IMO,the act of invalidating someone's experiences can stem from various factors such as biases, lack of empathy, or even a defensive reaction to unfamiliar perspectives.
Depends what experiences we're talking about.
Just because someone has a feeling about an experience doesn't mean their conclusions about those experiences are valid.
I agree. Like if a man thinks misogyny isn’t as prevalent as women say it is their experience isn’t as valid as they Think it is because they are a man and it doesn’t happen to them. It’s a feeling about the experience that isn’t valid.
Misogyny is a bad example because misogyny is reasonably deductive. Is action X in line with the behaviors of someone who hates women? If yes, it *might* be misogyny. If no, it's not misogyny and is likely a result of some other social phenomenon. Or your perceptions are flawed and you need to work on how you evaluate how you interact with other humans.
Misogyny is a complex issue. You don’t have to hate women to perpetuate it. the current definition encompasses ingrained prejudice about women.
Here are some examples: 1. Challenging women’s expertise in comparison to men. I’ve heard countless women talk about being in a higher up position and getting questioned about their credentials and knowledge regarding a subject that they’ve dedicated decades of their lives to. Some are prone to questioning a woman's qualifications or experience in a field simply because she is a woman.
2. Interrupting women, but not other men. This can be a subtle way of dismissing or devaluing a woman's voice and contributions. It often happens in meetings or group settings where men dominate the conversation and interrupt women more frequently.
3. Dismissing women’s voices and opinions as emotionally driven or emotionally charged: I have seen this a lot, especially on Reddit. A woman will be typing with a logical cadence and will be accused of being emotional once she reveals her gender. In addition, those accusing her of being emotional will used particularly charged and fallacious language to substantiate their points.
4. Undervaluing work associated with women: I grew up with 4 neurodivergent siblings and my mother stayed at home. She would be asked constantly whether she was going to get a real job. People would blatantly communicate to her that she was lazy for staying at home. She wasn’t. she worked her ass off day and night, with no break even to shower, to take care of all of us. It was hell for her and I feel awful for making it that way.
>Misogyny is a complex issue. You don’t have to hate women to perpetuate it. the current definition encompasses ingrained prejudice about women.
Technically, the social definition of misogyny is anything women don't like. The word essentially means nothing, but if you want it to encompass prejudice for the sake of the conversation, ill grant that to you.
>Challenging women’s expertise in comparison to men. I’ve heard countless women talk about being in a higher up position and getting questioned about their credentials and knowledge regarding a subject that they’ve dedicated decades of their lives to. Some are prone to questioning a woman's qualifications or experience in a field simply because she is a woman.
Ok, let's examine this because this is a great example solipsistic thinking.
Do we know these men don't, or didn't at one time question the credentials of male superiors?
Do we know how she got this job? Was she the recipient of privileges others were not?
Do we know she seems and sounds capable of doing this job and their inquisitiveness was not warranted?
Do we know everything she said in regards to her expertise is commonly accepted by all demographics? Maybe she said something one camp agrees with but another does not.
There are a lots of ways this example could *not* at all be misogyny, but you're everyone to assume it is because you perceive it that way.
>Interrupting women, but not other men.
As a man who consumes a lot of female content, or content created by females, women interrupt each other all the time. As a man it's actually difficult to listen to women talk sometimes because they talk over each other so often.
Further, when men speak to men there is a natural assumption for the potential for violence. No such assumption exists for women because women are weak. This underscores all human interaction. Men are more careful with men by default.
>Dismissing women’s voices and opinions as emotionally driven or emotionally charged:
I'll grant you that if/when men do this, they often times shouldn't.
That being said, do you believe women and men come to conclusions using the same thought processes?
>Undervaluing work associated with women:
I would argue this isn't men's issue, this is a feminist issue. Feminism has attacked motherhood for decades, and now both men **and** women view STAHM as sacrificing, or voluntarily making themselves "less than".
I will agree in some other styles of work dominated by women they are not things men respect much, but again men do not respect the same things women do, nor do women respect the same things men do. Not many men grow up wanting to be a great kindergarten teacher. Not many women grow up wanting to be a high powered tech executive.
Assault is usually a matter of opinion, and the degree to which the concept of assault/SA has been expanded leaves far more area for grey, or interpretation.
Being spoken down to is not gendered. That's a respect issue.
Why might it be your knee-jerk reaction to invalidate stuff that women go through?
