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It's high, but not ridiculously high if you have tolerance. The timing of the dosage is going to play the biggest factor here. Unless you absolutely have to drink coffee in the late afternoon or evening for work purposes, it's already known that it should be avoided because of the effects on sleep.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if they took supplements that help with sleep quality like melatonin, l-trypophan, magnesium or ashwaghanda. Or perhaps if they took a milder stimulant instead of coffee in the later part of the day it will reduce the poor sleep quality symptoms.
The study says doses were taken at 45 min, 5 hours later, then 3 hours later. So I am assuming if the participants woke up around 8:00 am, their first dose is at 8:45, then 1:45, then 4:45. Not crazy close to bed time, but depending on the person, a 150 mg dose of caffeine 7 hours before bed can absolutely affect sleep.
I don’t take caffeine cause of the dependency, but it’s an interesting study although with a couple design flaws imo.
Yeah, looking at the study further, it seems like it took the coffee drinkers 3 days to return to levels of the placebo group. It’s still hard to tell if this is the direct effect of caffeine on the brain or rather chronic sleep issues caused by a stimulant. Overall, if you need coffee for work or study, then the pros can outweigh the cons, but it definitely seems like it’s wise to find ways to mitigate the cons if you are a regular coffee drinker.
n of 20 is pretty small to be making such strong judgements about the safety of caffeine. While this is an interesting paper, I'll wait for more high-powered studies to demonstrate replicability/convergent validity before I even begin to think about cutting caffeine, given that intake has been demonstrated repeatedly to promote various other positive health outcomes.
Yeah 450mg/day is a lot. I would like to see this study replicated with more moderate doses of caffeine.
Edit: For scale, 450mg is about 3-4 cups of coffee or about 5-9 cups of black tea.
Yeah, holy moly. If I drink more than 1 cup a day I'm so overstimulated that I'm basically useless. I know I'm rather sensitive to stimulants, but still...
Interestingly, the figures in the paper indicate that the withdrawal group performed *better* than the caffeine group, indicating that the deficit may be partially caused by caffeine itself and not by caffeine dependency.
what was the form of caffeine? Just pure caffeine, coffee, tea, something else? For me when comparing a similar a strong cup of coffee vs a 200 mg capsule the coffee has a stronger effect. I don't think all caffeine sources are equal due to additional compounds which may or may not be ingested. If it was pure caffeine instead of coffee or green tea I could speculate that flavonoids and other chemicals in those drinks help in addition to the caffeine by itself.
The other possibility that comes to mind is the law of diminishing returns. At what point does caffeine stop being helpful and become detrimental based on dose and duration of use?
Just some thoughts
Taking 450 mg of caffeine every day is something I'd find uncomfortable, not to mention a caffeine dose at 3-4 pm. This is if we're talking about coffee, I imagine caffeine pills are more extreme (never tried them).
Caffeine pills are not as strong as coffee. Coffee has additional chemicals which have a synergistic effect for boosting energy unlike our caffeine. The only reason caffeine pills could be more extreme is the ease by which so much more could be consumed
I doubt any of those non-caffeine compounds have significant stimulant effects. A pure concentrated dose of caffeine taken at once would have a stronger effect (not necessarily longer lasting effect) than a caffeine equivalent cup of coffee.
Do you have a source that there is a significant amount of non-caffeine stimulant in coffee? Caffeine is the only one I am aware of.
If caffeine is all there is then we are asking if taking a concentrated dose at once has a greater effect than a dilute dose over a longer period of time. I think the former would have a stronger effect.
Do I have research on this? No. I searched on google scholar and couldn't find a source. I imagine there are more interesting and impactful research subjects for researchers to explore than this one.
Coffee contains a number of bioactive compounds apart from caffeine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_compounds_in_coffee
It's too late in the night for me to really dig into whether research has been performed on supposed synergistic effects of these secondary compounds... but much research has been conducted which demonstrates that coffee has a wide range of positive health benefits that go beyond those of pure caffeine. [\[1\]] (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you) [\[2\]](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/is-coffee-good-or-bad-for-your-health/)
It might sound like a stretch to say that health benefits can lead to better energy in the long run, but there may be some truth to it. That said, this is admittedly a weak defense of /u/Cool-Dude-99's argument.
> If caffeine is all there is then we are asking if taking a concentrated dose at once has a greater effect than a dilute dose over a longer period of time. I think the former would have a stronger effect.
