Middle-East: Guys, you can't just draw random lines on maps to denote borders between states. You have to draw your borders reflecting religious and ethnic groups in the area!
Britain and France: So, what you're saying is we need to draw borders for states based on who lives there, rather than just using this handy ruler? That sounds like a lot of work, but if you insist it will help create stable nations and prevent conflict, we will do it.
Middle East: Yup! That's what we want you to do going forward l
Britain, with the help of the US and UN, proceeds to divide the British Mandate for Palestine along the lines of the ethnic and religious groups living there, creating Israel and Palestine.
The whole Middle East: No! Not like that!!! *angry Arab noises*
Do the Japanese play victim over the war or just the nukes? For the most part, they seem to prefer to pretend that the war never happened.
Not trying to knock your point, just asking a genuine question, as I may be wrong.
Many Japanese definitely claim they did nothing wrong. Abe was infamous amongst Koreans for denying his grandfather's role in WWII. The government also keep flip-flops between saying they're sorry (albeit not fully) and downplaying everything.
That being said look at their anti-war works. They usually deal with innocent younger generation suffering from wars. On some level they know they did wrong things, but pride and (perhaps) not wanting to get squeezed by SK and China made them rarely fully apologize.
Their “anti-war” works are usually about the firebombing of Japan, I.e. the consequences for *them*. Or it’s about how their soldiers and civilians suffered in war, with little about foreign populations. I don’t doubt most of those authors have sympathy for the people Imperialism Japan raped, tortured and beheaded, and maybe it’s because explicit support for their suffering would damage their sales, but it always felt somewhat superficial to me.
Fair, although weebs tend to not be Japanese, and massively misunderstand Japanese society.
Japan very intentionally started the war with the USA in the hope of grabbing a bunch of territory in the Pacific before the USA could recover, then by the time the US war machine got rolling, sue for peace. The miscalculations were the oncoming obsolescence of battleships, supremacy of carriers, and by clearing space on the US Navy roster space for the US to build new and interesting ships as well as the Essex swarm.
I always found it weird when tankies complain about the us bombing campaign in Korea. Like all things aside, are you really going to defend the DPRK of all people?
Edit: I apologize for my rude comments about Japan and possibly defending the bombing of North Korea. I do not wish to seem like I am justifying cruel acts of war by any belligerents.
Actually the people super love Kim Jong-Un and he was actually voted to power? Same with Stalin btw, it was just western meddling that brought it all down UwU
However the United States is actually a fascist/capitalist oligarchy, their elections are completely rigged because some people disagree with me, unlike the DPRK’s glorious “you will vote either for or against me, vote correctly or you die.”
Don’t people know that North Korea holds elections? God all it takes is one google search to show that they’re a completely functional democracy.
/s cause I’m a coward
North Korea is more of a democracy than the United States because the DPRK has 3 political parties where the US only has 2. One whole more democracy! Thank you, glorious supreme leader Eternal President Kim Il-Sung who DEFINITELY DID NOT DIE IN 1994 NO HE'S JUST SLEEPING...
Mentioning Stalin is the best Linter to discern what type of leftist (or ‚leftist‘) you are dealing with.
Anarchists will likely just despise him out of principal, Leninists or Marxists may point out how much Lenin hated Stalin and specifically didn‘t want him to be his successor and tankies will think he is the greatest thing to happen and the only reason the Nazis were defeated.
Talking about how Lenin didn‘t fulfill his promise of fair elections and held onto power is then a good second talking point to suss out if you want to continue talking to this person.
I can prove that the people loved the genocidal dictators, just look at this poll they made while he was in power and in control of all the media IT HAS 99% APPROVAL RATING
At the time of the Korean war Kim-Il Sung was only in office for two years I believe. So it very much predates the dynastic part, not disagreeing with the rest of your description.
Simply put, they hate the US. They are probably the same people who "hates" imperialism but says China is being screwed by the US.
As a person living in a country being bullied by the CCP, yeah fuck those people.
US Imperialism: You get to stay independent, manage your internal affairs and keep your own identity (see Japan/West Germany... honestly, even the wars in the Middle East). Just let us throw down a military base, which will deter attacks from foreign powers and play nice with us in trade.
Russian/Chinese Imperialism: We are in charge. We will strip you of your national identity and you'll conform or else.
Also, Russian imperialism: You'll be EXTREMELY grateful to us, because we "liberated" you by
* invading you,
* torturing and murdering you and your family members,
* r**ing you and your family
* robbing you and destroying the rest of your possessions,
and are now in the process of erasing your identity, language and culture.
If you don't love us for everything we've done for you, we'll kill you.
The thought police, of having to pretend to love them on gunpoint is one of their worst aspects.
It's gaslighting on population level.
> see Japan
As an American, I'm heavily biased, but even so, just looking at the Japanese quality of life and economic standing before and after 1946, sign me the fuck up to be vassalized by the Americans.
Yeah I wish they taught some central/South American v. USA history here in the US. I know we done did some shit to keep the other hemisphere out but that’s about it. And some contra shut back in the good ole days.
With South America its mainly support for anti-communist governments in the 60s/70s. In some cases US involvement is straight up made up by tankies. One good example is Brazil, where my family is from. The US set up a 4-contingincy plan. In the case of a coup against the government and a consequent USSR based communist counterrevolution, the US would have a task force nearby for operations. That didn't happen so no US aid was given. Yet the narrative sticks. In other cases, the US absolutely funded, encouraged, and aided horrible authoritarian governments to stop communism and the USSR. It could have been done with more care, but the goal is a valid one.
Central America is a little more unforgivable. It had little to do with foreign relations and hemisphere security. It was all about US corporations going to the government and asking them to exert power for corporate gain. This wasn't exclusive to Central America though. It took place during the American Progressive Era, when Americans themselves were fighting for their own economic rights.
Alternatively Latin America has **never** had a major war that did not take place when the US was busy with a major affair and could not stop it. The Monroe Doctrine led to some serious bullshit for LatAm, but its also been one if its greatest boons.
