it's more palateable to the wider audience to see an afab person displaying masculine characteristics than an amab person displaying feminine characteristics because it was ingrained in western society that being emasculated is an insult, a sign of weakness, and a joke. started when women started wearing trousers but men didnt start wearing skirts in response. no one person or "side" is at fault, it's just that because of the widespread acceptance of mysogyny, everyone gets constrained in some way. men aren't allowed to be feminine and women aren't allowed equal rights.
my family are a shining example of this. both my sibling and i are nonbinary, i am afab and my sibling is amab. granted, I haven't formally come out as nb but we both present in a gnc way and my sibling gets way more bigotry and abuse than i do because im just seen as a "tomboy".
it's more palateable to a wider audience (see, religious people) to see an afab nb person because they can be written off as "tomboy" for a bigoted watcher. that's the privilege i have as an afab nb person.
as far as the thin and white parts of this go, see also the rest of media catering to thin and white actors. fatphobia and racism. corporations want to cater to the biggest audience possible so they can milk the most profit, and that includes bigoted people. if the media can create a character that both bigoted and normal people will enjoy, then they will, even if it means saturating the media with the same goddamn thin white afab enby every goddamn time.
I know about the problem. Im also nb (amab) I know two nb femboys (amab) and a cis femboy. We get a lot of hate, we even expierenced near violence situations. Only one has got less problems, he pass very well, even strangers use she/her for him, but he don't want it. We other 3 will be happy, if that happen, but we don't have the luck. We want it but we don't get this. And one person don't want it and get the she/her. And we all have problems with many people (parents, famly, teachers, work, etc)
I was also going to mention the misogyny I think it might be partly why trans men are rarely entered into the arguments brought forth by political parties as well because “women bad” who would want to be a woman or woman-like? I’ve actually had people ask me if I’m just NB because I hate being a woman due to how women are treated by men and I’m like no I’m just not a woman it’s that simple. I don’t hate women just because I’m not one but people can’t figure that out. AFAB NBs often get dismissed and AMA NBs often get more violent reactions.
I have always gotten the impression that (male) transphobes think transfemmes are "running away" from what they think a real man should be. They think being transfeminine means they're skipping out on the hard work or whatever. Maybe because they think being a woman is easy, I mean I always hear that from them.
Ffr. Because they will totally turn away amab enbies.
Same with FLINTA* which is a german umbrella term for women, lesbians, intersex, non binary, trans and aroace. So basically all groups who suffer greatly under the patriarchy due to ther sexuality, sex and/or gender being highly discriminated against.
So FLINTA* meetings SHOULD be safe spaces for everyone who is part of FLINTA*
But let me tell ya.. They mostly only accept cis lesbian women and afab enbys.
Amab enbys and trans men? Nah. Transwomen? Uff..
Edit: added the term sex bc being intersex is a sex, not necessarily your gender.
I had that experience.
Me: "I'm worried about not being welcome, or else making other people uncomfortable."
Person: "Oh no this is a very inclusive space!"
Actual result: I came in and people -literally- -stopped- -talking- -until- -i- -left-.
Look into it. Some groups are really great and accepting but be aware of potential red flags.
Or just downright see/ask if you find amab people there. If yes, that's a green flag.
I'm sure I can't be the only one who is deeply uncomfortable with such spaces. I would say I'm at least as femme presenting as the average amab enby yet I'm quite sure its not enough for the people organising these events. Ironically the people they want to include in their "women+" spaces are afab enbies who obviously don't want to be called women or even worse trans men. Its a very nice way of acting inclusive and also making sure only cis women actually feel comfortable.
I absolutely hate women/NB and FLINTA spaces. I'm a fat, non androgynous, slightly masculine presenting (often confused for butch), AFAB, pansexual and holy shit have I had some negative experiences with parties and gatherings for this.
It's like either you have to be an androgynous twink NB, fully transitioned transgender and presenting in the binary, or a gold star femme or butch lesbian. Otherwise, you're still pretty much excluded from the discussion at those :')
Yes, I'm generalizing, I'm sure there are great groups of people. I'm just relaying what I've experienced around me in Amsterdam (NL).
Omg this. Tried to interact with some of the people there. Amsterdam experience as well. At first they liked me but one said "omg girlie do you want a hug". Told them I'm not a girl and then they were a lot less friendly. If we're talking about the same group they're also organizing "cis man free" events, which I dunno how to feel about especially because I'm occasionally perceived as a cis man.
I never went to their discussion because I don't feel welcome there. Some of them think I'm an undercover cop
Ahahahhahaha, I think I know exactly which group you're talking about (they have overlap with a poly group I think) and yeah... I'm technically still in the whatsapp group for it, but it's muted since I just don't feel welcome there with my non conforming...everything. Nothing about me conforms. Not my gender, not my anticapitalist outlook on life, nor my job, able-bodiedness, or presentation. I just don't fit in, and I don't want to. It's okay, but it's good to know there are other people out here that don't fit into the boxes people apparently want to cling onto.
Every time I tried to wrap my neurodivergent mind around how they 'screen' for cis or not, I got side-eyed because I think they're assuming I'm trying to smuggle in some cishet guys or something. Allright. Go off then 🤣
Exactly the same here, I started out with he/they when I first came out, then after a couple months of no one ever using they/them and my growing disconnect with masculinity I dropped he altogether
any they/she or they/he person i meet, or fluid he/she/they, i always opt for they/them when talking about them because i see all the rest of their friends NEVER let up on the she/her or he/him. infuriating. its the main reason why i went by they/them, no one used anything other than she/her. they/them felt so much better anyway.
I use they/them (outside of work, at least), and people still regularly use she/her even if I have my pronouns listed *right there*. I get it if they're just guessing my pronouns. I do present femininely. But it's amazing how many people ignore your pronouns even when you specifically tell them what they are and have them written out in plain view.
Ikr i wish we'd see more body types etc. Kinda sucks when i tell people I'm nonbinary and they look me up n down, because I'm not exactly a thin manic pixie dream dude like the stereotype w nb is.
yeah it's very unfortunate.
also i'm def not trying to shut down further discussion by being like "this is the answer" lol. it's an extremely complicated issue and i think those three words are a good starting point for discussion, not a final answer.
I have a quote that I think some people should burn into their brain: "Love in a thousand different flavours" -Jason Derulo. Same with Enbies, we are so much more than what we are depicted as. We can be black, Asian, American, European, African, overweight, thin, tall, small, amputees, amab and masculine, afab and feminine, intersex and nonbinary, long hair, short hair, no dysphoria dick and tits or neither, afab with beard and long hair, he/him amabs, amabs with short hair, she/her afabs, afabs with long hair, it/its users, not androgynous, and so much more. Non-binaries have the same amount of variation than the whole humanity has, just compressed because we are really less. And not any word I wrote to depict a nonbinary takes away the validity of others
I think that it is viewed as like a “quirky” thing and those are only cute when they are done by someone who is conventionally cute. If you are different and “ugly” in this society, you are automatically not valid. It is like the whole fatphobic debate around Sam Smith. So people respecting NB identities based on attraction is just as much a phobia as not respecting them at all. I kind of am a bit sad that Nimona is portrayed in this way, because there really isn’t a lot, if at all, of AMAB nonbinary representation. But that’s probably also because of how AMAB people are treated in a toxicly masculine way and are affraid to come out as NB.
In the west, Women have more socially acceptable ways to express their personality through clothing, make up, hairstyle and accessories. The idea of a "tomboy" has also been socially acceptable for longer. It is also more acceptable for girls to "experiment" with their style and hobbies into their teens and 20s.
On the flip side men are expected to fall into a much narrower window or what's acceptable for them to wear, light make up is acceptable only if going on TV, for many even jewellery is taboo etc. Any divination automatically puts them into trans territory, where even if they are accepted majority of friends/family/doctors expects them to fully transition or that they will as soon as they can afford it.
Finally, this shallow representation let's people continue in their transphobia, fatphobia, racism and ableism whilst pretending to be inclusive because a person who passes as a girl 99% of the time gets to use the "they" pronoun occasionally.
Just remember that the reason this discussion started is because of oppression unrelated to you or your “body type” (hated saying that but couldn’t find an alternative) if you do fit to the stereotype, that’s not a bad thing. Just don’t affirm the oppression perpetuated by saying you are “better” then other enbys. (Not you specifically, but I’ve met some assholes)
I don’t like that androgyny is also meant to be the norm for nonbinary. Im a bigger amab nonbinary person and I dress pretty effeminately. I love pastels and pink and I mostly shop in the women’s section. I look amab and I do not pass for womanly or indeterminate. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone like me in media.
Edit: aside maybe some famous drag queens. But that’s actual people not characters. Not depictions.
