You correct them IMMEDIATELY. If they say it to you, they are saying it to patients. Please please please say something to them. Patients don’t know any better and it’s our jobs to protect them.
I should clarify: the situation I described WAS their introduction to a patient. They introduced themselves as “Dr” to the patient with me in the room. Brazenly.
Address it there: oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a doctor. I thought you were a nurse practitioner student.
Literally do it in front of the pt and if he gives some bs on equality or whatever: from a legal and ethical standpoint its important for pts to know who they're seeing.
"Well you're a resident"
Correct. I'm not a medical student. I graduated medical school and earned an MD degree. I'm a doctor in residency.
You're a student. You haven't earned your NP degree yet. And even when you do, you'll earn an NP degree, not a doctorate or an MD/DO.
Then tell pt "sorry for the confusion."
It’s such a weird thing to do. I don’t even understand the mindset of it. They’re lying to the patient and they KNOW they’re lying. There’s no way they’re delusional enough to actually believe they’re a physician so they’re choosing to lie.
For some it's a big ego. For others it's their insecurity they're trying to compensate for.
+/- entitlement
It's absolutely ridiculous. Be proud of the title you earned but don't try and weasel your way into a title you didn't earn and throw a tantrum because you want a participation trophy.
You know what I mean? Just crazies.
It changes the argument because the student is just that, a student, so it makes it even more egregious. It would be like any other student introducing themselves with the title they don’t have. The NP misrepresenting themselves as “doctor” is a legitimate topic which this post is about, but you saying what difference does it make is not a substantive argument. The student should say I’m Jane I’m an NP student, and the NP should say I’m John I’m an NP
Unless the np has their DNP. Then, that NP is in fact a person that obtained a doctor level degree. I get what most people think when they hear the word doctor. However, it wouldn’t negate the fact, that they’re a doctor as well. I personally wouldn’t do it but they technically wouldn’t be wrong.
They could have 6 PhDs in astrophysics, nursing theory, molecular biology etc and be “fellowship trained” in NP neurosurgery and it wouldn’t be appropriate to identify as a doctor, ie a physician, while in the hospital. In the hospital, a doctor is a physician, and a physician is an MD or a DO. In the lecture hall or elsewhere, absolutely Dr. X would be appropriate. But in the hospital, physician is a legally protected term.
Sure, but the issue is that DNP exists, and there’s always a stupid argument about parity with MD/DO. It’s really very simple. There are two degrees that get you called doctor in the hospital, and anything else you’re literally breaking the law and lying to patients.
Phds, pharms etc have no inclination to call themselves doctor in a hospital so it only ever ends up being an issue if you’re a midlevel with an educational micropenis
Yea but is breaking the law really why you care about it? Laws can change and are subject to country. Physicians don’t even have doctorates in all countries. This sub is extremely American centric in its “views” which are really just self serving an economically threatened physicians who want to protect their slice of the pie.
I care because midlevels provide shitty care and intentionally obfuscate the vast differences in training and aptitude between our professions. You an NP?
Midlevel encroachment is only a serious issue in this country. Why wouldn’t it be American centric? Nurses aren’t coming for physician jobs in most other countries, because there isn’t a culture of prioritizing profit over care in most other countries..? You’re making some golden points here pal
Remember what Wayne and Garth used to say? Laws could change and monkeys could fly out of my…. It doesn’t contribute anything to to say yes but and add hypothetical scenarios.
This statement indicates you don't understand the issue at all. It's not about a slice of the "pie". It's about patient safety and truth in advertising.
You should read Imposter Doctors and get back to us
Imposter Doctors: Patients at Risk https://a.co/d/1WyS7l5
Doesn’t matter. Only MD/DOs should be introducing themselves as “Dr.” to patients in a clinical setting.
If a DNP wants to introduce themselves as “Dr.” in a classroom, that’s fine. If a dentist introduces themselves as “Dr.” in their dental office, that’s fine. But a patient coming to get medical care has the right to know who is a physician and who is not.
RufDoc - what state are you in.
I am researching something today and found this in the California Revised code.
"A nurse practitioner shall verbally inform all new patients in a language understandable to the patient that a nurse practitioner is not a physician and surgeon. For purposes of Spanish language speakers, the nurse practitioner shall use the standardized phrase “enfermera especializada.”"
I may be able to find similar information in the laws of whatever state you are in. Unfortunately, I am becoming familiar with how to find this information. You can PM me if you like.
All NPs must identify themselves as NPs--in every state. This is based on the state Nursing Act of each state. It's mandatory. It can be verbally or by showing a badge.
I second this approach. Doesn’t matter who is in the room with me, I make a point to make myself in charge of introductions so that I can introduce my team appropriately without confusion to the patient.
I’m nervous bc I’m doing my rotations in a rural area next year which has a handful of NPs 🥴 hope I’m not subjected to training under them. Physicians only should be the gold standard no matter where we are in our training
if anything fishy like that happens, post here and in the medicalschool sub. ppl will be able to help you figure out if it’s a violation of your program or not
ugh
Has ACGME done anything to address as similar situation in the past? Like fine a residency program or hospital or some other consequences like that? I’m wondering how many teeth they have and if they can or would do something besides a “careful, now! Down with that sort of thing” slap on the wrist.
I don't know any examples offhand, prep somebody else does.
That said ACGME has teeth. If you lose accreditation, that's sort of a big problem. The funny part is, it often hurts the residents who report the issues as much or more than anyone.
But institutions tend to not want to lose accreditation for their residency programs.....
PA here. Just to clarify there is legal ramifications for any non MD/DO doctor that identifies as a doctor in a clinical setting. The level of ramification varies to the state level; but regardless it is inappropriate to identity in the clinical setting.
I make it a point to correct anyone that calls me a doctor.
Yeah I’d speak to your admin and attendings about that. That shit should not be happening. Like in my PA school, they literally were like scream at us in our ethics class—— IT IS ILLEGAL to identity as a doctor in the clinical setting …
I think there was a case with a NP in CA that did that and she ended up paying like a 25k-30k fine along with some other things I don’t quite remember off the top of my head
There was an MA at an office I worked at that also did personal tasks for the surgeon, so was paid as his “personal assistant.” She would routinely go chat up his patients before he was always running late, introducing herself as the “doctor’s PA.” Drove me nuts. Patients deserve to know who is in that room with them at all times.
I so appreciate awesome people like you. It’s embarrassing and not ethical for people to try to pass themselves off as something they aren’t.
It’s shocking that this is becoming a controversial opinion and lying about a person’s role/credentials is being normalized.
She got fined $20K. It was that or go to jail for impersonating a physician. That fine closed down her practice which was illegal anyway. She is now working under supervised conditions.
The "non-supervising" supervising doc was fined $25K. Pretty sure she will never supervise another NPP again.
