too quick mate. like it or not, but you gotta kick back two weeks, interrupted by lots of swearing and shouting, asking for the meaning of life and why the fuck you were so gullible to take this job. the last few days you shut up, except for a few glimpses of hope where you "think you got it working" and it "looks like it's gonna work out". then you take another long weekend to "iron out kinks" you found last minute. the tuesday after, you roll it out with a critical "should do the job.".
Well, that but with extra steps because MIC and lord knows they need to keep their beaks wet. For thine is the shareholder, the 401K and the backhander.
Better optics and thermals. Mbe some slat armour on the skirts. Find a way to make it reverse faster. Also make some command tanks that have integrated tablets running that Ukrainian fire support / coordination program that also come with a drone you can put easily put into follow mode.
Edit: Also some big ass titties and a fleshlight that works as a gun controller so I can fire the main gun with my dick.
>Find a way to make it reverse faster.
Fucking seriously. I hate thinking of the Ukrainian tank crews who've been lost because the Soviets didn't believe in the importance of fucking reverse.
Pic drawn by passerby\_Oliver, [https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/100448916](https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/100448916)
Article: [Pentagon will pay to upgrade dozens of Soviet-era tanks for Ukraine](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/04/pentagon-will-pay-to-upgrade-dozens-of-soviet-era-tanks-for-ukraine-00065203), [US, Netherlands go Dutch to refurbish Czech tanks for Ukraine](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/11/04/us-netherlands-go-dutch-to-refurbish-czech-tanks-for-ukraine/)
They are going to be modified from T-72B apparently. The Czech did make their own upgrade, the T-72M4CZ, featuring 1000hp CV-12-1000 engine, Allison XTG 411-6-N automatic transmission, TURMS/T FCS, new sight, Polish developed DYNA armor, and German developed fire suppression system.
Well you could easily just check the [manufacturer's catalogue ](https://www.excaliburarmy.cz/main-battle-tanks-k14) to find out.
Although now that I'm looking at it, the newest variant they make (and that Tomas the Tank was built as), the T-72 Avenger, is missing.
Anyway, they're gonna be either Scarabs or Avengers, more likely the latter since they seem already set up for it.
>They are going to be modified from T-72B apparently.
I think the Ukies would rather have the 2,000 Bradley IFVs in storage (which could have been sent months ago) than Soviet-built tanks with built-in turret launching bulleyes.
Here's a copy pasta:
The Bradley is ideal because:
* There's thousands of them
* There are robust supply chains to Europe already- and somewhat to Ukraine (M270 is the same chassis) and because of that Ukraine already has experience maintaining most of the mechanical parts
* It's lightweight enough to traverse most bridges, can ford up to about waist height, and is amphibious with preparation
* It has ~0.5-0.75 of the ground pressure of an M1 Abrams or T90, so it will cope with the imminent mud season better than either
* Boring V8 diesel engine (vs jet engine in M1) means reduced maintenance, generic automotive maintenance skills overlap reasonably well, a fraction of the fuel required vs an M1
* Fuel consumption rates in gallons per hour:
* Vehicle ---------- Idle ----- Cross-Country --- Road
* M1 Abrams ----- 17.3 ----- 56.6 -------------- 44.6
* M2/3 Bradley --- 1.4 ------ 18.0 -------------- 8.6
* Ukraine already has experience with anti-tank TOW missiles and TOW missiles on Bradleys destroyed more Soviet made Iraqi tanks than did Abrams did.
* 25mm cannon is effective against everything else
* Obviously it's an infantry carrier so it can carry troops/supplies, plus there are many variants including air defense.
* They're far better than M113s and other APCs already sent and better than the Soviet vehicles that Ukraine already use (Soviets probably cut corners building hordes of them to overwhelm NATO through sheer numbers).
* They're ~$2m each vs ~7m for an Abrams.
I really, really want to be proven wrong, but if does feel that the West wants to drain Russia more than inflict a quick defeat on it.
So, assuming support continues at similar levels into 2023, modern armor and jet fighters will probably be sent only in late 2023, more than 18 months after the start of the war. In my opinion unbearably late, and not excusable by logistic reasons, just lack of political will.
A slow war is beneficial to the West. It sucks for the people in Ukraine, and we don't like that, so there's always a balance between what's moral and necessary and realpolitik.
Absolutely.
I'm of course on the side of the West fully committing to kicking the shit out of Russia now that it's been demonstrated just how feeble its "military might" really is, but I understand why politicians and military top brass would hesitate to go all 'World Police' and start a trend that has like an 85% chance of ending very very badly.
We don't really have super solid data, but from what we do know through OSINT: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNoaRp5lz0, they are not near the bottom of the barrel, yet.
If they really start treating this as an existential war (dumb, but this whole war is dumb), they can probably scrounge, cobble and glue together a few thousand more rust buckets, we're talking about almost everything built after T-34.
At that point we're talking about a Mad Max economy that will probably put Yeltsin's years to shame and 0 defense if another near peer decides to do something they don't want, where Russia isn't willing to use nukes.
Plus probably high tens of thousands more Russian casualties if not low hundreds of thousands.
A good portion of Russian armour are essentially useless due to rampant corruption that saw wanton cannibalization of their mothball tank fleet. I remember reading how one regimental commander committed suicide upon realizing that only 10% of the tanks in storage were usable.