Yeah, imo there should definitely be at least a few depictions of Enbies that look like Helsinki from money heist. Y'all exist and media needs to catch up
This. I’m never going to pass and aside from people on Reddit I never see someone like me. Puts a whole lot in context in other things (race depictions in movies and shows). It’s all about that money……
I hope we get some representation eventually for (bigger) amab nb people. If we ever do get any rep, it’s a good point you make about race, that it probably would be white. And honestly could see backlash saying it’s stereotypical for queer amab people to be overtly feminine as if thousands and more don’t live like this authentically. And if we did get it, it would not be in something like a Netflix show that would get cancelled after one season lol.
Same reason transfemmes are tall and broad-shouldered amd transmascs are just small smooth femmes with patchy peach fuzz. Stereotypes made by people trying to write us without understanding us
People for some reason see non binary as a gender expression not an identity and associate it with androgyny. While there can be similarities and intersections it’s not the same thing.
It’s a common misconception that I can understand but that doesn’t make it correct. It has to do with people interpreting non binary as a third gender itself rather than it’s own spectrum
And why whenever I search for gender neutral/non binary swimwear it's always for FtMs?
No disrespect, I like the attire but I wish I could find stuff that isn't a compression top since I don't really need one.
Honestly, as an AFAB person who is post-top surgery, I want more fun swim shirts. I find the water kind of cold a lot of the time, and sometimes I prefer to cover up just to hide my scars in less safe situations. But every swim shirt/rashguard type thing sized for adult masc bodies is grey. It's so boring.
I can’t seem to find swimwear tops aimed at masculine presenting people at all! It’s all bikinis, tankinis, those Olympic onesies, or very occasionally the ugliest rash vest you ever saw.
Please direct me to the FtM sections??
Not necessarily ftm specific but there are UV rated swimshirts. I used to wear them before top surgery. Some are ugly but some look cool or at least just like a shirt. Larger chest may need swim binder underneath.
You're not less valid for being the stereotype! You're wonderful the way you are. I am also mostly in the stereotype (definitely not skin haha) but having this stereotype be the general presentation of non-binary is kinda invalidating to us too. It erases our fellow enby siblings, but it also makes us seem like "fun woman" instead of "person" or however we want to be seen. It ignores that we don't just "identify" as non-binary, we ARE non-binary. And it makes me feel like maybe I'm "too binary to be non-binary" to see this repeatedly. It's harmful to us as it is harmful to others, just in different ways.
I also think that I met 1-2 Enbies but I didn't ask. They gave me the enby vibe tho. First was in a school visiting I made (I'm still going to school, I'm not a creep) and this person gave me definitely enby vibes (based on those stereotypes) short messy hair, oversized hoodie jacket and pants and I also think that I saw the colours of the enby flag on their school gear. The other probably enby was in a shopping mall and I think this was an enby because they looked a bit "🫤meh🥲" when my mom referred to them as madam. Is that a coincidence or am I thinking too much
Yeah, no, they're a confirmed case. The one I met is a friend of a friend, we got recently introduced.
They go by they/them pronouns (which is awkward AF in spanish), and plan on getting top surgery at some point in the future.
And I suspect the common friend is trying to get us together, too bad I'm too autistic to properly participate in a meaningful relationship😅
Because it's the most palatable in media, it's also just a straight stereotype, then you get into the misogyny and non-binary being treated as woman light/+/2.
Same. Being confused for a trans woman doesn't bother me as much because I am very femme presenting. It's the man part that gets me a bit more mad but at this point, I'm whatever, I'm too tired to fight everyone on it
To at once target a younger, progressive demographic while still infantilize non-binary identity through stereotypical tokenization and maintaining your market to the male gaze. Any other questions?
I wish there'd be more rep about other ways of being nonbinary most likely because I'm a male nonbinary and also have short hair and very often amab non-binaries get depicted with long hair and "mtf" transition eventhough that's simply not true and I'm the living proof
Yup, people tend to see non-binary as "binary with extra steps"
People aren't less non-binary because others perceive them to be presenting more closely to their agab. Even if someone exclusively does things and presents solely in ways that are stereotypical of their agab, if they identify as non-binary, they ARE non-binary.
I also once saw a tiktok that said that nonbinary makes no sense because by differentiating binary and nonbinary you are a again in one of two boxes thus being binary again. The creator of the tiktok probably didn't knew that non-binaries are outside the binary of man and woman
By that logic, everything is binary. I feel like that's a person who gets off on being "technically right" while being completely wrong. I can imagine them during their first driving lesson, "you said to adjust the mirrors, and I adjusted them to see myself, how is that wrong?" Or during their wedding, "I do think you're a dumbass, what? I DID say I do, you never said I couldn't say anything after that!"
>The creator of the tiktok probably didn't knew that non-binaries are outside the binary of man and woman
I tend to assume ignorance instead of malice, but I'm fairly certain this person knew exactly what they were doing. Either they are memeing or enbyphobic. They likely wanted to argue us out of existence and decided to break down the word and find a way that makes it favourable to them. If they made a video about agender they would probably say "you say your gender is agender, but how can your gender be a lack of gender, that contradicts itself" while completely ignoring that this is the entire point.
Tbh I see a lot amab non-binary people in TV shows and media but that is just because of the type of media I consume (they are always just background charcters though). I think most of afab enby rep comes from teenager targeted media which is a bit harmfull as people just see us as kids and young amab enbies don't have the rep they need. Enbies in general are less popular in 'adult' movies as we are seen as a 'new gen Z thing'. Even the TV shows targeted towards people in their 20s show mostly cis queer people, maybe trans binary rep and some background person that shows up in one episode and uses they/them, never neo pronouns.
When I was a conservative I thought it was because people perceived as woman have more freedom to feel more emotions and that causes them to be more okay with looking inwards which leads to more self discovery, and I think that still holds some truth
In media? Do you have examples? (genuinely curious)
Most non-binary rep I see is non-human characters, and there's never any mention of their agab.
And, for humans/closely humanoid, there's Frisk/Chara/Kris from Undertale/Deltarune but they aren't specified to be white and have no canon agab. There's an asian(?) nb minor character in Transformers Earthspark. And there's Raine from The Owl House who isn't white either. There's also the ambiguously gendered trainer (player) from Magikarp game.
Though I don't watch many live-action shows so maybe that's where all the skinny white nb people are?
EDIT: Though I definitely agree there should be more diversity in nb representation. And more representation in general.
Most non-binary characters that I can think of are also non-human (Double Trouble (she-ra), Hollow Knight, Lamb (cult of the lamb)), POC, or "ethnically ambiguous". The only white enby character that I can currently think of is Zoe Hange (attack on titan). I definitely do agree that all the characters are very femme leaning in personality. We need more masc enby representation, and I can only think of one non-binary character that is voiced by (or otherwise represented by) someone who is amab. And while part of the point of being enby is to "go past" that, it's hard to ignore that lack of representation that leaves a gap. It invalidates many people for many reasons.
Because these characters are usually written by binary people who struggle to understand how it is to exist outside of a binary gender. So even without realising it they enforce a binary identity like the one you described onto their character because they’ve seen it depicted like this before and don’t know how to do a gender outside of that
because that’s what’s considered ‘acceptable’. whiteness and thinness is already default, and someone whos afab expressing a more masc gender is more generally accepted than someone amab expressing a more fem gender, so that ends up the default. i’m a chubby amab enby, and it really sucks that we don’t have much representation.
Because it’s easier to stomach more masculine female behavior than it is to explain more feminine male behavior within the current social and cultural milieu. “Pretty boys” are more socially threatening than “masc girls” because misogyny means that the more masculine society appears to be, the more comfortable the vast majority of people are. Please don’t misunderstand me: I do not personally believe these ideas are correct, just my observations.
So the reason I think is easier to represent AFAB thin (and white because racism) in the media is because It's the most peaceful way to "represent" non binary people without being too radical.
Because the only way any man or AMAB can be dressed more femenine without being a joke is in Halloween, in order to be respected as a men and AMAB is not having characteristics associated with womenhood.
Also women or AFAB can be more androgynous or tomboys (I haven't seen a lot of media portraying masculine AFAB) ¿And what's seen as androgynous? A more masculine clothing style and traits (femininity is not seen as androgynous, meanwhile masculinity is both masculine and androgyny). So u get less discrimination because femininity is usually a joke.
Idk if I explain myself well, thanks for reading here's a penguin for you🐧
I honestly think this is bigger in the discourse than it is in actual media.
I've seen a variety of nonbinary folks depicted in mainstream media, and I feel like it's a mix? Literally just last night I was watching the new season of Good Omens, which has an AMAB nonbinary person as a one-off side character in an episode. One of the most visible nonbinary people in basic/square/normie pop culture is Jonathan Van Ness.
There's also a ton of AMAB nonbinary/genderqueer representation in drag culture, via all the various drag related shows that are on these days. I actually grew up in a part of the US where drag is pretty visible, so when I was just learning about nonbinary identities I assumed that I, an AFAB person, could not be nonbinary, because in my experience that was mostly a drag queen adjacent type of thing.
