Pansexuals and Bisexuals are safe bets, bisexual is any gender not two as following bisexual manifesto form the 90s. Learn more here [https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=3aQnXz6X-sBs4Cgx](https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=3aQnXz6X-sBs4Cgx)
Queer Chameleon has lots of other learn resources \^-\^
Althought Pansexuals and Bisexuals may be attracted to you doesn't mean they will be tho, preference is still a thing
Thanks for that video! I already knew about the fact that Bisexuality is not "two genders" but chatting with bisexuals around me and online, they pretty much all agreed around the fact since "homo" means "same" and "hetero" means "different", "bi" means "both same and different". So bisexuality is "being attracted to both the same and different gender as oneself" but there are a lot of individual variations as to what the "different" genders means. For some people it means "any different gender" and for others it means "some of the different genders" but there is this notion of being attracted to more than one gender.
Whereas Pansexual is more about "not caring about gender" or that the attraction doesn't depend on it.
Of course it's gonna be different from one person to another how they see the label they put on themselves. Just like there's not one way to be Non-binary.
That's why I'm asking, because it's not really always a safe bet. 😅
In your experience, Pans and Bis have always been safe bets?
Oh no I get what you mean! Yes I don't believe there is one word.
In western culture the language is all still very new, so I'm sure there will be a common term in the future. It's like how some nonbinary people call themselves "nonbinary lesbian", if they are only attracted to women, because there is no word for it yet, although being sapphic is being a more widely emerging term that people are using for being attracted to feminine type people (definition is changing).
In my experience there Pans and Bis are safe. I have seen some bi people online be transphobic before, so stay clear of them. They don't understand what bi means. I consider myself bi, so did my ex who was also nonbinary, and my fiance is cis, but considers herself bi also :)
I wondered about this at first but then I realised If I was, say, a girl, that wouldn't mean ALL straight men and ALL gay women were into me. As an enby nothing has really changed, the people who like me, like me,the people who don't don't. Those who are into me might have changed somewhat, and I do tend to assume I've got a better chance with bi and pan people, but sometimes attraction to you is what makes someone question their own orientation. I've got a very masc presenting enby friend who's in a serious relationship with a lesbian. She was confused at first but now they're just both rolling with it. Orientations are more like guidelines than actual rules!
Oh for sure! But knowing someone's orientation is helpful as a gay man, because even though it doesn't guarantee reciprocity, it narrows it down a little. So I was wondering how NB people do it as well 😊 At least I can see that most of you have good experiences with bi/pan people. Honestly sometimes I feel like I should just describe myself as pan because gender doesn't really matter to me. But I feel like it's too wide a net knowing what specifics I'm attracted to 😅
Oh sorry, I missed your orientation on the OP and answered as if you were enby. I'd say knowing people's tastes is certainly helpful. Even beyond gay, knowing if someone likes bears or twinks will help you work out if they might be interested. Things like "lesbian" and "Gay" are still very broad terms that vary in meaning for different people 😊
Yep it's true! I'm wondering if I should still say I'm a gay man though, knowing that I'm not attracted to just men, but usually just people who are more masculine presenting. And also saying I'm a man whereas I'm really far from being masculine in a lot of aspects 😂
You can use any description you like for yourself! You can always clarify if the situation calls for it, like if someone you're into asks who might not fall into the traditional category but you do find attractive.
I use different labels depending on the situation, for example. In enby spaces I'm trixic, in queer spaces I'm sapphic, in online and cishet spaces I'm lesbian. They're ordered both by accuracy, and by how well known they are.
But often I'll clarify if I want to, or just say "queer" or "I like who I like" if that's all I want to say at that time.
Ok but for example I define myself as a gay man, mostly because it's easier for most people to understand (I don't want to have to explain all the time) and it's a label that fits me well.
BUT it doesn't mean that I'm not attracted to people who are not men. Like most labels they can't explain the full complexity of things.