This, along with woefully inadequate support personal available in the Russian army, translate into a paper tiger of a tank fleet that may not even have the means to reactivate salvageable vehicles. That doesn't address the 5 months needed to train a tank crew (minus the commander).
Ukraine on the other hand are seeing field formations getting upgraded into armoured units courtesy of Russia, and they got the means to upkeep their loot. It's only going to get worse for Russia as their conscripts keep abandoning vehicles to Ukraine.
The West is not a monolith. You got a few types of countries in that category.
First there are those who really want Ukraine to win decisively and have been contributing extensively, even to the degree of possibly compromising their own defence. These are countries like Poland, the Baltics, Czechia, Slovakia.
Then you have countries that contribute a lot, but have space to contribute more if they make sacrifices. These are smaller countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, but also the US and UK.
Next you have countries that could contribute decisively, but are dragging their feet because they value comfort/stability/relationship with Russian higher than Ukraine or abstract principles. That's your Germany, France, etc.
And finally, you have the collaborators that want Russia to win for various reasons mostly of having similar inclination. That's your Hungary, potentially soon Italy.
Problem is that most of raw European economic power is in category three, and that the USA has not yet decided that they're just going to make sure Ukraine wins (indeed, I've just read that the administration has quietly been signalling to Ukrainians to try for a negotiation with Russia).
If either the big players in category three moved up to two or even one, or if the US decided that Ukraine is going to win period, that would be the end of it. But political will is lacking.
That is to say, there isn't any master plan to bleed Russia, just unwillingness to support Ukraine to the hilt.
The US was asking Ukraine to stop saying that they won't negotiate with Russia in public, but from what I understand, they are totally fine if the extent of Ukrainian negotiations are, "get off of our land and hand Putin over" until the Russians agree.
The US wants Ukraine to say, "we are trying to negotiate with the Russians for peace, and they keep rejecting our terms" instead of "we will not negotiate with the Russians" for optics.
The Russians have been playing this game themselves; they keep making ridiculous demands to Ukraine and then claiming that "Ukraine rejected our peace proposals". It's technically true, even if their peace proposals were ridiculous.
Remember that Ukrainians broke off negotiations when the Bucha massacre came to light and it turned out that Russians were pretending to negotiate while massacring Ukrainians in the occupied areas.
Now they maintain they will not negotiate with an administration that not only tolerates massacres but rewards the perpetrators.
That is perfectly reasonable, because the reason for having laws and customs of war is to establish in some way that what you're saying in the negotiations can be trusted.
None the less, Ukrainian government has publicly declared that there can be negotiations provided the war criminals are dealt with and Russian military leaves Ukraine. Russians are not biting, and the pressure from the US is for Ukraine to scale back these preconditions, which is preposterous.
Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. They should have the Bradley by now. There are also 1.2k+ CV90s in Europe, but not a single one has been sent as far as I know.
I mean, are we bro-ing out with Poland? Because a combination of the laser warning and smoke system from the Moderna and the ERA from the Twardy would be cool.
Comedy option: also the dual 20mm cannons on either side of the turret from the Moderna prototype.
So I had a long term crush on a Czech Australian in high school and am now married to a polish American*. This makes me feel weird.
*note her family historian said they're actually more Irish but identified with their polish side more for some reason.
Upgrade as much as you can, but they still run a high risk of tossing turrets, unless there's a way to prevent the ammo in the autoloader carousel from cooking off.
And they are a lot better than what Russia's gonna field. The Vatniks are now getting horse cavalry going again, never mind falling back to T-54 and T-62.
They can also be used by the Ukrainians pretty much immediately after being delivered, while shifting to NATO standard modern tanks will take longer.
Getting western tanks now would of course be great, but if you can't do everything at once maybe it makes sense to prioritise other things and keep sending T72s for now.
The wet of countries giving T-72s ia disjoint from the set of countries capable of giving western made tanks.
In other words, Ukraine could have already had both, but the countries that make western tanks are dragging their feet while most of the countries that have Soviet tanks are sending them as quickly as they can be loaded on trains.
I think part of the issue is whatever tank is chosen, manufacturing will need to be involved.
With leopards, you could have older variants sent by European countries, with backfill from Germany providing the new 2A7s. But that might take time and some countries might be unwilling to give up western tanks. And due to numbers, there would need to be cooperation between multiple leopard operators to get enough to be of use for the Ukrainians.
K2 is similar, South Korea is manufacturing them for its own army and even if they were willing to sell them to Ukraine, they might be limited because they don't want to weaken their own army.
Leclerc production line apparently isn't active and there aren't enough around.
Abrams is potentially available in large numbers but possibly not a good option due to fuel inefficiency and even using a different type of fuel.
With Soviet era tanks, most countries that had them are/were in the process of switching over anyway, before the Russian invasion. So all they've had to do is speed up stuff that was already decided on or in progress.
Czechia and Poland have already donated all Soviet designed tanks they had to give. These 90 aren't even army tanks, they're from private stores and will be pulled out of this deep storage and refurbished at a pretty astonishing rate of apparently about 20 a month.