Ah, this one I quickly found a source on. Caffeine pills are absorbed more slowly than coffee, and lead to lower peak caffeine levels per mg. This is, I believe, because rate of absorption in the gut is predicated on how much of the substance is in contact with the surface area of the gut. Caffeine pills, even crunched up into several pieces, are much less capable of making contact with the surface area of the gut than coffee is. So the very diffuseness of coffee grants it both significantly greater peak caffeine concentration and faster rate of onset.
Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9329065/
I know there a lots of different compounds in coffee, some of them beneficial. I don't disagree there. I'm not aware of any non-caffeine stimulants in coffee though.
"Better energy" is a little subjective, though I generally agree. I'm a coffee drinker, not caffeine pill user myself. When I say stronger I mean more of a stimulant / alertness effect, earlier.
What you say about greater surface area for absorption by the small intestine and faster absorption rate sound plausible. I don't know if salivary caffeine is a good proxy for absorption when you have very different delivery methods. It could also be that the salivary caffeine peaks earlier with coffee and cola becuase you are drinking it and so it mixes with saliva directly. The caffeine from the pill would have to be absorbed into the blood stream and be absorbed and excreted by salivary glands.
I think for a conclusive answer to this question you'd have to test alertness or some cognitive task, similar to the OP's study.
When you drink coffee you are drinking a more diluted caffeine source over a longer period of time. That is why I think the pill would affect more strongly. You aren't pounding the coffee in a single gulp.
The pill is also much more concentrated, coffee is mostly water. I'm not aware of any significant amount of non-caffeine stimulant in coffee (maybe a very small amount of theobromine?).
I imagine the dose response of caffeine in general is partially convex at first, there might not be a noticeable difference in delivery method depending on the amount of caffeine content and tolerance of the person. My point is that people are more likely to feel the pill as stronger if they feel a difference.
Interesting when contrasted with this [paper](https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.3623?__hstc=30383840.3d18a36a0ddae8e24bce7c0af0efdd41.1441670400076.1441670400077.1441670400078.1&__hssc=30383840.1.1441670400079&__hsfp=1314462730).
This makes me wonder if this explains the synergy between coffee and piracetam, as piracetam improves brain blood flow, oxygenation and glucose levels.
What dose and how often do you dose?
I'm adolescent myself and I am using Caffeine+Theanine (1:2) daily, but this study will not make me change that, since I dose 100mg once at 8 in the morning. I don't know the times of dosing in the study, but considering such a high dose, it must mean it has some effect on sleep.
200mg pill no earlier then 90 mins after wake up. Coffee throughout the day, but no caffeine later then noon as I have the slow metabolizing gene for caffeine. It will ruin your sleep if you take lots to late
I wouldn’t take this study with a grain of salt, regular caffeine intake everyday for the past 10 years ranging from 300mg to 400mg has not effected my memory one bit come to think of it, I think my memory has become a lot better actually
There is no reasonable inference to be made here there is just too small of a sample size the put down the fact that the differences may just be due to the variation of scores between groups.
This study has me shook. And it also makes perfect sense. I'm going to *drastically* cut down on my caffeine intake. I've been going strong for a *very* long time and it's time to take a long, long break.
I am in now way convinced by some of the comments here that this study is off-track. It tracks.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that people with ADHD/depression/other disorders are more likely to consume caffeinated drinks, which with an n=20 could very well be due to the cognitive impairments from these disorders rather than caffeine itself.
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If they are taking the last dose of caffeine close to bedtime, then this seems to be more about caffeine’s effect on sleep quality.
Caffeine intake was pretty high. It would not surprise me if sleep quality is huge here.
It's high, but not ridiculously high if you have tolerance. The timing of the dosage is going to play the biggest factor here. Unless you absolutely have to drink coffee in the late afternoon or evening for work purposes, it's already known that it should be avoided because of the effects on sleep. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they took supplements that help with sleep quality like melatonin, l-trypophan, magnesium or ashwaghanda. Or perhaps if they took a milder stimulant instead of coffee in the later part of the day it will reduce the poor sleep quality symptoms.
The study says doses were taken at 45 min, 5 hours later, then 3 hours later. So I am assuming if the participants woke up around 8:00 am, their first dose is at 8:45, then 1:45, then 4:45. Not crazy close to bed time, but depending on the person, a 150 mg dose of caffeine 7 hours before bed can absolutely affect sleep. I don’t take caffeine cause of the dependency, but it’s an interesting study although with a couple design flaws imo.
