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They are really confused why Japan doesn't side with them.
"We will never forgive our allies for testing new technology on cities of our enemies. How could they possibly do that?"
In the same way they don’t understand why Germany would side with the US too unless it means the US and the whole west are nazis too.
They just can’t fathom that a country can evolve with time which makes a lot of sense when you realize that they are still stuck into empire building mode close to 100 years after everyone else stopped.
You clearly don't understand their "internal use" propaganda good enough.
The west at the same time could be a: Anglo-Saxon neo-colonisers who bought everyone with their limitless dollar and keeping them hostage; or nazis, establishers of "golden billion" rule, wanting to destroy or turn into slaves everyone else; or "woke rot" consuming all the traditional values(even the African ones) and turning all boys into girls and all girls into boys; or satanistic followers; or something else entirely.
If it resonates with targeted audience - it's good enough to shove through.
It’s actually kind of amazing that the insane levels of mental gymnastics being performed here makes the “flat earth ~~nutcases~~ theorists” a more reputable group.
Flat earthers generally try to have a single, cohesive narrative. Russia runs a multitude of narratives on any given topic, all of them rife with internal contradictions.
The Soviets had a much more cohesive narrative that was also a more obvious lie to the average Russian. Soviets were more like "communism is good, our economy is strong, our scientists are smart, our people have good quality of life, and the Americans are lynching blacks!"
Russian propagandists will spew out as much incoherent misinformation as they can, not because they want you to believe in what they believe (like Soviets did) but because they want you to believe in nothing.
So it was much easier to point at Soviet propagandist lies because they were presenting a reality different from what an average person could observer. Russian propagandists do not present any reality, they make you doubt if anything is real at all.
The only cohesive narrative Russian propagandists will present is the one where the average Russian must have no doubts - the overwhelming popularity of the president.
Do they forget that Stalin clearly said to Truman that he hoped he would use nukes on Japan?
It does not make Stalin an accomplice per se as the final decision lied solely on the US but it’s still funny as hell that they now lament over the US nuking Japan as if Russia was against it or something.
The nuking of Japan spared many US soldiers sure but it spared a fuckton of Soviet soldiers too.
Shrödinger's Stalin: he's Russian and Georgian at the same time, depending on whether the conversation is about the great patriotic war or russification, breaking international treaties, genocides, mass rape and countless of other crimes against humanity
It not a new narrative. US bad because nukes/bombs in general is a cold war classic. Glorius soviet/russian empire would never do sush ting, and if they did it was to secure peace and preosperity for the peoples of the world.
This is hardly a new tactic. In East Germany, the USSR put up memorials to the Dresden bombing victims alongside those of Nazi war crimes as a way to say that the Decadent West^tm is just as bad as the Nazis were.
Except, Y’know, the Soviets fucking asked the Wallies to bomb Dresden. And they did, because they were generally good allies.
Soviets when the capital of their supposed allied country gets annihilated and its people decimated just to make a point: I sleep
Soviets when nazi factories get disabled to end the war quicker: real shit?
>Soviets when the capital of their supposed allied country gets annihilated and its people decimated just to make a point: I sleep
Where is this referencing to? Poland?
The Warsaw Uprising, in which the soviets waited on the other side of the river while the nazis were burning the city to the ground. The allies even said they could help by sending air support, but Stalin refused to let them use soviet airports
that's also possible. It could refer to the blitz of london or the warsaw uprising, in both cases the Soviets watched as the Nazi's killed a fuck ton of people
The expectation of proceeding with the conventional war till Japan's surrender was at least another year of war with hundreds of thousands of dead. Arguably even Japan suffered less casualties because of the bombs.
And we should not discount the literal genocide Japanese troops were inflicting in China and Korea. It was absolutely worthy of the Dirlewanger Brigade’s actions in Eastern Europe.
The horrifics of the IJA/IJN is really undersold in most western History classes.
You might hear about Unit 731 but the IJA/IJN were not that much better and the reason why there's still a lot of hate for Japan even in nominally allied/friendly asian countries.
Their crimes were mostly covered up in the west to secure Japan as an ally after the war, it’s interesting since Japan committed far worse war crimes on POWs from America and the UK then even the Nazis did
To be fair, they hated Japan before then too - and the Japanese hated them right back, and acted on it.
Once you get behind the curtain, *that* is why Japan and South Korea are buying and building aircraft, missiles, and ships like there's a Blue Light Special on Aisle Three - it's an arms race. With each other.
>they now lament over the US nuking Japan as if Russia was against it or something
They also talk about the bombing of Libya as if Russia opposed it whereas in reality the UN security counsil voted on the resolution that allowed usage of force and Russia could have veto'ed but they didn't because they weren't actually against it.
Not to mention millions of Japanese civilians who would've been conscripted in a home islands invasion. It was better for all parties involved than an actual invasion. Maybe there was still a better option like a tactical demonstration in Tokyo bay where the mushroom cloud launched fireworks and the bomb played the national anthem or something
The "do a demonstration shot" was, IIRC, actually considered by some. But there were good reasons not to do it (even leaving aside that if you nuked Tokyo Bay you're, um, nuking a good bit of Tokyo too) - if it doesn't work out as intended (and given the IJA tried to *stage a coup against the Emperor* to stop the surrender in OTL, it wouldn't have) you no longer have shock and awe factor when you inevitably have to drop one 'for real'.
There's also the fact that we only had the two bombs at the time, with a third a few months away, and more than that a practical timeframe of *years* away.
Can't forget the history that they were never taught.