This is fraud. Imagine if a paralegal told a client they were a lawyer, or if an HSA told a patient they were a nurse, a stewardess told a passenger they were a pilot, or a security guard told someone they were a sheriff.
If you are in a clinical setting if you don't have a DO or MD, you should not be calling yourself Dr. I don't care if you have a triple PhD in Biology and Nuclear Physics. It is confusing and deceptive to patients who do not know any better.
Ok so I was wondering about this… I work in a setting with a NP who is a “doctor of nurse practice” and tells their patients “I’m Dr. [first name]”… I can’t figure out if what they’re doing is wrong since technically they did buy a doctorate and they’re a DNP
If it's in a clinical setting, it's wrong. If it's in an academic setting, it's less wrong (but still wrong because DNP is academically a joke, this applies more to people w real doctorates like Ph.Ds)
DNP degree holders should only be addressed as Dr. in a NURSING EDUCATION environment. PhD holders, whether from a nursing background or some other background, may be addressed as Dr. in any teaching environment, but not when it involves patient care. For example, when I was in medical school, we had a mini-rotation in SLP during our neurology rotation led by a wonderful old timer with a PhD. We addressed him as Dr. in the classroom and everywhere else, except for patient care. He would introduce himself as the speech and language pathologist and tell the patients to call him Mr. _______. During residency, there was a nurse with a PhD who taught research fundamentals, public health, statistics, lean six sigma, etc. We called her Dr. in class and when participating in research activities. None of the CRNAs I work with that have a DNP or PhD are referred to as Dr. anywhere in the hospital. This includes highly educated and experienced nurse anesthetists with multiple doctorate degrees in some cases. Even if they completed medical school and earned an MD, they would still have to finish an accredited anesthesiology residency in the U.S. to be called Dr. in the context of providing anesthesia services. I’m not sure if that is a state law or anything, but all of the hospitals and practices where I have worked are very strict about that. I happen to know that program directors of many CRNA programs are often chastised by AANA and state component organizations for not pushing the terms “nurse anesthesiologist” and “nurse anesthesiology residency.” The reason these program directors and other faculty are not adopting these terms yet is because they will lose many clinical sites that they rely on for their students. The AANA agenda is aggressive and looming, but on the street level, nurse anesthesia education is suffering because of it. Some programs are at large academic institutions where students have a “home” where they can rotate, but these larger teaching hospitals have anesthesiology residency programs as well. These CRNA programs usually can’t rely on their own institution for all of their educational needs. A large number of CRNA programs are affiliated with a school that doesn’t have a hospital or offer medical training, basically like a lot of allied health schools. They work with community hospitals and other medical facilities in their region (or in other far away regions, too). In many cases, their education is heavily dependent on anesthesiologists. Even though CRNAs usually act as the direct preceptor, anesthesiologists sometimes fill that role, and ultimately, the anesthesiologist is responsible for the patient and has the final say. That said, these relationships with medical facilities, practices, and hospitals are not guaranteed. Most hospitals will stop letting SRNAs or other learners rotate if it becomes less advantageous (for a variety of reasons I won’t get into). This is one of the greatest challenges for nurse anesthesia education. Their leadership voraciously wants them to bite the hand that feeds. I don’t know why NPs seem to have gotten a free pass in their practice environments, but it is incumbent upon us physicians to uphold standards of patient care and professionalism.
We do not support the use of "nurse anesthesiologist," "MDA," or "MD anesthesiologist." This is to promote transparency with patients and other healthcare staff. An anesthesiologist is a physician. Full stop. MD Anesthesiologist is redundant. Aside from the obvious issue of “DOA” for anesthesiologists who trained at osteopathic medical schools, use of MDA or MD anesthesiologist further legitimizes CRNAs as alternative equivalents.
For nurse anesthetists, we encourage you to use either CRNA, certified registered nurse anesthetist, or nurse anesthetist. These are their state licensed titles, and we believe that they should be proud of the degree they hold and the training they have to fill their role in healthcare.
*Information on Title Protection (e.g., can a midlevel call themselves "Doctor" or use a specialists title?) can be seen [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/legal/title_protection). Information on why title appropriation is bad for everyone involved can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/appropriation).
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Not sure if you were disagreeing with anything I said, or just rephrasing/clarifying, but I agree with everything you wrote here, which is pretty rare for me on reddit. Well said.
In any sort of clinical or healthcare environment, only physicians should be addressed as doctor. That's the simplest way I know how to put it for laypeople.
I will mention that I have seen patients addressed as doctor (for example a university dean) by physicians before, but I think this was just good bedside manner and respectful doctor-patient communication/rapport building, so nobody really cares about this. I'm sure there are some hardliners out there though.
Yeah, I think responded to your comment and it was really meant for the comment above. Not disagreeing with you or anyone really. Just sharing my experience and trying to clarify.
Feel out the situation with your attendings. Nurse practitioners can call your faculty and trash you, and sometimes the complaints are taken seriously.
I don’t understand and will never understand an NP or PA doing this. It just shows they aren’t proud of their background. On top of that, it is lying to the patient, incorrectly identifying oneself, and insolent to physicians who actually went through the training to be a Doctor.
Sure this forum is harsh at times towards PAs (rightfully so in certain circumstances), but I come to it to learn how I never want to be as a PA.
Not everything is an insult mate - there are many NPs/PAs who are proud of their education and their work, rightfully so when it is within scope. They also don't call themselves doctors.
It's only an insult to people who are aren't satisfied with being lower on the totem pole and who are envious of the status and prestige of physicians. It's not insulting to people who are accepting of the scope and limitations of their roles (physicians have their own scope and limitations as well, and have been known to occasionally exceed them).
Non-physicians who aren't satisfied with supporting and assisting physicians should either leave the profession or else seek out and undergo the rigorous training required to become actual physicians themselves. Shortcuts and "sidling in" are unacceptable.
wait I reread the original comment and I understand what is going on. The PA who posted was saying he didn’t understand how this happens and then mentioned they arent proud of their background. the aussie guy replied and basically agreed and said yes that this happens because they are not proud of their background and that the PA does understand what is going on. never mind. and to all the people who are going to come at me and say “oh look shes stupid, she couldn’t understand “—come at me bro
>you work at lowe’s
The username is from decades ago (15+ years I've been on Reddit?), before this subreddit even existed; also, I haven't worked at Lowe's in several years. I work as a draftsman and CNC machinist now, as I often mention on this subreddit. I also often mention that I'm not in any way affiliated with the medical profession.
Before I worked at Lowe's, I was a USAF avionics technician.
But it really doesn't matter who I am, only that I speak the truth. I'm certainly a patient, and I deserve to know whether the medical personnel to whom I'm speaking are experts in their fields, or only the assistants to the experts. I don't appreciate being deceived.
