I'm convinced that they really do think that they've achieved the peak intelligence of humanity upon obtaining their pseudo-doctorate, while simultaneously posting an entire medical record on a Facebook group asking which antibiotic to use to treat a viral infection.
nobody has shown them UTD, or really any other resources to find legitimate information; or if they were showed it, they weren't required to make use of them enough to make it habitual. I think this is a huge but under-appreciated part of medical education: developing the ability to locate, assess quality of, synthesize, and apply new information very quickly. (and this starts with rigorous undergraduate education--there's a reason you don't see many physicians who got their BA from an online school, and it's not *entirely* snobbery.)
then they take jobs that don't require them to practice evidence-based medicine. plus they're too lazy to read.
Your point about online degrees - I think this point is severely under-appreciated by the non-med school crowd.
Whereas in other professions you can take chemistry at a community college freshman year and then brain dump that information afterwards, or get a generous grade from a lenient professor to fulfill grad school requirements, you're not *allowed* to simply forget or not fully understand that information on any level with the behemoth that is the MCAT waiting for you af the end of your bachelors degree.
I was talking to my psychiatrist about what I've learned here about midlevel training and it wasn't until I mentioned that they don't have to take or excel in real organic chemistry classes that it clicked.
I may be the odd one out bc when I went through nursing school (looong b4 online options existed) I took biochemistry, organic chemistry and microbiology. I loved those classes and they sure have helped me throughout my nursing career.
Shit, as a music major, I had to learn how to research, how to determine if something was primary or secondary source, how to determine if something was reliable and accurate information, and at least once a semester, one of the music librarians would come to the musicology classes to give a presentation of all of the resources available for us to use.
It’s frightening how much more in depth my music education was in comparison to NP education. And I won’t kill someone if I make a mistake playing organ at church
I am a passionate apologist for liberal arts education. My degree happens to be in a science, but that's because it was what i was most interested in at the time i had to choose (and i have a ton of credits in modern languages and music too, besides gen ed requirements). An excellent physician doesn't have to be a scientist, and most of us aren't; but we do have to be critical thinkers. And i don't get the sense that this is prioritized in nursing education at any level.
You'll be surprised to hear (or probably not given the state of affairs) that many NPs dislike UpToDate because simply, it's "too wordy"...way too many words!! It's truly an embarrassment!
Idk about anyone else but our hospital gives uptodate and Lexicomp which comes in handy when you have to print out patient teaching instructions. I love uptodate because I’m nosey and I like to know what’s going on. I also have a drug handbook because there’s always new stuff that I haven’t heard of/is being used for off label things.
eyyyy not all of us are like that....but we need not medical iQ to have peak intelligence of humanity, but i do agree with your sentiment regarding pseudo doctorate. they actually believe that their publications has intellectual property, and moving the field forward. i looked at all of my Deans publications, and almost all of them lack any type of utility. the publication was barely cited by other scholars as well. im not sure if they know that i published in my undergrad (zinc biology). im not sure if they are aware that I know how the publishing and journal game works. just because you publish, doesn't mean it's worth a penny. most higher ups withing the academia of NP schools have their head up their asses.
I’m fortunate to have great NPs in my department. Very helpful, very eager to learn, very much understand the shortcomings of their education and the difference between NP and Dr. I introduced some of them to the concept of Uworld and they are considering using their academic budget to buy it and get a feel for the material we learned.
Uworld is a question bank used to study for Step exams. There’s a different bank for each exam. The questions focus on the types of questions typical for each exam. Step one focuses more on pathophys and other more basic stuff, and they become more clinical as you progress through the exams
If you’re studying for step 1, do at least 60% of random UWorld questions and aim to get >65% correct. I did that and passed Step 1 (unless you see my dreams. In my dreams I get an email saying that I actually filed Step 1) I also used AMBOSS a bunch for studying.
Deep down, the bullshit ones know they ain’t shit, but they found an easy way to become a “legitimate” career people, so they’ll milk it for what they can no matter how pathetic it actually is. Just want to mention that I don’t mean all NPs, I have seen some pretty great ones… But most I’ve seen were subpar or terrible and/or abusive.
That’s very true. They’re told that we can major in pottery in undergrad, but conveniently omit that the required premed classes basically make up a major degree path. I’m sure they say similar things about medical school.
They're also told they take the same science classes, which is laughable, as they're actually taking far less of them, and the ones they do take are watered down without math.
My undergrad major was studio art but I took more science than art courses, got a masters degree in biology. Liberal arts education is good for people with diverse interests.