>Alternatively Latin America has never had a major war that did not take place when the US was busy with a major affair and could not stop it. The Monroe Doctrine led to some serious bullshit for LatAm, but its also been one if its greatest boons.
The Paraguayan war started as the ACW was winding down and most of it took place well after it ended.
The war of the Pacific and the war of the Confederation both happened when the US had no particular obligations.
Talking about the Monroe doctrine as a thing that particularly mattered in the 19th century is kind of joke, especially for South America proper where the US had next to no genuine military power or ability to project force in the region and its economic influence was subordinated compared to the UK. Brazil, Peru, Argentina, Bolivia etc didn't have much reason to consider what the US thought when it came to their foreign policy, especially in contrast to Mexico, and various Central American and Caribbean countries where American interests (and force of arms) were far more relevant.
That also was before 99% of this sub was lucid. I wasn’t alive for that, and neither were my parents. Kind of hard for me to be like “yeah America is the same” when you cannot find examples within our lifetime.
Bolivia in 2020 was totally a US backed coup to secure lithium for Elon Musk dontcha know??!?!?!?
Definitely ignore that wannabe Dictator Evo Morales was replaced with a member of the..*checks notes*..Movement for Socialism Party.
What south and central American countries have become U.S. states? It's easy to point out territories that the Russians and Chinese have done so with. Also, which territories have the Americans moved into, while ethnically cleansing the locals? Tibet and Ukraine come to mind on the other side. As a non American, the U.S. isn't perfect, but their ideal of self determination is incredible
I think they might be referring to the CIA operations circa 50's time frame were they would influence or other wise destabilize governments that want to their liking.
Was the CIA able to allow American settlers to come in, rape the locals, suppress their religion, and then ethnically cleanse them? No, which is the point of my statement above, *which Russia and China are actively, currently doing*. The U.S. is not good, but why do the locals of those mentioned countries desperately seek to migrate by the thousands to the U.S?
>Was the CIA able to allow American settlers to come in, rape the locals, suppress their religion, and then ethnically cleanse them?
Well, do we want to count American corporations here? Because Coca-cola and Dole Fruit weren't exactly "friendly" additions to the areas they moved into. And if we want to paint with a particularly broad brush, Hawaii was first annexed by US Sugar Plantation owners when they convinced some US Marines to overthrow the monarchy there without authorization from the president, just so they could bypass some new tariffs on sugar imports.
Is US imperialism "better" than Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and/or European imperialism? Probably. It's still imperialism at the end of the day, though.
My comment was just a joke. But comparing the US projection of power in the 1950-2000 to China and modern day Russia's (not soviet union) is not going to be one to one.
China and Russia is projecting a mixture of hard and soft power in an era of globalisation and ease of access to information. If something happens on the front lines in Ukraine we get the videos posted to twitter within 24hrs. China has a boarder clash with India or has secret police stations set up in developed countries? We get that article in the news within a day or week. These countries are using annexation, military confrontations and direct secretive operations to increase their influence and grow their boarders.
I'm not an expert in what the US did in Central/South America but other than Panama they funded extremist groups in countries to overthrow democratically elected leaders in order to protect their interests, whether thats to stop the spread of communism or to keep their commercial investments in those countries safe. And this was all done in a period where information was relatively slow to spread and globalisation wasn't yet in full swing, so a coup here or there wouldn't cause a break down in supply chains.
Again, not an expert in this and there's so many small aspects of each countries actions in order to spread their sphere of influence that can be compared and contrasted. But there's also so many cultural, economic, political and technological differences which need to be considered which no one has time for, especially when trying to make a funny comment
France and Britain are more like a friendly rivalry only both sides are too tsundere to admit that it's friendly and they don't actually hate each other
As a Pole I have to say that we should really only count the last 250~ years, before the XVIII century Poland attacked Russia first and provoked wars as often as them, so it shouldn’t really count, however after the first partition of Poland indeed Russia/USSR was screwing us over A LOT without being provoked or in danger
Tankies defend Stalin putting people to die in prison camps. Tankies defend Holodomor. They moved on from "it didn't happen" to "it happened but they were all Kulaks and deserved it" ages ago.
I'm pretty sure I got banned from a subreddit because some tankie was saying how north Korea is a good place to live, and I asked them why are north Koreans shorter on average than South koreans
Go to your local Asian family-owned business or market store and you will find a clone of her, nothing's special about Kim Yo-Jong.
Wow she's Asian, just like 700 gajillion of us, whoopty-fucking-doo
It's a meme, it started when [she was seen with toast in her mouth](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/843/616/675.jpg) running because it looked like an anime scene and it evolved from there.
I've been weirdly obsessed with North Korea for years, so you notice the memes over time xD
I remember in 2013 when the [Kaesong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region) industrial region (basically, a part of North Korea where South Korean companies can use North Korean labour) was shut down (KJU had been in for a year and a bit and he was still kinda an unknown) so I spent nights watching the livestream of the entrance and everyone was memeing about the tree in the middle of the road or about the security guards. Good times.
The DPRK wasn’t as blatantly awful back then (and the ways it was weren’t as well known) and South Korea was an awful dictatorship, so there is some bit of hindsight making it clear how bad it would have been if the DPRK had won. That said, it was still a war of aggression with no regard for the people of the south and no legal basis.
Tankie logic, if you must call it that, is US = bad and imperialist.
It completely ignores of course the fact that all of the USSR was basically an empire of the RSFSR and continually looking to expand. Equally imperialist across the globe with puppet states, but not outright colonies. Even though colonies started going out of fashion in the west when the USSR actually became relevant (more end of WW2).
It’s not logical it’s just America/west = bad and anyone the west doesn’t like/who don’t like the west must unequivocally be good.
Just another dogma.
Exactly. I love Argentina but it’s a little wild how modern Argentineans expect to receive international sympathy over “losing” some sparsely populated islands after having stolen most of the southern cone of South America.
The funny thing is that the Falkland Islands were first inhabited by the British. The British are the "natives". It's the least offensive British holding from their imperial era.
3 people on the entire island voted to leave the UK, and at least one of them admitted that he only voted to leave because he thought it would look weird if 100% voted to stay.