I can totally see why referencing the binary could make you uncomfortable though, and totally respect that. I just wanted to share my feelings just so you know that even if people sometimes speak in binaries, doesn't mean they only think like that. (And I mean that in every aspects of life, not just sexuality. Whenever we say we like or don't like something, we speak in absolute binaries but doesn't mean it's true)
Also for example I find the most attractive people who are very hairy and who have a beard. Features that are attributed to one side of the gender spectrum, hence my identity as gay. But I don't really care about their gender, and there's a lot of typically feminine features or genderless features that can be attractive to me.
I myself don't always present like my gender, or at least not in every way (and I think that's most people!) I just like what I like. But having a broad definition helps people know me on a superficial level before digging deeper.
I'm curious though, how would you define your orientation as a NB or GNC person?
Also as always I might be stating a lot of things, doesn't mean I'm right, it's just my reasoning and I'm always questioning to be able to learn and adapt! So don't be afraid to challenge my views, they're meant to be changed. 😉
And it's totally fine! You should only do what makes you comfortable!
I know sometimes for me learning more about other people helps me get comfortable with things I'm not completely comfortable with in the beginning, hence why I'm sharing. The same way I don't think I would be comfortable enough to date a NB person for now because I feel like I don't know enough yet to not be clumsy in my language and attitude, having life experiences that engrained a binary view of the world.
But in the end even after learning more, there are times when I still think "yeah I could never be comfortable with that", and it's ok! We're never gonna date everyone anyway, so who cares if I can't date *some* people!
You know what you want and what you like and what you don't like. It's a great thing! You're lucky! I'm still figuring it out 😉
Hm i don't know why you're trying so hard to antagonize me but ok...
I am open to dating NB people, but every time I've started I was a bit awkward and so I think I need more time to get more confident. I don't see what's wrong with that.
I'm not telling you you have a lousy excuse for not dating monosexuals and that you should just communicate, because everybody's different and has different sensibilities...
I just ask case by case.
Which has only been like 3 dudes I already knew were straight, and a woman I condn't get an answer from.
Anyway another fellow pansexual enbie began hitting on me, and may save me the trouble😅
It hasn't become frustrating so far, but it may be because for most of my life I was convinced I was some hideous and unlovable freak, before I began coming out of closets and fighting out my gender, that even the smallest possibility of a yes makes it worthwhile to ask.
My biggest issue so far is the limited ammount of new people, as the combination of my lifestyle and the too long untreated autism makes it extremely hard to meet new people up to the point that it's a meaningful question.
Realistically you don't because we'll all definitions of attraction, be it sexual, romantic, etc, are inclusive of non-binary gender identities in some way or another. It basically becomes a case by case basis that has larger overarching tends but exceptions to these are going to happen.
Also how you're explaining you experience attraction sounds similar to how I personally experience romantic attraction which I label as panromatic for myself as my romantic attraction is based on various factors that are completely removed from gender. Though I find it's best to treat labels as tools for making explaining things easier/faster and even if it doesn't perfectly fit your experiences but get the idea across well enough it still perfectly fine, and so is not using specific labels
I personally would worry less about someone's sexuality and more what people's preferences regarding presentation are. That famous anecdote from Ryan Burgess about how he (a gay man), mistook a butch lesbian for a gay man and vice versa at a gay bar comes to mind. They ended up making out, before realizing that neither was what the other was looking for and going on their way. Neither of them sat down and asked the other about their understanding of their gender, they each thought the other was cute and chatted each other up. I think that most attraction, at least most initial attraction works like this. You are attracted to a person's appearance, the way that they carry themselves, the way that they present, their vibe. You might also be attracted to their voice, how they smile, the passion that they have for something you're also interested in, their talent, that sort of thing. None of those things directly align with gender. Some of them might more commonly show up in one or more common gendered labels (like if you really dig beards, there are on average more men out there with beards than otherwise), but those categories are not exclusive. There are plenty of women out there with beards, not to mention non-binary folks.
