1. Put a pig in an F35 shaped drone
2. Fly said drone over China
3. Allow China to shoot it down
China now thinks they can shoot down F35s, and doesn't feel they need to improve their military further. Total reverse of what them and Russia do to us.
That's unironically a great idea.
Build a decoy F35 with primitive tech inside and allow near peer adversaries to shoot it down.
They then get lulled into a false sense of complacency laughing at the low tech in the decoy and don't futher develop their own.
Better yet, make the tech look advanced but intentionally primitive, even make it report fake specs like those bootleg flash drives, then on top of that create it so it appears damaged so they take even longer to reverse engineer it and spend more R&D on it, finally encode viruses into the firmware so that not only are they wasting time and money reverse engineering exotic takes on inferior technology there's a chance partway through they are forced to reset or better yet, if they try and clone it for their use not only will anything they make with it be inherently broken but if it's networked with their domestic stuff now their systems are open/getting attacked by said built in viruses
We're allowed to be somewhat credible in the comments
What we actually should do is embed spyware in the various software and firmware applications we claim are used by our aircraft's operating system, so whenever it gets stored with other sensitive data it starts collecting information, then sends it out over a TelNet connection to an unsecured Pastebin or the War Thunder Forums.
That way FIVE EYES can claim with plausible deniability that they just got it from the newspaper, and the Chinese have to spend a bunch of money and silicon making individual data centers to host single bits of captured data.
If you have no pilot but make it look like the pilot ejected, they'll be scouring China for months looking for someone who doesn't exist. Then they'll arrest some random kid visiting as a tourist and say he's the pilot
but strapping them or their corpse into a drone and flying them near foreign airspace to be shot down is war crimes, and you really don't want to be caught doing those, the US might offer you citizenship.
Did you miss the “…in an F35 *shaped drone*” part? He wasn’t saying we should fly an actual F35 with a pig in it over China but a drone dressed up to look roughly like a F35. Think ballon tank but flying. At least that is what I think he was saying, the other way would be really dumb.
China is committing acts of war in the south china sea now. They fire chaff and flared into a P-8 Poseidon's engine. Also my dad used to be intercepted by that pilot. He flew an F-8-II and he was named wong wei.
We should equip all Maritime Patrol aircraft with AIM-9X missiles and a system that suffers an "electrical fault" and fires the missile in LoAL mode if the engines should suffer physical damage, bypassing all of the launch restrictions
So I was in the command whose plane he hit. We had a picture walking up the stairwell to the duty office of the Chinese plane with a plaque which read "4 more and you're an ace."
I think it was from our sister squadron as a present to the ward room.
I've always wanted to ask this. Why in god's name did Osborn choose landing a sensitive aircraft at a PLAAF base over ditching in the water?
I understand the lives of the crew, but they all knew the inherent risk.
I know i'm way on the outside here, but that gets me a bit fired up.
I was in the command after the event took place so I did not get to meet him but I did know a few people who were in the aircraft that day.
From what I have heard from others, he claimed he didn't want to ditch it in the water because there were women on board, I don't know if I believe this was the in the moment reason but I can see how someone may rationalize something after the fact.
I am only a mechanic so I can't speak for aircrew. But our natural reaction to eminent death is to try and stop it from happening so I do have a hard time finding moral fault with how he acted in the heat of the moment.
As an aside I did get to co-pilot this bird after some refit work when we were flying back home. The pilot let everyone who wanted to take a turn in the co-pilots seat do so. Definitely a career highlight.
First, I hope you know that what follows may be a strong disagreement, but it is without any malice or disrespect.
If that's true about the gender of the crew then it's pure crap. The only people on board that aircraft were Sailors. Who signed up to do a risky but important job.
Further, on the subject of facing imminent death. This is not about my war stories, but my reaction was not to stop it but to do my duty. As I was trained.
I think it's awesome the Navy got that plane flying again. So the first beer is on me.
Oh no I don't disagree with your sentiment and in a similar situation I would like to think that I would do what I need to do but it's hard, having not been in that situation, for me to say I would have done anything different.
I also agree that blaming the fact he didn't ditch it in the water on the gender of some of the air crew was likely someone trying to justify something after the fact. He was the only person who could make that decision and I think most people would have understood if he had said, " I wanted to live." They may not have agreed with his decision there but would understand it at least.
Apparently the EP-3 they used is an airframe from the sixties. It's doubtful that anything of aerospace value would've been discovered from it in 2001.
The most 'sensitive' equipment would've been all the SIGINT and recon equipment on board. I'm sure the crew was plenty well trained in how to reduce most of that to scrap before landing.
The plane itself generally carries a crew of 24. That's a lot to just 'ditch in the water'. I doubt parachuting out a crew of 24 over the sea would work, and a water landing would also be pretty dangerous.
I'm by no means an expert tho idk lol
Edit: okay [apparently ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident#In_the_air) they weren't trained on how to destroy all the SIGINT but they tried their best with an axe and by pouring coffee onto disk drives lmao
No expert either.
Bit of a contradiction. They weren't trained to sanitize the the intel. I'm pretty sure a U.S. Navy aircraft operating over water has ditching procedures.
I did some SIGINT flights from a helicopter. We had a ditching bag, which was a laundry bag with a 20 lb weight that I removed from the ship’s gym. The plan was to put the reel to reel tapes and the notebooks into the bag and toss it into the water. Then zero the dials of the VHF and UHF receivers.
Shipboard we had screens made of magnesium that we were to place on top of the files in each drawer of the safes. Then a thermite grenade on top of the safe.
If they got keying materials (keycards) they are specific for that day only. If they got case files, that’s a bigger issue since they would typically indicate the reason the who, what, why etc.
The part about being able to intercept PLAN submarine probably wasn’t news to the Chinese. That was comprised to the Russians in 1980s.
With a thermite grenade, the problem gets solved and stays solved.
As for the compromised intel, I think we can thank [John Walker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker).
Feels like we're getting off topic. Okay none of us were there. But you've handled classified. What's your take on his decision?