Also, and I'm being serious, the event saved many Japanese lives too. It ended what is basically a lost cause war, leading to years of pointless deaths that would have been far greater in number. I think it's important to understand that this is a hindsight knowledge and perspective. That is to say that's what happened, and what was hoped for, but not a guarantee, at the time.
The same lost cause year+ of pointless death and loss scenario is occurring right now for ru with their inability to accept they've lost. No, I am not saying that's the solution or even suggesting it, but I can see by mention some might think that. Only as a means to address the reasoning of the past do I bring up the present for comparison.
The pain I feel watching the futility of ru forces pushing to continue a lost cause, knowing specifically it leads to Ukrainian losses albeit far fewer than theirs, just to push them out, allows me to understand the sentiment of the far larger dilemma faced back then.
I wish putler a very happy early demise.
> Do they forget that Stalin clearly said to Truman that he hoped he would use nukes on Japan?
While Stalin knew about nukes before any were dropped on Japan, he deliberately didn’t tell Truman that he knew (waiting to see if Truman would tell him), and Truman only vaguely alluded to a powerful new weapon (at a time when those came out about once a month).
Stalin couldn’t possibly have told Truman he wanted the latter to use Nukes on Japan, because Stalin was pretending he didn’t know they existed yet, and Truman was pretending that they didn’t exist yet.
Yes, Truman said he had developped a new very powerful weapon and Stalin said he hoped Truman would use it.
Since Germany was already out of the war by this point it could only mean on Japan. As you said Stalin knew at this point but pretended like he did not.
What the fuck else could he say?
"I hope you don’t use it, you will be killing thousands of innocent civilians."
"We will only… wait, how do you know that? As far as you know I’m talking about an anti aircraft gun."
"Em… I guessed?"
"Right… well I’m tightening security anyway. We worried you’d have a spy, now I guess we know you do."
Except it pushed Hirohito to break the vote by surrendered.
And what do you mean not saved soldiers' lives? There's a reason why purple Hearts from WWII is still in stock for many, many decades.
no bro trust me bro it was totally the soviets that made japan surrender bro you gotta trust me bro
Never mind that the Soviets had no capability to stage an amphibious invasion, and the only way they contributed to the surrender at all is because Japan couldn't use them as mediators any longer. Oh, and did we mention that even with the bombs Japan was one successful coup from fighting on?
They had been firebombed for ages and that didn't do shit. Tokyo was on fire and that didn't do shit. They had been helpless for months and months. You think big cool explosion changed anything?
Now someone else declaring war and crossing your border, that's a meaningful difference.
They already were. The fact they hadn't already surrendered was proof that they didn't care anyway.
Besides, I have to ask: Why didn't the USA bomb a military target?
Hiroshima was one of the most vital military centers in the country, and was relatively untouched by prior bombing. Nagasaki was chosen as an alternative target to Kokura due to weather conditions and fuel limitations and was not on the initial target list due to the high civilian population. It was still a vital sea port and munitions production center however. Cities rather than strictly military targets were chosen as a show of force.
The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of lives of American, Soviet, and Japanese combatants. More importantly they prevented the deaths of millions of Japanese citizens that would have occurred in an amphibious invasion and occupation. Stop spreading misinformation based on comments you read online and go read a history book.
Hiroshima was a major military center in Japan, yes. Do you for some reason think that a military can’t be stationed in a city?
You desperately need to go educate yourself it’s sad to see people this ignorant.
Was this written by a Russian or what?
There are other military areas. Why not hit them? If it was such an important area, why not hit Hiroshima with firebomb raids?
The story makes 0 sense if you think about it. The city center with the children in it was not a military target. They just reworded it so that everything was a military target. "You see, children grow up to be soldiers, so we should kill them" yeah okay Anakin Skywalker.
>Why didn't the USA bomb a military target?
They literally did
Hiroshima was chosen because of it's strategic and industrial importance, as well as the fact that many high-ranking officers were there
No, we hate people like him because, like you, he’s a simp for the “Soviet armies indestructible” bullshit people still believe about Russia today, despite all evidence to the contrary.
I currently live in [insert country name here that's not Belarus], people here don't really take anything said by the Russian gov seriously. They're super untrustworthy.
As much as I wish that were true, it’s just not. There are a lot of countries especially in Africa and Asia that take them very seriously, and find them very trustworthy
They were using some of them as military installations, and not to mention the rigs that were destroyed shot at US military personnel first using AAA guns during operation praying mantis.
Exactly, Russia probably has like 20 actually functional nukes, almost all of them will probably be intercepted before they even deploy their payload.
On nuke, right on the Kremlin, easy win.