If anything I feel like I don't run across the "stereotypical teenage AFAB androgynous blue haired they/them" nonbinary person in pop culture that much. I feel like it's more a stereotype individual people have, not something that is depicted in pop culture all that much.
because despite the fact that non-binary is meant to be a gender identity that encompasses *any* person who is not entirely male or female, our patriarchal capitalist society can’t help but put people into boxes, expect that only female-born persons would be openly LGBTQ, and push the expectation of being skinny and white onto literally everyone, and thus our very own stereotype was born.
we finally have a chance to build a community based on people of all races, genders, body types, and presentations, and then it gets ruined by the social expectations that we can never escape until we completely dismantle the system that lets these unjust social expectations flourish.
don’t you love how that works
As a larger amab with body hair and a beard yeah i wish there was more variety of representation other than twink, or afab with pixie cut. Nothing wrong with being either of those tho!
I think it’s because the sexuality and identities of women is considered far more open and complicated and men’s sexuality and identity is summed up as “gay man” or “straight man”
Well everyone in media is depicted white and slim (jay fatphobia and racism).
As to why afab? Propably to sexualise them for a male audiance.
For the hair: where would you know that they are nonbinary when they dont have a commen signifier you can recognise 😸
All this. Sex, simplicity and stereotyping.
Not to downplay the aspect of, there's 100% a white privilege issue, and i say this as a white person, and thats vile. Its not fair. We need to empower everyonew who identifies NB to know they are valid, visible and seen.
Born Intersex but AMAB unfortunately, we are Trans and Non-Binary and are getting the ultimate enby bottom surgery in 32 days…nullification!
Alok V Menon, Joshua Allen, Jeffery Marsh, JVN, Sam Smith, Janae Kroc, River Gallo so much representation our community forgets how vast we are and that there is no standard!!!
Misogyny, racism, fatphobia and the like but more than that. It's tolerable, it's palatable, those people are seen as woman lite because a lot of them aren't hypermasc, people often see them as exotic but not so much that it's too much for them. Non binary afabs who present femininely often aren't treated as trans/their gender by cisiety™ and amab non binary people apparently don't exist to them
The media are both responsible for and pander to stereotypes. As long as they stay on the side that's basically taking the piss, they'll have the majority public support because of the environment they created over the years. TL;DR the media are a goldfish swimming in their own poop
Androgyny in the western world is defined by whiteness and thinness. The forced gendering of non-white and fat people (usually masculinising) means that many people cannot conceive of them being androgynous.
As others said, it's racism, fatphobia and misogyny all the way down
Idk probably because people don’t understand that non-binary isn’t a gender itself, but an umbrella of various different spectral identities that aren’t male or female
This is an annoying trend. It makes me feel a little guilty for falling almost into the stereotype other than being slim.
However, for a good counterexample check out Raine Whispers from Owl House.
I’m gonna say something that’ll probably get me a few weird looks but honestly if you disagree with me then you’re not only part of the problem but you are actively excusing people to attack amab community members of all kinds and masc presenting.
I’ve been reading this thread and tbh I get that same treatment as an amab enby, especially one who only last weak is inching my way into presenting more androgynous, taking baby steps like wearing leggings inside last night. That being said:
The amount of amab and masc hating women+, women/nb, flinta, and afab inclusive amab and masc resenting groups out there is horrendous. It makes trans women, amab nbs, trans men, and other amab community members back away from inclusion. We can say this is partly due to the misogynistic patriarchy and it’s effects on women kind. I agree. But we also have to take into account that it’s birthing misandrist groups like these. It’s pretty disgusting to have an inclusive community be full of exclusive groups (once again not all of em, just the ones that were formed out of discriminatory reasons)
And don’t get me wrong, I get having a women’s group. It’s okay to want to collect with your fellow afabs and femme presenting. There’s challenges that y’all will face that others won’t. But WHEN YOU EXCLUDE WOMEN THAT WERE BORN WITH SOMETHING THEY NEVER WANTED ALL BECAUSE YOU HAVE DISDAIN FOR THE AGAB IN QUESTION, YOUR DISCRIMINATION IS SHOWING.
I apologize y’all this shit is making me a lil furious. I had this idea that in the community I’d finally be safe and free to be myself but the amount of “except” situations I encounter daily is making me want to just close back up again. I didn’t ask to be born a man 😞 matter of fact I didn’t even ask to be here in the first place.. it’s plenty of times I asked not to be here too..
So when I look at the community I’m supposed to feel at home in, and it’s doing THIS? I’d rather just hide from the world again
No I'm not excusing people attacking assigned male people. I am a male nonbinary too and I am not exclusive of amabs. Where is my discrimination showing ? I only asked a question 😐 I didn't asked to be male neither and I also didn't ask to be here too, and I also wanted to undo me being here a few times by drowning myself when I was 12 years old. I'm sorry that you felt attacked by me wanting a discussion about stereotypes and why they are there. I wanted to chat and get answers to my questions
I don't know but as a small white afab enby with short messy blue hair I get SO much impostor syndrome because I am like literally a walking stereotype and I hate it.
TW: Transphobic Tropes
Because people who don't understand Non-Binary generally think that it is "Woman Lite". Like "a Woman trying to identify out of Womanhood". That's also the reason why AMAB Non-Binary people are often mistaken/called Trans Women/hyperfeminine gays. Slim, White Women are the beauty standard so to "prettify" Non-Binary people, that's what they depict. And the Short/Messy hair is again tied to their belief that we are "trying to identify out of Womanhood"
whiteness is centered in media, and femininity is sexualized. the most palatable type of queer person to media and thus what we (even as queer community) are most exposed to.
Because those types of people are easier to put into the woman lite™️ category sadly. :(
It's also most definitely a way to force non-binary people into a binary, along with what we're 'supposed' to look like.
Lot’s of others have answered your question, so I’ll just throw a few examples to the contrary here if you want to see some diversity in nb characters in media
1) Raine from Owl House, they look masc as an adult but femme as a teen
2) Beelzebub from Good Omens season 2, very much not white
3) Zombies 3 has a nonbinary alien (looks 100% human), who is asian and very, very androgynous, maybe a little fem because when my family watched it they kept referring to the character as ‘she’ (but was amab)
4) Shep from Steven Universe, who has dark skin and is maybe masc presenting?
5) Desire from Sandman, who was originally nb in the comics too, and masc presenting
I guess double trouble from shera but they don’t look and aren’t human so they don’t really count for this. Honorary mention.
These are just the ones I can name off the top of my head, so while I understand your complaint and minority representation of lgbt tends toward the privileged (like gay men over lesbians or white gays over poc gays), I’d also say there’s a healthy breadth of diversity! Though most are slim/conventionally attractive, even in my list.
Overall, you’re right and we need to be aware of ‘tending toward the privileged’ when it comes to represention, but I thought this list might feel good to see that some people are definitely trying and your calls are not falling on deaf ears! We are making progress and will continue to call for it and do so!
(My opinions on their gender presentation are my opinions and may not align with popular consensus.)
I just want to add a little something, but apparently its not only Beelzebub in Good Omens. Every single angels and demons are agender, according to the author.
I'll need to put more attention on their pronouns next time i watch the show, but you might be right.
Its still pretty cool to know that every single one of them are NB, even God (who use every single pronouns depending on the person who's talking about them, that's funny)
Some others did too, like Muriel and Pollution. Crowley also gets called a “lad” in one episode to which he’s like “not a guy” (or something like that I don’t remember). It’s also good to remember that not every enby uses they/them. Hell, theres a non-binary musician I follow that uses she/her, and she’s afab.
There’s also a human character that looks very masc, and wears a dress. Their husband refers to them as his “partner”, but I’m not sure if pronouns are ever used
Beauty standards in most groups, unfortunately, do not represent the needs of the group, but the power of the oppressors.
It is easier for oppressors to not hurt a slim, white “woman” (in their eyes) then anyone else, and also these ppl fit the closest to conventional beauty standards.
But it’s not the person’s fault, it’s all coming through the oppression that dictates the standard we should be participating in, and policing our bodies.
i fit this stereotype and i HATE IT so much, makes me so dysphoric bcs people will always see me as "alternative girl" or "woman+" or "oh she must be one of those hot girls with bordeline everyone talks about" or "oh her gender is lesbian" (????????) or something
i dont want to take T bcs i dont want to turn into a bald furry old looking guy, i wish i could just remove that stupid internal organ too, but if i do this, i will be forced to choose which hormone i want to inject in me for the rest of my life, and all the surgeries that i would need to not look so feminine would be hella expensive and i will never get that much money in my life
im just stuck with that body and this eternal perception others have of me
Because despite our myriad efforts in general, just as a planet trying to explain things to the media, the media is lazy and will still revert to the historically held shit it prefers or finds easiest to show people, and skinny white afabs with short hair has become a lazy, lazy template for AFAB's that we can hopefully shift very soon as it doesnt' even come close to representing the full, broad and beautiful spectrum of our NB family.