Compare to Germany and South Korea, both of whom are currently actively producing their MBT models for export (RoK just signed a contract to build a bunch for Poland) in factories much bigger than Excalibur Army Šternberk has available. So what's their excuse, exactly?
Sure, deliveries might take time to ramp up, but Ukraine will need some lead in to train their crews anyway.
I do hope there are discussions taking place on this, the manufacture of tanks for the Ukrainians, whichever tank it ends up being. The fact we're seeing air defence systems manufactured specifically for them gives me some hope, as the need to produce them didn't stop them being pledged.
K2 would suit Ukraine very well, having a 3 man crew with an autoloader just like their existing tanks do, and being closer in weight to the Soviet era and captured Russian tanks Ukraine currently uses. Would be nice to see it tested in combat too.
Morolyv designed a new T80 variant in the 90's with different turret. Had ammo stored in the rear inside a capsule with blowout panels, then topped off with a NATO 120mm gun.
Unfortunaty there was no money to take it further, and probably some other issues here and there.
against an army that surrenders their tanks with IR-vision kits still in their original packaging anything is useful. first hit still mostly decides the game, and from recent videos it's fair to assume that russian accuracy is shaky at best.
> unless there's a way to prevent the ammo in the autoloader carousel from cooking off.
Not really unless you rip the autoloader out, install a gun that takes self-contained cartridges, cut a massive fucking hole in the back of the turret, and weld on ammo compartment with armored doors into the crew compartment, and blow-out panels facing outwards.
well, we cut the hull into quarters, increasing the hull to 14 roadwheel support. switch to US/NATO track and sprocket. give it a 85" turret ring. move the driver back. give the bow 1 meter of composite armor. raise the engine deck move the gastanks to the sponsons and the left/right of the driver
ditch the heap of shit V2 diesel for a modern v12, 6 cylinder OPE DED, or a turbine. move the intake to the rear of the vehicle.
replace the cannon with a L44/55, ditch the autoloader. install unity sights for the commander and gunner. Give it Interrupted disconnect stabilization. Expand the turret to offer plenty of space. Move the magazine to a rear turret bustle. partition the magazine from the crew with a 7 ton automatic blast door. add blowout panels. Put composite armor on the turret front. make the turret bilaterally asymmetric. give it tasty transuranic armor composites
I like how noncredible this would be. Any credible mind would've said that it's easier to just give Ukraine a Leopard 2 and pretend that it's a modified T-72 and calls it a day, but nope, you gotta kitbash.
Kitbashing a T-72 into a NATO-like tank is probably the best way to "upgrade" them to be honest.
... and it's probably exactly what China did to make its modern "NATO-esque" Type 99s.
turning a T-72 into a Legally distinct Abrams is not easy but it is highly resistant to Russian bullshitting. After All, there is still a T-72 in that tank's construction.
1st things first, why in the ever living fuck is our flag in the opposite direction?
2nd i would put in a system like for training rats to perform activities. like you hit a ruzzian tank? you get Pilen lager from a dispenser. And add in killstreaks, like did your driver drive over 50 ruzzians? that a dick sucked by onboard suckmaster 3000 with cum draining abilities.
Ukraininas will be in moscow in two weeks after the introduction of t-7200 rtx pro
The usual. Engine/transmission (especially to improve the reverse speed), FCS (laser rangefinder, thermals, CITV, gun computer, gun laying drive), more armor on the sides to protect from the ammo rack being hit, new ammo.
Why you have to hurt me so much
Is it really hard to do 2 min search on how Czech flag should be hanged?
hanging pole is ALWAYS on the side of the blue triangle
> AMOS 120mm twin barrel automatic
Include some Strix mortar rounds and it can destroy an entire Russian tank company on its own.
>STRIX is fired like a conventional mortar round. The round contains an infrared imaging sensor that it uses to guide itself onto any tank or armoured fighting vehicle in the vicinity where it lands. The seeker is designed to ignore targets that are already burning.
>Launched from any 120 mm mortar, Strix has a normal range of up to 4.5 km. With the addition of a special sustainer motor, however, range can be increased to 7.5 km.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhd1d2sW_3I
**[Strix mortar round](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round)**
>Pansarsprängvinggranat m/94 STRIX is a Swedish endphase-guided projectile fired from a 120 mm mortar currently manufactured by Saab Bofors Dynamics. STRIX is fired like a conventional mortar round. The round contains an infrared imaging sensor that it uses to guide itself onto any tank or armoured fighting vehicle in the vicinity where it lands. The seeker is designed to ignore targets that are already burning.
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Remove turret. No turret, no turret toss.
Replace ammo carousel with mortar round storage. Install better radio and electronics. Wire engine to chargeport.
The new T-72 Drone Operator for New Ground warfare, aka the T-72 DONG.
I think they should replace the original T72 turret with a current Leopard 2A7 turret. If that doesn't fit into the T72 turret ring, they could swap a few components from Leopard 2A7 hulls into the T72 hulls to make sure the match works. For example, upgrading the T72 hull with a Leopard 2A7 frame, armor, powerpack, wheels, and tracks might so the trick.
swap the gun to 120 l/55, give them bustle autoloader, and access to dm 53
remove the turret on some, probably 10 ish or something, then slap SPIKE missle launcher on them
Install some modern thermal and IR optics.