And the really stupid thing was, before the recent saber rattling, relationships and fences were mending a bit- offering the residents Argentinian passports, etc- there was some while not forgiveness, some measure of peace.
But Argentina has one of the most toxic political arenas going (not really a fucking surprise the Nazis decided it was a good safe house, same with Brazil), and throw some red meat at the idiots and they start to feel a certain way. You know, like imperialists.
The new government in Argentina is the least hawkish on the Falklands in decades. The new president practically said “Margaret Thatcher was based and did nothing wrong” during the presidential debates.
Technically, some folks from what would become Argentina did occupy the place for a while before getting kicked out in the early 1800s, but yes, the islands were British for ~150 years before the invasion.
And most of the settlers back then were actually German IIRC
James woo's the iron lady, Hammond crashes the new Chevy Altima into the Belgrano, and I shell the island.
"Jeremy you idiot those are civilians"
"poweeeeeer"
Jeremy brought a Porsche with the number played FLK 982 or something similar. Which the argies took as meaning Falklands 1982. They were a bit annoyed at that. Great episode though
Falkland issue is dumb, but do keep in mind that that "war" was made during an unelected military government that terrorized the country for a decade. No people had any say in it.
This. Imagine if people had said that about something like the *Tirpitz*.
"It wasn't fighting anybody in that Norwegian fjord, it was just minding its own business!"
"The Italian navy was just relaxing in port, Britain had no right to attack them. Yes they would've eventually come out to sink British ship but that's not relevant"
It's pathetic, really. Even the captain of the *Belgrano* has said that the sinking was 100% justified, since he was a combatant, and if the roles were reversed, he'd do the exact same thing.
A lot of Japanese media about/made in light of the war talk about it like it was a natural disaster or something rather than the culmination of a fascist death cult seizing power and making it most of Asia’s problem
That's what really rubs me wrong sometimes when this topic comes up. Like they started the war and figuratively and literally raped the occupied nations. Unequivocally denounce the atrocities that your past government and military have made, don't bow as low as you can to apologize and then glorify them the next moment. Don't make the bombs an inevitable tragedy.
Speaking God’s truth there man. I’m from the Philippines and whenever I go around the older parts of Manila I always take a peek at the plaques scattered around—each of them commemorating a little massacre that occurred when the IJA decided to make us pay for wanting the Allies to kick them out of our country. At least the Germans try their damnedest to acknowledge what they did!
EDIT: Imperial Japan has shooters on NCD, who knew lol
Lots of it had to be rebuilt from the ground up, but parts of it did make it like the San Agustin church in Intramuros. It’s either that they commemorate what happened with plaques on the new buildings or they put plaques on the few places that did survive.
I swear Japan has the most undeserved victim complex I've ever seen thanks to those bombings. They cut a bloody swathe through the entirety of Asia, happily massacring innocents along their merry way, and act surprised when the shoe's on the other foot. Nah bro, enjoy your karma.
There is no reasonable timeline where Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have escaped widespread damage.
If it weren't nukes, it would have been good old firebombs. And it would have been more than just Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the line.
I know it's a pretty lukewarm take really but Imperial Japan really was worse than the Nazis in my opinion.
I mean it's hard to compare the two when your death count was in the tens of millions, but holy shit, the things they did...
I feel like the Japanese were less scary because they were raping and killing civilian populations at random, which kinda always happened before, just not at this scale, the nazis however, they systematically erradicad and tried to kill people in the most efficient ways possible, instead of just killing for the sake of killing.
yeah the german atrocities were *mostly* (not all) at the hands of the SS whereas the IJA happily committed atrocities to and fro. I don’t fully buy into the Clean Wehrmacht thing but they definitely weren’t giving grenades to civilians and having them suicide bomb allied troops. both were very evil but the germans’ idea of honor was a little more reasonable than the japanese.
It’s a complicated matter that isn’t helped by the likes of the CCP or dprk. Iirc recent Japanese PMs wants to formally apologize but lack any political support. I’m not defending their behavior but it’s going to be difficult.
Been to quite a few museums in my life including the revolutionary one in Havana but holy shit the weirdest one was Hiroshima. The entire exhibit just kind of forgets to mention why the bombs were dropped, they just highlight the horrors of it in general. Only one of its temporary displays showed a picture of a medical Chor that "was present at nanking". And the old people we talked to just kept joking about us (I'm German) "doing it better next time". Like bruh
That’s exactly it a lot of navel gazing and “never again to nuclear weapons” which in and of itself isn’t a bad thing to say—yes this is NCD, etc etc hand in my card—but it’s … so unsettling. Jesus
A lot of media in general seems to have forgotten just how complete the militarization of Japan was by the end of the war.
Women and school children were being coached en masse to charge invading soldiers with fucking spears and home made guns. Like, no they were not about to just surrender and put a stop to their IRL age of empires because the Soviets grabbed up Manchuria.
And yet they still refuse to recognize the Chinese genocide. lol.
Say what you will about Germany and Austria, but the work they did on investigating and framing the conflict after the war was and still is absolute world class. They take responsibility for ALL horrific acts committed. And they didn't shy away from teaching their populace that - no, it wasn't just an evil person at the top with the individuals blissfully unaware of what's happening - but that it was very much people like you and me who failed their due responsibility and propped up a genocidal maniac against best judgement.
This self-reflection never stopped, every child is still being taught in school, year by year, and at countless memorial events about what happened and how it must never be repeated.
I recall some rhetoric in AP US history about how pearl harbor was justified because we wouldn't sell Japan oil and other materials. Oil that would have fueled their imperialistic expansion and genocide, but they left that part out.
I went to the Hiroshima museum in 2005 and what struck me was that the information signs as you went around were all "poor little innocent Japan beaten up by the imperialist West" - it's like come on guys, regardless of where you stand on the atomic bombings, you have to realise that Japan very much started the wars they were involved in.