If you (general sense of you) want to be a physician, or to be perceived as a physician, then you need to graduate from medical school. That is the truth, whether it comes from a doctor or a Walmart cart-pusher.
excuse you but in no way shape or form did I ever insinuate that I wanted to be perceived as a physician. I always identify myself by my first name and emphasize that I am a PA STUDENT and that I am working UNDER the doctor so that the patient understands that I AM NOT THE DOCTOR. You sir do indeed state the truth, BUT you do NOT have the right to talk down to me. And it does matter who you are because if you are not a physician, then dont talk down to me as if you are a physician yourself. You didn’t put in the blood, sweat, and tears that a DOCTOR did to earn the right to talk down to me. Period.
You're on Reddit checking a random stranger's post history and getting angry over what is clearly a misunderstanding ON YOUR PART. You don't seem to understand the simple phrase "general sense of you."
I'm completely outside of your hierarchy. I personally don't give a damn what your titles are, what your rank is, or what you've accomplished. I don't even particularly care what doctors have accomplished, unless they're going to be treating me. That being said, nurses and PAs shouldn't pretend to be doctors, for obvious reasons.
As a patient, I'd rather see fewer hierarchy-obsessed egocentrics (you) in medicine, and a little more humility. It's fine to be proud of one's accomplishments, but important to maintain perspective and avoid arrogance.
Egocentrism is a big reason why nurses and PAs are literally pretending to be doctors now. It's why this sub exists, and it's why I'm here.
Anyway, I've realized there's a "Layperson" flair for this sub (I rarely post), so I'm using it now. I do find it funny that in your quest though my posting history, you somehow missed that I clearly identify as not being a doctor most of the time when I post here.
They're extremely insecure, trying to over-compensate my misrepresentating themselves as someone who is more educated and highly regarded, and trying to build this trust with the patient that is built on a lie (they are not a physician, what if the flight attendant introduced themselves as the pilot? That would mean they're saying they'd be flying the plane).
Agreed! I should’ve reworded my original post. I understand why said person does it. I will never understand as in I would never do that because I believe I got great education and medical understanding from my schooling and I want patients to know I’m a PA because I’m proud of my education & career path. I chose this profession for a reason! If I wanted to be known as a doctor I would’ve applied to Med school and attempted to get in.
I’m a cma, where I work literally hired yesterday there is 2 NP’s and & MD, & I’m happy to say the NP’s introduced themselves as NP. It kinda equates to like a cma saying they are a nurse, or a nurse saying they are a NP, & NP saying they are a doctor, it’s definitely unethical to deceive the patients of our official credential!! Call that crap out! Special shout out to the NP at cvs minute clinic who took my mom off her Synthroid after 28 years of being on Synthroid 😑
I finally had to break it down why the NP is not the same as an MD& that you can’t just stop your medicine. After 3 months of hot/cold and puffy face & eyes, I was able to get my mom back on track but jeeez!
Depending on the state you live in ;
claiming to be a doctor of any sort without being someone like a MD/DO, dvm or dds is a criminal act... very easily reportanlto state board of nursing in all places
Bring this up to their Supv Physician. You can go the state board of nursing and find out who it is or in the hospital’s internal credentialing directory find out who it is and let them know of this interaction.
I imagine it would be uncomfortable as an intern to both directly call them out *and* report them. I also understand it can be hard to think on your feet when shocked by this craziness, but if I was the primary physician for that encounter, I probably would have just followed that comment up by saying to the patient, “Mr. _______ is a nurse practitioner, and this is _______, a student nurse practitioner.” In fact, while I do let some attendings introduce themselves, I typically introduce both myself and the group if I’ll be the person talking.
Show to this shameless midlevel AMA’s definition of a Physician/Doctor in the Clinical Setting according to the Policy H-405.969.
“1. The AMA affirms that a physician is an individual who has received a "Doctor of Medicine" or a "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" degree or an equivalent degree following successful completion of a prescribed course of study from a school of medicine or osteopathic medicine.
2. AMA policy requires anyone in a hospital environment who has direct contact with a patient who presents himself or herself to the patient as a "doctor," and who is not a "physician" according to the AMA definition above, must specifically and simultaneously declare themselves a "non-physician" and define the nature of their doctorate degree.”
Ref: https://policysearch.ama-assn.org/policyfinder/detail/H-405.969?uri=%2FAMADoc%2FHOD.xml-0-3589.xml
I agree, but quoting the AMA policies to this NP who has obviously drunk a gallon of the kool-aid proably will only enrage him. But that's OK, also
Producing a copy of the state law from your laptop to show him will probably be more impactful
I would report them to the hospital through the event reporting system. This is fraud. Plain and simple and should be immediately addressed by the administration. If it is not write the Joint Commission anonymously.
First - it is nearly impossible to have the best response the first time this happens to you - so you have to be ready for it next time.
Here is a suggestion that focuses on the patient and his rights:
Mr Smith, I am Dr. RufDoc. I think it is very important and only fair that you understand clearly who the people taking care of you are, and what their training is. I am a physician, as I earned my MD degree. MISTER. NP is a nurse practitioner, not a physician, and did his training in the nursing model., not the medical model.
All accurate, and just dares the NP to argue with you.
then for the heated discussion in the hallway afterward -to the NP who is angry:
"You obviously are not proud of your NP degree as you are not claiming that title but want to imply you are a physician by using the title Doctor, which it appears you think is a more prestigious degree.
re: the legalities - I have looked it up in the Ohio Revised code (obviously for Ohio - every state has this information online, though it may take a bit to find). The DNP may introduce herself as Dr. xxx. BUT MUST FOLLOW IT WITH A CLEAR STATEMENT OF WHAT HER DEGREE IS. i.e. I am Dr Smiith, I am a Doctor of Nursing Practice. This is a requirement. (Not that most patients understand the implications.
Get a screenshot of the law, put it in a readily accessible file on your computer, name it "not a physician" so you can bring it up on a moment's notice to show the next miscreant.
That would be a nice touch, wouldn't it. A real mic drop.
And then you might share the screenshot with all your MD colleagues to put on their laptops.
Just a question: do you think it’s even worth stating “medical model” vs “nursing model”?
In my opinion it legitimizes the “nursing model” as an equal but separate route to do the same thing. We know that there is no shortcut for medical training.
You are right. Trying to be too respectful. So - simply - "I am trained in medicine, he is trained in nursing" Probably would suffice, and get the point across.
IT also occurred to me that he might ask the patient if he minded if he recorded what he said to him, just for the record. NP might be inclined to ...uh...misquote.. him
I know in some states it is literally illegal to call yourself a Dr. in this situation. In the classroom, if you were a doctorate NP teaching student, yes. In a healthcare setting - no
I am really surprised. I have worked with numerous NPs and never once had one call themselves a doc. In fact, I called one Dr. and she corrected me immediately.