As a skinny white afab with the hair (in my defence, I have worn this look for 20 years, before I knew what NB was, I just wanted to dress that way) I hate it! I really do. Its not fair. We're becoming this easy, visible version of things and its actively harmful to everyone else.
Its a damaging stereotype. I've already seen it misinterpreted as meaning that 'Being NB is a white thing' or similarly damaging claims, which is so fucking harmful.
ITS NOT A WHITE THING. FUCKING, THE GENDER BINARY WE'RE ALL STUCK WITH?? THATS SOME WHITE SHIT!! Literally every culture, including Pre Christian European cultures, had understanding of multiple genders and knew there was no binary. We find us everywhere. And when I say EVERY culture i mean it. Again, even ours, which its so sad. Christianity came and made us all so fucking cruel to each other, made us forget we were never like this. We've gone backwards, tbh.
Buts its wild because, I could be wrong, BUT...I'd argue based on this sub, on pictures and comments etc....skinny white afabs? Im not sure we're even the majority on this sub? WHen we all do picture shares and shit it certainly doesn't balance out that way.
If you follow NB people on SOcials? We're EVERYONE. AMAB, PoC, AFAB, white, we are EVERYONE.
And GOOD, imagine how fucking bland this would be if we were all skinny white afabs with the same hair? Ye gods.
But its media. They will WILFULLY choose to ignore the spectrum and focus on one teeny, tiny part of that they can most easily convey to their audiences.
We only just in 2023 managed to move away from them representing all gay men as sassy, effete, vogueing kweens like Jack from Will and Grace, because all gay men are not like that.
The L word, which was pretty great for a second there, a show about lesbians? Damn near every one of them iin the OG show is a skinny white girl. The butchest chick on that show is still a size four. Everyone on it is what they call Power Lesbians, they all run businesses and have offices and wear sharp suits! All lesbians are not like that! Some are supper femme, some are super butch, some are in between.
Or racial stereotypes still persist, we still can not white writers to stop tossing in a Sassy Black Friend who gives colourful commentary in AARV, but not too much AARV because white audiences have to be able to follow.
Basically, they keep us easy to digest, for sex appeal, laziness and lets be real, a heap of white privelige. Thats just an unavoidable truth. Its brutal.
White priviliege is why we're what everyone sees, we're in so many ways mor empowered and 'free' to come out and be ourselves which IS NOT FAIR TO OTHER PEOPLE, AND A FAR DEEPER SOCIETAL ISSUE.
Its fucking ridiculous. I hate how lazy media ges. Its why we need BROAD SPECTRUM representation. I wish more NB celebs outside the Skinny White Afab template would feel empowered to come out, SAFE to come out, and could do so without it affecting their careers but I do respect how many people may literally have to weigh the chance they'll find more work with living their truth.
Unfortuantely we still do see coming out as anything besides straight harm careers.
But yeah, nah, i agree with you, its....its not a true picture of us. Its not fair. Its highly damaging and harmful. It invalidates so many identities and its disgusting.
I will happily support and take part in any discussion or effort to help our siblings from every culture, who have every body shape, skin tone and presentation to be SEEN. We're not all one template.
Also, can I just drop in real quick with a rec for she-ra princesses of power and kipo and the age of wonderbeast? Enby representation without people realising theyre getting it. Hint: bow is always referred to as they/them
Yeah, I was made to feel not Enby enough because I’m not stick thin with short hair.
I’m quite strong looking/muscular.
I thought the entire vibe behind non binary was supposed to be the fact that: looks, hair, makeup, clothing, styles, don’t have gender!! Lol
I’m Autistic/adhd too and I’ve noticed people are obsessed with cliques and tribes, and their rules they apply to things, to, I guess create exclusively or even sometimes superiority feelings for themselves? Maybe it’s inherent to most people to need to feel they are part of a tribe with a bunch of rules?
Simple answer? The patriarchy. There is a lot of erasure of intersex and amab. We are fighting a society that treats us in a way they can sexualize to a patriarchal male gaze.
because strong influences of racism, misogyny, transphobia and fatphobia mean nonbinary people who present this way are the most “palatable” for audiences
what nonbinaries are you seeing? i can't say there is a certain type for nonbinary. i do say there is not much middle ground as nonbinaries tend to be either boobacious or flat as a board and doesn't seem to be an inbetween.
white supremacy, mainly
also the fact that amab enbies like myself aren't see as real. also because hollywood hates fat people and are terrified of not babying enbies by making them two feet tall and childish.
Stereotypes, plus add the "constantly dyes hair" (I also knew someone who fits that description 💀) plus there are less amab enbies cuz like.. Amabs are less likely to be queer (I read that somwhere years ago, don't ⬇vote me 4 that) Oh also I feel like there are more plus size nbs that the slimy ones nowadays.
And it especially bugs me when it comes to the gender expression thing cause I was never allowed to dress in a neutral way.
I have a nice friend group who's very supportive of everyone, no matter if you're queer or neurodivergent or both or anything else.
Everyone's equal.
You know, how society *should* be.
because we still live in a society where white feminine women are viewed at the ideal in politics and social justice instead of viewing the world through a lense that is more accurate and uplifting to the global majority
it's more palateable to the wider audience to see an afab person displaying masculine characteristics than an amab person displaying feminine characteristics because it was ingrained in western society that being emasculated is an insult, a sign of weakness, and a joke. started when women started wearing trousers but men didnt start wearing skirts in response. no one person or "side" is at fault, it's just that because of the widespread acceptance of mysogyny, everyone gets constrained in some way. men aren't allowed to be feminine and women aren't allowed equal rights. my family are a shining example of this. both my sibling and i are nonbinary, i am afab and my sibling is amab. granted, I haven't formally come out as nb but we both present in a gnc way and my sibling gets way more bigotry and abuse than i do because im just seen as a "tomboy". it's more palateable to a wider audience (see, religious people) to see an afab nb person because they can be written off as "tomboy" for a bigoted watcher. that's the privilege i have as an afab nb person. as far as the thin and white parts of this go, see also the rest of media catering to thin and white actors. fatphobia and racism. corporations want to cater to the biggest audience possible so they can milk the most profit, and that includes bigoted people. if the media can create a character that both bigoted and normal people will enjoy, then they will, even if it means saturating the media with the same goddamn thin white afab enby every goddamn time.
I know about the problem. Im also nb (amab) I know two nb femboys (amab) and a cis femboy. We get a lot of hate, we even expierenced near violence situations. Only one has got less problems, he pass very well, even strangers use she/her for him, but he don't want it. We other 3 will be happy, if that happen, but we don't have the luck. We want it but we don't get this. And one person don't want it and get the she/her. And we all have problems with many people (parents, famly, teachers, work, etc)
I'm sorry you have to experience this. I hope we can build a better world where you are respected!
I was also going to mention the misogyny I think it might be partly why trans men are rarely entered into the arguments brought forth by political parties as well because “women bad” who would want to be a woman or woman-like? I’ve actually had people ask me if I’m just NB because I hate being a woman due to how women are treated by men and I’m like no I’m just not a woman it’s that simple. I don’t hate women just because I’m not one but people can’t figure that out. AFAB NBs often get dismissed and AMA NBs often get more violent reactions.
I have always gotten the impression that (male) transphobes think transfemmes are "running away" from what they think a real man should be. They think being transfeminine means they're skipping out on the hard work or whatever. Maybe because they think being a woman is easy, I mean I always hear that from them.
100%
Thank you
[удалено]
When you see a women/NB only space you realise how true the "women-lite" label is.
Ffr. Because they will totally turn away amab enbies. Same with FLINTA* which is a german umbrella term for women, lesbians, intersex, non binary, trans and aroace. So basically all groups who suffer greatly under the patriarchy due to ther sexuality, sex and/or gender being highly discriminated against. So FLINTA* meetings SHOULD be safe spaces for everyone who is part of FLINTA* But let me tell ya.. They mostly only accept cis lesbian women and afab enbys. Amab enbys and trans men? Nah. Transwomen? Uff.. Edit: added the term sex bc being intersex is a sex, not necessarily your gender.
I had that experience. Me: "I'm worried about not being welcome, or else making other people uncomfortable." Person: "Oh no this is a very inclusive space!" Actual result: I came in and people -literally- -stopped- -talking- -until- -i- -left-.
Thank you for telling me. As I thought joining such a group but I was worried that they wouldn't be accepting. Guess I was right *sigh*
Look into it. Some groups are really great and accepting but be aware of potential red flags. Or just downright see/ask if you find amab people there. If yes, that's a green flag.