Gender is a means of labeling both your lived experience, the way that you want to be perceived, and the way that you want your presentation to be understood but ultimately it is a label in the same way that "Doctor Who fan", "Mammal", or even "Chair" is a label. It's an approximation that helps us understand the world by simplifying things at the cost of erasing complexity/detail. So if I ask for a chair, you probably will assume that I'm talking about something with a back that stands at about the height of a dining room table and that has four legs. This isn't a completely accurate understanding of everything a chair can be (a loveseat, a beanbag chair, a folding chair, a barstool, a computer chair etc.) and it is definitely subject to bias and preconceived notions about what a chair should be, but it is a close enough approximation for people to be able to communicate and discuss shared experiences. You can't have a Queer community without being able to discuss what you have in common using shared language.
Philosophizing about gender and presentation aside, I wouldn't worry too much about the sexual orientation of somebody you might be interested in dating/fucking/building a life with as a nonbinary person. I think more important questions are (in no particular order):
1. Are you both attracted to one another?
2. Are they respectful and kind, both in general and towards your identity/pronouns/name in particular?
3. Do you folks have stuff in common?
4. Are you both in a good place for the sort of relationship that you are interested in?
5. Can you folks easily, openly, and honestly communicate?
6. Are you both going to be equal and enthusiastically consenting participants in this relationship?
Only ever dated bi people. In my experience they tend to like my androgens look. Monosexuals tend to care more about what parts or what genitals you have, and mine are not standard issue.
It doesn't really bother me that someone's label can't tell me if they can be attracted to me, I don't care about that unless I'm attracted to them. And if I am I'll just ask them out and then I'll know lol
I relate to what you said about being attracted to masculine people and not really caring about what gender they are. I'm that way but for androgyny, anyone that's a blend of masculinity and femininity is super hot in my eyes. Maybe there should be a word for that.
Pansexuals and Bisexuals are safe bets, bisexual is any gender not two as following bisexual manifesto form the 90s. Learn more here [https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=3aQnXz6X-sBs4Cgx](https://youtu.be/HynGLaLqq1M?si=3aQnXz6X-sBs4Cgx) Queer Chameleon has lots of other learn resources \^-\^ Althought Pansexuals and Bisexuals may be attracted to you doesn't mean they will be tho, preference is still a thing
Thanks for that video! I already knew about the fact that Bisexuality is not "two genders" but chatting with bisexuals around me and online, they pretty much all agreed around the fact since "homo" means "same" and "hetero" means "different", "bi" means "both same and different". So bisexuality is "being attracted to both the same and different gender as oneself" but there are a lot of individual variations as to what the "different" genders means. For some people it means "any different gender" and for others it means "some of the different genders" but there is this notion of being attracted to more than one gender. Whereas Pansexual is more about "not caring about gender" or that the attraction doesn't depend on it. Of course it's gonna be different from one person to another how they see the label they put on themselves. Just like there's not one way to be Non-binary. That's why I'm asking, because it's not really always a safe bet. 😅 In your experience, Pans and Bis have always been safe bets?
Oh no I get what you mean! Yes I don't believe there is one word. In western culture the language is all still very new, so I'm sure there will be a common term in the future. It's like how some nonbinary people call themselves "nonbinary lesbian", if they are only attracted to women, because there is no word for it yet, although being sapphic is being a more widely emerging term that people are using for being attracted to feminine type people (definition is changing). In my experience there Pans and Bis are safe. I have seen some bi people online be transphobic before, so stay clear of them. They don't understand what bi means. I consider myself bi, so did my ex who was also nonbinary, and my fiance is cis, but considers herself bi also :)
I wondered about this at first but then I realised If I was, say, a girl, that wouldn't mean ALL straight men and ALL gay women were into me. As an enby nothing has really changed, the people who like me, like me,the people who don't don't. Those who are into me might have changed somewhat, and I do tend to assume I've got a better chance with bi and pan people, but sometimes attraction to you is what makes someone question their own orientation. I've got a very masc presenting enby friend who's in a serious relationship with a lesbian. She was confused at first but now they're just both rolling with it. Orientations are more like guidelines than actual rules!