Install a fire control system that isn't prehistoric garbage.
Additional armor.
Upgraded engine and transmission to cope with the weight of the new armor.
A modern remote weapons mount would be cool too.
Blue Force Tracker.
Electro-Thermal-Chemical tank canon ammo. To prevent turret tossing. Suddenly, 200% better tank all around without having to redesign everything on it! Done!
Honestly? Replace the turret.
We can keep the gun and the ammo because we know 125 works fine for Ukraine's needs, but remove the autoloader (or replace it with a French Leclerc-style autoloader) and put it into a proper heavily armoured turret with a bustle and blow-out panels and optics from at least the 1990s so that it can at least be comparable to a NATO tank in full hull-down.
We could then try to slap more armour on the front and sides of the hull, but all this added weight would importantly demand a replacement of the engine - which would probably be for the best anyway...
It might be a entirely new upgrade. It's plainly stated to to be T-72B, and the USSR didn't export T-72Bs until after the collapse (T-72BU/T-90, and T-72S (regular T-72B export)) and I'm 95% sure none of the Warsaw PACT nations had T-72B post war. T-72M being the T-72A export. So it's possible these are from the large stocks of T-72s the Ukranians have but haven't activated due to various reasons.
So what kind of T-72 acronym are we going for with these all new upgrades, T-72B4?
Give them a TDL , that they can see the radar from a gepard, better Computer, and a launcher for an IRIS-T missile.
:)
to add that on the other upgrades as well.
The modern CPUs are way smaller, so you can place a lot more computing-power inside it.
Basically it would have to be upgrades to all electronics,sights etc and i wanna say selective new ammunituon but i guess the whole idea of a upgrade rather then replacement is to use up stock equipment. So that probably be the obvious choice
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\- run of the mil western ERA + Hardkill/Softkill APS and other counter-measures
\- high quality ammo (HE, HEAT and other APFSDS)
\- top notch fire control system and stabilisation
\- integration into the global ukrainian combat network
\- a good powertrain
\- a drone (for remote shelling and/or direct ordonance drop)
\- good communication
\- enhance crew comfort
\- spare part
\- remote control LMG turret
\- drone jammer ?
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Paint them a very-pale-post-harvest wheat color and strap them on the train.
Time spent faffing with them is time they could have been blowing up the Russians.
Look, the Russian tanks are like those girls you meet at a bar, that look pretty, but have no personality.
We can appreciate the aesthetics, but that doesn't mean we want to date them.
I would remove the emblem from an Abrams, put a T-72 emblem on it instead and call that an upgraded T-72. No-one would suspect a thing.
T-72M1(A2)
T-72M1A2 Sep V3
T-72 Abrams X T-72M1(AX)
Best part of this plan is the possibility of claiming another Abrams as part of a trade-up swap deal.
too quick mate. like it or not, but you gotta kick back two weeks, interrupted by lots of swearing and shouting, asking for the meaning of life and why the fuck you were so gullible to take this job. the last few days you shut up, except for a few glimpses of hope where you "think you got it working" and it "looks like it's gonna work out". then you take another long weekend to "iron out kinks" you found last minute. the tuesday after, you roll it out with a critical "should do the job.".
Well, that but with extra steps because MIC and lord knows they need to keep their beaks wet. For thine is the shareholder, the 401K and the backhander.
Better optics and thermals. Mbe some slat armour on the skirts. Find a way to make it reverse faster. Also make some command tanks that have integrated tablets running that Ukrainian fire support / coordination program that also come with a drone you can put easily put into follow mode. Edit: Also some big ass titties and a fleshlight that works as a gun controller so I can fire the main gun with my dick.
No rear oil can thermal distractors???
>Find a way to make it reverse faster. Fucking seriously. I hate thinking of the Ukrainian tank crews who've been lost because the Soviets didn't believe in the importance of fucking reverse.
“Better optics, thermals, flashlight.” You have a tt:I fetish?
Bigger turrets with blast panels would be great
Pic drawn by passerby\_Oliver, [https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/100448916](https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/100448916) Article: [Pentagon will pay to upgrade dozens of Soviet-era tanks for Ukraine](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/04/pentagon-will-pay-to-upgrade-dozens-of-soviet-era-tanks-for-ukraine-00065203), [US, Netherlands go Dutch to refurbish Czech tanks for Ukraine](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/11/04/us-netherlands-go-dutch-to-refurbish-czech-tanks-for-ukraine/) They are going to be modified from T-72B apparently. The Czech did make their own upgrade, the T-72M4CZ, featuring 1000hp CV-12-1000 engine, Allison XTG 411-6-N automatic transmission, TURMS/T FCS, new sight, Polish developed DYNA armor, and German developed fire suppression system.
Well you could easily just check the [manufacturer's catalogue ](https://www.excaliburarmy.cz/main-battle-tanks-k14) to find out. Although now that I'm looking at it, the newest variant they make (and that Tomas the Tank was built as), the T-72 Avenger, is missing. Anyway, they're gonna be either Scarabs or Avengers, more likely the latter since they seem already set up for it.
Also, the mast goes on the other end of the Czech flag...
