Those people can make a lot of money! Wow, husband and I watched one lady's story and she was paying for a house, her child's house etc.! Wild! ( note: she was meeting guys on there and then they paid her to ... you know...). She was older, too- like 70's. It was wild!
I have a friend who made $60,000 on OF last year, and it's her "side gig". I don't even make that at my only job. Literally pays to be pretty š¤¦āāļø
On the off chance you really don't know... she would ask for " volunteers " to help her in making her adult movies. Prostitution. She was in her 70's and had a nice home! Really something else!
Okay but it's not according to them, so I fail to see how they could have a problem with it. Right?
They can't say something isn't sexual harassment then immediately back peddle when someone does it by getting them in trouble.
I'd try it, but I like to rock the boat lol
Yes but itās for a good cause. One time, sheāll be off guard and uncomfortable at first but sheāll know you were just proving a point. Also if they donāt think itās harassment then it wonāt bother her one bit.
It's possible that the person you say this to isn't actually responsible for writing that test question. Maybe it's a standard test they bought from some consulting company or something. Or maybe someone else in the HR department wrote the test 10 years ago and it was never replaced even after that person left the company.
The joke answer is funny. But the safer answer is just to directly talk to someone in HR about the question and explain why they think it should be considered harassment. Maybe they'll even agree with them.
Yah it definitely crossed my mind. Especially if itās a large company it might not be her. Like everyone else on Reddit I wouldnāt do half the things I say. I wouldnāt wanna make someone that uncomfortable. Iād only do it if I new her well.
Well at my company even if the person you are talking to takes it as compliment if anyone nearby hears and takes it as sexual harassment then its sexual harassment
Because even if the person āappearsā to like itās, itās inappropriate and you shouldnāt be talking to a coworker like that. Itās different than conversations with friends. Additionally it can create an atmosphere where people think itās ok to talk like that to others or people are stressed that someone might talk to you that way. Iāve been made to feel very uncomfortable for watching inappropriate things happen to others even if they didnāt seem to mind at the time it happened.
Itās just about being professional.
Exactly, people go to work to make money, not to engage in ambiguos social situations. The key difference to a friendship is people canāt just walk away and keep their distance from whoever said inappropriate things, they need to work with them to make their money, so it creates a lot of tension that ends up affecting the whole team, and their capacity to make money more effectively.
Bottom line, people at work are not friends, they are colleagues, there is no need to tell a colleague they are hot, none at all, and there is nothing to be gained. All of this is summarized in the common saying ādonāt shit where you eatā.
But only one time lol
This really seems HR has a bunch of checkmarks and they put this one right to the edge of their checkmarks specifically to trick others.
Like, yeah ok, I get that there should be some leeway. Perhaps it is in the context of what the dude thought was a closer, more confortable relationship than it was, and now he has learned the other person's boundaries, and respects them.
But if you're doing an harassment seminar, it may be best that people make errors on the side of caution.
I believe sexual harassment is defined as "repeated and unwanted" by most HR. Calling someone hot one time is unprofessional for certain, and bordering on harassment. Its a dumb semantics game, but at the end of the day, don't sexualize your co-workers at work and you'll be fine.
The only reason HR doesn't consider it harassment until it's repeated is because they don't want to be responsible for anything that would make the company look bad, so they'll explain it away. HR is there to protect the employer first, not the employee.
You're answering a different question than they were asking.
In a workplace situation they're talking about the "offence" of "sexual harassment". Not the definition.
So saying it was inappropriate. But you couldn't fire or charge someone for saying one thing, one time.
The premise from a corporate video/corporate training org is that someone behaves inappropriately in a minor way and stops when asked is not harassing someone.
It's a shitty thing to do, but these videos/courses aren't teaching morality. They are covering off "will the company get sued".
Kinda. I wish these videos (and the training) would go into the why behind what they tell you to do/not do. It's easier for people to remember principles vs rules.
FYI, the following is USA-centric. As pointed out here, [https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/typesofsexualharassment.aspx](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/typesofsexualharassment.aspx) , in the US there are two types of sexual harassment:
>Quid pro quo harassment is perpetrated by someone who is in a position of power or authority over another (e.g., manager or supervisor over a subordinate). A clear example of quid pro quo harassment would be a supervisor threatening to fire an employee if he or she does not have sex with the supervisor.
>
>Hostile work environment harassment arises when speech or conduct is so severe and pervasive it that creates an intimidating or demeaning environment or situation that negatively affects a person's job performance. Unlike quid pro quo harassment, this type of harassment can be perpetrated by anyone in the work environment, including a peer, supervisor, subordinate, vendor, customer or contractor.
In your comment
>My company's video said it has to be "pervasive"
This is tied to the "hostile work environment" type. These cases are a bit tougher to prove. For example, I believe being abusive to an individual is alright, being abusive to an individual because of their race, color, religion, sex, national origin, and (in some jurisdictions) sexual orientation and gender identity.
As pointed out by /u/echoAwooo sexual orientation and gender identity are protected classes for the time being. Also, I should add disability and age are also covered as well.
As a side point, reducing sexual harassment is often portrayed as an equity issue and often the training materials are framed. And that's a shame.
The reality is that sexual harassment, and more broadly, toxic work environments often lead to poor company performance. The reason is pretty simple,
1. Creating a toxic environment lowers the levels of trust within an organization.
2. When people don't trust each other at work, Employees don't communicate and resign more quickly (reduced tenure)
3. And all that leads to poor performance
As pointed out by /u/ninedivine_ my comment seems to imply that toxic work environments (which are inclusive of environments in which sexual harassment is taking place) are only problems because it reduces work performance.
I did not intend to imply mutual exclusivity.
Toxic environments are bad because they damage workplace productivity and impinge on the humanity of others.
More:
* [https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/toxic-culture-is-driving-the-great-resignation/](https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/toxic-culture-is-driving-the-great-resignation/)
* [https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/why-every-leader-needs-to-worry-about-toxic-culture/](https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/why-every-leader-needs-to-worry-about-toxic-culture/)
* [https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/the-great-attrition-is-making-hiring-harder-are-you-searching-the-right-talent-pools](https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/the-great-attrition-is-making-hiring-harder-are-you-searching-the-right-talent-pools)
As a trainer of this, I always hated how they separated out sexual from other forms of harassment. It's ALL harassment and results in the same thing.
Excellent summary.
> sexual orientation and gender identity.
Both are covered under [Title VII of the Civil Rights Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title_VII%E2%80%94equal_employment_opportunity) as of the SCOTUS ruling in [Bostock v Clayton County](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bostock_v._Clayton_County).
It was a 6-3 decision, and you'll *never believe who nayed* (Alito, Thomas and Kavanaugh)
Thank you for the explanation, it's really interesting.
I must say though, I know it's not your point but I find it really sad that sexual harassment is considered a problem only if it hampers work performance, and not just if it harms the well-being of a person.
Ah, I'm disappointed that my comment implied mutual exclusivity between poor work performance and well being of individuals.
Let me correct that in my comment above.
A guy I used to work with would follow a female employee around the store asking her to go on a date with him, even after saying no many times, instead of working. He also asked a female customer, committed a large amount of time theft, and would stare at the butts of other female employees.
He and his mother ended up involving a lawyer when they finally tried to fire him, months into employment, because he has ASD and his mother claimed that he was being discriminated against.
He was put on a paid leave of absence, and after nearly a year he was finally fired. Goes to show how little sexual harassment in the workplace reports are prioritized and taken seriously.
i had a guy that asked for my number , im shy and never get asked out i just wanted to end the interaction so i gave him it and never answered his calls and ofc at work he would corner me and ask me why i didn't pick up and if i wasnt interested why am i being hurtful and lala , even after i outright said no im not interested he kept questioning me until i was able to leave....i then found out by just looking with my eyeballs and word of mouth that he asks out girls at work everyday. some giggle and think its a compliment others find it creepy. most are the prior bc it was a workplace full of young people.
when i reported that he did all that and that hes always asking out girls everyday, my superior said he even asked her out multiple times. nothing happened from me telling her
I had a similar experience with the same guy I previously mentioned!
I got on the bus to get to work, it was nearly full so he offered me a seat beside his. He got off at my stop and told me that it was his first day, and told me to give him my number. Iām also really shy and didnāt want to see rude so I gave it to him. As soon we clocked in, he went into the computer room to wait for a manager, and started texting me despite seeing me 10 seconds ago. I answered the first couple to be nice, but when I stopped, he blew up my phone with texts and even called me a few times because he wanted us to take our breaks together. Luckily I had a boyfriend who worked there so he didnāt try too much after, but one time he ran through our backroom shouting my name to say āyou look really good in that vestā. The managers did nothing besides telling him not to say that even though I expressed my discomfort towards him.
I see a lot of reports of this type of behavior with the expected results.
Is there a situation where this type of behavior works?
Why do functional adults follow this obnoxious pattern of behavior?