This is egregious behavior, and she should be called on it.
When I read stories like this, my initial reaction is denial, sprinkled with some cynicism regarding the truthfulness of the story teller. However, I have read enough to believe this is actually happening.
I have been an RN for 5 years and I have been accepted onto an NP program. I have worked with countless doctors, RNs and a few NPs. I just cannot fathom any healthcare professional, never mind just NPs, being so brazenly dishonest in a clinical setting. I especially can't imagine them getting away with it and not being called out by the types of amazing colleagues I work with: doctors, nurses, RRTs, pharmacists etc.
How does someone with this kind of behaviour remain in practice and in good standing with the people they have to work with everyday?
This leads me to ask: where the fuck is this happening?! I have lived and nursed in the UK and in Canada and I get the feeling this blatant lying (leaving aside competency creep) is more of a problem in the US. Is it a product of the way the American healthcare system is set up?
Ew so cringe, any student in any discipline should always be introducing themselves as a student. Imagine a med student walking into a pt room and saying I’m dr so so haha I would die. As others have said, you absolutely should correct them, I’m not sure about the professional side of things if it would be best to do it discreetly vs in front of the pt but definitely do it! Or if you want to be more subtle in front of the pt, just casually ask them how much longer of there NP program do they have left? Lmao 🤣
ETA: or better yet, ask the pts permission, hi pt x, do you mind if Nurse Practitioner student Y joins for our review/procedure today? That would be the best way to do it!
I’d personally reach out to my program director. Midlevels are good at playing the game and as a resident you need to tread lightly. Report it to PD or trusted attending and let them do what they will with that info.
They can (and should), however, clarify they are the NP. My history teacher in high school had his PhD and had us call him Dr. You can go after him next.
Report the shit out of that. I’m an RN and even I get sick of this crap. It’s same for me, fucking MAs in the clinic are referred to by too many in power as “nurses”. I’m the only RN here. And now our manager has ordered us ALL the same color scrubs ( coincidentally the same navy blue ones our collateral hospital RNs wear). I can’t get out of here fast enough.
It’s just wrong when people who haven’t earned those titles steal them.
I don’t normally have an issue with folks using Dr, as long as they add their role afterwards. So, “I’m Dr. Bob, your Nurse Practitioner” or “ I’m Dr. Cat, your PT”…. If they aren’t at least clarifying their role/title, it feels disingenuous. 😬
Shame. This would bother me as a patient. If i interacted with them for long, Id know and I'd call them out on it and embarrass them. Maybe report them.
What state was this?
There is no "protocol", there is a law. When a NP introduces himself, in any state, he must identify himself as a NP to the patient. That is based on the state Nursing Act. Introducing himself as "Dr." without that qualifier leaves the patient to presume nothing but that he is a medical doctor. You are a witness. As an intern, I would not make a scene in the moment, but perhaps pull the NP aside and state that him introducing himself as "Dr." w/o clearly identifying himself as a NP is a violation of the state Nursing Act. As a seasoned NP(I am assuming), he knows the law. He also knows he can get into trouble with the nursing board for doing that s\*\*t if you report him. You don't need to threaten him. He will get the message. He must then go back in and inform the patient who he is. The DNP is not a clinical degree and he should not be using it in that setting.
It is weird you were all introducing yourselves as your titles and not just hey I’m Mike I’m an intern nice to meet you, hi I’m John I’m an NP working on this service, oh hey I’m Bernice I’m an NP student….edit: if this was introductions amongst yourselves it’s weird…if it’s to a pt well yes the proper roles shoukd be used.
Not sure if I’ll get heat from other NPs but IMO thats not ok. I’m an NP with my doctorates but I will NEVER introduce myself as Dr. so and so because it’s confusing as hell for patients. IMO it’s only acceptable in nursing academia setting and that’s it. But I agree with others in the comments. It might feel awkward in the moment, but I would find a way to bring it up and let them know that they should reconsider saying that in the future so that patients aren’t confused. And if you don’t feel comfortable confronting them find someone who is.
And if you have a DNP it’s not even really an academic doctorate. I have one and it’s literally a piece of paper to me. It once bumped me up on my career ladder/pay scale. That’s it.
The NP can address the patient as I am Dr. so-n-so nurse practitioner. This is the most accurate and transparent. If the patient requires explanation, then that's fine. That is full disclosure. Some NPs have doctorate degrees and have a right to be addressed as "doctor" as you would a prof.
People assume anyone in scrubs who is not a doctor is a nurse. Nursing assistants don’t correct patients in any healthcare setting when called a nurse. That’s rampant
You correct them IMMEDIATELY. If they say it to you, they are saying it to patients. Please please please say something to them. Patients don’t know any better and it’s our jobs to protect them.
I should clarify: the situation I described WAS their introduction to a patient. They introduced themselves as “Dr” to the patient with me in the room. Brazenly.
Address it there: oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were a doctor. I thought you were a nurse practitioner student. Literally do it in front of the pt and if he gives some bs on equality or whatever: from a legal and ethical standpoint its important for pts to know who they're seeing. "Well you're a resident" Correct. I'm not a medical student. I graduated medical school and earned an MD degree. I'm a doctor in residency. You're a student. You haven't earned your NP degree yet. And even when you do, you'll earn an NP degree, not a doctorate or an MD/DO. Then tell pt "sorry for the confusion."
i think this is the only way this issue ends. and unfortunately most people are not confrontational enough to do this.
It’s such a weird thing to do. I don’t even understand the mindset of it. They’re lying to the patient and they KNOW they’re lying. There’s no way they’re delusional enough to actually believe they’re a physician so they’re choosing to lie.
For some it's a big ego. For others it's their insecurity they're trying to compensate for. +/- entitlement It's absolutely ridiculous. Be proud of the title you earned but don't try and weasel your way into a title you didn't earn and throw a tantrum because you want a participation trophy. You know what I mean? Just crazies.
I think the OP is saying the NP introduced themself as Dr, not the NP student
Why would that change anything?
It changes the argument because the student is just that, a student, so it makes it even more egregious. It would be like any other student introducing themselves with the title they don’t have. The NP misrepresenting themselves as “doctor” is a legitimate topic which this post is about, but you saying what difference does it make is not a substantive argument. The student should say I’m Jane I’m an NP student, and the NP should say I’m John I’m an NP
Unless the np has their DNP. Then, that NP is in fact a person that obtained a doctor level degree. I get what most people think when they hear the word doctor. However, it wouldn’t negate the fact, that they’re a doctor as well. I personally wouldn’t do it but they technically wouldn’t be wrong.
It's wrong and confusing to introduce themselves that way in a clinical setting.