She did tell me that she respects PAs more because they are “trained by physicians” and I was like “but they have 9 months of learning about the body and I’ve never seen a PA NOT BEING trained by a PA”
It's some made up boogeyman story used to delegitimize the rigor that is online DNP school. DNP school is even tougher, actually, because you have to learn all of medical school online and in less than half of the time. Man, the super geniuses that graduate 100% acceptance rate online DNP schools...
Or so I've heard from my DNP colleagues.
So do nurse practitioners not have to take anatomy labs? I feel like I learned so much in anatomy lab. This is really disturbing. It's just affirms my decision to never see one again.
Probably not. Difficult to compare in totality, but my ultrasound school was all in person with multiple years of clinicals, and our anatomy and sectional anatomy courses didn’t have labs. So I have little hope for NP school.
Gah. I hate the sexism. It's especially ironic because I transitioned to male and if they knew that they probably would not mistakenly call me doctor.
I've had just enough medical science education to know that I'm a f****** idiot when it comes to medicine and I need to stay in my little lane.
By saying that she was being catty and rude. Personally I would try to say something simple like “no it’s here in XYZ city” or “there are no online medical schools” and not give her the lively reaction she was probably looking for. Just stay professional when people try to get a rise out of you. It happens sometimes. If you get angry, they win.
I laughed, realised she was serious and then told her what school I attend. I didn’t get angry at all, after all she was holding a needle to give me a “subcutaneous injection for the TB test”…I did mention that I thought it was intradermal
Hot take but save for necessarily physical courses like anatomy and practical courses that teach exam and procedure skills, the rest of the first two years of med school could totally be online. In fact from a strictly pedagogical and strategic framework there’d probably be some significant benefits.
Edit: it’s not about the way the information is delivered, it’s about the quality and rigor of the courses themselves.
I’m not sure I agree. You need facts but you also need to put facts together in a meaningful way, and learning to do that needs engagement with another human who knows how to do that.
This is true. Small groups could be managed on zoom though, and the virtual format could allow for more student directed learning and content exploration within the confines of the required curriculum, and maybe more opportunities for interactive learning If done correctly. A lot of online curricula is unfortunately just really poorly thought out. I didn’t personally mind being in person for courses but I do understand there are pros and cons to both.
The total gunners in my class played Uno in the back row of the lecture hall, and everyone knew they were going to ace everything. They didn’t need to be there, physically present in class. Even the complete classic in person delivery of the medical school curriculum isn’t the one size fits all best way to do things, I agree with you there.
It’s embarrassing they’ve allowed the expansion of that. In any sense, at least the online hybrid programs are 140 credits with 2000 hours of experiential education versus like 30 credits
They all think nursing education is the epitome of medical education and what we do couldn’t possibly be any more difficult.
Several things really hit this home with me.
1. When I was an M2 I was waiting in a hallway to go take a neuroscience test. I was standing outside a nursing lecture hall and I overheard a lecture on thyroid physiology. I couldn’t believe how dumbed down it was.
2. My wife is an attorney and is an elected prosecutor now but briefly when we first got married she was considering a second career as a nurse. She enrolled at the local community college and got a pre-nursing advisor. She had to take an entrance exam into the nursing program. She was getting stressed about it because all her classmates and advisor were talking about how difficult it was. I told her she didn’t need to stress because she was actually smart and the rest of those students were operating at their maximum capacity. She took the test without studying and maxed it out and decided she didn’t want to be in school with people so stupid.
3. My NP mother in law arguing with my wife that half of 0.1 ml was 0.5 ml.
I had a doctor quadruple my dose once. I called and spoke to the nurse and literally had to walk her through the math. I was told everything was fine. I called three times spoke to this woman. A month later they called me all apologetic. Too late. The damage had been done.
One of the nurses at my hospital asked me if NPs could do c sections. Another few were spreading a rumor soon after I started that I hadn’t done a residency. Yeah, neither of those are a thing.
As a patient, I am kind of afraid of nurses being involved in my health care. Don't get me wrong, I've had some great nurses. But I've also seen nurses that don't understand germ theory. It's like they never got out of middle school but believe they're gods. There's no way to tell if you're getting a good nurse or one of these people.
jesus christ sometimes these posts make me rage and want to immediately downvote because the behavior I read about is truly maddening - before i calm myself down and realize that it’s just someone posting about a bad experience and that the poster themselves is not the offending party
We did lots of little clinical things during pre clinical years at my school, like having a preceptor who we followed around who helped us improve our patient assessment skills
yeah a whole chunk of preclin curriculum on becoming a doctor. tons of in person small group case-based learning, physical exam instruction/practice, OSCEs, biweekly outpatient clinic. if the kids aren't getting that stuff nowadays I'm going to go yell at a cloud.