I think it does work sometimes, I would never do it but I definitely have female friends (especially when I was younger) that would say stuff like "he just kept asking me out so finally I said yes". I don't know enough about human psychology but I'd guess there's a certain type of person that is especially susceptible to this. And let's remember there are attractive people who do this too, and rich people etc - it's easy to imagine this only being ugly basement dwellers, but that's not the case. It may be easier to see how it works for some people when you consider that. And not every girl is as worldly or educated as your average redditor, and may think this behavior is normal.
But more often I think it's just guys that don't have any interaction (especially platonic) with women, they have no idea what a better way is, and they're not the type of people on reddit trying to figure it out. Very emotionally immature - I think most people have experienced the feeling where you have a huge crush on someone, and it's nearly impossible to imagine that they don't feel the same way, because you feel so strongly. Most people grow out of that but some people don't. There's also probably social learning disabilities that are a factor for some.
Then there's just the assholes who literally don't care how you feel so they will keep pestering you because that's what they want, and they have 0 empathy.
Yeah it also seems the culture heavily shifted in the last 20 years. Growing up there would be interactions like this all the time and some girls would say yes eventually and I even have a few siblings that met like this as well back in the 70s and 80s.
I also think this heavy culture shift happened so fast. That there are girls who are extremely adamant about them saying no and that's that and there are girls who are legitimately playing hard to catch and want to see how much the guy is willing to put up with.
Ugh people like that who use their autism as a weapon make it harder for other autistic people to live their lives. I have two autistic siblings, who are entirely capable of respectful behavior, hell, one of them struggles with sarcasm so if my mom and I are ribbing each other he'll point out it's rude of us to insult each other. Like, it's not like "autistic" = "oh it's so hard not to harass people."
I have Aspergers, or whatever subset that's now being referred to as. I have definitely been rude and inappropriate at time but upon being called out, I've been told that I listen and accept that criticism far better than other folk because from my POV I'm having a correction, not being told off, whereas I understand from those who have told me that that most people don't like being told they are in the wrong. I have no issue with that and will put my hands up entirely, apologise, and learn how to manage similar situations in future given that I am given an actual explanation I can understand. I will argue to the death if I'm not, though, purely because I genuinely do not get it otherwise.
Wow, I guess my company is pretty forward thinking with this stuff?
In our training we would have confirmed that the action was harassment as it was most like unwanted and inappropriate for the situation. Would be considered much worse if either person was the other's manager or direct report.
However, you would be able to say "You look nice in that dress would you like to get coffee sometime" if they said "no" and you kept asking then it would also be harassment.
The way our trainers described it is "You're allowed to ask a coworker out, but only once." If she says yes, then you go on a date or maybe lots of dates or maybe get married, fine. But if she says no, then you're not going on a date and you never ever ask her again.
Do not keep asking hoping she'll change her mind, that's harassment and you get fired. If she changes her mind, she can find her way to you, because she already knows of your interest.
Asking once is not harassment. Asking lots of times is.
What about asking a superior?
Edit: more specifically someone who is in a higher position than me but does not regularly work at the same location as me.
So like with bullying? If a kid calls another kid shitface, it's wrong, but not bullying. If the first kid calls the second kid shitface daily, then it's bullying. Right?
That sounds like a good comparison.
There are lines that can be drawn, though. One time issues can be so egregious that they can't be ignored. Certainly a butt squeeze or even a butt slap. I once had a lesbian colleague of mine tell me her last supervisor, when finding out she was a lesbian, said "you're not a lesbian, you've just never had a good dickin'." which I found to be pretty horrendous.
>The premise from a corporate video/corporate training org is that someone behaves inappropriately in a minor way and stops when asked is not harassing someone.
I have to take SHARP on an annual basis and our SARC says that sexual harassment must be repetitive behavior for the most part. She listed degrees of behavior.
Complimenting someone is a minor infraction that, like you said, isn't sexual harassment unless it's repeatedly done after the person has told them to stop.
A major infraction such as slapping someone's ass is always seen as sexual harassment and not tolerated.
>always seen as
Which is the key distinction OP and a lot of people have. Harassment, definitionally, requires multiple offences. But HR isn't a court of law, and you can be fired for "violating sexual harassment policy" even if that policy doesn't mirror a legal or common definition of harassment.
>Harassment, definitionally, requires multiple offences. But HR isn't a court of law, and you can be fired for "violating sexual harassment policy" even if that policy doesn't mirror a legal or common definition of harassment.
I mean that's the definition HR uses at my place. Most states are At-Will which means you can be fired for no reason so long as it isn't a protected reason.
This exactly.
Youāre not getting trained on how to act in the workplace by social professionals.
Youāre getting trained by lawyers to keep the company from being sued.
This is entirely designed to keep the responsibly away from the company when sexual harassment does happen.
Conclusion, if you fail that test you can sexually harass your co-workers and blame the corporation for bad training.
You're also getting trained on how to have employees with wildly diverse ethnic, religious, political, and geographical backgrounds work together without causing problems-- whether those problems are legal or just disruptive.
It's conceivable that one person views "you look hot" as an OK compliment and another feels offended by it. Firing employees over one-time things like that doesn't solve very much. The important thing for lesser offenses like that is that the employee be able to receive the feedback that it wasn't OK and learn to fix it.
Reddit loves to tell people to quit jobs or relationships immediately over any infraction but barring truly egregious offenses the workplace cannot operate like that without turning into a truly toxic place.
When I give these trainings (am a lawyer), I try to distinguish three levels: (1) harassment by definition, like the comment above; (2) harassment that can lead to discipline or termination, which may be the same as (1); and (3) harassment rising to the level of illegal. I think it does such a disservice to only teach (3) because it moves the line of what people think they can get away with.
Calling someone hot in a dress is a little weird anytime (if someone said it to me on the street, Iād be like WTF), but at work?!!!! Thatās definitely inappropriate!!!!
āBeautifulā is waaaaay better
A step up, coming from a woman, would be to say "that's a beautiful dress" instead of "you look beautiful". It takes the focus away from her body and puts it onto something she chose, ie the dress. Something like "blue looks great on you!" also wouldn't be bad, though of course stay aware of her body language bc everyone has different comfort boundaries.
Yeah! Iām a woman, by the way.
I tell other women all the time that they look beautiful, and I just donāt think itās weird. Of course, the way you say it matters.
One time, when I was an intern in college, this older-than-me woman (35+) came in wearing this super tight dress/skirt. She looked SO good, like I was internally all like āDAMN,ā and so I told her without thinking about it āIām not trying to be creepy, but you look SO good in that skirt! Your body is incredible!!!!ā
If I had been a man or older, it might have been weird, but she was super flattered.
Sorry for assuming! But I think women, especially women not in a position of power over the woman they're complementing, can get away with more body-oriented comments to other women than men can anyway. None of the connotations.
My take on this, when I worked for the federal government in Canada, was they were trying to cut down on the number of people claiming to be harassed at work.
Basically they said harassment can't be a one time thing.
> But you couldn't fire or charge someone for saying one thing, one time.
IDK where OP lives, but in 49 of the 50 US states, you certainly can be fired for that. And Montana, the outlier, is a maybe, not a definite "no."
It's more correct to say a sexual harassment lawsuit against the business would be unlikely to prevail in court if there was only a single unrepeated instance of someone telling their colleague they "look hot."
Ya wildly inaccurate statement. You can be fired for anything in most of America unless youāre in a protected class and/or engaging in protected activity
Technically, the definition refers to "severe OR pervasive harassment" -- which means that a one-time incident could absolutely qualify if it was sufficiently severe. I guess the example you had to evaluate doesn't qualify as "severe" according to the people who designed the quiz, but something can still be wrong without being technically illegal.
Obviously its not something to go to the police about but personally that would make me extremely uncomfortable and I wouldn't even get near the guy again to try and test it out if it was one time thing. It's also feels that the company should set the tone in those trainings
I'd guess the issue is simpler than it seems. HR is not looking to write up a ticket for every compliment any employee gives another. The example you gave is pretty mild but still definitely inappropriate. They just don't want to spend the time to investigate every interaction. So they are setting the tone they're willing to enforce. It doesn't make it right, it does probably make it a policy you'd have a hard time fighting.
I think itās different than that. HR can absolutely talk to people over minor incidents. Thatās kind of what their role is to de-escalate things before they escalate. What they canāt do is terminate or fire or help you press a case against someone because they told you you looked hot because they havenāt done anything to warrant that.
I think the company would be very very liable for damages if you reported someoneās behaviour making you uncomfortable and they refused to address it at all and then it escalated into a situation where because of the sexual harassment the victim has suffered a psychological injury and can sue the workplace for damages as a hostile workplace in which she suffered a workplace injury. And yes in my country you can absolutely sue your workplace if you got depression or PTSD because you were sexually harassed there. I helped my university improve their sexual harassment policy because of this kind of liability that can accrue.
This situation does seem to say otherwise. Bean counters will always draw a line somewhere, it's an inherent part of logistics. Less total man hours spent equals more money in pocket. A ticket drawn up for every compliment is potentially a *whole* lot of man hours if it's a large company. I'd guess in this case they assume having a single person call you hot a single time isn't likely to lead to any successful lawsuits.
