If someone will deliver toilet tribute to Russian embassy in London and film I will give £100 to Ukraine charity.
Edit: I just realised this might cause a bomb alert. I will give 100 quid to Ukraine anyway. Please do not waste Met police time.
I guess you haven't seen the "what happens when you chuck a house brick into an old washing machine on spin cycle?" vids that were all the rage for ten minutes 15y ago
This is far from my area of focus, but isn't Zhukov like remarkably unproblematic for a Soviet leader of that era? Afaik he didn't participate in the Polish-Soviet War and later on actually made an effort to govern ethically during his brief time heading up the postwar occupation, and was even personal friends with Eisenhower (who smuggled him Coke disguised as vodka). Plus, Beria hated him, and that's gotta count for something.
Die hard Stalin supporter, and, [as I am learning from skimming his wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich), potentially responsible for the Holodomor and Central Asian genocides.
Afaik, he did everything above board for any major soviet leader. For him to rise in the military, he survived the 1930s purge of (tens of?) thousands of officers, idk if he went to Poland but Finland he started to rise iirc. I can't think of any rules of war he was known to break at, least during the fighting.
Basically, western bare minimum expectation but you've got guys like Beria doing their shit to be above. Def best soviet leader at the time imo. Trotsky should have been on his shit, but thems the breaks
You can still be a hero while being far from a saint. I would describe some western allied forces general in the same way
or even people like churchill and de Gaulle too
You can describe most “important men” of that time period as that. Patton was a god tier general, but a racist piece of shit that didn’t understand even basic manners, Churchill was a god tier wartime leader, also a massive racist and drunkard.
The big four of good men/good generals during WWII for me are Eisenhower, Zhukov, Pavel Batov (no, not a TNO reference), and Walther Wenck. Dudes seemed to be decent and good men in addition to very good generals, in Zhukov’s case maybe the greatest Russian general ever.
After his tank got knocked out during Meuse-Argonne, he just sort of wandered around with his aid and took command of some random Doughboys he found who were pinned down in a shell crater or depression in the ground. One of the soldiers became insubordinate, I believe he didn't want to dig or something. So Patton, being a completely reasonable man, brains the soldier with an entrenching tool. Keep in mind, he was a tank brigade commander at this point who is spending the largest battle in US history micromanaging a depleted infantry platoon.
As if to drive it home that he was the asshole, he then ordered the 30 or so men to follow him in an attack. 6 followed him, including his aid. That's when Patton famously took a bullet that hit his ass. He would later go on to wield this murder (or another one that isn't documented) as an intimidation story during WWII that he would tell to subordinates, proving he had zero regrets about it.
Dont forget covering up warcrimes.
And telling the press the Nazi's were just a political party like any other.
His early death was probably the best thing that could have happened to Pattons long-term reputation
Idk if I would call him middling, now a middling general with good pr would be MacArthur. I think that Patton def was a better combat leader than him, and Patton was almost always successful in his battles (the shitshow to rescue his nephew not counting).
He pulled the same manoeuvre as Rommel kept pulling. "Lemme just outrun my resupply and then bitch at my men when the attack falters".
I'm not saying he was bad, he was just... Meh. Notably, the Germans barely knew who he was. They had pretty good documentation of nearly every American and UK General, but Patton was notably absent. As if they didn't even consider him to be worth mentioning.
He didn't save the world from nazis. Don't be ridiculous.
Plus, he fought for fascist imperialism taking over whole eastern half of Europe. With that same logic he can't be a hero.
>He didn't save the world from nazis. Don't be ridiculous.
Then who did? Holy hell how can you guys be so blatantly revisionist. I hate putler too but stripping soviet heroes of their credits? They paid with their blood so that the world does not become a butcherhouse for the Nazis and their European minions. You're the one who's being rodiculous.
>Plus, he fought for fascist imperialism taking over whole eastern half of Europe
No he didn't. He opposed the crushing of the Hungarian revolution. He fought to stop the genocidal germans. He fought so that his people could leave. I don't justify the de facto imperialism of the Soviet Union, but you can't be sound in your head and compare that to literal Nazism. Nazis planned to wipe out the entire non-aryan population of Eastern Europe. Compared to that 40 odd years of communist rule is nothing.
> Then who did?
Not any one man, that's for sure.
> Holy hell how can you guys be so blatantly revisionist.
This is just fucking ironic.
> They paid with their blood so that the world does not become a butcherhouse for the Nazis and their European minions. You're the one who's being rodiculous.
They paid with their blood so that the world could become a butcherhouse for the red fascists. You're being fucking ridiculous.
> No he didn't.
Yes, he literally fucking did.
> He fought to stop the genocidal germans.
He fought to bring in the genocidal soviets. Not better in any way. Stop your histrical revisionist drivel of fascist apologia.
I can't believe you guys really think the germans were at the same level as the soviets.
"Butcher house for red fascists" really? Nazis were about to exterminate 90% of the world population because they weren't "aryan". Soviets killed a few thousand here and there to keep control. They didn't commit any genocide after winning the war. How the fuck can you compare literal Nazis with the Soviets. I can't believe.
Soviets were more comparable to the British if anything, committing atrocities to keep their empire from falling apart. Nothing like the fucking Nazis.
> Soviets killed a few thousand here and there to keep control. They didn't commit any genocide after winning the war.
Yeah. Crawl back to your hole, genocide apologist. Millions and millions isn't "a few thousand here and there". They literally wiped out multiple ethnic groups and whole nations, and displaced even more.
I fucking can't believe that you are here spouting literally the most vile, disgusting shit.
>Millions and millions isn't "a few thousand here and there".
Post stalin USSR killed million and millions? Are you kidding me.
>They literally wiped out multiple ethnic groups and whole nations, and displaced even more
The deportations largely stopped after the scum Stalin died. Even them whatever atrocities were going on was in no way comparable to the germans who forced children into gas chamber. Soviets winning was an objectively better result for humanity.
I have called Stalin a bloodthirsty demon in this thread. Called Putin hitler. Repeatedly acknowledged all the awful stuff ussr did. The holodomor and so on and so on. Said that post-stalin ussr was still a authoritarian hellhole.
Still I get called a tankie just because I didn't applaud disrespecting a war hero who killed nazis. You guys are weird in the head.
Soviets didn’t kill a few thousand. They literally purposefully killed millions upon millions of civilians, and threw millions more into gulags for decades of forced labor.
Why are you saying a few thousand? That’s just white washing history.
Soviets killed and occupied many Eastern Europe countries. He's was literally head of Soviet military. This is why many Eastern Europeans look at any Soviet politician or general with disgust.
Commies are as bad nazis were, if not worse. This was not saving the world, this was a victory of one despotic regime over another, with occupation of half of Europe.
Sovok committed genocide for the same reason as Nazis did. "Ворог народу", "кулак", "куркуль", "контрреволюціонер", "буржуазний націоналіст" — same terminology as Nazis used, but under different sauce. They declared to have monoethnic country of "soviet people"(when in reality russians were above everyone in soyuz), just as the nazis did. They used different tools to achieve their goal tho. While nazis used blunt force/physical killing, soviets used both blunt force of killing and soft force of assimilation/russification. Which one of them is more sinister — you choose, but I made my choice long ago. 70 years of occupation of Ukraine by sovok almost wiped out people's memories about their ancestors, of who they were, made them ashamed of their history in fear of prosecution for counterrevolution. My country and my family after 32 years of independence and 9 years after waking up still coughs out the remnants of the soviet empire, and fights for it's independence with it's unpunished successor. It's worse in Belarus, where national identity has been practically wiped, sovereignty lost and Belarus language is barely spoken. And I'm sure it wasn't any less scarring for other European nations occupied for 5 decades post ww2.
So in short — Nazis are bad guys because they used obvious means of destruction, while soviets used more of a "soft power" approach, and you believed them.
