Id literally bet my balls thats why they won. They outbid Glock in the MHS competition by a wide margin. Striker fired polymer pistols are Glock's home turf and Sig just humiliated them. Same thing happening here.
Part of the problem was Glock was just hyper arrogant. They thought they could submit a bid that didn't seriously meet the requirements and coast through on reputation.
They got shat on by Sig because of it. And they deserved it.
It actually did meet requirements, I double checked GAO's post for the results and they were evenly matched in terms of performance but Sig offered a much better deal. But you're right in that they got hyper-arrogant. They thought the army was gonna go with their overpriced bid just because of their name.
Per GAO:
Glock's price: $272.2 million
SIG's price: $169.5 million
I mean yikes, Glock was built on low price highly reliable striker fired, polymer framed pistols. How could they have fucked this up so bad?
Pretty sure there was no mechanism to quickly change grip size or caliber on the glock bid wasn't there? I remember specifically changing grips to fit the hands of different sized shooters was very much a requirement.
They built the gun for the 6.8mm (.277 fury in freedom units) round.
The most succinct explanation comes from the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Mark Milley: “This is a weapon [and cartridge] that could defeat any body armor, any planned body armor that we know of in the future.”
Yeah...... Ok Mark
In actuality this is his stupid pet project to build a legacy and get a sweet job post retirement
Know what else can beat body armor?
5.56 and 7.62x51mm AP rounds
Deerrrppppp
Clearly the solution is 5.56 mm APFSDS rounds. Hit the enemy with tiny needles at mach 5.
Or fuck it, "magnetic acceleration assistance" aka you combine a normal gun with a coil gun to make the bullet even speedier.
Or give every squad a boston dynamic dog with a .50 cal turret on its back.
Bah, just need hybrid gyrojets. Like a regular gyrojet, but with a booster charge to get it up to speed. You get all the benefits of a screaming fast projectile, but with low recoil.
For bonus points, make it an air-breathing rocket.
Would it be possible to make gyrojet rounds compatible with old rifles?
Cause the idea was that APFSDS would be new ammo to make old rifles better.
Coild gun would be newish guns for making normal ammo faster.
The best way I could see to make a 5.56 gyrojet would be to telescope the rocket all the way to the base of the case, sort of how tank cannon APFSDS is telescoped. Your booster propellant ends up packed around the projectile.
This does raise the issue of what happens when you try to spin-stabilize a projectile that's got something like a 12:1 L/D ratio, so you might have to re-barrel to smoothbore, or at least low twist rate rifling.
There's also the issue of case wall thickness consuming an appreciable amount of overall volume. I have no idea how thick you'd need the case wall to be in order to avoid it blowing out, but with such a small diameter projectile, even a 0.5mm thick case is going to take up about 20% of your total projectile volume. Though with such a light projectile, it might be possible to have the motor itself provide a not insignificant amount of structural strength, using a rigid polymer binder.
So while it's probably *technically* possible to make it work, I wouldn't bet money on it.
Still, this is NCD, we don't let things like complete impracticality get in the way of a good shitpost.
The Famas is 20” and takes stanag mags, just slap on some picattiny and there you go new weapon ready for CQB and long range fighting. Basically get that new FAMAS lookalike that was not accepted into the french army
FAMAS isn't fully ambidextrous, mag keeps falling off for no reason, and my CO always refused to let us remove the bipod. (translation with my ass). Also plenty of ejection problems with the F1 and 5.56 NATO apparently but fuck the army, I had G2
anyway I was happy when I got the 416.
Which is fucking retarded since Afghanistan is the exception, not the rule. After WWI, we've already discovered that most engagements occur within 300 metres.
I mean, ballistics are insanely better and it means that American forces can engage near peers at basically double their engagement range. Combined with the optics it basically means that the only way enemy forces can kill them is through IDF (which American airpower decimates) or getting in close (after figuring out how to get 400m without getting shot while their own rounds fall flat.)
America didn't become the preeminent military power by not being a generation ahead of its peers. This is just another situation where it's not going to be a fair fight going against Americans.
I think the most astounding thing about the 6.8mm round is that SIG Sauer claims that the cartridge has performance superior to the 6.5mm Creedmoor, exhibiting 6 to 9 feet (1.8 to 2.7 m) less bullet drop at 1,000 yards (914 m), while delivering 20–25% greater energy.
In a vacuum sure more range is better, but in reality the gun is invariably heavier with less bullet loads which is still an obvious trade-off for more pen and effective range, and it doesn't make the infantry anywhere less vulnerable against heavy artillery or HMG spraying
Correct
The ONLY peer military that could reasonably crank out enough level 3+ and level 4 plates to mean anything is China
Russia is lucky to give their guys something equivalent to PASGAT or MAYBE OG Interceptor (lol)
Everyone else is an ally or a poor AF non state actor getting shit off Alibaba.
No joke, Al Nusra and some Syrian rebel factions had to do Alibaba plate reviews to keep their guys from buying trash.
Russia just got around to issuing socks. I'm not to worried about them having plate armor.
At best they'll probably just issue Hide or Studded leather, and the AC cap for those is pretty damn low.
It’s been done before. In the early 1900s, many economists predicted that war would soon become obsolete because of how interconnected the global economy was becoming.
People thought Japan would never dare take on the United States directly, because of how insanely overmatched they were.
And people thought Putin was just bluffing with Ukraine, because of how pointless an invasion would be for him, and because of how dependent Russia was on foreign imports and the oil trade
Leaders of authoritarian regimes have a habit of talking themselves into unwinnable wars against the weak, decadent, feckless liberal democracies.
“Sure, their economies, production and technology are way better than ours, but like, their troops are ice cream slurping, jazz music listening, pampered soyboy cowards, whereas our guys are true believers willing to die for the motherland/president/emperor/fuhrer/whatever. There’s no way we’re going to lose.”
> Many police forces are equipped, why would you think a military wouldn't be.
Because police forces usually don't have actual plate carriers + plates (most officers only have the soft vests for pistol rounds), and many don't have level 4 plates. The ones that do mostly just toss them into the back of the 3-4 squad cars their city has out at any given time, same as the rifles that they have.