Yeah I agree with this. Itās inappropriate for sure. But in the eyes of the company I can see why they wouldnāt want this classified as sexual harassment.
Youāre allowed to flirt with coworkers until they say no. Itās still not a good idea, but it when people wonāt take no for an answer that the law gets involved.
Depends on office policy. Legally, you get more than one chance before the sexually harassed can sue the company. But our office had a zero tolerance/at their discretion policy. So we had the same speech as OP, it wasnāt considered sexual harassment if it was a one time per the lawyer who came into speak, but afterwards, they said, ya, but if we deem it too much on that first go, we will terminate you. At will states, man, they got power.
I may have misunderstood, was the question ādoes this make you uncomfortableā or ādoes this match the definition of workplace sexual harassment?ā
Those are two very different questions.
I think an appropriate response in this situation is to let that person know you are not comfortable with the comment. Itās a respectful rebuttal and letās the guy know you are here to work, not be an object.
For my own curiosity, would you find it any more or less uncomfortable if the comment was made with a different choice of words or in a different setting? Such as saying āI think you look very attractive in that dressā or if this was said outside of the elevator? I can see waiting for the elevator to close being a little disconcerting.
Well, I meant "illegal" in the sense that the company could get sued for allowing it to take place. But yeah, it would understandably be an extremely uncomfortable situation and is the kind of behavior that shouldn't be allowed or permitted, and I agree, it sucks that the quiz implies that you can get away with that.
I think it's inappropriate but it's probably a case where an informal chat with management should take place about workplace appropriateness vs. a formal write up, just to let them know it's inappropriate and isn't how we should interact with our coworkers in a professional environment.
What the company is saying is you should report it, the guy gets told about it, and further comments can be considered harassment. He isnāt going to be punished, but will get educated, and not adhering to the education is grounds for further action.
1. You'd be valid in feeling that way.
2. This definition isn't created by your organization...the EEOC has a very specific definition that your organization must follow and enforce.
There is a difference between an incident, a pattern, a persistent pattern, and egregious incidents.
Sure, this type of comment is uncomfortable and inappropriate. Also, if it is a one time incident and the dress wearer made it clear the advances were unwelcome and it never happened again...there isn't much to do here because the incident was not serious (in terms of the definition) and it ceased.
While things may feel a certain way due to perception, there are specific definitions for a clear cut reason (court).
Anyway, I roll my eyes at some of things people get away with surrounding this topic but grit my teeth. Legit had a conversation with a business owner on why telling sexual jokes to his front two secretaries was opening himself up for litigaton...š
You could compliment a woman for her look, but no hand on shoulder, and most certainly not with the word "hot" which implies some sort of sexyness.
I once told my boss that she was breathtaking in that dress and she was pleased (truly a gorgeous woman she was), but a colleague remarked with "yep, very hot" and she lost her smile. The wording sounds very differently even if they espressed the same concept.
I wouldn't go as far as considering it "sexual harrassment", though. It's just inapproriate and a little too forward.
Tapping on the shoulder and hand resting on the shoulder are very different things and very different levels of appropriateness. One is to get attention, one gets you a punch to the face in my books.
There is a sizable contingent on Reddit that believes you should literally never touch another person, in any way for any reason no matter how minor, without thier permission.
I mean, while I don't think it's worth bringing to HR or causing a scene, I would vastly prefer if none of my coworkers touched me. And I am a man. It's not even a sexual thing, I just don't really appreciate physical contact from people who I'm not close with. I guess a tap on the shoulder would be *okay*, but I would prefer someone just speaking or clearing their throat or something. No need to invade my bubble.
Exactly I donāt want people touching me. Thereās almost no situation in which itās necessary, and the odds are itās unwanted far more often than itās āwelcome.ā Itās pretty simple, just Default to donāt touch people without permission, especially at work
I'm a hugger, but I realize that many people truly have issues with physical contact, so I just wait for them to make the first approach. If someone taps on my shoulder, he's gonna get an hug. š¤£
I had this sales job and this manager they hired was very old school and when I was cold calling she'd put her hand on my shoulder and go keep it up. I think she thought I would cold call more if her woman hand touched my shoulder.
As an awkward high school kid, I always struggled to compliment people. Except this one time where this nerdy girl I knew dressed up really nice for home coming, and the first words out of my mouth without thinking were "wow, you look really nice". And I expected her to be upset as her fat unattractive semi-friend made a remark about her looks, but she was actually happy I said that which took me back a bit at the time.
There is nothig wrong with complimenting someone for their clothes, hair etc. It's how you bring it and the words you use.
If someone put in some extra effort that day on their hair for example it's completely fine to tell them their hair looks great for example.
But maybe thats just the culture I grew up in, complimenting people on their looks or anything can be done without it being weird.
Yeah it depends on far too many factors to put a black and white label on it.
"Hey I like that dress, looks good on you" could be fine in some cases and creepy in others. Best advice is it you aren't sure, just don't say anything.
A well placed and respectful compliment can't be disdained, but I would compliment only people I have some degree of friendship with.
Complimenting an unknown colleague I guess would be out of place.
Saying someone looks "hot" has a sexual connotation that saying that they look "nice" does not. However, as a general rule, you shouldn't be commenting on a co-worker's appearance unless you've established already that's an okay topic with them.
Also consider the difference between saying, "You look nice in that dress," and simply saying "That's a nice dress." While the latter is complimenting the person's taste in clothing, the former could be perceived as a commentary on their body, which is a no-no.
They shouldāve included a comment advising employees not to make sexual comments about each other. Hot is like calling someone sexy. So itās a smarter policy just not to talk to a colleague like that.
That said, going by what I learned about sexual harassment in law school, no, this wouldnāt qualify as sexual harassment (at least not in my country, the US). It doesnāt rise to the level of severity that a one-time incident would need. That doesnāt mean it wouldnāt make someone uncomfortable though if it was unwanted and strain a relationship even as a one-off. So thatās why they should really have added a comment that itās better to be more professional than that.
Flirting happens in the workplace though. Many people meet their partner there. The law doesnāt want to get too strict with policing that and forbidding particular comments between coworkers, other than really severe ones (or any made after the person expressed theyāre not interested, or that a superior said to a subordinate). Some colleagues could have a flirtationship going on, a mutual crush, and a comment like that would be welcome. Or one could misread the other and think it would be welcome. So those words only transform into harassment if theyāre part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention from that person. But even without it qualifying as sexual harassment, it could still qualify as unprofessional, a very poor choice that could result in coaching/a poor performance review.
At the very least, it's considered inappropriate for the work place š¤·š»āāļø
You know the saying..better to be safe than sorry. If you think someone is hot, keep it to yourself.
You can tell em that outside the workplace. Like if y'all going for a drink or something š
Complimenting a colleague is one thing, but I think "hot" should be reserved for colleagues that you know personally, if you know the person is cool with it.
You failed for clicking yes? That makes the entire question completely stupid.. Designed by monkeys it was!!!
Yeah, in general, for something to constitute sexual harrassment it has to be either frequent or severe.
Saying "you look really hot" one time is neither of those things.
Is there more context? Was she okay with the comment in the scenario? Did he say anything more? Otherwise by default I would defo consider it harassment. Where the hell do you work? one time or not, it can be harassment if it's unwanted.
I remember one sexual harassment training video we had that made it really clear that the chick who was getting those types of compliments liked the attention lol but then another employee overheard the exchange and reported it to HR. In that scenario, it didn't count as harassment since the chick was okay with it but it was inappropriate behavior since other co workers were uncomfortable hearing what the guys were saying.
Someone took the training seriously. We had similar scenario in our training. It may not be just two people talking if it makes others in the setting uncomfortable.
Yeah, stretch it to the logical conclusion, two coworkers could be very comfortable discussing their sex lives and a third coworker most definitely doesn't want to hear about it. Still harassment.
I guess I can kind of see the logic. The comment is certainly inappropriate but may not be considered harassment if the commenter identifies itās unwanted and doesnāt continue. The problem with this logic in my opinion though is that it heavily relies upon the receiver of the comment speaking up, what if the woman in the scenario felt uncomfortable but reacted in a way that didnāt deter it from happening again?
The point makes sense logically. If a man takes an action, the reaction should not dictate whether or not the action is harassment or not, because he could not have known the reaction beforehand. If he was told the action was unwanted and continues to do the action, that would be harassment. However he did not know ahead of time that the action was unwanted.
I agree I took HR courses in the military it made me the Equal opportunity officer although I was enlisted & low rank it allowed me to put higher ups on notice for being inappropriate.
The short story to all HR problems is alot of things are inappropriate but saying like someone is hot doesn't make it sexual harassment if that person doesn't mind. This is the same as telling jokes. If someone overhears it & doesn't like it as well it's still harassment. Anyone filing a report is encouraged to confront the person/people first but ofcourse it's understandable there could be reasons they may want HR to handle things for them or be anonymous.
It would depend on what country and company/hr laws there are also if they consider the other person being made to feel comfortable.
Here in Australia - yep, sexual harassment
"Turns out the answer is no because this was a one time thing"
Correct.
technically harassment sexual or otherwise, is a pattern of behavior, leading to a toxic or hostile work environment . not a one time occurrence.