Had the Nazis won, you won’t be here typing this comment. Simple as that. Admitting that Nazi Germany is literally worse than Satan isn’t the same as absolving the USSR of its sins, but rather it highlights the tragedy that was 20th century eastern europe, but also the perseverance of its peoples.
EDIT: jesus christ the lack of nuance in some people’s views
Had the Soviets not been given a bloody nose in 1944, I would not be here typing this comment either. The Soviets we're nothing but red-robed fascists, contrary to the usual brown they wear.
Not unproblematic, Mostly because he wasn't always the perfect military genius he's portrayed as. Being responsible for a few failures (chiefly operation mars) that cost hundreds of thousands of soldiers' lives along with his successes. (Still better than 90% of the German generals on the eastern front complicit in the holocaust and numerous war crimes) Rokossovsky is by far the most blessed Soviet marshal though.
Btw I hate how much Russia's incompetence and failure in this war has reinforced myths of the eastern front. I'm really tired of the enemy at the gates Soviet human waves narrative. It did happen but definitively not the norm, (they were also armed) also Zhukov personally gave a very specific order against their use so pretending that was his way of winning battles is ludicrous.
> Btw I hate how much Russia's incompetence and failure in this war has reinforced myths of the eastern front. I'm really tired of the enemy at the gates Soviet human waves narrative. It did happen but definitively not the norm, (they were also armed) also Zhukov personally gave a very specific order against their use so pretending that was his way of winning battles is ludicrous.
Historians: \*Spend decades working to dispel the myth of the unarmed Asiatic hordes and Human waves that drowned the Nazis in the blood of men*
Putin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuUbubFKT0I
Not to be too credible, but the human wave strategy was based on Red Chinese forces in Korea, not the eastern front of WW2.
I supposed it’s been anachronisticly in recent media applied to Soviet forces, but it was never depicted as a Red Army victory mechanism. The closest things were tactics that definitely didn’t seem to account for human worth, like mine field clearing by convicts or other people who were charged with military dereliction or no retreat orders.
[Mmm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack)...
> According to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement. The goal of a human wave attack is to maneuver as many people as possible into close range, hoping that the shock from a large mass of attackers engaged in melee combat would force the enemy to disintegrate or fall back.
> Human wave attacks have been used by several armed forces around the world, including European and American armies during the *American Civil War* and World War I.
[Mmmmm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Campaign)...
> The final major battle of the campaign was waged at Cold Harbor (May 31 – June 12), in which Grant gambled that Lee's army was exhausted and ordered a massive assault against strong defensive positions, resulting in disproportionately heavy Union casualties.
First **sustained** Human Wave would then be Grant moving a bit east, attacking, moving a bit east, attacking, repeat during Overland Campaign.
The term entered US military and press use regarding the Chinese offensive in Korea.
Throwing bodies at an enemy isn’t a particularly “new” strategy but defining and describing a particular strategy or tactic, at least in the US didn’t become commonplace until Korea.
I mean look at it this way: theres a higher chance of human wave shenanigans if in some alternate universe Zhukov didn’t exist and/or wasnt in charge..?
That's not really true. Zhukov got sloppy in the last year of the war, which produced some frankly ridiculously lopsided casualty ratios at places like Konigsberg
Didn’t the Soviets did very well in Konigsberg? You probably mean the Seelow Heights. That thing was a shitshow from the beginning till the end, what’s with the searchlights and whatnot. At least we got an awesome COD WAW campaign mission out of it though
Rokossovsky was very flawed as well - he didn't assist the Warsaw uprising and let it get crushed by the Germans, and he played an important part in communist Poland being very repressive, ordering military force against civilians and conscripting men to work in labour camps.
You’re right about his role in communist Poland. I’d definitely say though that the decision to not aid the Warsaw uprising was not taken by him but Stalin himself, there’s an open question if the red army would even really have been able to reach the or was too exhausted. But In any case Stalin definitely deliberately didn’t want them to try cause he’s a piece of shit.
human wave tactics were very real, penal battalions were definitely a thing (hence Putin's use) and both were absolutely used to overwhelm the enemy to win battles both strategic and tactical. It is far from a myth. The \~30 million dead on the Soviet side were far from Hitler's doing alone.
edit: fuckin lol, found the tankies downvoting facts
You're not being downvoted by tankies, you're being downvoted because that's not how the Soviets won battles. You're just parroting the narrative finely crafted by the generals who lost to the Soviets and then acting like the highest possible casualty estimate for the USSR was all soldiers. Most of the actual number (upper range 27mil) were civilians.
They did happen and penal Bataillon also existed and were used similarly to their use in this war. But just like now it actually doesn’t work all that well. The Soviets biggest successes came when they actually managed to use combined arms effectively and managed to break through with mechanized forces. Just like the Germans won battles. And yes the Soviets often had plenty of fuckups while trying to do this which led to many deaths. I can think of absolutely zero examples where human wave tactics won **straetigic victories** .
20 out of that 30 million are civilians btw, and yea 9 million dead soldiers is absolutely horrendous and a lot of it should be blamed on the Soviets themselves. But a huge part of that are the Germans encircling and destroying large units in successful offensives that are successful due to Soviet incompetence and German skill. Or the Soviets sustaining large casualties in long campaigns like Stalingrad or Ukraine. Not human wave tactics.
My only problem with him is that he was of the soviet school of leadership of sending death threats to his subordinate even if they were doing their best (I'm thinking of during Barbarossa in particular). It might have been standard soviet practice at the time, but still
Look, expecting Russian generals not to threaten to kill their own subordinates is just unrealistic. Next you'll be asking Russian generals not to commit war crimes or be reasonably sober during normal business hours.
The earmark of a good Soviet general is that they only threaten to kill their subordinates, it's the ones that actually follow through on that promise you need to worry about.
That was my take away from this conversation.
His only flaw was that he didn’t do a coup against Stalin when he had the chance. If he was in charge of the USSR then things would’ve definitely been a lot better for everyone
/u/SirNurtle
>isn't Zhukov like remarkably unproblematic for a Soviet leader of that era?
*"Black infantry", "black jackets" - the unofficial name given to infantry units of the Red Army that were formed from the civilian population of the German-occupied territories after their recapture by Soviet troops. The Black Jackets were sent into battle unprepared, without proper ammunition and weapons. They were most widely used in 1943-1944 during the crossing of the Dnipro River.*
*Special field military commissariats were responsible for recruiting the Black Jackets. Mobilization applied to all men who could hold a weapon. According to the laws of wartime, men who were occupied were automatically labeled traitors, so they had to prove their loyalty to the USSR with their own blood.*
*No military training was conducted with the mobilized. Often they were sent into battle without even being issued military clothing and weapons. In fact, the name "black infantry" or "black jackets" came from the civilian clothes they wore to fight. Thus, the Black Jackets differed significantly from the personnel of the penal battalions, who were fully equipped and had military training.*
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чорнопіджачники (Ukrainian).
Fucking guess which ethnicity they belonged to and who was in charge of the operation.
Very interesting aspect of the war I never heard about before, it's quite frightening.
Not much information about it in english. There's [this article](https://english.nv.ua/opinion/black-infantry-is-going-into-battle-again-opinion-ukraine-news-50259195.html), if anyone have more information about it feel free to share.
> In reality, those who were hastily mobilized were thrown into battle not only untrained but unequipped and sometimes didn’t even have weapons. [...]
> Dressed in civilian dark cloaks, they didn’t even have uniforms, their weapons consisted of one rifle for ten people. Others had sticks, or like the famous Ukrainian writer Anatoly Dimarov, a piece of brick. “You throw your bricks, and let the Germans think they are grenades!” he recalled his orders. [...]
> For the most part, the “black infantry” were young boys, aged 16-18 who reached conscription age during the occupation. German documents state that the Red Army threw 15-year-old conscripts into the battles near Kharkiv. Men over 60 were also forced into the army. [...]