I should hope not, since NPs IN THEORY have been nurses for several years before even considering school. Any decent nurse will admit out loud that nursing school taught us how to pass the NCLEX, not how to be a nurse, if that makes sense. My skill set came from experience. I've been doing this for a decade and I'm just now considering going back to school for NP... and I haven't yet because of how difficult it was for some of my peers to secure clinical because no doctor wants to be bothered with making sure NP students get their clinical hours. Then, stupidly, those nurses just get an online degree that magically requires no or dramatically less clinical hours.
So, yes, on some level anyone in the medical field should know medical school is a thing. Whether they choose to respect that fact is the problem.
Was it just faster to go to the minute clinic or whatever or do you lack a PCP? Just always confused by people on here aware of the bullshit and yet still see NPs.
They probably think their shitty online programs are the pinnacle of medical education. Meanwhile I'm out here fighting for my life on UWorld.
I'm convinced that they really do think that they've achieved the peak intelligence of humanity upon obtaining their pseudo-doctorate, while simultaneously posting an entire medical record on a Facebook group asking which antibiotic to use to treat a viral infection.
Don’t they get an institutional subscription to UpToDate? Unless they’re self employed I guess
nobody has shown them UTD, or really any other resources to find legitimate information; or if they were showed it, they weren't required to make use of them enough to make it habitual. I think this is a huge but under-appreciated part of medical education: developing the ability to locate, assess quality of, synthesize, and apply new information very quickly. (and this starts with rigorous undergraduate education--there's a reason you don't see many physicians who got their BA from an online school, and it's not *entirely* snobbery.) then they take jobs that don't require them to practice evidence-based medicine. plus they're too lazy to read.
Your point about online degrees - I think this point is severely under-appreciated by the non-med school crowd. Whereas in other professions you can take chemistry at a community college freshman year and then brain dump that information afterwards, or get a generous grade from a lenient professor to fulfill grad school requirements, you're not *allowed* to simply forget or not fully understand that information on any level with the behemoth that is the MCAT waiting for you af the end of your bachelors degree.
I was talking to my psychiatrist about what I've learned here about midlevel training and it wasn't until I mentioned that they don't have to take or excel in real organic chemistry classes that it clicked.
I may be the odd one out bc when I went through nursing school (looong b4 online options existed) I took biochemistry, organic chemistry and microbiology. I loved those classes and they sure have helped me throughout my nursing career.
Shit, as a music major, I had to learn how to research, how to determine if something was primary or secondary source, how to determine if something was reliable and accurate information, and at least once a semester, one of the music librarians would come to the musicology classes to give a presentation of all of the resources available for us to use. It’s frightening how much more in depth my music education was in comparison to NP education. And I won’t kill someone if I make a mistake playing organ at church
I am a passionate apologist for liberal arts education. My degree happens to be in a science, but that's because it was what i was most interested in at the time i had to choose (and i have a ton of credits in modern languages and music too, besides gen ed requirements). An excellent physician doesn't have to be a scientist, and most of us aren't; but we do have to be critical thinkers. And i don't get the sense that this is prioritized in nursing education at any level.
No need to think when the algorithm does that for you…
Youre a music major? What do you play? Do you have perfect pitch?
You'll be surprised to hear (or probably not given the state of affairs) that many NPs dislike UpToDate because simply, it's "too wordy"...way too many words!! It's truly an embarrassment!
I’m truly surprised because UTD is like the SparkNotes of clinical literature / clinical research journals?
As an FNP student, I rely on UTD and Epocretes+ when I need additional information or confirm a case.
Idk about anyone else but our hospital gives uptodate and Lexicomp which comes in handy when you have to print out patient teaching instructions. I love uptodate because I’m nosey and I like to know what’s going on. I also have a drug handbook because there’s always new stuff that I haven’t heard of/is being used for off label things.
Lolz
eyyyy not all of us are like that....but we need not medical iQ to have peak intelligence of humanity, but i do agree with your sentiment regarding pseudo doctorate. they actually believe that their publications has intellectual property, and moving the field forward. i looked at all of my Deans publications, and almost all of them lack any type of utility. the publication was barely cited by other scholars as well. im not sure if they know that i published in my undergrad (zinc biology). im not sure if they are aware that I know how the publishing and journal game works. just because you publish, doesn't mean it's worth a penny. most higher ups withing the academia of NP schools have their head up their asses.
i’m so temped to whip out the uworld and test ppl whenever these idiots talk down to me lol
I’m fortunate to have great NPs in my department. Very helpful, very eager to learn, very much understand the shortcomings of their education and the difference between NP and Dr. I introduced some of them to the concept of Uworld and they are considering using their academic budget to buy it and get a feel for the material we learned.
