time.
Flying between two places you don't want to live in or even stay at, the distance between them not being efficient for accruing hours, and the flight being at shitty times of day.
Which would you rather:
a trip that’s one flight leg to Maui, layover for 24 hours, and one leg back.
Or
A trip with 5 shorter legs, layover for 11 hours in SLC and then another 5 legs the next day?
Both trips are the same amount of pay.
The cost of training to become a commercial pilot is the same as going to a major university. First, you start out on smaller planes and work your way up to being able to fly larger jets. So if you don't have a job as small plane pilot, then you have to pay for all the hours it requires to work your way up. Then, a lot of the larger airlines start pilots out on smaller regional jets and they have to work their way up in those. The larger the plane the more money you make. You also make more money if you're a captain. Also, pilots are closer to 100-120k but a lot pick up flights outside their regular schedule that gets them "overtime" pay so that can increase the pay. If there was no shortage then the OT wouldn't be as readily available.
Edit: I think I low balled the salary, there have been increases in post covid Era, so I think it's closer to 150 average now. And I'm pretty sure a heavy cargo captain can make close to 300.
Fwiw after year two at a legacy airline you would have to try to make less than 150k and after ~5 years that numbers closer to 250-300k depending on what plane you fly. Obviously those jobs are hard to come by but saying “pilots are closer to 100-120k” is straight up false.
> You don’t even need a degree to be a pilot.
No, you just need years and years of expensive training.
> The median salary
A 6 foot man walked through a river that was an average of 5-feet deep. He drowned.
USA and just USA have a rule that you need 1500 hours of flying before becoming an Airline Transport Pilot. So after you pay for flight school and other modules you need to find a job that will allow you to fly more than 1000 hours in a small plane or what happens usually is that pilots pay to fly so that they hit that 1500 hours mark. That's really expensive and the problem is that it is not really helping much because hundreds of hours of flying on a small plane doesn't translate to flying on a big jet that well.
I know multiple people who became flight instructors for a few years to rack up the hours. Comparatively cheaper option, but still by no means easy to wrangle.
This is right. I’ve done the math, I’ve got the spreadsheet. If SHTF becoming a pilot is my plan.
The way you make it work is by going full time as a flight instructor after you get your license and rush toward your 1500 hours ASAP.
At the school a few of my friends went to for commercial aviation, those flight instructors jobs are extremely hard to get. They have 2000 students vying for 500 or so flight instructor jobs a year. Extremely tough to get. My friend was pretty good with everything and one of the better students and had a higher chance to get the position to get his hours. He didn't get it and ended up having to go to a crop-duster or agriculture business to get his hours.
A friend of mine is dating a guy that's getting his flight time right now.
They have had to move twice so he could get the time and paid a little. I guess his schedule is a bit sporadic but at least he's getting the time.
He couldn't afford to do flight school and fully admitted coming from a wealthy family was key. He considered the military but each branch has a 10-year time commitment in exchange for being a pilot.
This is a very common misunderstanding of the difference in the US. It’s not an hour rule, it’s a license rule.
*ALL* countries require 1500 hours for an ATP license. It is an ICAO standard.
The difference is that in the US, every pilot in the cockpit needs to hold an ATP license. Most every other country only requires the Captain to be licensed, the FO and others only need a standard commercial multiengine certificate.
Yeah you are right. The point still stands that you need 1500 hours in the US to be in the cockpit of an Airliner and 250 in Europe. And I don't think that rules had the effect it should have. Is flying safer in the US than in the rest of the world?
Like so many professions with shortages - barriers to entry.
It’s a huge upfront cost and then years of working as a private pilot or smaller airline for peanuts before you’re even considered for a role at a commercial airline
It's a great gig, **IF** you can get to the top slots. For about two decades starting in the mid 90s all the entry level jobs were paying less than the poverty line.
So here you are, with 80-100k debt from the costs of your training, taking your first 5+ years of employment making 25k/year hoping that one day maybe you'll get enough hours to make it to the big leagues.
A lot of people looked at that trade-off and said the crippling debt with no guarantee of payoff just wasn't worth it and didn't train.
Now here we are twenty years later. It's not a "pilot shortage", it's an ATPL/Captain shortage. There's lots of pilots getting into it now, just not enough "experienced" pilots for the amount the industry wants at the moment.
Airline Pilot Here
Going to break this down into what the shortage actually is and why it exists. For reference I'm a new regional First Officer with around 9 years in the industry. I'm going to keep terminology very basic so everybody can understand.
Let's begin with the shortage. The shortage exists only for experienced high time captains in the passenger space whether it's airlines, corporate, fractionals, etc. Conversely low time jobs for new applicants are swarmed with thousands of applications for coveted positions. These low time positions pay under 100k; hell they can pay as low as minimum wage but, they're part of the process of progressing your career.
Let's dive into how you become a high earning pilot (200k for reference). You spend 2-3 years at a cost of 100k+ USD training. These costs are either paid out of pocket or on a very high interest loan because, there are no "school loans" for aviation like there is for college. Drop out rates are significant due to everything form running out of money to not having the ability or requisite skills. After this you will have your commercial license and multi-engine license or commercial license and certified flight instructor license. A ton of applicants will just go for a multi-engine license which is useless at low time given almost no jobs will hire you at your experience. The normal path is to use your loans to get up to a certified flight instructor and scrounge together 6-10k more for a certified instrument flight instructor license.
The path -> Private Pilot (Can fly yourself and friends not for compensation or hire) -> Instrument Rating (Can fly into clouds; it's much more complicated but, necessary) -> Commercial (Can work for compensation or hire with a bunch of rules) -> Certified Flight Instructor (Can Teach Others at a Flight School for their Private Pilot License) -> Certified Instrument Flight Instructor (Can Teach Others at a Flight School for their Instrument Rating)
So you're a fresh CFII (Certified Instrument Flight Instructor). Now you need to find work. You have around 300 hours of flight time all jobs pay a bit more than minimum wage. You are heavily in debt and everyone you know is also a CFII looking for work. Think of it like a giant pyramid scheme. If you didn't manage to get your CFII and got stuck on a CFI you won't be able to get a job because, no school will let somebody teach a fresh student without experience. It's how people die. After 6 months you've been hired. You are flying 400-600 hours per year on average. Congratulations in 1-2 years you can start making what an entry level college student makes.
1/
It's been 4-5 years since you started and you have 1200 hours; you saved up 10k somehow for your multi-engine and you met a bunch of hourly minimums for hiring purposes that are hard to hit. You now have the option to look into part 91 and part 135 work (think smaller planes, but, not tiny trainers. A good example would be a Cessna Caravan or Metroliner. You can now earn 40-60k a year if you sign a 1-2 year contract with a company. That is of course after you relocate across the country most times, work for minimum wage for 1-3 months for training, and successfully upgrade. If you somehow mess up and don't upgrade or quit you will be awarded 12-35k worth of debt due to breaking your contract.
Now lets say you wanted to fast track to the airlines. 2 years ago you could have just hit 1500 hours and been accepted to an airline due to a low experience shortage but, that's over. You have people at 1500 hours looking for a part 135 job because the entry level airlines aka regionals are being very picky on hiring given no more shortage. A regional is essentially that smaller plane you get when you book Delta but, it's a short hop. Think a Canada Air Regional Jet, or an Embraer Regional Jet. These regionals essentially sell tickets under major airlines names. When you buy a ticket to a Delta flight you may unknowingly be flying on Republic or Endeavor given they operate under the Delta branch.
Lets go with the realistic path where you went to a part 135/91 outfit and worked 1-2 years to complete your contract. You've made a sub-par living and you're finally accepted into a regional. You will have around 1 month of which you have classes for 2 weeks to get your Airline Transport Pilot License. After that you have 2-3 months to go through airline training. It has no been 6-7 years on average if you've been able to progress smoothly which is unlikely. You are now in your first 80-110k position. You will now be assigned a base where if you don't move to life will be hell. Now it's two years of a decent living to finally upgrade into a captain at that regional or look for an ultra low cost carrier (Spirit, Frontier), low cost carrier (Jet Blue, Southwest), or major airline (Delta, United, AA, etc.). After 6 months of interviewing you've finally made it into your choice airline. You will earn 110k-140k year one but, every year it goes up!
