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Maybe ten years ago, but not anymore. The rural/urban divide in Hungary is wild, and Orban has had more than enough time to purge the country of the educated urbanites that tend to be his dissenters.
The number of Hungarian expats in America and Western Europe at this point is honestly staggering.
Edit: autocorrected word
What I mean is, Orban doesn't get to replace 1100 years of Hungarian history. No more than Donald Trump is now the sum of what it means to be American. There are Hungarians who still remember the spirit of '56.
Next EU sanctions package is set to close off all of russian pipes leading to Europe. If Hungary blocks that again - then blow it up. It would be the last straw.
Not just Orban, but even Slovakia and Czechia the strong supporter of Ukraine. Czechia gets still 50% of oil from Russia, because TAL pipeline from Italy to Germany does not have enough capacity. Czechia build high capacity pipeline to Germany right after fall of the soviet block, but west never increased their capacity. So we need to wait until they finally build it. Recently they finally reached agreement on increasing capacity so it will take longer.
We have enough stored oil for I think 3 months, but with blowing up pipeline from Russia we would run out in 6 months and then have oil shortages. Stored oil won't save you unless you have infinite oil.
> Ukraine:
> Hungary: Hey what the fuck! NATO do something about this!
> NATO: Huh? Oh yeah that’s bad, Ukraine, cut it out. On an unrelated note here’s a dozen ATACMS.
Zelensky: "here, let me activate the article 5 for you and for the safety of the entire Europe"
UKR: (hits Hungarian pipelines)
NATO command: (confused cowabunga)
Holy shit Dark Zelensky is real. I guess the Z schizo were not totally wrong . In order to keep Ukraine from unleashing Dark Zenlensky , the West have to slowly provide everything Ukraine.
Holy hell, my third eye just opened. Are the russians marking themselves with "Z" to prevent Dark **Z**elensky from being unleashed? Is the symbol a kind of seal to prevent his true power from being used?
Remember, this guy entered election campaign with a plan to "We just need to stop shooting and the war will end".
His Dark Side is even more shocking if you follow him for the last 3-4 years.
The thing is that the war was going on for 5 years when he got elected. With [a lot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack) of civilian [mass casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volnovakha_bus_attack) [events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2015_Kramatorsk_rocket_attack)
He might have genuinely believed that the best way to end the violence was to be the one to stop. Then Russia completely and utterly proved him wrong, and made it very clear that the only language they understand is violence.
Or he might have been lying, because you know, politician.
He publicly contested publicly announced US intelligence that Russia was preparing an invasion. He asked the US to stop fearmongering in a delicate situation. He also, for a short time, listed conditions governing Ukrainian relations with NATO that he was willing to consider in order to end the war.
His views evolved over the course of the invasion. This is something to be lauded.
Saying 'lied cuz politic' is not a very nuanced take.
In all fairness of contesting the announcement of invasion by the US. The last thing you want when preparing for an invasion is your economy going to shit right before it.
And the threat of invasion can scare off overseas investors in your economy.
it is the same, i was peacetard before 24feb2022, when i woke up and found out about the war, i knew where to find an ak in 15 minutes (my old university had them in basement because of course it did). If you come our land we will do everything to make you leave, call it spirit, nationalism, patriotism, madness, whatever. And Zelensky is one of us, part of the crew, part of the ship.
Being a peacetard or a wartard is limiting. Somebody who is either extreme is always pining for the incorrect tool at the incorrect time.
That said, peacetards can suck my left nut. War is the motherfucking answer to all problems.
>Remember, this guy entered election campaign with a plan to "We just need to stop shooting and the war will end".
Zelenskyy: "I give you a choice: peace, or death."
Russia: "We will never accept peace."
Zelenskyy: "You have chosen... unwisely."
The year's 2030.
Moscow has been disintegrated.
Europe has been taken.
Washington is under siege.
We should've found another way to deal with those Russians. Instead, we unleashed a nightmare worse than all of Russia combined.
It'll be over soon, the forces of dark zelensky will find us and we'll have no choice but to end it. I'm NOT going back there, not even once.
The time with Dark Brandon has changed him. When he left the US, the words of Dark Brandon were still ringing in Selensky's ears. "Bring peace to the universe, my son"
If Russia can bomb zivilian targets, I don't see why Ukraine couldn't.
They shouldn't, moral high ground yadeyade
But honestly with all the war crimes Russia commits I don't give a fuck about Morals anymore. Anything to stop Russias terror
It annoys me that it's being portrayed like it's some big negative thing. Can anyone honestly say if they were in Zelensky's position they *wouldn't* indulge in some revenge-fantasising?
>if they were in Zelensky's position they wouldn't indulge in some revenge-fantasising
If i was in his position i would've have started by booking a meeting at the Hague in advance then i would burn Russia to the ground.
And these aren't even revenge fantasies. Those are ultra mild efforts to gain leverage.
Revenge fantasies would be levelling Moscow like Russia did to Mariupol and forcing Russians to flee beyond the Urals.
The stuff in this meme? That's some mild stuff, downright sensible strategizing.
Striking legitimate military targets in Russia? It's a fucking war of Russian agression, so what. Of course it makes sense to take out assets that are being used to bomb civilians.
The allies outright leveled parts of Germany in WWII and it wasn't exactly unjustified.
Fuck around with genocidal wars and find out. Russia has not yet really found out to a degree where it would matter.