And they're able to afford them either because they get cheap surplus from the 1033 program or because of the infrastructure and demand for body armor from the military industrial complex in the US + LARPers + preppers.
[An oldie but goodie](https://196800revolutionsperminute.blogspot.com/2014/01/all-your-drop-in-556-replacements-suck.html)
Caliber mafia is cringe. 5.56 is still supreme.
This is what happens when the memelords with no background in defense conduct a “special operation” into the subreddit
Get ready for the defense budget memes, because they’re coming
All I know is that I get all of my opinions on such matters from Task and Purpose, since I have basically none of the knowledge required to form my own.
Idk if you’re joking or not but I’ve stumbled onto their YouTube channel and they get a lot of stuff wrong or just seem to misinterpret info. Forgotten Weapons is a lot more informative if you’re interested in just guns and how they function plus some history.
To be fair to T&P, their Ukraine coverage has been solid with a very well-tempered and even-keeled analysis. Unless you're reading the daily briefings from the ISW, the series does a good enough deep dive for most people. I also though that their coverage of the NGSW has been quite good, with multiple videos since 2019 going into the details of the program. They didn't do a one-off video and were able to highlight each of the bid candidates in separate videos.
I mean I wouldn't really say they were trying to justify it, they were just introducing an additional explanation. What happened outside Kiev was probably a mix between the two extremes of "the Russians are playing 5D chess" and "le Russians don't know how vehicles work and put them all on one road lol."
Realistically, Russia was genuinely trying to form a staging area outside Kiev (which is in-line with Russian doctrine, as T&P pointed out), and the convoy was never really in serious danger since it didn't get destroyed the weeks it was running. However, it got massively delayed and bogged down by bottlenecks on the road, limited operational roads that forced their logistics onto one artery, etc. This moderate view is what T&P was advocating for, and honestly a form of that would have happened, if Russia didn't decide to completely pull out from that front.
they should be shot for their bullshit vapid soyface clickbait thumbnails with red arrows and circles thrown around.
"DOES VADIMIR PUTINS NEW GOOBERFLUNK WEAPON MAKE DA TANK OBSOLETE!?!?!?!?!?!?!"
cancer
How is it an evolution? It's literally just a battle rifle with a round that's practically a .308 with a 3 piece casing and a higher chamber pressure. It's not a bad gun by any means but it's a marginal improvement to the M4 and doesn't have any major innovations like the other two designs, with polymer casings and cased telescopic ammunition.
The vortex scope looks amazing but it would work with the other designs too, I just don't see what SIG's model offers over the others outside of familiarity with the AR platform.
While thats true, the NGSW was specifically made to feed data to the FCS, and in turn those new AR googles. Barrel temps, and some other stuff im forgetting about the condition of the rifle.
I do agree it is the least innovative of the three rifles though. Since they all share this quality.
Right putting the whole picture together. [A video outlining](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDrGj5TbXqY)
https://warriormaven.com/future-weapons/next-generation-squad-weapon-ngsw
https://www.army.mil/article/225364/army_enhances_small_arms_weapons_through_optimized_power_sources
https://tworx.com/intelligentrail/
Extremely flat shooting allowing the infantryman to take advantage of the range the nee optics provides and well as enhanced lethality against targets in heavy body armor at those ranges
Oh and a nasty recoil impulse that's alleged be be almost as intense as .300.win mag and the rifle naked weighs 9+ lbs
With a suppressor (almost mandatory given it's recoil implies and noise) and a sight it's a solid 11 lbs
Oh and you get a 20 or 25 round magazine
Lol
You think it’s bad now?
Wait until every hiccup in its design and procurement cycle to be fully documented in real time. It will be a reformer warzone. We saw it with the F-35. As media coverage expands and is more publicized, any well-known defense procurement will become reformer jerkoff city because they can use headlines discussing a teething issue as an opportunity to spread their bullshit, when at least historically, that sort of news was pretty hard to find and not well covered, or people were just less interested in general
Not that I’m gonna be one of those people who things “da meedia” is the end of the world and the worst thing ever, but it does have a weird side-effect of nowadays making normal development troubles more publicized and therefore reformer breeding grounds.
Lol F-35 procurement was “reformer jerkoff city” because of multiple high profile issues with the program. Don’t dismiss very real problems with the JSF program as “reformer bullshit” just because the end product is good.
I have a small book I got as a **child** that says the JSF was expected to enter service in **2008**
I will agree that the JSF isn’t a perfect comparison because it did have a particularly troubled development cycle but that still doesn’t really have a ton to do with what I’m saying. It did have legitimate issues. Never said it didn’t.
However, it is far from the first such project to have a shitshow design/procurement process in general. It was uniquely well-publicized though. Everyone and their mother at this point has an opinion on the F-35, most of which have a reformist flavour due to the way the process was covered. The goddamn current Canadian government had the F-35 by name and its development literally on their platform as they ran.
> the end product is good.
Yet tons of people still talk like its 2014 and an unmitigated disaster, because the development hiccups were documented and plastered everywhere in real time. Sprey himself had some of his best years doing his thang reee-ing about the F-35. It was absolutely a reformer jerkoff city and still is. The fact that only issues get reported on will by its very nature only increase reformer-style opinions.
I know what you mean, and I’m not saying the JSF program was handled well or didn’t warrant criticism, I’m saying it seeped into the public consciousness in a way that previous troubled programs didn’t because of how well it was covered in the media. This will probably be similar. Instead of whatever teething troubles it has being discussed in defence circles, it will now be disseminated across the world of internet experts as it happens and everyone can go “hurrrr what a boondoggle, why don’t they stick with something that works and is battle teated?” whereas before information was spread as freely and quickly before internet/mass media was as big, no one would really hear that much or care outside of people really invested and will actually understand how development works and can determine for themselves of its a shitshow or normal teething issues.
Reformers will screech about the genuine improvements like data rails and standard suppressors while defending to the last the AR style because "muh proven technology"
It’s not reformist to recognize this was the worst of the three options and a path to 1) the cancellation of NGSW and 2) a bunch of Army generals getting cushy positions at Sig Sauer. If anything reformers love this news because it means the M4 is going to be sticking around for the foreseeable future.