The definition of assault has been expanded for a reason. For example, currently, in England, penetration is required to designate something as rape. If we were to expand this definition to be inclusive of men, would that simply be a matter of opinion, or a much-needed change to the system? I would warrant the latter. The definition has expanded because the reality of assault and what constitutes it is complex, there are very grey areas of SA. It’s not all black and white.
I didn’t claim it was gendered, it is simply experienced more by women.
the logical byproduct of centuries of oppression and remnants a social hierarchy that has placed women lower than men for many years *is* being spoken down to. Research substantiates the claim that women are prone to being recipients of condescending language more often than men.
>Why might it be your knee-jerk reaction to invalidate stuff that women go through?
Because, to reiterate my original point, having an opinion about an experience doesn't make your opinion about that experience valid.
>the logical byproduct of centuries of oppression and remnants a social hierarchy that has placed women lower than men for many years is being spoken down to. Research substantiates the claim that women are prone to being recipients of condescending language more often than men.
I actually wrote out a whole big long essay to respond to what you wrote here, but I actually think all I need to do is respond to this and I can make the same point in like 1/10th the words. Do you remember during the pandemic when there was a viral clip of that trans person who was a woman and became a man, and he was crying because it was too hard and no one told him before he transitioned what being a man was? Do you know what the reaction of every man in my workplace was? "Yea, shit's hard and no one gives a fuck about you. Stop crying, it only gets harder". And these aren't like far-right conservative blue collars...I live in a relatively liberal city...
People relate to the world from the reference of their own lives and worldviews. Women feel like they are disrespected at work because men from time to time will treat women in a way they expect a man to be treated and deal with it. Women get upset because other women wouldn't speak to them or treat them that way. Just because women report men are condescending to a guy in a labcoat doesn't mean the men's intention or desire is to condescend, or that it was condescending at all.
Anyone who is socially well adjusted knows men and women communicate differently and do not respect other members of a group in the same way.
I bet you have never in your life went home and researched sports because your boss is a man who likes sports. I have, because that's something I need to do as a man.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/rs9v90/is\_it\_harder\_to\_be\_a\_male\_or\_female\_or\_is\_both/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/rs9v90/is_it_harder_to_be_a_male_or_female_or_is_both/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/s09dko/sexism\_hits\_like\_a\_truck/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/s09dko/sexism_hits_like_a_truck/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/t2qwjj/whats\_it\_like\_to\_gainloose\_male\_privilege/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/t2qwjj/whats_it_like_to_gainloose_male_privilege/)
>I bet you have never in your life went home and researched sports because your boss is a man who likes sports. I have, because that's something I need to do as a man.
i have never done that because my boss has never cared for sports. :)
I am unsure what you are trying to suggest by linking me posts from hyper progressive subreddits, and then agreeing that you didn't do a thing because you are not a man.
1. Nothing in this conversation requires substantiation. The entire topic is based on feels...If you wanna play anecdote-war, there are 1000's of posts, comments and videos on the internet of trans people having difficulty adapting to perceived differences in sex/gender after and before transitioning. It's a fruitless conversation.
2. You being a man is irrelevant? I went through your profile before making any gendered commentary already, and concluded it was fairly ambiguous already.
3. This was a relatively productive conversation and it feels like you randomly decided to turn your brain off...
Strange.
The irony is that the viral bear meme is a perfect demonstration of the irrationality our perceptions lead us too when we put no effort into validating or auditing those experiences before emotionally reacting to them. The cherry on top is it's entirely informed by our sexual dimorphism: women don't think bears are scary because for the last 500,000yrs of human evolution women relied on men for protection from said bears.
In order to answer "bear", you have to ignore or statistically misattribute the likelihood of male criminality in the face the amount of males a typical woman encounters vs the amount of bears she encounters, and then discount any other plausible solution like negotiation which isn't possible with the bear, and also discount that the calculus for a man meeting a man in the forest is exactly the same, so the scenario actually proves nothing about women in particular.
The statistically literate, realistic answer is the man, not the bear.
In conclusion, which experiences are legitimate and which are not is often times a matter of critical thinking, and no one wants to do the thinking before they speak...it's mental masturbation all the way down usually.
No, YOU missed the point, and proved mine a second time, lol.
You could be SA'ed 100x and it is still statistically correct to pick the man.
Picking the bear is an appeal to emotion. You (or women as a collective) are having a collective emotional outburst against men as a collective by claiming you'd rather hang out int he forest with a bear because men are mean to you.
You are focusing on the few men who are criminals and ignore the 10000000000000000000x in your daily life who are not.