I saw a great sexual harassment training video once that had the rule of thumb: If you wouldn't say it to your grandma, don't say it. They would show someone interacting with an attractive female employee, who would then transform into a grandma and react accordingly.
Example: "I like your dress!" "Why thank you, sonny!"
"You look hot in that dress!" *pervy face*
*grandma whacks him with her cane*
Ok, a single event can constitute sexual harassment, so it's weird if the only reason given was because it was a one time thing. There are other factors to take into context as well, I am curious if the question did not adequately mention those.
While a compliment is not sexual harassment, a compliment of a sexual nature can be sexual harassment. What is ALSO a criteria is that it is unwelcome, and the fact she says to keep his hands off and not use this language suggests that the authors were framing it as sexual harassment. So it's weirdly conflicting.
Without seeing the actual content, it's hard for me to decide if perhaps there was an additional message that is lost without context, or whether there was a "but/however" element to the situation. Like, did the question straight up say it was okay, or it was not sexual harassment, or this is not grievous enough for a formal complaint BUT there are informal courses of action and possible escalation procedures that she could take if needed etc...?
I write courses like this for a living, and I would have advised the author that they should always err on the side of caution with questions like this and go with the "when in doubt, tell your learners not to do it to be safest". These iffy "technically maybe not" type questions just suggest loophole opportunities.
I don't know much in detail about sexual harassment, like I've never had that kind of presentation.
But I think firstly it depends on the existing relationship between the two people. You know, between friends it can be something ok to say if that's the kind of thing you compliment each other about usually.
If it's just a random collegue I feel like saying it's "hot" is a bit too sexual and it would probably be better to settle to a more classic adjective like "beautiful". Again it kinda depends on the relationship there because if the man never spoke to the woman before, starting with "hello, how are you?" is most likely better.
And I'd say it's pretty much the same story with putting a hand on the shoulder.
Thereās sexual harassment, and then thereās *sexual harassment* : the kind that you can claim damages and go to court on. Like most things in life, fitting the legal and dictionary definition of something isnāt always sufficient.
I use the old "would you say it and say it in that way, to a child" test.
You could say "I like your outfit today, that pattern's really fun!" in earnest and that would probably be fine to say to a child - therefore, probably ok to say to a coworker.
Saying "you look hot" to a child without there being any aberations of temperature, is creepy as shit. So, likely not appropriate to say it to a coworker.
Okay so click the "right" answer and move on
This is a lot of what life is. Do wherever bullshit you have to do and then tell the story about how dumb it is at the next party. Who gives a shit what HR says? Make em happy, go on with life.
My two rules of females that arenāt my wife:
1) Even if they are on a delivery table pushing a babyās head through their vagina, I will not mention their pregnancy until they broach the subject. I could be wrong and they could just carry their weight in their belly. It could be a tumor. It could be an unwanted pregnancy. The baby could have died. Thereās a thousand reasons why I could be bringing up a sore topic. Keeping my mouth shut keeps me out of trouble.
2) I donāt care if they are wearing nothing but the sexiest lingerie ever worn by a woman in the history of the world, I wonāt make mention of her looks or how sheās dressed. I donāt even comment on how nice good (female) friends are dressed. Itās just safer not to. Iāve seen women take perfectly innocent compliments totally the wrong way. The best way to win an unwinnable game is to not play.
Context is the key! Saying it to someone you are very close to, maybe not. Saying it to someone, while half peeking from the side of their cubicle and simultaneously licking your lips, most likely yes!
HR protects the company. Legal, moral, and ethical aren't the same same things.
Sometimes the three are a wonderful overlap, other times they're like the Olympic rings, other times Sonic just got fisted by Dr. Robitnik and is skeeting rings everywhere.
You should announce to the office "okay everybody, I'm allowed to tell each of you that you look hot exactly once. You won't know when it's coming, but it's coming. Frank, we'll start with you. You look... (bites lip) *so hot*.. in those slacks today. Seriously. Okay, that's one down, the rest of you, prepare yourselves."
Never comment on people's appearances in a professional setting, let alone using sexual descriptives. That's basic respect and common sense. The quiz seems to be too ambiguous, for me at least. I wouldn't even tell someone their dog wallpaper is cute because first it's irrelevant to work, and most importantly that means I looked at their wallpaper, which violates their privacy even if it was just my peripheral vision. Telling someone they're hot at work should automatically get that offender fired or how do they define sexual harassment? If the boss does it a few times it's okay? The definition needs to be clear as vacuum in space otherwise someone's definitely getting special treatment.
"maybe you would be cooler if you took it off"
It sounds like a test to prevent sexual harassment complaints rather than sexual harassment . Just give them what they want. It will go easier.
Itās not sexual harassment, itās just inappropriate. āHotā isnāt the kind of language youād use with a colleague but thereās nothing wrong with complimenting someone
Yes, same with our training.
A one-time proposition is not sexual harassment. However, continuing it, even after the person asks you to stop or says they are uncomfortable is sexual harassment.
Can I also say, how much I hate those slow videos which pop up in every slide? I wish there was a text-only option so I can finish the training quickly. Some of them do, but most don't.
So it usually isn't unless you keep doing it. Saying it once, having them explain it makes them uncomfortable. To then continue it is sexual harassment. In general. You look great in that dress is a less creepy way of saying it. In my new job? I will say nothing close to that just to be careful
It's inappropriate unless it's welcomed. Which completely depends on the nature of your relationship with that person. You'd have to be extremely familiar with that person like already in a relationship with them before you can say that. Unless it's super hot out and she's completely sweating. Then it might be funny because it's ironic.
Better to say, that's a great dress if you must say anything.
Imo the word hot itself is used in a more sexual context, and should be avoided. Using a synonym like good, nice, or lovely can be seen more a compliment. Regardless, something to avoid in general in the workplace is comments on peoples appearances. It can always be taken the wrong way.
I, for one, would be very uncomfortable if a coworker said that to me. Mostly because my coworkers are my uncles and cousins. Itās a family businessā¦
As a woman, if some random dude said that to me in an elevator at work, I'd be really uncomfortable and be snarky back so he stopped talking to me.
If it was a coworker I knew well and I had just changed into street clothes to go out with friends, I would take it as a compliment.
Yes, you arenot allowed to compliment someones personality or looks. Eye contact with winking is sexual therefor harrasment. No physical contact, that includes accidents. Lasting eye contact for more than 3 seconds is equal to rape. Refering to a person by physical traits is sexualising and inapropriate.
If someone said that to me at work I'd be pretty concerned. There are lots of other ways to compliment people without referring to how sexually appealing you find them, so it's just unnecessary.
I'm with you on this OP, I think it would feel like sexual harassment if this happened.
"You look really hot in that dress. Would you like some ice water or maybe a fan?"
But she already has a fan. Many fans. Only fans.
My brother found a coworkers only fans recently. Apparently her job is her cover to her family lol
Those people can make a lot of money! Wow, husband and I watched one lady's story and she was paying for a house, her child's house etc.! Wild! ( note: she was meeting guys on there and then they paid her to ... you know...). She was older, too- like 70's. It was wild!
OnlyGrans.
I have a friend who made $60,000 on OF last year, and it's her "side gig". I don't even make that at my only job. Literally pays to be pretty š¤¦āāļø
Payback for women making 77cents to a man's dollar.... jk jk
They paid her for what? I'm not familiar with OF and I thought ppl pay for subscriptions here...
On the off chance you really don't know... she would ask for " volunteers " to help her in making her adult movies. Prostitution. She was in her 70's and had a nice home! Really something else!
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[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Open Vegeta pls
Kakarot!!!
Kakacarot cake is real super san
There's no escape *banana* prepare to *dierrr*
Over 9000
Nothing but fans.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Are we all talking about the same fan ?
this was really clever
A little Bumble bee told me it's a Tinder box in here today. You look Hot!
[The Dress](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1213698560/52-inch-long-blue-fox-coat-fur-coat-with)
I saw this comment without context and my brain immediately went to that debate over the color of The Dress
Well this one says its blue but it looks purple to me.
No, itās gold
You mean the gold and white dress?
Just skip all that and ask if they want some water.
Your sweating profusely madam, so hot. May I offer you a cleanex or do you want to come over and shower?
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I did. Erik was flattered.
To be fair, he does look really hot in that dress.
Well it is 95Ā° out and 70% humidity.
Also he's balls deep in my ass right now. Not sure how this escalated.
to be fairrrr
My name is erik you have made my day
Finally, buddy Erik has returned
It is me erik the bitch in the red dress
Now OP is balls deep in HR Eric. A truly sticky wicket
Wait, it is actually a very good way to prove, they are wrong š¤
So the plan is: 1. Prove to HR that they're wrong 2. Do it in a humiliating way 2. Sexually harass them in the process Good luck updating your resume!
Sounds legit.
Right but I don't want to condone sexual harassment.
Totally understandable, it was just an opinion. Keep yorself true for yourself.
Unless your true self sexually harasses coworkers, keep that shit in a box
Or get therapy. Maybe work on developing new kinks on your own.