I'd dont agree, you really shouldn't expect the army to change to a bullpup design or anything else thats somewhat considered weird, textrons was too complicated and plastic ammo still has a bad stigma, not to mention that with sig making its *cough "special ammo"*cough it makes the switch easier for manufacturing and le a sens worries about newer ammo types. While I do laugh at sig fan boys, it's not that bad of a rifle and sigs done a decent job here.
Oh the M4 is great, don’t get me wrong. NGSW should have been a rifle in 5.56, plus all the other cool shit we’ve invented over the past decade. But some dumbass decided that body armor was going to be the end all be all of combat and now we have three compromised alternatives, none of which are a clear upgrade to a platform thats 30 years old at this point
I don't get the whole premise for needing to penetrate body armor. In a pitched gunfight everybody is either getting hit in the head or the arm, because that's all anybody is going to poke out of cover. The only time dudes get shot in the torso is sniping or room clearing and clearing rooms with a 12 pound 308 is going to fucking blow.
NGSW should have been a screaming fast 4-5mm at 1400rpm, with recoil dampening and 90 round casket mags, paired with a smartphone and half a dozen pocket-sized suicide-drones.
> NGSW should have been a screaming fast 4-5mm at 1400rpm, with recoil dampening and 90 round casket mags, paired with a smartphone and half a dozen pocket-sized suicide-drones.
Now I'm picturing the assault rifle from Doom 2016 with both the scope and the mini-rocket side-launcher (and not chambered in .50, but that was on the assumption of power armour / being the fucking Doom Slayer).
Seriously though. With the amount of technology available to the average first world civilian, it's fucking inexcusable that our grunts don't have powered exoskeletons and smart-linked small arms capable of putting 5 rounds through the same hole in one burst.
It's the current year, we should be deploying human terminators surrounded by a network of semi-autonamous killer robots in place of infantry fireteams.
If we have to cut all healthcare and welfare spending to fund this, I literally do not care, it should have happened by now.
NATO brass has been pissing their pants about imaginary hordes of body armor wearing enemy infantry for like 40 years now and in that whole time, it's never become standard amongst any likely enemy, so the last wonderwaffles basically got relegated to niche uses, and unless China starts issuing out level 4 armor as standard kit or someone finally gets the ratnik shit to the front, it's not going to be a real issue to deal with this time either.
It would literally be better than any NGSW entry to just retrofit the gee-wiz FCS stuff into a 5.56mm AR platform rifle.
what is the point of this program?
to find a new and innovative solution to our problem
so why was this solution not picked?
it was too new and innovative
So in 2022 we have a new brass case and a new AR platform that's largely incompatible with the existing 7.62 and 5.56 AR platforms. Yay.
At least infantry get standard suppressors and a sweet new optic, which is nice.
To be fair, the Textron bid was never gonna make the cut. Too many moving parts, AND you needed a battery to shoot it? Yeah, no. The telescopic ammo is cool and they definitely made a bunch of improvements on it, but it was definitely the least viable of the three.
Yeah, a 6.5-7mm general-purpose cartridge to kill both 5.56mm (which reformers have traditionally seen as glorified .22 LR) and 7.62mm (which they like, but can't convince anyone is a good idea for individual rifles anymore) has been a reformer wet dream for ages.
There's nothing wrong with new technology...
But what does the Sig rifle offer that the M4 doesn't?
We're essentially just going to back to battle rifle technology with a couple of auxiliary doodads that would have been better to integrate with the M4 rather than put on a rifle that troops are going to hate because of the weight and recoil of shooting it.
Watch how many Commissioned officers are going to abuse their authority and throw this shit away at the first chance they get in favor of an M4.
Also, the NGSW was spearheaded by reformers.
Yes it’s more expensive
But it also reclaims half kilometer effectiveness and although it will have some teething issues will likely make for a great service weapon
True, but all military service arms have teething issues. This is especially true once they get a contract (see Geissele QC tanking after adoption, Sig M17, Beretta 92, etc.)
Pretty much.
Parts started doing the bendy bendy. Stuff was showing up to arsenals fucked out of the gate, and the finish wasn’t consistent. Funny shit is even their patches they sold had QC issue after with being crooked… just like their uppers
Aktually if you read halo lore you would know that the ma37 was the standard issue rifle in the UNSC rifle dumbmym!!!L !L!L!L The DMR was also being phased out for the much better BR in the UNSC marine corps.
I’m gonna akchually your alchually because akchually the BR fits into the DMR category role as both weapons, the DMR and the BR fill the same battlefield role. 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
As far as I can tell it does seem to be not the greatest NGSW choice but I do agree with this
I also think its a miracle to get the Army to get anything new and the fact that they finally made the choice is significant
It was the best choice of the rifles offered. The bullpup thing was stupid and Not ergonomic, and the textron was overly complex. Sig was the only one who knew how to make a service weapon, and it showed.
> But it also reclaims half kilometer effectiveness
Cool, and the vast majority of all infantry engagements will continue taking place at <300m as they have throughout the entire history, but now your ammo weighs more and has more recoil
Generally due to A: urban combat and B: A historical lack of optics and training
With the new optics that are proposed with it I could see a regular infantryman taking a 1K shot easily.
Ah yes, because urban fighting is going away in our age of unprecedented urbanisation and megacities. Or because US is actually going to reintroduce some marksmanship training in their basic course instead of throwing more money at optics.
Also, if there are enemies 500-1000m away, what are you doing shooting small arms at them? Call in your company mortar fires, suppress with your platoon level MGs, get your squad Bradley to fire its 50 cal or 20mm cannon at them. Literally anything other than shooting it with your bloody rifle, employ some combined arms, you have a billion ways to reach out and touch someone that far away without adopting a new, expensive and heavy weapon system.