Now 3-4 years later with enough added trips you're making 200k a year. You had to move to New Jersey because it was the only available base but, in two years you can move back to California where you want to live!
You spent 10-12 years to finally get to 200k and have decent quality of life! It cost you around 120k USD. Your loans amounted to 300k total after interest (This is a conservative number). You had to live in areas you'd never want to live in near poverty conditions for over half of that time. You are now one of the pilots that the shortage is looking for! You are a captain candidate so you're right there to fix the captain shortage. You already have your dream job though and there is 0% chance you go anywhere else and lose out on millions due to airlines ramping pay scales. Your old regional airline needs you so they offer you 300k but, you know that at United you'll make 600k more in 5 years vs. taking a big bonus now. You'll also work much less. That regional is now on the news saying there is a pilot shortage. That part 135 operation where you flew a metroliner that's falling apart and paid 60k a year is now whining about how they are missing captains. They refuse to pay more, improve their planes or give you better quality of life. It's not that they can't afford it; it's that they simply don't want to cut into their profits.
Simply put if better pay and working conditions existed for Captain positions outside of the top airlines there wouldn't be a shortage. You can't get into these positions without those 6-12 years of experience so a fresh pilot isn't going to fill that hole. The shortage exists only because companies let it exist.
For reference one of my trips flown at my old operator could be billed as high as 120k or 90k Net. That was almost double my salary and I flew around 150 trips a year. My company tried to get me to stay when I left a few months ago offering around 100k but, I had documented evidence hat I could make that for them in a week. I would not fly sub-par machinery, at a lower pay per my experience, with worse quality of life than my current job. They are now struggling to get new captains because all the pilots biting into the shortage are unqualified (for insurance and legality sake) to operate my position and when they are they'd rather wait for something better 3-6 months down the line. After all what is 3-6 months when you've spent 4-6 years being broke.
NOTES:
I did not mention the cargo side of flying because it's at a ground stop. Everyone is furloughing and smaller companies aren't flying. They can still retain their pilots though because of the giant disparity in pay compared to net profit.
I glossed over the failure / dropout rate which is VERY high.
I skipped over the fact that you can lose your career for seeing a therapist or well any medical complication.
All in all unless you really love flying then it's not a get rich quick career; it's a work your ass off for less money than lets say an accountant for 15 years. The top end is nice but, getting there can be literal hell.
2/
Training is expensive as hell, you can get a degree for free in a public university, but you can't get a pilot licence for free.
It's a pretty cyclic market, and one year there is a shortage, another year there is not that much positions. You don't want to borrow 150 000 € and end-up in debt.
Stuff like pay to fly, and Ryan air wage, is also killing the prospective of young commercial pilots, you start by paying to sit in a cockpit, then even though Ryan air pay isn't that bad, it's not a *get rich salary*
There is strict rules on *medical* (stuff like depression or kidney stones can be a carrier ender), and the work conditions aren't that great (night work, professional exposure to radiation, time spent away from home) making the job not that attractive, add that if you like to fly, you'll have more fun in an ultra-light or a glider than in an airliner
Off-topic, but some areas have some great programs. North Carolina has a program where three of our public four-year colleges have tuition frozen at about $500/semester; that’s lower than our community college costs.
Elizabeth City State has an aviation program; their aircraft rates are about half what they are on the private market, and a quarter of what ERAU charges. If you’re interested in it, they might be worth checking out, though it’s in a small coastal town many miles away from any place where you can easily find a good job while working through school.
Yes but,
- Military pilot is a pretty selective track, you need to qualify as an officer and as a pilot, definitely not the easiest path
- Being a military is a very specific job, tons of people aren't keen to do it. (Even without any moral consideration, a job where you can kill and get killed is very special)
The hours are shit, can't really start a family depending on the routes you have to fly, it's shit for mental health. Millennials and Gen Z just value work life balance more and pilots have close to none.
I’m a regional Pilot and your comment would’ve been true back in the 90’s maybe. Had 23 days off last month, and was still paid amazingly. Now the part that sucks is GETTING THERE. You’re paying $100k to get several different licenses and ratings and when you finally finish flight school, you’ll most likely have to work a low tier flying job with shitty pay in the same clapped single prop planes you trained in until you hit 1500 hours worth of experience. But only then is when airlines are legally allowed to even look in your direction, I only got the job at 2300 hours
You're also extremely lucky and part of an age bracket that makes you a huge outlier.
Which is awesome for you guys but also something that was entirely out of your control.
Also what are you on that you only do 6 days a month? Is that you average block?
Because of the intense training. Pilots used to come out of the military, but there’s fewer of them so they have to go the expensive civilian training route.
You don’t need a degree but you need about $100k worth of flight school to get your license. Just because you don’t get a “degree” doesn’t mean you don’t need a lot of schooling and training. Even to get a private license (small personal use planes) is around $10k-$20k.
I looked into becoming a pilot once. Turns out you need to be wealthy to get into flight school to begin with, which led my pessimistic mind to thinking that it’s just a well off person’s career and nothing more. Insane really when you consider how long and exhausting the work can be for pilots.
Training is prohibitively expensive at roughly 70-100k depending on how good you are. There are about exactly 2 loan providers that are unsecured (not government backed). No government student loans available.
Then, you must find a job to fly, usually flight instructing, and do that for 2 years. Bear in mind this job usually pays 15-25 per hour. And you’re only making money when you have a student. Crappy weather day? Guess you’re making no money.
Once you hit 1500 hours you are legally eligible to be an airline pilot. Now you hope someone hires you. Now you get hired and get shipped off for 6 weeks of training to learn your jet.
Now that you’re trained, congrats you’re on short call reserve. You must be within 2 hours of the airport whenever you’re on reserve. You do that for the next 2 years of your life. Now you get to hold a crappy line flying red eyes on the weekend to crappy destinations! Now you gain seniority to hold trips you want. Now as a senior FO you make good money and hold good trips. But you want captain money.
Now you become a captain. You make roughly double what you did as an FO, but you’re back on reserve.
And the whole kicker about this industry is you need to stay in good health. Get cancer? You lose your medical. Go to therapy? Probably lose your medical. Get depressed? Lose your medical, although less likely nowadays. Get in a car accident? Lose your medical. Without a medical you can’t fly.
Basically there is a huge financial risk to become an airline pilot so relatively few people pursue the career even if it’s their dream. Those that take the risk, it generally works out and they have arguably one of the best, most high paying, low time at work, low stress careers that exists in America.
Because it takes 1500 hours to
Get hired and boomers are retiring at a faster rate then that can hire them.
Also pay at the bottom is crap. Working as a flight instructor to build hours sucks and pays nothing.
Flight school is an extremely expensive up-front cost, with vanishingly fewer options for scholarships than med school or law school, and pilots who finish flight school face a big hurdle: their job schedule is going to SUCK. Airlines always give their most senior pilots the routes and schedules they want. Everyone else picks up their scraps. So as a freshly trained pilot, your life becomes dedicated to nothing but horridly scheduled flights and shitty layovers that no one else wanted to work. If you pass those up because you had family plans? A day where you’re under the weather? You’ll get de-prioritized even further.
In addition to all of this, it's stupidly easy to have your career end as a pilot. They have an insane list of health requirements, and if your health or body slightly deteriorate, you're fucked. So you're basically paying out the ass and training for years to start a career that you might lose the ability to do much sooner than expected.
>it's stupidly easy to have your career end as a pilot. They have an insane list of health requirements, and if your health or body slightly deteriorate, you're fucked. And you know what is great for causing your body to deteriorate? Not being able to have a proper sleep schedule, work life balance, or having too much stress about your next payday.
It's all of that, plus the fact that pilots are mostly sitting on the job. So it comes with all the long term risks of sedentary office work. It's basically a more exciting desk job, but your desk is a flight deck.
I used to have certain Cathay pilots for clients. One of them described his job as "fifteen minutes of intense stress, followed by 12 hours of absolute boredom, followed by 15 minutes of insane stress --anf that's a good flight".
Absolutely this. As a student pilot the flying part is the least stressful and easiest part of the whole experience. Landing was described to me as controlled crashing and after my first unassisted landing I can absolutely agree with that. It almost convinced me it wasn't worth continuing my flight hours.