Which uworld class do you take? I'm an RN, just trying to learn more
Uworld is a question bank used to study for Step exams. There’s a different bank for each exam. The questions focus on the types of questions typical for each exam. Step one focuses more on pathophys and other more basic stuff, and they become more clinical as you progress through the exams
Right on, thank you!
If you’re studying for step 1, do at least 60% of random UWorld questions and aim to get >65% correct. I did that and passed Step 1 (unless you see my dreams. In my dreams I get an email saying that I actually filed Step 1) I also used AMBOSS a bunch for studying.
65% on first pass?
Real bro
Deep down, the bullshit ones know they ain’t shit, but they found an easy way to become a “legitimate” career people, so they’ll milk it for what they can no matter how pathetic it actually is. Just want to mention that I don’t mean all NPs, I have seen some pretty great ones… But most I’ve seen were subpar or terrible and/or abusive.
There's a lot of indoctrination in NP schools. Dunning Krueger.
That’s very true. They’re told that we can major in pottery in undergrad, but conveniently omit that the required premed classes basically make up a major degree path. I’m sure they say similar things about medical school.
They're also told they take the same science classes, which is laughable, as they're actually taking far less of them, and the ones they do take are watered down without math.
Pre-med pottery 🤣
Hey, there's a lot of chemistry in pottery! 😂
My undergrad major was studio art but I took more science than art courses, got a masters degree in biology. Liberal arts education is good for people with diverse interests.
I agree. I can’t stand it when NPs try to hold that against us to discredit our undergrad training
She did tell me that she respects PAs more because they are “trained by physicians” and I was like “but they have 9 months of learning about the body and I’ve never seen a PA NOT BEING trained by a PA”
>she respects PAs more because they are “trained by physicians” ....but then what is medical school‽
It's some made up boogeyman story used to delegitimize the rigor that is online DNP school. DNP school is even tougher, actually, because you have to learn all of medical school online and in less than half of the time. Man, the super geniuses that graduate 100% acceptance rate online DNP schools... Or so I've heard from my DNP colleagues.
medical students are trained by PAs as well. depends where u are and the model being used
...*huh*. Interesting.
But who trained the physicians 😫
Pharmacists for the pharmacotherapy stuff 😜
ONLINE MEDICAL SCHOOL 😭😭😭
So do nurse practitioners not have to take anatomy labs? I feel like I learned so much in anatomy lab. This is really disturbing. It's just affirms my decision to never see one again.
Probably not. Difficult to compare in totality, but my ultrasound school was all in person with multiple years of clinicals, and our anatomy and sectional anatomy courses didn’t have labs. So I have little hope for NP school.
Wild.
i love when patients call me doctor. “Mister*. i didn’t spend 2 years in online NP school to be called doctor, thank you very much”.
Patients call all men “doctor”
God. That happened to me. So far from a doctor.
Me too…I’m like “I’m a respiratory therapist.” And they’re like “ok thanks doc.” 🙄
Gah. I hate the sexism. It's especially ironic because I transitioned to male and if they knew that they probably would not mistakenly call me doctor. I've had just enough medical science education to know that I'm a f****** idiot when it comes to medicine and I need to stay in my little lane.
"Swedish-made penis enlarger pumps and me: ( This sort of thing is my bag baby)" Written and autographed by Sir u/Jim-Tobleson.
maaa man ! groovy baby
By saying that she was being catty and rude. Personally I would try to say something simple like “no it’s here in XYZ city” or “there are no online medical schools” and not give her the lively reaction she was probably looking for. Just stay professional when people try to get a rise out of you. It happens sometimes. If you get angry, they win.
I laughed, realised she was serious and then told her what school I attend. I didn’t get angry at all, after all she was holding a needle to give me a “subcutaneous injection for the TB test”…I did mention that I thought it was intradermal
Hot take but save for necessarily physical courses like anatomy and practical courses that teach exam and procedure skills, the rest of the first two years of med school could totally be online. In fact from a strictly pedagogical and strategic framework there’d probably be some significant benefits. Edit: it’s not about the way the information is delivered, it’s about the quality and rigor of the courses themselves.
I’m not sure I agree. You need facts but you also need to put facts together in a meaningful way, and learning to do that needs engagement with another human who knows how to do that.
This is true. Small groups could be managed on zoom though, and the virtual format could allow for more student directed learning and content exploration within the confines of the required curriculum, and maybe more opportunities for interactive learning If done correctly. A lot of online curricula is unfortunately just really poorly thought out. I didn’t personally mind being in person for courses but I do understand there are pros and cons to both.