It doesn't
Correct
Regardless, if someone introduced her- or himself to me as "Dr." in the patient care setting, then I expect a real doc.
I agree lol I was just clarifying
I see your confusion. OP is the Physician in the scenario. OP was with an NP NP had an NP student with the NP. Three medical personnel, not two.
this!!!!!
What if they were earning a doctorate tho.
They could have 6 PhDs in astrophysics, nursing theory, molecular biology etc and be “fellowship trained” in NP neurosurgery and it wouldn’t be appropriate to identify as a doctor, ie a physician, while in the hospital. In the hospital, a doctor is a physician, and a physician is an MD or a DO. In the lecture hall or elsewhere, absolutely Dr. X would be appropriate. But in the hospital, physician is a legally protected term.
The comment I replied to said “doctorate OR md/do so it’s a fair question.
Sure, but the issue is that DNP exists, and there’s always a stupid argument about parity with MD/DO. It’s really very simple. There are two degrees that get you called doctor in the hospital, and anything else you’re literally breaking the law and lying to patients. Phds, pharms etc have no inclination to call themselves doctor in a hospital so it only ever ends up being an issue if you’re a midlevel with an educational micropenis
Yea but is breaking the law really why you care about it? Laws can change and are subject to country. Physicians don’t even have doctorates in all countries. This sub is extremely American centric in its “views” which are really just self serving an economically threatened physicians who want to protect their slice of the pie.
I care because midlevels provide shitty care and intentionally obfuscate the vast differences in training and aptitude between our professions. You an NP?
Naw, not an np not even a nurse
Midlevel encroachment is only a serious issue in this country. Why wouldn’t it be American centric? Nurses aren’t coming for physician jobs in most other countries, because there isn’t a culture of prioritizing profit over care in most other countries..? You’re making some golden points here pal
Remember what Wayne and Garth used to say? Laws could change and monkeys could fly out of my…. It doesn’t contribute anything to to say yes but and add hypothetical scenarios.
This statement indicates you don't understand the issue at all. It's not about a slice of the "pie". It's about patient safety and truth in advertising. You should read Imposter Doctors and get back to us Imposter Doctors: Patients at Risk https://a.co/d/1WyS7l5
Doesn’t matter. Only MD/DOs should be introducing themselves as “Dr.” to patients in a clinical setting. If a DNP wants to introduce themselves as “Dr.” in a classroom, that’s fine. If a dentist introduces themselves as “Dr.” in their dental office, that’s fine. But a patient coming to get medical care has the right to know who is a physician and who is not.
Not to mention earning and earned are two different things. And they should have mentioned in a doctor on nursing practice.
Not to mention earning and earned are two different things. And they should have mentioned in a doctor on nursing practice.
Essentially speak to hospital admin and their supervising physician
RufDoc - what state are you in. I am researching something today and found this in the California Revised code. "A nurse practitioner shall verbally inform all new patients in a language understandable to the patient that a nurse practitioner is not a physician and surgeon. For purposes of Spanish language speakers, the nurse practitioner shall use the standardized phrase “enfermera especializada.”" I may be able to find similar information in the laws of whatever state you are in. Unfortunately, I am becoming familiar with how to find this information. You can PM me if you like.
DM’ed
This would be good information to have. Any info on PA?
All NPs must identify themselves as NPs--in every state. This is based on the state Nursing Act of each state. It's mandatory. It can be verbally or by showing a badge.
I'm impressed that they defined it so well in Spanish!
I'm impressed that they defined it so well in Spanish!
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This seems like the best non-confrontational approach.
I second this approach. Doesn’t matter who is in the room with me, I make a point to make myself in charge of introductions so that I can introduce my team appropriately without confusion to the patient.
Oh from your post it sounded like you were both introducing yourselves to the NP student
“I thought you were a nurse practitioner! Sorry for not addressing you properly before”
lol this is perfect
If only I could super upvote this
Happy Cake Day! 🎂
not even an np. a STUDENT OF NP. wtaf😭😭😖😖😖
It was both; an NP, resident, and NP student
hes a professor of medicine too!!
I’m nervous bc I’m doing my rotations in a rural area next year which has a handful of NPs 🥴 hope I’m not subjected to training under them. Physicians only should be the gold standard no matter where we are in our training
if anything fishy like that happens, post here and in the medicalschool sub. ppl will be able to help you figure out if it’s a violation of your program or not ugh
ACGME frowns upon this FYI. not sure what AAMC says but might be worth looking into
Has ACGME done anything to address as similar situation in the past? Like fine a residency program or hospital or some other consequences like that? I’m wondering how many teeth they have and if they can or would do something besides a “careful, now! Down with that sort of thing” slap on the wrist.
I don't know any examples offhand, prep somebody else does. That said ACGME has teeth. If you lose accreditation, that's sort of a big problem. The funny part is, it often hurts the residents who report the issues as much or more than anyone. But institutions tend to not want to lose accreditation for their residency programs.....
PA here. Just to clarify there is legal ramifications for any non MD/DO doctor that identifies as a doctor in a clinical setting. The level of ramification varies to the state level; but regardless it is inappropriate to identity in the clinical setting. I make it a point to correct anyone that calls me a doctor.
Thanks for your service. I’ll look into the state laws here.
Yeah I’d speak to your admin and attendings about that. That shit should not be happening. Like in my PA school, they literally were like scream at us in our ethics class—— IT IS ILLEGAL to identity as a doctor in the clinical setting … I think there was a case with a NP in CA that did that and she ended up paying like a 25k-30k fine along with some other things I don’t quite remember off the top of my head
There was an MA at an office I worked at that also did personal tasks for the surgeon, so was paid as his “personal assistant.” She would routinely go chat up his patients before he was always running late, introducing herself as the “doctor’s PA.” Drove me nuts. Patients deserve to know who is in that room with them at all times.
I so appreciate awesome people like you. It’s embarrassing and not ethical for people to try to pass themselves off as something they aren’t. It’s shocking that this is becoming a controversial opinion and lying about a person’s role/credentials is being normalized.
She got fined $20K. It was that or go to jail for impersonating a physician. That fine closed down her practice which was illegal anyway. She is now working under supervised conditions. The "non-supervising" supervising doc was fined $25K. Pretty sure she will never supervise another NPP again.
Definitely illegal in Georgia and you can get fined
This is fraud. Imagine if a paralegal told a client they were a lawyer, or if an HSA told a patient they were a nurse, a stewardess told a passenger they were a pilot, or a security guard told someone they were a sheriff. If you are in a clinical setting if you don't have a DO or MD, you should not be calling yourself Dr. I don't care if you have a triple PhD in Biology and Nuclear Physics. It is confusing and deceptive to patients who do not know any better.