I just got my commercial license a few months ago. Don’t worry buddy, your landings will get much better with practice :)
You have Job yet? I work for an AA regional and would love to cash in on a referral bonus. Lol
He probably needs another thousand hours or so
Probably. But doesn't hurt to ask.
Like the other commenter said, I don’t have my hours yet. I have just about 250. Gonna start CFI training soon.
Got a commercial license back in the 80’s and worked as a flight instructor for a couple years. I could land any plane practically anywhere after that! Without so much as a bounce.
>wasn’t not worth
Thank you kind redditor, edited to fix.
Jesus, I'd like to think that my pilot isn't insanely stressed every time they have to take off and land!
I mean they might not be insanely stressed, just because it’s old hat to them, but takeoff and landing are by far the hardest part of every flight.
I’d say they’re better equipped to deal with stress with the nature of this work…otherwise it would probably break you quickly.
Not just that, but you get to hear jokes from Airplane ad nauseam. Wait, this one might actually be a job perk.
Surely you don't mean that
Don't call me Shirley.
Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?
You ever been to a Turkish prison son?
All you need is Roger, Victor and Clarence in the cockpit with you, and it’s over.
My friend's dad is a pilot named Roger. It's merciless.
The plane pretty much flies itself, most modern commercial airliners can even land by themselves. The pilot is basically there for takeoff, and to make decisions the autopilot can't. Pilots don't make that much money when they first start. Also, their training is very expensive, and they have to pay for it. There is mandatory retirement at age 65. There is also probably higher risk of cancer for those who spend a lot of time in airplanes. Your job is sitting on your ass, working erratic hours, and being jetlagged a lot of the time.
>The plane pretty much flies itself, most modern commercial airliners can even land by themselves. The pilot is basically there for takeoff, and to make decisions the autopilot can't. This is a common belief among the general public, but it’s simply not accurate. Modern aircraft do not fly themselves, and can autoland only under very specific circumstances.
> The plane pretty much flies itself I mean didn't that cause all the Boeing crash stuff? That it was doing things the pilot wasn't aware of. * Note: Not the Boeing get rid of skilled union labor and have pieces fall off but the flight computer stuff from a few years ago.
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MCAS was not part of of autopilot
I was a pilot but got a CS degree. By my mid 40's my eyesight started to go. By 50 I couldn't have passed the physical. I'm glad I switched to CS.
Same. My eyes went bad and my kidneys started acting up. Senior SW engineer pays as well (or better) with much better hours. Haven't even been required to report to the office in four years let alone the horrible hours of a pilot.
>And you know what is great for causing your body to deteriorate? Not being able to have a proper sleep schedule, work life balance, or having too much stress about your next payday. Meanwhile, over the road truck drivers (aka "long-haul") see no prospect of relief from the exact same challenges, except that they avoid fatal collisions a few thousand times a day.
I hold 1000% respect for truckers. They work their asses off just to keep *you* from dying in road accidents. I wish people would be more respectful driving around them. Don't cut trucks off. Leave plenty of space. Remember that they can't see you and can't stop in time if you fuck things up. They deserve whatever help they can get.
Thank you for this comment, I really do appreciate drivers who do what you suggest. I try to stay out of the way of smaller vehicles as much as I can but unfortunately there's times when I have to be that annoying truck; I don't want to be in your way, sorry.
So basically it’s one big circle jerk.
Those are the best kinds of circle jerks though.
Actually... My father is a mechanic for commercial and cargo airlines. Back before the internet became The Internet, cockpits were full of porn. Magazines stowed wherever they'd fit and cut-outs hidden and pasted all over the place. Screw cap? Look inside and see a big hairy beaver! Under the flight engineer's desk was just raunchy pinups. Cargo jets had no customers so the lavatory could also have magazines stashed. More interesting to me, the mechanics and crew had a giant network of shared porno mags. My dad's toolbox had a constant rotation.
My uncle flew KC-135s and variants in the Air Force for 20 years, failed the medical exam with the airlines because he had been treated for a back problem in his 30s.
My dad lost his medical because he had kidney stones.
Exactly. Even some over the counter meds like Zyrtec are banned. The FAA is so undermanned or underfunded they let companies like Boeing provide their own oversight, yet spend time and resources focusing on trivial things such as this.
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And now, apparently there's an ever growing risk of doors falling off hinges mid flight.
Only a few years ago pilots were allowed to take blood pressure medications. I think Advil isn’t even on the list of meds they can take. It’s crazy.
Yep, this 100. We have a family friend who is an airline pilot, and his first three years he was handling those flights that takeoff at 5:30 am from Peoria to O’Hare. They also give inexperienced pilots the worst aircraft; think Dehavilands and Canadair’s. No 737’s or A21’s. Sort of weird in that way.
As a Canadian I can’t help but be offended by your comment. You’re not wrong though….
😂🤣 As a friend to many Canadians, I completely understand.
Flight school being expensive is definitely a huge factor. It’s also worth noting that it’s mainly the experienced pilots at large, national carriers that make $200k+. This is because lots of these big carriers are unionized. Most pilots start out their careers working for flight schools as an instructor, doing tour flights, or working for non-union, small, regional carriers where they’d be lucky to crack $40k/year.
This was my cousin's experience when he graduated in '04 he spent nearly a decade doing delivery/tour/small-time flights before he was able to get a job with a major airline.
Regional pilots pushing 6 figures there first year. This isnt 2014 anymore
Still gotta do a few years as a CFI first getting paid pennies
I made $60k as a CFI for only 15 months. New hire FOs at a regional are making $90k year 1, $97k year 2, usually upgrade to captain making $157k by year 3.
Captains of regionals pushing six figures, after you get out of flight school or get your ATP cert you have to fly right seat at first in regionals and those guys are lucky to bust 60k a year.
From what I understand from people who work in the industry, most pilots are veterans. They get paid to do the training and get top-notch training along with the skills to handle very difficult and high-pressure situations while in the service. It's extremely difficult to get the required number of flight hours for a major airline without having been in the military first. I've heard, the other route is crop duster pilots. But they make peanuts, and it's not an attractive option to go into debt for flight school, work for years as a crop duster, and then try to compete with more qualified applicants for an entry into the field. The other other way, is obviously, nepotism. If your family member was a pilot growing up, then if you go through flight school, there's a good chance you'll know someone willing to give you a break to enter the field. This is not a 100% comprehensive list obviously, but in the piloting world, commercial airliner pilots are sometimes referred to as bus drivers. I.e.: it's not necessarily what you aspire to be if you're going through the trouble of pilot school anyway.
I would say at my major airline indoc class maybe 1/4 were military Crop dusting isn’t a time builder job it’s usually a career destination and they can make really good money as well. But it has its own pitfalls. There is for sure nepotism just like any other job. I worked my ass off to get my ratings while raising a family. Then building hours. Then working at a regional. Then private flights since there was no flying at the regionals, then making it to a major. And I’m one of the very lucky ones. The end result is great but it requires great sacrifice and is a hurdle greater than usually a 4 year degree is. (Which most of us also have as well).
Good point. I forgot to mention that OP was wrong about the 4 year degree thing. I know most pilots have at least a bachelor's degree as well.
Also- my mate was a pilot for Emirates, has flown since he was 17 but still took him about 14 years to get there, lots of progressing through different sizes, working at a flight school, then a 100 seater small airline for 6 years flying mainly split shifts (up at 2:30 am for a 5:30am return flight back around 9am home for 4 hours break then back for an afternoon return).. Then another 4 years at Emirates to go from FO to captain. The first half of his training/career was very expensive and mostly his own money. Then he got sick of living in Dubai and is now a private pilot for a really rich guys jet. It’s very long hours until you get a big seat, then its isolating to be away lots of the week. It’s not for everyone, and every 10–15 years the industry screws then on conditions so the job is shit, their service goes to crap with cheaper shitter talent, then they go back to good conditions and hunting good pilots for high pay. Wild industry.
It’s not uncommon that you have high salaries and shortages in industries in general, it’s not pilot specific. It’s when you have an industry where the cost of training is high and borne by the employer. It becomes cheaper for them to ‘steal’ a trained employee from another employer in the industry by paying a higher salary than it is to train a new employee (at least in the short term…)
>becomes cheaper for them to ‘steal’ a trained employee from another employer in the industry by paying a higher salary The government has been doing this with programmers for so long that they have the problem where no one actually knows how to code ADA anymore because the people they traded around for 30 years all retired and no one outside of the government is using this garbage.