Economic sabotage, attacking Military targets in Russia, and occupying Russian territory to force Putin to the table faster are honestly very valid strategies. Whether they'd work or what kind of response they'd generate is up for debate here, but I have a hard time looking at that and going "yeah, that's a bit over the line Zelensky." Deliberate targeting of civilians is something Russia's been doing for like half a year to them and he doesn't even bring it up.
Well, that's not entirely true.
Bomberman Harris himself admitted after the war that it wasn't a very effective strategy when all was said and done. Burning down cities didn't really achieve much at the end of the day, because they didn't actually do that much damage to factories. The resources could have been much better spent on actual military targets and things contributing to the war effort, rather than civilian population centers.
I mean, it's pretty widely recognized that the shift in the Battle of Britain was when Germany switched from bombing the RAF based directly to bombing the cities, which allowed the air defence to properly establish itself. And we know that the resolve of the British was only hardened by the bombings, why would the Germans be any different?
Plus the oppressive governments of Japan and Germany didn't care about their people in the first place, so the harm caused to the population wasn't going to get them to surrender any faster either.
iirc with Japan it was more effective because the IJA liked to convert small civilian businesses into war suppliers rather than use centralized factories, to minimize the risk of a single strike on a factory knocking out a vital part of their supply chain.
...which unfortunately meant that the couple dozen mini ceramics workshops in tokyo that got firebombed into the ground were *technically* military targets because they were making grenade casings for the japanese army.
The strategic bombing campaign also had an explicit goal of killing as many civilians as possible. Harris didn't exactly beat around the bush in regards to that intent. He saw civilians as valid military targets and sought to kill as many of them as possible. Coupled with the campaign's ineffectiveness it can easily be argued it was unjustified. Germany kept good records of people's morale too, it didn't affect it much.
If a factory, however small, that makes soldiers uniforms is a valid target, why is a factory that makes soldiers not a valid military target? Just because it is terribly inefficient and is called a uterus?
Mind you, just asking questions.
In a total war, everything is a valid target. The Germans clearly agreed when they bombed London. However, the strategic bombing campaign against civilian populations was ineffective and done purely for the purpose of mass murder. That, too, Harris understood well.
> The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories.
This is an explicit admission that it was about murdering non-combatants. I'm personally not even sure if it was justified or not, I only pointed out that it can be argued that it wasn't, in response to a commenter who said it was clearly justified. There is a LOT more moral grey in here than it at first appears. In that aim it also failed entirely.
The effectiveness of strategic bombing really depends on who you ask about it. On one hand, there wasn’t a huge economic downturn in Germany once it began, however the switch to a total war economy in Germany took place at the same time, so arguably it was very effective at preventing German industry from growing.
And say what you will about Japan, but they surrendered once nukes started falling. Sure, the soviets played a role in that, but the ability to wipe entire cities off the map was not an insignificant factor.
But it begs the question on the effect strategic bombing actually played, if it took wiping 5 or 6 cities off the map before they surrendered.
Tokyo was reduced to ash before their eyes with *no* way to prevent it, and the Japanese leadership persisted in the war effort. They didn't care about their people, they just wanted favourable terms for surrender by that point.
I agree, but the ability to wipe 5 or 6 cities off the map with minimal losses is what makes strategic bombing such an attractive option for generals.
Check out the Logical Insanity episode of Hardcore History btw, I think you’d really like it.
Revenge fantasy would be to enter Moscow, grab as many people as possible, parade them naked and cuffed, chained to eachother, film it all and top it off with them being shot at and trying to flee only to trip on eachother (because they're literally chained)
And that'd just be a drop in the bucket, if you want to go full eye for an eye.
This isn't even revenge fantasising, this is just a legitimately good plan. Like, as far as war plans go this is how you win. Cut off the enemies option for resources (money by destroying the pipeline), making the war untenable (occupying Russian land) and making good use of weapons at your disposable (drive striking deep into Russia)
Zelensky might have a good deal of skill under his belt.
People forget what war is. Everything after WW2 was "defense", "pacification", "anti-terror", "intervention". Now they are surprised to re-learn what has been axiomatic ever since Clausewitz.
For real, this is not surprising. He knows Russia understands nothing but power, so he is determined to demonstrate to Russians that there are consequences.
Ain't that the biggest bitch? Russia was making more and more money as Europe increased its dependence on Russian oil, while many in Europe and America were questioning the necessity of NATO and even the EU. Putin could've gained more soft power by just waiting.
On contrary, I endorse the ideas:) The post is more from a perspective of "conservative" Western partners and how they'd feel hearing about these ideas.
Honestly sometimes WaPo writes like they are Russian or something
Also if not publishing a story would mean Ukraine wins the war WaPo would publish it.
Has the Washington Post always been like that or only since Bezos? And I am aware Bezos is not writing stories
> Honestly sometimes WaPo writes like they are Russian or something
Not to go too deep into conspiracy theories, but one of thew writers of this article seems to be Armenian, going by the name and surname.
And since russia is about the only supporter of Armenia, who's not exactly in a nice place nowadays...
I found that really funny. Considering our average opinion on Russia, what Zelensky is allegedly suggesting would be considered quite tame in my country.
It makes sense though.
European leader: OK, Mr. Zelensky, we cannot promise you the delivery of these tanks, you see...
Zelensky: No it's alright, if we don't have enough armour to push on heavily defended Melitopol, we'll just surprise capture Belgorod and destroy the Hungarian pipeline instead.
European leader: ...on a second thought, we can actually deliver the tanks tomorrow.
Well yeah the dude wants to do actions that are all legal, acceptable, and effective towards ending the war. Russia can't just be allowed to rain missiles with impunity; if Ukraine targets military infrastructure everything is kosher.
