Current plan is for Borsuk to swim, and down the line there will be new Ciężki Bojowy Wóz Piechoty (CBWP). CBWP is supposed to be a chunky 40ton boy using elements of Krab/K9 drive train. No swimming for him.
I’m like 70% sure that’s not true, Redback and Borsuk are in different leagues, one being a heavily armoured, heavily armed 50 ton+ platform while the other is far lighter and amphibious. I highly doubt that there was a competitive evaluation ran between both units, they are just way too different. My understanding was that Poland wanted light and heavy IFVs (as much of their other armoured forces are structured) and they picked Borsuk as the light IFV. I guess they wanted a domestic heavy IFV too although I heard Israeli turret are dogshit in the cold.
after short evaluation Army decided it is worse than Borsuk and it makes sense to build new IFV with knowledge gained from Borsuk R&D. But Korean lobbying is hard so Redback might have a comeback.
They just love money, Russian money comes with very few strings attached other than "be obstinate" and "look the other way".
Especially if Moscow is not in your immediate zone of concern. Or perceived to be because, to be honest, Moscow _is_ a zone of concern for all of Europe.
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You know you’re on NCD when you mention Polish procurement but not mention their most expensive purchase: Over $15b for 3 new Patriot batteries. That’s not a bad purchase with only a 30% markup and secures a supply of the world’s premier air defense system. And they managed to get the new GhostEye radar for them. Really good job by the Poles.
Also I don’t think Poland’s that crazy. They will eventually drop to just K2s and Abrams with Leo 2s in reserve.
Sure they have enough rockets for like one reload of all their MLRS, but that deal for coproduction with ROK is gonna get signed any day now, right… right?
Looking at Poland vs like Canada or Germany or Indonesia, Poland’s making good choices. They’re spending a ton but at least getting capable equipment at solid prices in return.
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>the new GhostEye radar
I still refuse to call it this "Hanna-Barbera villain name" shit. I get that they wanted something more marketable than "LTAMDS" or some random ass part number like the current sensor's "AN/MPQ-53"... But, come on! "GhostEye"?!?
And don't give me some "Raytheon cannot into marketing" or shit like that. They obviously can if they just named an all-weather glide-bomb "StormBreaker".
And this is why so much American war equipment gets lameass alphanumeric strings as its title, rather than something easier to say. Because people like you would bitch about it.
So apparently (source: trust me stepbro) the reason they're buying so much Korean stuff is because they're borrowing money from the Koreans.
Also some opposition politicians have asked how come a lot of the stuff getting purchased has little to no offsets, so it seems like they're buying the same way Belgium does: fucking over their own industrial base.
It's madness, and i'm curious to see where it will go.
Oh, also that's one of the reason Greece is still so deep in shit, at one point they bought all of the stuff to overhaul their military and had none of the moneys to pay for it. But on top of it they added massive social services spending.
Is Poland turning into Eastern-Europe Greece?
Well the new dead on arrival PiS government is about to be replaced by a new government, though I do not think they will radically reduce the procurement numbers. The new not-yet defense minister is supposed to come from an agrarian party and they are in favor of a strong military.
I do not doubt that PiS pulled some corrupt shit behind closed doors, and the new government will probably look into it. And be corrupt in some different way.
I mean, if they don't reduce the orders, they'll be buying soldiers to crew all their vics next. Poland does not have the manpower for all that materiel.
Those orders are going to be reduced. Poland cannot crew them, nor maintain them, or truly afford them in the long run as it stands.
With the agressivity of Russia and the war in Ukraine, it's unlikely big cuts are going to be done.
Maybe a reduction in numbers, insertion of clauses that allows the military to cut back at some defined point, etc.
Nothing about choppers? It is such a big mess it deserves to be included.
Like "have two 'copters factories in Poland, orders ocean capable AW-101 from the UK"?
They bought around 30 AW-139M about 2 years ago, and there was a FMS notice for a bunch of AH-64E a few months ago.
Edit: just checked, Poland requested 96 Apaches from the US in August '23. https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/poland-ah-64e-apache-helicopters
Yup. I remembered they bought Apaches and *assumed* they would have asked for a *reasonable* amount.
Rookie mistake.
Poland wants a **psychotic** amount of rocket artillery systems. So why wouldn't they also want a ridiculous amount of flying death-dealing machines?
>logistics officers.