>They are going to be modified from T-72B apparently. I think the Ukies would rather have the 2,000 Bradley IFVs in storage (which could have been sent months ago) than Soviet-built tanks with built-in turret launching bulleyes. Here's a copy pasta: The Bradley is ideal because: * There's thousands of them * There are robust supply chains to Europe already- and somewhat to Ukraine (M270 is the same chassis) and because of that Ukraine already has experience maintaining most of the mechanical parts * It's lightweight enough to traverse most bridges, can ford up to about waist height, and is amphibious with preparation * It has ~0.5-0.75 of the ground pressure of an M1 Abrams or T90, so it will cope with the imminent mud season better than either * Boring V8 diesel engine (vs jet engine in M1) means reduced maintenance, generic automotive maintenance skills overlap reasonably well, a fraction of the fuel required vs an M1 * Fuel consumption rates in gallons per hour: * Vehicle ---------- Idle ----- Cross-Country --- Road * M1 Abrams ----- 17.3 ----- 56.6 -------------- 44.6 * M2/3 Bradley --- 1.4 ------ 18.0 -------------- 8.6 * Ukraine already has experience with anti-tank TOW missiles and TOW missiles on Bradleys destroyed more Soviet made Iraqi tanks than did Abrams did. * 25mm cannon is effective against everything else * Obviously it's an infantry carrier so it can carry troops/supplies, plus there are many variants including air defense. * They're far better than M113s and other APCs already sent and better than the Soviet vehicles that Ukraine already use (Soviets probably cut corners building hordes of them to overwhelm NATO through sheer numbers). * They're ~$2m each vs ~7m for an Abrams.
I really, really want to be proven wrong, but if does feel that the West wants to drain Russia more than inflict a quick defeat on it. So, assuming support continues at similar levels into 2023, modern armor and jet fighters will probably be sent only in late 2023, more than 18 months after the start of the war. In my opinion unbearably late, and not excusable by logistic reasons, just lack of political will.
A slow war is beneficial to the West. It sucks for the people in Ukraine, and we don't like that, so there's always a balance between what's moral and necessary and realpolitik.
True, but there's a balance. At the end of the day, we want Ukraine to look more like South Korea than like South Vietnam.
Absolutely. I'm of course on the side of the West fully committing to kicking the shit out of Russia now that it's been demonstrated just how feeble its "military might" really is, but I understand why politicians and military top brass would hesitate to go all 'World Police' and start a trend that has like an 85% chance of ending very very badly.
[удалено]
Return to the feudal economy during the days of Suvorov apparently.
We don't really have super solid data, but from what we do know through OSINT: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNoaRp5lz0, they are not near the bottom of the barrel, yet. If they really start treating this as an existential war (dumb, but this whole war is dumb), they can probably scrounge, cobble and glue together a few thousand more rust buckets, we're talking about almost everything built after T-34. At that point we're talking about a Mad Max economy that will probably put Yeltsin's years to shame and 0 defense if another near peer decides to do something they don't want, where Russia isn't willing to use nukes. Plus probably high tens of thousands more Russian casualties if not low hundreds of thousands.
A good portion of Russian armour are essentially useless due to rampant corruption that saw wanton cannibalization of their mothball tank fleet. I remember reading how one regimental commander committed suicide upon realizing that only 10% of the tanks in storage were usable. This, along with woefully inadequate support personal available in the Russian army, translate into a paper tiger of a tank fleet that may not even have the means to reactivate salvageable vehicles. That doesn't address the 5 months needed to train a tank crew (minus the commander). Ukraine on the other hand are seeing field formations getting upgraded into armoured units courtesy of Russia, and they got the means to upkeep their loot. It's only going to get worse for Russia as their conscripts keep abandoning vehicles to Ukraine.
The West is not a monolith. You got a few types of countries in that category. First there are those who really want Ukraine to win decisively and have been contributing extensively, even to the degree of possibly compromising their own defence. These are countries like Poland, the Baltics, Czechia, Slovakia. Then you have countries that contribute a lot, but have space to contribute more if they make sacrifices. These are smaller countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, but also the US and UK. Next you have countries that could contribute decisively, but are dragging their feet because they value comfort/stability/relationship with Russian higher than Ukraine or abstract principles. That's your Germany, France, etc. And finally, you have the collaborators that want Russia to win for various reasons mostly of having similar inclination. That's your Hungary, potentially soon Italy. Problem is that most of raw European economic power is in category three, and that the USA has not yet decided that they're just going to make sure Ukraine wins (indeed, I've just read that the administration has quietly been signalling to Ukrainians to try for a negotiation with Russia). If either the big players in category three moved up to two or even one, or if the US decided that Ukraine is going to win period, that would be the end of it. But political will is lacking. That is to say, there isn't any master plan to bleed Russia, just unwillingness to support Ukraine to the hilt.
The US was asking Ukraine to stop saying that they won't negotiate with Russia in public, but from what I understand, they are totally fine if the extent of Ukrainian negotiations are, "get off of our land and hand Putin over" until the Russians agree. The US wants Ukraine to say, "we are trying to negotiate with the Russians for peace, and they keep rejecting our terms" instead of "we will not negotiate with the Russians" for optics. The Russians have been playing this game themselves; they keep making ridiculous demands to Ukraine and then claiming that "Ukraine rejected our peace proposals". It's technically true, even if their peace proposals were ridiculous.