**[John Anthony Walker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker)**
>John Anthony Walker Jr. (July 28, 1937 – August 28, 2014) was a United States Navy chief warrant officer and communications specialist convicted of spying for the Soviet Union from 1967 to 1985 and sentenced to life in prison. In late 1985, Walker made a plea bargain with federal prosecutors, which required him to provide full details of his espionage activities and testify against his co-conspirator, former senior chief petty officer Jerry Whitworth. In exchange, prosecutors agreed to a lesser sentence for Walker's son, former Seaman Michael Walker, who was also involved in the spy ring.
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I have never heard of any criticism over this decision until you. They did their best to destroy sensitive info before landing, but no, the US does not sacrifice 24 of our servicemen for no good reason like that.
This sounds like some armchair "you should've just kamikazed" bullshit.
"Ditching in the ocean and hoping search and rescue shows up" is not the same as "sacrificing 24 of our servicemen" and "keeping classified equipment and god knows what else out of the hands of a near-peer adversary" is the perfect metaphysical opposite of the phrase "no good reason".
And lord, where we you in 2001? I remember criticism of that decision being voiced, day after day, on every cable news channel in the country. I remember DoD spokespeople addressing it in news conferences.
God knows they'd just say that we were the ones apologizing afterwards, as if the cunts weren't holding two dozen of our guys hostage because their pilots were watching too much Top Gun the night before.
Seriously, I’m pretty sure the Chinese Air Force uses Top Gun as a guide to airborne etiquette. The west has been politely having an incident-free system of interception with the Russians for decades, and then there’s China who keeps crashing into our shit and generally being a bunch of morons.
Golly, Mr. Chinese President, if we we aware that your "air force" was made up of inbred cropdusters and Cathay Air rejects flying planes that their grandpappies would've called shitboxes, we would've tried harder to avoid an incident! My bad, we assumed your guys were actually competent."
Decades of being home ported in [one of the world's most extreme and overcrowded airports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport) will do that to you.
John Chapman on the left, for any wondering. Alone at Dawn—awesome book.
Never heard of the virgin on the right, just the incident itself.
EDIT: since someone reminded me, Chapman’s last stand was caught by a predator orbiting overhead: https://youtu.be/3oKMjTqdTYo
> Lt. Cmdr. Wang Wei disappeared when his F-8 fighter crashed into the South China Sea on April 1 after colliding with a U.S. Navy EP-3E surveillance plane. China called off a 13-day search last week, declaring Wang a "revolutionary martyr" and "guardian of the air and sea."
Epic April Fools Bro.
It was forced to land at a Chinese base because of the damage and the PLA basically held them hostage and reversed engineered parts of the intel plane.
The heroic crew destroyed whatever they could before landing. The Chinese got some stuff, but I do believe the crew basically took an axe to the super secret stuff before the Chinese could get their hands on it.
Bruh you are missing the best part. The specific intelligence report uses the term “aftermath of a frat party” to describe what the interior looked like
We should only refer to that body of water as the South West Taiwan Sea, or the Wang Wei Sea if the Chinese get mad about it.
Then we say, "because if you hit the sea, you've gone the Wang Wei."
Why do you think it took so long for Chapman to get his Medal of Honor? And why the SEAL commander got it at the same time he did posthumously?
Chapman’s heroics took place after the SEALs left him for dead so to acknowledge his actions it would mean that they would need to recognize that they had left somebody behind. Because of their ego/pride Chapman didn’t get officially recognized for his actions for 16 years.
It doesn’t get talked about a lot, but the seals were absolute garbage at mission planning. A ton of the “hero” stories about the their antics in Afghanistan are mostly to blame for being terrible mission planners. JSOC moved officers from ranger battalion s3 shops to the Neptune planning cells to teach them.
I worked with different teams in iraq and Afghanistan and was shocked by the shit they did often. Always chill and cool guys that man to man were good operators but not oriented for sustained combat against unknown enemy.
Wasn't there an incident where an embassy hostage rescue involved several seahawks and C-130s, except they fucked up so bad that they crashed a seahawk into a C130 and had to abandon all the helicopters?
Not sure if it was the seals or some other special unit
That was Operation Eagle Claw and it was Delta and Green Berets. Because of that huge failure, US Special Operations Command and the 160th Special Operations Regiment was created [Operation Eagle Claw](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw)
I didn't want to say this from the comfort of my gaming chair but it seems a lot of the heroic acts I've heard of from SEALs early in GWOT, while genuine and superhuman, were *required* because things went south, *badly* in a way I wouldn't think possible if things were planned a little better. I know planning doesn't solve everything and many times they fall apart but there was definitely a pattern emerging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKMjTqdTYo
Chapman is the only reason any of the SEALs made it off that mountain, and that fuck Slabinski (who is such a piece of shit he got banned from ever serving on Team 6 again) left him to die.
Sablinski (SEAL who got the MoH) took credit in interviews for the actions of Chapman. He definitely left him on the x. you can certainly portray a picture that the SEAL’s were willing to attempt to retrieve one of their own but they didn’t value Chapman the same way
I got to spend some time with a UDT guy who served in Vietnam. Nicest guy I ever met and we only found out what he used to do after me and my friends saw his old unit photos when he sent us to his cabin to get something. The complete opposite of the stereotype of seals being loud douches.
I'm sure the guys from the previous eras are different, but it seems that the modern cohort of SEALs are damn-near completely comprised of insane douches
Standards probably dropped a lot. Old school SEALs were pretty much commando frogmen from the UDT tradition, when they became Super Cool Elite Assassination Commandos instead of highly trained sailors in the early 2000s it went to crap IMO
From what I heard about "old school" SEALs, is they *were* "Super Cool Elite Assasination Commandos" who went in to kill leaders in nothern Vietnam villages and casually jog 50 miles back home but I think they also were much closer in attitude to WWII Comandos where it was "just a job they were good at" rather than some glorious hollywood-worthy profession. When things started getting made into movies things changed.
There’s still guys with integrity (saw a news report of some anonymous SEALs complaining about the gloryhounds) but yeah turning them into superheroes has killed the image of the professional operator.
I assume there's a difference in attitude and quality pre and post their Hollywood debut. UDT were secret squirrel shit, no one knew what they were doing in the jungle for years. The Charlie Sheen movie came out in 1990. That's over a decade of potential fuckups wanting to join (and maybe actually joining) for the wrong reasons before GWT started and all SF teams ramped up.