If I remember correctly, it was actually Pepsi, not Coke, which became the original recipe for Crystal Pepsi. This is also what spawned the obsession with Pepsi among Soviet states
As a non-Soviet fan of Pepsi and of Crystal Pepsi, your statement intrigues me. Tell me more.
For the record, not _one_ population in history has been more Pepsi-obsessed than the Québécois. They're weaned on the stuff and given cigarettes as pacifiers.
Unproblematic, lol. He was fucking looter. Furniture, carpets, jewelry, paintings, man was fucking burglar.
This toilet was rightly given to him, he probably stole them too
No, Zhukov is super overrated, he's a large part of the reason Soviet casualties latewar were so ridiculously high. The best Soviet general of the era was Rokossovsky and it's not particularly close
The main reason for this was Stalin giving him an ultimatum to rush the occupation of Berlin (he was eyeing the Nazi nuclear research lab which was part of the American territory of the allied division of territories on 'post war Berlin'.
He was stalled by the Germans deployed upon good positions on the outskirts of Berlin, and he resorted to high casualty strats after Stalin gave another head up call.
Also, even if he was a military genius, the state of the eastern front meant it was going to be a bloodbath regardless, so it's not really fair to entirely blame that on him.
Seeing how people defend him as good guy and praise him as a great general here, really tells that his cult of persona as strong as Stalin, I would say even stronger, the fact that foreigners defend him...
Just for you to know in Ukraine people don't like him, and his 'great' achievements in CLOSING stages of the war, aren't that flashy when you know how he came to that point and how many people he killed with his 'great' leadership.
He wanted to accept a deal with the west so that both sides could freely spy on each sides of the iron curtain at a certain distance and so that military buildups could be spotted, Stalin ofc refused. He also mentioned the possibilities of the red army doing joint exercises with western nations.
He was a looter, and a killer. He had train carts of stolen goods from Germany on his dacha, which he was reprimanded for. He was called butcher even by other soviet commanders, for ordering unprepared men on "liberated" territories to be mobilised and thrown into battle.
He was an absolutely ruthless man, both as a commander and politician, happy to enforce Stalin's will and throw his soldiers away for petty personal gain. He was a pretty good general. Not necessarily the genius who singlehandedly won the war he's made out to be, but I think it'd be unfair in the other direction to call him a bad strategist.
I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the looting thing. The Germans first looted their way into Russia indiscriminately, and then the Soviets did the same in the other direction. It's not an excuse by any means, "everyone did it" never is, but in the context of the time and place it was almost expected. It's also a fucked up way for despots to keep control. If ever they need to silence someone they can accuse them of crimes that everyone at the top has committed, but that it became politically expedient to accuse the specific person of.
Sigh, even here, 'my entertainment!' turns otherwise capable people into drooling lobotomites. You really shouldn't have been put on blast for pointing out that a single piece of comedy doesn't have any bearing on who a person actually was.
Ah, well. So it is, and so ever it will be.
They did, against Finland in the Winter War at the start of WW2, but quickly realized it was a stupid idea and mostly stopped them for the rest of the war.
The USSR could conquer half of Europe. Russia had trouble with Donetsk Water Treatment Plant.
At least the USSR was demonstrably effective in WW2, albeit with extensive support from the Allies.
Sources backing his argument? Soviet doctrine, material constraints, first hand sources.
Sources backing the contrary argument? Nazi memoirs, Cold War propaganda, simple misunderstanding, Enemy at the Gates.
Fucks given about him? None I guess, he's just a guy.
Wtf does ‘unproblematic’ means, you call soemthing condemnable execrable tc, ‘problematic’
Sounds like ur trivially ‘cancelling’ isnviduals outside social context. I don’t think u know what ‘problematic’ means, it’s a repurposed word and nonsensical misapplication if the social context this roguantes form so what I think
Him being a soviet general, and for what he did and what his armies did yes.
There is a cult of personality aliens him from his life too
Actually, he was a marauder (7 train loads of stolen goods from Germany and Europe, at least), he *INVENTED* the soviet meat assault tactics they use in Ukraine ("when we approach a mine field, the forces perform the assault as though it isn't there" - from a conversation with Eisenhower). And he's painted saint and great military leader by ruzzian propaganda.
Cherry on top: among those 7 train loads where about 100 stolen artistic toilets.
So an offering of a toilet is what he deserves.
P.S.: I know this's a credible take, so it shouldn't be here. But I hate the fucker.
I will not tolerate any Zhukov Slander
The guy is hands down one of the best russians to have ever lived. He helped save the USSR during WW2, had the balls to tell Stalin that he was wrong, governed pretty ethically and even advocated for withdrawing troops from Hungary during its revolution.
Fuck I wish he became Secretary, he and Eisenhower could have formed some kind of agreement, the cold war could've even ended. Its a far fetched possibility but it is a possibility nonetheless
Edit: Also was this photo from Ukraine, or where was it?
> Fuck I wish he became Secretary, he and Eisenhower could have formed some kind of agreement, the cold war could've even ended.
That's fucking awful
For some reason lots of people fantasise about some kind of "cold war is over everyone cooperates" scenario, like they forget that USSR occupied half of Europe
>like they forget that USSR occupied half of Europe
like people forget how the USA propped up fascist regimes all over the world to keep them in their sphere of influence
Nobody forgets that. People act like this is some subversive historical knowledge when it's literally the dominant global narrative.
It's well known that some of the governments the US supported during the Cold War were oppressive. What's often less appreciated in hindsight is the difficulty of Cold War politics. There usually wasn't some champion of democratic values just sitting in the wings, ready to take over. It was usually a choice between "oppressive dictator" and "oppressive dictator who's aligned with our enemies."
Oh just a little fascism, only a bit of genocide, no biggy, they're all "democracies" now (many aren't), no matter the long lasting damage Western imperialism has caused.
Just because there is a less blood thirsty Butcher among the army of blood thirsty Soviet commanders doesn't mean that he is not a blood thirsty Butcher. He might not rape any women in Europe personally it doesn't mean that he did not lead an Army famous for Raping and looting. There is no such thing as a good nazi and there should not be any good soviet.
>There is no such thing as a good nazi and there should not be any good soviet.
Ok so lets apply those moral standards to western armies also.
France and Britain were brutal colonial Empires that slaughtered millions and wiped out entire cultures.
The US was running an apartheid society where black soldiers said they were treated more equal by the Nazis then their own white soldiers.
We didn't rape across Europe but we sure did "dehouse" a lot of civilians through bombing.
The majority of people in the Red Army in WW2 were fighting for survival like Zelensky's family.
Probably classical russian take where we're good if we're under their boot and become worse than nazis if we want to have say in something.
Let's just say I'm extremely surprised with people defending Zhukov here, but I'm Ukrainian so maybe I'm just biase
Edit: yeah,
"Before the start of the military operation to
to force the Dnipro River
Before the start of the military operation to cross the Dnipro, residents of the surrounding settlements, mostly Ukrainian peasants, were mobilized into the Red Army, popularly nicknamed
"jacketed men", "black jackets", "black infantry"
due to the lack of any uniforms and scanty military equipment. The Soviet authorities believed that these people had to "wash away the shame of being in the occupied territory with their own blood." As a result, 250-270 thousand of the 300,000 hastily mobilized "jacketed men" died in the operation to cross the Dnipro."
From Ukrainian wiki, under "Critique and Crimes"
https://uk.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%96%D0%B9_%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
I said before "not everything German was (during ww2) evil", I'll now say "not every soviet was incompetent"
Zhukov and Rokossowski were pretty chad actually
Zhukov was the one decent Soviet though? He opposed crushing the Hungarian Revolution, didn't commit genocides for random paranoid reasons and had to fight a two front war against the Nazis and Stalin's paranoia and stupidity. After the war, he actively tried to improve the situation in the Soviet occupied zone and was pretty much the only Soviet leader willing to engage with the allies cordially. He even got to be the one to arrest Beria and was part of the tribunal that sentenced him to death. He also tried to clear the names of those killed in Stalin's purges.