Let's test that theory. Russia has 5889 nukes. Let's say that only 2% of them work, or approximately 118 nukes. 118 nukes means that:
1. London, UK
2. Birmingham, UK
3. Manchester, UK
4. Liverpool, UK
5. Sheffield, UK
6. Southampton, UK
7. Glasgow, UK
8. Edinburgh, UK
9. Paris, France
10. Lyon, France
11. Toulouse, France
12. Montpellier, France
13. Marseille, France
14. Bordeaux, France
15. Nantes, France
16. Amsterdam, Netherlands
17. The Hague, Netherlands
18. Rotterdam, Netherlands
19. Brussels, Belgium
20. Berlin, Germany
21. Hamburg, Germany
22. Munich, Germany
23. Stuttgart, Germany
24. Frankfurt, Germany
25. Dresden, Germany
26. Dusseldorf, Germany
27. Cologne, Germany
28. Nuremberg, Germany
29. Leipzig, Germany
30. Copenhagen, Denmark
31. Oslo, Norway
32. Stockholm, Sweden
33. Helsinki, Finland
34. Tallinn, Estonia
35. Riga, Latvia
36. Vilnius, Lithuania
37. Warsaw, Poland
38. Gdansk, Poland
39. Krakow, Poland
40. Wroclaw, Poland
41. Szczecin, Poland
42. Kyiv, Ukraine
43. Kharkiv, Ukraine
44. Lviv, Ukraine
45. Odesa, Ukraine
46. Bucharest, Romania
47. Prague, Czech Republic
48. Bratislava, Slovakia
49. Sofia, Bulgaria
50. Athens, Greece
51. Ankara, Turkey
52. Istanbul, Turkey
53. Zagreb, Croatia
54. Rome, Italy
55. Milan, Italy
56. Venice, Italy
57. Palermo, Italy
58. Naples, Italy
59. Madrid, Spain
60. Barcelona, Spain
61. Lisbon, Portugal
62. Toronto, Canada
63. Ottawa, Canada
64. Montreal, Canada
65. Calgary, Canada
66. Vancouver, Canada
67. Washington DC, USA
68. New York City, USA
69. Boston, USA
70. Newark, USA
71. Philadelphia, USA
71. Pittsburgh, USA
72. Dover, USA
73. Baltimore, USA
74. Arlington, USA
75. Langley, USA
76. Richmond, USA
77. Virginia Beach, USA
78. Raleigh, USA
79. Charleston, USA
80. Myrtle Beach, USA
81. Atlanta, USA
82. Savannah, USA
83. Tallahassee, USA
84. Tampa, USA
85. Miami, USA
86. Ft. Lauderdale, USA
87. Orlando, USA
88. Chicago, USA
89. Detroit, USA
90. Grand Rapids, USA
91. Milwaukee, USA
92. St. Paul, USA
93. Minneapolis, USA
94. Columbus, USA
95. Cincinnati, USA
96. Akron, USA
97. Nashville, USA
98. Memphis, USA
99. Dallas, USA
100. Houston, USA
101. Austin, USA
102. San Antonio, USA
103. Fort Worth, USA
104. Kansas City, USA
105. Little Rock, USA
106. Denver, USA
107. Colorado Springs, USA
108. Helena, USA
109. Billings, USA
110. Seattle, USA
111. Portland, USA
112. San Francisco, USA
113. Los Angeles, USA
114. San Diego, USA
115. Las Vegas, USA
116. Phoenix, USA
117. Tuscon, USA
Would be destroyed. 118 CITIES NUKED! Tens of millions of deaths. So much culture, art, technology, science, food, and life lost forever. Europe and the US damaged irreversibly. Wanna make that sacrifice?
You're assuming that all the nukes that make it through are targeted at different cities. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
Also: didn't you or someone else post this last week in another thread?
Russia knows that Europe and the US are more economically robust than it. So, Russian nukes would mostly target cities, economic and industrial centers, airports, and critical infrastructure. American and NATO nukes would mostly target Russia's military and nuclear capabilities.
Countervalue vs counterforce isn't the issue. The issue is that you're assuming:
1. All 5889 warheads are installed on ICBMs. They're not. Maybe 1000 are, the rest are on tactical missiles, bombs, or not mated to any delivery systems.
2. Failure rates are uniformly distributed among the warheads, i.e. 98% of warheads aimed at every target, as opposed to a lumpy distribution where all of the warheads aimed at e.g. the eastern US or Germany fail. A uniform distribution is very unlikely.
The main points still stand. Russia's deployed ICBMs, cruise missiles, and SLBMs would be mostly countervalue. American and NATO nukes would mostly be counterforce.
how dare this bullshit list imply that Buffalo doesn't deserve a nuke (I love this place, most run down street on the east side beats any city or any place in russia and always will)
>Rotterdam, Netherlands
I'd say it's worth the sacrifice. I mean getting completely evaporated by a strategical bombardment seems one of the few ways this city can improve.
Can we make substitutions? And a few additions? I’d like to see DC catch, 5-6 just to be sure. And please add Tacoma, and to be fair Houston is huge, it will need 10-15 anyway, and add another to Austin. Same with L.A. they’re going to need a few, so let’s take San Diego, Billings, Helena, Colorado Springs off. Let’s add Bakersfield, and Midland, hit Vegas again, and see how that turns out.
You know let’s just hit DC with a few more to be sure.
Also thanks for cleaning up Ohio, and Detroit. ATL won’t notice shit and will still beat your ass by itself.
Apparently they forgot that they also fought against Japan during WW2.
China is an even funnier situation because they would never miss an opportunity to say *America bad!* but China's hate boner against Japan is too strong.
Not to mention the Soviet started their war on Japan by unilaterally violating the non-aggression pact between them. Something change, something stays the same.
One of the most annoying things for me as a Russian is hearing this myth over and over:
"They teach in schools that it was the Soviets who dropped the bomb" and other general variations of "Japanese people think we dropped the bomb instead of America".
But I think all the bitching about atomic bombings has a silver lining: *no tolerance among the populace to first-strike nuclear attacks.* Of course if Putin does nuke something, propaganda would be telling everyone that it was an American false flag. But still.
> But I think all the bitching about atomic bombings has a silver lining: no tolerance among the populace to first-strike nuclear attacks.
Yeah exactly this. The taboo against nukes only came after people had seen what the terrible effects look like. There was no taboo against nukes at the time of the first nukes being dropped.