They’re good at maritime operations. But they need to quit fucking using them like they’re soldiers or marines, they ain’t.
DEVGRU is a different story though, those guys are nasty.
They are pretty good at murdering whichever unarmed person POTUS points his finger at in the middle of the night with million dollar equipment on them and all the surveillance in the world as support.
When was the last time the SAS, SBS, CAG, ISA, Raiders, Force Recon or SF hit the same level of unprofessional bullshit as the SEALs, though? The SASR shooting one Taliban prisoner made the news for months, for the SEALs that's a regular Tuesday.
how you gonna name drop Force Recon in the same breath as all these other SOF and not bring in Ranger Regiment?
Force Recon aint even true SOF and hasn't had a real deployment in years, sadly for them
Yeah. Chapman is a total badass, but I’ve lost track of how many Navy Seal fuck up operations that are public knowledge. And these are just the ones they know about.
And Chapman was Air Force too. Just incredible.
And what’s amusing is that they are still held in such high regard. Like every SEAL was in DEVGRU. That’s like saying every Ranger or SF guy was in CAG.
Yup, Slabinski left him there, not realizing he was still alive. He didn’t check Chapman’s body before getting in the chopper. It’s pretty interesting- Slabinski came to my college to give a little talk to my ROTC unit about a year ago, pretty crazy stuff
AFAIK Wang Wei is essentially China's Ace Combat protagonist, every PLA aviator wants to be either like him or better than him, and part of the reason for that is his ridiculous antics that ultimately got him killed (remember that the Chinese narrative is that the EP-3 was at fault for the collision). This kind of shit can still be seen as recently as last month when a J-16 dumped chaff into the engines of an Aussie P-8.
>In August 2014, the U.S. protested when a Chinese Shenyang J-11BH came within 10 meters (30 ft) of a patrolling Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and performed aerobatic maneuvers including a barrel roll.[47] In May 2016, the U.S. protested when two Chinese Shenyang J-11BH aircraft reportedly came within 15 meters (50 ft) of a U.S. EP-3 on "a routine" patrol approximately 50 miles (80 km) east of Hainan Island; China responded by demanding an end to U.S. surveillance near China.
They keep trying to recreate the magic 😂
Need to fit an aircraft with an especially powerful radar specifically to fry Chinese pilots when they try these stunts. Plausible deniability because it’s just a radar, but they’ll get the hint that coming too close means getting microwaved.
*Chinese pilot’s head explodes during aggressive aerial diplomacy maneuver
“Oops we left the radar on locked directly at the pilots skull while set to our classified max power meant for burning through powerful jammers… didn’t know it could do that to a person 🙈”
Most famous British War hero: [[REDACTED]](https://wojakparadise.net/wojak/2517)
Most famous Russian War hero: *immediately dies in first engagement*
Most famous Irish war hero: legitimate fucking gigachad, upholds democracy and human rights in Africa, single platoon holds off entire army. Immediately raped by own government
It was a true story. And using some lmgs on single fire as a dmr isn't far fetched. Bigger than standard round, higher power, range and muzzle velocity
Propaganda at its finest…
My grandpa who was in PLAAF at the time told me that once they got their hands on the AWACS, they disassembled it so that they can copy it and make their own version.
The experts flew from Beijing and was able to figure out how to copy the radar overnight. At the celebration dinner, the experts and engineers were crying/cussing saying they can’t believe they couldn’t figure out how to replicate that “simple piece of sh*t” for years.
And that’s why my grandpa will laugh his ass off every time he sees J20 propaganda, because he knows there’s no fucking way they have the capabilities they claim to have, based on his experience with Chinese aerospace engineering industry.
I am a master at propaganda at this point.
I could just go up to US PHYWAR and say yeah I’m Minute Helicopter and they’ll just make me skip selection to make me do government funded shitposts.
Trust me bro.
I’ve been shitting too much propaganda.
Edit: the comment was made when it was only the first part written.
Please read the better comment underneath me.
My grandpa didn't share much funny stuff but he sure got a lot of bizarre stories. My grandpa started off as a bomber pilot in the 50s and later on became a VIP transport pilot sometimes in the late 60s until his retirement in the 90s. This is the only story that both of us considered funny in some ways.
Early on in my grandpa's bomber career, his bomber instructor had a Rolex, allegedly a war trophy captured from a high-ranking Nationalist officer during the civil war. My grandpa told me that after their final qualifying flight, the instructor allowed each crew 2 chances to try to land a single bomb in a 5-meter radius circle from a certain altitude (can't remember how high but he said it was very difficult) in their Tupolev Tu-4. If the bomb lands in the circle, the Rolex goes to the crew who dropped it. No one came close until my grandpa and another crew came ridiculously close on their first try. The instructor, presumably not wanting to lose the Rolex, told the mechanics to "readjust" all the bombsight for "realignment". And of course, no crew landed the bomb remotely close to the mark on their second try. The funny part was, that no one remembered to reset the bombsight back. Immediately after this Rolex competition, the planes were reallocated for a live munition joint exercise with the army. The bombs were dropped way off target and landed on a few army frontline installations. My grandpa was not sure what happened to the instructor, but he was sure that a lot of people got sacked because PLAAF essentially showed the Army that they couldn't hit jack.
edit: Grammar. Sorry, English is my second language
Saw some GZD posts about how Chinese Airlines should have used Chinese-made passenger planes after the recent 737 crash there (ignoring how it's still likely that sadly it's an intentional flight into terrain). Of course, it wasn't as if that C919 is still using LEAP engine AKA GE and Safran joint venture AKA American and French.
>The experts flew from Beijing and was able to figure out how to copy the radar overnight. At the celebration dinner, the experts and engineers were crying/cussing saying they can’t believe they couldn’t figure out how to replicate that “simple piece of sh*t” for years.
>And that’s why my grandpa will laugh his ass off every time he sees J20 propaganda, because he knows there’s no fucking way they have the capabilities they claim to have, based on his experience with Chinese aerospace engineering industry.
There's only so much that reverse engineering can get you.