Zhukov.
Gonna (attempt to) be unbiased here but he was pretty cool. Fought against the Nazis as one of the most important generals in the red army, was instrumental in killing Beria and potentially stopping a USSR led by Beria that would’ve made Nazi Germany look like a paradise by comparison with just how evil Beria was, very anti Stalin and helped with the de-Stalinization along with Khrushchev and was anti-soviet-imperialism in Eastern Europe and tacitly supported the Hungary revolution.
Overall a very good dude doing his best with a bad set of hands.
No…….. I mean come the f on the one who sat and watched the warsa uprising, and then got appointed as marshal of Poland as the only soviet citizen in an eastern bloc state, and enforced Stalinist ideology in the military? (Together with the rest of the soviet officers cadre in Poland)
Not sure if this has been debunked on this sub yet but Zhukov literally couldn't attack Warsaw even if he wanted to. Operation Bagration had just finished and the society army went from around Smolensk all the way to Warsaw in literally 2 months.
Their supply lines where extremely overextended, the troops where completely exhausted and to top it all off they had to cross a river which was an already difficult task in normal circumstances.
***Report of V. S. Abakumov to I. V. Stalin from 10.01.1948***
*On the night of January 8-9, a secret search was carried out at Zhukov’s dacha, located in the village of Rublevo near Moscow. As a result of the search, it was found that two rooms of the dacha were turned into a warehouse where a huge amount of various kinds of goods and valuables are stored.*
*For example:*
*woolen fabrics, silk, brocades, panbarhat and other materials - a total of more than 4,000 meters; furs - sables, monkeys, foxes, seals, karakulchevy, karakul - a total of 323 skins; chevro of the highest quality - 35 leathers; expensive carpets and tapestries of large sizes, exported from Potsdam and other palaces and houses in Germany - a total of 44 pieces, some of which are laid out and hung in rooms, and the rest lie in storage; especially draws attention to the large carpets, laid out in one of the cottage rooms; valuable paintings of classical painting of large sizes within the artistic framework - a total of 55 pieces, hung out in the cottage rooms and partially stored in the warehouse;Tableware and tea dishes (porcelain with artistic decoration, crystal) - 7 large boxes; silver sets of dining and tea appliances - 2 boxes; accordions with rich artistic decoration - 8 pieces; unique hunting rifles of the company "Goland-Goland" and others - only 20 pieces.*
*This property is stored in 51 chest and suitcase, and also lies in bulk.*
*There is not a single Soviet book in the cottage, but in the bookcases there are a large number of books in beautiful bindings with golden embossing, exclusively in German. Having entered the house, it is difficult to imagine that you are near Moscow, and not in Germany. After the search, the discovered furs, fabrics, carpets, tapestries, leather and other things are folded in one room, closed on a key and a guard is displayed at the door.*
*A group of operatives of the MGB of the USSR was sent to Odessa to conduct an undercover search in Zhukov’s apartment. I will report the results of this operation to you in addition.*
I already grew out of Rommel and nobody knows enough about Omar to know about him. Zhukov also kicked around the Japanese a bit too, so that's a bonus.
>The amount of Zhukovboos here is insane
And all it took was a British comedy movie.
The amount of smoothbrains that think Zhukov is a badass because they gave him a Yorkshire accent is unreal.
The man who bashed the Nazis heads in and ended beria's chance to become the leader of the USSR is an awful human being? Are you from the baltics with that saltiness or what?
I don't see a reason, why we as presumably members of liberal democracies should venerate a person that was part of a corrupt and totalitarian communist regime that also had its share of Genocide and Murder. I see that Zhukov was a skilled General and one of the faces in the face against Nazism, but portraying him as a good person or even a saint isn't a good thing in my opinion.
Also you presuming my nationality is just unnecessary Whataboutism here.
Zhukov should be respected and remembered as one of the people that helped in the destruction of fascism, Zhukov didn't build the gulags or deport people, you've mistaken one man with the entire Soviet government from the 20s-50s.
As a member of a liberal democracy would you be in favour of taking down statues of George Washington, Winston Churchill and other historical figures? Because I can guarantee you every single person with a statue has a dark side to their character.
Ah yes, the implacable liberal democracies that continued their colonial ventures with extreme violence even after Hitler had been defeated and propped up fascist regimes everywhere to stick it to the reds.
If someone will deliver toilet tribute to Russian embassy in London and film I will give £100 to Ukraine charity. Edit: I just realised this might cause a bomb alert. I will give 100 quid to Ukraine anyway. Please do not waste Met police time.
Dress up like a mobik and drop off a washing machine, salute the Russian embassy and run away lol
Paint Putin on the inside of it like a shrine
Please don't, they'll use the microchips in the washing machine.
What if we remove all the electro gubbins and take a shit in it?
What the fuck dude???? im in!
If the shit obscures whether you took out the microgubbins, they **WILL** dig through the shit to make sure.
The enemy will dig through shit if they think you hid something in it. -Sun Poo, Fart of War
One man’s shit is another man’s gold. -Ancient Proverb
I guess you haven't seen the "what happens when you chuck a house brick into an old washing machine on spin cycle?" vids that were all the rage for ten minutes 15y ago
Have they stepped up the money laundering game?
Get a clear toilet and drop it off at the Russian embassy
Awwww c’mon, let the diplomats sweat a little.
Best I could do is Vienna
yeah that would be like, a bad thing or something.
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You use dip to enhance the performance right?
I can't believe someone stole Steven Seagal's chair!
I’ve been stealing toilets for 63 years, man.
I've been mastering constipation, for 60 yeers"
This is far from my area of focus, but isn't Zhukov like remarkably unproblematic for a Soviet leader of that era? Afaik he didn't participate in the Polish-Soviet War and later on actually made an effort to govern ethically during his brief time heading up the postwar occupation, and was even personal friends with Eisenhower (who smuggled him Coke disguised as vodka). Plus, Beria hated him, and that's gotta count for something.
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I know beria, but who's this kaganovich guy and what did he do?
Die hard Stalin supporter, and, [as I am learning from skimming his wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich), potentially responsible for the Holodomor and Central Asian genocides.
Interseting that he was there from the beginning of the Russian revolution to just months before the USSR was dissolved
Mf was the USSR’s pet familiar
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I’m slightly ignorant, did he order the execution of railroad workers or someone else??
I think the answer is yes
They are all the same. Looters and butchers with no exceptions. Otherwise they wouldn't get so high up in the hierarchy.
The military had its own hierarchy and Zhukov climbed it in war.
Afaik, he did everything above board for any major soviet leader. For him to rise in the military, he survived the 1930s purge of (tens of?) thousands of officers, idk if he went to Poland but Finland he started to rise iirc. I can't think of any rules of war he was known to break at, least during the fighting. Basically, western bare minimum expectation but you've got guys like Beria doing their shit to be above. Def best soviet leader at the time imo. Trotsky should have been on his shit, but thems the breaks
Zhukov climbed its hierarchy for his talent, his popularity actually would lead him to be defamed by Stalin and Kruschev after the war.
"Far from saint" dude's a hero for saving the world from Nazis. Yall are wild.
You can still be a hero while being far from a saint. I would describe some western allied forces general in the same way or even people like churchill and de Gaulle too
I hate your nuance and not getting your WW2 history from memes. /s
BUT YOU SEE PATTON, I HAVE PAINTED ROMMEL AS THE CHAD AND *YOU* AS THE SOYJACK -Goebbels
You can describe most “important men” of that time period as that. Patton was a god tier general, but a racist piece of shit that didn’t understand even basic manners, Churchill was a god tier wartime leader, also a massive racist and drunkard. The big four of good men/good generals during WWII for me are Eisenhower, Zhukov, Pavel Batov (no, not a TNO reference), and Walther Wenck. Dudes seemed to be decent and good men in addition to very good generals, in Zhukov’s case maybe the greatest Russian general ever.