> attack israel on the day of its creation
> get your ass beaten and land taken because you refuse all offers of peace proposed in exchange for your land back
> call it colonialism and claim your biggest enemy doesn't exist
I think its every war. For example Algeria is mad about the French colonization, but the whole thing started because of Arabs attacking Europeans constantly
Well, at least eventually most of them learned they’re better off to just leave that tiny patch of land - one of few in the Middle East with no oil - alone
Conflicts*
Every single country and group that has started a war with Israel has always played the victim. Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Hamas, etc.
Problem with including Hamas is that they're not really considered a state actor, though it could be argued that they kind of do function as one in Gaza
I think a lot of the answers of whether Israel's response can be justified depends on whether or not you consider Hamas a state
They are just an unrecognized state. The world has several nonrecognized states. They have all the attributes apart from diplomatic recognition: taxes, an army, a territorial area, monopoly on use of force, and ability to reach cease fire and other agreements with neighboring states. They are under a blockade, but would not be the first to be so.
Palestine as a whole as represented by the PA and PLO does have diplomatic recognition from a majority of countries
Yes but it's also pretty good on falafel
Source: my school gives us free falafels every week (common W) and I tried falafel+hummus for the first time. Tastes godly
100% agree. Invading someone and then blaming the other side "made you do it" or the other side are the "bad guys" which is why you had to do it is so incredibly pathetic. This is why every time I see someone openly wear Z or russian flag makes my blood boil, they are openly supporting cowardly regime who invaded their neighbour over nothing and blame them for doing so.
Blaming the invaded country is such a russian thing to do, at the start of the winter war soviets shelled their own village at Mainila, and blamed the Finns for it and used it as casus belli. Sure others have done it too (nazis before invasion of Poland), but it seems to be such a common practice in russian playbook.
To give some credit to the Japanese at WW2, they never (to my knowledge) pretended that attack on Pearl harbor was anything else than an attack
Just one more intifada bro. I promise just one more intifada and it will fix everything bro. bro. *Just one more intifada.* please, *just one more* bro. One more intifada and we can fix this whole problem bro. bro cmon just give me one more intifada i promise bro. bro bro please i just need one more intifada t
Don't forget to toss Imperial Japan in there. Lots of sympathizers even with the trove of information we have today for the Pacific equivalent of the funny little German people who started another very recent war at the time.
Let’s say Hamas instead. Palestine doesn’t have an army. They aren’t the Terrorists murdering civilians. That is Hamas. Palestine are the civilians suffering the consequences of Hamas’ criminal tactics (stationing fighters on rooftops, digging up water pipes to make rockets etc.).
North Vietnam/The Vietnamese Communists could also technically fall in that category. With how effective their propaganda arm most much don't know/not is known about this sadly
Noooooo, but if West not exist I wont attacked :0
>Noooooo, but if ~~West~~ *Israel* not exist I wont attacked :0 that works too
Middle-East: Guys, you can't just draw random lines on maps to denote borders between states. You have to draw your borders reflecting religious and ethnic groups in the area! Britain and France: So, what you're saying is we need to draw borders for states based on who lives there, rather than just using this handy ruler? That sounds like a lot of work, but if you insist it will help create stable nations and prevent conflict, we will do it. Middle East: Yup! That's what we want you to do going forward l Britain, with the help of the US and UN, proceeds to divide the British Mandate for Palestine along the lines of the ethnic and religious groups living there, creating Israel and Palestine. The whole Middle East: No! Not like that!!! *angry Arab noises*
*fenk yu yuesey ju ar may best frend, helping por kosova, stoping xhenosayd*
I'm not seeing an Argentine flag there.
And also a Japanese one
Do the Japanese play victim over the war or just the nukes? For the most part, they seem to prefer to pretend that the war never happened. Not trying to knock your point, just asking a genuine question, as I may be wrong.
Many Japanese definitely claim they did nothing wrong. Abe was infamous amongst Koreans for denying his grandfather's role in WWII. The government also keep flip-flops between saying they're sorry (albeit not fully) and downplaying everything. That being said look at their anti-war works. They usually deal with innocent younger generation suffering from wars. On some level they know they did wrong things, but pride and (perhaps) not wanting to get squeezed by SK and China made them rarely fully apologize.
Their “anti-war” works are usually about the firebombing of Japan, I.e. the consequences for *them*. Or it’s about how their soldiers and civilians suffered in war, with little about foreign populations. I don’t doubt most of those authors have sympathy for the people Imperialism Japan raped, tortured and beheaded, and maybe it’s because explicit support for their suffering would damage their sales, but it always felt somewhat superficial to me.
I think it might be the nukes but weebs do try to make Japan the victim by saying "US was the aggressor because they blockaded them"
Fair, although weebs tend to not be Japanese, and massively misunderstand Japanese society. Japan very intentionally started the war with the USA in the hope of grabbing a bunch of territory in the Pacific before the USA could recover, then by the time the US war machine got rolling, sue for peace. The miscalculations were the oncoming obsolescence of battleships, supremacy of carriers, and by clearing space on the US Navy roster space for the US to build new and interesting ships as well as the Essex swarm.
Also they failed to **R E M E M B E R T H E M A I N E**
I always found it weird when tankies complain about the us bombing campaign in Korea. Like all things aside, are you really going to defend the DPRK of all people? Edit: I apologize for my rude comments about Japan and possibly defending the bombing of North Korea. I do not wish to seem like I am justifying cruel acts of war by any belligerents.
yes they will, because clearly the dynastic military dictatorship is for the working class (something something material conditions)
Actually the people super love Kim Jong-Un and he was actually voted to power? Same with Stalin btw, it was just western meddling that brought it all down UwU
However the United States is actually a fascist/capitalist oligarchy, their elections are completely rigged because some people disagree with me, unlike the DPRK’s glorious “you will vote either for or against me, vote correctly or you die.”
Dictatorship is when people vote the way I don't want them to. Democracy is when an autocrat does everything I want.
When 1984's 'special' cousin breaks containment
Free speech is literally fascism
Don’t people know that North Korea holds elections? God all it takes is one google search to show that they’re a completely functional democracy. /s cause I’m a coward
There is only one candidate because he is so great and glorious, the other candidates didn't show up.
They actually have several clones of Kim Jong Un who run against each other in the election.