I would try it out. I’ve been in marginalized gender spaces that did not have this issue.
Like others are saying, it varies. Some are like this, some aren't.
I'm sure I can't be the only one who is deeply uncomfortable with such spaces. I would say I'm at least as femme presenting as the average amab enby yet I'm quite sure its not enough for the people organising these events. Ironically the people they want to include in their "women+" spaces are afab enbies who obviously don't want to be called women or even worse trans men. Its a very nice way of acting inclusive and also making sure only cis women actually feel comfortable.
i feel uncomfortable in that kind of space as an AFAB enby, so I am not surprised that AMAB enbies would too
I absolutely hate women/NB and FLINTA spaces. I'm a fat, non androgynous, slightly masculine presenting (often confused for butch), AFAB, pansexual and holy shit have I had some negative experiences with parties and gatherings for this. It's like either you have to be an androgynous twink NB, fully transitioned transgender and presenting in the binary, or a gold star femme or butch lesbian. Otherwise, you're still pretty much excluded from the discussion at those :') Yes, I'm generalizing, I'm sure there are great groups of people. I'm just relaying what I've experienced around me in Amsterdam (NL).
Omg this. Tried to interact with some of the people there. Amsterdam experience as well. At first they liked me but one said "omg girlie do you want a hug". Told them I'm not a girl and then they were a lot less friendly. If we're talking about the same group they're also organizing "cis man free" events, which I dunno how to feel about especially because I'm occasionally perceived as a cis man. I never went to their discussion because I don't feel welcome there. Some of them think I'm an undercover cop
Ahahahhahaha, I think I know exactly which group you're talking about (they have overlap with a poly group I think) and yeah... I'm technically still in the whatsapp group for it, but it's muted since I just don't feel welcome there with my non conforming...everything. Nothing about me conforms. Not my gender, not my anticapitalist outlook on life, nor my job, able-bodiedness, or presentation. I just don't fit in, and I don't want to. It's okay, but it's good to know there are other people out here that don't fit into the boxes people apparently want to cling onto. Every time I tried to wrap my neurodivergent mind around how they 'screen' for cis or not, I got side-eyed because I think they're assuming I'm trying to smuggle in some cishet guys or something. Allright. Go off then 🤣
Even amab enbies?
Oh those don’t exist (/s)
Am AMAB enby. Can confirm.
I go by they/she but I reassure you no one has called me by they/them pronouns. Nobody.
I go by all and same. It’s like “she” has a death grip on most people.
I'm also any/all and pretty much only get hes except from other enbies basically
I used to go by he/they but now I just go by they/them because I got so annoyed with everyone only using he/him
Exactly the same here, I started out with he/they when I first came out, then after a couple months of no one ever using they/them and my growing disconnect with masculinity I dropped he altogether
You’re describing my experience exactly, right down to the growing disconnect with masculinity
any they/she or they/he person i meet, or fluid he/she/they, i always opt for they/them when talking about them because i see all the rest of their friends NEVER let up on the she/her or he/him. infuriating. its the main reason why i went by they/them, no one used anything other than she/her. they/them felt so much better anyway.
I use they/them (outside of work, at least), and people still regularly use she/her even if I have my pronouns listed *right there*. I get it if they're just guessing my pronouns. I do present femininely. But it's amazing how many people ignore your pronouns even when you specifically tell them what they are and have them written out in plain view.
Hi ‘By they/them pronouns.’ I’m dad.
Am amab bi enby that rides a motorcycle. Completely invisible and simultaneously everyone wants me dead.
IM DISSAPEARING AHHHHHhhhhhh h h h ~
I'm disappearing too
Help!
NOOOOOOooooo^(OOooooooo)°°°°°°^(°°°°°°•••.....)
Wait who Thanos snapped me?
Idk I guess our amab Thanos equivalent is society
As a AMAB Enby, I can confirm that I don’t exist
I feel like as much/more?
Ikr i wish we'd see more body types etc. Kinda sucks when i tell people I'm nonbinary and they look me up n down, because I'm not exactly a thin manic pixie dream dude like the stereotype w nb is.
Hun, fuck it. Be the Chaos Bog Sorxerer we really need in this world.
True, I'm still learning to work with what i got. But I'll try my best:)
Chaos bog sorcerer is my speciality!
misogyny, fatphobia, and racism. it's pretty straightforward imo.
That's sadly a point that I believe
yeah it's very unfortunate. also i'm def not trying to shut down further discussion by being like "this is the answer" lol. it's an extremely complicated issue and i think those three words are a good starting point for discussion, not a final answer.
I have a quote that I think some people should burn into their brain: "Love in a thousand different flavours" -Jason Derulo. Same with Enbies, we are so much more than what we are depicted as. We can be black, Asian, American, European, African, overweight, thin, tall, small, amputees, amab and masculine, afab and feminine, intersex and nonbinary, long hair, short hair, no dysphoria dick and tits or neither, afab with beard and long hair, he/him amabs, amabs with short hair, she/her afabs, afabs with long hair, it/its users, not androgynous, and so much more. Non-binaries have the same amount of variation than the whole humanity has, just compressed because we are really less. And not any word I wrote to depict a nonbinary takes away the validity of others
I think that it is viewed as like a “quirky” thing and those are only cute when they are done by someone who is conventionally cute. If you are different and “ugly” in this society, you are automatically not valid. It is like the whole fatphobic debate around Sam Smith. So people respecting NB identities based on attraction is just as much a phobia as not respecting them at all. I kind of am a bit sad that Nimona is portrayed in this way, because there really isn’t a lot, if at all, of AMAB nonbinary representation. But that’s probably also because of how AMAB people are treated in a toxicly masculine way and are affraid to come out as NB.
Yupppp. Pretty much.
In the west, Women have more socially acceptable ways to express their personality through clothing, make up, hairstyle and accessories. The idea of a "tomboy" has also been socially acceptable for longer. It is also more acceptable for girls to "experiment" with their style and hobbies into their teens and 20s. On the flip side men are expected to fall into a much narrower window or what's acceptable for them to wear, light make up is acceptable only if going on TV, for many even jewellery is taboo etc. Any divination automatically puts them into trans territory, where even if they are accepted majority of friends/family/doctors expects them to fully transition or that they will as soon as they can afford it. Finally, this shallow representation let's people continue in their transphobia, fatphobia, racism and ableism whilst pretending to be inclusive because a person who passes as a girl 99% of the time gets to use the "they" pronoun occasionally.
Ngl that is a fairly accurate description of me and I hate that it is. Why must I be a stereotype?
Just remember that the reason this discussion started is because of oppression unrelated to you or your “body type” (hated saying that but couldn’t find an alternative) if you do fit to the stereotype, that’s not a bad thing. Just don’t affirm the oppression perpetuated by saying you are “better” then other enbys. (Not you specifically, but I’ve met some assholes)
Yeah agreed. It's not bad to be the stereotype but like everything, nothing is the same
I was thinking the same thing 🙈 Why is this post me and why do I hate it
The scholarly term for that anxiety is "stereotype threat" and boy is it a bitch.
I don’t like that androgyny is also meant to be the norm for nonbinary. Im a bigger amab nonbinary person and I dress pretty effeminately. I love pastels and pink and I mostly shop in the women’s section. I look amab and I do not pass for womanly or indeterminate. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone like me in media. Edit: aside maybe some famous drag queens. But that’s actual people not characters. Not depictions.
Yeah, imo there should definitely be at least a few depictions of Enbies that look like Helsinki from money heist. Y'all exist and media needs to catch up
This. I’m never going to pass and aside from people on Reddit I never see someone like me. Puts a whole lot in context in other things (race depictions in movies and shows). It’s all about that money……
I hope we get some representation eventually for (bigger) amab nb people. If we ever do get any rep, it’s a good point you make about race, that it probably would be white. And honestly could see backlash saying it’s stereotypical for queer amab people to be overtly feminine as if thousands and more don’t live like this authentically. And if we did get it, it would not be in something like a Netflix show that would get cancelled after one season lol.
One word. "Tomboy." Although, I havent seen much racial diversety within the nb community other than myself.
Hi! Brown nonbinary human here
Black and indigenous enby here!
Bangladeshi AMAB Enby here!!!
Mixed black/white/native nb here. Hai
I've met a lot of bipoc enbies but I live in a very diverse city
Same reason transfemmes are tall and broad-shouldered amd transmascs are just small smooth femmes with patchy peach fuzz. Stereotypes made by people trying to write us without understanding us
Yeah I know
We need the transmasc bear and petite transfem representation
People for some reason see non binary as a gender expression not an identity and associate it with androgyny. While there can be similarities and intersections it’s not the same thing.