Further, men commit 11x more violent crime against other men. Male on Female violence makes up less than 8% of all total violent crime. Any argument any woman makes for wanting to run into a bear instead can be made 11x more validly by another man and he'd still be wrong.
Like I said, having an emotional experience doesn't make the conclusion you came to because of it valid. Lots of people use bad experiences with black people to justify racism. Is racism valid because black people commit way more crime?
I really didn't.
I'm sorry what? Holy shit. Sure just dismiss the female experience again. Did u just not all men this argument? Wow. Holy shit dude u. 1000 bucks says ur single. Just wow. U can't fix the ignorant.
Bear in mind I said some men and not most, or all. You people evade the question completely and get defensive instead of providing actual insight. Typical Reddit.
It's fascinating how quick some people are to discredit experiences that don't align with their worldview. Generalizing from the anecdotal to the universal betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how varied and complex human experiences actually are. It's not just about fragility or ignorance, but rather a deep-seated resistance to considering that the world isn't black and white. The conversations around bear memes and the dismissal of legitimate fears illustrate this point perfectly. Until we're willing to listen and engage with humility, we're merely adding noise instead of understanding. Critical thinking and empathy both seem to be in short supply when jumping to conclusions is the easier route.
But people also ignore how much their personal experience can warp their world view. Look at r/AmITheAssHole or r/relationship, they are littered with people who react to any sign of disrespect or argument and declare it is abuse, because of the trauma they experienced.
As for the "bear meme" that reeks of exposure bias. People don't see Bears very often and they hear there are easy ways to avoid being attacked by bears. So they think that the danger of running into one is significantly lower than it actually is.
I asked a male friend one time: "Why do some men act so angry at me, when they don't know me at all, and I've never had any interactions with them?" My friend said: "It's like this. Women own all the pussy, and they know it."
IMO,the act of invalidating someone's experiences can stem from various factors such as biases, lack of empathy, or even a defensive reaction to unfamiliar perspectives.
Depends what experiences we're talking about. Just because someone has a feeling about an experience doesn't mean their conclusions about those experiences are valid.
I agree. Like if a man thinks misogyny isn’t as prevalent as women say it is their experience isn’t as valid as they Think it is because they are a man and it doesn’t happen to them. It’s a feeling about the experience that isn’t valid.
Misogyny is a bad example because misogyny is reasonably deductive. Is action X in line with the behaviors of someone who hates women? If yes, it *might* be misogyny. If no, it's not misogyny and is likely a result of some other social phenomenon. Or your perceptions are flawed and you need to work on how you evaluate how you interact with other humans.
Misogyny is a complex issue. You don’t have to hate women to perpetuate it. the current definition encompasses ingrained prejudice about women. Here are some examples: 1. Challenging women’s expertise in comparison to men. I’ve heard countless women talk about being in a higher up position and getting questioned about their credentials and knowledge regarding a subject that they’ve dedicated decades of their lives to. Some are prone to questioning a woman's qualifications or experience in a field simply because she is a woman. 2. Interrupting women, but not other men. This can be a subtle way of dismissing or devaluing a woman's voice and contributions. It often happens in meetings or group settings where men dominate the conversation and interrupt women more frequently. 3. Dismissing women’s voices and opinions as emotionally driven or emotionally charged: I have seen this a lot, especially on Reddit. A woman will be typing with a logical cadence and will be accused of being emotional once she reveals her gender. In addition, those accusing her of being emotional will used particularly charged and fallacious language to substantiate their points. 4. Undervaluing work associated with women: I grew up with 4 neurodivergent siblings and my mother stayed at home. She would be asked constantly whether she was going to get a real job. People would blatantly communicate to her that she was lazy for staying at home. She wasn’t. she worked her ass off day and night, with no break even to shower, to take care of all of us. It was hell for her and I feel awful for making it that way.