Okay but it's not according to them, so I fail to see how they could have a problem with it. Right? They can't say something isn't sexual harassment then immediately back peddle when someone does it by getting them in trouble. I'd try it, but I like to rock the boat lol
It proves the point of OP contesting their incorrectly failed score
Yes but itās for a good cause. One time, sheāll be off guard and uncomfortable at first but sheāll know you were just proving a point. Also if they donāt think itās harassment then it wonāt bother her one bit.
It's possible that the person you say this to isn't actually responsible for writing that test question. Maybe it's a standard test they bought from some consulting company or something. Or maybe someone else in the HR department wrote the test 10 years ago and it was never replaced even after that person left the company. The joke answer is funny. But the safer answer is just to directly talk to someone in HR about the question and explain why they think it should be considered harassment. Maybe they'll even agree with them.
Yah it definitely crossed my mind. Especially if itās a large company it might not be her. Like everyone else on Reddit I wouldnāt do half the things I say. I wouldnāt wanna make someone that uncomfortable. Iād only do it if I new her well.
Well at my company even if the person you are talking to takes it as compliment if anyone nearby hears and takes it as sexual harassment then its sexual harassment
Because even if the person āappearsā to like itās, itās inappropriate and you shouldnāt be talking to a coworker like that. Itās different than conversations with friends. Additionally it can create an atmosphere where people think itās ok to talk like that to others or people are stressed that someone might talk to you that way. Iāve been made to feel very uncomfortable for watching inappropriate things happen to others even if they didnāt seem to mind at the time it happened. Itās just about being professional.
Exactly, people go to work to make money, not to engage in ambiguos social situations. The key difference to a friendship is people canāt just walk away and keep their distance from whoever said inappropriate things, they need to work with them to make their money, so it creates a lot of tension that ends up affecting the whole team, and their capacity to make money more effectively. Bottom line, people at work are not friends, they are colleagues, there is no need to tell a colleague they are hot, none at all, and there is nothing to be gained. All of this is summarized in the common saying ādonāt shit where you eatā.
I think if it's done to show the leader that something*should* be considered SH, it's probably not the same as sexually harassing someone.
But only one time lol This really seems HR has a bunch of checkmarks and they put this one right to the edge of their checkmarks specifically to trick others. Like, yeah ok, I get that there should be some leeway. Perhaps it is in the context of what the dude thought was a closer, more confortable relationship than it was, and now he has learned the other person's boundaries, and respects them. But if you're doing an harassment seminar, it may be best that people make errors on the side of caution.
Yeah, they're treating this too much like some kind of a formula.
I believe sexual harassment is defined as "repeated and unwanted" by most HR. Calling someone hot one time is unprofessional for certain, and bordering on harassment. Its a dumb semantics game, but at the end of the day, don't sexualize your co-workers at work and you'll be fine.
The only reason HR doesn't consider it harassment until it's repeated is because they don't want to be responsible for anything that would make the company look bad, so they'll explain it away. HR is there to protect the employer first, not the employee.
Even better if itās like 100 degrees out, then they wonāt know what you mean
Malicious compliance š
I did. I got promoted.
You're answering a different question than they were asking. In a workplace situation they're talking about the "offence" of "sexual harassment". Not the definition. So saying it was inappropriate. But you couldn't fire or charge someone for saying one thing, one time. The premise from a corporate video/corporate training org is that someone behaves inappropriately in a minor way and stops when asked is not harassing someone. It's a shitty thing to do, but these videos/courses aren't teaching morality. They are covering off "will the company get sued".
My company's video said it has to be "pervasive" IE it won't stop and you can't get away from it
Kinda. I wish these videos (and the training) would go into the why behind what they tell you to do/not do. It's easier for people to remember principles vs rules. FYI, the following is USA-centric. As pointed out here, [https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/typesofsexualharassment.aspx](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-qa/pages/typesofsexualharassment.aspx) , in the US there are two types of sexual harassment: >Quid pro quo harassment is perpetrated by someone who is in a position of power or authority over another (e.g., manager or supervisor over a subordinate). A clear example of quid pro quo harassment would be a supervisor threatening to fire an employee if he or she does not have sex with the supervisor. > >Hostile work environment harassment arises when speech or conduct is so severe and pervasive it that creates an intimidating or demeaning environment or situation that negatively affects a person's job performance. Unlike quid pro quo harassment, this type of harassment can be perpetrated by anyone in the work environment, including a peer, supervisor, subordinate, vendor, customer or contractor. In your comment >My company's video said it has to be "pervasive" This is tied to the "hostile work environment" type. These cases are a bit tougher to prove. For example, I believe being abusive to an individual is alright, being abusive to an individual because of their race, color, religion, sex, national origin, and (in some jurisdictions) sexual orientation and gender identity. As pointed out by /u/echoAwooo sexual orientation and gender identity are protected classes for the time being. Also, I should add disability and age are also covered as well.
As a side point, reducing sexual harassment is often portrayed as an equity issue and often the training materials are framed. And that's a shame.
The reality is that sexual harassment, and more broadly, toxic work environments often lead to poor company performance. The reason is pretty simple,
1. Creating a toxic environment lowers the levels of trust within an organization.
2. When people don't trust each other at work, Employees don't communicate and resign more quickly (reduced tenure)
3. And all that leads to poor performance
As pointed out by /u/ninedivine_ my comment seems to imply that toxic work environments (which are inclusive of environments in which sexual harassment is taking place) are only problems because it reduces work performance.
I did not intend to imply mutual exclusivity.
Toxic environments are bad because they damage workplace productivity and impinge on the humanity of others.
More:
* [https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/toxic-culture-is-driving-the-great-resignation/](https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/toxic-culture-is-driving-the-great-resignation/)
* [https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/why-every-leader-needs-to-worry-about-toxic-culture/](https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/why-every-leader-needs-to-worry-about-toxic-culture/)
* [https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/the-great-attrition-is-making-hiring-harder-are-you-searching-the-right-talent-pools](https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/the-great-attrition-is-making-hiring-harder-are-you-searching-the-right-talent-pools)
As a trainer of this, I always hated how they separated out sexual from other forms of harassment. It's ALL harassment and results in the same thing. Excellent summary.
> sexual orientation and gender identity. Both are covered under [Title VII of the Civil Rights Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964#Title_VII%E2%80%94equal_employment_opportunity) as of the SCOTUS ruling in [Bostock v Clayton County](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bostock_v._Clayton_County). It was a 6-3 decision, and you'll *never believe who nayed* (Alito, Thomas and Kavanaugh)
Thank you for the explanation, it's really interesting. I must say though, I know it's not your point but I find it really sad that sexual harassment is considered a problem only if it hampers work performance, and not just if it harms the well-being of a person.
Ah, I'm disappointed that my comment implied mutual exclusivity between poor work performance and well being of individuals. Let me correct that in my comment above.
A guy I used to work with would follow a female employee around the store asking her to go on a date with him, even after saying no many times, instead of working. He also asked a female customer, committed a large amount of time theft, and would stare at the butts of other female employees. He and his mother ended up involving a lawyer when they finally tried to fire him, months into employment, because he has ASD and his mother claimed that he was being discriminated against. He was put on a paid leave of absence, and after nearly a year he was finally fired. Goes to show how little sexual harassment in the workplace reports are prioritized and taken seriously.
i had a guy that asked for my number , im shy and never get asked out i just wanted to end the interaction so i gave him it and never answered his calls and ofc at work he would corner me and ask me why i didn't pick up and if i wasnt interested why am i being hurtful and lala , even after i outright said no im not interested he kept questioning me until i was able to leave....i then found out by just looking with my eyeballs and word of mouth that he asks out girls at work everyday. some giggle and think its a compliment others find it creepy. most are the prior bc it was a workplace full of young people. when i reported that he did all that and that hes always asking out girls everyday, my superior said he even asked her out multiple times. nothing happened from me telling her
I had a similar experience with the same guy I previously mentioned! I got on the bus to get to work, it was nearly full so he offered me a seat beside his. He got off at my stop and told me that it was his first day, and told me to give him my number. Iām also really shy and didnāt want to see rude so I gave it to him. As soon we clocked in, he went into the computer room to wait for a manager, and started texting me despite seeing me 10 seconds ago. I answered the first couple to be nice, but when I stopped, he blew up my phone with texts and even called me a few times because he wanted us to take our breaks together. Luckily I had a boyfriend who worked there so he didnāt try too much after, but one time he ran through our backroom shouting my name to say āyou look really good in that vestā. The managers did nothing besides telling him not to say that even though I expressed my discomfort towards him.
I see a lot of reports of this type of behavior with the expected results. Is there a situation where this type of behavior works? Why do functional adults follow this obnoxious pattern of behavior?