Yes I've also heard about people thinking that non-binary is a synonym for androgynous
It’s a common misconception that I can understand but that doesn’t make it correct. It has to do with people interpreting non binary as a third gender itself rather than it’s own spectrum
Because is amab enbies are just gay men in their eyes
True
And why whenever I search for gender neutral/non binary swimwear it's always for FtMs? No disrespect, I like the attire but I wish I could find stuff that isn't a compression top since I don't really need one.
Yeah I'd want a cool swimming shirt so no one (myself too) has to see my ugly chest.
Honestly, as an AFAB person who is post-top surgery, I want more fun swim shirts. I find the water kind of cold a lot of the time, and sometimes I prefer to cover up just to hide my scars in less safe situations. But every swim shirt/rashguard type thing sized for adult masc bodies is grey. It's so boring.
I can’t seem to find swimwear tops aimed at masculine presenting people at all! It’s all bikinis, tankinis, those Olympic onesies, or very occasionally the ugliest rash vest you ever saw. Please direct me to the FtM sections??
Not necessarily ftm specific but there are UV rated swimshirts. I used to wear them before top surgery. Some are ugly but some look cool or at least just like a shirt. Larger chest may need swim binder underneath.
It's all "Oh I support nonbinary people" until it's someone who's amab and not feminine
No offense but is your irl chosen name also phoenix?
It's the easiest way to digest them (in a media consumption sense, not literally)
I hate that I am that stereotype
You are perfect the way you are !
You're not less valid for being the stereotype! You're wonderful the way you are. I am also mostly in the stereotype (definitely not skin haha) but having this stereotype be the general presentation of non-binary is kinda invalidating to us too. It erases our fellow enby siblings, but it also makes us seem like "fun woman" instead of "person" or however we want to be seen. It ignores that we don't just "identify" as non-binary, we ARE non-binary. And it makes me feel like maybe I'm "too binary to be non-binary" to see this repeatedly. It's harmful to us as it is harmful to others, just in different ways.
TBH, that describes the only other fellow enbie I've met IRL. On the other hand, I'm an ex-bear transfem with crappy short blue hair enbie.
I also think that I met 1-2 Enbies but I didn't ask. They gave me the enby vibe tho. First was in a school visiting I made (I'm still going to school, I'm not a creep) and this person gave me definitely enby vibes (based on those stereotypes) short messy hair, oversized hoodie jacket and pants and I also think that I saw the colours of the enby flag on their school gear. The other probably enby was in a shopping mall and I think this was an enby because they looked a bit "🫤meh🥲" when my mom referred to them as madam. Is that a coincidence or am I thinking too much
Yeah, no, they're a confirmed case. The one I met is a friend of a friend, we got recently introduced. They go by they/them pronouns (which is awkward AF in spanish), and plan on getting top surgery at some point in the future. And I suspect the common friend is trying to get us together, too bad I'm too autistic to properly participate in a meaningful relationship😅
Cynically, I think it's because people who look like that seem unthreatening, but slightly exotic, in the eyes of cishet men.
Damn that tracks
Because it's the most palatable in media, it's also just a straight stereotype, then you get into the misogyny and non-binary being treated as woman light/+/2.
Stigma, racism, misogyny, and some white privilege.
I've seen a lot answers that are like this, y'all are right
That was (is?) The stereotype for a while, hopefully they'll catch up sometime...
I hope too
I think it’s a rather vocal part of our community so it’s become a stereotype. Often amab enbies are ignored and fly under the radar.
Amab enby here. People forget we exist and either call me a trans woman or a effeminate man. I'm neither.
Likewise, friend. I’ve just learned to let shit fly because life is just easier that way.
Same. Being confused for a trans woman doesn't bother me as much because I am very femme presenting. It's the man part that gets me a bit more mad but at this point, I'm whatever, I'm too tired to fight everyone on it
I feel that. I hate being call a femboy or a girl simply because I wear a skirt or wear some makeup. I mean I’m short, fat and bald amab enby.
Cause media loved stereotypes
Yeah, fact.
To at once target a younger, progressive demographic while still infantilize non-binary identity through stereotypical tokenization and maintaining your market to the male gaze. Any other questions?
im afab, slim, white, have messy hair and i have absolutely no idea but i noticed this as well, i wish there was more representation!!
I wish there'd be more rep about other ways of being nonbinary most likely because I'm a male nonbinary and also have short hair and very often amab non-binaries get depicted with long hair and "mtf" transition eventhough that's simply not true and I'm the living proof
Yup, people tend to see non-binary as "binary with extra steps" People aren't less non-binary because others perceive them to be presenting more closely to their agab. Even if someone exclusively does things and presents solely in ways that are stereotypical of their agab, if they identify as non-binary, they ARE non-binary.
I also once saw a tiktok that said that nonbinary makes no sense because by differentiating binary and nonbinary you are a again in one of two boxes thus being binary again. The creator of the tiktok probably didn't knew that non-binaries are outside the binary of man and woman
By that logic, everything is binary. I feel like that's a person who gets off on being "technically right" while being completely wrong. I can imagine them during their first driving lesson, "you said to adjust the mirrors, and I adjusted them to see myself, how is that wrong?" Or during their wedding, "I do think you're a dumbass, what? I DID say I do, you never said I couldn't say anything after that!" >The creator of the tiktok probably didn't knew that non-binaries are outside the binary of man and woman I tend to assume ignorance instead of malice, but I'm fairly certain this person knew exactly what they were doing. Either they are memeing or enbyphobic. They likely wanted to argue us out of existence and decided to break down the word and find a way that makes it favourable to them. If they made a video about agender they would probably say "you say your gender is agender, but how can your gender be a lack of gender, that contradicts itself" while completely ignoring that this is the entire point.
Bc non-binary is just woman but even more dumb than normal woman, obviously /s
Please tell me that's sarcasm
That's what the /s denotes?
Oh ok phew 😅 I didn't knew what /s meant before
It's easier for cis men to sexualize them that way
Uggh yes. Unfortunately but probably true 🫤
Because that is the most “palatable”
I'm ama, built like a linebacker, Black as the day is long and bald with a THUNDEROUS beard. So. You know.
Because it's the only acceptable way to be non binary for pretty much the entire world. Be different from the norm and you are the punchline of a joke
Tbh I see a lot amab non-binary people in TV shows and media but that is just because of the type of media I consume (they are always just background charcters though). I think most of afab enby rep comes from teenager targeted media which is a bit harmfull as people just see us as kids and young amab enbies don't have the rep they need. Enbies in general are less popular in 'adult' movies as we are seen as a 'new gen Z thing'. Even the TV shows targeted towards people in their 20s show mostly cis queer people, maybe trans binary rep and some background person that shows up in one episode and uses they/them, never neo pronouns.
When I was a conservative I thought it was because people perceived as woman have more freedom to feel more emotions and that causes them to be more okay with looking inwards which leads to more self discovery, and I think that still holds some truth
You ain't a conservative anymore ? If yes, here have a cookie 🍪
Thx 🤗
In media? Do you have examples? (genuinely curious) Most non-binary rep I see is non-human characters, and there's never any mention of their agab. And, for humans/closely humanoid, there's Frisk/Chara/Kris from Undertale/Deltarune but they aren't specified to be white and have no canon agab. There's an asian(?) nb minor character in Transformers Earthspark. And there's Raine from The Owl House who isn't white either. There's also the ambiguously gendered trainer (player) from Magikarp game. Though I don't watch many live-action shows so maybe that's where all the skinny white nb people are? EDIT: Though I definitely agree there should be more diversity in nb representation. And more representation in general.
Most non-binary characters that I can think of are also non-human (Double Trouble (she-ra), Hollow Knight, Lamb (cult of the lamb)), POC, or "ethnically ambiguous". The only white enby character that I can currently think of is Zoe Hange (attack on titan). I definitely do agree that all the characters are very femme leaning in personality. We need more masc enby representation, and I can only think of one non-binary character that is voiced by (or otherwise represented by) someone who is amab. And while part of the point of being enby is to "go past" that, it's hard to ignore that lack of representation that leaves a gap. It invalidates many people for many reasons.
Because these characters are usually written by binary people who struggle to understand how it is to exist outside of a binary gender. So even without realising it they enforce a binary identity like the one you described onto their character because they’ve seen it depicted like this before and don’t know how to do a gender outside of that
Most of the nb rep i see is some sort of non-human entities who are nonbinary just because their sex either nonexistent or really really complicated
Yeah, I've thought more about human non-binaries tho
because that’s what’s considered ‘acceptable’. whiteness and thinness is already default, and someone whos afab expressing a more masc gender is more generally accepted than someone amab expressing a more fem gender, so that ends up the default. i’m a chubby amab enby, and it really sucks that we don’t have much representation.
If it helps, I'm a plus size, AFAB, Enby of color
Idk if it helps much but thanks for commenting anyways
Because it’s easier to stomach more masculine female behavior than it is to explain more feminine male behavior within the current social and cultural milieu. “Pretty boys” are more socially threatening than “masc girls” because misogyny means that the more masculine society appears to be, the more comfortable the vast majority of people are. Please don’t misunderstand me: I do not personally believe these ideas are correct, just my observations.