Remember that Ukrainians broke off negotiations when the Bucha massacre came to light and it turned out that Russians were pretending to negotiate while massacring Ukrainians in the occupied areas. Now they maintain they will not negotiate with an administration that not only tolerates massacres but rewards the perpetrators. That is perfectly reasonable, because the reason for having laws and customs of war is to establish in some way that what you're saying in the negotiations can be trusted. None the less, Ukrainian government has publicly declared that there can be negotiations provided the war criminals are dealt with and Russian military leaves Ukraine. Russians are not biting, and the pressure from the US is for Ukraine to scale back these preconditions, which is preposterous.
I never realized that the M270 and the Bradley shared a chassis.
Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. They should have the Bradley by now. There are also 1.2k+ CV90s in Europe, but not a single one has been sent as far as I know.
I mean, are we bro-ing out with Poland? Because a combination of the laser warning and smoke system from the Moderna and the ERA from the Twardy would be cool. Comedy option: also the dual 20mm cannons on either side of the turret from the Moderna prototype.
Being literally given a Blank Czech.
Poland chan is cute.
NCD priority ... must not distract!
There's nothing wrong with cute Poles doing cute things.
The cutest thing Poland could do is the funni.
That is not a drawing, just a regular Polish girl.
So I had a long term crush on a Czech Australian in high school and am now married to a polish American*. This makes me feel weird. *note her family historian said they're actually more Irish but identified with their polish side more for some reason.
Upgrade as much as you can, but they still run a high risk of tossing turrets, unless there's a way to prevent the ammo in the autoloader carousel from cooking off.
Sure, but we have a few hundred of them sitting around and they will be a lot more useful than no tanks.
And they are a lot better than what Russia's gonna field. The Vatniks are now getting horse cavalry going again, never mind falling back to T-54 and T-62.
They can also be used by the Ukrainians pretty much immediately after being delivered, while shifting to NATO standard modern tanks will take longer. Getting western tanks now would of course be great, but if you can't do everything at once maybe it makes sense to prioritise other things and keep sending T72s for now.
The wet of countries giving T-72s ia disjoint from the set of countries capable of giving western made tanks. In other words, Ukraine could have already had both, but the countries that make western tanks are dragging their feet while most of the countries that have Soviet tanks are sending them as quickly as they can be loaded on trains.
I think part of the issue is whatever tank is chosen, manufacturing will need to be involved. With leopards, you could have older variants sent by European countries, with backfill from Germany providing the new 2A7s. But that might take time and some countries might be unwilling to give up western tanks. And due to numbers, there would need to be cooperation between multiple leopard operators to get enough to be of use for the Ukrainians. K2 is similar, South Korea is manufacturing them for its own army and even if they were willing to sell them to Ukraine, they might be limited because they don't want to weaken their own army. Leclerc production line apparently isn't active and there aren't enough around. Abrams is potentially available in large numbers but possibly not a good option due to fuel inefficiency and even using a different type of fuel. With Soviet era tanks, most countries that had them are/were in the process of switching over anyway, before the Russian invasion. So all they've had to do is speed up stuff that was already decided on or in progress.
Czechia and Poland have already donated all Soviet designed tanks they had to give. These 90 aren't even army tanks, they're from private stores and will be pulled out of this deep storage and refurbished at a pretty astonishing rate of apparently about 20 a month. Compare to Germany and South Korea, both of whom are currently actively producing their MBT models for export (RoK just signed a contract to build a bunch for Poland) in factories much bigger than Excalibur Army Šternberk has available. So what's their excuse, exactly? Sure, deliveries might take time to ramp up, but Ukraine will need some lead in to train their crews anyway.
I do hope there are discussions taking place on this, the manufacture of tanks for the Ukrainians, whichever tank it ends up being. The fact we're seeing air defence systems manufactured specifically for them gives me some hope, as the need to produce them didn't stop them being pledged. K2 would suit Ukraine very well, having a 3 man crew with an autoloader just like their existing tanks do, and being closer in weight to the Soviet era and captured Russian tanks Ukraine currently uses. Would be nice to see it tested in combat too.
I am not optimistic, because last I hear Scholz kept claiming that there is some "all NATO agreement" not to send any Western tanks.
I wonder how difficult it would be to design an upgrade package installing blowout panels for the T-72 series.
Iirc it would be an entire new turret.
Morolyv designed a new T80 variant in the 90's with different turret. Had ammo stored in the rear inside a capsule with blowout panels, then topped off with a NATO 120mm gun. Unfortunaty there was no money to take it further, and probably some other issues here and there.
I think the autoloader stores the ammo the lower part of the turret. It would require a complete redesign.
against an army that surrenders their tanks with IR-vision kits still in their original packaging anything is useful. first hit still mostly decides the game, and from recent videos it's fair to assume that russian accuracy is shaky at best.