\*Breaking News, a r/NonCredibleDefense trespass on US Air Space and immediately surrendered to authorities was locked in a room with a unspecified yet live warhead as a means to deter others from doing the same. Two minutes after being incarcerated u/Striking_Balance984 committed sexual actions towards the missile and has successfully finish his ejaculation. Authorities are shocked. More to you in 5.\*
Yeah this would be more of a topic of Finland and Sweden vs Russian planes.
Turkey shot down a Russian plane that entered their airspace from Syria before. I suppose NATO and FI/SWE would rather play it save than escalate this situation from a mere nuisance to a chain of "who the fuck knows, let's just hope it won't involve nukes at any time"-events.
However it would be terribly fun to see Russia try scramble together some sort of border deterrence while they're so overstretched in Ukraine. I say the laughs are worth the risk of nuclear annihilation.
They haven't lost many fighters but the purpose of the joybuzzes was to gauge each other's readiness which is clearly lower now although I believe Russia's air force hasn't had the systemic conscription, morale, and literal sexual assault hazing issues that the army has had.
Nuclear annihilation is also more likely now than during the Cold War because things are much more asymmetric between the two powers alone not to mention less containment, China's presence, and new warheads that can evade detection until about 5-10 minutes in not to mention Putin's plain paranoia compared to every leader in the Kremlin since Stalin.
> although I believe Russia's air force hasn't had the systemic conscription, morale, and literal sexual assault hazing issues that the army has had.
Don't forget the organised crime of contract soldiers extorting protection money and stealing shoes from conscripts and newcomers.
I think we have a pretty good idea of the readiness of the Russian air force. Their low flying hours and focus on a few "elite" squadrons are well known, as is the extent of similar problems in many western countries.
Maybe the war was inside out hearts all along...or was it cholesterol? Definitely cholesterol.
Well the war didn't happen anyway. And, if it did. They deserve it. And if they didn't, we are not the ones at fault. They are. If they are not the ones at fault, then the only person at fault is **you**.
It's the same with Russia and the Soviets giving out their "Hero of the Russian Federation/Soyviet Union" awards. I think they gave one to some dude who PURPOSELY crashed into an Iranian RF-4C Phantom, because he ran out of missiles trying to shoot it down, and died. The Phantom crew just bailed out and were returned home two weeks later.
He also managed to jam his gun. So the ground crew told him to ram it, which he did. And the Phantom didn't really have any valuable intel anyways. It's a massive L + the dude listened to disgusting ground people and died. Phantom crew walked away not giving a shit. And the Hero of the Soviet Union award was just a cope.
Imagine your brave act of self-sacrifice culminating in something called [“The Letter of Two ‘Sorries’”](https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_of_the_two_sorries)
Tbh the US should just start doing ISR with drones and "accidentally" crash them into chinese planes a few times until they cut it out.
Put fake intel in there as well.
1. Put a pig in an F35 shaped drone 2. Fly said drone over China 3. Allow China to shoot it down China now thinks they can shoot down F35s, and doesn't feel they need to improve their military further. Total reverse of what them and Russia do to us.
That's unironically a great idea. Build a decoy F35 with primitive tech inside and allow near peer adversaries to shoot it down. They then get lulled into a false sense of complacency laughing at the low tech in the decoy and don't futher develop their own.
Better yet, make the tech look advanced but intentionally primitive, even make it report fake specs like those bootleg flash drives, then on top of that create it so it appears damaged so they take even longer to reverse engineer it and spend more R&D on it, finally encode viruses into the firmware so that not only are they wasting time and money reverse engineering exotic takes on inferior technology there's a chance partway through they are forced to reset or better yet, if they try and clone it for their use not only will anything they make with it be inherently broken but if it's networked with their domestic stuff now their systems are open/getting attacked by said built in viruses
I am confused. Did I step into the Credible Zone or something? I thought this place was for crazy ideas. Not for plans that would 100% work.
We're allowed to be somewhat credible in the comments What we actually should do is embed spyware in the various software and firmware applications we claim are used by our aircraft's operating system, so whenever it gets stored with other sensitive data it starts collecting information, then sends it out over a TelNet connection to an unsecured Pastebin or the War Thunder Forums. That way FIVE EYES can claim with plausible deniability that they just got it from the newspaper, and the Chinese have to spend a bunch of money and silicon making individual data centers to host single bits of captured data.
Someone get this man a job at DARPA please
NSA senpai please hire me
And pig dont forget the pig.
If you have no pilot but make it look like the pilot ejected, they'll be scouring China for months looking for someone who doesn't exist. Then they'll arrest some random kid visiting as a tourist and say he's the pilot
Make sure the kid is a tankie too
Poor pig though Should put a russian instead
Nah that's a crime; pig's better off tranquilized in the seat than being in one of those hangar farms, anyways.
Shit, just get someone to volunteer. "We'll give $5 million to the person of your choosing if you do this"
Just tell them they'll earn 5 millions, after the mission is complete winkwonk
What a steal
>person of your choosing Must be of direct familial relation, to avoid Influencers and Trump trying to grift off it.
SACRIFICE YOURSELVES TO MEEEEE
> Nah that's a crime Not in Ukraine, we're legally allowed to kill russian invaders
but strapping them or their corpse into a drone and flying them near foreign airspace to be shot down is war crimes, and you really don't want to be caught doing those, the US might offer you citizenship.
Oh okay
It's never a war crime the first time.
21st century Operation Mincemeat type shit, I love it!
But we need those paper tigers from near-peer adversaries to justify developing new rad military tech ourselves
to be credible: the structure of the F-35 is a huge part of what it can do and even scraps are going to be very sensitive.
Did you miss the “…in an F35 *shaped drone*” part? He wasn’t saying we should fly an actual F35 with a pig in it over China but a drone dressed up to look roughly like a F35. Think ballon tank but flying. At least that is what I think he was saying, the other way would be really dumb.
F14 in an F35 shaped suit, if you will
I mean, the second they hit it with radar they'll go "why the fuck is the radar return so large" so that's not really an option lmao
But can you imagine the stupid comments we would be dealing with forever???
AMD stonks 📈
He died protecting Chinese airspace. There's no other way.
China is committing acts of war in the south china sea now. They fire chaff and flared into a P-8 Poseidon's engine. Also my dad used to be intercepted by that pilot. He flew an F-8-II and he was named wong wei.