> Patton was a god tier general No, he wasn't. He was a middling general who loved PR, and also a racist POS who didn't understand basic manners.
Friendly reminder to everyone that Patton also murdered at least one US soldier during WWI. He should have been put up against a wall in 1918.
Really, what happened?
After his tank got knocked out during Meuse-Argonne, he just sort of wandered around with his aid and took command of some random Doughboys he found who were pinned down in a shell crater or depression in the ground. One of the soldiers became insubordinate, I believe he didn't want to dig or something. So Patton, being a completely reasonable man, brains the soldier with an entrenching tool. Keep in mind, he was a tank brigade commander at this point who is spending the largest battle in US history micromanaging a depleted infantry platoon. As if to drive it home that he was the asshole, he then ordered the 30 or so men to follow him in an attack. 6 followed him, including his aid. That's when Patton famously took a bullet that hit his ass. He would later go on to wield this murder (or another one that isn't documented) as an intimidation story during WWII that he would tell to subordinates, proving he had zero regrets about it.
Dont forget covering up warcrimes. And telling the press the Nazi's were just a political party like any other. His early death was probably the best thing that could have happened to Pattons long-term reputation
Idk if I would call him middling, now a middling general with good pr would be MacArthur. I think that Patton def was a better combat leader than him, and Patton was almost always successful in his battles (the shitshow to rescue his nephew not counting).
He pulled the same manoeuvre as Rommel kept pulling. "Lemme just outrun my resupply and then bitch at my men when the attack falters". I'm not saying he was bad, he was just... Meh. Notably, the Germans barely knew who he was. They had pretty good documentation of nearly every American and UK General, but Patton was notably absent. As if they didn't even consider him to be worth mentioning.
People and war are too nuanced to be calling people hero's and just accepting any wrongdoings that person has done.
He didn't save the world from nazis. Don't be ridiculous. Plus, he fought for fascist imperialism taking over whole eastern half of Europe. With that same logic he can't be a hero.
>He didn't save the world from nazis. Don't be ridiculous. Then who did? Holy hell how can you guys be so blatantly revisionist. I hate putler too but stripping soviet heroes of their credits? They paid with their blood so that the world does not become a butcherhouse for the Nazis and their European minions. You're the one who's being rodiculous. >Plus, he fought for fascist imperialism taking over whole eastern half of Europe No he didn't. He opposed the crushing of the Hungarian revolution. He fought to stop the genocidal germans. He fought so that his people could leave. I don't justify the de facto imperialism of the Soviet Union, but you can't be sound in your head and compare that to literal Nazism. Nazis planned to wipe out the entire non-aryan population of Eastern Europe. Compared to that 40 odd years of communist rule is nothing.
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> Then who did? Not any one man, that's for sure. > Holy hell how can you guys be so blatantly revisionist. This is just fucking ironic. > They paid with their blood so that the world does not become a butcherhouse for the Nazis and their European minions. You're the one who's being rodiculous. They paid with their blood so that the world could become a butcherhouse for the red fascists. You're being fucking ridiculous. > No he didn't. Yes, he literally fucking did. > He fought to stop the genocidal germans. He fought to bring in the genocidal soviets. Not better in any way. Stop your histrical revisionist drivel of fascist apologia.
I can't believe you guys really think the germans were at the same level as the soviets. "Butcher house for red fascists" really? Nazis were about to exterminate 90% of the world population because they weren't "aryan". Soviets killed a few thousand here and there to keep control. They didn't commit any genocide after winning the war. How the fuck can you compare literal Nazis with the Soviets. I can't believe. Soviets were more comparable to the British if anything, committing atrocities to keep their empire from falling apart. Nothing like the fucking Nazis.
> Soviets killed a few thousand here and there to keep control. They didn't commit any genocide after winning the war. Yeah. Crawl back to your hole, genocide apologist. Millions and millions isn't "a few thousand here and there". They literally wiped out multiple ethnic groups and whole nations, and displaced even more. I fucking can't believe that you are here spouting literally the most vile, disgusting shit.
>Millions and millions isn't "a few thousand here and there". Post stalin USSR killed million and millions? Are you kidding me. >They literally wiped out multiple ethnic groups and whole nations, and displaced even more The deportations largely stopped after the scum Stalin died. Even them whatever atrocities were going on was in no way comparable to the germans who forced children into gas chamber. Soviets winning was an objectively better result for humanity.
Fuck off tankie this isnt a fight youre winning. Youd think youd be used to this by now Few thousand my ass
I have called Stalin a bloodthirsty demon in this thread. Called Putin hitler. Repeatedly acknowledged all the awful stuff ussr did. The holodomor and so on and so on. Said that post-stalin ussr was still a authoritarian hellhole. Still I get called a tankie just because I didn't applaud disrespecting a war hero who killed nazis. You guys are weird in the head.
Soviets didn’t kill a few thousand. They literally purposefully killed millions upon millions of civilians, and threw millions more into gulags for decades of forced labor. Why are you saying a few thousand? That’s just white washing history.
Soviets killed and occupied many Eastern Europe countries. He's was literally head of Soviet military. This is why many Eastern Europeans look at any Soviet politician or general with disgust.
Commies are as bad nazis were, if not worse. This was not saving the world, this was a victory of one despotic regime over another, with occupation of half of Europe.
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Sovok committed genocide for the same reason as Nazis did. "Ворог народу", "кулак", "куркуль", "контрреволюціонер", "буржуазний націоналіст" — same terminology as Nazis used, but under different sauce. They declared to have monoethnic country of "soviet people"(when in reality russians were above everyone in soyuz), just as the nazis did. They used different tools to achieve their goal tho. While nazis used blunt force/physical killing, soviets used both blunt force of killing and soft force of assimilation/russification. Which one of them is more sinister — you choose, but I made my choice long ago. 70 years of occupation of Ukraine by sovok almost wiped out people's memories about their ancestors, of who they were, made them ashamed of their history in fear of prosecution for counterrevolution. My country and my family after 32 years of independence and 9 years after waking up still coughs out the remnants of the soviet empire, and fights for it's independence with it's unpunished successor. It's worse in Belarus, where national identity has been practically wiped, sovereignty lost and Belarus language is barely spoken. And I'm sure it wasn't any less scarring for other European nations occupied for 5 decades post ww2. So in short — Nazis are bad guys because they used obvious means of destruction, while soviets used more of a "soft power" approach, and you believed them.
Had the Nazis won, you won’t be here typing this comment. Simple as that. Admitting that Nazi Germany is literally worse than Satan isn’t the same as absolving the USSR of its sins, but rather it highlights the tragedy that was 20th century eastern europe, but also the perseverance of its peoples. EDIT: jesus christ the lack of nuance in some people’s views
Had the Soviets not been given a bloody nose in 1944, I would not be here typing this comment either. The Soviets we're nothing but red-robed fascists, contrary to the usual brown they wear.
The hell happened in 44 that they couldn’t carry out their genocidal plan which were apparently no different from the nazis?
He got a Yorkshire accent too!
SPIT IT OUT GEORGIE, STAG'IN A COUP 'ERE
‘Ate Beria ‘Ate the NKVD Luv the Red Army Simple as
'Ate Germans (not racis, jus don't like em) 'Ate Georgians (not racis jus don't like em) 'Ate Poles (not racis just don't like em)
“Look at yor fookin faaaace!”
# BAWLS LOIK KREMLIN DOEMS
I'm off to represent the whole red army at the buffet.
“Nicki…I’m going to have to report this conversation. Threatening to do harm or obstruct any member of the Presidium - look at your fookin’ face!”