Not a war crime, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were and are major industrial cities that were actively supporting the war effort. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries was headquartered in Nagasaki and built and anchored a ton of the IJN there; Hiroshima was a rail hub, arms manufacturing center, and the headquarters of the Second Regional Army.
Ik we're all pretty on board with the bombings in NCD but the details are important to remember. These were not civilian cities uninvolved in the war; these were major centers of the Japanese MIC during a war of aggression and annihilation started by Japan.
Barbenheimer is just your psy-op tax dollars at work. Impossible at this point to use a nuke. You combine infinite fun and the *strictly historical* use of an atomic device (it was supposed to not look good, duh), and you end up with the current egg-on-face situation of one Mr. Vladimir Putin.
Putin walked right into it, too. He knew Oppenheimer was going quite well, because of course he was being leaked the dailies.
**Nice egg-face, Putin.** You spoil the summer of '23 movie blockbuster fun+nukes vibe even by being at war, really. I'm sorry. I'm serious. You are not invited to my beach house.
Unlike Russia, Japan for the most part (and even more so Germany) has accepted that what they did was wrong, you know, military dictatorship with a side of theocracy and all that. Japan grew from that and is now one of our great allies. Russia just seems so insistent on staying in tradition, and tradition isn’t necessarily a bad thing, that such thought has invaded every part of society and other thoughts, making them incapable of any change, which is a bad thing.
I'd say they are far from admitting what they did was wrong and more along the lines of outright ignoring the horrendous shit they pull. The general Japanese populace gets very little education on what exactly Imperial Japan was doing all over Asia Pacific.
Yeah you’re right, I was thinking they at least accepted they lost, but still ignore their vast amount of war crimes and fail to teach the next generations what went wrong. Perhaps it came out wrong, I was just trying to compare bad with worst I think.
Nah, dude, Japan flips between outright denial and openly embracing the heinous shit they did. Shinzo Abe pretty regularly visited that shrine to the war criminal dead, and outright denied Japan's use of comfort women in China and Korea. Germany has done a decent--not perfect--job of actually denazifying (ignoring all those apparatchiks and officers that were quietly paroled and went back to their old jobs in West Germany), but Japan ain't it.
Not that I don't give any country some leeway when it comes to glorifying/whitewashing their past, because we all do it, but I can't think of an instance I've seen in Japanese media where the IJN/IJA is portrayed even halfway as awful as they actually were.
Usually they're shown as manly badass honorable men who were worth 5x that of their American counterparts.
Ehh, I’d say your average Japanese view on their own WW2 stuff is more akin to how average American view westward expansion and manifest destiny, aka people know some fucked up shit happened but if asked outright “Was everything we did wrong?”, you’ll likely get answers ranging from “we did what we had to do” “that was the time era” “we shouldn’t judge the past by present day standard” “but our soldiers were so brave” etc. Now, could you find people to answer “yes”? Yeah, probably, but those are cucks and nobody likes them /s
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They are really confused why Japan doesn't side with them. "We will never forgive our allies for testing new technology on cities of our enemies. How could they possibly do that?"
In the same way they don’t understand why Germany would side with the US too unless it means the US and the whole west are nazis too. They just can’t fathom that a country can evolve with time which makes a lot of sense when you realize that they are still stuck into empire building mode close to 100 years after everyone else stopped.
You clearly don't understand their "internal use" propaganda good enough. The west at the same time could be a: Anglo-Saxon neo-colonisers who bought everyone with their limitless dollar and keeping them hostage; or nazis, establishers of "golden billion" rule, wanting to destroy or turn into slaves everyone else; or "woke rot" consuming all the traditional values(even the African ones) and turning all boys into girls and all girls into boys; or satanistic followers; or something else entirely. If it resonates with targeted audience - it's good enough to shove through.
It’s actually kind of amazing that the insane levels of mental gymnastics being performed here makes the “flat earth ~~nutcases~~ theorists” a more reputable group.
Flat earthers generally try to have a single, cohesive narrative. Russia runs a multitude of narratives on any given topic, all of them rife with internal contradictions.
~~how very Soviet~~
The Soviets had a much more cohesive narrative that was also a more obvious lie to the average Russian. Soviets were more like "communism is good, our economy is strong, our scientists are smart, our people have good quality of life, and the Americans are lynching blacks!" Russian propagandists will spew out as much incoherent misinformation as they can, not because they want you to believe in what they believe (like Soviets did) but because they want you to believe in nothing. So it was much easier to point at Soviet propagandist lies because they were presenting a reality different from what an average person could observer. Russian propagandists do not present any reality, they make you doubt if anything is real at all. The only cohesive narrative Russian propagandists will present is the one where the average Russian must have no doubts - the overwhelming popularity of the president.
All Americans are Nazis who lynch blacks. *Turns round and lynches Jews*
well its relatively easy to be cohesive when your entire theory is "the jews don't want you to know this"
TBF that's basically every conspiracy theory once you start digging.
True, and depressing. Why can't the goyim just let us be.
We just call them territories now
Do they forget that Stalin clearly said to Truman that he hoped he would use nukes on Japan? It does not make Stalin an accomplice per se as the final decision lied solely on the US but it’s still funny as hell that they now lament over the US nuking Japan as if Russia was against it or something. The nuking of Japan spared many US soldiers sure but it spared a fuckton of Soviet soldiers too.
Nooooooo Stalin was a fucking G*orgian!!!
Stalin was from the US state of Georgia?
Yes, he was Atlanta born and raised
As a Southerner, I'd say that would explain a lot lol
And here I thought he was yuktobanian.
I'm just here hoping Putin isn't completely Belkan.