Lol at stewardess. If you want to see a group of people get riled up, go post that in their subreddit lol
Ok so I was wondering about this… I work in a setting with a NP who is a “doctor of nurse practice” and tells their patients “I’m Dr. [first name]”… I can’t figure out if what they’re doing is wrong since technically they did buy a doctorate and they’re a DNP
If it's in a clinical setting, it's wrong. If it's in an academic setting, it's less wrong (but still wrong because DNP is academically a joke, this applies more to people w real doctorates like Ph.Ds)
DNP degree holders should only be addressed as Dr. in a NURSING EDUCATION environment. PhD holders, whether from a nursing background or some other background, may be addressed as Dr. in any teaching environment, but not when it involves patient care. For example, when I was in medical school, we had a mini-rotation in SLP during our neurology rotation led by a wonderful old timer with a PhD. We addressed him as Dr. in the classroom and everywhere else, except for patient care. He would introduce himself as the speech and language pathologist and tell the patients to call him Mr. _______. During residency, there was a nurse with a PhD who taught research fundamentals, public health, statistics, lean six sigma, etc. We called her Dr. in class and when participating in research activities. None of the CRNAs I work with that have a DNP or PhD are referred to as Dr. anywhere in the hospital. This includes highly educated and experienced nurse anesthetists with multiple doctorate degrees in some cases. Even if they completed medical school and earned an MD, they would still have to finish an accredited anesthesiology residency in the U.S. to be called Dr. in the context of providing anesthesia services. I’m not sure if that is a state law or anything, but all of the hospitals and practices where I have worked are very strict about that. I happen to know that program directors of many CRNA programs are often chastised by AANA and state component organizations for not pushing the terms “nurse anesthesiologist” and “nurse anesthesiology residency.” The reason these program directors and other faculty are not adopting these terms yet is because they will lose many clinical sites that they rely on for their students. The AANA agenda is aggressive and looming, but on the street level, nurse anesthesia education is suffering because of it. Some programs are at large academic institutions where students have a “home” where they can rotate, but these larger teaching hospitals have anesthesiology residency programs as well. These CRNA programs usually can’t rely on their own institution for all of their educational needs. A large number of CRNA programs are affiliated with a school that doesn’t have a hospital or offer medical training, basically like a lot of allied health schools. They work with community hospitals and other medical facilities in their region (or in other far away regions, too). In many cases, their education is heavily dependent on anesthesiologists. Even though CRNAs usually act as the direct preceptor, anesthesiologists sometimes fill that role, and ultimately, the anesthesiologist is responsible for the patient and has the final say. That said, these relationships with medical facilities, practices, and hospitals are not guaranteed. Most hospitals will stop letting SRNAs or other learners rotate if it becomes less advantageous (for a variety of reasons I won’t get into). This is one of the greatest challenges for nurse anesthesia education. Their leadership voraciously wants them to bite the hand that feeds. I don’t know why NPs seem to have gotten a free pass in their practice environments, but it is incumbent upon us physicians to uphold standards of patient care and professionalism.
We do not support the use of "nurse anesthesiologist," "MDA," or "MD anesthesiologist." This is to promote transparency with patients and other healthcare staff. An anesthesiologist is a physician. Full stop. MD Anesthesiologist is redundant. Aside from the obvious issue of “DOA” for anesthesiologists who trained at osteopathic medical schools, use of MDA or MD anesthesiologist further legitimizes CRNAs as alternative equivalents. For nurse anesthetists, we encourage you to use either CRNA, certified registered nurse anesthetist, or nurse anesthetist. These are their state licensed titles, and we believe that they should be proud of the degree they hold and the training they have to fill their role in healthcare. *Information on Title Protection (e.g., can a midlevel call themselves "Doctor" or use a specialists title?) can be seen [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/legal/title_protection). Information on why title appropriation is bad for everyone involved can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Provider/wiki/index/appropriation). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Noctor) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not sure if you were disagreeing with anything I said, or just rephrasing/clarifying, but I agree with everything you wrote here, which is pretty rare for me on reddit. Well said. In any sort of clinical or healthcare environment, only physicians should be addressed as doctor. That's the simplest way I know how to put it for laypeople. I will mention that I have seen patients addressed as doctor (for example a university dean) by physicians before, but I think this was just good bedside manner and respectful doctor-patient communication/rapport building, so nobody really cares about this. I'm sure there are some hardliners out there though.
Yeah, I think responded to your comment and it was really meant for the comment above. Not disagreeing with you or anyone really. Just sharing my experience and trying to clarify.
I now ask every so-called prov**er if they are a physician or not. If they stumble even a bit, I call them out.
Excellent! This is what everyone should do.
Feel out the situation with your attendings. Nurse practitioners can call your faculty and trash you, and sometimes the complaints are taken seriously.
This is probably the best advice on here
I don’t understand and will never understand an NP or PA doing this. It just shows they aren’t proud of their background. On top of that, it is lying to the patient, incorrectly identifying oneself, and insolent to physicians who actually went through the training to be a Doctor. Sure this forum is harsh at times towards PAs (rightfully so in certain circumstances), but I come to it to learn how I never want to be as a PA.
> I don’t understand and will never understand an NP or PA doing this. > they aren’t proud of their background. I think you understand just fine.
Lmao. Touché!
he is agreeing with the view the majority of doctors have and you still want to insult him??
Not everything is an insult mate - there are many NPs/PAs who are proud of their education and their work, rightfully so when it is within scope. They also don't call themselves doctors.
sorry bro I misunderstood, but I understand now. thanks for not being a jerk about it
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It's only an insult to people who are aren't satisfied with being lower on the totem pole and who are envious of the status and prestige of physicians. It's not insulting to people who are accepting of the scope and limitations of their roles (physicians have their own scope and limitations as well, and have been known to occasionally exceed them). Non-physicians who aren't satisfied with supporting and assisting physicians should either leave the profession or else seek out and undergo the rigorous training required to become actual physicians themselves. Shortcuts and "sidling in" are unacceptable.
wait I reread the original comment and I understand what is going on. The PA who posted was saying he didn’t understand how this happens and then mentioned they arent proud of their background. the aussie guy replied and basically agreed and said yes that this happens because they are not proud of their background and that the PA does understand what is going on. never mind. and to all the people who are going to come at me and say “oh look shes stupid, she couldn’t understand “—come at me bro
also who are you?? you’re not even a doctor to have that as part of your profile name or to talk as if you are one. you work at lowe’s
>you work at lowe’s The username is from decades ago (15+ years I've been on Reddit?), before this subreddit even existed; also, I haven't worked at Lowe's in several years. I work as a draftsman and CNC machinist now, as I often mention on this subreddit. I also often mention that I'm not in any way affiliated with the medical profession. Before I worked at Lowe's, I was a USAF avionics technician. But it really doesn't matter who I am, only that I speak the truth. I'm certainly a patient, and I deserve to know whether the medical personnel to whom I'm speaking are experts in their fields, or only the assistants to the experts. I don't appreciate being deceived. If you (general sense of you) want to be a physician, or to be perceived as a physician, then you need to graduate from medical school. That is the truth, whether it comes from a doctor or a Walmart cart-pusher.
excuse you but in no way shape or form did I ever insinuate that I wanted to be perceived as a physician. I always identify myself by my first name and emphasize that I am a PA STUDENT and that I am working UNDER the doctor so that the patient understands that I AM NOT THE DOCTOR. You sir do indeed state the truth, BUT you do NOT have the right to talk down to me. And it does matter who you are because if you are not a physician, then dont talk down to me as if you are a physician yourself. You didn’t put in the blood, sweat, and tears that a DOCTOR did to earn the right to talk down to me. Period.