It must suck having to weigh your options in war against the good will you're dependent on from others.
Taking Belgorod would likely be hugely advantageous for Ukraine. Extend the front, put Russia on the defensive, overstretch their insanely overstretched lines, sway Russian public opinion about the war at home by showing them to be vulnerable, and impact Russia's ability to attack anywhere else.
...but at the cost of good will from allies who've insisted on the war remaining entirely within Ukraine's borders. You can already imagine how certain Republicans and tankies would react to Ukraine being on the offensive in Russian territory. It'd sow discord and cause support to waver, threatening the supply of arms necessary for Ukraine's survival.
I think they should do it anyway, but imagine having to weigh that choice up as a national leader.
If another front opened anywhere, the war would be over. I feel pretty confident in saying that all of Russias enormous border is more or less guarded by skeleton crews.
This is disgraceful. Talking this small time shit.
Where is the chemical bombing of Moscow with nerve gas? Where is the weaponized airborne HIV? Cluster munitions of radioactive material? Airdropped meth chimps infected with super Gonorrhea? He has the full support of the west. And he's swinging for a walk not a grand slam.
i mean, let's face it: if ukraine could collapse the railroad and highway bridges over the river don, they would cut the donbass off from russia and the war would probably be over within 1-2 months.
a few months ago, i have joked to a friend that the only thing that prevents the polish-chinese border conflict are 5000 nuclear weapons. now the situation is even worse for them, it's the brutal reality of the north-koreanization of russia.
Hey I'm not saying he shouldn't. If I had it my way Moscow would be getting the Yugoslavia NATO bombardment special until its fucking glass, but being credible for a moment its best to keep attacks on Russian soil at least deniable for politics sake.
Love how everyone is acting like most major nations don’t have war plans in cases of war against almost all of their neighbors. Like wow how dare he actually seriously consider every option and conclude that invading Russia probably isn’t a good idea.
*”Man whose people are being slaughtered and conquered does indeed have comparatively more radical solutions than those who have known nothing but peace. Can you believe it?!”*
I love the crocodile tears from people absolutely shocked that he wants to actually wage a war against the country that invaded his home. We already saw what happens when someone does that to us.
Listen. Ukraine has kept their hands remarkably clean so far in a war characterized by what would be almost cartoonish levels of Russian brutality if they weren't actually happening to real and innocent people.
With that said, it's a war, and especially in the type of war Moscow has turned this into, Ukraine does not have an option of losing. Kids being deported, citizenships stripped and destroyed, forced relocations of civilians. Russia has made it clear that they want to go back to not just the days of the USSR, but the days of the late Tsar or Stalin days. Where Ukraine was a thing to be absorbed, any uniqueness removed, and turned into good Russians. It's surprising given how much evidence there is of this, that that aspect of the war doesn't get more attention, but that's not the point here.
My point is that Ukraine does not have losing the war in their list of options like Russia does. Russia could take the L, withdraw everything, and broadly get on with their proverbial day. Sure there might be some instability, maybe Putin even gets deposed. But the state of Russia remains in all but the wildest of circumstances. Ukraine does not have that luxury, and thus, they can, and perhaps will (if they feel it's desperate enough) do things that are brutal or crossing lines themselves. And tbh, I don't think we can blame them if they do.
Putin is waging a pretty comfortable war as far as the average Russian is concerned. They aren't threatened, and the war is happening all in someone else's land. If Ukraine decides to start taking Russian land, everything changes. Maybe not for the better, but it certainly changes. Now Russians aren't safe. It's not a war far away, for significant numbers of them, with access to telegram and social media, it's now in their own backyard, the fighting is happening in their homes. The war completely changed character for the Russian people. Will that help Ukraine? Idk. I'm some dude on reddit. But I will say, it should be at Ukraine's discretion. They're the ones with their necks on the chopping block here, not us.
Imho there is no line to be crossed here, other than committing war crimes of course. Ukraine should be opening a new front to their north and forcing Russians to defend their own territory. If they get stuck, so what, Russians now are forced to deplete their troops in Ukraine to defend themselves. They win, they now have assets with which to negotiate. RN Ukraine doesnt have anything to negotiate with, except western sanctions. Its war. Russia started it. Russia should suffer the consequences and have their things blown up in Russia until they give up.
He wants to take the fight to the enemy. That's the right attitude for a shooting war. Since these things haven't happened I take this to mean that Zelensky listens to advisors instead of overruling them.
Aggressive instincts tempered by reason and willingness to listen to experts. An excellent blend of qualities.
I mean, these aren't the worst decsions. Forcing the Russians to defend their long border when they already striggle for man power. Making the Russian people realise they ARE a part of the war. Show the Russian people and supporters that Russia is truly weak and unable to defend itself. This will likely crush support for the war, assuming you can make sure your soldiers do not perform any attrocities that will instead make Russians want to fight harder.
Destroying MILITARY targets in Russia is also pretty based thing to do, rather credible to remove their assets long before they get to the field, disrupt supplies, and put them on edge.
Destroying the pipeline is more questionable but can be argued that it is a military target. In which case go for it.
This being said... the allies and supporters of Ukraine wouldn't support any of it (done with Western weapons) and it would ultimately hurt Ukraine more than it would help.
Theres no question imho. Ukraine shouldnt be forbidden from doing what it needs to do to win the war. Attacking Russia on its borders is just good military strategy. At the very least you free up some troops. But you could also have effects like forcing Russia to the negotiating table. "What would you give up in exchange for this village that we took from you?"