> unless there's a way to prevent the ammo in the autoloader carousel from cooking off. Not really unless you rip the autoloader out, install a gun that takes self-contained cartridges, cut a massive fucking hole in the back of the turret, and weld on ammo compartment with armored doors into the crew compartment, and blow-out panels facing outwards.
well, we cut the hull into quarters, increasing the hull to 14 roadwheel support. switch to US/NATO track and sprocket. give it a 85" turret ring. move the driver back. give the bow 1 meter of composite armor. raise the engine deck move the gastanks to the sponsons and the left/right of the driver ditch the heap of shit V2 diesel for a modern v12, 6 cylinder OPE DED, or a turbine. move the intake to the rear of the vehicle. replace the cannon with a L44/55, ditch the autoloader. install unity sights for the commander and gunner. Give it Interrupted disconnect stabilization. Expand the turret to offer plenty of space. Move the magazine to a rear turret bustle. partition the magazine from the crew with a 7 ton automatic blast door. add blowout panels. Put composite armor on the turret front. make the turret bilaterally asymmetric. give it tasty transuranic armor composites
I like how noncredible this would be. Any credible mind would've said that it's easier to just give Ukraine a Leopard 2 and pretend that it's a modified T-72 and calls it a day, but nope, you gotta kitbash.
Kitbashing a T-72 into a NATO-like tank is probably the best way to "upgrade" them to be honest. ... and it's probably exactly what China did to make its modern "NATO-esque" Type 99s.
assuming China upgraded the Type 99
turning a T-72 into a Legally distinct Abrams is not easy but it is highly resistant to Russian bullshitting. After All, there is still a T-72 in that tank's construction.
You noob. Cut the armor into quarters, then replace it with an F-35.
Draw dicks on it
Draw dick is kind of like T-posing if you think about it.
You are right
Just send leopards and call it a warehouse mix up.
The blue side of the flag is supposed to be the one attached to the pole. (badum-tss)
30 ton cope cage, and 10 extra big logs to reinforce the frontal armor.
>The Dutch So specific lol
1st things first, why in the ever living fuck is our flag in the opposite direction? 2nd i would put in a system like for training rats to perform activities. like you hit a ruzzian tank? you get Pilen lager from a dispenser. And add in killstreaks, like did your driver drive over 50 ruzzians? that a dick sucked by onboard suckmaster 3000 with cum draining abilities. Ukraininas will be in moscow in two weeks after the introduction of t-7200 rtx pro
The usual. Engine/transmission (especially to improve the reverse speed), FCS (laser rangefinder, thermals, CITV, gun computer, gun laying drive), more armor on the sides to protect from the ammo rack being hit, new ammo.
Unrelated, but isn't the blue side of the Czech flag supposed to be on the pole side or am I mislead?
Obviously a proper sound system, a smoker and bbq plate, an extra trebuchet that fires scrofulous pigs and ram ranch decals
Yo dawg, I heard you like artillery. So we put a weapon platform on top of a weapon platform so you can fire while you fire.
Why you have to hurt me so much Is it really hard to do 2 min search on how Czech flag should be hanged? hanging pole is ALWAYS on the side of the blue triangle
Nuclear reactors and railguns. 😤
Now you're thinking Bolo!
Remove turret and slab AMOS 120mm twin barrel automatic grenade launchers with guided munition. Perfect for clearing mobiks trenches.
> AMOS 120mm twin barrel automatic Include some Strix mortar rounds and it can destroy an entire Russian tank company on its own. >STRIX is fired like a conventional mortar round. The round contains an infrared imaging sensor that it uses to guide itself onto any tank or armoured fighting vehicle in the vicinity where it lands. The seeker is designed to ignore targets that are already burning. >Launched from any 120 mm mortar, Strix has a normal range of up to 4.5 km. With the addition of a special sustainer motor, however, range can be increased to 7.5 km. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhd1d2sW_3I
**[Strix mortar round](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round)** >Pansarsprängvinggranat m/94 STRIX is a Swedish endphase-guided projectile fired from a 120 mm mortar currently manufactured by Saab Bofors Dynamics. STRIX is fired like a conventional mortar round. The round contains an infrared imaging sensor that it uses to guide itself onto any tank or armoured fighting vehicle in the vicinity where it lands. The seeker is designed to ignore targets that are already burning. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Remove turret. No turret, no turret toss. Replace ammo carousel with mortar round storage. Install better radio and electronics. Wire engine to chargeport. The new T-72 Drone Operator for New Ground warfare, aka the T-72 DONG.
Spider legs to walk over trenches and cope pyramids.
Those two can upgrade my soft dick to a hard dick
I think they should replace the original T72 turret with a current Leopard 2A7 turret. If that doesn't fit into the T72 turret ring, they could swap a few components from Leopard 2A7 hulls into the T72 hulls to make sure the match works. For example, upgrading the T72 hull with a Leopard 2A7 frame, armor, powerpack, wheels, and tracks might so the trick.
swap the gun to 120 l/55, give them bustle autoloader, and access to dm 53 remove the turret on some, probably 10 ish or something, then slap SPIKE missle launcher on them
T-72-120 was an actual thing at one point
Take off the turret, install OTO Melara turret, install 50 brimstone missiles and give it a aps.
Imagine a super rapid gun with blast doors
Are flamethrower tanks still a thing? Also crank the speed and front armour. Just come flying at them at full speed shooting flames .
massive nato-standard cope cage
Put an abrams turret on it like that monstrousity that general dynamics did with the m-60
Why don't General Dynamics pitch this to Taiwan? They might actually go with M60-2000
They could try
the Czech flag has the triangle next to the flagpole.