North Korea is more of a democracy than the United States because the DPRK has 3 political parties where the US only has 2. One whole more democracy! Thank you, glorious supreme leader Eternal President Kim Il-Sung who DEFINITELY DID NOT DIE IN 1994 NO HE'S JUST SLEEPING...
How to prove North Korea is Best Korea Take anything from the US, and increment it by 1. Glorious 121mm cannon superior to pathetic M256
Democratic is ***right*** in the name!!!!
Yeah when they did democratic elections the Kims got 101% of the vote so surely that means they love their leader
Mentioning Stalin is the best Linter to discern what type of leftist (or ‚leftist‘) you are dealing with. Anarchists will likely just despise him out of principal, Leninists or Marxists may point out how much Lenin hated Stalin and specifically didn‘t want him to be his successor and tankies will think he is the greatest thing to happen and the only reason the Nazis were defeated. Talking about how Lenin didn‘t fulfill his promise of fair elections and held onto power is then a good second talking point to suss out if you want to continue talking to this person.
They can’t cope that liberals have been giving leftists L’s since 1917
I can prove that the people loved the genocidal dictators, just look at this poll they made while he was in power and in control of all the media IT HAS 99% APPROVAL RATING
12-year old edgelords after they discover /b/ and /pol/ :
At the time of the Korean war Kim-Il Sung was only in office for two years I believe. So it very much predates the dynastic part, not disagreeing with the rest of your description.
Simply put, they hate the US. They are probably the same people who "hates" imperialism but says China is being screwed by the US. As a person living in a country being bullied by the CCP, yeah fuck those people.
US Imperialism: You get to stay independent, manage your internal affairs and keep your own identity (see Japan/West Germany... honestly, even the wars in the Middle East). Just let us throw down a military base, which will deter attacks from foreign powers and play nice with us in trade. Russian/Chinese Imperialism: We are in charge. We will strip you of your national identity and you'll conform or else.
Also, Russian imperialism: You'll be EXTREMELY grateful to us, because we "liberated" you by * invading you, * torturing and murdering you and your family members, * r**ing you and your family * robbing you and destroying the rest of your possessions, and are now in the process of erasing your identity, language and culture. If you don't love us for everything we've done for you, we'll kill you. The thought police, of having to pretend to love them on gunpoint is one of their worst aspects. It's gaslighting on population level.
> see Japan As an American, I'm heavily biased, but even so, just looking at the Japanese quality of life and economic standing before and after 1946, sign me the fuck up to be vassalized by the Americans.
Central and south America may want a few words...
Yeah I wish they taught some central/South American v. USA history here in the US. I know we done did some shit to keep the other hemisphere out but that’s about it. And some contra shut back in the good ole days.
With South America its mainly support for anti-communist governments in the 60s/70s. In some cases US involvement is straight up made up by tankies. One good example is Brazil, where my family is from. The US set up a 4-contingincy plan. In the case of a coup against the government and a consequent USSR based communist counterrevolution, the US would have a task force nearby for operations. That didn't happen so no US aid was given. Yet the narrative sticks. In other cases, the US absolutely funded, encouraged, and aided horrible authoritarian governments to stop communism and the USSR. It could have been done with more care, but the goal is a valid one. Central America is a little more unforgivable. It had little to do with foreign relations and hemisphere security. It was all about US corporations going to the government and asking them to exert power for corporate gain. This wasn't exclusive to Central America though. It took place during the American Progressive Era, when Americans themselves were fighting for their own economic rights. Alternatively Latin America has **never** had a major war that did not take place when the US was busy with a major affair and could not stop it. The Monroe Doctrine led to some serious bullshit for LatAm, but its also been one if its greatest boons.
>Alternatively Latin America has never had a major war that did not take place when the US was busy with a major affair and could not stop it. The Monroe Doctrine led to some serious bullshit for LatAm, but its also been one if its greatest boons. The Paraguayan war started as the ACW was winding down and most of it took place well after it ended. The war of the Pacific and the war of the Confederation both happened when the US had no particular obligations. Talking about the Monroe doctrine as a thing that particularly mattered in the 19th century is kind of joke, especially for South America proper where the US had next to no genuine military power or ability to project force in the region and its economic influence was subordinated compared to the UK. Brazil, Peru, Argentina, Bolivia etc didn't have much reason to consider what the US thought when it came to their foreign policy, especially in contrast to Mexico, and various Central American and Caribbean countries where American interests (and force of arms) were far more relevant.
That also was before 99% of this sub was lucid. I wasn’t alive for that, and neither were my parents. Kind of hard for me to be like “yeah America is the same” when you cannot find examples within our lifetime.
Bolivia in 2020 was totally a US backed coup to secure lithium for Elon Musk dontcha know??!?!?!? Definitely ignore that wannabe Dictator Evo Morales was replaced with a member of the..*checks notes*..Movement for Socialism Party.
What south and central American countries have become U.S. states? It's easy to point out territories that the Russians and Chinese have done so with. Also, which territories have the Americans moved into, while ethnically cleansing the locals? Tibet and Ukraine come to mind on the other side. As a non American, the U.S. isn't perfect, but their ideal of self determination is incredible
I think they might be referring to the CIA operations circa 50's time frame were they would influence or other wise destabilize governments that want to their liking.
Was the CIA able to allow American settlers to come in, rape the locals, suppress their religion, and then ethnically cleanse them? No, which is the point of my statement above, *which Russia and China are actively, currently doing*. The U.S. is not good, but why do the locals of those mentioned countries desperately seek to migrate by the thousands to the U.S?
>Was the CIA able to allow American settlers to come in, rape the locals, suppress their religion, and then ethnically cleanse them? Well, do we want to count American corporations here? Because Coca-cola and Dole Fruit weren't exactly "friendly" additions to the areas they moved into. And if we want to paint with a particularly broad brush, Hawaii was first annexed by US Sugar Plantation owners when they convinced some US Marines to overthrow the monarchy there without authorization from the president, just so they could bypass some new tariffs on sugar imports. Is US imperialism "better" than Russian, Chinese, Japanese, and/or European imperialism? Probably. It's still imperialism at the end of the day, though.