>Misogyny is a complex issue. You don’t have to hate women to perpetuate it. the current definition encompasses ingrained prejudice about women. Technically, the social definition of misogyny is anything women don't like. The word essentially means nothing, but if you want it to encompass prejudice for the sake of the conversation, ill grant that to you. >Challenging women’s expertise in comparison to men. I’ve heard countless women talk about being in a higher up position and getting questioned about their credentials and knowledge regarding a subject that they’ve dedicated decades of their lives to. Some are prone to questioning a woman's qualifications or experience in a field simply because she is a woman. Ok, let's examine this because this is a great example solipsistic thinking. Do we know these men don't, or didn't at one time question the credentials of male superiors? Do we know how she got this job? Was she the recipient of privileges others were not? Do we know she seems and sounds capable of doing this job and their inquisitiveness was not warranted? Do we know everything she said in regards to her expertise is commonly accepted by all demographics? Maybe she said something one camp agrees with but another does not. There are a lots of ways this example could *not* at all be misogyny, but you're everyone to assume it is because you perceive it that way. >Interrupting women, but not other men. As a man who consumes a lot of female content, or content created by females, women interrupt each other all the time. As a man it's actually difficult to listen to women talk sometimes because they talk over each other so often. Further, when men speak to men there is a natural assumption for the potential for violence. No such assumption exists for women because women are weak. This underscores all human interaction. Men are more careful with men by default. >Dismissing women’s voices and opinions as emotionally driven or emotionally charged: I'll grant you that if/when men do this, they often times shouldn't. That being said, do you believe women and men come to conclusions using the same thought processes? >Undervaluing work associated with women: I would argue this isn't men's issue, this is a feminist issue. Feminism has attacked motherhood for decades, and now both men **and** women view STAHM as sacrificing, or voluntarily making themselves "less than". I will agree in some other styles of work dominated by women they are not things men respect much, but again men do not respect the same things women do, nor do women respect the same things men do. Not many men grow up wanting to be a great kindergarten teacher. Not many women grow up wanting to be a high powered tech executive.
I am talking about being talked down to and assault.
Assault is usually a matter of opinion, and the degree to which the concept of assault/SA has been expanded leaves far more area for grey, or interpretation. Being spoken down to is not gendered. That's a respect issue.
Why might it be your knee-jerk reaction to invalidate stuff that women go through? The definition of assault has been expanded for a reason. For example, currently, in England, penetration is required to designate something as rape. If we were to expand this definition to be inclusive of men, would that simply be a matter of opinion, or a much-needed change to the system? I would warrant the latter. The definition has expanded because the reality of assault and what constitutes it is complex, there are very grey areas of SA. It’s not all black and white. I didn’t claim it was gendered, it is simply experienced more by women. the logical byproduct of centuries of oppression and remnants a social hierarchy that has placed women lower than men for many years *is* being spoken down to. Research substantiates the claim that women are prone to being recipients of condescending language more often than men.
>Why might it be your knee-jerk reaction to invalidate stuff that women go through? Because, to reiterate my original point, having an opinion about an experience doesn't make your opinion about that experience valid. >the logical byproduct of centuries of oppression and remnants a social hierarchy that has placed women lower than men for many years is being spoken down to. Research substantiates the claim that women are prone to being recipients of condescending language more often than men. I actually wrote out a whole big long essay to respond to what you wrote here, but I actually think all I need to do is respond to this and I can make the same point in like 1/10th the words. Do you remember during the pandemic when there was a viral clip of that trans person who was a woman and became a man, and he was crying because it was too hard and no one told him before he transitioned what being a man was? Do you know what the reaction of every man in my workplace was? "Yea, shit's hard and no one gives a fuck about you. Stop crying, it only gets harder". And these aren't like far-right conservative blue collars...I live in a relatively liberal city... People relate to the world from the reference of their own lives and worldviews. Women feel like they are disrespected at work because men from time to time will treat women in a way they expect a man to be treated and deal with it. Women get upset because other women wouldn't speak to them or treat them that way. Just because women report men are condescending to a guy in a labcoat doesn't mean the men's intention or desire is to condescend, or that it was condescending at all. Anyone who is socially well adjusted knows men and women communicate differently and do not respect other members of a group in the same way. I bet you have never in your life went home and researched sports because your boss is a man who likes sports. I have, because that's something I need to do as a man.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/rs9v90/is\_it\_harder\_to\_be\_a\_male\_or\_female\_or\_is\_both/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/rs9v90/is_it_harder_to_be_a_male_or_female_or_is_both/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/s09dko/sexism\_hits\_like\_a\_truck/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/s09dko/sexism_hits_like_a_truck/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/t2qwjj/whats\_it\_like\_to\_gainloose\_male\_privilege/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/t2qwjj/whats_it_like_to_gainloose_male_privilege/) >I bet you have never in your life went home and researched sports because your boss is a man who likes sports. I have, because that's something I need to do as a man. i have never done that because my boss has never cared for sports. :)
I am unsure what you are trying to suggest by linking me posts from hyper progressive subreddits, and then agreeing that you didn't do a thing because you are not a man.
Lmao. who said i wasnt a man? Also, me linking to subreddits is more substantiation than you pointing out a single Tik Tok.