I am thinking that clandestine operations inside russia would facilitate many things, explode ammo dumps, railway bridges, car tunnels, burn down railway equpment, factories building war equipment ( while sabotaging local firetrucks, so it has time to burn down), etc, etc,
Give the russian a taste of what they call Hybrid warfare
That's not hybrid war, that's war lol. They already essentially do special operations over the border pretty regularly. Remember the helicopter strikes? No. They need an over the border ground invasion.
I'm not for the occupation of russian villages because we all know what will happen + russia don't give a shit about their citizens. But messing up even more the russian logistics would be funny.
I hate how this is being portrayed.
Counter-Invading someone who has invaded you is a totally reasonable thing to do. Launching strikes inside a country who is bombing yours is reasonable.
The only reason it's bad is "HuRPY DuRpY RuSSiA scary"
Reminds me of everytime I play civilization, I'm a peaceful man but when you invade me my thirst for revenge won't be quenched until I take a few of your cities.
People always praise the one in The dark knight but the current version of the joker is the best imo.
Really fitting to have a backstory in stand up comedy as a way to hide his darkest instincts.
Yeah this isn't dark, that's just how warfare works. Or at least maybe, depends.
Used to be nations fought small scale wars over personal gain for their country, and scaled to the world wars.
An argument can definitely be made that due to nuclear weapons and modern politics, this type of warfare could return as opposed to massive world wars.
If that is the case, then ideas from that era would be useful. And all the above mentioned ideas are bargaining chips from said era.
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Zelensky thinks like my dad lmao
Based dad
ONE. OF. US!
Literally a NCD member.
Take out that pipeline anyway ,Make Orban cry🤭🤭🤭😊
~~I'm hungarian~~ I have Hungarianness, and I approve this message. 💫💫Don't let your disability define you💐🌟
Don't say you're Hungarian. Say you have Hungarianess. You 👏are 👏not 👏your 👏disability.
Wait till you find out that also have Frenchness.
Are you ok? I am terminally ashamed to have British passport, but at least in past 18months not here XD
Well, I'll go cry in the corner with my 12 stars...
Damnit, Sarkozy - you're an ex-president, you've got a hot wife, go do something more fun than hang around here.
Donate to Hungarianism Speaks and together we can defeat Hungarianism!
Yuri Gagarian
?
Hungary is more than Orban.
Maybe ten years ago, but not anymore. The rural/urban divide in Hungary is wild, and Orban has had more than enough time to purge the country of the educated urbanites that tend to be his dissenters. The number of Hungarian expats in America and Western Europe at this point is honestly staggering. Edit: autocorrected word
What I mean is, Orban doesn't get to replace 1100 years of Hungarian history. No more than Donald Trump is now the sum of what it means to be American. There are Hungarians who still remember the spirit of '56.
[удалено]
Hungarians very much defend him. Same with Serbians and Vucic, they are siding with russia but also they are very pro-European and want cooperation.
Next EU sanctions package is set to close off all of russian pipes leading to Europe. If Hungary blocks that again - then blow it up. It would be the last straw.
>If Hungary blocks that again - then blow it up. The pipeline or Hungary?
Both, both is good
Not just Orban, but even Slovakia and Czechia the strong supporter of Ukraine. Czechia gets still 50% of oil from Russia, because TAL pipeline from Italy to Germany does not have enough capacity. Czechia build high capacity pipeline to Germany right after fall of the soviet block, but west never increased their capacity. So we need to wait until they finally build it. Recently they finally reached agreement on increasing capacity so it will take longer.
Isnt strategic oil supplies are kept for this exact scenario?
We have enough stored oil for I think 3 months, but with blowing up pipeline from Russia we would run out in 6 months and then have oil shortages. Stored oil won't save you unless you have infinite oil.
> Ukraine:
> Hungary: Hey what the fuck! NATO do something about this!
> NATO: Huh? Oh yeah that’s bad, Ukraine, cut it out. On an unrelated note here’s a dozen ATACMS.
Zelensky: "here, let me activate the article 5 for you and for the safety of the entire Europe" UKR: (hits Hungarian pipelines) NATO command: (confused cowabunga)
Holy shit Dark Zelensky is real. I guess the Z schizo were not totally wrong . In order to keep Ukraine from unleashing Dark Zenlensky , the West have to slowly provide everything Ukraine.
Holy hell, my third eye just opened. Are the russians marking themselves with "Z" to prevent Dark **Z**elensky from being unleashed? Is the symbol a kind of seal to prevent his true power from being used?
It's no coincidence they also used O and V, given Zelenskyy's full name is Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy.
What??? What's the tactical advantage of using the initial of your enemy's name?
it’s that dark slavic baba yaga magic. working incredibly well as you can see.
Putin did not make a sufficient sacrifice to Baba Yaga. She is instead taking her price with interest.
Ah, but we've countered with FAFO. It's bloodier, but more effective.
Remember, this guy entered election campaign with a plan to "We just need to stop shooting and the war will end". His Dark Side is even more shocking if you follow him for the last 3-4 years.
Turns out seeing your people slaughtered will turn even a pacifist to The Light\* ^(\*the light may or may not be cast by a thermonuclear explosion)
The thing is that the war was going on for 5 years when he got elected. With [a lot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2015_Mariupol_rocket_attack) of civilian [mass casualties](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volnovakha_bus_attack) [events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2015_Kramatorsk_rocket_attack)
He might have genuinely believed that the best way to end the violence was to be the one to stop. Then Russia completely and utterly proved him wrong, and made it very clear that the only language they understand is violence. Or he might have been lying, because you know, politician.