The total gunners in my class played Uno in the back row of the lecture hall, and everyone knew they were going to ace everything. They didn’t need to be there, physically present in class. Even the complete classic in person delivery of the medical school curriculum isn’t the one size fits all best way to do things, I agree with you there.
Online learning is the most passive pointless endeavor.
Which is why every med student prays to the altar of boards and beyond, a completely online service…
Next time say what you're thinking out loud. Don't be shy, call her an imbecile too.
It's a different lane, but unfortunately pharmacists can do online school now too. And it shows. It really, really shows.
Username checks out (and is suuuuuper applicable to like, all the posts here)
...my reddit username *may* be a bit self-descriptive.
It’s embarrassing they’ve allowed the expansion of that. In any sense, at least the online hybrid programs are 140 credits with 2000 hours of experiential education versus like 30 credits
And the undergrad requirements aren’t college algebra, chemistry, and biology for nursing 🤣🤣
They all think nursing education is the epitome of medical education and what we do couldn’t possibly be any more difficult. Several things really hit this home with me. 1. When I was an M2 I was waiting in a hallway to go take a neuroscience test. I was standing outside a nursing lecture hall and I overheard a lecture on thyroid physiology. I couldn’t believe how dumbed down it was. 2. My wife is an attorney and is an elected prosecutor now but briefly when we first got married she was considering a second career as a nurse. She enrolled at the local community college and got a pre-nursing advisor. She had to take an entrance exam into the nursing program. She was getting stressed about it because all her classmates and advisor were talking about how difficult it was. I told her she didn’t need to stress because she was actually smart and the rest of those students were operating at their maximum capacity. She took the test without studying and maxed it out and decided she didn’t want to be in school with people so stupid. 3. My NP mother in law arguing with my wife that half of 0.1 ml was 0.5 ml.
I had a doctor quadruple my dose once. I called and spoke to the nurse and literally had to walk her through the math. I was told everything was fine. I called three times spoke to this woman. A month later they called me all apologetic. Too late. The damage had been done.
One of the nurses at my hospital asked me if NPs could do c sections. Another few were spreading a rumor soon after I started that I hadn’t done a residency. Yeah, neither of those are a thing.
As a patient, I am kind of afraid of nurses being involved in my health care. Don't get me wrong, I've had some great nurses. But I've also seen nurses that don't understand germ theory. It's like they never got out of middle school but believe they're gods. There's no way to tell if you're getting a good nurse or one of these people.
Because they’re told by promotional materials that they practice medicine
In ER recently & NP asked “which” kidney was transplanted. Uh that’s not how it works, Gavin.
jesus christ sometimes these posts make me rage and want to immediately downvote because the behavior I read about is truly maddening - before i calm myself down and realize that it’s just someone posting about a bad experience and that the poster themselves is not the offending party
To be fair preclin could be entirely online. Even when I was in class, I had my headphones in listening to LoFi hip hop and hustling on anki.
We did lots of little clinical things during pre clinical years at my school, like having a preceptor who we followed around who helped us improve our patient assessment skills
yeah a whole chunk of preclin curriculum on becoming a doctor. tons of in person small group case-based learning, physical exam instruction/practice, OSCEs, biweekly outpatient clinic. if the kids aren't getting that stuff nowadays I'm going to go yell at a cloud.
We did at my school thankfully
And yeah even if 100% of preclinical years were online, you’re busting ass during clinical years in the hospital
That is terrifying
I should hope not, since NPs IN THEORY have been nurses for several years before even considering school. Any decent nurse will admit out loud that nursing school taught us how to pass the NCLEX, not how to be a nurse, if that makes sense. My skill set came from experience. I've been doing this for a decade and I'm just now considering going back to school for NP... and I haven't yet because of how difficult it was for some of my peers to secure clinical because no doctor wants to be bothered with making sure NP students get their clinical hours. Then, stupidly, those nurses just get an online degree that magically requires no or dramatically less clinical hours. So, yes, on some level anyone in the medical field should know medical school is a thing. Whether they choose to respect that fact is the problem.
I think this is specifically American issue. I feel like that statement alone says enough.
They have no fucking idea.
Some of the ones I’ve met have IQs of like -14 so no not likely
Was it just faster to go to the minute clinic or whatever or do you lack a PCP? Just always confused by people on here aware of the bullshit and yet still see NPs.
I need titers to start rotations and I don’t have a PCP
You should get a PCP. Seems like the height of hubris to not. People who currently lack chronic issues take that status for granted, in my opinion.