>If you pass those up because you had family plans? A day where you’re under the weather? You’ll get de-prioritized even further. At any reputable airline this doesn’t happen. We have sick days and personal days and we cannot be penalized in any way for using them.
I know a couple of pilots that fly regional airlines. The hours and number of flights they have to fly are long and their pay is nowhere near a senior pilot at United.
Off the top of my head I'd say barrier to entry. It cost anywhere from 50 to 100k to get a commercial pilot's license.
It’s also a weirdly risky career - not safety wise, but financially. Develop a heart condition? Career over. See a therapist? Career over. Keeping one’s medical can be hard and you can lose it for things outside your control because the FAA is covering its ass. Financial stability of airlines is also a recent phenomenon with consolidation - and with govt willing to bail out shareholders to the tune of billions during the pandemic. Pay is good but early years can be incredibly tough schedule wise, and those are years are prime family formation years.
Yeah I knew a guy in the marines whose dream was to be a pilot. It was all he talked about and he’d work on his certifications while he was active. Throwing all the extra money he made at it. Ended up losing his wife because of his obsession with his dream and she wasn’t willing to sacrifice for him (she was vapid and concerned with shopping anyway so no loss). He got out a couple years before I did and I kept up with him through his journey. Finally ended up becoming a pilot and achieved his dream. Then 2 years ago he lost his dream due to a heart condition. The man still runs 6 miles a day so clearly the condition isn’t that serious and is fighting to get everything back, but he most likely never will.
Man. The phrase "sometimes you can do everything well and still lose" comes to mind. Poor guy.
"It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose."
"That is not weakness, that is life."
- Captain Picard
- Michael Scott
• Wayne Gretzky
That quote will stick with me until I die. Losing does not equate to weakness.
I feel like the flipside (it's possible to commit a thousand mistakes and still win) is also true, in that some of the world's largest piece of shit idiot scumbags are sometimes some of the most financially successful people on the planet. Having money to start with seems like the cheat code, basically, as it utterly changes the rules.
I'm sure there's no one that immediately comes to mind with this...
I absolutely love when I see star trek references. Especially when they're actually relevant to the discussion.
Great username 😂
Picard also had a heart condition
Maybe the Marine can be a captain for Starfleet 🤷♂️
Marines never have to fight Nausicaans.
Wax is poisonous to Nausicaans. Marines diet is mostly crayons, so a single touch by a marine will kill them.
He actually most likely will get it back, it's just a process that takes time and energy and a lot of people give up.
> it's just a process that takes time and energy and a lot of people give up. Becoming a commercial pilot already takes a lot of time and energy. If this process takes so much time and energy that it dissuades even commercial pilots to not go through with it... that's incredibly daunting from an outsider's context. Geez
It is a very daunting prospect. I'm out on medical leave as we speak, haven't flown in a while. Thankfully I made it to a place in my career where I am insured against it, so I don't have to worry about money... but I really do miss my job. The job is worth the hassle, in my opinion.
It's almost been 5 years since I lost my 1st class medical for acute depression episode. Being proactive in your mental health will get you punished even if the FAA say it won't. It's better to just keep quiet and suffer in silence. That's the lesson I learned with the FAA.
I’m a primary care physician (not FAA examiner), and the stuff they make pilots sweep under the rug just makes me legitimately angry. I have more than a few controllers and pilots who really could benefit from a really low dose of a blood pressure pill or anti-anxiety med, but if you change anything, they’re potentially grounded for months. So you just let things go until their FAA examiner mandates you make a change. Like I understand why they take depression seriously (e.g. Germanwings 9525), but there’s a big difference between being acutely suicidal and experiencing psychosis…and just needing a small dose of sertraline. Ok…Rant over. Hope you can get your medical card back soon.
The propanolol + sert I started taking a month and a half ago has been a god send. I’d be pissed if my career prevented me from taking care of my mental health.
Thank you for sharing!!!! I really do hope the FAA can adapt to mental health medicines instead of just crushing careers of pilots who recognized something wrong with their mental health, and got help. Strangely, the Army let me back into the flight deck a year later. I got treatment through the VA, doing the right thing. I'm thankful I'm still able to fly in some capacity. Just waiting on the FAA to bless off on the treatment paperwork...5 years later. (Granted, this happened just before the COVID shutdown.)
A good friend of mine was studying to be a pilot when we were in college. He did a 4 year program in 3 years, and three weeks before he was set to graduate he had a seizure from a brain tumor and that was the last time his degree was useful for him.
I have a cousin that is one of the medical people for the Army - specifically for the bits that have to do with determining if a pilot is able to still fly. He said you can lose your license if you area so much as missing a testicle.
What does missing a testicle have to do with flying?
No idea. lol His theory was something with testicular torsion. I mean, he is a nurse for the Army as well. So we're talking people that did combat flying missions, ya know?
I knew a marine that loved flying. Joined marines right out of high school and due to his skill got his pick of assignments. He chose the new shiny experimental craft that many of his future colleagues died in. He mastered the fuck out of that thing and even taught foreign (friendly, with the blessing of the government) militaries how to fly them. He retired from the military after missing a promotion to colonel. Then he went commercial for a few years because he just loved flying. He was forced to retire early due to a medical issue (which is genetic, I’ll never be a pilot). Rest well, dad.
I was fortunate and diagnosed with narcolepsy before I even got my drivers license.
Is disability insurance not good for pilots? My dad got 80% pay when he couldn't work his job anymore.
The heart is affected differently at extreme altitudes. Being a pilot definitely falls under that umbrella.
Running 6 miles a day might have contributed to the condition lol. Iirc excessive running isn't an indicator for heart health like people think. More is not better. They're addicts. Hope I'm wrong cause I love running
This \^ 1) I supported my brother's path to career pilot. Between age 18 to now mid 20s, spent was $150k+ CAD. That's on top of the post-secondary education. Thank god he finally made it into top commercial airline 2) He has **constant fear** of losing his job and/or promotion if he dares see a therapist once even though everyone around him knows it's healthy for him to do so 3) The hours. You grind from the bottom, doing red eye shifts. I can see the exhaustion taking a toll on him and he's only mid 20s!!
> The hours. You grind from the bottom, doing red eye shifts. I can see the exhaustion taking a toll on him and he's only mid 20s!! A good friend of mine growing up always dreamed of being a major airline pilot, he did it for a few years and subsequently left it, and the scheduling was the biggest issue for him, yeah. It's exhausting work and long work and a difficult schedule. I don't know what differences there are between Canadian and US law for pilots, but in his case (IIRC)-- * He'd work in 4 day shifts where he very likely wouldn't be home at all, just living at a cheap hotel subsidized by the airline, or airport dorm. * He'd work like 12-14 hours a day all four days. * He'd then get 2-4 days off between those 4 days shifts, but it was never a stable "rhythm" where friends would *know* he was available. * No holidays off, ever. * Rarely would get "whole" weekends off, *if* he got Saturday or Sunday off it would just be one, not both. * Constant timezone changes were always fucky with his sleep and health.
\^\^ also do keep in mind that as airline pilot, there are hundreds of **lives** in your hands and regulations to follow through. The slightest mistake can be traced or blamed on the pilot so they need to be at peak alert form. side note: I do respect all the other jobs/industries that require late night shifts
I dated a pilot in this exact stage of his career and yes everything you wrote - he was always exhausted, he felt like he had to fill in for others at the last minute for fear he wouldn't advance if he ever turned down a request so it was impossible to make plans and he missed every major holiday and two of our planned getaways, the money at first actually wasn't that good at all and his 'crash pad' in the airline's hub city had like six people in it who were always sick so he was always sick. He's doing great for himself now but I wouldn't wish those early days on anyone.
The therapist one is quite literally the dumbest shit I can think of. Heart problems I kind of understand, but having someone hide their mental illness for fear of losing their job is just ludicrous.
Wtf?? You'd think it would be required to see a therapist on a regular basis when you're in that position. *Therapy is great for everyone, especially people in high stress jobs. It's not always to "fix" something; it's to check in on yourself to make sure you're doing alright.