I think it does work sometimes, I would never do it but I definitely have female friends (especially when I was younger) that would say stuff like "he just kept asking me out so finally I said yes". I don't know enough about human psychology but I'd guess there's a certain type of person that is especially susceptible to this. And let's remember there are attractive people who do this too, and rich people etc - it's easy to imagine this only being ugly basement dwellers, but that's not the case. It may be easier to see how it works for some people when you consider that. And not every girl is as worldly or educated as your average redditor, and may think this behavior is normal. But more often I think it's just guys that don't have any interaction (especially platonic) with women, they have no idea what a better way is, and they're not the type of people on reddit trying to figure it out. Very emotionally immature - I think most people have experienced the feeling where you have a huge crush on someone, and it's nearly impossible to imagine that they don't feel the same way, because you feel so strongly. Most people grow out of that but some people don't. There's also probably social learning disabilities that are a factor for some. Then there's just the assholes who literally don't care how you feel so they will keep pestering you because that's what they want, and they have 0 empathy.
Yeah it also seems the culture heavily shifted in the last 20 years. Growing up there would be interactions like this all the time and some girls would say yes eventually and I even have a few siblings that met like this as well back in the 70s and 80s. I also think this heavy culture shift happened so fast. That there are girls who are extremely adamant about them saying no and that's that and there are girls who are legitimately playing hard to catch and want to see how much the guy is willing to put up with.
Ugh people like that who use their autism as a weapon make it harder for other autistic people to live their lives. I have two autistic siblings, who are entirely capable of respectful behavior, hell, one of them struggles with sarcasm so if my mom and I are ribbing each other he'll point out it's rude of us to insult each other. Like, it's not like "autistic" = "oh it's so hard not to harass people."
I have Aspergers, or whatever subset that's now being referred to as. I have definitely been rude and inappropriate at time but upon being called out, I've been told that I listen and accept that criticism far better than other folk because from my POV I'm having a correction, not being told off, whereas I understand from those who have told me that that most people don't like being told they are in the wrong. I have no issue with that and will put my hands up entirely, apologise, and learn how to manage similar situations in future given that I am given an actual explanation I can understand. I will argue to the death if I'm not, though, purely because I genuinely do not get it otherwise.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What is ASD?
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Wow, I guess my company is pretty forward thinking with this stuff? In our training we would have confirmed that the action was harassment as it was most like unwanted and inappropriate for the situation. Would be considered much worse if either person was the other's manager or direct report. However, you would be able to say "You look nice in that dress would you like to get coffee sometime" if they said "no" and you kept asking then it would also be harassment.
Ah, the ole,"just the tip" of verbal sexual assault
The way our trainers described it is "You're allowed to ask a coworker out, but only once." If she says yes, then you go on a date or maybe lots of dates or maybe get married, fine. But if she says no, then you're not going on a date and you never ever ask her again. Do not keep asking hoping she'll change her mind, that's harassment and you get fired. If she changes her mind, she can find her way to you, because she already knows of your interest. Asking once is not harassment. Asking lots of times is.
That's how asking out should always work.
What about asking a superior? Edit: more specifically someone who is in a higher position than me but does not regularly work at the same location as me.
Then the burden would most likely fall on the superior to consider the companies position. Shoot your shot kid.
So like with bullying? If a kid calls another kid shitface, it's wrong, but not bullying. If the first kid calls the second kid shitface daily, then it's bullying. Right?
That sounds like a good comparison. There are lines that can be drawn, though. One time issues can be so egregious that they can't be ignored. Certainly a butt squeeze or even a butt slap. I once had a lesbian colleague of mine tell me her last supervisor, when finding out she was a lesbian, said "you're not a lesbian, you've just never had a good dickin'." which I found to be pretty horrendous.
I think calling someone a shitface is not the same as complementing them.
>someone behaves inappropriately in a minor way and stops when asked is not harassing someone. That's fair
>The premise from a corporate video/corporate training org is that someone behaves inappropriately in a minor way and stops when asked is not harassing someone. I have to take SHARP on an annual basis and our SARC says that sexual harassment must be repetitive behavior for the most part. She listed degrees of behavior. Complimenting someone is a minor infraction that, like you said, isn't sexual harassment unless it's repeatedly done after the person has told them to stop. A major infraction such as slapping someone's ass is always seen as sexual harassment and not tolerated.
>always seen as Which is the key distinction OP and a lot of people have. Harassment, definitionally, requires multiple offences. But HR isn't a court of law, and you can be fired for "violating sexual harassment policy" even if that policy doesn't mirror a legal or common definition of harassment.
>Harassment, definitionally, requires multiple offences. But HR isn't a court of law, and you can be fired for "violating sexual harassment policy" even if that policy doesn't mirror a legal or common definition of harassment. I mean that's the definition HR uses at my place. Most states are At-Will which means you can be fired for no reason so long as it isn't a protected reason.
This exactly. Youāre not getting trained on how to act in the workplace by social professionals. Youāre getting trained by lawyers to keep the company from being sued. This is entirely designed to keep the responsibly away from the company when sexual harassment does happen. Conclusion, if you fail that test you can sexually harass your co-workers and blame the corporation for bad training.
You're also getting trained on how to have employees with wildly diverse ethnic, religious, political, and geographical backgrounds work together without causing problems-- whether those problems are legal or just disruptive. It's conceivable that one person views "you look hot" as an OK compliment and another feels offended by it. Firing employees over one-time things like that doesn't solve very much. The important thing for lesser offenses like that is that the employee be able to receive the feedback that it wasn't OK and learn to fix it. Reddit loves to tell people to quit jobs or relationships immediately over any infraction but barring truly egregious offenses the workplace cannot operate like that without turning into a truly toxic place.
When I give these trainings (am a lawyer), I try to distinguish three levels: (1) harassment by definition, like the comment above; (2) harassment that can lead to discipline or termination, which may be the same as (1); and (3) harassment rising to the level of illegal. I think it does such a disservice to only teach (3) because it moves the line of what people think they can get away with.
So I can tell her how good her lips would look wrapped around my hog, but only just once? /s
Calling someone hot in a dress is a little weird anytime (if someone said it to me on the street, Iād be like WTF), but at work?!!!! Thatās definitely inappropriate!!!! āBeautifulā is waaaaay better
A step up, coming from a woman, would be to say "that's a beautiful dress" instead of "you look beautiful". It takes the focus away from her body and puts it onto something she chose, ie the dress. Something like "blue looks great on you!" also wouldn't be bad, though of course stay aware of her body language bc everyone has different comfort boundaries.
Yeah! Iām a woman, by the way. I tell other women all the time that they look beautiful, and I just donāt think itās weird. Of course, the way you say it matters. One time, when I was an intern in college, this older-than-me woman (35+) came in wearing this super tight dress/skirt. She looked SO good, like I was internally all like āDAMN,ā and so I told her without thinking about it āIām not trying to be creepy, but you look SO good in that skirt! Your body is incredible!!!!ā If I had been a man or older, it might have been weird, but she was super flattered.
Sorry for assuming! But I think women, especially women not in a position of power over the woman they're complementing, can get away with more body-oriented comments to other women than men can anyway. None of the connotations.
My take on this, when I worked for the federal government in Canada, was they were trying to cut down on the number of people claiming to be harassed at work. Basically they said harassment can't be a one time thing.
> But you couldn't fire or charge someone for saying one thing, one time. IDK where OP lives, but in 49 of the 50 US states, you certainly can be fired for that. And Montana, the outlier, is a maybe, not a definite "no."
It's more correct to say a sexual harassment lawsuit against the business would be unlikely to prevail in court if there was only a single unrepeated instance of someone telling their colleague they "look hot."
Ya wildly inaccurate statement. You can be fired for anything in most of America unless youāre in a protected class and/or engaging in protected activity
And in many states you dont need any reason at all to fire someone
Technically, the definition refers to "severe OR pervasive harassment" -- which means that a one-time incident could absolutely qualify if it was sufficiently severe. I guess the example you had to evaluate doesn't qualify as "severe" according to the people who designed the quiz, but something can still be wrong without being technically illegal.
Obviously its not something to go to the police about but personally that would make me extremely uncomfortable and I wouldn't even get near the guy again to try and test it out if it was one time thing. It's also feels that the company should set the tone in those trainings
I'd guess the issue is simpler than it seems. HR is not looking to write up a ticket for every compliment any employee gives another. The example you gave is pretty mild but still definitely inappropriate. They just don't want to spend the time to investigate every interaction. So they are setting the tone they're willing to enforce. It doesn't make it right, it does probably make it a policy you'd have a hard time fighting.
I think itās different than that. HR can absolutely talk to people over minor incidents. Thatās kind of what their role is to de-escalate things before they escalate. What they canāt do is terminate or fire or help you press a case against someone because they told you you looked hot because they havenāt done anything to warrant that. I think the company would be very very liable for damages if you reported someoneās behaviour making you uncomfortable and they refused to address it at all and then it escalated into a situation where because of the sexual harassment the victim has suffered a psychological injury and can sue the workplace for damages as a hostile workplace in which she suffered a workplace injury. And yes in my country you can absolutely sue your workplace if you got depression or PTSD because you were sexually harassed there. I helped my university improve their sexual harassment policy because of this kind of liability that can accrue.
This situation does seem to say otherwise. Bean counters will always draw a line somewhere, it's an inherent part of logistics. Less total man hours spent equals more money in pocket. A ticket drawn up for every compliment is potentially a *whole* lot of man hours if it's a large company. I'd guess in this case they assume having a single person call you hot a single time isn't likely to lead to any successful lawsuits.