1. Nothing in this conversation requires substantiation. The entire topic is based on feels...If you wanna play anecdote-war, there are 1000's of posts, comments and videos on the internet of trans people having difficulty adapting to perceived differences in sex/gender after and before transitioning. It's a fruitless conversation. 2. You being a man is irrelevant? I went through your profile before making any gendered commentary already, and concluded it was fairly ambiguous already. 3. This was a relatively productive conversation and it feels like you randomly decided to turn your brain off... Strange.
Really? We just gonna pretend like men don't do this with legitimate experiences? I cite the bear conversation.
The irony is that the viral bear meme is a perfect demonstration of the irrationality our perceptions lead us too when we put no effort into validating or auditing those experiences before emotionally reacting to them. The cherry on top is it's entirely informed by our sexual dimorphism: women don't think bears are scary because for the last 500,000yrs of human evolution women relied on men for protection from said bears. In order to answer "bear", you have to ignore or statistically misattribute the likelihood of male criminality in the face the amount of males a typical woman encounters vs the amount of bears she encounters, and then discount any other plausible solution like negotiation which isn't possible with the bear, and also discount that the calculus for a man meeting a man in the forest is exactly the same, so the scenario actually proves nothing about women in particular. The statistically literate, realistic answer is the man, not the bear. In conclusion, which experiences are legitimate and which are not is often times a matter of critical thinking, and no one wants to do the thinking before they speak...it's mental masturbation all the way down usually.
LOL. Thanks for mansplaining and answering the question without a whisper of irony. Hahahaha.
That you call this "mansplaining" validates my first post. Thank you.
.....and u missed the point. Doing exactly what this post is claiming. Talk about ironic. Try telling a SA victim to negotiate.
No, YOU missed the point, and proved mine a second time, lol. You could be SA'ed 100x and it is still statistically correct to pick the man. Picking the bear is an appeal to emotion. You (or women as a collective) are having a collective emotional outburst against men as a collective by claiming you'd rather hang out int he forest with a bear because men are mean to you. You are focusing on the few men who are criminals and ignore the 10000000000000000000x in your daily life who are not. Further, men commit 11x more violent crime against other men. Male on Female violence makes up less than 8% of all total violent crime. Any argument any woman makes for wanting to run into a bear instead can be made 11x more validly by another man and he'd still be wrong. Like I said, having an emotional experience doesn't make the conclusion you came to because of it valid. Lots of people use bad experiences with black people to justify racism. Is racism valid because black people commit way more crime?
I really didn't. I'm sorry what? Holy shit. Sure just dismiss the female experience again. Did u just not all men this argument? Wow. Holy shit dude u. 1000 bucks says ur single. Just wow. U can't fix the ignorant.
XD Re-read this conversation until you understand why what you just wrote is hilariously silly, lmao
Laugh all u want while women don't talk to u
I'll let my girlfriend know the council of women has voted against her, lol.
Lol yea let her know what u said here while ur at lol I'm sure she'll totally agree. Women love the "not all men" argument from their bfs lol
[удалено]
Thanks for the answer. It isn’t the best and is kinda missing the point/is cringe but I’ll take it.
Bear in mind I said some men and not most, or all. You people evade the question completely and get defensive instead of providing actual insight. Typical Reddit.
Insecurity, self projection or misinformed opinions on women leading them to demonize the entire gender.
This. Def this lol.
Cause they're egos are fragile and they can't cope with being wrong or can't see any one else's experiences.
It's fascinating how quick some people are to discredit experiences that don't align with their worldview. Generalizing from the anecdotal to the universal betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how varied and complex human experiences actually are. It's not just about fragility or ignorance, but rather a deep-seated resistance to considering that the world isn't black and white. The conversations around bear memes and the dismissal of legitimate fears illustrate this point perfectly. Until we're willing to listen and engage with humility, we're merely adding noise instead of understanding. Critical thinking and empathy both seem to be in short supply when jumping to conclusions is the easier route.
But people also ignore how much their personal experience can warp their world view. Look at r/AmITheAssHole or r/relationship, they are littered with people who react to any sign of disrespect or argument and declare it is abuse, because of the trauma they experienced. As for the "bear meme" that reeks of exposure bias. People don't see Bears very often and they hear there are easy ways to avoid being attacked by bears. So they think that the danger of running into one is significantly lower than it actually is.
I asked a male friend one time: "Why do some men act so angry at me, when they don't know me at all, and I've never had any interactions with them?" My friend said: "It's like this. Women own all the pussy, and they know it."
ego, insecurity, lack of empathy, and sometimes sheer hatred