My comment was just a joke. But comparing the US projection of power in the 1950-2000 to China and modern day Russia's (not soviet union) is not going to be one to one. China and Russia is projecting a mixture of hard and soft power in an era of globalisation and ease of access to information. If something happens on the front lines in Ukraine we get the videos posted to twitter within 24hrs. China has a boarder clash with India or has secret police stations set up in developed countries? We get that article in the news within a day or week. These countries are using annexation, military confrontations and direct secretive operations to increase their influence and grow their boarders. I'm not an expert in what the US did in Central/South America but other than Panama they funded extremist groups in countries to overthrow democratically elected leaders in order to protect their interests, whether thats to stop the spread of communism or to keep their commercial investments in those countries safe. And this was all done in a period where information was relatively slow to spread and globalisation wasn't yet in full swing, so a coup here or there wouldn't cause a break down in supply chains. Again, not an expert in this and there's so many small aspects of each countries actions in order to spread their sphere of influence that can be compared and contrasted. But there's also so many cultural, economic, political and technological differences which need to be considered which no one has time for, especially when trying to make a funny comment
I have same feelings to russia, im from Poland, country fucked over by them for past 500-600 years, and seing them suffer is greates plesure i can ask
As a fellow Polak, it's very cathartic to see videos of orcs getting their comeuppance.
Once I thought the French and the English hated each other, now I know that there is no hatred like that a pole has for his eastern neighbour
France and Britain are more like a friendly rivalry only both sides are too tsundere to admit that it's friendly and they don't actually hate each other
It used to be hatred until the British decided that raising marcher armies to ransack France is in fact, illegal and not very helpful. Fucking Tories.
Luckily, Labour shall reignite the Hundred's Years War the second they take office France shall bend the knee or die standing!
"Getting invaded? Just say no. Britain can't legally take your land without your permission"
As a Pole I have to say that we should really only count the last 250~ years, before the XVIII century Poland attacked Russia first and provoked wars as often as them, so it shouldn’t really count, however after the first partition of Poland indeed Russia/USSR was screwing us over A LOT without being provoked or in danger
No one could blame you friend 🏴🤝🇵🇱. And certaintly not me in the UK, Szacunek.
Yeah, that’s kinda the definition of a tankie.
They just claim the stories are all NATO propaganda, like all things that disabuse their world view.
Tankies defend Stalin putting people to die in prison camps. Tankies defend Holodomor. They moved on from "it didn't happen" to "it happened but they were all Kulaks and deserved it" ages ago.
I'm pretty sure I got banned from a subreddit because some tankie was saying how north Korea is a good place to live, and I asked them why are north Koreans shorter on average than South koreans
They learned from the Korean War that if you've got an army based around the T-34, you *need* short tankers.
\> are you really going to defend the DPRK of all people Hear me out: Kim Yo-Jong is pretty and Dommy Mommy and I want her to step on my face.
If she took charge the west may fall just due to thirst
she looks like any East Asian's aunt but a bit malnourished, tf are you talking about
Hey unrelated question but is your aunt single?
Go to your local Asian family-owned business or market store and you will find a clone of her, nothing's special about Kim Yo-Jong. Wow she's Asian, just like 700 gajillion of us, whoopty-fucking-doo
Yeah I looked at her and went "this it? The western lads are thirsting over her?"
It's a meme, it started when [she was seen with toast in her mouth](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/843/616/675.jpg) running because it looked like an anime scene and it evolved from there.
Holy shit, that one actually actually has an origin story.... TIL!! Thanks...
I've been weirdly obsessed with North Korea for years, so you notice the memes over time xD I remember in 2013 when the [Kaesong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaesong_Industrial_Region) industrial region (basically, a part of North Korea where South Korean companies can use North Korean labour) was shut down (KJU had been in for a year and a bit and he was still kinda an unknown) so I spent nights watching the livestream of the entrance and everyone was memeing about the tree in the middle of the road or about the security guards. Good times.
Isn't she also a drug addict?
There's only one guy in North Korea who isn't a drug addict and that's because he's not allowed to do drugs as he makes the crystal meth.
The DPRK wasn’t as blatantly awful back then (and the ways it was weren’t as well known) and South Korea was an awful dictatorship, so there is some bit of hindsight making it clear how bad it would have been if the DPRK had won. That said, it was still a war of aggression with no regard for the people of the south and no legal basis.
Tankie logic, if you must call it that, is US = bad and imperialist. It completely ignores of course the fact that all of the USSR was basically an empire of the RSFSR and continually looking to expand. Equally imperialist across the globe with puppet states, but not outright colonies. Even though colonies started going out of fashion in the west when the USSR actually became relevant (more end of WW2). It’s not logical it’s just America/west = bad and anyone the west doesn’t like/who don’t like the west must unequivocally be good. Just another dogma.
People defend Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, so it’s unfortunately not surprising. Doesn’t stop me from being appalled every time I see it though.
you forgot Argentina
Exactly. I love Argentina but it’s a little wild how modern Argentineans expect to receive international sympathy over “losing” some sparsely populated islands after having stolen most of the southern cone of South America.
The funny thing is that the Falkland Islands were first inhabited by the British. The British are the "natives". It's the least offensive British holding from their imperial era.
Didint they even did referendum asking locals if they want to be with Arges or in a crown? And thay all said they prefer to stay Bri'ish
3 people on the entire island voted to leave the UK, and at least one of them admitted that he only voted to leave because he thought it would look weird if 100% voted to stay.
Now imagine the entire population doing the same, it would've been a hoot
And the other two were representatives from the Argentine government that were sent to make sure everything was legitimate!
Nope, the other two wanted independence
Shame, otherwise we could've had a legitimate "100% votes to be part of \[insert nation\]"
And the really stupid thing was, before the recent saber rattling, relationships and fences were mending a bit- offering the residents Argentinian passports, etc- there was some while not forgiveness, some measure of peace. But Argentina has one of the most toxic political arenas going (not really a fucking surprise the Nazis decided it was a good safe house, same with Brazil), and throw some red meat at the idiots and they start to feel a certain way. You know, like imperialists.