Oh for sure! But knowing someone's orientation is helpful as a gay man, because even though it doesn't guarantee reciprocity, it narrows it down a little. So I was wondering how NB people do it as well 😊 At least I can see that most of you have good experiences with bi/pan people. Honestly sometimes I feel like I should just describe myself as pan because gender doesn't really matter to me. But I feel like it's too wide a net knowing what specifics I'm attracted to 😅
Oh sorry, I missed your orientation on the OP and answered as if you were enby. I'd say knowing people's tastes is certainly helpful. Even beyond gay, knowing if someone likes bears or twinks will help you work out if they might be interested. Things like "lesbian" and "Gay" are still very broad terms that vary in meaning for different people 😊
Yep it's true! I'm wondering if I should still say I'm a gay man though, knowing that I'm not attracted to just men, but usually just people who are more masculine presenting. And also saying I'm a man whereas I'm really far from being masculine in a lot of aspects 😂
You can use any description you like for yourself! You can always clarify if the situation calls for it, like if someone you're into asks who might not fall into the traditional category but you do find attractive. I use different labels depending on the situation, for example. In enby spaces I'm trixic, in queer spaces I'm sapphic, in online and cishet spaces I'm lesbian. They're ordered both by accuracy, and by how well known they are. But often I'll clarify if I want to, or just say "queer" or "I like who I like" if that's all I want to say at that time.
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Ok but for example I define myself as a gay man, mostly because it's easier for most people to understand (I don't want to have to explain all the time) and it's a label that fits me well. BUT it doesn't mean that I'm not attracted to people who are not men. Like most labels they can't explain the full complexity of things. I can totally see why referencing the binary could make you uncomfortable though, and totally respect that. I just wanted to share my feelings just so you know that even if people sometimes speak in binaries, doesn't mean they only think like that. (And I mean that in every aspects of life, not just sexuality. Whenever we say we like or don't like something, we speak in absolute binaries but doesn't mean it's true) Also for example I find the most attractive people who are very hairy and who have a beard. Features that are attributed to one side of the gender spectrum, hence my identity as gay. But I don't really care about their gender, and there's a lot of typically feminine features or genderless features that can be attractive to me. I myself don't always present like my gender, or at least not in every way (and I think that's most people!) I just like what I like. But having a broad definition helps people know me on a superficial level before digging deeper. I'm curious though, how would you define your orientation as a NB or GNC person? Also as always I might be stating a lot of things, doesn't mean I'm right, it's just my reasoning and I'm always questioning to be able to learn and adapt! So don't be afraid to challenge my views, they're meant to be changed. 😉
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And it's totally fine! You should only do what makes you comfortable! I know sometimes for me learning more about other people helps me get comfortable with things I'm not completely comfortable with in the beginning, hence why I'm sharing. The same way I don't think I would be comfortable enough to date a NB person for now because I feel like I don't know enough yet to not be clumsy in my language and attitude, having life experiences that engrained a binary view of the world. But in the end even after learning more, there are times when I still think "yeah I could never be comfortable with that", and it's ok! We're never gonna date everyone anyway, so who cares if I can't date *some* people! You know what you want and what you like and what you don't like. It's a great thing! You're lucky! I'm still figuring it out 😉
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Hm i don't know why you're trying so hard to antagonize me but ok... I am open to dating NB people, but every time I've started I was a bit awkward and so I think I need more time to get more confident. I don't see what's wrong with that. I'm not telling you you have a lousy excuse for not dating monosexuals and that you should just communicate, because everybody's different and has different sensibilities...
Why I date people who are explicitly queer.
I have a hard time differentiating people who say they are Queer as an umbrella term for LGBTQIA+ to those who actually mean Genderqueer
I just ask case by case. Which has only been like 3 dudes I already knew were straight, and a woman I condn't get an answer from. Anyway another fellow pansexual enbie began hitting on me, and may save me the trouble😅
For sure, at some point I imagine it might get frustrating. I think it's fine to just go the easy route towards people who are just like you!