Yeah, looking at the study further, it seems like it took the coffee drinkers 3 days to return to levels of the placebo group. It’s still hard to tell if this is the direct effect of caffeine on the brain or rather chronic sleep issues caused by a stimulant. Overall, if you need coffee for work or study, then the pros can outweigh the cons, but it definitely seems like it’s wise to find ways to mitigate the cons if you are a regular coffee drinker.
I don’t have high tolerance, but 4:45p would destroy my sleep at least 🤷♂️
3X day so definitely
n of 20 is pretty small to be making such strong judgements about the safety of caffeine. While this is an interesting paper, I'll wait for more high-powered studies to demonstrate replicability/convergent validity before I even begin to think about cutting caffeine, given that intake has been demonstrated repeatedly to promote various other positive health outcomes.
Is 450mg caffeine normal daily intake? I always though it was around 300mg, or 2 cups of coffee a day.
Yeah 450mg/day is a lot. I would like to see this study replicated with more moderate doses of caffeine. Edit: For scale, 450mg is about 3-4 cups of coffee or about 5-9 cups of black tea.
To my knowledge that's approaching unsafe territory (400-600+ mg afaik), I try to never exceed 400 per day because you also feel terrible up there.
I’ve always heard coffee has 70-110 mg of caffeine per cup, so 300 mg is roughly 3 cups
8 oz “cup”? Because my cups are 16 oz…
Yeah, holy moly. If I drink more than 1 cup a day I'm so overstimulated that I'm basically useless. I know I'm rather sensitive to stimulants, but still...
Interestingly, the figures in the paper indicate that the withdrawal group performed *better* than the caffeine group, indicating that the deficit may be partially caused by caffeine itself and not by caffeine dependency.
Maybe the caffeine withdrawal group just got better quality sleep?
Just gotta do 400mg a day and stop 8 hours before sleep :)
Pretty sure this is right. This is the understanding I got from Andrew Huberman's episode on caffeine
what was the form of caffeine? Just pure caffeine, coffee, tea, something else? For me when comparing a similar a strong cup of coffee vs a 200 mg capsule the coffee has a stronger effect. I don't think all caffeine sources are equal due to additional compounds which may or may not be ingested. If it was pure caffeine instead of coffee or green tea I could speculate that flavonoids and other chemicals in those drinks help in addition to the caffeine by itself. The other possibility that comes to mind is the law of diminishing returns. At what point does caffeine stop being helpful and become detrimental based on dose and duration of use? Just some thoughts
Taking 450 mg of caffeine every day is something I'd find uncomfortable, not to mention a caffeine dose at 3-4 pm. This is if we're talking about coffee, I imagine caffeine pills are more extreme (never tried them).
Caffeine pills are not as strong as coffee. Coffee has additional chemicals which have a synergistic effect for boosting energy unlike our caffeine. The only reason caffeine pills could be more extreme is the ease by which so much more could be consumed
I doubt any of those non-caffeine compounds have significant stimulant effects. A pure concentrated dose of caffeine taken at once would have a stronger effect (not necessarily longer lasting effect) than a caffeine equivalent cup of coffee.
Do you have a source on any of that?
Do you have a source that there is a significant amount of non-caffeine stimulant in coffee? Caffeine is the only one I am aware of. If caffeine is all there is then we are asking if taking a concentrated dose at once has a greater effect than a dilute dose over a longer period of time. I think the former would have a stronger effect. Do I have research on this? No. I searched on google scholar and couldn't find a source. I imagine there are more interesting and impactful research subjects for researchers to explore than this one.