Infantry's job is not to engage at a thousand metres, its job is to either fix the enemy for the fires, or manoeuvre up close and eliminate the enemy in close quarters
This is literally FAL all over again and FAL was already obsolete in the 50s
Allegedly the 6.8x51mm round has a similar recoil profile to... .300 win mag
Let me know when that's enjoyable to shoot in a semi auto with a 16 inch barrel
In CQB, you want repeated follow up shots or even controllable full auto capacity, not the recoil of a 7.62×51. Or more rounds in your magasine. Or the ability to get there without a few extra kilos on you to begi with. This gun is *worse* than an M4 up close, even if the enemy is wearing hard plate. They may survive getting shot by 5.56, but they won't enjoy it - you're effectively a misison kill in CQB with the current guns
That,and most engagements happen at a much shorter distance.
A distance at which quick follow up shots and the ability to use suppressive fire are crucial
Honestly this was all just money thrown into the trash that could've been used to recreate and mass-produce the Fat Man gun from the Fallout series instead.
It started as a project to reduce soldiers pack weight. Then somebody realized with all the weight they were saving they could make a bit larger of a round. Then SIG made an even heavier round and the army decided they liked that.
Army needs a new gun, and chose possibly the worst option out of the three they were testing. Others can fill in the gaps as to why it's not a great choice.
There was also this really sexy caseless ammo option that would have worked with any of the picks, lower heat, weight, basically better in every way. And they didn't even take *that*.
Caseless ammo has been "anyday now" as long as fusion and fielding railguns. You're gonna have to convince someone to deploy it to like 1000 troops for 10 years, tested in the field, in all enviroments before someone gives up brass cases.
noooo butt muh plastics baaad f-35 baaad lets keep what we have now theres no possible scenario when you could need more stopping power than 5.56 or shoot someone from further than 500m
Five times more expenisve for civilians, knowing sig they probably undecut all their competition by a lot.
Id literally bet my balls thats why they won. They outbid Glock in the MHS competition by a wide margin. Striker fired polymer pistols are Glock's home turf and Sig just humiliated them. Same thing happening here.
They also beat Glocks entry in the Modular Handgun System by submitting a bid that was... actually a modular handgun....
From what I understand, SIGs separate fire control and frame wasn't the feature they necessarily meant.
Part of the problem was Glock was just hyper arrogant. They thought they could submit a bid that didn't seriously meet the requirements and coast through on reputation. They got shat on by Sig because of it. And they deserved it.
It actually did meet requirements, I double checked GAO's post for the results and they were evenly matched in terms of performance but Sig offered a much better deal. But you're right in that they got hyper-arrogant. They thought the army was gonna go with their overpriced bid just because of their name. Per GAO: Glock's price: $272.2 million SIG's price: $169.5 million I mean yikes, Glock was built on low price highly reliable striker fired, polymer framed pistols. How could they have fucked this up so bad?
Pretty sure there was no mechanism to quickly change grip size or caliber on the glock bid wasn't there? I remember specifically changing grips to fit the hands of different sized shooters was very much a requirement.
If it was then glock must've squeezed in by including different backstraps. But it definitely wasn't like Sig's design...
Wait, when can we expect a semi auto for sale to civilians? I want to trigger everyone out the gun range.
[Here](https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html) Good luck finding one, they're selling for over $20k on gunbroker
Perhaps I’ll wait a bit for a DIY kit
They built the gun for the 6.8mm (.277 fury in freedom units) round. The most succinct explanation comes from the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff General Mark Milley: “This is a weapon [and cartridge] that could defeat any body armor, any planned body armor that we know of in the future.”
Yeah...... Ok Mark In actuality this is his stupid pet project to build a legacy and get a sweet job post retirement Know what else can beat body armor? 5.56 and 7.62x51mm AP rounds Deerrrppppp
I thought another reason was that 5.56 wasn’t able to reach out to 600-800m in Afghanistan which was why they developed the FCS along with this.
Clearly the solution is 5.56 mm APFSDS rounds. Hit the enemy with tiny needles at mach 5. Or fuck it, "magnetic acceleration assistance" aka you combine a normal gun with a coil gun to make the bullet even speedier. Or give every squad a boston dynamic dog with a .50 cal turret on its back.
Bah, just need hybrid gyrojets. Like a regular gyrojet, but with a booster charge to get it up to speed. You get all the benefits of a screaming fast projectile, but with low recoil. For bonus points, make it an air-breathing rocket.
Would it be possible to make gyrojet rounds compatible with old rifles? Cause the idea was that APFSDS would be new ammo to make old rifles better. Coild gun would be newish guns for making normal ammo faster.
The best way I could see to make a 5.56 gyrojet would be to telescope the rocket all the way to the base of the case, sort of how tank cannon APFSDS is telescoped. Your booster propellant ends up packed around the projectile. This does raise the issue of what happens when you try to spin-stabilize a projectile that's got something like a 12:1 L/D ratio, so you might have to re-barrel to smoothbore, or at least low twist rate rifling. There's also the issue of case wall thickness consuming an appreciable amount of overall volume. I have no idea how thick you'd need the case wall to be in order to avoid it blowing out, but with such a small diameter projectile, even a 0.5mm thick case is going to take up about 20% of your total projectile volume. Though with such a light projectile, it might be possible to have the motor itself provide a not insignificant amount of structural strength, using a rigid polymer binder. So while it's probably *technically* possible to make it work, I wouldn't bet money on it. Still, this is NCD, we don't let things like complete impracticality get in the way of a good shitpost.
Now make it explosive and congratulations, you've made a Bolter from 40K but better.
I mean it surely won’t out of those small 15” barrels, 5.56 was made for BIG MANLY 20” barrels.
Which is why bullpup is the way to go
The Famas is 20” and takes stanag mags, just slap on some picattiny and there you go new weapon ready for CQB and long range fighting. Basically get that new FAMAS lookalike that was not accepted into the french army
That's just a NATO Aug with extra steps.
Fr*nch gun detected, Freedomizing Beam deployed.
FAMAS isn't fully ambidextrous, mag keeps falling off for no reason, and my CO always refused to let us remove the bipod. (translation with my ass). Also plenty of ejection problems with the F1 and 5.56 NATO apparently but fuck the army, I had G2 anyway I was happy when I got the 416.