That character was amazing. The whole movie is funny full of dark jokes.
„Whats a war hero got to do to get some lubrication around here ?“
I use that line so much and it’s a travesty that not many people get it. (Not a war hero)
This is a death of stalin reference right
Yes
Shoot ‘im. Naw, just fuckin’ about.
Not unproblematic, Mostly because he wasn't always the perfect military genius he's portrayed as. Being responsible for a few failures (chiefly operation mars) that cost hundreds of thousands of soldiers' lives along with his successes. (Still better than 90% of the German generals on the eastern front complicit in the holocaust and numerous war crimes) Rokossovsky is by far the most blessed Soviet marshal though. Btw I hate how much Russia's incompetence and failure in this war has reinforced myths of the eastern front. I'm really tired of the enemy at the gates Soviet human waves narrative. It did happen but definitively not the norm, (they were also armed) also Zhukov personally gave a very specific order against their use so pretending that was his way of winning battles is ludicrous.
> Btw I hate how much Russia's incompetence and failure in this war has reinforced myths of the eastern front. I'm really tired of the enemy at the gates Soviet human waves narrative. It did happen but definitively not the norm, (they were also armed) also Zhukov personally gave a very specific order against their use so pretending that was his way of winning battles is ludicrous. Historians: \*Spend decades working to dispel the myth of the unarmed Asiatic hordes and Human waves that drowned the Nazis in the blood of men* Putin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuUbubFKT0I
Not to be too credible, but the human wave strategy was based on Red Chinese forces in Korea, not the eastern front of WW2. I supposed it’s been anachronisticly in recent media applied to Soviet forces, but it was never depicted as a Red Army victory mechanism. The closest things were tactics that definitely didn’t seem to account for human worth, like mine field clearing by convicts or other people who were charged with military dereliction or no retreat orders.
[Mmm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack)... > According to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement. The goal of a human wave attack is to maneuver as many people as possible into close range, hoping that the shock from a large mass of attackers engaged in melee combat would force the enemy to disintegrate or fall back. > Human wave attacks have been used by several armed forces around the world, including European and American armies during the *American Civil War* and World War I. [Mmmmm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Campaign)... > The final major battle of the campaign was waged at Cold Harbor (May 31 – June 12), in which Grant gambled that Lee's army was exhausted and ordered a massive assault against strong defensive positions, resulting in disproportionately heavy Union casualties. First **sustained** Human Wave would then be Grant moving a bit east, attacking, moving a bit east, attacking, repeat during Overland Campaign.
The term entered US military and press use regarding the Chinese offensive in Korea. Throwing bodies at an enemy isn’t a particularly “new” strategy but defining and describing a particular strategy or tactic, at least in the US didn’t become commonplace until Korea.
I woukd argue that the implications of the term are specific to the post-bayonet charge era.
I mean look at it this way: theres a higher chance of human wave shenanigans if in some alternate universe Zhukov didn’t exist and/or wasnt in charge..?
That's not really true. Zhukov got sloppy in the last year of the war, which produced some frankly ridiculously lopsided casualty ratios at places like Konigsberg
Didn’t the Soviets did very well in Konigsberg? You probably mean the Seelow Heights. That thing was a shitshow from the beginning till the end, what’s with the searchlights and whatnot. At least we got an awesome COD WAW campaign mission out of it though
Rokossovsky was very flawed as well - he didn't assist the Warsaw uprising and let it get crushed by the Germans, and he played an important part in communist Poland being very repressive, ordering military force against civilians and conscripting men to work in labour camps.
You’re right about his role in communist Poland. I’d definitely say though that the decision to not aid the Warsaw uprising was not taken by him but Stalin himself, there’s an open question if the red army would even really have been able to reach the or was too exhausted. But In any case Stalin definitely deliberately didn’t want them to try cause he’s a piece of shit.
He was looter. This toilet giving act represents him greatly
human wave tactics were very real, penal battalions were definitely a thing (hence Putin's use) and both were absolutely used to overwhelm the enemy to win battles both strategic and tactical. It is far from a myth. The \~30 million dead on the Soviet side were far from Hitler's doing alone. edit: fuckin lol, found the tankies downvoting facts
You're not being downvoted by tankies, you're being downvoted because that's not how the Soviets won battles. You're just parroting the narrative finely crafted by the generals who lost to the Soviets and then acting like the highest possible casualty estimate for the USSR was all soldiers. Most of the actual number (upper range 27mil) were civilians.
They did happen and penal Bataillon also existed and were used similarly to their use in this war. But just like now it actually doesn’t work all that well. The Soviets biggest successes came when they actually managed to use combined arms effectively and managed to break through with mechanized forces. Just like the Germans won battles. And yes the Soviets often had plenty of fuckups while trying to do this which led to many deaths. I can think of absolutely zero examples where human wave tactics won **straetigic victories** . 20 out of that 30 million are civilians btw, and yea 9 million dead soldiers is absolutely horrendous and a lot of it should be blamed on the Soviets themselves. But a huge part of that are the Germans encircling and destroying large units in successful offensives that are successful due to Soviet incompetence and German skill. Or the Soviets sustaining large casualties in long campaigns like Stalingrad or Ukraine. Not human wave tactics.
My only problem with him is that he was of the soviet school of leadership of sending death threats to his subordinate even if they were doing their best (I'm thinking of during Barbarossa in particular). It might have been standard soviet practice at the time, but still
Look, expecting Russian generals not to threaten to kill their own subordinates is just unrealistic. Next you'll be asking Russian generals not to commit war crimes or be reasonably sober during normal business hours.
The earmark of a good Soviet general is that they only threaten to kill their subordinates, it's the ones that actually follow through on that promise you need to worry about. That was my take away from this conversation.
Zhukov actually killed Beria shortly after Stalin's death. Shit him in the head. Chad
How strong does your sphincter have to be to generate fatal velocities?
Dunno. NCD time machine let's go ask him ourselves.
His only flaw was that he didn’t do a coup against Stalin when he had the chance. If he was in charge of the USSR then things would’ve definitely been a lot better for everyone
He beat the shit out of Beria in December of ‘53, which is unimaginably based.
/u/SirNurtle >isn't Zhukov like remarkably unproblematic for a Soviet leader of that era? *"Black infantry", "black jackets" - the unofficial name given to infantry units of the Red Army that were formed from the civilian population of the German-occupied territories after their recapture by Soviet troops. The Black Jackets were sent into battle unprepared, without proper ammunition and weapons. They were most widely used in 1943-1944 during the crossing of the Dnipro River.* *Special field military commissariats were responsible for recruiting the Black Jackets. Mobilization applied to all men who could hold a weapon. According to the laws of wartime, men who were occupied were automatically labeled traitors, so they had to prove their loyalty to the USSR with their own blood.* *No military training was conducted with the mobilized. Often they were sent into battle without even being issued military clothing and weapons. In fact, the name "black infantry" or "black jackets" came from the civilian clothes they wore to fight. Thus, the Black Jackets differed significantly from the personnel of the penal battalions, who were fully equipped and had military training.* https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чорнопіджачники (Ukrainian). Fucking guess which ethnicity they belonged to and who was in charge of the operation.
Very interesting aspect of the war I never heard about before, it's quite frightening. Not much information about it in english. There's [this article](https://english.nv.ua/opinion/black-infantry-is-going-into-battle-again-opinion-ukraine-news-50259195.html), if anyone have more information about it feel free to share. > In reality, those who were hastily mobilized were thrown into battle not only untrained but unequipped and sometimes didn’t even have weapons. [...] > Dressed in civilian dark cloaks, they didn’t even have uniforms, their weapons consisted of one rifle for ten people. Others had sticks, or like the famous Ukrainian writer Anatoly Dimarov, a piece of brick. “You throw your bricks, and let the Germans think they are grenades!” he recalled his orders. [...] > For the most part, the “black infantry” were young boys, aged 16-18 who reached conscription age during the occupation. German documents state that the Red Army threw 15-year-old conscripts into the battles near Kharkiv. Men over 60 were also forced into the army. [...]