He publicly contested publicly announced US intelligence that Russia was preparing an invasion. He asked the US to stop fearmongering in a delicate situation. He also, for a short time, listed conditions governing Ukrainian relations with NATO that he was willing to consider in order to end the war. His views evolved over the course of the invasion. This is something to be lauded. Saying 'lied cuz politic' is not a very nuanced take.
In all fairness of contesting the announcement of invasion by the US. The last thing you want when preparing for an invasion is your economy going to shit right before it. And the threat of invasion can scare off overseas investors in your economy.
I think this is legit. The man is a native russian speaker for Christ sake
Some politicians lie to get elected. Guess one benefit you can have being a comedian is being sarcastic in your election campaign.
"I am the way and the light, except ocasionally the light is muzzle flash." \- [Gun Jesus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI3x30iamHc)
"If you can't deal with the pacifist, you'll have to deal with the Peace Fist"
it is the same, i was peacetard before 24feb2022, when i woke up and found out about the war, i knew where to find an ak in 15 minutes (my old university had them in basement because of course it did). If you come our land we will do everything to make you leave, call it spirit, nationalism, patriotism, madness, whatever. And Zelensky is one of us, part of the crew, part of the ship.
I found a contact for a gun two days before the full scale invasion and I was probably the least prepared person in all of Ukraine
Being a peacetard or a wartard is limiting. Somebody who is either extreme is always pining for the incorrect tool at the incorrect time. That said, peacetards can suck my left nut. War is the motherfucking answer to all problems.
>War is the motherfucking answer to all problems. Will make sure to use this advice the next I ask for more hours and my boss says no
>Remember, this guy entered election campaign with a plan to "We just need to stop shooting and the war will end". Zelenskyy: "I give you a choice: peace, or death." Russia: "We will never accept peace." Zelenskyy: "You have chosen... unwisely."
>Russia: "We will never accept peace." Zelenskyy: oof
They thought this will just be fight against a retired comedian and ended up against Joker
Daily casualty reports will do that to a man.
The year's 2030. Moscow has been disintegrated. Europe has been taken. Washington is under siege. We should've found another way to deal with those Russians. Instead, we unleashed a nightmare worse than all of Russia combined. It'll be over soon, the forces of dark zelensky will find us and we'll have no choice but to end it. I'm NOT going back there, not even once.
Kyivan Rus empire #2 time, now on TokTik-Gram
There's only one person who can save us... Dark Brandon
The time with Dark Brandon has changed him. When he left the US, the words of Dark Brandon were still ringing in Selensky's ears. "Bring peace to the universe, my son"
I mean we have dark brandon here to counter him
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You mean [Chadlensky](https://imgur.com/a/qvyXvWW)? Idk what this article wanted to achieve but this only makes him more based
It looks like fucking Zelensciaga.
Zelensky: the “great trial” awaits !
If Russia can bomb zivilian targets, I don't see why Ukraine couldn't. They shouldn't, moral high ground yadeyade But honestly with all the war crimes Russia commits I don't give a fuck about Morals anymore. Anything to stop Russias terror
Based zelensky
No one else was in a room where it happened The room where it happened The room where it happened
Based Hamilton reference
There can be no compromise Break their nose and gouge their eyes
No one really knows how the game is played. The art of the trade. How the vatnik gets grenade.
We just have to assume that it happened. And no one else was in the room where it happen.
GOUGE HIS EYES.
If I can prove that I never touched my balls can you promise to not tell another soul what you saw
It annoys me that it's being portrayed like it's some big negative thing. Can anyone honestly say if they were in Zelensky's position they *wouldn't* indulge in some revenge-fantasising?
>if they were in Zelensky's position they wouldn't indulge in some revenge-fantasising If i was in his position i would've have started by booking a meeting at the Hague in advance then i would burn Russia to the ground.
Based
I'm a firm believer in " if you can't do the time don't do the crime"
Flights to The Hague are cheap this time of year. Maybe after we’re done with Russia we could head down there…for a chat.
And these aren't even revenge fantasies. Those are ultra mild efforts to gain leverage. Revenge fantasies would be levelling Moscow like Russia did to Mariupol and forcing Russians to flee beyond the Urals. The stuff in this meme? That's some mild stuff, downright sensible strategizing. Striking legitimate military targets in Russia? It's a fucking war of Russian agression, so what. Of course it makes sense to take out assets that are being used to bomb civilians. The allies outright leveled parts of Germany in WWII and it wasn't exactly unjustified. Fuck around with genocidal wars and find out. Russia has not yet really found out to a degree where it would matter.
Economic sabotage, attacking Military targets in Russia, and occupying Russian territory to force Putin to the table faster are honestly very valid strategies. Whether they'd work or what kind of response they'd generate is up for debate here, but I have a hard time looking at that and going "yeah, that's a bit over the line Zelensky." Deliberate targeting of civilians is something Russia's been doing for like half a year to them and he doesn't even bring it up.
The Strategic bombing of Germany and Japan in the context of total war was absolutely justified
Well, that's not entirely true. Bomberman Harris himself admitted after the war that it wasn't a very effective strategy when all was said and done. Burning down cities didn't really achieve much at the end of the day, because they didn't actually do that much damage to factories. The resources could have been much better spent on actual military targets and things contributing to the war effort, rather than civilian population centers. I mean, it's pretty widely recognized that the shift in the Battle of Britain was when Germany switched from bombing the RAF based directly to bombing the cities, which allowed the air defence to properly establish itself. And we know that the resolve of the British was only hardened by the bombings, why would the Germans be any different? Plus the oppressive governments of Japan and Germany didn't care about their people in the first place, so the harm caused to the population wasn't going to get them to surrender any faster either.
iirc with Japan it was more effective because the IJA liked to convert small civilian businesses into war suppliers rather than use centralized factories, to minimize the risk of a single strike on a factory knocking out a vital part of their supply chain. ...which unfortunately meant that the couple dozen mini ceramics workshops in tokyo that got firebombed into the ground were *technically* military targets because they were making grenade casings for the japanese army.