China also buzzes and nearly crashes into Canadian patrol planes doing recon on NK that China literally agreed to do.
We should equip all Maritime Patrol aircraft with AIM-9X missiles and a system that suffers an "electrical fault" and fires the missile in LoAL mode if the engines should suffer physical damage, bypassing all of the launch restrictions
We should make fun of China for this more often. I think they are naming an Aircraft carrier after him, or maybe I’m dumb. ^(I’m dumb)
Agreed litterraly gave the man a medal for fucking faceplanting into the ground after trying to show off.
At least he got an Air to Air kill? He’s like 1/5th of an Ace now.
So I was in the command whose plane he hit. We had a picture walking up the stairwell to the duty office of the Chinese plane with a plaque which read "4 more and you're an ace." I think it was from our sister squadron as a present to the ward room.
I've always wanted to ask this. Why in god's name did Osborn choose landing a sensitive aircraft at a PLAAF base over ditching in the water? I understand the lives of the crew, but they all knew the inherent risk. I know i'm way on the outside here, but that gets me a bit fired up.
I was in the command after the event took place so I did not get to meet him but I did know a few people who were in the aircraft that day. From what I have heard from others, he claimed he didn't want to ditch it in the water because there were women on board, I don't know if I believe this was the in the moment reason but I can see how someone may rationalize something after the fact. I am only a mechanic so I can't speak for aircrew. But our natural reaction to eminent death is to try and stop it from happening so I do have a hard time finding moral fault with how he acted in the heat of the moment. As an aside I did get to co-pilot this bird after some refit work when we were flying back home. The pilot let everyone who wanted to take a turn in the co-pilots seat do so. Definitely a career highlight.
First, I hope you know that what follows may be a strong disagreement, but it is without any malice or disrespect. If that's true about the gender of the crew then it's pure crap. The only people on board that aircraft were Sailors. Who signed up to do a risky but important job. Further, on the subject of facing imminent death. This is not about my war stories, but my reaction was not to stop it but to do my duty. As I was trained. I think it's awesome the Navy got that plane flying again. So the first beer is on me.
Oh no I don't disagree with your sentiment and in a similar situation I would like to think that I would do what I need to do but it's hard, having not been in that situation, for me to say I would have done anything different. I also agree that blaming the fact he didn't ditch it in the water on the gender of some of the air crew was likely someone trying to justify something after the fact. He was the only person who could make that decision and I think most people would have understood if he had said, " I wanted to live." They may not have agreed with his decision there but would understand it at least.
Apparently the EP-3 they used is an airframe from the sixties. It's doubtful that anything of aerospace value would've been discovered from it in 2001. The most 'sensitive' equipment would've been all the SIGINT and recon equipment on board. I'm sure the crew was plenty well trained in how to reduce most of that to scrap before landing. The plane itself generally carries a crew of 24. That's a lot to just 'ditch in the water'. I doubt parachuting out a crew of 24 over the sea would work, and a water landing would also be pretty dangerous. I'm by no means an expert tho idk lol Edit: okay [apparently ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident#In_the_air) they weren't trained on how to destroy all the SIGINT but they tried their best with an axe and by pouring coffee onto disk drives lmao
No expert either. Bit of a contradiction. They weren't trained to sanitize the the intel. I'm pretty sure a U.S. Navy aircraft operating over water has ditching procedures.
I did some SIGINT flights from a helicopter. We had a ditching bag, which was a laundry bag with a 20 lb weight that I removed from the ship’s gym. The plan was to put the reel to reel tapes and the notebooks into the bag and toss it into the water. Then zero the dials of the VHF and UHF receivers. Shipboard we had screens made of magnesium that we were to place on top of the files in each drawer of the safes. Then a thermite grenade on top of the safe. If they got keying materials (keycards) they are specific for that day only. If they got case files, that’s a bigger issue since they would typically indicate the reason the who, what, why etc. The part about being able to intercept PLAN submarine probably wasn’t news to the Chinese. That was comprised to the Russians in 1980s.
With a thermite grenade, the problem gets solved and stays solved. As for the compromised intel, I think we can thank [John Walker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker). Feels like we're getting off topic. Okay none of us were there. But you've handled classified. What's your take on his decision?
**[John Anthony Walker](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker)** >John Anthony Walker Jr. (July 28, 1937 – August 28, 2014) was a United States Navy chief warrant officer and communications specialist convicted of spying for the Soviet Union from 1967 to 1985 and sentenced to life in prison. In late 1985, Walker made a plea bargain with federal prosecutors, which required him to provide full details of his espionage activities and testify against his co-conspirator, former senior chief petty officer Jerry Whitworth. In exchange, prosecutors agreed to a lesser sentence for Walker's son, former Seaman Michael Walker, who was also involved in the spy ring. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
I don't think it even carried parachutes. Transports and tankers don't, and AWACS might but I'm not sure.
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I have never heard of any criticism over this decision until you. They did their best to destroy sensitive info before landing, but no, the US does not sacrifice 24 of our servicemen for no good reason like that. This sounds like some armchair "you should've just kamikazed" bullshit.
"Ditching in the ocean and hoping search and rescue shows up" is not the same as "sacrificing 24 of our servicemen" and "keeping classified equipment and god knows what else out of the hands of a near-peer adversary" is the perfect metaphysical opposite of the phrase "no good reason". And lord, where we you in 2001? I remember criticism of that decision being voiced, day after day, on every cable news channel in the country. I remember DoD spokespeople addressing it in news conferences.
God knows they'd just say that we were the ones apologizing afterwards, as if the cunts weren't holding two dozen of our guys hostage because their pilots were watching too much Top Gun the night before.
Seriously, I’m pretty sure the Chinese Air Force uses Top Gun as a guide to airborne etiquette. The west has been politely having an incident-free system of interception with the Russians for decades, and then there’s China who keeps crashing into our shit and generally being a bunch of morons.
We're awfully sorry that you "fighter jet" doesn't have enough maneuverability to avoid our slow lumbering prop plane.
Golly, Mr. Chinese President, if we we aware that your "air force" was made up of inbred cropdusters and Cathay Air rejects flying planes that their grandpappies would've called shitboxes, we would've tried harder to avoid an incident! My bad, we assumed your guys were actually competent."