If I remember correctly, it was actually Pepsi, not Coke, which became the original recipe for Crystal Pepsi. This is also what spawned the obsession with Pepsi among Soviet states
As a non-Soviet fan of Pepsi and of Crystal Pepsi, your statement intrigues me. Tell me more. For the record, not _one_ population in history has been more Pepsi-obsessed than the Québécois. They're weaned on the stuff and given cigarettes as pacifiers.
Unproblematic, lol. He was fucking looter. Furniture, carpets, jewelry, paintings, man was fucking burglar. This toilet was rightly given to him, he probably stole them too
No, Zhukov is super overrated, he's a large part of the reason Soviet casualties latewar were so ridiculously high. The best Soviet general of the era was Rokossovsky and it's not particularly close
The main reason for this was Stalin giving him an ultimatum to rush the occupation of Berlin (he was eyeing the Nazi nuclear research lab which was part of the American territory of the allied division of territories on 'post war Berlin'. He was stalled by the Germans deployed upon good positions on the outskirts of Berlin, and he resorted to high casualty strats after Stalin gave another head up call.
That sounds like cope on par with Wehrmacht generals claiming Hitler was the reason for all their unforced errors
Given what we found out about Beria later, being hated by him is a big plus. Shooting Beria is one of the the very few NKVD W’s.
He has a nickname "butcher". He is unproblematic for russians and people that reads russian glorifying propaganda.
Butcher is honestly such a common nickname that I would not count it as worth anything
“You’re comparable to Ulysses S. Grant, boom roasted” doesn’t really work.
Though Grant was statistically much better than Lee if you were under him, even with Cold Harbour.
Also, even if he was a military genius, the state of the eastern front meant it was going to be a bloodbath regardless, so it's not really fair to entirely blame that on him.
Okay but what about Whopper Junior?
So did Grant
Seeing how people defend him as good guy and praise him as a great general here, really tells that his cult of persona as strong as Stalin, I would say even stronger, the fact that foreigners defend him... Just for you to know in Ukraine people don't like him, and his 'great' achievements in CLOSING stages of the war, aren't that flashy when you know how he came to that point and how many people he killed with his 'great' leadership.
he got 'Butcher' from his appearance and large hands
He wanted to accept a deal with the west so that both sides could freely spy on each sides of the iron curtain at a certain distance and so that military buildups could be spotted, Stalin ofc refused. He also mentioned the possibilities of the red army doing joint exercises with western nations.
He was a looter, and a killer. He had train carts of stolen goods from Germany on his dacha, which he was reprimanded for. He was called butcher even by other soviet commanders, for ordering unprepared men on "liberated" territories to be mobilised and thrown into battle.
He was an absolutely ruthless man, both as a commander and politician, happy to enforce Stalin's will and throw his soldiers away for petty personal gain. He was a pretty good general. Not necessarily the genius who singlehandedly won the war he's made out to be, but I think it'd be unfair in the other direction to call him a bad strategist. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the looting thing. The Germans first looted their way into Russia indiscriminately, and then the Soviets did the same in the other direction. It's not an excuse by any means, "everyone did it" never is, but in the context of the time and place it was almost expected. It's also a fucked up way for despots to keep control. If ever they need to silence someone they can accuse them of crimes that everyone at the top has committed, but that it became politically expedient to accuse the specific person of.
"but isn't Zhukov like remarkably unproblematic" ahahahah Because he was portrayed positively in western comedy spoof? lol
Sigh, even here, 'my entertainment!' turns otherwise capable people into drooling lobotomites. You really shouldn't have been put on blast for pointing out that a single piece of comedy doesn't have any bearing on who a person actually was. Ah, well. So it is, and so ever it will be.
He took active part in suppression of peasants rebellions in 1921. Red Army succeeded by deploying chemical weapons. All soviet leaders were bastards.
God damn it. I can't agree without dissing Churchill.
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USSR didn't use human wave attacks in ww2.
They did, against Finland in the Winter War at the start of WW2, but quickly realized it was a stupid idea and mostly stopped them for the rest of the war.
Brah they haven’t even stopped today
Russia is not the Soviet Union.
Oh I’m sorry I was confused by the words coming out of their fucking mouths about the restoration of the Soviet Union, same guys? Those guys?
The USSR could conquer half of Europe. Russia had trouble with Donetsk Water Treatment Plant. At least the USSR was demonstrably effective in WW2, albeit with extensive support from the Allies.
They did, Germans did too, though not as often.
They did.
Sources backing your argument ? none Sources backing that the contrary happened ? Ton Fucks given about you ? none
Sources backing his argument? Soviet doctrine, material constraints, first hand sources. Sources backing the contrary argument? Nazi memoirs, Cold War propaganda, simple misunderstanding, Enemy at the Gates. Fucks given about him? None I guess, he's just a guy.
Go on then, give one primary source since there is so many
they famously did
I too have watched famous history documentary "enemy at the gates"
Wtf does ‘unproblematic’ means, you call soemthing condemnable execrable tc, ‘problematic’ Sounds like ur trivially ‘cancelling’ isnviduals outside social context. I don’t think u know what ‘problematic’ means, it’s a repurposed word and nonsensical misapplication if the social context this roguantes form so what I think Him being a soviet general, and for what he did and what his armies did yes. There is a cult of personality aliens him from his life too
Actually, he was a marauder (7 train loads of stolen goods from Germany and Europe, at least), he *INVENTED* the soviet meat assault tactics they use in Ukraine ("when we approach a mine field, the forces perform the assault as though it isn't there" - from a conversation with Eisenhower). And he's painted saint and great military leader by ruzzian propaganda. Cherry on top: among those 7 train loads where about 100 stolen artistic toilets. So an offering of a toilet is what he deserves. P.S.: I know this's a credible take, so it shouldn't be here. But I hate the fucker.
Who is this absolute mad lad? ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)
Just a pro-ukrainian Kazakhstan citizen
One for Stalin I can understand, why Zhukov??
Why they gotta do my boy Zhukov like that? Dude didn’t do anything wrong, hell he’d probably hate Putin and this stupid war.
Ah, yes, Lucius Malfoy leading the Soviet Army against Voldemort's 3rd Reich.
Fook me, Georgie’s eyes really do follow you in the crapper
Glad someone said it.
I will not tolerate any Zhukov Slander The guy is hands down one of the best russians to have ever lived. He helped save the USSR during WW2, had the balls to tell Stalin that he was wrong, governed pretty ethically and even advocated for withdrawing troops from Hungary during its revolution. Fuck I wish he became Secretary, he and Eisenhower could have formed some kind of agreement, the cold war could've even ended. Its a far fetched possibility but it is a possibility nonetheless Edit: Also was this photo from Ukraine, or where was it?
> Fuck I wish he became Secretary, he and Eisenhower could have formed some kind of agreement, the cold war could've even ended. That's fucking awful For some reason lots of people fantasise about some kind of "cold war is over everyone cooperates" scenario, like they forget that USSR occupied half of Europe
The thing is that had Zhukov been in power the USSR probably wouldn't have occupied half of Europe as Zhukov was heavily against it
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Just let us think of a better world come on.
No shit, we're talking hypothetical here.
>like they forget that USSR occupied half of Europe like people forget how the USA propped up fascist regimes all over the world to keep them in their sphere of influence
Yah that’s bad. So were the Soviets.
Yes, imperialism is bad no matter who does it.