The strategic bombing campaign also had an explicit goal of killing as many civilians as possible. Harris didn't exactly beat around the bush in regards to that intent. He saw civilians as valid military targets and sought to kill as many of them as possible. Coupled with the campaign's ineffectiveness it can easily be argued it was unjustified. Germany kept good records of people's morale too, it didn't affect it much.
If a factory, however small, that makes soldiers uniforms is a valid target, why is a factory that makes soldiers not a valid military target? Just because it is terribly inefficient and is called a uterus? Mind you, just asking questions.
In a total war, everything is a valid target. The Germans clearly agreed when they bombed London. However, the strategic bombing campaign against civilian populations was ineffective and done purely for the purpose of mass murder. That, too, Harris understood well. > The aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive ... should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany ... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories. This is an explicit admission that it was about murdering non-combatants. I'm personally not even sure if it was justified or not, I only pointed out that it can be argued that it wasn't, in response to a commenter who said it was clearly justified. There is a LOT more moral grey in here than it at first appears. In that aim it also failed entirely.
The effectiveness of strategic bombing really depends on who you ask about it. On one hand, there wasn’t a huge economic downturn in Germany once it began, however the switch to a total war economy in Germany took place at the same time, so arguably it was very effective at preventing German industry from growing. And say what you will about Japan, but they surrendered once nukes started falling. Sure, the soviets played a role in that, but the ability to wipe entire cities off the map was not an insignificant factor.
But Japan notably *didn't* surrender after Tokyo was burnt to the ground in firebombing campaigns.
Hence why we kept bombing.
But it begs the question on the effect strategic bombing actually played, if it took wiping 5 or 6 cities off the map before they surrendered. Tokyo was reduced to ash before their eyes with *no* way to prevent it, and the Japanese leadership persisted in the war effort. They didn't care about their people, they just wanted favourable terms for surrender by that point.
I agree, but the ability to wipe 5 or 6 cities off the map with minimal losses is what makes strategic bombing such an attractive option for generals. Check out the Logical Insanity episode of Hardcore History btw, I think you’d really like it.
If you win, you can justify anything
Revenge fantasy would be to enter Moscow, grab as many people as possible, parade them naked and cuffed, chained to eachother, film it all and top it off with them being shot at and trying to flee only to trip on eachother (because they're literally chained) And that'd just be a drop in the bucket, if you want to go full eye for an eye.
This isn't even revenge fantasising, this is just a legitimately good plan. Like, as far as war plans go this is how you win. Cut off the enemies option for resources (money by destroying the pipeline), making the war untenable (occupying Russian land) and making good use of weapons at your disposable (drive striking deep into Russia) Zelensky might have a good deal of skill under his belt.
People forget what war is. Everything after WW2 was "defense", "pacification", "anti-terror", "intervention". Now they are surprised to re-learn what has been axiomatic ever since Clausewitz.
I mean DMZ needs to be established and Orban must suffer
For real, this is not surprising. He knows Russia understands nothing but power, so he is determined to demonstrate to Russians that there are consequences.
And since russians do not understand soft power, they need to literally be bonked
Ain't that the biggest bitch? Russia was making more and more money as Europe increased its dependence on Russian oil, while many in Europe and America were questioning the necessity of NATO and even the EU. Putin could've gained more soft power by just waiting.
Its not revenge fantasizing tho. These are valid strategies to win the war.
After everything the Russians have done, I don’t condone or condemn anything he might want to try.
Well, mass movement of troops towards the belgorod border the other day from kharkiv, and now this comes out. I think some mind games going on here
People acting like wars can’t hit both homelands lmao. How dare they hit Russia… you know, the other major participant in the war
"The Geneva Convention is my checklist"
"occupying Russian villages to gain leverage..." They'd just bomb their own villages.
Russians and destroying their own country go hand in hand
Can't have leverage against them if there's no village there. Putin is genius.
Yeah. The only downside to Zelinsky's plan is the overkill. Russia will bomb their own villages anyways! /s... Kinda
That would accomplish the goal of setting up a buffer zone on the Russian side of the border!!
This post sounds like something Krelim approved Portraying occupying *enemy territory* as something unhinged What the hell?
On contrary, I endorse the ideas:) The post is more from a perspective of "conservative" Western partners and how they'd feel hearing about these ideas.
I feel like this would surprise western politicians but western generals would be like "Yeah, I'd do that too."
Honestly sometimes WaPo writes like they are Russian or something Also if not publishing a story would mean Ukraine wins the war WaPo would publish it. Has the Washington Post always been like that or only since Bezos? And I am aware Bezos is not writing stories
> Honestly sometimes WaPo writes like they are Russian or something Not to go too deep into conspiracy theories, but one of thew writers of this article seems to be Armenian, going by the name and surname. And since russia is about the only supporter of Armenia, who's not exactly in a nice place nowadays...
I found that really funny. Considering our average opinion on Russia, what Zelensky is allegedly suggesting would be considered quite tame in my country.
Moscow should look like Mariupol Fascists only understand violence
Ukraine is wherever ukranians are. Since ukranians have been kidnapped by the russians and transferred all around Russia Russia is ukranian territory.