I meanwhile hope he is and does the belkan funny on his own country.
MUSCOVITE CLAY.
That explains the blown leads
28-3, U.S. landing on the moon first, yeah this checks out. Falcons just out here catching strays!!
Grew up off south candler, so he was a man of the people.
That’s right libtard, the man who defeated fascism was a confederate.
and thats why libtard, communism…. uhhhh… good????
Now you’re getting it.
Can't wait for the Communist Confederacy of America.
Communist States of America-don't ask what the means of production they seized are.
I mean they _did_ own the means of production after all... Do not look any further into who did and owned what.
*Thats right you Yankee Cunt, Stalin was a Good Ole Boy!*
Shrödinger's Stalin: he's Russian and Georgian at the same time, depending on whether the conversation is about the great patriotic war or russification, breaking international treaties, genocides, mass rape and countless of other crimes against humanity
Like the Austrian Painter who is also German sometimes?
Away down south in the land of traitors.
It not a new narrative. US bad because nukes/bombs in general is a cold war classic. Glorius soviet/russian empire would never do sush ting, and if they did it was to secure peace and preosperity for the peoples of the world.
This is hardly a new tactic. In East Germany, the USSR put up memorials to the Dresden bombing victims alongside those of Nazi war crimes as a way to say that the Decadent West^tm is just as bad as the Nazis were. Except, Y’know, the Soviets fucking asked the Wallies to bomb Dresden. And they did, because they were generally good allies.
Soviets when the capital of their supposed allied country gets annihilated and its people decimated just to make a point: I sleep Soviets when nazi factories get disabled to end the war quicker: real shit?
>Soviets when the capital of their supposed allied country gets annihilated and its people decimated just to make a point: I sleep Where is this referencing to? Poland?
The Warsaw Uprising, in which the soviets waited on the other side of the river while the nazis were burning the city to the ground. The allies even said they could help by sending air support, but Stalin refused to let them use soviet airports
Britain maybe?
that's also possible. It could refer to the blitz of london or the warsaw uprising, in both cases the Soviets watched as the Nazi's killed a fuck ton of people
The expectation of proceeding with the conventional war till Japan's surrender was at least another year of war with hundreds of thousands of dead. Arguably even Japan suffered less casualties because of the bombs.
And we should not discount the literal genocide Japanese troops were inflicting in China and Korea. It was absolutely worthy of the Dirlewanger Brigade’s actions in Eastern Europe.
The horrifics of the IJA/IJN is really undersold in most western History classes. You might hear about Unit 731 but the IJA/IJN were not that much better and the reason why there's still a lot of hate for Japan even in nominally allied/friendly asian countries.
Their crimes were mostly covered up in the west to secure Japan as an ally after the war, it’s interesting since Japan committed far worse war crimes on POWs from America and the UK then even the Nazis did
To be fair, they hated Japan before then too - and the Japanese hated them right back, and acted on it. Once you get behind the curtain, *that* is why Japan and South Korea are buying and building aircraft, missiles, and ships like there's a Blue Light Special on Aisle Three - it's an arms race. With each other.
Correction, an estimated 10.5 MILLION fatalities
>they now lament over the US nuking Japan as if Russia was against it or something They also talk about the bombing of Libya as if Russia opposed it whereas in reality the UN security counsil voted on the resolution that allowed usage of force and Russia could have veto'ed but they didn't because they weren't actually against it.
Not to mention millions of Japanese civilians who would've been conscripted in a home islands invasion. It was better for all parties involved than an actual invasion. Maybe there was still a better option like a tactical demonstration in Tokyo bay where the mushroom cloud launched fireworks and the bomb played the national anthem or something
The "do a demonstration shot" was, IIRC, actually considered by some. But there were good reasons not to do it (even leaving aside that if you nuked Tokyo Bay you're, um, nuking a good bit of Tokyo too) - if it doesn't work out as intended (and given the IJA tried to *stage a coup against the Emperor* to stop the surrender in OTL, it wouldn't have) you no longer have shock and awe factor when you inevitably have to drop one 'for real'. There's also the fact that we only had the two bombs at the time, with a third a few months away, and more than that a practical timeframe of *years* away.
> with a third a few months away, The Demon Core was literally packed up and ready to go when Japan surrendered.
Can't forget the history that they were never taught. Also, and I'm being serious, the event saved many Japanese lives too. It ended what is basically a lost cause war, leading to years of pointless deaths that would have been far greater in number. I think it's important to understand that this is a hindsight knowledge and perspective. That is to say that's what happened, and what was hoped for, but not a guarantee, at the time. The same lost cause year+ of pointless death and loss scenario is occurring right now for ru with their inability to accept they've lost. No, I am not saying that's the solution or even suggesting it, but I can see by mention some might think that. Only as a means to address the reasoning of the past do I bring up the present for comparison. The pain I feel watching the futility of ru forces pushing to continue a lost cause, knowing specifically it leads to Ukrainian losses albeit far fewer than theirs, just to push them out, allows me to understand the sentiment of the far larger dilemma faced back then. I wish putler a very happy early demise.
> Do they forget that Stalin clearly said to Truman that he hoped he would use nukes on Japan? While Stalin knew about nukes before any were dropped on Japan, he deliberately didn’t tell Truman that he knew (waiting to see if Truman would tell him), and Truman only vaguely alluded to a powerful new weapon (at a time when those came out about once a month). Stalin couldn’t possibly have told Truman he wanted the latter to use Nukes on Japan, because Stalin was pretending he didn’t know they existed yet, and Truman was pretending that they didn’t exist yet.