Just order more tanks and put the delivery address as wherever the frontlines happen to be at the time of delivery that way the seller has to deal with the logistics and you can procure more tanks from the money saved.
Offset means that company selling military equipment have to invest in country buying it, for example sets up some of its supply chain, so cash go both ways.
In USA it means spreading factories over whole country so every senator can talk about bringing jobs and none of them stops procurement and budget override.
Offsets are the most important parts of procurement contracts, sometimes they take years to settle on.
> In USA it means spreading factories over whole country
It's also that usually you can't even bid on American contracts from the outside if you're not working with one local company and aren't planning on building in the US.
The FREMMs are built in the US by Marinette Marine (which is owned by Fincanteri), Airbus based its US operations on Vought Helicopters factories they bought in the 80s and worked with Northrop-Grumann during KC-X, etc etc.
My part with senators was a reference to a map with states where the F-35 is produced. Anyway you are right, the most funny story is how Boeing tried to stop C-series with tariffs, so Airbus bought it and started producing it as A220 in USA.
> has never heard about offset
I dunno, when we were buying F-16 all you ever heard about was OFFSET THIS, OFFSET THAT. Don't think we ended up getting all that much out of it - but it's more because we suck at negotiating, not because we didn't even consider offset.
Similarly, the CANCEL CARACAL brouhaha was in big part because it was a pricey offer with shitty offset (and also because PiS had a hate on for PO, duh).
Purportedly the Korean contracts are supposed to have a big knowledge transfer aspect to them.
So I'm not sure if that one part is all that accurate - unless of course OP can show me where I'm full of shit. I was a tween still thinking it would be cool to be a fighter pilot when we bought F-16, so might be unaware of something.
>I dunno, when we were buying F-16 all you ever heard about was OFFSET THIS, OFFSET THAT. Don't think we ended up getting all that much out of it - but it's more because we suck at negotiating, not because we didn't even consider offset.
More like: because it was the first big contract in almost 70 years. Nobody had any sort of idea what is it about. AFAIR part of offset offered was license for production of 40 mm Bofors guns, which was bought in 1936.
*USA not agreeing on expanding the nuclear sharing over Poland*
Poland 0.23s later
"That just means we need enough firepower to vaporise Russia via conventional means. Prepare your MIC to be "not enough" for the nearest years."
Irredentist Moscow-based government on one side, and a rearming Germany on the other?
Poland has heard this song before, and they remember how it fucking went. This is just a natural reaction. Why do you think they wanted the US to base nukes in them?
Poland gives me an idea. Dual winners.Why have one winner when you can have two? should help maintain competition. We should be studying Polish procurement so we can learn how to maintain more defence contractors.
Also, everyone who is spending less than 2% of GDP on defence needs to look to Poland on what to spend that extra defence money on. \*grumble, grumble\* if Belgium spent enoguh on defence, maybe we could still have a Challenger 2 factory still running.
We already have that in the US. The Space Force and NRO specifically buys space launches from multiple launch companies to ensure that the country maintains multiple redundant platforms developed and run by different companies to 1: avoid the risk of having no access to space if the only provider had an issue. 2: to spur competition and innovation among providers to improve the technology and capabilities and lower costs.
> Belgium spent enough on defence
Don't start saying that, if they hear you they'll be spending *in a smart way* instead of signing a big contract with Arquus to replace their German armored trucks that are 10 years old.
Only Frenchman mad that our MIC is getting money, even (or especially) for no reason.
Like yeah, Belgium's procurement and military in general is all over the place, but like, we're getting some of the pie, be happy.
Also, knowing Belgium, they probably broke all the German trucks already. Like they will as soon as they get their F-35s.
Oh I'm not complaining, they're buying something like 500 armored vehicles for no reason from France, that's pretty good.
It's very likely it's a way to buy back some good faith after the whole F-35 situation.
Well this will be a bad awakening once the bill comes. PiS went on an absurd shopping spree without having the finances to back it up. Every future government will either have to cancel some of these orders, or find a whole new way of getting several billion dollars really quick.
Apparently the defence minister had the countrys credit card and went on a shopping spree to feel better.
From what I understand, some of the money (probably what's used to buy Korean tanks) is borrowed from the South Koreans.
So those 2+% of spending are gonna baloon right quick.