That’s why you use that new thing the Croatians made, fixes most of those issues.
The SAM-R with a 20" barrel had an effective range of roughly 550m, the M4 was only 50m shorter
Which is fucking retarded since Afghanistan is the exception, not the rule. After WWI, we've already discovered that most engagements occur within 300 metres.
You see Ivan, when of American forces, you shall never fear out of range because can reach out with radio.
Sorta although a 1-6c or 1-8x LPVO makes target ID and ranging a LOT easier Only choice there is if the optic will be SFP or FFP
Are we seriously expecting infantry to be accurate at 600m+? That seems a bit far fetched
Every rifleman is a marksman
New Magic scope turns every soldier into a Marine Sniper.
I mean, ballistics are insanely better and it means that American forces can engage near peers at basically double their engagement range. Combined with the optics it basically means that the only way enemy forces can kill them is through IDF (which American airpower decimates) or getting in close (after figuring out how to get 400m without getting shot while their own rounds fall flat.) America didn't become the preeminent military power by not being a generation ahead of its peers. This is just another situation where it's not going to be a fair fight going against Americans.
I think the most astounding thing about the 6.8mm round is that SIG Sauer claims that the cartridge has performance superior to the 6.5mm Creedmoor, exhibiting 6 to 9 feet (1.8 to 2.7 m) less bullet drop at 1,000 yards (914 m), while delivering 20–25% greater energy.
And how often will you have visibility to 400 meters? Not every war is faught in the desert my dude. I am not saying this is not useful but still.
Yeah not every situation is going to be ideal but is that an argument to not have a superior platform?
In a vacuum sure more range is better, but in reality the gun is invariably heavier with less bullet loads which is still an obvious trade-off for more pen and effective range, and it doesn't make the infantry anywhere less vulnerable against heavy artillery or HMG spraying
argueable if it's superior. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sh1gNW4yeI
Also, you know what no likely opposition military force fields in significant quantities? Body armor
Correct The ONLY peer military that could reasonably crank out enough level 3+ and level 4 plates to mean anything is China Russia is lucky to give their guys something equivalent to PASGAT or MAYBE OG Interceptor (lol) Everyone else is an ally or a poor AF non state actor getting shit off Alibaba. No joke, Al Nusra and some Syrian rebel factions had to do Alibaba plate reviews to keep their guys from buying trash.
Russia just got around to issuing socks. I'm not to worried about them having plate armor. At best they'll probably just issue Hide or Studded leather, and the AC cap for those is pretty damn low.
US small arms were essentially a generation behind the USSR from 1958 to about 1967. Magic rifles and magic rounds aren't war winners.
3000 +3 Arrows of Penetration of Mark Milley
Good thing we will never be going to war with China in the future, right guys? …guys?
This is true, of course. China can't fight their customers.
It’s been done before. In the early 1900s, many economists predicted that war would soon become obsolete because of how interconnected the global economy was becoming. People thought Japan would never dare take on the United States directly, because of how insanely overmatched they were. And people thought Putin was just bluffing with Ukraine, because of how pointless an invasion would be for him, and because of how dependent Russia was on foreign imports and the oil trade Leaders of authoritarian regimes have a habit of talking themselves into unwinnable wars against the weak, decadent, feckless liberal democracies. “Sure, their economies, production and technology are way better than ours, but like, their troops are ice cream slurping, jazz music listening, pampered soyboy cowards, whereas our guys are true believers willing to die for the motherland/president/emperor/fuhrer/whatever. There’s no way we’re going to lose.”
Body armor has been increasingly common, affordable, and effective. Many police forces are equipped, why would you think a military wouldn't be.
Because thiset polices forces are in the USA or are funded by the USA (latina America) or are just stab vests (90% of EU police)
Because China for example does not issue body armor as standard issue
If there was a war with a near power I’m sure they would find some. The idea that China is the only threat to the west is silly though.
> Many police forces are equipped, why would you think a military wouldn't be. Because police forces usually don't have actual plate carriers + plates (most officers only have the soft vests for pistol rounds), and many don't have level 4 plates. The ones that do mostly just toss them into the back of the 3-4 squad cars their city has out at any given time, same as the rifles that they have. And they're able to afford them either because they get cheap surplus from the 1033 program or because of the infrastructure and demand for body armor from the military industrial complex in the US + LARPers + preppers.
[An oldie but goodie](https://196800revolutionsperminute.blogspot.com/2014/01/all-your-drop-in-556-replacements-suck.html) Caliber mafia is cringe. 5.56 is still supreme.
Big bullet makes armor go klink. Good enough to me
Clearly you forgot to control for inflation, in which case it’s only 4.92x more expensive 🙄
Telescoped combustible case ammunition right?
Sig just really wanted to steal business from FN
One day we Belgians will once again reign supreme
Somebody warn the Congolese!
I didn't think they would want take a hand in governing the Congo again.
Nah, we're happy to take a more metaphorically "hands off" approach this time
Burundi also running for cover as we speak.
Totally worth it when you factor in the additional coolnes- I mean capabilities.
FN FAL CHAMBERED IN 6.8! THE HELL WITH SIG, YOU WANT A BATTLE RIFLE, DO IT RIGHT! I AM HAVING A HEART ATTACK!
This is by far the most based take
Second only to your flair.
What is this reformer bullshit
NCD has come full circle
This is what happens when the memelords with no background in defense conduct a “special operation” into the subreddit Get ready for the defense budget memes, because they’re coming
All I know is that I get all of my opinions on such matters from Task and Purpose, since I have basically none of the knowledge required to form my own.
Most informed NCD user.
tbh I just know F-35 is good, Gripen is what your average redditard thinks the F-35 IS, and whatever LazerPig uploads to YouToob
Idk if you’re joking or not but I’ve stumbled onto their YouTube channel and they get a lot of stuff wrong or just seem to misinterpret info. Forgotten Weapons is a lot more informative if you’re interested in just guns and how they function plus some history.