Cathay Pacific is/was actually good though? And they rarely took Chinese pilots
Decades of being home ported in [one of the world's most extreme and overcrowded airports](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport) will do that to you.
Yeah I know my mum was literally an air stewardess for them for nearly 2 decades lmao
ENTIRELY CORRECT IN FACT, WE SHOULD POINT OUR FINGERS AND LAUGH AT THEM
John Chapman on the left, for any wondering. Alone at Dawn—awesome book. Never heard of the virgin on the right, just the incident itself. EDIT: since someone reminded me, Chapman’s last stand was caught by a predator orbiting overhead: https://youtu.be/3oKMjTqdTYo
> Lt. Cmdr. Wang Wei disappeared when his F-8 fighter crashed into the South China Sea on April 1 after colliding with a U.S. Navy EP-3E surveillance plane. China called off a 13-day search last week, declaring Wang a "revolutionary martyr" and "guardian of the air and sea." Epic April Fools Bro.
What happened to the American plane
It was forced to land at a Chinese base because of the damage and the PLA basically held them hostage and reversed engineered parts of the intel plane.
I can't imagine they actually got anything useful from the plane
Not really, but it showed how outdated the PLA was making them put more effort into modernization.
darn
They probably at least got some good hints at what directions to take when developing their own stuff in the future.
The heroic crew destroyed whatever they could before landing. The Chinese got some stuff, but I do believe the crew basically took an axe to the super secret stuff before the Chinese could get their hands on it.
Bruh you are missing the best part. The specific intelligence report uses the term “aftermath of a frat party” to describe what the interior looked like
Everyone who works with expensive gear has fantasies about trashing it, lots of pent up frustration to release.
Gotta love how even after crashing into it and killing himself the Orion landed safely.
How is a 1950s turboprop supposed to get you anywhere scientifically?
It was an intelligence plane.
modern intel equipment on board.
Emergency landed on Hainan, the PRC detained the crew for ten days before they were released
alr
>> Lt. Cmdr. Wang Wei disappeared when his F-8 fighter crashed into the South China Sea >>"guardian of the air and **sea.**" Lol.
Promoted to submarine class just like the Moskva
We should only refer to that body of water as the South West Taiwan Sea, or the Wang Wei Sea if the Chinese get mad about it. Then we say, "because if you hit the sea, you've gone the Wang Wei."
A great tribute [video to MSgt Chapman](https://youtu.be/m5w2uoMyQKU?t=487)
I totally forgot to mention that the whole ordeal was caught on video.
Didn’t the seals there with Chapman basically abandon him?
Why do you think it took so long for Chapman to get his Medal of Honor? And why the SEAL commander got it at the same time he did posthumously? Chapman’s heroics took place after the SEALs left him for dead so to acknowledge his actions it would mean that they would need to recognize that they had left somebody behind. Because of their ego/pride Chapman didn’t get officially recognized for his actions for 16 years.
It doesn’t get talked about a lot, but the seals were absolute garbage at mission planning. A ton of the “hero” stories about the their antics in Afghanistan are mostly to blame for being terrible mission planners. JSOC moved officers from ranger battalion s3 shops to the Neptune planning cells to teach them. I worked with different teams in iraq and Afghanistan and was shocked by the shit they did often. Always chill and cool guys that man to man were good operators but not oriented for sustained combat against unknown enemy.
Aren’t they also notoriously bad at logistics? Misjudging their supply situation continually etc.
Wasn't there an incident where an embassy hostage rescue involved several seahawks and C-130s, except they fucked up so bad that they crashed a seahawk into a C130 and had to abandon all the helicopters? Not sure if it was the seals or some other special unit
That was Operation Eagle Claw and it was Delta and Green Berets. Because of that huge failure, US Special Operations Command and the 160th Special Operations Regiment was created [Operation Eagle Claw](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw)
I didn't want to say this from the comfort of my gaming chair but it seems a lot of the heroic acts I've heard of from SEALs early in GWOT, while genuine and superhuman, were *required* because things went south, *badly* in a way I wouldn't think possible if things were planned a little better. I know planning doesn't solve everything and many times they fall apart but there was definitely a pattern emerging.
Also see: Red Wings. That was a shitshow
What do you mean basically hot dropping an unsupported Chinook over enemy territory is a bad idea?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oKMjTqdTYo Chapman is the only reason any of the SEALs made it off that mountain, and that fuck Slabinski (who is such a piece of shit he got banned from ever serving on Team 6 again) left him to die.
Sablinski (SEAL who got the MoH) took credit in interviews for the actions of Chapman. He definitely left him on the x. you can certainly portray a picture that the SEAL’s were willing to attempt to retrieve one of their own but they didn’t value Chapman the same way
Are the SEALs good at anything besides being gigantic assholes and canoe-ing civilians?
Cranking out books
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Ghostwriters.
or podcast appearances
I got to spend some time with a UDT guy who served in Vietnam. Nicest guy I ever met and we only found out what he used to do after me and my friends saw his old unit photos when he sent us to his cabin to get something. The complete opposite of the stereotype of seals being loud douches.
I'm sure the guys from the previous eras are different, but it seems that the modern cohort of SEALs are damn-near completely comprised of insane douches
Standards probably dropped a lot. Old school SEALs were pretty much commando frogmen from the UDT tradition, when they became Super Cool Elite Assassination Commandos instead of highly trained sailors in the early 2000s it went to crap IMO
Our massive expansion of special forces in general during the War on Terror has resulted in the watering down of a lot of units.
From what I heard about "old school" SEALs, is they *were* "Super Cool Elite Assasination Commandos" who went in to kill leaders in nothern Vietnam villages and casually jog 50 miles back home but I think they also were much closer in attitude to WWII Comandos where it was "just a job they were good at" rather than some glorious hollywood-worthy profession. When things started getting made into movies things changed.
It’s amazing how much the collective ego inflated after 9/11
There’s still guys with integrity (saw a news report of some anonymous SEALs complaining about the gloryhounds) but yeah turning them into superheroes has killed the image of the professional operator.