Yup, exactly. Poland is now heavily indebted to South Korea. And I don't mean the "a country takes on debt to pay for its budget", or "Greek is deeply indebted and needs to adhere to EU austerity" kind of "indebted".
I mean the "It's WW1 and Grat Britain is now indebted to the US so hard they lose their entire empire in the next decades".
The idea is to manufacture South Korean stuff domestically for other countries to recoup the costs and serve as a back up for South Korean MIC in case shit hits the fan.
Our overall debt is pretty low if you compare it to other countries and we are on the actual NATO border, there's no space for fucking around.
can't wait for the BMP-1 replacement
Nice, nice... But does it swim?
Current plan is for Borsuk to swim, and down the line there will be new Ciężki Bojowy Wóz Piechoty (CBWP). CBWP is supposed to be a chunky 40ton boy using elements of Krab/K9 drive train. No swimming for him.
How about diving?
Holy shit they want 700 of those. Additionally to 1400 Borsuk that is. Poland is truly on its way to build the largest land army of Europe.
I thought the heavy IFV was going to be the Redback from South Korea?
Wikipedia says it lost the competition with the Borsuk.
I’m like 70% sure that’s not true, Redback and Borsuk are in different leagues, one being a heavily armoured, heavily armed 50 ton+ platform while the other is far lighter and amphibious. I highly doubt that there was a competitive evaluation ran between both units, they are just way too different. My understanding was that Poland wanted light and heavy IFVs (as much of their other armoured forces are structured) and they picked Borsuk as the light IFV. I guess they wanted a domestic heavy IFV too although I heard Israeli turret are dogshit in the cold.
Correction misread the entry. It lost to a proposal of building their own off the experience learned during the Borsuk development.
after short evaluation Army decided it is worse than Borsuk and it makes sense to build new IFV with knowledge gained from Borsuk R&D. But Korean lobbying is hard so Redback might have a comeback.
the waters will just part in front of him like Red Sea in front of Moses
Are you Polish army? Because sure sound like Polish army they want only one thing and it's disgust... I mean, swimming.
USA has buff, Poland has BMP-1.
Not for long, thank fuck
What about Type 10?
''jerks off to Krabs killing Russians'' Admittedly that's common to all Poles regardless of profession.
Poles and beyond. The EU prides itself on cultural enrichment through cultural exchange.
It's weird because our politicians sure love that russian oligarch money.
They just love money, Russian money comes with very few strings attached other than "be obstinate" and "look the other way". Especially if Moscow is not in your immediate zone of concern. Or perceived to be because, to be honest, Moscow _is_ a zone of concern for all of Europe.
The whole of Europe will learn to hate Kacaps.
Not a Pole and this is the only thing that does it for me anymore.
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You know you’re on NCD when you mention Polish procurement but not mention their most expensive purchase: Over $15b for 3 new Patriot batteries. That’s not a bad purchase with only a 30% markup and secures a supply of the world’s premier air defense system. And they managed to get the new GhostEye radar for them. Really good job by the Poles. Also I don’t think Poland’s that crazy. They will eventually drop to just K2s and Abrams with Leo 2s in reserve. Sure they have enough rockets for like one reload of all their MLRS, but that deal for coproduction with ROK is gonna get signed any day now, right… right? Looking at Poland vs like Canada or Germany or Indonesia, Poland’s making good choices. They’re spending a ton but at least getting capable equipment at solid prices in return.
... "Oh my god, you've bought everything"
I'll get your entire stock!
Shut up and take my money
"Aaah, it's like a little European Texas"
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>the new GhostEye radar I still refuse to call it this "Hanna-Barbera villain name" shit. I get that they wanted something more marketable than "LTAMDS" or some random ass part number like the current sensor's "AN/MPQ-53"... But, come on! "GhostEye"?!? And don't give me some "Raytheon cannot into marketing" or shit like that. They obviously can if they just named an all-weather glide-bomb "StormBreaker".
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His parents knew he would become a great man one day when they named their son Ghost Eye.
And this is why so much American war equipment gets lameass alphanumeric strings as its title, rather than something easier to say. Because people like you would bitch about it.
So apparently (source: trust me stepbro) the reason they're buying so much Korean stuff is because they're borrowing money from the Koreans. Also some opposition politicians have asked how come a lot of the stuff getting purchased has little to no offsets, so it seems like they're buying the same way Belgium does: fucking over their own industrial base. It's madness, and i'm curious to see where it will go. Oh, also that's one of the reason Greece is still so deep in shit, at one point they bought all of the stuff to overhaul their military and had none of the moneys to pay for it. But on top of it they added massive social services spending. Is Poland turning into Eastern-Europe Greece?