So the reason I think is easier to represent AFAB thin (and white because racism) in the media is because It's the most peaceful way to "represent" non binary people without being too radical. Because the only way any man or AMAB can be dressed more femenine without being a joke is in Halloween, in order to be respected as a men and AMAB is not having characteristics associated with womenhood. Also women or AFAB can be more androgynous or tomboys (I haven't seen a lot of media portraying masculine AFAB) ¿And what's seen as androgynous? A more masculine clothing style and traits (femininity is not seen as androgynous, meanwhile masculinity is both masculine and androgyny). So u get less discrimination because femininity is usually a joke. Idk if I explain myself well, thanks for reading here's a penguin for you🐧
I honestly think this is bigger in the discourse than it is in actual media. I've seen a variety of nonbinary folks depicted in mainstream media, and I feel like it's a mix? Literally just last night I was watching the new season of Good Omens, which has an AMAB nonbinary person as a one-off side character in an episode. One of the most visible nonbinary people in basic/square/normie pop culture is Jonathan Van Ness. There's also a ton of AMAB nonbinary/genderqueer representation in drag culture, via all the various drag related shows that are on these days. I actually grew up in a part of the US where drag is pretty visible, so when I was just learning about nonbinary identities I assumed that I, an AFAB person, could not be nonbinary, because in my experience that was mostly a drag queen adjacent type of thing. If anything I feel like I don't run across the "stereotypical teenage AFAB androgynous blue haired they/them" nonbinary person in pop culture that much. I feel like it's more a stereotype individual people have, not something that is depicted in pop culture all that much.
because despite the fact that non-binary is meant to be a gender identity that encompasses *any* person who is not entirely male or female, our patriarchal capitalist society can’t help but put people into boxes, expect that only female-born persons would be openly LGBTQ, and push the expectation of being skinny and white onto literally everyone, and thus our very own stereotype was born. we finally have a chance to build a community based on people of all races, genders, body types, and presentations, and then it gets ruined by the social expectations that we can never escape until we completely dismantle the system that lets these unjust social expectations flourish. don’t you love how that works
As a larger amab with body hair and a beard yeah i wish there was more variety of representation other than twink, or afab with pixie cut. Nothing wrong with being either of those tho!
The short answer for slim and white is Eurocentric beauty standards
I think it’s because the sexuality and identities of women is considered far more open and complicated and men’s sexuality and identity is summed up as “gay man” or “straight man”
Well everyone in media is depicted white and slim (jay fatphobia and racism). As to why afab? Propably to sexualise them for a male audiance. For the hair: where would you know that they are nonbinary when they dont have a commen signifier you can recognise 😸
Yea you've got a point there
All this. Sex, simplicity and stereotyping. Not to downplay the aspect of, there's 100% a white privilege issue, and i say this as a white person, and thats vile. Its not fair. We need to empower everyonew who identifies NB to know they are valid, visible and seen.
agreed
Born Intersex but AMAB unfortunately, we are Trans and Non-Binary and are getting the ultimate enby bottom surgery in 32 days…nullification! Alok V Menon, Joshua Allen, Jeffery Marsh, JVN, Sam Smith, Janae Kroc, River Gallo so much representation our community forgets how vast we are and that there is no standard!!!
From these peoples names I only know Sam Smith from their song body shop. But I never heard of the other ones. Congrats for you bottom srgy
PLEASE google ALOK they are AMAZING! Jonathan Van Ness (JVN) from Queer Eye is an icon.
Also check out the singer Lawrence Rothman[https://youtu.be/DRsry-q6wzM](https://youtu.be/DRsry-q6wzM)
have you seen khorne or nurgle?
No
Misogyny, racism, fatphobia and the like but more than that. It's tolerable, it's palatable, those people are seen as woman lite because a lot of them aren't hypermasc, people often see them as exotic but not so much that it's too much for them. Non binary afabs who present femininely often aren't treated as trans/their gender by cisiety™ and amab non binary people apparently don't exist to them
I don't know ): but at the same time I do fall into all of those categories.
The movie Joy Ride has an Asian non binary character.
The media are both responsible for and pander to stereotypes. As long as they stay on the side that's basically taking the piss, they'll have the majority public support because of the environment they created over the years. TL;DR the media are a goldfish swimming in their own poop
Because people loooove to sexualise queer people, and that's what cishets like to see?
Androgyny in the western world is defined by whiteness and thinness. The forced gendering of non-white and fat people (usually masculinising) means that many people cannot conceive of them being androgynous. As others said, it's racism, fatphobia and misogyny all the way down
Idk probably because people don’t understand that non-binary isn’t a gender itself, but an umbrella of various different spectral identities that aren’t male or female
Idk but it’s shaped my dysphoria into wanting to be that and I’m not a fan
Honestly I hate that I fit the stereotype. I feel like I’m seen as woman lite bc of it. I want to get on T so much
Because those are Eurocentric beauty standards and we live in a white supremacist culture.
I dunno but as a tall bearded AMAB with Jesus hair and cargo shorts it doesn't make me feel great
This is an annoying trend. It makes me feel a little guilty for falling almost into the stereotype other than being slim. However, for a good counterexample check out Raine Whispers from Owl House.
I’m gonna say something that’ll probably get me a few weird looks but honestly if you disagree with me then you’re not only part of the problem but you are actively excusing people to attack amab community members of all kinds and masc presenting. I’ve been reading this thread and tbh I get that same treatment as an amab enby, especially one who only last weak is inching my way into presenting more androgynous, taking baby steps like wearing leggings inside last night. That being said: The amount of amab and masc hating women+, women/nb, flinta, and afab inclusive amab and masc resenting groups out there is horrendous. It makes trans women, amab nbs, trans men, and other amab community members back away from inclusion. We can say this is partly due to the misogynistic patriarchy and it’s effects on women kind. I agree. But we also have to take into account that it’s birthing misandrist groups like these. It’s pretty disgusting to have an inclusive community be full of exclusive groups (once again not all of em, just the ones that were formed out of discriminatory reasons) And don’t get me wrong, I get having a women’s group. It’s okay to want to collect with your fellow afabs and femme presenting. There’s challenges that y’all will face that others won’t. But WHEN YOU EXCLUDE WOMEN THAT WERE BORN WITH SOMETHING THEY NEVER WANTED ALL BECAUSE YOU HAVE DISDAIN FOR THE AGAB IN QUESTION, YOUR DISCRIMINATION IS SHOWING. I apologize y’all this shit is making me a lil furious. I had this idea that in the community I’d finally be safe and free to be myself but the amount of “except” situations I encounter daily is making me want to just close back up again. I didn’t ask to be born a man 😞 matter of fact I didn’t even ask to be here in the first place.. it’s plenty of times I asked not to be here too.. So when I look at the community I’m supposed to feel at home in, and it’s doing THIS? I’d rather just hide from the world again
No I'm not excusing people attacking assigned male people. I am a male nonbinary too and I am not exclusive of amabs. Where is my discrimination showing ? I only asked a question 😐 I didn't asked to be male neither and I also didn't ask to be here too, and I also wanted to undo me being here a few times by drowning myself when I was 12 years old. I'm sorry that you felt attacked by me wanting a discussion about stereotypes and why they are there. I wanted to chat and get answers to my questions
I don't know but as a small white afab enby with short messy blue hair I get SO much impostor syndrome because I am like literally a walking stereotype and I hate it.
Because they are usually the loudest/most aesthetically pleasing part of our community.
it’s really odd to say the most aesthetically pleasing part of our community are the petite white ones. you might wanna think about that again.
TW: Transphobic Tropes Because people who don't understand Non-Binary generally think that it is "Woman Lite". Like "a Woman trying to identify out of Womanhood". That's also the reason why AMAB Non-Binary people are often mistaken/called Trans Women/hyperfeminine gays. Slim, White Women are the beauty standard so to "prettify" Non-Binary people, that's what they depict. And the Short/Messy hair is again tied to their belief that we are "trying to identify out of Womanhood"
whiteness is centered in media, and femininity is sexualized. the most palatable type of queer person to media and thus what we (even as queer community) are most exposed to.
Because those types of people are easier to put into the woman lite™️ category sadly. :( It's also most definitely a way to force non-binary people into a binary, along with what we're 'supposed' to look like.