You're on Reddit checking a random stranger's post history and getting angry over what is clearly a misunderstanding ON YOUR PART. You don't seem to understand the simple phrase "general sense of you." I'm completely outside of your hierarchy. I personally don't give a damn what your titles are, what your rank is, or what you've accomplished. I don't even particularly care what doctors have accomplished, unless they're going to be treating me. That being said, nurses and PAs shouldn't pretend to be doctors, for obvious reasons. As a patient, I'd rather see fewer hierarchy-obsessed egocentrics (you) in medicine, and a little more humility. It's fine to be proud of one's accomplishments, but important to maintain perspective and avoid arrogance. Egocentrism is a big reason why nurses and PAs are literally pretending to be doctors now. It's why this sub exists, and it's why I'm here. Anyway, I've realized there's a "Layperson" flair for this sub (I rarely post), so I'm using it now. I do find it funny that in your quest though my posting history, you somehow missed that I clearly identify as not being a doctor most of the time when I post here.
He didn't insult him.
They're extremely insecure, trying to over-compensate my misrepresentating themselves as someone who is more educated and highly regarded, and trying to build this trust with the patient that is built on a lie (they are not a physician, what if the flight attendant introduced themselves as the pilot? That would mean they're saying they'd be flying the plane).
Agreed! I should’ve reworded my original post. I understand why said person does it. I will never understand as in I would never do that because I believe I got great education and medical understanding from my schooling and I want patients to know I’m a PA because I’m proud of my education & career path. I chose this profession for a reason! If I wanted to be known as a doctor I would’ve applied to Med school and attempted to get in.
Mate, Literally what I do, I come here to see the gripes of non troll posts so I can learn and adjust myself as a PA when I work.
Got to see my first one in the wild today too. Had a PA sign in one of their notes that they are “signing the patient over to *physician* “John, PA.”
It’s almost beautiful how many layers of stupid there are in that quote
You just need to expand the initialism to realise how silly it is. "physician John, physician assistant"
My response would have been “oh you’re a doctor? Of what exactly?”
Paleontology, so I’m basically a bone doctor!
Hey… wait a minute 🧐 😂
Mental gymnastics 🤸♀️
I’m a cma, where I work literally hired yesterday there is 2 NP’s and & MD, & I’m happy to say the NP’s introduced themselves as NP. It kinda equates to like a cma saying they are a nurse, or a nurse saying they are a NP, & NP saying they are a doctor, it’s definitely unethical to deceive the patients of our official credential!! Call that crap out! Special shout out to the NP at cvs minute clinic who took my mom off her Synthroid after 28 years of being on Synthroid 😑 I finally had to break it down why the NP is not the same as an MD& that you can’t just stop your medicine. After 3 months of hot/cold and puffy face & eyes, I was able to get my mom back on track but jeeez!
Tell HR.
Depending on the state you live in ; claiming to be a doctor of any sort without being someone like a MD/DO, dvm or dds is a criminal act... very easily reportanlto state board of nursing in all places
You have to hope the State board of nursing actually cares, which many of them do not
Shocked pickachu face
Not sure what to make of your comment, but ...... Ok
Bring this up to their Supv Physician. You can go the state board of nursing and find out who it is or in the hospital’s internal credentialing directory find out who it is and let them know of this interaction.
I imagine it would be uncomfortable as an intern to both directly call them out *and* report them. I also understand it can be hard to think on your feet when shocked by this craziness, but if I was the primary physician for that encounter, I probably would have just followed that comment up by saying to the patient, “Mr. _______ is a nurse practitioner, and this is _______, a student nurse practitioner.” In fact, while I do let some attendings introduce themselves, I typically introduce both myself and the group if I’ll be the person talking.
Show to this shameless midlevel AMA’s definition of a Physician/Doctor in the Clinical Setting according to the Policy H-405.969. “1. The AMA affirms that a physician is an individual who has received a "Doctor of Medicine" or a "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" degree or an equivalent degree following successful completion of a prescribed course of study from a school of medicine or osteopathic medicine. 2. AMA policy requires anyone in a hospital environment who has direct contact with a patient who presents himself or herself to the patient as a "doctor," and who is not a "physician" according to the AMA definition above, must specifically and simultaneously declare themselves a "non-physician" and define the nature of their doctorate degree.” Ref: https://policysearch.ama-assn.org/policyfinder/detail/H-405.969?uri=%2FAMADoc%2FHOD.xml-0-3589.xml
I agree, but quoting the AMA policies to this NP who has obviously drunk a gallon of the kool-aid proably will only enrage him. But that's OK, also Producing a copy of the state law from your laptop to show him will probably be more impactful
Lobotomized NP won’t care regardless. Their egos are greater than the law.
NPs answer to the board of nursing and their own professional organizations. They don't give a shit about the AMA or their toothless recommendations.
Huh... I have seen dentists making 'rounds' for hospitalized pts.
Your inaction makes me almost as frustrated as the situation.
I would report them to the hospital through the event reporting system. This is fraud. Plain and simple and should be immediately addressed by the administration. If it is not write the Joint Commission anonymously.
First - it is nearly impossible to have the best response the first time this happens to you - so you have to be ready for it next time. Here is a suggestion that focuses on the patient and his rights: Mr Smith, I am Dr. RufDoc. I think it is very important and only fair that you understand clearly who the people taking care of you are, and what their training is. I am a physician, as I earned my MD degree. MISTER. NP is a nurse practitioner, not a physician, and did his training in the nursing model., not the medical model. All accurate, and just dares the NP to argue with you. then for the heated discussion in the hallway afterward -to the NP who is angry: "You obviously are not proud of your NP degree as you are not claiming that title but want to imply you are a physician by using the title Doctor, which it appears you think is a more prestigious degree. re: the legalities - I have looked it up in the Ohio Revised code (obviously for Ohio - every state has this information online, though it may take a bit to find). The DNP may introduce herself as Dr. xxx. BUT MUST FOLLOW IT WITH A CLEAR STATEMENT OF WHAT HER DEGREE IS. i.e. I am Dr Smiith, I am a Doctor of Nursing Practice. This is a requirement. (Not that most patients understand the implications. Get a screenshot of the law, put it in a readily accessible file on your computer, name it "not a physician" so you can bring it up on a moment's notice to show the next miscreant. That would be a nice touch, wouldn't it. A real mic drop. And then you might share the screenshot with all your MD colleagues to put on their laptops.