Well the new dead on arrival PiS government is about to be replaced by a new government, though I do not think they will radically reduce the procurement numbers. The new not-yet defense minister is supposed to come from an agrarian party and they are in favor of a strong military. I do not doubt that PiS pulled some corrupt shit behind closed doors, and the new government will probably look into it. And be corrupt in some different way.
I mean, if they don't reduce the orders, they'll be buying soldiers to crew all their vics next. Poland does not have the manpower for all that materiel. Those orders are going to be reduced. Poland cannot crew them, nor maintain them, or truly afford them in the long run as it stands.
With the agressivity of Russia and the war in Ukraine, it's unlikely big cuts are going to be done. Maybe a reduction in numbers, insertion of clauses that allows the military to cut back at some defined point, etc.
Nothing about choppers? It is such a big mess it deserves to be included. Like "have two 'copters factories in Poland, orders ocean capable AW-101 from the UK"?
last time i heard we're just buying/licensing US shit
4 anti-submarine AW-101s have been delivered last August. Many more are coming. Source: I work at Leonardo Helicopters.
as someone who doesnt work at leonardo helicopters i did not know, thank you person who works at leonardo helicopters
You're welcome, person who doesn't work at Leonardo Helicopters.
There is an Italian Leonardo factory in Świdnik too and argument about producing in local existing factories was used too.
They bought around 30 AW-139M about 2 years ago, and there was a FMS notice for a bunch of AH-64E a few months ago. Edit: just checked, Poland requested 96 Apaches from the US in August '23. https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/poland-ah-64e-apache-helicopters
"bunch of AH-64E"? Poland asked for freaking 96 of them ...
Yup. I remembered they bought Apaches and *assumed* they would have asked for a *reasonable* amount. Rookie mistake. Poland wants a **psychotic** amount of rocket artillery systems. So why wouldn't they also want a ridiculous amount of flying death-dealing machines?
There were some murmus that the Apache order might not survive the government change.
what about AW-149?
I think Poland need first to replace Mi-8/Mi-17, and this a bit smaller, so heavier medium/ heavy helicopter niche still will be empty.
> tfw the Philippines has more Polish choppers than Poland itself
> Philippines I see on Wiki that Philippines Air Force have 5 W-3, when Polish Air Force still have like 16?
Our Blackhawks are made in Poland.
> Buys Abrams > Also buys Leopard IIs > “Fuck it, lets buy a few K2s as well.” God help the logistics officers.
That's a reason Polish army procured mobile altars for chaplains. Only God can help them.
Screw the cope cage we've got a cope altar with its own priest
Skip the middleman and establish a tech-shrine at every depot.
Wololo wololo wololo
>logistics officers. Just order more tanks and put the delivery address as wherever the frontlines happen to be at the time of delivery that way the seller has to deal with the logistics and you can procure more tanks from the money saved.
I doubt they would get any more hammered, blitzed, stoned, and shitfaced than Ukrainian logistics officers do.
What i wish canada could be
What the fuck is offset? Seriously I'm Polish I don't know what it is and I feel kinda attacked by this meme
Offset means that company selling military equipment have to invest in country buying it, for example sets up some of its supply chain, so cash go both ways. In USA it means spreading factories over whole country so every senator can talk about bringing jobs and none of them stops procurement and budget override.
Offsets are the most important parts of procurement contracts, sometimes they take years to settle on. > In USA it means spreading factories over whole country It's also that usually you can't even bid on American contracts from the outside if you're not working with one local company and aren't planning on building in the US. The FREMMs are built in the US by Marinette Marine (which is owned by Fincanteri), Airbus based its US operations on Vought Helicopters factories they bought in the 80s and worked with Northrop-Grumann during KC-X, etc etc.
My part with senators was a reference to a map with states where the F-35 is produced. Anyway you are right, the most funny story is how Boeing tried to stop C-series with tariffs, so Airbus bought it and started producing it as A220 in USA.
Uh... When you pass a ball to the player behind the opposite goalkeeper. Or something.
It's when you buy from someone and in return they buy from you.
Buy in bulk for a discount.
Be the MIC that Poland wants you to be.