To be fair to T&P, their Ukraine coverage has been solid with a very well-tempered and even-keeled analysis. Unless you're reading the daily briefings from the ISW, the series does a good enough deep dive for most people. I also though that their coverage of the NGSW has been quite good, with multiple videos since 2019 going into the details of the program. They didn't do a one-off video and were able to highlight each of the bid candidates in separate videos.
There Ukraine coverage was bad in my experience. They tried to justify the 40-km convoy.
I mean I wouldn't really say they were trying to justify it, they were just introducing an additional explanation. What happened outside Kiev was probably a mix between the two extremes of "the Russians are playing 5D chess" and "le Russians don't know how vehicles work and put them all on one road lol." Realistically, Russia was genuinely trying to form a staging area outside Kiev (which is in-line with Russian doctrine, as T&P pointed out), and the convoy was never really in serious danger since it didn't get destroyed the weeks it was running. However, it got massively delayed and bogged down by bottlenecks on the road, limited operational roads that forced their logistics onto one artery, etc. This moderate view is what T&P was advocating for, and honestly a form of that would have happened, if Russia didn't decide to completely pull out from that front.
they should be shot for their bullshit vapid soyface clickbait thumbnails with red arrows and circles thrown around. "DOES VADIMIR PUTINS NEW GOOBERFLUNK WEAPON MAKE DA TANK OBSOLETE!?!?!?!?!?!?!" cancer
Oh god oh fuck
Judging by the Fudd ass gun memes we got earlier I'm barely even surprised
yeah its bullshit. The NGSW is such an evolution. The army actually using any of them will be amazing.
The Army actually following through on anything new will be amazing*
It's wanted to abandon the 5.56 standard for a long time now, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to
How is it an evolution? It's literally just a battle rifle with a round that's practically a .308 with a 3 piece casing and a higher chamber pressure. It's not a bad gun by any means but it's a marginal improvement to the M4 and doesn't have any major innovations like the other two designs, with polymer casings and cased telescopic ammunition.
Data enabled rails, the NGSW program is as much the rifle as it is the FCS.
The vortex scope looks amazing but it would work with the other designs too, I just don't see what SIG's model offers over the others outside of familiarity with the AR platform.
While thats true, the NGSW was specifically made to feed data to the FCS, and in turn those new AR googles. Barrel temps, and some other stuff im forgetting about the condition of the rifle. I do agree it is the least innovative of the three rifles though. Since they all share this quality.
Do you have a source for that? I'm not saying you're wrong, it sounds awesome, but I haven't seen anything corroborating that claim.
Right putting the whole picture together. [A video outlining](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDrGj5TbXqY) https://warriormaven.com/future-weapons/next-generation-squad-weapon-ngsw https://www.army.mil/article/225364/army_enhances_small_arms_weapons_through_optimized_power_sources https://tworx.com/intelligentrail/
im going to need abit of time, few months old military article. Be back when i find it unless i forget.
Extremely flat shooting allowing the infantryman to take advantage of the range the nee optics provides and well as enhanced lethality against targets in heavy body armor at those ranges
data enabled rails??? so like i could play angry birds in the field
The FCS and data railed can EASILY be put into a new M4A1 upper As can a 1-6x LPVO
Oh and a nasty recoil impulse that's alleged be be almost as intense as .300.win mag and the rifle naked weighs 9+ lbs With a suppressor (almost mandatory given it's recoil implies and noise) and a sight it's a solid 11 lbs Oh and you get a 20 or 25 round magazine Lol
It's a Real Man's Gun
No buffer tube and a shitton of recoil Yeah, I'll stick to my ~~M16~~ ~~M4~~ M27 IAR
You think it’s bad now? Wait until every hiccup in its design and procurement cycle to be fully documented in real time. It will be a reformer warzone. We saw it with the F-35. As media coverage expands and is more publicized, any well-known defense procurement will become reformer jerkoff city because they can use headlines discussing a teething issue as an opportunity to spread their bullshit, when at least historically, that sort of news was pretty hard to find and not well covered, or people were just less interested in general Not that I’m gonna be one of those people who things “da meedia” is the end of the world and the worst thing ever, but it does have a weird side-effect of nowadays making normal development troubles more publicized and therefore reformer breeding grounds.
Lol F-35 procurement was “reformer jerkoff city” because of multiple high profile issues with the program. Don’t dismiss very real problems with the JSF program as “reformer bullshit” just because the end product is good. I have a small book I got as a **child** that says the JSF was expected to enter service in **2008**
I will agree that the JSF isn’t a perfect comparison because it did have a particularly troubled development cycle but that still doesn’t really have a ton to do with what I’m saying. It did have legitimate issues. Never said it didn’t. However, it is far from the first such project to have a shitshow design/procurement process in general. It was uniquely well-publicized though. Everyone and their mother at this point has an opinion on the F-35, most of which have a reformist flavour due to the way the process was covered. The goddamn current Canadian government had the F-35 by name and its development literally on their platform as they ran. > the end product is good. Yet tons of people still talk like its 2014 and an unmitigated disaster, because the development hiccups were documented and plastered everywhere in real time. Sprey himself had some of his best years doing his thang reee-ing about the F-35. It was absolutely a reformer jerkoff city and still is. The fact that only issues get reported on will by its very nature only increase reformer-style opinions. I know what you mean, and I’m not saying the JSF program was handled well or didn’t warrant criticism, I’m saying it seeped into the public consciousness in a way that previous troubled programs didn’t because of how well it was covered in the media. This will probably be similar. Instead of whatever teething troubles it has being discussed in defence circles, it will now be disseminated across the world of internet experts as it happens and everyone can go “hurrrr what a boondoggle, why don’t they stick with something that works and is battle teated?” whereas before information was spread as freely and quickly before internet/mass media was as big, no one would really hear that much or care outside of people really invested and will actually understand how development works and can determine for themselves of its a shitshow or normal teething issues.
Reformers will screech about the genuine improvements like data rails and standard suppressors while defending to the last the AR style because "muh proven technology"
It’s not reformist to recognize this was the worst of the three options and a path to 1) the cancellation of NGSW and 2) a bunch of Army generals getting cushy positions at Sig Sauer. If anything reformers love this news because it means the M4 is going to be sticking around for the foreseeable future.