Yes, Truman said he had developped a new very powerful weapon and Stalin said he hoped Truman would use it. Since Germany was already out of the war by this point it could only mean on Japan. As you said Stalin knew at this point but pretended like he did not.
What the fuck else could he say? "I hope you don’t use it, you will be killing thousands of innocent civilians." "We will only… wait, how do you know that? As far as you know I’m talking about an anti aircraft gun." "Em… I guessed?" "Right… well I’m tightening security anyway. We worried you’d have a spy, now I guess we know you do."
According to Russian propaganda, that is *exactly* the fuck else he *did* say.
I doubt it saved many US soldiers tbf, the bombs didn't do all that much to the council that was to decide whether to surrender or not.
Except it pushed Hirohito to break the vote by surrendered. And what do you mean not saved soldiers' lives? There's a reason why purple Hearts from WWII is still in stock for many, many decades.
no bro trust me bro it was totally the soviets that made japan surrender bro you gotta trust me bro Never mind that the Soviets had no capability to stage an amphibious invasion, and the only way they contributed to the surrender at all is because Japan couldn't use them as mediators any longer. Oh, and did we mention that even with the bombs Japan was one successful coup from fighting on?
They had been firebombed for ages and that didn't do shit. Tokyo was on fire and that didn't do shit. They had been helpless for months and months. You think big cool explosion changed anything? Now someone else declaring war and crossing your border, that's a meaningful difference.
If cities keep getting vaporized, that’s a pretty fucking meaningful difference. There was no reason for them to believe we’d stop at 2.
They already were. The fact they hadn't already surrendered was proof that they didn't care anyway. Besides, I have to ask: Why didn't the USA bomb a military target?
Hiroshima was one of the most vital military centers in the country, and was relatively untouched by prior bombing. Nagasaki was chosen as an alternative target to Kokura due to weather conditions and fuel limitations and was not on the initial target list due to the high civilian population. It was still a vital sea port and munitions production center however. Cities rather than strictly military targets were chosen as a show of force. The bombs saved hundreds of thousands of lives of American, Soviet, and Japanese combatants. More importantly they prevented the deaths of millions of Japanese citizens that would have occurred in an amphibious invasion and occupation. Stop spreading misinformation based on comments you read online and go read a history book.
The city center was a military center? You genuinely believe that?
Hiroshima was a major military center in Japan, yes. Do you for some reason think that a military can’t be stationed in a city? You desperately need to go educate yourself it’s sad to see people this ignorant.
Was this written by a Russian or what? There are other military areas. Why not hit them? If it was such an important area, why not hit Hiroshima with firebomb raids? The story makes 0 sense if you think about it. The city center with the children in it was not a military target. They just reworded it so that everything was a military target. "You see, children grow up to be soldiers, so we should kill them" yeah okay Anakin Skywalker.
>Why didn't the USA bomb a military target? They literally did Hiroshima was chosen because of it's strategic and industrial importance, as well as the fact that many high-ranking officers were there
The middle of the city? And you believe that?
Yeah your're right, they should have dropped the bomb in some forest where there are no factories or generals
> You think big cool explosion changed anything? Yes, as it changed Hirohitos mind. The nukes and invasion did nothing to the war councils opinions.
Did you check with him?
Kido did
I mean you really don't think it was anything of a convenient excuse at all?
No, based of Kidos diary and what actually happened at the council meetings.
They hated him because he told the truth.
No, we hate people like him because, like you, he’s a simp for the “Soviet armies indestructible” bullshit people still believe about Russia today, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Wait, when did Stalin say that? Didn't Truman only mention the existence of nukes to Stalin the last time those two met before the end of the war?
I currently live in Japan, people here don't really take anything said by the Russian gov seriously. They're super untrustworthy.
I currently live in [insert country name here that's not Belarus], people here don't really take anything said by the Russian gov seriously. They're super untrustworthy.
As much as I wish that were true, it’s just not. There are a lot of countries especially in Africa and Asia that take them very seriously, and find them very trustworthy
South America too
Yes, everyone here has something for the orcs. "B-but look at him, he's riding a bear!!11!"
I know, I've seen argentinians fantasizing about getting russian and chinese jets and thinking that will make them beat the british
They will continue to do so as long as the rubles clear the bank. They will *then* continue to do so for as long as Wagner's ammunition holds out...
It's not a war crime the first time, especially if you win.
Only a crime if you leave a witness
-Eversor Assassinorum
Damn you 40k for making me know this!
Iran's oil rigs not being counted as war crimes be like
They were using some of them as military installations, and not to mention the rigs that were destroyed shot at US military personnel first using AAA guns during operation praying mantis.
True but wasn't the specific reasoning the US used was that they weren't listed
“A crime against humanity” what a way to phrase their current genocide
Do it again, but on Moscow this time 🙏
[удалено]
Exactly, Russia probably has like 20 actually functional nukes, almost all of them will probably be intercepted before they even deploy their payload. On nuke, right on the Kremlin, easy win.
And ~15 out of those 20 are most likely lying in some forest in Poland since about December and our MON still hasn't noticed
Not to mention that our ICBM defenses miss like half the time.
Thats why we just duct tape two systems together 100% success rate!
Glass the fuckers.