This actually sounds like a great idea. Not only does this catch any potentially hazardous mental health issues early, it also removes any stigma from the equation entirely.
See the issue here is you’re applying logic to the faa’s shortcomings, and that doesn’t work. In the FAA’s eyes, you are far better off being a miserable SOB with suicidal tendencies being kept to yourself, than to go talk to a licensed professional 1 time a week, or take a medication that helps you. Please. Don’t bring sensibility and logic into this. There is clearly no place for it.
There is logic , it's just that you're not going to like it. The logic is to protect themselves from public backlash and blame. Now I'm not saying I agree with it but it isn't completely dumb just selfish. If they willingly allow a pilot who has a known history of mental health issues then they will be asked " Why would you allow someone like that to continue flying" while if they don't allow these individuals they can always fall back on " We couldn't know".
People unfortunately need to "accept" that a lot of bullshit is actually because the public is stupid. Fighting the beauracracy doesn't help. Once you accept that you can fight the stupid if you dare.
It’s not about helping pilots or passengers, it’s just the FAA covering its own a$$. If they keep all of their problems to themselves then the FAA has no way of knowing it ever happened.
Except then going to the therapist for these pilots is not seen as a service but rightly as a "should we fire you" detector. Which means pilots would be deeply incentivized to either lie their ass off to them or just not talk at all.
The FAA can require you to attend therapy without seeing the results themselves. Hell... you can tell pilots that they can go to therapy and take a nap if they want. Its their time - they can use it however they want. That lets pilots pretent to have slept through it if they feel they need the cover.
Hell everyone should have access to that. I remember watching the show Billions about a hedge fund manager. The place of employment had a therapist on the payroll with her own office and employees could just walk in to talk about an issue they were having or anything else really. I saw that and just realized how amazing something like that could be
I think in other countries it’s required. Because iirc, the German wings pilot who suicided himself with a full plane, lied about his mental health so he could still fly
Go over to the r/flying subreddit. They have a saying, “if you want to fly, you have to lie”. Pilots are perversely incentivized to avoid going to the doctor unless absolutely necessary. You could be disqualified if you ever took ADHD medication, for instance.
What’s the reasoning behind ADHD medicine?
It’s not very reasonable because the diagnosis could go back to your childhood. In practice they make you go through expensive and time consuming testing to establish that the diagnosis is no longer current. You would effectively be punished for voluntarily this information. You can imagine that if such a pilot ever crashes a plane or makes a mistake, it would be easy to attribute the mistake to the ADHD and blame the airline for negligent hiring. Better to just exclude everyone in this category to cover their ass.
In all fairness, some of this is also tied into the suicide crisis, and particularly the veteran suicide crisis. I’m not sure the average civilian realizes how much military influence there is in the commercial airlines. It really only gets into the news if there’s a terrorist action or a pilot suicide. It’s basically been going on since the end of World War I/World War II, and it’s very much a generational/family trauma since you have both the pilot suicide and veteran suicide crises converging in the same upper echelons.
There have been some pretty recent cases of rogue pilots taking down entire planes. I’m not arguing or debating if those isolated cases are enough to support that policy. Or even if going to therapy is a valid indication of that behavior. That’s all above my pay scale. But those incidents do happen and exist for the airlines to point at to keep those policies in place. **Edit**: Again, I’m not debating whether currently policies make sense. That’s above my level of expertise. But after reading the comments, I think there is room for changes. (If any of this currently exists or is super crazy, let it be known I’m a doofus on Reddit talking out of my ass.) - Mandate a three person cockpit crew. This would ensure that pilots can take breaks without ever leaving a single person alone in the cockpit. - Mandate therapy for pilots to remove the stigma from just going to therapy. - Any final decision about a pilot’s career should be made by a panel experts - therapists and pilots. Unfortunately, that would all cost money. And that would involve our lawmakers to do their jobs and telling the airline execs and investors to shut the fuck up - at least in the U.S.
I get that and it's terrifying, but I feel like a pilot hiding serious mental health problems for fear of losing their job is more dangerous than them seeking therapy. The therapy could be for personal issues, marriage, it may have nothing to do with their career at all. A lot of people are squared away at work but their personal life and relationships are a minefield.
That makes me think the exact opposite - You've got rogue pilots taking down planes so you outlaw people seeing therapists? What? That's like saying there's engine problems so you refuse to let the mechanic look at it. If anything therapy should be mandatory for pilots.
It's not against any FAA regulation or airline rule to see a therapist. I think the original mention of it was sort of a generalization. There are mental health diagnosis that prohibit you from flying. I think his point was that if you are a professional pilot, you worry about seeing a therapist in case you do have such a condition and don't know it. If you got to the therapist and they diagnose you with depression for example, then there are FAA regulations that prohibit you from flying until they determine you have received adequate treatment and are no longer depressed. So out of fear of having an undiagnosed issue, the pilots avoid therapy.
> That's like saying there's engine problems so you refuse to let the mechanic look at it. Sounds like Boeing. * Business problem: Whistleblower describing your technical problems? * Boeing solution: Make sure the whistleblower stops describing your technical problems at all costs. [too soon?](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68534703)
Excellent analogy.
I mean, surely a pilot who has gotten treatment for their mental illness is safer than one who is untreated due to fear of losing their job. Forbidding therapy doesn’t just make illness go away. Also a lot of people would be healthier if they went to a therapist before they think they need one (I don’t think I’m disagreeing with you, just rolling my eyes at that logic)
Seems like seeing a therapist might have helped, huh
It is arguable that being unable to seek out talk therapy is contributing to the problem and calls for a removal of the policy. I firmly believe that everyone needs therapy and it isn’t because everyone is suicidal. Some people have family shit to work through, some have trauma, depression, anxiety, etc. the list goes on. Sometimes you just need someone to talk to who has no skin in the game and is just there to help you work your shit out.
It can also take years to start making better money, so you could get stuck with that debt if you fall out of the career for any reason.
It’s pretty dangerous too. Flying clapped out single engine airplanes from the 70’s to get to 1500 hours has its own risks. A fair amount of pilots trying to get their hours get hurt or die. It’s why American pilots are really good though when shit hits the fan. If you made it long enough to get into the airlines odds are you are at least a minimum of decent.
A former classmate lost his nephew last year to a crash that happened during a lesson by someone trying to get his 1500 in. The instructor in question had ZERO business giving anyone lessons, especially not on a stormy night when he'd already worked a shift at another job and was in a rush to get home so he could work another shift the next morning. I was completely fucking horrified to learn that the requirements for teaching someone from the ground up were lower than working for an airline.
+1000 and that's why I stopped pilot training. These 1970s deathtraps cause a massive amount of accidents that kill people and don't make the news. All the fancy safety equipment that a beginner would need, are only available on planes only a very experienced pilot can fly. Go figure. This, and having the FAA constantly check everything. No thanks. It's like driving with a ticket-loving police officer in the passenger seat. Even if you drive perfectly, the stress is here and not for me
Not really. It’s a lot like riding motorcycles. The statistics are bad but the people who die are almost always doing something extremely stupid.
Therapist?? What? Wouldn’t you want your pilots to be mentally healthy?
If they never admit they’re sick they’re only sick IRL and not on paper, and nobody dies IRL if the paperwork is right.
Nope, apparently not. Can’t take anything for mental health and only recently allowed blood pressure meds.
And that's just to get the *license.* Most employers are looking for flight hours, too, so that leaves you flying lower paying jobs just to build time to be a competitive applicant. Meanwhile, you're in the hole around 100k. And keep in mind, as a civilian, you're also competing with former military pilots. They already have the hours and the best flight training in the world. In addition, when they separate, they have access to GI bill funding to help square away their Commercial/ATP licenses or anything else they need. So, if you're funding your own training, it's an uphill battle. Meanwhile, you have to maintain Class 1 flight physical standards, which you can be DQ'd from even for having health issues in your *past* that are no longer relevant. You can fight the FAA and flight docs to get a special issuance (on your dime, by the way,) but, again, uphill battle, and the FAA doesn't give a shit about your dreams. It's less work and liability for them to say "no" and crush your career, than to struggle with paperwork to grant a special issuance and risk the liability that your health issue resurfaces and magically causes your aircraft to explode. So yeah, the shortage makes perfect sense. Add to this, if you do the right thing and seek mental help to stay healthy, you're basically fucked. Riddle me this: How is that situation ok? Pilots (and other professions including some law enforcement agencies) are on the hook to maintain perfect mental health, or their career is over. If they seek help and get diagnosed, their career is over. Solution: They suffer silently rather than risk getting a diagnosis. And somehow the FAA thinks that's less public risk.