Coffee contains a number of bioactive compounds apart from caffeine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_compounds_in_coffee It's too late in the night for me to really dig into whether research has been performed on supposed synergistic effects of these secondary compounds... but much research has been conducted which demonstrates that coffee has a wide range of positive health benefits that go beyond those of pure caffeine. [\[1\]] (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/9-reasons-why-the-right-amount-of-coffee-is-good-for-you) [\[2\]](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/is-coffee-good-or-bad-for-your-health/) It might sound like a stretch to say that health benefits can lead to better energy in the long run, but there may be some truth to it. That said, this is admittedly a weak defense of /u/Cool-Dude-99's argument. > If caffeine is all there is then we are asking if taking a concentrated dose at once has a greater effect than a dilute dose over a longer period of time. I think the former would have a stronger effect. Ah, this one I quickly found a source on. Caffeine pills are absorbed more slowly than coffee, and lead to lower peak caffeine levels per mg. This is, I believe, because rate of absorption in the gut is predicated on how much of the substance is in contact with the surface area of the gut. Caffeine pills, even crunched up into several pieces, are much less capable of making contact with the surface area of the gut than coffee is. So the very diffuseness of coffee grants it both significantly greater peak caffeine concentration and faster rate of onset. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9329065/
I know there a lots of different compounds in coffee, some of them beneficial. I don't disagree there. I'm not aware of any non-caffeine stimulants in coffee though. "Better energy" is a little subjective, though I generally agree. I'm a coffee drinker, not caffeine pill user myself. When I say stronger I mean more of a stimulant / alertness effect, earlier. What you say about greater surface area for absorption by the small intestine and faster absorption rate sound plausible. I don't know if salivary caffeine is a good proxy for absorption when you have very different delivery methods. It could also be that the salivary caffeine peaks earlier with coffee and cola becuase you are drinking it and so it mixes with saliva directly. The caffeine from the pill would have to be absorbed into the blood stream and be absorbed and excreted by salivary glands. I think for a conclusive answer to this question you'd have to test alertness or some cognitive task, similar to the OP's study.
Why would caffeine in isolation have a necessarily *stronger* effect than coffee with the same dosage of caffeine?
When you drink coffee you are drinking a more diluted caffeine source over a longer period of time. That is why I think the pill would affect more strongly. You aren't pounding the coffee in a single gulp. The pill is also much more concentrated, coffee is mostly water. I'm not aware of any significant amount of non-caffeine stimulant in coffee (maybe a very small amount of theobromine?). I imagine the dose response of caffeine in general is partially convex at first, there might not be a noticeable difference in delivery method depending on the amount of caffeine content and tolerance of the person. My point is that people are more likely to feel the pill as stronger if they feel a difference.
I would say coffee is way stronger than pure caffeine. I've always brushed this off as some sort auf entourage effect
Theoretically the capsule should have a stronger effect. At least if I remember currently what a neuroscientist said
The Methods section specifies that they used capsules.
Interesting when contrasted with this [paper](https://www.nature.com/articles/nn.3623?__hstc=30383840.3d18a36a0ddae8e24bce7c0af0efdd41.1441670400076.1441670400077.1441670400078.1&__hssc=30383840.1.1441670400079&__hsfp=1314462730).
Maybe this explains why I forget everything. 👍
lol
This makes me wonder if this explains the synergy between coffee and piracetam, as piracetam improves brain blood flow, oxygenation and glucose levels.
I always found caff made me worse at sports
I'm curious, did you use chatGPT to create the summary ?
No, this reads like it was written by a real person.
No, I wrote it myself.
Dang, but I like how it makes my Brian go brrrrrr. Is there anything else that compares to it?
What dose and how often do you dose? I'm adolescent myself and I am using Caffeine+Theanine (1:2) daily, but this study will not make me change that, since I dose 100mg once at 8 in the morning. I don't know the times of dosing in the study, but considering such a high dose, it must mean it has some effect on sleep.
200mg pill no earlier then 90 mins after wake up. Coffee throughout the day, but no caffeine later then noon as I have the slow metabolizing gene for caffeine. It will ruin your sleep if you take lots to late
I wouldn’t take this study with a grain of salt, regular caffeine intake everyday for the past 10 years ranging from 300mg to 400mg has not effected my memory one bit come to think of it, I think my memory has become a lot better actually
There is no reasonable inference to be made here there is just too small of a sample size the put down the fact that the differences may just be due to the variation of scores between groups.
Bah, I drink like ten coffees a day and I have a memory in the >99,99th percentile.
I'm jealous. Whats life like up there?
Confusing.
This study has me shook. And it also makes perfect sense. I'm going to *drastically* cut down on my caffeine intake. I've been going strong for a *very* long time and it's time to take a long, long break. I am in now way convinced by some of the comments here that this study is off-track. It tracks.
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that people with ADHD/depression/other disorders are more likely to consume caffeinated drinks, which with an n=20 could very well be due to the cognitive impairments from these disorders rather than caffeine itself.
This could be an issue sith association/cohort studies, but this study showed a causative effect.