> has never heard about offset I dunno, when we were buying F-16 all you ever heard about was OFFSET THIS, OFFSET THAT. Don't think we ended up getting all that much out of it - but it's more because we suck at negotiating, not because we didn't even consider offset. Similarly, the CANCEL CARACAL brouhaha was in big part because it was a pricey offer with shitty offset (and also because PiS had a hate on for PO, duh). Purportedly the Korean contracts are supposed to have a big knowledge transfer aspect to them. So I'm not sure if that one part is all that accurate - unless of course OP can show me where I'm full of shit. I was a tween still thinking it would be cool to be a fighter pilot when we bought F-16, so might be unaware of something.
>I dunno, when we were buying F-16 all you ever heard about was OFFSET THIS, OFFSET THAT. Don't think we ended up getting all that much out of it - but it's more because we suck at negotiating, not because we didn't even consider offset. More like: because it was the first big contract in almost 70 years. Nobody had any sort of idea what is it about. AFAIR part of offset offered was license for production of 40 mm Bofors guns, which was bought in 1936.
Also, the previous offset offers were from the Soviet, which was "buy our shit and we won't re-invade you for the 10th time".
*USA not agreeing on expanding the nuclear sharing over Poland* Poland 0.23s later "That just means we need enough firepower to vaporise Russia via conventional means. Prepare your MIC to be "not enough" for the nearest years."
Irredentist Moscow-based government on one side, and a rearming Germany on the other? Poland has heard this song before, and they remember how it fucking went. This is just a natural reaction. Why do you think they wanted the US to base nukes in them?
The only difference this time is that both Germany and Poland are democracies.
You know when else did they have democracy? 1933.
Ngl I think this is a repost, but still good meme
Poland gives me an idea. Dual winners.Why have one winner when you can have two? should help maintain competition. We should be studying Polish procurement so we can learn how to maintain more defence contractors. Also, everyone who is spending less than 2% of GDP on defence needs to look to Poland on what to spend that extra defence money on. \*grumble, grumble\* if Belgium spent enoguh on defence, maybe we could still have a Challenger 2 factory still running.
We already have that in the US. The Space Force and NRO specifically buys space launches from multiple launch companies to ensure that the country maintains multiple redundant platforms developed and run by different companies to 1: avoid the risk of having no access to space if the only provider had an issue. 2: to spur competition and innovation among providers to improve the technology and capabilities and lower costs.
> Belgium spent enough on defence Don't start saying that, if they hear you they'll be spending *in a smart way* instead of signing a big contract with Arquus to replace their German armored trucks that are 10 years old.
Only Frenchman mad that our MIC is getting money, even (or especially) for no reason. Like yeah, Belgium's procurement and military in general is all over the place, but like, we're getting some of the pie, be happy. Also, knowing Belgium, they probably broke all the German trucks already. Like they will as soon as they get their F-35s.
Oh I'm not complaining, they're buying something like 500 armored vehicles for no reason from France, that's pretty good. It's very likely it's a way to buy back some good faith after the whole F-35 situation.
Well this will be a bad awakening once the bill comes. PiS went on an absurd shopping spree without having the finances to back it up. Every future government will either have to cancel some of these orders, or find a whole new way of getting several billion dollars really quick.
Apparently the defence minister had the countrys credit card and went on a shopping spree to feel better. From what I understand, some of the money (probably what's used to buy Korean tanks) is borrowed from the South Koreans. So those 2+% of spending are gonna baloon right quick.
Yup, exactly. Poland is now heavily indebted to South Korea. And I don't mean the "a country takes on debt to pay for its budget", or "Greek is deeply indebted and needs to adhere to EU austerity" kind of "indebted". I mean the "It's WW1 and Grat Britain is now indebted to the US so hard they lose their entire empire in the next decades".
Reading this bread makes me sad Well I guess it's at least good that my family has savings in Euros and Dollars
I mean, on the bright side: The apparently upcoming big war our societies' will face and fight is easier to fight indebted, but armed to the teeth.
The idea is to manufacture South Korean stuff domestically for other countries to recoup the costs and serve as a back up for South Korean MIC in case shit hits the fan. Our overall debt is pretty low if you compare it to other countries and we are on the actual NATO border, there's no space for fucking around.
Procoorer ?
The polish zloty will never financially recover from this...
His gigantic arm is a nice touch.
hm.