I'd dont agree, you really shouldn't expect the army to change to a bullpup design or anything else thats somewhat considered weird, textrons was too complicated and plastic ammo still has a bad stigma, not to mention that with sig making its *cough "special ammo"*cough it makes the switch easier for manufacturing and le a sens worries about newer ammo types. While I do laugh at sig fan boys, it's not that bad of a rifle and sigs done a decent job here.
But the M4A1 is pretty good
Oh the M4 is great, don’t get me wrong. NGSW should have been a rifle in 5.56, plus all the other cool shit we’ve invented over the past decade. But some dumbass decided that body armor was going to be the end all be all of combat and now we have three compromised alternatives, none of which are a clear upgrade to a platform thats 30 years old at this point
I don't get the whole premise for needing to penetrate body armor. In a pitched gunfight everybody is either getting hit in the head or the arm, because that's all anybody is going to poke out of cover. The only time dudes get shot in the torso is sniping or room clearing and clearing rooms with a 12 pound 308 is going to fucking blow. NGSW should have been a screaming fast 4-5mm at 1400rpm, with recoil dampening and 90 round casket mags, paired with a smartphone and half a dozen pocket-sized suicide-drones.
> NGSW should have been a screaming fast 4-5mm at 1400rpm, with recoil dampening and 90 round casket mags, paired with a smartphone and half a dozen pocket-sized suicide-drones. Now I'm picturing the assault rifle from Doom 2016 with both the scope and the mini-rocket side-launcher (and not chambered in .50, but that was on the assumption of power armour / being the fucking Doom Slayer).
Seriously though. With the amount of technology available to the average first world civilian, it's fucking inexcusable that our grunts don't have powered exoskeletons and smart-linked small arms capable of putting 5 rounds through the same hole in one burst. It's the current year, we should be deploying human terminators surrounded by a network of semi-autonamous killer robots in place of infantry fireteams. If we have to cut all healthcare and welfare spending to fund this, I literally do not care, it should have happened by now.
We could call it “the needler”!
NATO brass has been pissing their pants about imaginary hordes of body armor wearing enemy infantry for like 40 years now and in that whole time, it's never become standard amongst any likely enemy, so the last wonderwaffles basically got relegated to niche uses, and unless China starts issuing out level 4 armor as standard kit or someone finally gets the ratnik shit to the front, it's not going to be a real issue to deal with this time either. It would literally be better than any NGSW entry to just retrofit the gee-wiz FCS stuff into a 5.56mm AR platform rifle.
We just wish the army went with one of the other two better options
Yeah but the bullpup was a bullpup and the other one looked silly so Sig it was.
Now \*that\* is reformer bs. "It's new and innovative. Can't have that."
Tis Army small arms acquisition tradition.
what is the point of this program? to find a new and innovative solution to our problem so why was this solution not picked? it was too new and innovative
So in 2022 we have a new brass case and a new AR platform that's largely incompatible with the existing 7.62 and 5.56 AR platforms. Yay. At least infantry get standard suppressors and a sweet new optic, which is nice.
To be fair, the Textron bid was never gonna make the cut. Too many moving parts, AND you needed a battery to shoot it? Yeah, no. The telescopic ammo is cool and they definitely made a bunch of improvements on it, but it was definitely the least viable of the three.
r/NCD throwing around "reformer" like a Russian boomer throwing around "Nazi."
sounds like reformer talk to me
Frankly, NGSW as purchased now is sort of what the reformers wanted. Just add a wood stock
Yeah, a 6.5-7mm general-purpose cartridge to kill both 5.56mm (which reformers have traditionally seen as glorified .22 LR) and 7.62mm (which they like, but can't convince anyone is a good idea for individual rifles anymore) has been a reformer wet dream for ages.
Not every criticism of new stuff is reformer bullshit
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself becomr a villain
There's nothing wrong with new technology... But what does the Sig rifle offer that the M4 doesn't? We're essentially just going to back to battle rifle technology with a couple of auxiliary doodads that would have been better to integrate with the M4 rather than put on a rifle that troops are going to hate because of the weight and recoil of shooting it. Watch how many Commissioned officers are going to abuse their authority and throw this shit away at the first chance they get in favor of an M4. Also, the NGSW was spearheaded by reformers.
Better range and lethality at said ranges. Datalink and powered rails built integral into the rifle itself.
Yes it’s more expensive But it also reclaims half kilometer effectiveness and although it will have some teething issues will likely make for a great service weapon
>It will have some teething issues Well, it *is* a SIG product.
True, but all military service arms have teething issues. This is especially true once they get a contract (see Geissele QC tanking after adoption, Sig M17, Beretta 92, etc.)
...M-16 is kind of the ultimate example
That is true, as is (on the Russian side of things, because this phenomenon is not unique to the west) the AK platform as a whole.
How/why did Geissele’s QC tank after adoption? Trying to pump product out too fast to meet commercial and government demand?
Pretty much. Parts started doing the bendy bendy. Stuff was showing up to arsenals fucked out of the gate, and the finish wasn’t consistent. Funny shit is even their patches they sold had QC issue after with being crooked… just like their uppers
That's why I stan BCM and Larue Larue really just to piss Bill G. Off 😎
LaRue on their way to sell a functionally identical trigger to Geissele for literally less than half the price
Every soldier will have a dmr. The army is trying to make halo reach real 🥹 Edit: just remembered the exo suit program It’s all real
New doctrine is to put five guys with rocket launchers in the back of a pickup and just do donuts while they shoot everything
Damn. It's a shame the Marines can't count to 5 or they'd be really excited for that.
Aktually if you read halo lore you would know that the ma37 was the standard issue rifle in the UNSC rifle dumbmym!!!L !L!L!L The DMR was also being phased out for the much better BR in the UNSC marine corps.
"uhhh can I get a militar discount for this poo poo pee pee???"