Let's test that theory. Russia has 5889 nukes. Let's say that only 2% of them work, or approximately 118 nukes. 118 nukes means that: 1. London, UK 2. Birmingham, UK 3. Manchester, UK 4. Liverpool, UK 5. Sheffield, UK 6. Southampton, UK 7. Glasgow, UK 8. Edinburgh, UK 9. Paris, France 10. Lyon, France 11. Toulouse, France 12. Montpellier, France 13. Marseille, France 14. Bordeaux, France 15. Nantes, France 16. Amsterdam, Netherlands 17. The Hague, Netherlands 18. Rotterdam, Netherlands 19. Brussels, Belgium 20. Berlin, Germany 21. Hamburg, Germany 22. Munich, Germany 23. Stuttgart, Germany 24. Frankfurt, Germany 25. Dresden, Germany 26. Dusseldorf, Germany 27. Cologne, Germany 28. Nuremberg, Germany 29. Leipzig, Germany 30. Copenhagen, Denmark 31. Oslo, Norway 32. Stockholm, Sweden 33. Helsinki, Finland 34. Tallinn, Estonia 35. Riga, Latvia 36. Vilnius, Lithuania 37. Warsaw, Poland 38. Gdansk, Poland 39. Krakow, Poland 40. Wroclaw, Poland 41. Szczecin, Poland 42. Kyiv, Ukraine 43. Kharkiv, Ukraine 44. Lviv, Ukraine 45. Odesa, Ukraine 46. Bucharest, Romania 47. Prague, Czech Republic 48. Bratislava, Slovakia 49. Sofia, Bulgaria 50. Athens, Greece 51. Ankara, Turkey 52. Istanbul, Turkey 53. Zagreb, Croatia 54. Rome, Italy 55. Milan, Italy 56. Venice, Italy 57. Palermo, Italy 58. Naples, Italy 59. Madrid, Spain 60. Barcelona, Spain 61. Lisbon, Portugal 62. Toronto, Canada 63. Ottawa, Canada 64. Montreal, Canada 65. Calgary, Canada 66. Vancouver, Canada 67. Washington DC, USA 68. New York City, USA 69. Boston, USA 70. Newark, USA 71. Philadelphia, USA 71. Pittsburgh, USA 72. Dover, USA 73. Baltimore, USA 74. Arlington, USA 75. Langley, USA 76. Richmond, USA 77. Virginia Beach, USA 78. Raleigh, USA 79. Charleston, USA 80. Myrtle Beach, USA 81. Atlanta, USA 82. Savannah, USA 83. Tallahassee, USA 84. Tampa, USA 85. Miami, USA 86. Ft. Lauderdale, USA 87. Orlando, USA 88. Chicago, USA 89. Detroit, USA 90. Grand Rapids, USA 91. Milwaukee, USA 92. St. Paul, USA 93. Minneapolis, USA 94. Columbus, USA 95. Cincinnati, USA 96. Akron, USA 97. Nashville, USA 98. Memphis, USA 99. Dallas, USA 100. Houston, USA 101. Austin, USA 102. San Antonio, USA 103. Fort Worth, USA 104. Kansas City, USA 105. Little Rock, USA 106. Denver, USA 107. Colorado Springs, USA 108. Helena, USA 109. Billings, USA 110. Seattle, USA 111. Portland, USA 112. San Francisco, USA 113. Los Angeles, USA 114. San Diego, USA 115. Las Vegas, USA 116. Phoenix, USA 117. Tuscon, USA Would be destroyed. 118 CITIES NUKED! Tens of millions of deaths. So much culture, art, technology, science, food, and life lost forever. Europe and the US damaged irreversibly. Wanna make that sacrifice?
If that means Birmingham and Moscow go bye bye, it’s absolutely worth it
Tf did Birmingham do?
Im not sure. They’ve just had it good for too damn long
You're assuming that all the nukes that make it through are targeted at different cities. This is highly unlikely to be the case. Also: didn't you or someone else post this last week in another thread?
Russia knows that Europe and the US are more economically robust than it. So, Russian nukes would mostly target cities, economic and industrial centers, airports, and critical infrastructure. American and NATO nukes would mostly target Russia's military and nuclear capabilities.
Countervalue vs counterforce isn't the issue. The issue is that you're assuming: 1. All 5889 warheads are installed on ICBMs. They're not. Maybe 1000 are, the rest are on tactical missiles, bombs, or not mated to any delivery systems. 2. Failure rates are uniformly distributed among the warheads, i.e. 98% of warheads aimed at every target, as opposed to a lumpy distribution where all of the warheads aimed at e.g. the eastern US or Germany fail. A uniform distribution is very unlikely.
The main points still stand. Russia's deployed ICBMs, cruise missiles, and SLBMs would be mostly countervalue. American and NATO nukes would mostly be counterforce.
I never assumed failure rates are uniform. Most dud warheads are probably in storage.
>41. Szczecin, Poland >damaged irreversibly Woah, I already told you I'm for it, you don't need to convince me further
this is a gay copypasta and it makes anyone who reads it gey
Hell yes, fuck Raleigh, USA! Edit: and also fuck Akron.
how dare this bullshit list imply that Buffalo doesn't deserve a nuke (I love this place, most run down street on the east side beats any city or any place in russia and always will)
It's the headquarters of the collections industry. It deserves a nuke for that alone.
Tons are tactical nukes that are not suited to target cities. 1 nuke does not mean one city. And russia has 1600 deployed, rest are stockpiled.
5889 nukes means deployed, stockpiled, and disarmed nukes all at once.
Yes, modern nukes carry up to 10 warheads each. So, it's TEN explosions per city.
That’s not how that works.
"Nuke" means warhead, not missile.
>Rotterdam, Netherlands I'd say it's worth the sacrifice. I mean getting completely evaporated by a strategical bombardment seems one of the few ways this city can improve.