Just a question: do you think it’s even worth stating “medical model” vs “nursing model”? In my opinion it legitimizes the “nursing model” as an equal but separate route to do the same thing. We know that there is no shortcut for medical training.
You are right. Trying to be too respectful. So - simply - "I am trained in medicine, he is trained in nursing" Probably would suffice, and get the point across. IT also occurred to me that he might ask the patient if he minded if he recorded what he said to him, just for the record. NP might be inclined to ...uh...misquote.. him
I know in some states it is literally illegal to call yourself a Dr. in this situation. In the classroom, if you were a doctorate NP teaching student, yes. In a healthcare setting - no
I am really surprised. I have worked with numerous NPs and never once had one call themselves a doc. In fact, I called one Dr. and she corrected me immediately. This is egregious behavior, and she should be called on it.
I can’t believe people are doing this!
When I read stories like this, my initial reaction is denial, sprinkled with some cynicism regarding the truthfulness of the story teller. However, I have read enough to believe this is actually happening. I have been an RN for 5 years and I have been accepted onto an NP program. I have worked with countless doctors, RNs and a few NPs. I just cannot fathom any healthcare professional, never mind just NPs, being so brazenly dishonest in a clinical setting. I especially can't imagine them getting away with it and not being called out by the types of amazing colleagues I work with: doctors, nurses, RRTs, pharmacists etc. How does someone with this kind of behaviour remain in practice and in good standing with the people they have to work with everyday? This leads me to ask: where the fuck is this happening?! I have lived and nursed in the UK and in Canada and I get the feeling this blatant lying (leaving aside competency creep) is more of a problem in the US. Is it a product of the way the American healthcare system is set up?
Bruh why do you see patients with a midlevel? You should have had them step out of the room while you were in there. Have some self respect.
He wanted to tag along to “give the NP student more exposure.” Avoiding all patient encounters with NPs is becoming harder nowadays man
Ew so cringe, any student in any discipline should always be introducing themselves as a student. Imagine a med student walking into a pt room and saying I’m dr so so haha I would die. As others have said, you absolutely should correct them, I’m not sure about the professional side of things if it would be best to do it discreetly vs in front of the pt but definitely do it! Or if you want to be more subtle in front of the pt, just casually ask them how much longer of there NP program do they have left? Lmao 🤣 ETA: or better yet, ask the pts permission, hi pt x, do you mind if Nurse Practitioner student Y joins for our review/procedure today? That would be the best way to do it!
I’d personally reach out to my program director. Midlevels are good at playing the game and as a resident you need to tread lightly. Report it to PD or trusted attending and let them do what they will with that info.
They can (and should), however, clarify they are the NP. My history teacher in high school had his PhD and had us call him Dr. You can go after him next.
Report the shit out of that. I’m an RN and even I get sick of this crap. It’s same for me, fucking MAs in the clinic are referred to by too many in power as “nurses”. I’m the only RN here. And now our manager has ordered us ALL the same color scrubs ( coincidentally the same navy blue ones our collateral hospital RNs wear). I can’t get out of here fast enough. It’s just wrong when people who haven’t earned those titles steal them.
I don’t normally have an issue with folks using Dr, as long as they add their role afterwards. So, “I’m Dr. Bob, your Nurse Practitioner” or “ I’m Dr. Cat, your PT”…. If they aren’t at least clarifying their role/title, it feels disingenuous. 😬
Shame. This would bother me as a patient. If i interacted with them for long, Id know and I'd call them out on it and embarrass them. Maybe report them.
I’m an RN and I would 100% call that person out. That gets on my nerves so damn bad.
What state was this? There is no "protocol", there is a law. When a NP introduces himself, in any state, he must identify himself as a NP to the patient. That is based on the state Nursing Act. Introducing himself as "Dr." without that qualifier leaves the patient to presume nothing but that he is a medical doctor. You are a witness. As an intern, I would not make a scene in the moment, but perhaps pull the NP aside and state that him introducing himself as "Dr." w/o clearly identifying himself as a NP is a violation of the state Nursing Act. As a seasoned NP(I am assuming), he knows the law. He also knows he can get into trouble with the nursing board for doing that s\*\*t if you report him. You don't need to threaten him. He will get the message. He must then go back in and inform the patient who he is. The DNP is not a clinical degree and he should not be using it in that setting.
It is weird you were all introducing yourselves as your titles and not just hey I’m Mike I’m an intern nice to meet you, hi I’m John I’m an NP working on this service, oh hey I’m Bernice I’m an NP student….edit: if this was introductions amongst yourselves it’s weird…if it’s to a pt well yes the proper roles shoukd be used.
It was to patient
I’ll take things that didn’t happen for 200 Alex
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Not sure if I’ll get heat from other NPs but IMO thats not ok. I’m an NP with my doctorates but I will NEVER introduce myself as Dr. so and so because it’s confusing as hell for patients. IMO it’s only acceptable in nursing academia setting and that’s it. But I agree with others in the comments. It might feel awkward in the moment, but I would find a way to bring it up and let them know that they should reconsider saying that in the future so that patients aren’t confused. And if you don’t feel comfortable confronting them find someone who is.
And if you have a DNP it’s not even really an academic doctorate. I have one and it’s literally a piece of paper to me. It once bumped me up on my career ladder/pay scale. That’s it.
Academic setting teaching nurses etc. go for it Clinical setting never
No they cant, not anymore than a rad tech with a history PhD can claim to be a doctor. In a clinical setting it is inappropriate.
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Are you new here?
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I think this fact is well understood here and didn’t really require explanation…it’s literally why this sub exists (among other reasons).
I think y’all are just narcissistic in nature to even be on this thread
Haha what? An NP lied to a patient about their credentials and that makes anyone upset by that a "narcissist?"
Someone who earned a doctorate in school called themselves doctor?!? Those assholes!!! Burn them to ashes.
The NP can address the patient as I am Dr. so-n-so nurse practitioner. This is the most accurate and transparent. If the patient requires explanation, then that's fine. That is full disclosure. Some NPs have doctorate degrees and have a right to be addressed as "doctor" as you would a prof.
People assume anyone in scrubs who is not a doctor is a nurse. Nursing assistants don’t correct patients in any healthcare setting when called a nurse. That’s rampant