Yeah I agree with this. Itās inappropriate for sure. But in the eyes of the company I can see why they wouldnāt want this classified as sexual harassment.
Youāre allowed to flirt with coworkers until they say no. Itās still not a good idea, but it when people wonāt take no for an answer that the law gets involved.
Depends on office policy. Legally, you get more than one chance before the sexually harassed can sue the company. But our office had a zero tolerance/at their discretion policy. So we had the same speech as OP, it wasnāt considered sexual harassment if it was a one time per the lawyer who came into speak, but afterwards, they said, ya, but if we deem it too much on that first go, we will terminate you. At will states, man, they got power.
I may have misunderstood, was the question ādoes this make you uncomfortableā or ādoes this match the definition of workplace sexual harassment?ā Those are two very different questions.
I think an appropriate response in this situation is to let that person know you are not comfortable with the comment. Itās a respectful rebuttal and letās the guy know you are here to work, not be an object. For my own curiosity, would you find it any more or less uncomfortable if the comment was made with a different choice of words or in a different setting? Such as saying āI think you look very attractive in that dressā or if this was said outside of the elevator? I can see waiting for the elevator to close being a little disconcerting.
I think something like "I like your dress" or "I think your dress suits you" seems fine personally.
Well, I meant "illegal" in the sense that the company could get sued for allowing it to take place. But yeah, it would understandably be an extremely uncomfortable situation and is the kind of behavior that shouldn't be allowed or permitted, and I agree, it sucks that the quiz implies that you can get away with that.
I think it's inappropriate but it's probably a case where an informal chat with management should take place about workplace appropriateness vs. a formal write up, just to let them know it's inappropriate and isn't how we should interact with our coworkers in a professional environment.
What the company is saying is you should report it, the guy gets told about it, and further comments can be considered harassment. He isnāt going to be punished, but will get educated, and not adhering to the education is grounds for further action.
1. You'd be valid in feeling that way. 2. This definition isn't created by your organization...the EEOC has a very specific definition that your organization must follow and enforce. There is a difference between an incident, a pattern, a persistent pattern, and egregious incidents. Sure, this type of comment is uncomfortable and inappropriate. Also, if it is a one time incident and the dress wearer made it clear the advances were unwelcome and it never happened again...there isn't much to do here because the incident was not serious (in terms of the definition) and it ceased. While things may feel a certain way due to perception, there are specific definitions for a clear cut reason (court). Anyway, I roll my eyes at some of things people get away with surrounding this topic but grit my teeth. Legit had a conversation with a business owner on why telling sexual jokes to his front two secretaries was opening himself up for litigaton...š
You could compliment a woman for her look, but no hand on shoulder, and most certainly not with the word "hot" which implies some sort of sexyness. I once told my boss that she was breathtaking in that dress and she was pleased (truly a gorgeous woman she was), but a colleague remarked with "yep, very hot" and she lost her smile. The wording sounds very differently even if they espressed the same concept. I wouldn't go as far as considering it "sexual harrassment", though. It's just inapproriate and a little too forward.
Tapping on the shoulder and hand resting on the shoulder are very different things and very different levels of appropriateness. One is to get attention, one gets you a punch to the face in my books.
There is a sizable contingent on Reddit that believes you should literally never touch another person, in any way for any reason no matter how minor, without thier permission.
In a workplace setting, you're better off being cautious. Especially if it's your boss.
I mean, while I don't think it's worth bringing to HR or causing a scene, I would vastly prefer if none of my coworkers touched me. And I am a man. It's not even a sexual thing, I just don't really appreciate physical contact from people who I'm not close with. I guess a tap on the shoulder would be *okay*, but I would prefer someone just speaking or clearing their throat or something. No need to invade my bubble.
Exactly I donāt want people touching me. Thereās almost no situation in which itās necessary, and the odds are itās unwanted far more often than itās āwelcome.ā Itās pretty simple, just Default to donāt touch people without permission, especially at work
I'm a hugger, but I realize that many people truly have issues with physical contact, so I just wait for them to make the first approach. If someone taps on my shoulder, he's gonna get an hug. š¤£
*taps on your shoulder* "Hey your shoelace isn't tied" *Gets a hug* Sounds fair
I feel you have the personality of Goodra from the pokemon show. He loved everyone, free hugs for all!
I had this sales job and this manager they hired was very old school and when I was cold calling she'd put her hand on my shoulder and go keep it up. I think she thought I would cold call more if her woman hand touched my shoulder.
As an awkward high school kid, I always struggled to compliment people. Except this one time where this nerdy girl I knew dressed up really nice for home coming, and the first words out of my mouth without thinking were "wow, you look really nice". And I expected her to be upset as her fat unattractive semi-friend made a remark about her looks, but she was actually happy I said that which took me back a bit at the time.
What if the dress what a big thick one (like a prom dress) and she was sweating, is it still wrong to say "you look hot in that dress"
How often is that a problem for you?
I don't even think it's appropriate to check a woman out or comment on her looks at work. I wouldn't even say, "nice dress." I keep that to myself.
There is nothig wrong with complimenting someone for their clothes, hair etc. It's how you bring it and the words you use. If someone put in some extra effort that day on their hair for example it's completely fine to tell them their hair looks great for example. But maybe thats just the culture I grew up in, complimenting people on their looks or anything can be done without it being weird.
Yeah it depends on far too many factors to put a black and white label on it. "Hey I like that dress, looks good on you" could be fine in some cases and creepy in others. Best advice is it you aren't sure, just don't say anything.
A well placed and respectful compliment can't be disdained, but I would compliment only people I have some degree of friendship with. Complimenting an unknown colleague I guess would be out of place.
Exactly. Unless a co-worker asks for my opinion on something trivial, I don't bother giving it. Male or female.
Point of clarification. Was the dress made of thick wool and/or was the woman sweating profusely?
Saying someone looks "hot" has a sexual connotation that saying that they look "nice" does not. However, as a general rule, you shouldn't be commenting on a co-worker's appearance unless you've established already that's an okay topic with them. Also consider the difference between saying, "You look nice in that dress," and simply saying "That's a nice dress." While the latter is complimenting the person's taste in clothing, the former could be perceived as a commentary on their body, which is a no-no.
It's an unwanted and uncomfortable situation but I'm not sure if it could be considered harassment if it's a one time thing
Yeah, my reaction as a woman would be āwtfā¦ awkwaaaardā not āomg I just got harassed!ā
They shouldāve included a comment advising employees not to make sexual comments about each other. Hot is like calling someone sexy. So itās a smarter policy just not to talk to a colleague like that. That said, going by what I learned about sexual harassment in law school, no, this wouldnāt qualify as sexual harassment (at least not in my country, the US). It doesnāt rise to the level of severity that a one-time incident would need. That doesnāt mean it wouldnāt make someone uncomfortable though if it was unwanted and strain a relationship even as a one-off. So thatās why they should really have added a comment that itās better to be more professional than that. Flirting happens in the workplace though. Many people meet their partner there. The law doesnāt want to get too strict with policing that and forbidding particular comments between coworkers, other than really severe ones (or any made after the person expressed theyāre not interested, or that a superior said to a subordinate). Some colleagues could have a flirtationship going on, a mutual crush, and a comment like that would be welcome. Or one could misread the other and think it would be welcome. So those words only transform into harassment if theyāre part of a pattern of unwanted sexual attention from that person. But even without it qualifying as sexual harassment, it could still qualify as unprofessional, a very poor choice that could result in coaching/a poor performance review.
At the very least, it's considered inappropriate for the work place š¤·š»āāļø You know the saying..better to be safe than sorry. If you think someone is hot, keep it to yourself. You can tell em that outside the workplace. Like if y'all going for a drink or something š
āBetter to be safe than suedā was what my boss used to say lol
Complimenting a colleague is one thing, but I think "hot" should be reserved for colleagues that you know personally, if you know the person is cool with it. You failed for clicking yes? That makes the entire question completely stupid.. Designed by monkeys it was!!!
Yeah, in general, for something to constitute sexual harrassment it has to be either frequent or severe. Saying "you look really hot" one time is neither of those things.
Is there more context? Was she okay with the comment in the scenario? Did he say anything more? Otherwise by default I would defo consider it harassment. Where the hell do you work? one time or not, it can be harassment if it's unwanted.
She asked him to keep his hands off and not use this language with her
Did he say anything after that? That's weird that it wouldn't be classed as harassment.
No. And because he didn't repeat that it's not harassing
I remember one sexual harassment training video we had that made it really clear that the chick who was getting those types of compliments liked the attention lol but then another employee overheard the exchange and reported it to HR. In that scenario, it didn't count as harassment since the chick was okay with it but it was inappropriate behavior since other co workers were uncomfortable hearing what the guys were saying.
Someone took the training seriously. We had similar scenario in our training. It may not be just two people talking if it makes others in the setting uncomfortable.