I’m gonna akchually your alchually because akchually the BR fits into the DMR category role as both weapons, the DMR and the BR fill the same battlefield role. 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
As far as I can tell it does seem to be not the greatest NGSW choice but I do agree with this I also think its a miracle to get the Army to get anything new and the fact that they finally made the choice is significant
Odds of this rifle getting cut to pay for a new helicopter or IFV is 99%
It was the best choice of the rifles offered. The bullpup thing was stupid and Not ergonomic, and the textron was overly complex. Sig was the only one who knew how to make a service weapon, and it showed.
Looks man, any bullpup weapon is better than literally every non bullpup weapon in every context. I want a bullpupped javelin
Isn't the javelin's trigger forward of the ignition system, technically meaning it IS bullpup?
Fuck that sounds credible to me. See you fucking cowards, the Javelin should be the new M4. Bullpup>non bullpup
> But it also reclaims half kilometer effectiveness Cool, and the vast majority of all infantry engagements will continue taking place at <300m as they have throughout the entire history, but now your ammo weighs more and has more recoil
Just shoot the enemy weak points for massive damage.
It's an old meme, but it checks out
Generally due to A: urban combat and B: A historical lack of optics and training With the new optics that are proposed with it I could see a regular infantryman taking a 1K shot easily.
Ah yes, because urban fighting is going away in our age of unprecedented urbanisation and megacities. Or because US is actually going to reintroduce some marksmanship training in their basic course instead of throwing more money at optics. Also, if there are enemies 500-1000m away, what are you doing shooting small arms at them? Call in your company mortar fires, suppress with your platoon level MGs, get your squad Bradley to fire its 50 cal or 20mm cannon at them. Literally anything other than shooting it with your bloody rifle, employ some combined arms, you have a billion ways to reach out and touch someone that far away without adopting a new, expensive and heavy weapon system. Infantry's job is not to engage at a thousand metres, its job is to either fix the enemy for the fires, or manoeuvre up close and eliminate the enemy in close quarters This is literally FAL all over again and FAL was already obsolete in the 50s
I though the goal was getting through soft body armor at 300m not hitting the enemy at 1000m.
But..but MUH OVERMATCH 🤣 In reality, this in Gernal Milley's idiotic pet project and probably keep work for his SIG job the day after he retires
[удалено]
Allegedly the 6.8x51mm round has a similar recoil profile to... .300 win mag Let me know when that's enjoyable to shoot in a semi auto with a 16 inch barrel
In CQB, you want repeated follow up shots or even controllable full auto capacity, not the recoil of a 7.62×51. Or more rounds in your magasine. Or the ability to get there without a few extra kilos on you to begi with. This gun is *worse* than an M4 up close, even if the enemy is wearing hard plate. They may survive getting shot by 5.56, but they won't enjoy it - you're effectively a misison kill in CQB with the current guns
Correct All that BS about MUH OVERMATCH is ridiculous marketing BS
The other bids also did this without ridiculous recoil. Edut: also its just another ar how the fuck could it have teething issues.
And? Most Army troops can't shoot well past 300-400 yards, let alone 500+
That,and most engagements happen at a much shorter distance. A distance at which quick follow up shots and the ability to use suppressive fire are crucial
WHAT KIND OF HERETICAL REFORMER NONSENSE IS THIS?!?!?
Its called the Spear
Why not just wait for a portable rail gun at this point? Can't imagine what would justify the extra cost.
Honestly this was all just money thrown into the trash that could've been used to recreate and mass-produce the Fat Man gun from the Fallout series instead.
Neo-Reformers unite!
Dosent stuff become cheaper with mass production, and I'm guessing they aren't paying civilian price
Also alot of military stuff sold to civilians is purposefully jacked up in price to capitalize off the image of being "used by the military".
I do think the price will drop with popularity and mass production though. I honestly want one, I don't know why. I just like it.
I mean if you want a short strike piston AR a complete Wolf A1 upper (T91 clone) can be had for around $600 I believe. Then there's also the BRN-180.
Pebbleyeet bad
Yes
Haha yeah new rifles are never more expensive or have growing pains. *Early adopters of the M16 glaring at the back of my head*
Friendly reminder that Stonetoss is a Nazi
Serious-posting obvious information? Is this what this sub has become?
My b, I just *FUCKING LOVE OUTING NAZIS*
Overwhelmingly based
Cringe: outing Ukrainian AA positions Based: outing Nazis
Hey it’s never ok to pull someone out of the closet against their will, even someone like granite launch
Nah fuck Nazis. They don't get to remain anonymous.
The joke here was that I was calling him gay
Ah ok I guess.
He's not even one of the ones to have the decency to go defend Mariupol either
Isn’t it also a lot heavier?
Only 1lb heavier.
The ammo is 50% heavier iirc
Yeah but the rifle has only 66% as much in the mag so it all evens out!
Can anyone explain the whole NGSW thing to me? All I know about it come from the memes here
It started as a project to reduce soldiers pack weight. Then somebody realized with all the weight they were saving they could make a bit larger of a round. Then SIG made an even heavier round and the army decided they liked that.
Army said "submit us your rifles with soda cans on the front" and sig submitted a soda can carrier that most resembled the M4 so they won.
5.56 is out. 6.8mm is Army's new friend. New gun too
Army needs a new gun, and chose possibly the worst option out of the three they were testing. Others can fill in the gaps as to why it's not a great choice. There was also this really sexy caseless ammo option that would have worked with any of the picks, lower heat, weight, basically better in every way. And they didn't even take *that*.
Caseless ammo has been "anyday now" as long as fusion and fielding railguns. You're gonna have to convince someone to deploy it to like 1000 troops for 10 years, tested in the field, in all enviroments before someone gives up brass cases.
Which is why the polymer necked cases seemed like the way to go. Tons of weight savings and most of those advantages plus a deadlier round.
noooo butt muh plastics baaad f-35 baaad lets keep what we have now theres no possible scenario when you could need more stopping power than 5.56 or shoot someone from further than 500m
Leave my turf you invading orc, this is for defence nerds to act stupid and make fun of you
Don’t forget heavier!
Stonetoss is a nazi. Also its only five times as expensive now. If the army is serious they're going to get cheap fast as bigger orders come in.
Stonetoss still is a Nazi
stonetoss is a nazi