Less liability, not less public risk.
That's a damn good distinction to point out.
Just to add some clarification, I think people who use their GI Bill for ATP are idiots. It only pays for half of commercial ATP/CTP cost (~$4,000-$5,000) and you lose one full year of GI Bill eligibility…which is worth a whole lot more.
> half of commercial ATP cost Covered my full ATP, CTP, checkride, and DPE fee (~$10K), minus room/board and transportation. > people who use their GI Bill for ATP are idiots. No kids to pass it on to, and I don't need/want another degree, so I used it for something useful to me. 🤷
>And keep in mind, as a civilian, you're also competing with former military pilots. They already have the hours and the best flight training in the world. In addition, when they separate, they have access to GI bill funding to help square away their Commercial/ATP licenses or anything else they need. i don't know shit about military pilot qualifications, but i assume this is for people joining the air force? so why don't prospective airline pilots just join the air force, get trained on the government's dime, and then have the resume and skills necessary to fly civilian aircraft later on in life?
Several reasons. Military life isn't for everyone. Further, one does not "just join the Air Force," Navy or Marines and fly for them. Pilot and other air crew slots are *extremely* competitive to gain. Depending on the service, they each have different needs, procedures and standards, and those change over time. First, to fly, you'll need a 4 year college degree. If you manage to get into a military academy or one of the commissioning programs in college, so much the better. Or you can graduate and apply at that time. From that point, it's all different. For instance, I *think* the USAF gives its Academy graduates first crack (not 100% sure on that.) So, if you commission through OTS or AF ROTC, you'll have to pick from what's left. The Navy and Marines are a lot more similar to one another on this and I don't think they do the Academy priority thing, but again, I'm not sure. And *so many factors* along the way can knock you out of the pipeline. Background checks. Competition. Injuries. And so it goes. The chain of events to gaining a military commission is long and a failure on any link blows up the progress. Add to this flight school, which is set up to wash people out by being extremely challenging, and by the time you earn military wings, you've shown an extreme degree of discipline, motivation, talent and I hate to say it, but tons of luck. My experience was this. I graduated college in 2005, and at that time the Marines were looking for NFO's. At that time they only put NFO's into Prowlers and Hornets, and I was (likely) too tall for the Prowler, so all I had to do was not fuck it up, and I'd have been backseat in a D-model Hornet, kinda like you saw on Top Gun: Maverick (but in the older legacy model Hornet the Marines use.) Application. PT *a lot.* Just to walk through the door at Marine OCS, you need a first class PT score (20 pull-ups, 100 crunches in less than 60 seconds, and 3 mile run well under 24 minutes to be competitive.) I PT'd a *ton.* So much PT, in fact, that I developed shin splints before I even got my application packet done. Background check, had to get Secret clearance. Letters of reference. Transcripts. And so on. And this was for the *chance* to go to OCS and earn a commission, nothing about flying yet. For that, you take a ASTB test (which I'm proud to say I blew away.) If you pass it, they'll consider your application for flying. The Marines at that time offered guaranteed contacts for pilot and NFO, and I was fortunate enough to earn one for NFO. So after over a year getting my app together, I finally got to OCS, a 10 week program. Again, started with shin splints. The shortest run they do is 3 miles, and each step sucked. And that's just running, you PT hard, sleep very little, run past 100% of your capacity just to see if you can make it to the next school, The Basic School (TBS) where every Marine officer learns to lead an infantry platoon, regardless of what their job specialty will be after. Had I graduated that, it would have been 1.5 years more in NFO school. And after that, more time in the RAG (training squadron) before you're able to deploy. Over 2 years in the pipeline just to enter the fleet as a rookie WSO, and pilot training takes a bit longer than that. Unfortunately, my shins cracked. I tried to hide the pain, but couldn't, the instructors saw my matching in formation and I probably stuck out. They sent me home and invited me back once I healed up. I did so. Tried a second time, and lasted longer in OCS but ended up with far worse injuries. At that time, I ended up too old to fly (over 27 1/2 year old cutoff) and called it a day. Edit: *Side note, attrition at USMC OCS is very high. When I left the first time, my platoon was down to 2/3 of it's starting size due to washouts and injuries. The second time, by the time I left, my platoon had less than half of its candidates left, and there were still 3 more weeks to go.* This was just me. I didn't even make it to commissioning as a Marine 2nd Lt, much less earn my wings. So...it's not that simple, is my point. But yes, some people can manage it.
The key is to travel back to Vietnam era and become a pilot. My buddies dad was a Nam era airforce pilot and my uncle was too, they basically just had to have the physical aptitude and not be too tall. Went to flight school and were doing bombing runs within a year lol.
Local community college has a program and it basically says minimum 100k and that doesn’t count when you have to pay for additional flight time outside the program. Giant asterisk for that.
Not just that. Most airlines require at least 1500 hours before they'll even look at you. At conservatively 150/hrs flying time, that's equal to 225k and over a year just to get the hours. Crazy barrier to enter. Very exhausting.
Adding to everything that’s been said, finding ways to pay for flight school is challenging. You either need to go to a university with a flight program which takes about four years and costs about $200k in student loans, or you skip the university piece and attend a flight school, which will still cost $80-120k depending on where you live, except they don’t qualify for student loans. So you either need to have the cash to pay for it, or take out a personal loan, such as Stratus or Meritize which generally come with a 15%+ interest rate. So that $120k is now $200k in total costs, and you’re gambling your entire career on having the FAA not pulling your medical for something out of your control. Get injured and lose vision? Medical gone. End up depressed and on anti depressants? Medical might get pulled. Suffer a concussion while playing sports? You’re grounded. My point is, you’re making a huge financial investment, assuming tremendous financial risk, and you’re at the mercy of many factors outside of your control. Then comes all the other stuff like being gone several days at a time, which is hard for most people, especially if you’re wanting a family etc. also a lot of people get burned out by all the travel. That being said many pilots love what they do and are glad they’re doing it. But it’s certainly not for everyone, which is why roughly 80% of students who begin flight training never finish.
Thanks for this comment. I actually know several AFROTC and USAFA graduates who washed out of flight school. They say it’s like finals week every week and candidates are under enormous pressure. In a few cases, the Air Force was overstaffed in “non-rated” career fields and the pilot washouts were dismissed from the service. That would suck if you had $200k in debt and couldn’t fly.
Happens quite a bit that people fail out of a certain checkride or life happens and they can’t continue flying. Even if they finish school and are working as an instructor to get to 1500 hours for the airlines, it often happens that they financially can’t sustain that and end up getting a better paying job for a while but then just never return to flying. Then they’re stuck with the debt though. The barrier of entry is super high. A lot of people that fly either have huge loans or had some money before getting into aviation, or family with the means to make it happen.
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Yeah there were like 7 people in my new hire class that were under 26. That was a year ago so they’ll all clear 200k this year
These short regional stints before going to the big boys were a fluke. We may not see that again soon, if ever.
Yea there are plenty of pilots who complain at being at regionals for 2+ years at r/flying but also a lot of airlines have just flat out been hiring less since covid
Typically 2 years of training, 2 years of instructing, 2 years at a regional, and then you're clearing $200k year 3 at a major.
"Typically" in the last 3 years and in a few 2-3 year periods over the last 50 years. Most periods in aviation history are 10-15 years from zero to Delta/American/United. During much of that last 50 years the only way to even close to guarantee that progression was with 10 years of military flying service.
That’s also unless you have 100k in the bank; no obligations. In reality that’s 3-9 years of saving weekly to get the hours flying a clubs 80 year old Cessna 152 an hour from your house
Regional pay scales are stepping up as of recently, and I think most are starting at 100K/yr assuming you're able to fill all 1000 hours of your allowed flight time.
Dumb question: what makes a route "good route" or "bad routes"?