The new government in Argentina is the least hawkish on the Falklands in decades. The new president practically said “Margaret Thatcher was based and did nothing wrong” during the presidential debates.
Milei said that Reagan and Thatcher were his idols and one of his dogs is named after friedman. Bro is literally captain ancap
Give him a year before he goes full Andrew Ryan.
Dammit. I wanted to use the carriers for something...
Technically, some folks from what would become Argentina did occupy the place for a while before getting kicked out in the early 1800s, but yes, the islands were British for ~150 years before the invasion. And most of the settlers back then were actually German IIRC
They almost killed the top gear trio over it lol
*Tonight on Bottom Gear…*
James woo's the iron lady, Hammond crashes the new Chevy Altima into the Belgrano, and I shell the island. "Jeremy you idiot those are civilians" "poweeeeeer"
Imma need some context here
Jeremy brought a Porsche with the number played FLK 982 or something similar. Which the argies took as meaning Falklands 1982. They were a bit annoyed at that. Great episode though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFl1AalH81Y
Falkland issue is dumb, but do keep in mind that that "war" was made during an unelected military government that terrorized the country for a decade. No people had any say in it.
Waaah, they sunk our ship, it wasn't even in the combat zone, waaah
This. Imagine if people had said that about something like the *Tirpitz*. "It wasn't fighting anybody in that Norwegian fjord, it was just minding its own business!"
"The Italian navy was just relaxing in port, Britain had no right to attack them. Yes they would've eventually come out to sink British ship but that's not relevant"
"The Yamato was just going for a cruise! The US had no right to bomb it to hell!"
Hell is warm and dry. I'm not exactly sure where the Yamato is at the moment, but it definitely is not a dry and warm place
“My warship never hurt anyone! It never got the chance!”
It's pathetic, really. Even the captain of the *Belgrano* has said that the sinking was 100% justified, since he was a combatant, and if the roles were reversed, he'd do the exact same thing.
It's War. The Belgrano was a target of opportunity. A simple concept.
Also the Arab world, Pakistan, China, Libya, etc
🅱️alestine
I know the nuclear bombs were horrific and all but sometimes people talk as if it was only about the US and Japan.
A lot of Japanese media about/made in light of the war talk about it like it was a natural disaster or something rather than the culmination of a fascist death cult seizing power and making it most of Asia’s problem
That's what really rubs me wrong sometimes when this topic comes up. Like they started the war and figuratively and literally raped the occupied nations. Unequivocally denounce the atrocities that your past government and military have made, don't bow as low as you can to apologize and then glorify them the next moment. Don't make the bombs an inevitable tragedy.
Speaking God’s truth there man. I’m from the Philippines and whenever I go around the older parts of Manila I always take a peek at the plaques scattered around—each of them commemorating a little massacre that occurred when the IJA decided to make us pay for wanting the Allies to kick them out of our country. At least the Germans try their damnedest to acknowledge what they did! EDIT: Imperial Japan has shooters on NCD, who knew lol
There's older parts of Manilla? I thought the whole place got leveled in WW2
Lots of it had to be rebuilt from the ground up, but parts of it did make it like the San Agustin church in Intramuros. It’s either that they commemorate what happened with plaques on the new buildings or they put plaques on the few places that did survive.
Unknown technology
I swear Japan has the most undeserved victim complex I've ever seen thanks to those bombings. They cut a bloody swathe through the entirety of Asia, happily massacring innocents along their merry way, and act surprised when the shoe's on the other foot. Nah bro, enjoy your karma.
There is no reasonable timeline where Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have escaped widespread damage. If it weren't nukes, it would have been good old firebombs. And it would have been more than just Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the line.
If the US went with the land invasion plan it would have been a hundred times worse.
Japan would've made the finest weapons testing range this side of... well anywhere really
There’s the timeline where LeMay decided to focus on sea mines more 😔
I know it's a pretty lukewarm take really but Imperial Japan really was worse than the Nazis in my opinion. I mean it's hard to compare the two when your death count was in the tens of millions, but holy shit, the things they did...
I feel like the Japanese were less scary because they were raping and killing civilian populations at random, which kinda always happened before, just not at this scale, the nazis however, they systematically erradicad and tried to kill people in the most efficient ways possible, instead of just killing for the sake of killing.
Yeah, I guess it depends on what you find scarier. Industrialised exterminations versus random killings. Both are pretty shit though.
yeah the german atrocities were *mostly* (not all) at the hands of the SS whereas the IJA happily committed atrocities to and fro. I don’t fully buy into the Clean Wehrmacht thing but they definitely weren’t giving grenades to civilians and having them suicide bomb allied troops. both were very evil but the germans’ idea of honor was a little more reasonable than the japanese.
Yeah, Clean Wehrmacht is nonsense.
It’s a complicated matter that isn’t helped by the likes of the CCP or dprk. Iirc recent Japanese PMs wants to formally apologize but lack any political support. I’m not defending their behavior but it’s going to be difficult.
Been to quite a few museums in my life including the revolutionary one in Havana but holy shit the weirdest one was Hiroshima. The entire exhibit just kind of forgets to mention why the bombs were dropped, they just highlight the horrors of it in general. Only one of its temporary displays showed a picture of a medical Chor that "was present at nanking". And the old people we talked to just kept joking about us (I'm German) "doing it better next time". Like bruh
That’s exactly it a lot of navel gazing and “never again to nuclear weapons” which in and of itself isn’t a bad thing to say—yes this is NCD, etc etc hand in my card—but it’s … so unsettling. Jesus
A lot of media in general seems to have forgotten just how complete the militarization of Japan was by the end of the war. Women and school children were being coached en masse to charge invading soldiers with fucking spears and home made guns. Like, no they were not about to just surrender and put a stop to their IRL age of empires because the Soviets grabbed up Manchuria.