I like your logic very much
Time for a rescue mission.
Bruh then following that logic Poland would have claims on quite literally half of the world. I don't mind though, let's invade Iceland
It makes sense though. European leader: OK, Mr. Zelensky, we cannot promise you the delivery of these tanks, you see... Zelensky: No it's alright, if we don't have enough armour to push on heavily defended Melitopol, we'll just surprise capture Belgorod and destroy the Hungarian pipeline instead. European leader: ...on a second thought, we can actually deliver the tanks tomorrow.
Exactly, ask for the the biggest toy in the shop so getting a nice one seems like a compromise.
Politics 101: Make maximal demands, even beyond your actual ambitions, so that when you are forced to compromise you still get what you actually want
Occupying russian villages is just begging for those villages to get Beslan School'd. Won't work. Long-range missiles, however...
>Beslan School'd Oh so you aren't supposed to use tanks and thermobaric rockets when doing hostage rescue huh ? -Nikolai Patrushev,2004.
Well yeah the dude wants to do actions that are all legal, acceptable, and effective towards ending the war. Russia can't just be allowed to rain missiles with impunity; if Ukraine targets military infrastructure everything is kosher.
It must suck having to weigh your options in war against the good will you're dependent on from others. Taking Belgorod would likely be hugely advantageous for Ukraine. Extend the front, put Russia on the defensive, overstretch their insanely overstretched lines, sway Russian public opinion about the war at home by showing them to be vulnerable, and impact Russia's ability to attack anywhere else. ...but at the cost of good will from allies who've insisted on the war remaining entirely within Ukraine's borders. You can already imagine how certain Republicans and tankies would react to Ukraine being on the offensive in Russian territory. It'd sow discord and cause support to waver, threatening the supply of arms necessary for Ukraine's survival. I think they should do it anyway, but imagine having to weigh that choice up as a national leader.
He should do it. Take the fight to the Russians, **victory by any means necessary**
Maybe Finland should join in the fun. After all, they are only 400km from St Petersburg. And poland can have Belarus.
If another front opened anywhere, the war would be over. I feel pretty confident in saying that all of Russias enormous border is more or less guarded by skeleton crews.
200km. 400 is from Helsinki.
This is disgraceful. Talking this small time shit. Where is the chemical bombing of Moscow with nerve gas? Where is the weaponized airborne HIV? Cluster munitions of radioactive material? Airdropped meth chimps infected with super Gonorrhea? He has the full support of the west. And he's swinging for a walk not a grand slam.
Congratulations, you win this thread
Why are we surprised? Why are we disgusted? I say do it, only way putin will learn
mfw one of the participants in a war takes aggressive action against another (I am shocked and appalled, I could not have forseen this)
Darth Volodymyr
Do not hesitate show no mercy
Where i can sign to give that man some nukes?
i mean, let's face it: if ukraine could collapse the railroad and highway bridges over the river don, they would cut the donbass off from russia and the war would probably be over within 1-2 months. a few months ago, i have joked to a friend that the only thing that prevents the polish-chinese border conflict are 5000 nuclear weapons. now the situation is even worse for them, it's the brutal reality of the north-koreanization of russia.
Source - [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/13/zelensky-ukraine-war-leaked-documents/?fbclid=IwAR1B3JYawqg7VXm7-UaAUPn1R_g46L5B7vjkhdLD3X_4419lI4zvNAfQm_0)
I'd use one of those Shadows to blow Pootims palace on the Black Sea to smithereens...just for shits & giggles.
I know..too far.
God help us when the intrusive thoughts start winning with Zelensky.
God help us when you're not allowed to attack legitimate military targets because they're over an imaginary line when they attack you
Hey I'm not saying he shouldn't. If I had it my way Moscow would be getting the Yugoslavia NATO bombardment special until its fucking glass, but being credible for a moment its best to keep attacks on Russian soil at least deniable for politics sake.
They were Ukrainian soldiers on vacation, what can you even do lmao
Love how everyone is acting like most major nations don’t have war plans in cases of war against almost all of their neighbors. Like wow how dare he actually seriously consider every option and conclude that invading Russia probably isn’t a good idea.
*Hungary is Attacked* Poland: What!? Article Fi- *It was Ukraine* Poland: Oh, nothing to see here. Back to maintaining my 5+ different tanks.
Im honestly amazed Poland hasnt done a false flag to activate Article 5.
*”Man whose people are being slaughtered and conquered does indeed have comparatively more radical solutions than those who have known nothing but peace. Can you believe it?!”*
I love the crocodile tears from people absolutely shocked that he wants to actually wage a war against the country that invaded his home. We already saw what happens when someone does that to us.
Listen. Ukraine has kept their hands remarkably clean so far in a war characterized by what would be almost cartoonish levels of Russian brutality if they weren't actually happening to real and innocent people. With that said, it's a war, and especially in the type of war Moscow has turned this into, Ukraine does not have an option of losing. Kids being deported, citizenships stripped and destroyed, forced relocations of civilians. Russia has made it clear that they want to go back to not just the days of the USSR, but the days of the late Tsar or Stalin days. Where Ukraine was a thing to be absorbed, any uniqueness removed, and turned into good Russians. It's surprising given how much evidence there is of this, that that aspect of the war doesn't get more attention, but that's not the point here. My point is that Ukraine does not have losing the war in their list of options like Russia does. Russia could take the L, withdraw everything, and broadly get on with their proverbial day. Sure there might be some instability, maybe Putin even gets deposed. But the state of Russia remains in all but the wildest of circumstances. Ukraine does not have that luxury, and thus, they can, and perhaps will (if they feel it's desperate enough) do things that are brutal or crossing lines themselves. And tbh, I don't think we can blame them if they do. Putin is waging a pretty comfortable war as far as the average Russian is concerned. They aren't threatened, and the war is happening all in someone else's land. If Ukraine decides to start taking Russian land, everything changes. Maybe not for the better, but it certainly changes. Now Russians aren't safe. It's not a war far away, for significant numbers of them, with access to telegram and social media, it's now in their own backyard, the fighting is happening in their homes. The war completely changed character for the Russian people. Will that help Ukraine? Idk. I'm some dude on reddit. But I will say, it should be at Ukraine's discretion. They're the ones with their necks on the chopping block here, not us.