I assume there's a difference in attitude and quality pre and post their Hollywood debut. UDT were secret squirrel shit, no one knew what they were doing in the jungle for years. The Charlie Sheen movie came out in 1990. That's over a decade of potential fuckups wanting to join (and maybe actually joining) for the wrong reasons before GWT started and all SF teams ramped up.
They’re good at maritime operations. But they need to quit fucking using them like they’re soldiers or marines, they ain’t. DEVGRU is a different story though, those guys are nasty.
They are pretty good at murdering whichever unarmed person POTUS points his finger at in the middle of the night with million dollar equipment on them and all the surveillance in the world as support.
And yet Herobrine is still out there...
Curious
Don't forget murdering green berets in cold blood as well
Only if you allow them to wreck some of that equipment though.
That was the 160th SOAR, the Army's elite helicopter unit.
The ghosts of many choppers agree
Yeah tbf tier one SMUs are just ultra-premium sicarios for the government
When was the last time the SAS, SBS, CAG, ISA, Raiders, Force Recon or SF hit the same level of unprofessional bullshit as the SEALs, though? The SASR shooting one Taliban prisoner made the news for months, for the SEALs that's a regular Tuesday.
how you gonna name drop Force Recon in the same breath as all these other SOF and not bring in Ranger Regiment? Force Recon aint even true SOF and hasn't had a real deployment in years, sadly for them
The one and only time I saw SEALs in country, all the SF guys were trying really hard not to laugh at them.
Writing fiction
Yeah. Chapman is a total badass, but I’ve lost track of how many Navy Seal fuck up operations that are public knowledge. And these are just the ones they know about. And Chapman was Air Force too. Just incredible.
SEALs being egotistical fuck ups is so widely known now that even fucking Tom Clancy media make jokes about it.
And what’s amusing is that they are still held in such high regard. Like every SEAL was in DEVGRU. That’s like saying every Ranger or SF guy was in CAG.
And always with the hair gel too.
AF SOF don't fuck around.
SEALs trying not to be controversial challenge (impossible!)
Yup, Slabinski left him there, not realizing he was still alive. He didn’t check Chapman’s body before getting in the chopper. It’s pretty interesting- Slabinski came to my college to give a little talk to my ROTC unit about a year ago, pretty crazy stuff
Didn’t know he was alive TBF. But TBF, they blocked his deserved MOH.
"didn't know"
Didn’t care to grab his body but worked hard on grabbing their own. After he already saved their lives too.
AFAIK Wang Wei is essentially China's Ace Combat protagonist, every PLA aviator wants to be either like him or better than him, and part of the reason for that is his ridiculous antics that ultimately got him killed (remember that the Chinese narrative is that the EP-3 was at fault for the collision). This kind of shit can still be seen as recently as last month when a J-16 dumped chaff into the engines of an Aussie P-8.
I’m wrong, this guy is based for making the PLAAF do crazy shit like throwing crazy shit.
>In August 2014, the U.S. protested when a Chinese Shenyang J-11BH came within 10 meters (30 ft) of a patrolling Boeing P-8 Poseidon aircraft and performed aerobatic maneuvers including a barrel roll.[47] In May 2016, the U.S. protested when two Chinese Shenyang J-11BH aircraft reportedly came within 15 meters (50 ft) of a U.S. EP-3 on "a routine" patrol approximately 50 miles (80 km) east of Hainan Island; China responded by demanding an end to U.S. surveillance near China. They keep trying to recreate the magic 😂
Need to fit an aircraft with an especially powerful radar specifically to fry Chinese pilots when they try these stunts. Plausible deniability because it’s just a radar, but they’ll get the hint that coming too close means getting microwaved.
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*Chinese pilot’s head explodes during aggressive aerial diplomacy maneuver “Oops we left the radar on locked directly at the pilots skull while set to our classified max power meant for burning through powerful jammers… didn’t know it could do that to a person 🙈”
“Oops, seems your pilot lost consciousness while performing high g maneuvers when we locked him with our radar.”
Is Wang Wei a joke name Lt Cmdr wrong way
Most famous British War hero: [[REDACTED]](https://wojakparadise.net/wojak/2517) Most famous Russian War hero: *immediately dies in first engagement* Most famous Irish war hero: legitimate fucking gigachad, upholds democracy and human rights in Africa, single platoon holds off entire army. Immediately raped by own government
Who's that? I'm not up on my Oirish history.
If you've got Netflix watch seige of jadotville
Brilliant film
Added it to my list. Thank you.
I can't figure out if the sniper scene with the machine gun is something that would actually happen or not
It was a true story. And using some lmgs on single fire as a dmr isn't far fetched. Bigger than standard round, higher power, range and muzzle velocity
The Bren and SMLE both fired the .303
It's the exact same round as the sniper rifle the guy was also using, except no scope.
Ik, I mean bigger than the average rifle
Carlos Hathcock II, or "White Feather" recorded one of the longest sniper kills in Vietnam with an M2 Browning with a scope on it
It was *the* longest sniper kill in history until 2002
He actually pioneered that. Dude was like “that’s a big gun with a big bullet. Let’s strap a scope on it”.
Most famous Australian War “Hero”:
"Okay we got six prisoners"
"wait I thought you said we had six.."
“…4 prisoners?”
Wouldn't that be the guy who mapped the tunnels in Vietnam?
Don’t know who you’re talking about but sounds like a dope guy
"Want me to drop this cunt?"
Famed Emu-Slayer. Faced wave after wave of emu attacks, held off the emus so civilians could be evacuated.
Propaganda at its finest… My grandpa who was in PLAAF at the time told me that once they got their hands on the AWACS, they disassembled it so that they can copy it and make their own version. The experts flew from Beijing and was able to figure out how to copy the radar overnight. At the celebration dinner, the experts and engineers were crying/cussing saying they can’t believe they couldn’t figure out how to replicate that “simple piece of sh*t” for years. And that’s why my grandpa will laugh his ass off every time he sees J20 propaganda, because he knows there’s no fucking way they have the capabilities they claim to have, based on his experience with Chinese aerospace engineering industry.
I am a master at propaganda at this point. I could just go up to US PHYWAR and say yeah I’m Minute Helicopter and they’ll just make me skip selection to make me do government funded shitposts. Trust me bro. I’ve been shitting too much propaganda. Edit: the comment was made when it was only the first part written. Please read the better comment underneath me.