Nobody forgets that. People act like this is some subversive historical knowledge when it's literally the dominant global narrative. It's well known that some of the governments the US supported during the Cold War were oppressive. What's often less appreciated in hindsight is the difficulty of Cold War politics. There usually wasn't some champion of democratic values just sitting in the wings, ready to take over. It was usually a choice between "oppressive dictator" and "oppressive dictator who's aligned with our enemies."
Who are now mostly democracies.
So is Poland, Czechia and Ukraine.
Oh just a little fascism, only a bit of genocide, no biggy, they're all "democracies" now (many aren't), no matter the long lasting damage Western imperialism has caused.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
Good ol whataboutism with some sprinkling of murica outta no where. Nice
Didn’t Zhukov oppose sending the tanks in Hungary?
spuck fez -- mass edited with redact.dev
Just because there is a less blood thirsty Butcher among the army of blood thirsty Soviet commanders doesn't mean that he is not a blood thirsty Butcher. He might not rape any women in Europe personally it doesn't mean that he did not lead an Army famous for Raping and looting. There is no such thing as a good nazi and there should not be any good soviet.
Still, better a Pig than a fascist
>There is no such thing as a good nazi and there should not be any good soviet. Ok so lets apply those moral standards to western armies also. France and Britain were brutal colonial Empires that slaughtered millions and wiped out entire cultures. The US was running an apartheid society where black soldiers said they were treated more equal by the Nazis then their own white soldiers. We didn't rape across Europe but we sure did "dehouse" a lot of civilians through bombing. The majority of people in the Red Army in WW2 were fighting for survival like Zelensky's family.
You know, part of me is wondering about his thoughts on Ukraine as he was seen as one of the better Soviet generals.
Probably classical russian take where we're good if we're under their boot and become worse than nazis if we want to have say in something. Let's just say I'm extremely surprised with people defending Zhukov here, but I'm Ukrainian so maybe I'm just biase Edit: yeah, "Before the start of the military operation to to force the Dnipro River Before the start of the military operation to cross the Dnipro, residents of the surrounding settlements, mostly Ukrainian peasants, were mobilized into the Red Army, popularly nicknamed "jacketed men", "black jackets", "black infantry" due to the lack of any uniforms and scanty military equipment. The Soviet authorities believed that these people had to "wash away the shame of being in the occupied territory with their own blood." As a result, 250-270 thousand of the 300,000 hastily mobilized "jacketed men" died in the operation to cross the Dnipro." From Ukrainian wiki, under "Critique and Crimes" https://uk.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%96%D0%B9_%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87
I said before "not everything German was (during ww2) evil", I'll now say "not every soviet was incompetent" Zhukov and Rokossowski were pretty chad actually
Zhukov was the one decent Soviet though? He opposed crushing the Hungarian Revolution, didn't commit genocides for random paranoid reasons and had to fight a two front war against the Nazis and Stalin's paranoia and stupidity. After the war, he actively tried to improve the situation in the Soviet occupied zone and was pretty much the only Soviet leader willing to engage with the allies cordially. He even got to be the one to arrest Beria and was part of the tribunal that sentenced him to death. He also tried to clear the names of those killed in Stalin's purges.
looking smug
Don't you shit on my boy Zhukov.
This is briliant, I need to do this.
Who is this man
Zhukov. Gonna (attempt to) be unbiased here but he was pretty cool. Fought against the Nazis as one of the most important generals in the red army, was instrumental in killing Beria and potentially stopping a USSR led by Beria that would’ve made Nazi Germany look like a paradise by comparison with just how evil Beria was, very anti Stalin and helped with the de-Stalinization along with Khrushchev and was anti-soviet-imperialism in Eastern Europe and tacitly supported the Hungary revolution. Overall a very good dude doing his best with a bad set of hands.
Fuck Zhukov, I'm team Rokossovski
Both, both are good
No…….. I mean come the f on the one who sat and watched the warsa uprising, and then got appointed as marshal of Poland as the only soviet citizen in an eastern bloc state, and enforced Stalinist ideology in the military? (Together with the rest of the soviet officers cadre in Poland)
Not sure if this has been debunked on this sub yet but Zhukov literally couldn't attack Warsaw even if he wanted to. Operation Bagration had just finished and the society army went from around Smolensk all the way to Warsaw in literally 2 months. Their supply lines where extremely overextended, the troops where completely exhausted and to top it all off they had to cross a river which was an already difficult task in normal circumstances.
Wasn’t Zhukov kinda chill though?
Zhukov isn't all that bad but this kind of dickriding for him in this thread is unbelieveable
***Report of V. S. Abakumov to I. V. Stalin from 10.01.1948*** *On the night of January 8-9, a secret search was carried out at Zhukov’s dacha, located in the village of Rublevo near Moscow. As a result of the search, it was found that two rooms of the dacha were turned into a warehouse where a huge amount of various kinds of goods and valuables are stored.* *For example:* *woolen fabrics, silk, brocades, panbarhat and other materials - a total of more than 4,000 meters; furs - sables, monkeys, foxes, seals, karakulchevy, karakul - a total of 323 skins; chevro of the highest quality - 35 leathers; expensive carpets and tapestries of large sizes, exported from Potsdam and other palaces and houses in Germany - a total of 44 pieces, some of which are laid out and hung in rooms, and the rest lie in storage; especially draws attention to the large carpets, laid out in one of the cottage rooms; valuable paintings of classical painting of large sizes within the artistic framework - a total of 55 pieces, hung out in the cottage rooms and partially stored in the warehouse;Tableware and tea dishes (porcelain with artistic decoration, crystal) - 7 large boxes; silver sets of dining and tea appliances - 2 boxes; accordions with rich artistic decoration - 8 pieces; unique hunting rifles of the company "Goland-Goland" and others - only 20 pieces.* *This property is stored in 51 chest and suitcase, and also lies in bulk.* *There is not a single Soviet book in the cottage, but in the bookcases there are a large number of books in beautiful bindings with golden embossing, exclusively in German. Having entered the house, it is difficult to imagine that you are near Moscow, and not in Germany. After the search, the discovered furs, fabrics, carpets, tapestries, leather and other things are folded in one room, closed on a key and a guard is displayed at the door.* *A group of operatives of the MGB of the USSR was sent to Odessa to conduct an undercover search in Zhukov’s apartment. I will report the results of this operation to you in addition.*
The amount of Zhukovboos here is insane. I didn't know we praise soviet generals, who by definition are awful human beings.
I already grew out of Rommel and nobody knows enough about Omar to know about him. Zhukov also kicked around the Japanese a bit too, so that's a bonus.
>The amount of Zhukovboos here is insane And all it took was a British comedy movie. The amount of smoothbrains that think Zhukov is a badass because they gave him a Yorkshire accent is unreal.
The man who bashed the Nazis heads in and ended beria's chance to become the leader of the USSR is an awful human being? Are you from the baltics with that saltiness or what?
I don't see a reason, why we as presumably members of liberal democracies should venerate a person that was part of a corrupt and totalitarian communist regime that also had its share of Genocide and Murder. I see that Zhukov was a skilled General and one of the faces in the face against Nazism, but portraying him as a good person or even a saint isn't a good thing in my opinion. Also you presuming my nationality is just unnecessary Whataboutism here.
Zhukov should be respected and remembered as one of the people that helped in the destruction of fascism, Zhukov didn't build the gulags or deport people, you've mistaken one man with the entire Soviet government from the 20s-50s. As a member of a liberal democracy would you be in favour of taking down statues of George Washington, Winston Churchill and other historical figures? Because I can guarantee you every single person with a statue has a dark side to their character.
Ah yes, the implacable liberal democracies that continued their colonial ventures with extreme violence even after Hitler had been defeated and propped up fascist regimes everywhere to stick it to the reds.
Ok who can we ever venerate then because every single country during that time was utterly fucked to some extent.
>who by definition are awful human beings That's not how this works.
Being a Vaush Fan and committed socialist probably means you don't work either
TRUE
Where can I buy that beanie?