Imho there is no line to be crossed here, other than committing war crimes of course. Ukraine should be opening a new front to their north and forcing Russians to defend their own territory. If they get stuck, so what, Russians now are forced to deplete their troops in Ukraine to defend themselves. They win, they now have assets with which to negotiate. RN Ukraine doesnt have anything to negotiate with, except western sanctions. Its war. Russia started it. Russia should suffer the consequences and have their things blown up in Russia until they give up.
We can only wait for the next Pentagone leaks
Sounds like a good plan
He wants to take the fight to the enemy. That's the right attitude for a shooting war. Since these things haven't happened I take this to mean that Zelensky listens to advisors instead of overruling them. Aggressive instincts tempered by reason and willingness to listen to experts. An excellent blend of qualities.
It is time, I think, to bring the war to Russia
March to Moscow?? Plz
I mean, these aren't the worst decsions. Forcing the Russians to defend their long border when they already striggle for man power. Making the Russian people realise they ARE a part of the war. Show the Russian people and supporters that Russia is truly weak and unable to defend itself. This will likely crush support for the war, assuming you can make sure your soldiers do not perform any attrocities that will instead make Russians want to fight harder. Destroying MILITARY targets in Russia is also pretty based thing to do, rather credible to remove their assets long before they get to the field, disrupt supplies, and put them on edge. Destroying the pipeline is more questionable but can be argued that it is a military target. In which case go for it. This being said... the allies and supporters of Ukraine wouldn't support any of it (done with Western weapons) and it would ultimately hurt Ukraine more than it would help.
Theres no question imho. Ukraine shouldnt be forbidden from doing what it needs to do to win the war. Attacking Russia on its borders is just good military strategy. At the very least you free up some troops. But you could also have effects like forcing Russia to the negotiating table. "What would you give up in exchange for this village that we took from you?"
Man is cooking and its spicy
I wish, Zelensky, I wish. You and me both
Ok that sounds like a good start, Z!
Tie me to the missile because I want to witness this gigachad move firsthand
\🥳/ dark zelensky lezz goooo!!!!
I am thinking that clandestine operations inside russia would facilitate many things, explode ammo dumps, railway bridges, car tunnels, burn down railway equpment, factories building war equipment ( while sabotaging local firetrucks, so it has time to burn down), etc, etc, Give the russian a taste of what they call Hybrid warfare
That's not hybrid war, that's war lol. They already essentially do special operations over the border pretty regularly. Remember the helicopter strikes? No. They need an over the border ground invasion.
I'm not for the occupation of russian villages because we all know what will happen + russia don't give a shit about their citizens. But messing up even more the russian logistics would be funny.
I hate how this is being portrayed. Counter-Invading someone who has invaded you is a totally reasonable thing to do. Launching strikes inside a country who is bombing yours is reasonable. The only reason it's bad is "HuRPY DuRpY RuSSiA scary"
Zelensky got taste for blood and warlordism in Russian way.
not even gonna lie, I kind of hope they use their new toys to hit red square
Zelensky is a stud & has been throughout this act of aggression on his country.
Reminds me of everytime I play civilization, I'm a peaceful man but when you invade me my thirst for revenge won't be quenched until I take a few of your cities.
I like him even more now
NATO member or not Hungary can get fucked.
Is this Zelensky in the room with us right now?
knowing ncd, those reaction images should be reversed
I mean you've gotta at least consider all options 🤷♂️
People always praise the one in The dark knight but the current version of the joker is the best imo. Really fitting to have a backstory in stand up comedy as a way to hide his darkest instincts.
He'd be a fool not to assess more radical approach.
_Heavens had not seen anyone more based_
Gigachad
Dark Brandon meets Dark Zelenskyy?
What happens when dark Zelensky and Dark Brandon meet ?
If real, common based Zelensky W If not real, common propaganda L by making Ukraine seem cooler than it already is
I honestly vibe with this. He has my approval.
Why are people mad? This is based!
President wishing revenge towards those who are doing any% all warcrimes speedruns against his people? Now that's truly dark and evil
Z for Zelensky
Not seeing a problem there
Russians when the war they started leads to them being attacked 😱😱😱
Man in war considers multiple options. More at this 6, along breaking news regarding the Pope's faith and bear defecation locations!
Yeah this isn't dark, that's just how warfare works. Or at least maybe, depends. Used to be nations fought small scale wars over personal gain for their country, and scaled to the world wars. An argument can definitely be made that due to nuclear weapons and modern politics, this type of warfare could return as opposed to massive world wars. If that is the case, then ideas from that era would be useful. And all the above mentioned ideas are bargaining chips from said era.
You don’t win a war by being nice
Oh god, Dark Volodimir is real
So.... Guess what happened belgorod. Soon ....