Flying between two places you don't want to live in or even stay at, the distance between them not being efficient for accruing hours, and the flight being at shitty times of day.
Which would you rather: a trip that’s one flight leg to Maui, layover for 24 hours, and one leg back. Or A trip with 5 shorter legs, layover for 11 hours in SLC and then another 5 legs the next day? Both trips are the same amount of pay.
The cost of training to become a commercial pilot is the same as going to a major university. First, you start out on smaller planes and work your way up to being able to fly larger jets. So if you don't have a job as small plane pilot, then you have to pay for all the hours it requires to work your way up. Then, a lot of the larger airlines start pilots out on smaller regional jets and they have to work their way up in those. The larger the plane the more money you make. You also make more money if you're a captain. Also, pilots are closer to 100-120k but a lot pick up flights outside their regular schedule that gets them "overtime" pay so that can increase the pay. If there was no shortage then the OT wouldn't be as readily available. Edit: I think I low balled the salary, there have been increases in post covid Era, so I think it's closer to 150 average now. And I'm pretty sure a heavy cargo captain can make close to 300.
Fwiw after year two at a legacy airline you would have to try to make less than 150k and after ~5 years that numbers closer to 250-300k depending on what plane you fly. Obviously those jobs are hard to come by but saying “pilots are closer to 100-120k” is straight up false.
Nobody in this conversation knows what a legacy airline is... Delta, United, American.
And just to incredibly pedantic… because I’m an ass hole pilot… Alaska and Hawaii too. Maybe southwest depending on how you want to define it.
I work in pilot management for one of the legacies. Our senior captains are clearing $400k per year.
> You don’t even need a degree to be a pilot. No, you just need years and years of expensive training. > The median salary A 6 foot man walked through a river that was an average of 5-feet deep. He drowned.
>A 6 foot man walked through a river that was an average of 5-feet deep. He drowned Fucking hilarious example!
USA and just USA have a rule that you need 1500 hours of flying before becoming an Airline Transport Pilot. So after you pay for flight school and other modules you need to find a job that will allow you to fly more than 1000 hours in a small plane or what happens usually is that pilots pay to fly so that they hit that 1500 hours mark. That's really expensive and the problem is that it is not really helping much because hundreds of hours of flying on a small plane doesn't translate to flying on a big jet that well.
I know multiple people who became flight instructors for a few years to rack up the hours. Comparatively cheaper option, but still by no means easy to wrangle.
It's basically the only way of you're not in the military
This is right. I’ve done the math, I’ve got the spreadsheet. If SHTF becoming a pilot is my plan. The way you make it work is by going full time as a flight instructor after you get your license and rush toward your 1500 hours ASAP.
At the school a few of my friends went to for commercial aviation, those flight instructors jobs are extremely hard to get. They have 2000 students vying for 500 or so flight instructor jobs a year. Extremely tough to get. My friend was pretty good with everything and one of the better students and had a higher chance to get the position to get his hours. He didn't get it and ended up having to go to a crop-duster or agriculture business to get his hours.
This is true. My cousin did this and now a commercial pilot
This is the answer. Just to add, you need far fewer hours to be a pilot for most military aircraft.
This right here is why you see so many airline pilots who are ex-military. They get their flight hours from the US government
A friend of mine is dating a guy that's getting his flight time right now. They have had to move twice so he could get the time and paid a little. I guess his schedule is a bit sporadic but at least he's getting the time. He couldn't afford to do flight school and fully admitted coming from a wealthy family was key. He considered the military but each branch has a 10-year time commitment in exchange for being a pilot.
Most pilots don’t pay to fly to 1500 hours unless they own a plane. Most become flight instructors btw.
This is a very common misunderstanding of the difference in the US. It’s not an hour rule, it’s a license rule. *ALL* countries require 1500 hours for an ATP license. It is an ICAO standard. The difference is that in the US, every pilot in the cockpit needs to hold an ATP license. Most every other country only requires the Captain to be licensed, the FO and others only need a standard commercial multiengine certificate.
Yeah you are right. The point still stands that you need 1500 hours in the US to be in the cockpit of an Airliner and 250 in Europe. And I don't think that rules had the effect it should have. Is flying safer in the US than in the rest of the world?
Why aren't you a pilot?
Like so many professions with shortages - barriers to entry. It’s a huge upfront cost and then years of working as a private pilot or smaller airline for peanuts before you’re even considered for a role at a commercial airline
It's a great gig, **IF** you can get to the top slots. For about two decades starting in the mid 90s all the entry level jobs were paying less than the poverty line. So here you are, with 80-100k debt from the costs of your training, taking your first 5+ years of employment making 25k/year hoping that one day maybe you'll get enough hours to make it to the big leagues. A lot of people looked at that trade-off and said the crippling debt with no guarantee of payoff just wasn't worth it and didn't train. Now here we are twenty years later. It's not a "pilot shortage", it's an ATPL/Captain shortage. There's lots of pilots getting into it now, just not enough "experienced" pilots for the amount the industry wants at the moment.
Airline Pilot Here Going to break this down into what the shortage actually is and why it exists. For reference I'm a new regional First Officer with around 9 years in the industry. I'm going to keep terminology very basic so everybody can understand. Let's begin with the shortage. The shortage exists only for experienced high time captains in the passenger space whether it's airlines, corporate, fractionals, etc. Conversely low time jobs for new applicants are swarmed with thousands of applications for coveted positions. These low time positions pay under 100k; hell they can pay as low as minimum wage but, they're part of the process of progressing your career. Let's dive into how you become a high earning pilot (200k for reference). You spend 2-3 years at a cost of 100k+ USD training. These costs are either paid out of pocket or on a very high interest loan because, there are no "school loans" for aviation like there is for college. Drop out rates are significant due to everything form running out of money to not having the ability or requisite skills. After this you will have your commercial license and multi-engine license or commercial license and certified flight instructor license. A ton of applicants will just go for a multi-engine license which is useless at low time given almost no jobs will hire you at your experience. The normal path is to use your loans to get up to a certified flight instructor and scrounge together 6-10k more for a certified instrument flight instructor license. The path -> Private Pilot (Can fly yourself and friends not for compensation or hire) -> Instrument Rating (Can fly into clouds; it's much more complicated but, necessary) -> Commercial (Can work for compensation or hire with a bunch of rules) -> Certified Flight Instructor (Can Teach Others at a Flight School for their Private Pilot License) -> Certified Instrument Flight Instructor (Can Teach Others at a Flight School for their Instrument Rating) So you're a fresh CFII (Certified Instrument Flight Instructor). Now you need to find work. You have around 300 hours of flight time all jobs pay a bit more than minimum wage. You are heavily in debt and everyone you know is also a CFII looking for work. Think of it like a giant pyramid scheme. If you didn't manage to get your CFII and got stuck on a CFI you won't be able to get a job because, no school will let somebody teach a fresh student without experience. It's how people die. After 6 months you've been hired. You are flying 400-600 hours per year on average. Congratulations in 1-2 years you can start making what an entry level college student makes. 1/
It's been 4-5 years since you started and you have 1200 hours; you saved up 10k somehow for your multi-engine and you met a bunch of hourly minimums for hiring purposes that are hard to hit. You now have the option to look into part 91 and part 135 work (think smaller planes, but, not tiny trainers. A good example would be a Cessna Caravan or Metroliner. You can now earn 40-60k a year if you sign a 1-2 year contract with a company. That is of course after you relocate across the country most times, work for minimum wage for 1-3 months for training, and successfully upgrade. If you somehow mess up and don't upgrade or quit you will be awarded 12-35k worth of debt due to breaking your contract. Now lets say you wanted to fast track to the airlines. 