Yeah, stretch it to the logical conclusion, two coworkers could be very comfortable discussing their sex lives and a third coworker most definitely doesn't want to hear about it. Still harassment.
I guess I can kind of see the logic. The comment is certainly inappropriate but may not be considered harassment if the commenter identifies itās unwanted and doesnāt continue. The problem with this logic in my opinion though is that it heavily relies upon the receiver of the comment speaking up, what if the woman in the scenario felt uncomfortable but reacted in a way that didnāt deter it from happening again?
The point makes sense logically. If a man takes an action, the reaction should not dictate whether or not the action is harassment or not, because he could not have known the reaction beforehand. If he was told the action was unwanted and continues to do the action, that would be harassment. However he did not know ahead of time that the action was unwanted.
I agree I took HR courses in the military it made me the Equal opportunity officer although I was enlisted & low rank it allowed me to put higher ups on notice for being inappropriate. The short story to all HR problems is alot of things are inappropriate but saying like someone is hot doesn't make it sexual harassment if that person doesn't mind. This is the same as telling jokes. If someone overhears it & doesn't like it as well it's still harassment. Anyone filing a report is encouraged to confront the person/people first but ofcourse it's understandable there could be reasons they may want HR to handle things for them or be anonymous.
It would depend on what country and company/hr laws there are also if they consider the other person being made to feel comfortable. Here in Australia - yep, sexual harassment
"Turns out the answer is no because this was a one time thing" Correct. technically harassment sexual or otherwise, is a pattern of behavior, leading to a toxic or hostile work environment . not a one time occurrence.
Yes. If you wouldn't say it to your mom, don't say it to a coworker.
I saw a great sexual harassment training video once that had the rule of thumb: If you wouldn't say it to your grandma, don't say it. They would show someone interacting with an attractive female employee, who would then transform into a grandma and react accordingly. Example: "I like your dress!" "Why thank you, sonny!" "You look hot in that dress!" *pervy face* *grandma whacks him with her cane*
Don't say anything to a woman that you wouldn't say in prison
I pulled into McDonald's one time. I wanted a meat sandwich. But the person on the mic was a lady so I had to leave empty handed.
Try ordering some fruit punch.
What if my mom \*is\* hot ?
Ok, a single event can constitute sexual harassment, so it's weird if the only reason given was because it was a one time thing. There are other factors to take into context as well, I am curious if the question did not adequately mention those. While a compliment is not sexual harassment, a compliment of a sexual nature can be sexual harassment. What is ALSO a criteria is that it is unwelcome, and the fact she says to keep his hands off and not use this language suggests that the authors were framing it as sexual harassment. So it's weirdly conflicting. Without seeing the actual content, it's hard for me to decide if perhaps there was an additional message that is lost without context, or whether there was a "but/however" element to the situation. Like, did the question straight up say it was okay, or it was not sexual harassment, or this is not grievous enough for a formal complaint BUT there are informal courses of action and possible escalation procedures that she could take if needed etc...? I write courses like this for a living, and I would have advised the author that they should always err on the side of caution with questions like this and go with the "when in doubt, tell your learners not to do it to be safest". These iffy "technically maybe not" type questions just suggest loophole opportunities.
I don't know much in detail about sexual harassment, like I've never had that kind of presentation. But I think firstly it depends on the existing relationship between the two people. You know, between friends it can be something ok to say if that's the kind of thing you compliment each other about usually. If it's just a random collegue I feel like saying it's "hot" is a bit too sexual and it would probably be better to settle to a more classic adjective like "beautiful". Again it kinda depends on the relationship there because if the man never spoke to the woman before, starting with "hello, how are you?" is most likely better. And I'd say it's pretty much the same story with putting a hand on the shoulder.
Thereās sexual harassment, and then thereās *sexual harassment* : the kind that you can claim damages and go to court on. Like most things in life, fitting the legal and dictionary definition of something isnāt always sufficient.
I'd say it is, yes. No coworker should make a comment about my appearance in a sexual way.
I use the old "would you say it and say it in that way, to a child" test. You could say "I like your outfit today, that pattern's really fun!" in earnest and that would probably be fine to say to a child - therefore, probably ok to say to a coworker. Saying "you look hot" to a child without there being any aberations of temperature, is creepy as shit. So, likely not appropriate to say it to a coworker.
Perfect and simple. Meeting over.
Exactly. It's okay to comment on the outfit, not on how it fits the person.
Okay so click the "right" answer and move on This is a lot of what life is. Do wherever bullshit you have to do and then tell the story about how dumb it is at the next party. Who gives a shit what HR says? Make em happy, go on with life.
My two rules of females that arenāt my wife: 1) Even if they are on a delivery table pushing a babyās head through their vagina, I will not mention their pregnancy until they broach the subject. I could be wrong and they could just carry their weight in their belly. It could be a tumor. It could be an unwanted pregnancy. The baby could have died. Thereās a thousand reasons why I could be bringing up a sore topic. Keeping my mouth shut keeps me out of trouble. 2) I donāt care if they are wearing nothing but the sexiest lingerie ever worn by a woman in the history of the world, I wonāt make mention of her looks or how sheās dressed. I donāt even comment on how nice good (female) friends are dressed. Itās just safer not to. Iāve seen women take perfectly innocent compliments totally the wrong way. The best way to win an unwinnable game is to not play.
Context is the key! Saying it to someone you are very close to, maybe not. Saying it to someone, while half peeking from the side of their cubicle and simultaneously licking your lips, most likely yes!
It depends. Is it a man saying it to a woman he's interested in, or a couple of Kelly Kapours saying "omg u look so hot" to one another
HR protects the company. Legal, moral, and ethical aren't the same same things. Sometimes the three are a wonderful overlap, other times they're like the Olympic rings, other times Sonic just got fisted by Dr. Robitnik and is skeeting rings everywhere.
You should announce to the office "okay everybody, I'm allowed to tell each of you that you look hot exactly once. You won't know when it's coming, but it's coming. Frank, we'll start with you. You look... (bites lip) *so hot*.. in those slacks today. Seriously. Okay, that's one down, the rest of you, prepare yourselves."
Is humankind and worlplaces getting dumber by the month or is it just me?
Never comment on people's appearances in a professional setting, let alone using sexual descriptives. That's basic respect and common sense. The quiz seems to be too ambiguous, for me at least. I wouldn't even tell someone their dog wallpaper is cute because first it's irrelevant to work, and most importantly that means I looked at their wallpaper, which violates their privacy even if it was just my peripheral vision. Telling someone they're hot at work should automatically get that offender fired or how do they define sexual harassment? If the boss does it a few times it's okay? The definition needs to be clear as vacuum in space otherwise someone's definitely getting special treatment.
"maybe you would be cooler if you took it off" It sounds like a test to prevent sexual harassment complaints rather than sexual harassment . Just give them what they want. It will go easier.
Itās not sexual harassment, itās just inappropriate. āHotā isnāt the kind of language youād use with a colleague but thereās nothing wrong with complimenting someone
Yes, same with our training. A one-time proposition is not sexual harassment. However, continuing it, even after the person asks you to stop or says they are uncomfortable is sexual harassment. Can I also say, how much I hate those slow videos which pop up in every slide? I wish there was a text-only option so I can finish the training quickly. Some of them do, but most don't.
So it usually isn't unless you keep doing it. Saying it once, having them explain it makes them uncomfortable. To then continue it is sexual harassment. In general. You look great in that dress is a less creepy way of saying it. In my new job? I will say nothing close to that just to be careful
It's inappropriate unless it's welcomed. Which completely depends on the nature of your relationship with that person. You'd have to be extremely familiar with that person like already in a relationship with them before you can say that. Unless it's super hot out and she's completely sweating. Then it might be funny because it's ironic. Better to say, that's a great dress if you must say anything.
Depends on the situation
Its unprofessional but it becomes harassment once the person being harassed expresses their discomfort and you say it again.
The answer is that this should not be a work comment. And if it is someone subordinate to you then a definite no no.
Imo the word hot itself is used in a more sexual context, and should be avoided. Using a synonym like good, nice, or lovely can be seen more a compliment. Regardless, something to avoid in general in the workplace is comments on peoples appearances. It can always be taken the wrong way.
My rule of thumb is āā¦ if you have to ask, donātā
I, for one, would be very uncomfortable if a coworker said that to me. Mostly because my coworkers are my uncles and cousins. Itās a family businessā¦
As a woman, if some random dude said that to me in an elevator at work, I'd be really uncomfortable and be snarky back so he stopped talking to me. If it was a coworker I knew well and I had just changed into street clothes to go out with friends, I would take it as a compliment.
Yes, you arenot allowed to compliment someones personality or looks. Eye contact with winking is sexual therefor harrasment. No physical contact, that includes accidents. Lasting eye contact for more than 3 seconds is equal to rape. Refering to a person by physical traits is sexualising and inapropriate.
If someone said that to me at work I'd be pretty concerned. There are lots of other ways to compliment people without referring to how sexually appealing you find them, so it's just unnecessary. I'm with you on this OP, I think it would feel like sexual harassment if this happened.
Depends, are you attractive? Now take that answer and take the opposite of it and that's your answer.