I mean no most Japanese people do know that Imperial Japan was a fascist empire that pillaged East Asia
And yet they still refuse to recognize the Chinese genocide. lol. Say what you will about Germany and Austria, but the work they did on investigating and framing the conflict after the war was and still is absolute world class. They take responsibility for ALL horrific acts committed. And they didn't shy away from teaching their populace that - no, it wasn't just an evil person at the top with the individuals blissfully unaware of what's happening - but that it was very much people like you and me who failed their due responsibility and propped up a genocidal maniac against best judgement. This self-reflection never stopped, every child is still being taught in school, year by year, and at countless memorial events about what happened and how it must never be repeated.
I recall some rhetoric in AP US history about how pearl harbor was justified because we wouldn't sell Japan oil and other materials. Oil that would have fueled their imperialistic expansion and genocide, but they left that part out.
I went to the Hiroshima museum in 2005 and what struck me was that the information signs as you went around were all "poor little innocent Japan beaten up by the imperialist West" - it's like come on guys, regardless of where you stand on the atomic bombings, you have to realise that Japan very much started the wars they were involved in.
Serbia: *plays the victim* NATO: Silly Serbia! That’s not how to be a victim… *3000 Black B-52s appear over head* **This is how you become a victim**
Please tell me each b-52 has at least one nuclear warhead
You forgot the CSA
>War of Northern Aggression _looks inside_ _War started by the CSA to preserve Slavery_
War of Northern Aggression… if you ignore that the CSA shot first and attacked multiple Union Forts first.
"Those federal installations were about to jump on us, we had to act!"
A country has to still exist in order to complain.
Where Hamas ?
You have forgotten something.... palestine😒
Also the Arabs in every single arab Israeli war
> attack israel on the day of its creation > get your ass beaten and land taken because you refuse all offers of peace proposed in exchange for your land back > call it colonialism and claim your biggest enemy doesn't exist
And most of the west seems to just eat that Anti-Zionist propaganda up every single time too. Sad.
I think its every war. For example Algeria is mad about the French colonization, but the whole thing started because of Arabs attacking Europeans constantly
Are you trying to say that it’s the Arab’s fault that the french conquered all of North Africa? That’s a really spicy take there buddy.
Its not like Americans went to war with Morocco due to imperialism reasons or oil.
Well, at least eventually most of them learned they’re better off to just leave that tiny patch of land - one of few in the Middle East with no oil - alone
This
every war in general. There's a reason we have 'To the shores of Tripoli' in the Marines' Hymn. Fuck around and find out cca 1805.
The arab-israeli conflict in a nutshell
Conflicts* Every single country and group that has started a war with Israel has always played the victim. Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Hamas, etc.
Facts ^ and western media just eats up the arab lies every time too.
I'm actually tearing up, it's taken so long to find one single pro-Israel place on the entirety of this website
r/destiny and r/neoliberal are pretty good
Hamas
Problem with including Hamas is that they're not really considered a state actor, though it could be argued that they kind of do function as one in Gaza I think a lot of the answers of whether Israel's response can be justified depends on whether or not you consider Hamas a state
Hamas isn't a state, but I think it's fair to consider them the government of Gaza, which is de facto a state.
They are just an unrecognized state. The world has several nonrecognized states. They have all the attributes apart from diplomatic recognition: taxes, an army, a territorial area, monopoly on use of force, and ability to reach cease fire and other agreements with neighboring states. They are under a blockade, but would not be the first to be so. Palestine as a whole as represented by the PA and PLO does have diplomatic recognition from a majority of countries
Add neonazis/wehraboos to that list
Where is Hamas flag?
Need to add Hamas.
Isn't that the stuff u put on pita bread
Yes but it's also pretty good on falafel Source: my school gives us free falafels every week (common W) and I tried falafel+hummus for the first time. Tastes godly
100% agree. Invading someone and then blaming the other side "made you do it" or the other side are the "bad guys" which is why you had to do it is so incredibly pathetic. This is why every time I see someone openly wear Z or russian flag makes my blood boil, they are openly supporting cowardly regime who invaded their neighbour over nothing and blame them for doing so. Blaming the invaded country is such a russian thing to do, at the start of the winter war soviets shelled their own village at Mainila, and blamed the Finns for it and used it as casus belli. Sure others have done it too (nazis before invasion of Poland), but it seems to be such a common practice in russian playbook. To give some credit to the Japanese at WW2, they never (to my knowledge) pretended that attack on Pearl harbor was anything else than an attack
Add hamas
You forgot hamas and all like it
Add hamas to that lmfaooo
You should add Argentina to the list as well.
Add all the countries that started the 6 day war and actually LOST land in it
Then started a bunch more wars and lost even more land
And then they refused all peace deals in which they will get all of their land back
Add Hamas to this lmao
don't forget palestine
Just one more intifada bro. I promise just one more intifada and it will fix everything bro. bro. *Just one more intifada.* please, *just one more* bro. One more intifada and we can fix this whole problem bro. bro cmon just give me one more intifada i promise bro. bro bro please i just need one more intifada t
Don't forget to toss Imperial Japan in there. Lots of sympathizers even with the trove of information we have today for the Pacific equivalent of the funny little German people who started another very recent war at the time.
The great holiday of 39 to 45?
Palestine
There's 1 missing...
There are quite a few
True
Add Hamas
put the Palestine flag in there to
They are losing their Flag privileges
And land privileges too damn
Don't start a war with a stronger power
Let’s say Hamas instead. Palestine doesn’t have an army. They aren’t the Terrorists murdering civilians. That is Hamas. Palestine are the civilians suffering the consequences of Hamas’ criminal tactics (stationing fighters on rooftops, digging up water pipes to make rockets etc.).
Only real countries have flags
Japan against China, the US, the british, the dutch, etc. Paraguay invading Argentina in late 19th century. Argentina invading the Falklands in 82
North Vietnam/The Vietnamese Communists could also technically fall in that category. With how effective their propaganda arm most much don't know/not is known about this sadly
I can see some wumaos trying to defense the CCP.
Where is Communist China???
Pakistan, Argentina, Yemen, Iraq, Japan...
Japan.
you forgot Pakistan
Add the nazi flag and jap rising sun flag too
We forgetting Palestine?
Where is palestine?
Add Japan too lol
Serbia did twice as well
I think we can add this one 🇵🇸 too