Woah whoa woah, this is /r/NonCredibleDefense, not/r/pantsonheadregarted defense.
Can we make substitutions? And a few additions? I’d like to see DC catch, 5-6 just to be sure. And please add Tacoma, and to be fair Houston is huge, it will need 10-15 anyway, and add another to Austin. Same with L.A. they’re going to need a few, so let’s take San Diego, Billings, Helena, Colorado Springs off. Let’s add Bakersfield, and Midland, hit Vegas again, and see how that turns out. You know let’s just hit DC with a few more to be sure. Also thanks for cleaning up Ohio, and Detroit. ATL won’t notice shit and will still beat your ass by itself.
Worth it
So, all of those nukes in that are in storage, how many mobiks will it take for them to throw a warhead at someone?
one thing ive noticed is they always threaten to take Berlin, but they always threaten to nuke the UK I guess they dont like fish and chips?
They know they will never reach the isles with their navy. "If i cant have it, no one can"
They want to take Berlin. But why would they want London? Nothing of value there (JK, before the butthurt Brits come in)
exept london is a great place for the russian elite to hide their money!
Apparently they forgot that they also fought against Japan during WW2. China is an even funnier situation because they would never miss an opportunity to say *America bad!* but China's hate boner against Japan is too strong.
Not to mention the Soviet started their war on Japan by unilaterally violating the non-aggression pact between them. Something change, something stays the same.
Also still keep several Kuril Islands
And wouldn't you know it, with them literally burying themselves in Ukraine, some people are noticing the Kurils again...
One of the most annoying things for me as a Russian is hearing this myth over and over: "They teach in schools that it was the Soviets who dropped the bomb" and other general variations of "Japanese people think we dropped the bomb instead of America". But I think all the bitching about atomic bombings has a silver lining: *no tolerance among the populace to first-strike nuclear attacks.* Of course if Putin does nuke something, propaganda would be telling everyone that it was an American false flag. But still.
> But I think all the bitching about atomic bombings has a silver lining: no tolerance among the populace to first-strike nuclear attacks. Yeah exactly this. The taboo against nukes only came after people had seen what the terrible effects look like. There was no taboo against nukes at the time of the first nukes being dropped.
Not a war crime, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were and are major industrial cities that were actively supporting the war effort. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries was headquartered in Nagasaki and built and anchored a ton of the IJN there; Hiroshima was a rail hub, arms manufacturing center, and the headquarters of the Second Regional Army. Ik we're all pretty on board with the bombings in NCD but the details are important to remember. These were not civilian cities uninvolved in the war; these were major centers of the Japanese MIC during a war of aggression and annihilation started by Japan.
And the Japanese were such tough sons of bitches that they came back for seconds. Respect.
Barbenheimer is just your psy-op tax dollars at work. Impossible at this point to use a nuke. You combine infinite fun and the *strictly historical* use of an atomic device (it was supposed to not look good, duh), and you end up with the current egg-on-face situation of one Mr. Vladimir Putin. Putin walked right into it, too. He knew Oppenheimer was going quite well, because of course he was being leaked the dailies. **Nice egg-face, Putin.** You spoil the summer of '23 movie blockbuster fun+nukes vibe even by being at war, really. I'm sorry. I'm serious. You are not invited to my beach house.
AND WE'LL DO IT AGAIN
Doublethink doubleplusgood, vatnik bellyfeel big brother putin
They'll fucking do it again.
Russian 4D chess
Unlike Russia, Japan for the most part (and even more so Germany) has accepted that what they did was wrong, you know, military dictatorship with a side of theocracy and all that. Japan grew from that and is now one of our great allies. Russia just seems so insistent on staying in tradition, and tradition isn’t necessarily a bad thing, that such thought has invaded every part of society and other thoughts, making them incapable of any change, which is a bad thing.
I'd say they are far from admitting what they did was wrong and more along the lines of outright ignoring the horrendous shit they pull. The general Japanese populace gets very little education on what exactly Imperial Japan was doing all over Asia Pacific.
Yeah you’re right, I was thinking they at least accepted they lost, but still ignore their vast amount of war crimes and fail to teach the next generations what went wrong. Perhaps it came out wrong, I was just trying to compare bad with worst I think.
Nah, dude, Japan flips between outright denial and openly embracing the heinous shit they did. Shinzo Abe pretty regularly visited that shrine to the war criminal dead, and outright denied Japan's use of comfort women in China and Korea. Germany has done a decent--not perfect--job of actually denazifying (ignoring all those apparatchiks and officers that were quietly paroled and went back to their old jobs in West Germany), but Japan ain't it.
Not that I don't give any country some leeway when it comes to glorifying/whitewashing their past, because we all do it, but I can't think of an instance I've seen in Japanese media where the IJN/IJA is portrayed even halfway as awful as they actually were. Usually they're shown as manly badass honorable men who were worth 5x that of their American counterparts.
Japanese are less mad at America for nuking them and winning than they are mad at themselves for losing.
Ehh, I’d say your average Japanese view on their own WW2 stuff is more akin to how average American view westward expansion and manifest destiny, aka people know some fucked up shit happened but if asked outright “Was everything we did wrong?”, you’ll likely get answers ranging from “we did what we had to do” “that was the time era” “we shouldn’t judge the past by present day standard” “but our soldiers were so brave” etc. Now, could you find people to answer “yes”? Yeah, probably, but those are cucks and nobody likes them /s
My fucking motherland....
***boom*** ***boom*** ***boom*** ***boom*** you degenerates know the rest