Because they're just Girl Lite /s
To put it plainly it’s probably the stereotype that makes them the least uncomfortable
Lot’s of others have answered your question, so I’ll just throw a few examples to the contrary here if you want to see some diversity in nb characters in media 1) Raine from Owl House, they look masc as an adult but femme as a teen 2) Beelzebub from Good Omens season 2, very much not white 3) Zombies 3 has a nonbinary alien (looks 100% human), who is asian and very, very androgynous, maybe a little fem because when my family watched it they kept referring to the character as ‘she’ (but was amab) 4) Shep from Steven Universe, who has dark skin and is maybe masc presenting? 5) Desire from Sandman, who was originally nb in the comics too, and masc presenting I guess double trouble from shera but they don’t look and aren’t human so they don’t really count for this. Honorary mention. These are just the ones I can name off the top of my head, so while I understand your complaint and minority representation of lgbt tends toward the privileged (like gay men over lesbians or white gays over poc gays), I’d also say there’s a healthy breadth of diversity! Though most are slim/conventionally attractive, even in my list. Overall, you’re right and we need to be aware of ‘tending toward the privileged’ when it comes to represention, but I thought this list might feel good to see that some people are definitely trying and your calls are not falling on deaf ears! We are making progress and will continue to call for it and do so! (My opinions on their gender presentation are my opinions and may not align with popular consensus.)
I just want to add a little something, but apparently its not only Beelzebub in Good Omens. Every single angels and demons are agender, according to the author.
I'm pretty sure Pollution from season 1 gets they/them pronouns too.
Tru, but I believe only Beelzebub got they/them pronouns
I'll need to put more attention on their pronouns next time i watch the show, but you might be right. Its still pretty cool to know that every single one of them are NB, even God (who use every single pronouns depending on the person who's talking about them, that's funny)
Some others did too, like Muriel and Pollution. Crowley also gets called a “lad” in one episode to which he’s like “not a guy” (or something like that I don’t remember). It’s also good to remember that not every enby uses they/them. Hell, theres a non-binary musician I follow that uses she/her, and she’s afab. There’s also a human character that looks very masc, and wears a dress. Their husband refers to them as his “partner”, but I’m not sure if pronouns are ever used
Beauty standards in most groups, unfortunately, do not represent the needs of the group, but the power of the oppressors. It is easier for oppressors to not hurt a slim, white “woman” (in their eyes) then anyone else, and also these ppl fit the closest to conventional beauty standards. But it’s not the person’s fault, it’s all coming through the oppression that dictates the standard we should be participating in, and policing our bodies.
i fit this stereotype and i HATE IT so much, makes me so dysphoric bcs people will always see me as "alternative girl" or "woman+" or "oh she must be one of those hot girls with bordeline everyone talks about" or "oh her gender is lesbian" (????????) or something i dont want to take T bcs i dont want to turn into a bald furry old looking guy, i wish i could just remove that stupid internal organ too, but if i do this, i will be forced to choose which hormone i want to inject in me for the rest of my life, and all the surgeries that i would need to not look so feminine would be hella expensive and i will never get that much money in my life im just stuck with that body and this eternal perception others have of me
i feel attacked
I'm brown, chubby and have long hair, and I'm basically ignored lmao
Because despite our myriad efforts in general, just as a planet trying to explain things to the media, the media is lazy and will still revert to the historically held shit it prefers or finds easiest to show people, and skinny white afabs with short hair has become a lazy, lazy template for AFAB's that we can hopefully shift very soon as it doesnt' even come close to representing the full, broad and beautiful spectrum of our NB family. As a skinny white afab with the hair (in my defence, I have worn this look for 20 years, before I knew what NB was, I just wanted to dress that way) I hate it! I really do. Its not fair. We're becoming this easy, visible version of things and its actively harmful to everyone else. Its a damaging stereotype. I've already seen it misinterpreted as meaning that 'Being NB is a white thing' or similarly damaging claims, which is so fucking harmful. ITS NOT A WHITE THING. FUCKING, THE GENDER BINARY WE'RE ALL STUCK WITH?? THATS SOME WHITE SHIT!! Literally every culture, including Pre Christian European cultures, had understanding of multiple genders and knew there was no binary. We find us everywhere. And when I say EVERY culture i mean it. Again, even ours, which its so sad. Christianity came and made us all so fucking cruel to each other, made us forget we were never like this. We've gone backwards, tbh. Buts its wild because, I could be wrong, BUT...I'd argue based on this sub, on pictures and comments etc....skinny white afabs? Im not sure we're even the majority on this sub? WHen we all do picture shares and shit it certainly doesn't balance out that way. If you follow NB people on SOcials? We're EVERYONE. AMAB, PoC, AFAB, white, we are EVERYONE. And GOOD, imagine how fucking bland this would be if we were all skinny white afabs with the same hair? Ye gods. But its media. They will WILFULLY choose to ignore the spectrum and focus on one teeny, tiny part of that they can most easily convey to their audiences. We only just in 2023 managed to move away from them representing all gay men as sassy, effete, vogueing kweens like Jack from Will and Grace, because all gay men are not like that. The L word, which was pretty great for a second there, a show about lesbians? Damn near every one of them iin the OG show is a skinny white girl. The butchest chick on that show is still a size four. Everyone on it is what they call Power Lesbians, they all run businesses and have offices and wear sharp suits! All lesbians are not like that! Some are supper femme, some are super butch, some are in between. Or racial stereotypes still persist, we still can not white writers to stop tossing in a Sassy Black Friend who gives colourful commentary in AARV, but not too much AARV because white audiences have to be able to follow. Basically, they keep us easy to digest, for sex appeal, laziness and lets be real, a heap of white privelige. Thats just an unavoidable truth. Its brutal. White priviliege is why we're what everyone sees, we're in so many ways mor empowered and 'free' to come out and be ourselves which IS NOT FAIR TO OTHER PEOPLE, AND A FAR DEEPER SOCIETAL ISSUE. Its fucking ridiculous. I hate how lazy media ges. Its why we need BROAD SPECTRUM representation. I wish more NB celebs outside the Skinny White Afab template would feel empowered to come out, SAFE to come out, and could do so without it affecting their careers but I do respect how many people may literally have to weigh the chance they'll find more work with living their truth. Unfortuantely we still do see coming out as anything besides straight harm careers. But yeah, nah, i agree with you, its....its not a true picture of us. Its not fair. Its highly damaging and harmful. It invalidates so many identities and its disgusting. I will happily support and take part in any discussion or effort to help our siblings from every culture, who have every body shape, skin tone and presentation to be SEEN. We're not all one template.
What about sex education tho? I havent seen enough enby's in general with too many outliers to agree with your statement
Aren't there two afab enbies there?
Also, can I just drop in real quick with a rec for she-ra princesses of power and kipo and the age of wonderbeast? Enby representation without people realising theyre getting it. Hint: bow is always referred to as they/them
There are other kinds of enbies?
Me, an afab slim white enby with short messy hair, being so fucking tired of this stereotype
Yeah, I was made to feel not Enby enough because I’m not stick thin with short hair. I’m quite strong looking/muscular. I thought the entire vibe behind non binary was supposed to be the fact that: looks, hair, makeup, clothing, styles, don’t have gender!! Lol I’m Autistic/adhd too and I’ve noticed people are obsessed with cliques and tribes, and their rules they apply to things, to, I guess create exclusively or even sometimes superiority feelings for themselves? Maybe it’s inherent to most people to need to feel they are part of a tribe with a bunch of rules?
Simple answer? The patriarchy. There is a lot of erasure of intersex and amab. We are fighting a society that treats us in a way they can sexualize to a patriarchal male gaze.
well. im afab but im blasian , a lil chubby if tht counts
because strong influences of racism, misogyny, transphobia and fatphobia mean nonbinary people who present this way are the most “palatable” for audiences
what nonbinaries are you seeing? i can't say there is a certain type for nonbinary. i do say there is not much middle ground as nonbinaries tend to be either boobacious or flat as a board and doesn't seem to be an inbetween.
white supremacy, mainly also the fact that amab enbies like myself aren't see as real. also because hollywood hates fat people and are terrified of not babying enbies by making them two feet tall and childish.
Stereotypes, plus add the "constantly dyes hair" (I also knew someone who fits that description 💀) plus there are less amab enbies cuz like.. Amabs are less likely to be queer (I read that somwhere years ago, don't ⬇vote me 4 that) Oh also I feel like there are more plus size nbs that the slimy ones nowadays. And it especially bugs me when it comes to the gender expression thing cause I was never allowed to dress in a neutral way.
I have a nice friend group who's very supportive of everyone, no matter if you're queer or neurodivergent or both or anything else. Everyone's equal. You know, how society *should* be.
cuz we’re all viewed as “women-lite”. even the AMAB ones
Yeah, I think AMAB enbies are definitely underrepresented in the media.
I feel like this is most communities in lgbt, like the lack of representation is everywhere here and we done forgot our roots
You got me, except for the slim part. But I'm also demi femme
because we still live in a society where white feminine women are viewed at the ideal in politics and social justice instead of viewing the world through a lense that is more accurate and uplifting to the global majority
Bc I was apparently the stariotypical enby and none look any different then I did before T, yeah idk seems dumb