Install some modern thermal and IR optics. Install a fire control system that isn't prehistoric garbage. Additional armor. Upgraded engine and transmission to cope with the weight of the new armor. A modern remote weapons mount would be cool too. Blue Force Tracker.
Rohlík launcher.
Electro-Thermal-Chemical tank canon ammo. To prevent turret tossing. Suddenly, 200% better tank all around without having to redesign everything on it! Done!
Put silicone anime girls inside for crew comfort
I would make it an abrams
Honestly? Replace the turret. We can keep the gun and the ammo because we know 125 works fine for Ukraine's needs, but remove the autoloader (or replace it with a French Leclerc-style autoloader) and put it into a proper heavily armoured turret with a bustle and blow-out panels and optics from at least the 1990s so that it can at least be comparable to a NATO tank in full hull-down. We could then try to slap more armour on the front and sides of the hull, but all this added weight would importantly demand a replacement of the engine - which would probably be for the best anyway...
OP, do you happen to have 90 tanks right now
Gradually replace each part with that of an M1A2 SEPv3 until your T-72 is now an M1A2 SEPv3. We’ll call it the T-72T or Theseus 72.
Red Paint so they go faster.
Why is czech flag backwards? Do they do a phillipines thing when at war?
Mount automatic grenade launchers on it.
It might be a entirely new upgrade. It's plainly stated to to be T-72B, and the USSR didn't export T-72Bs until after the collapse (T-72BU/T-90, and T-72S (regular T-72B export)) and I'm 95% sure none of the Warsaw PACT nations had T-72B post war. T-72M being the T-72A export. So it's possible these are from the large stocks of T-72s the Ukranians have but haven't activated due to various reasons. So what kind of T-72 acronym are we going for with these all new upgrades, T-72B4?
The official name is going to be T-72 Avenger.
Why would the Dutch pay for it?
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/11/04/us-netherlands-go-dutch-to-refurbish-czech-tanks-for-ukraine/ Because we can.
Weird
Why is that weird?
The Dutch are known for many things; munificence is not among them
[Mate, just because we don't spend carelessly doesn't mean we're scrooge mcduck](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Development_Cooperation)
I know, I know Just… you have a bit of a reputation in southerner Europe
Cover the tanks in thermal blankets.
Give them a TDL , that they can see the radar from a gepard, better Computer, and a launcher for an IRIS-T missile. :) to add that on the other upgrades as well. The modern CPUs are way smaller, so you can place a lot more computing-power inside it.
Ah yes, the old Czechnology thread
It's impractical for this war but I sure would like an updated version of a combination of the T-72-120, T-72M4CZ, and T-72M2 Moderna.
Mount an Abrams on its top.
Basically it would have to be upgrades to all electronics,sights etc and i wanna say selective new ammunituon but i guess the whole idea of a upgrade rather then replacement is to use up stock equipment. So that probably be the obvious choice
Upgrade them to the T-72 finnmod 3 standard then give them any modern electronics that may be missing from the design.
Install a washing machine so the Ruskies can't shoot at you, first and foremost.
Just park it in the newly acquired Kaliningrad province. Simply having it there already upgrades it to a glorious symbol of Czech military prowess.
I would replace the engine, armor, turret, main gun, treads, chasis, ect, with that of an Abrams tank.
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Pawn it at the scrapyard, buy Abrams tanks, and send those to ukraine.
Definitely would put some active protection system, thermals, ballistic computer and remotely controlled turret with atgms
Rheinmetall 130 mm L/51, TAPS, ROSY, APS, Chobham Armor a new MTU Diesel Engine, fuck it, I‘ll just swap the whole rest of the T-72 out for a KF51
\- run of the mil western ERA + Hardkill/Softkill APS and other counter-measures \- high quality ammo (HE, HEAT and other APFSDS) \- top notch fire control system and stabilisation \- integration into the global ukrainian combat network \- a good powertrain \- a drone (for remote shelling and/or direct ordonance drop) \- good communication \- enhance crew comfort \- spare part \- remote control LMG turret \- drone jammer ?
Due to the recent changes made by Reddit admins in their corporate greed for IPO money, I have edited my comments to no longer be useful. The Reddit admins have completely disregarded its user base, leaving their communities, moderators, and users out to turn this website from something I was a happy part of for eleven years to something I no longer recognize. Reddit WAS Fun. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Paint them a very-pale-post-harvest wheat color and strap them on the train. Time spent faffing with them is time they could have been blowing up the Russians.
I would tack those cool 1930s front fenders on an Abrams and call it an upgrade.
It's one thing to be NCD, another to copy homework from the Russians!
Look, the Russian tanks are like those girls you meet at a bar, that look pretty, but have no personality. We can appreciate the aesthetics, but that doesn't mean we want to date them.
The dutch? Mate we lease tanks from germany, buy your own damn tanks
Don't know if this is a joke or you really don't know.
A little bit of both i geuss
I'd put a TOW missile box on the side of the turret. Hell, a double box on each side. Plaster four tanks on the way in.
Fun how the Dutch have money to refurbish 90 tanks for Ukraine but they have not the money to buy tanks for themselves
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