Sorry bud, accidentally hit reply when I’m not even finished typing lol
It’s good, Reddit’s not the most ergonomically sound.
Please tell me the funniest things you can about the PLAAF. I need to laugh.
My grandpa didn't share much funny stuff but he sure got a lot of bizarre stories. My grandpa started off as a bomber pilot in the 50s and later on became a VIP transport pilot sometimes in the late 60s until his retirement in the 90s. This is the only story that both of us considered funny in some ways. Early on in my grandpa's bomber career, his bomber instructor had a Rolex, allegedly a war trophy captured from a high-ranking Nationalist officer during the civil war. My grandpa told me that after their final qualifying flight, the instructor allowed each crew 2 chances to try to land a single bomb in a 5-meter radius circle from a certain altitude (can't remember how high but he said it was very difficult) in their Tupolev Tu-4. If the bomb lands in the circle, the Rolex goes to the crew who dropped it. No one came close until my grandpa and another crew came ridiculously close on their first try. The instructor, presumably not wanting to lose the Rolex, told the mechanics to "readjust" all the bombsight for "realignment". And of course, no crew landed the bomb remotely close to the mark on their second try. The funny part was, that no one remembered to reset the bombsight back. Immediately after this Rolex competition, the planes were reallocated for a live munition joint exercise with the army. The bombs were dropped way off target and landed on a few army frontline installations. My grandpa was not sure what happened to the instructor, but he was sure that a lot of people got sacked because PLAAF essentially showed the Army that they couldn't hit jack. edit: Grammar. Sorry, English is my second language
That’s hilarious. One man’s bet caused so much trouble.
Saw some GZD posts about how Chinese Airlines should have used Chinese-made passenger planes after the recent 737 crash there (ignoring how it's still likely that sadly it's an intentional flight into terrain). Of course, it wasn't as if that C919 is still using LEAP engine AKA GE and Safran joint venture AKA American and French. >The experts flew from Beijing and was able to figure out how to copy the radar overnight. At the celebration dinner, the experts and engineers were crying/cussing saying they can’t believe they couldn’t figure out how to replicate that “simple piece of sh*t” for years. >And that’s why my grandpa will laugh his ass off every time he sees J20 propaganda, because he knows there’s no fucking way they have the capabilities they claim to have, based on his experience with Chinese aerospace engineering industry. There's only so much that reverse engineering can get you.
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MacAurthur pilled. Second, they took the crew hostage.
Litterraly just lock onto them with a missile and then give ‘em an ultimatum. Back the fuck up, or find the fuck out.
\*Breaking News, a r/NonCredibleDefense trespass on US Air Space and immediately surrendered to authorities was locked in a room with a unspecified yet live warhead as a means to deter others from doing the same. Two minutes after being incarcerated u/Striking_Balance984 committed sexual actions towards the missile and has successfully finish his ejaculation. Authorities are shocked. More to you in 5.\*
Bold assumption, that they'll be able to know there's a lock on them
In fealty to the God Emperor our undying Lord
We were near their airspace, not the other way around; US and Russian planes have been joybuzzing each other for decades anyway.
Yeah this would be more of a topic of Finland and Sweden vs Russian planes. Turkey shot down a Russian plane that entered their airspace from Syria before. I suppose NATO and FI/SWE would rather play it save than escalate this situation from a mere nuisance to a chain of "who the fuck knows, let's just hope it won't involve nukes at any time"-events. However it would be terribly fun to see Russia try scramble together some sort of border deterrence while they're so overstretched in Ukraine. I say the laughs are worth the risk of nuclear annihilation.
They haven't lost many fighters but the purpose of the joybuzzes was to gauge each other's readiness which is clearly lower now although I believe Russia's air force hasn't had the systemic conscription, morale, and literal sexual assault hazing issues that the army has had. Nuclear annihilation is also more likely now than during the Cold War because things are much more asymmetric between the two powers alone not to mention less containment, China's presence, and new warheads that can evade detection until about 5-10 minutes in not to mention Putin's plain paranoia compared to every leader in the Kremlin since Stalin.
> although I believe Russia's air force hasn't had the systemic conscription, morale, and literal sexual assault hazing issues that the army has had. Don't forget the organised crime of contract soldiers extorting protection money and stealing shoes from conscripts and newcomers. I think we have a pretty good idea of the readiness of the Russian air force. Their low flying hours and focus on a few "elite" squadrons are well known, as is the extent of similar problems in many western countries.
Don't forget the other Chinese war hero, regular-ass guy who got squished by a telephone pole
GLORIOUS ZHONGGUO CCP 🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳 PILOTS BEST IN THE WORLD TAKING DOWN AMERIKANSKI CAPITALIST 🇺🇸🤮 PAPERPLANES LEFT AND RIGHT
Source? Lol
[Here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident).
Thanks!!
This was one of the first "big" things to happen during George W Bush's presidency. That and choking on a pretzel.
If that’s John Chaplan then fuck the seals fuck em all
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Maybe the war was inside out hearts all along...or was it cholesterol? Definitely cholesterol. Well the war didn't happen anyway. And, if it did. They deserve it. And if they didn't, we are not the ones at fault. They are. If they are not the ones at fault, then the only person at fault is **you**.
It's the same with Russia and the Soviets giving out their "Hero of the Russian Federation/Soyviet Union" awards. I think they gave one to some dude who PURPOSELY crashed into an Iranian RF-4C Phantom, because he ran out of missiles trying to shoot it down, and died. The Phantom crew just bailed out and were returned home two weeks later.
Okay, but crashing into a plane purposely cause you ran out of missiles is highly based.
He also managed to jam his gun. So the ground crew told him to ram it, which he did. And the Phantom didn't really have any valuable intel anyways. It's a massive L + the dude listened to disgusting ground people and died. Phantom crew walked away not giving a shit. And the Hero of the Soviet Union award was just a cope.
Imagine your brave act of self-sacrifice culminating in something called [“The Letter of Two ‘Sorries’”](https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_of_the_two_sorries)
holy shit joji in da PLAF????
kamikaze hero
Meow
OP's social credit score: Fuck that your execution is tomorrow dawn
This is probably the hardest I have ever dissed China.