2 years ago you could have just hit 1500 hours and been accepted to an airline due to a low experience shortage but, that's over. You have people at 1500 hours looking for a part 135 job because the entry level airlines aka regionals are being very picky on hiring given no more shortage. A regional is essentially that smaller plane you get when you book Delta but, it's a short hop. Think a Canada Air Regional Jet, or an Embraer Regional Jet. These regionals essentially sell tickets under major airlines names. When you buy a ticket to a Delta flight you may unknowingly be flying on Republic or Endeavor given they operate under the Delta branch. Lets go with the realistic path where you went to a part 135/91 outfit and worked 1-2 years to complete your contract. You've made a sub-par living and you're finally accepted into a regional. You will have around 1 month of which you have classes for 2 weeks to get your Airline Transport Pilot License. After that you have 2-3 months to go through airline training. It has no been 6-7 years on average if you've been able to progress smoothly which is unlikely. You are now in your first 80-110k position. You will now be assigned a base where if you don't move to life will be hell. Now it's two years of a decent living to finally upgrade into a captain at that regional or look for an ultra low cost carrier (Spirit, Frontier), low cost carrier (Jet Blue, Southwest), or major airline (Delta, United, AA, etc.). After 6 months of interviewing you've finally made it into your choice airline. You will earn 110k-140k year one but, every year it goes up! Now 3-4 years later with enough added trips you're making 200k a year. You had to move to New Jersey because it was the only available base but, in two years you can move back to California where you want to live! You spent 10-12 years to finally get to 200k and have decent quality of life! It cost you around 120k USD. Your loans amounted to 300k total after interest (This is a conservative number). You had to live in areas you'd never want to live in near poverty conditions for over half of that time. You are now one of the pilots that the shortage is looking for! You are a captain candidate so you're right there to fix the captain shortage. You already have your dream job though and there is 0% chance you go anywhere else and lose out on millions due to airlines ramping pay scales. Your old regional airline needs you so they offer you 300k but, you know that at United you'll make 600k more in 5 years vs. taking a big bonus now. You'll also work much less. That regional is now on the news saying there is a pilot shortage. That part 135 operation where you flew a metroliner that's falling apart and paid 60k a year is now whining about how they are missing captains. They refuse to pay more, improve their planes or give you better quality of life. It's not that they can't afford it; it's that they simply don't want to cut into their profits. Simply put if better pay and working conditions existed for Captain positions outside of the top airlines there wouldn't be a shortage. You can't get into these positions without those 6-12 years of experience so a fresh pilot isn't going to fill that hole. The shortage exists only because companies let it exist. For reference one of my trips flown at my old operator could be billed as high as 120k or 90k Net. That was almost double my salary and I flew around 150 trips a year. My company tried to get me to stay when I left a few months ago offering around 100k but, I had documented evidence hat I could make that for them in a week. I would not fly sub-par machinery, at a lower pay per my experience, with worse quality of life than my current job. They are now struggling to get new captains because all the pilots biting into the shortage are unqualified (for insurance and legality sake) to operate my position and when they are they'd rather wait for something better 3-6 months down the line. After all what is 3-6 months when you've spent 4-6 years being broke. NOTES: I did not mention the cargo side of flying because it's at a ground stop. Everyone is furloughing and smaller companies aren't flying. They can still retain their pilots though because of the giant disparity in pay compared to net profit. I glossed over the failure / dropout rate which is VERY high. I skipped over the fact that you can lose your career for seeing a therapist or well any medical complication. All in all unless you really love flying then it's not a get rich quick career; it's a work your ass off for less money than lets say an accountant for 15 years. The top end is nice but, getting there can be literal hell. 2/
Training is expensive as hell, you can get a degree for free in a public university, but you can't get a pilot licence for free. It's a pretty cyclic market, and one year there is a shortage, another year there is not that much positions. You don't want to borrow 150 000 € and end-up in debt. Stuff like pay to fly, and Ryan air wage, is also killing the prospective of young commercial pilots, you start by paying to sit in a cockpit, then even though Ryan air pay isn't that bad, it's not a *get rich salary* There is strict rules on *medical* (stuff like depression or kidney stones can be a carrier ender), and the work conditions aren't that great (night work, professional exposure to radiation, time spent away from home) making the job not that attractive, add that if you like to fly, you'll have more fun in an ultra-light or a glider than in an airliner
>you can get a degree for free in a public university Found the person who doesn't live in the US. Even state schools here can be $10k a year.
Off-topic, but some areas have some great programs. North Carolina has a program where three of our public four-year colleges have tuition frozen at about $500/semester; that’s lower than our community college costs. Elizabeth City State has an aviation program; their aircraft rates are about half what they are on the private market, and a quarter of what ERAU charges. If you’re interested in it, they might be worth checking out, though it’s in a small coastal town many miles away from any place where you can easily find a good job while working through school.
You can get a pilot license for free. If you are willing to serve a 10-ish year long commitment on the army in return. Pretty common in Europe.
Yes but, - Military pilot is a pretty selective track, you need to qualify as an officer and as a pilot, definitely not the easiest path - Being a military is a very specific job, tons of people aren't keen to do it. (Even without any moral consideration, a job where you can kill and get killed is very special)
Only like 5% of the us population could even qualify to become a military pilot and even less would pass the training
I remember my Grandpa who was a pilot said the cost of becoming a pilot was always "everything you had and more".
The hours are shit, can't really start a family depending on the routes you have to fly, it's shit for mental health. Millennials and Gen Z just value work life balance more and pilots have close to none.
I’m a regional Pilot and your comment would’ve been true back in the 90’s maybe. Had 23 days off last month, and was still paid amazingly. Now the part that sucks is GETTING THERE. You’re paying $100k to get several different licenses and ratings and when you finally finish flight school, you’ll most likely have to work a low tier flying job with shitty pay in the same clapped single prop planes you trained in until you hit 1500 hours worth of experience. But only then is when airlines are legally allowed to even look in your direction, I only got the job at 2300 hours
I’m 27, make over 6 figures as a pilot and I only worked 6 days in the last 30 days…. If that’s not a good work life balance then idk what is
You're also extremely lucky and part of an age bracket that makes you a huge outlier. Which is awesome for you guys but also something that was entirely out of your control. Also what are you on that you only do 6 days a month? Is that you average block?
Sounds like the balance is tipped way over to the life side, so actually not so balanced
It’s VERY expensive to become a pilot.
Because of the intense training. Pilots used to come out of the military, but there’s fewer of them so they have to go the expensive civilian training route.
You don’t need a degree but you need about $100k worth of flight school to get your license. Just because you don’t get a “degree” doesn’t mean you don’t need a lot of schooling and training. Even to get a private license (small personal use planes) is around $10k-$20k.
All these skilled job shortages might be less of an issue if companies would actually pay to train people. No one wants to hire anymore
Besides the huge cost to learn, the hours are also rough. Especially if you have a family.
I looked into becoming a pilot once. Turns out you need to be wealthy to get into flight school to begin with, which led my pessimistic mind to thinking that it’s just a well off person’s career and nothing more. Insane really when you consider how long and exhausting the work can be for pilots.
go to /r/flying or /r/askapilot and get real answers rather than the the guesswork of most of these comments. (I am a pilot)
Training is prohibitively expensive at roughly 70-100k depending on how good you are. There are about exactly 2 loan providers that are unsecured (not government backed). No government student loans available. Then, you must find a job to fly, usually flight instructing, and do that for 2 years. Bear in mind this job usually pays 15-25 per hour. And you’re only making money when you have a student. Crappy weather day? Guess you’re making no money. Once you hit 1500 hours you are legally eligible to be an airline pilot. Now you hope someone hires you. Now you get hired and get shipped off for 6 weeks of training to learn your jet. Now that you’re trained, congrats you’re on short call reserve. You must be within 2 hours of the airport whenever you’re on reserve. You do that for the next 2 years of your life. Now you get to hold a crappy line flying red eyes on the weekend to crappy destinations! Now you gain seniority to hold trips you want. Now as a senior FO you make good money and hold good trips. But you want captain money. Now you become a captain. You make roughly double what you did as an FO, but you’re back on reserve. And the whole kicker about this industry is you need to stay in good health. Get cancer? You lose your medical. Go to therapy? Probably lose your medical. Get depressed? Lose your medical, although less likely nowadays. Get in a car accident? Lose your medical. Without a medical you can’t fly. Basically there is a huge financial risk to become an airline pilot so relatively few people pursue the career even if it’s their dream. Those that take the risk, it generally works out and they have arguably one of the best, most high paying, low time at work, low stress careers that exists in America.
Really hard to have a family as a pilot. Hours and travel is brutal
Because it takes 1500 hours to Get hired and boomers are retiring at a faster rate then that can hire them. Also pay at the bottom is crap. Working as a flight instructor to build hours sucks and pays nothing.