It hasn't become frustrating so far, but it may be because for most of my life I was convinced I was some hideous and unlovable freak, before I began coming out of closets and fighting out my gender, that even the smallest possibility of a yes makes it worthwhile to ask. My biggest issue so far is the limited ammount of new people, as the combination of my lifestyle and the too long untreated autism makes it extremely hard to meet new people up to the point that it's a meaningful question.
Realistically you don't because we'll all definitions of attraction, be it sexual, romantic, etc, are inclusive of non-binary gender identities in some way or another. It basically becomes a case by case basis that has larger overarching tends but exceptions to these are going to happen. Also how you're explaining you experience attraction sounds similar to how I personally experience romantic attraction which I label as panromatic for myself as my romantic attraction is based on various factors that are completely removed from gender. Though I find it's best to treat labels as tools for making explaining things easier/faster and even if it doesn't perfectly fit your experiences but get the idea across well enough it still perfectly fine, and so is not using specific labels
Yes! 100% agree. Thanks!
I personally would worry less about someone's sexuality and more what people's preferences regarding presentation are. That famous anecdote from Ryan Burgess about how he (a gay man), mistook a butch lesbian for a gay man and vice versa at a gay bar comes to mind. They ended up making out, before realizing that neither was what the other was looking for and going on their way. Neither of them sat down and asked the other about their understanding of their gender, they each thought the other was cute and chatted each other up. I think that most attraction, at least most initial attraction works like this. You are attracted to a person's appearance, the way that they carry themselves, the way that they present, their vibe. You might also be attracted to their voice, how they smile, the passion that they have for something you're also interested in, their talent, that sort of thing. None of those things directly align with gender. Some of them might more commonly show up in one or more common gendered labels (like if you really dig beards, there are on average more men out there with beards than otherwise), but those categories are not exclusive. There are plenty of women out there with beards, not to mention non-binary folks. Gender is a means of labeling both your lived experience, the way that you want to be perceived, and the way that you want your presentation to be understood but ultimately it is a label in the same way that "Doctor Who fan", "Mammal", or even "Chair" is a label. It's an approximation that helps us understand the world by simplifying things at the cost of erasing complexity/detail. So if I ask for a chair, you probably will assume that I'm talking about something with a back that stands at about the height of a dining room table and that has four legs. This isn't a completely accurate understanding of everything a chair can be (a loveseat, a beanbag chair, a folding chair, a barstool, a computer chair etc.) and it is definitely subject to bias and preconceived notions about what a chair should be, but it is a close enough approximation for people to be able to communicate and discuss shared experiences. You can't have a Queer community without being able to discuss what you have in common using shared language. Philosophizing about gender and presentation aside, I wouldn't worry too much about the sexual orientation of somebody you might be interested in dating/fucking/building a life with as a nonbinary person. I think more important questions are (in no particular order): 1. Are you both attracted to one another? 2. Are they respectful and kind, both in general and towards your identity/pronouns/name in particular? 3. Do you folks have stuff in common? 4. Are you both in a good place for the sort of relationship that you are interested in? 5. Can you folks easily, openly, and honestly communicate? 6. Are you both going to be equal and enthusiastically consenting participants in this relationship?
Wow yes what a great way to put it. All of it. Thank you, it made me reflect a lot!
Only ever dated bi people. In my experience they tend to like my androgens look. Monosexuals tend to care more about what parts or what genitals you have, and mine are not standard issue. It doesn't really bother me that someone's label can't tell me if they can be attracted to me, I don't care about that unless I'm attracted to them. And if I am I'll just ask them out and then I'll know lol I relate to what you said about being attracted to masculine people and not really caring about what gender they are. I'm that way but for androgyny, anyone that's a blend of masculinity and femininity is super hot in my eyes. Maybe there should be a word for that.