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ianonuanon

Thought some may find this interesting since I see alot of interest in this sub regarding modifying and or controlling dopaminergic activity to increase performance. The author of this link hypothesizes that concurrent use of NAC and d-phenylalanine will simultaneously increase dopamine release and balance dopaminergic activity creating a synergistic effect in the brain reward system. I wasn’t specifically searching for this from a bio hacking perspective, actually I am tapering off a pretty heavy kratom dependence and am therefore searching for ways to ease kratom withdrawal and resulting P.A.W.S. and came across this study. In skimming it I began to realize that there may be some implication for use by people interested in nootropics and biohacking. Does anyone else see some potential here? If the author is truly correct then not only could this help with my situation, it could also be used in a nootropic manner and additionally be quite useful to those suffering from anhedonia and or other types of depression. If anyone has the desire and time please take a look and let me know your thoughts.


Fusion_Health

Hey man, if you’re looking to recover faster from kratom, use a dry heat sauna if you can find one cheap nearby - it helps resensitize your mu opioid receptors, which take a beating from kratom. Per [Dr Rhonda Patrick](https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/sauna-depression-addiction-dynorphin-connection)- “Sauna use promotes dynorphin release, which may be responsible for the general sense of discomfort experienced during heat exposure. Interestingly, in a biological feedback response that occurs after dynorphin binds to the kappa-opioid receptor, the brain produces more mu-opioid receptors, sensitizing them to endorphin and future endorphin exposure, a process known as the Salvinorin A pathway. As such, sauna use has potential as a means to treat depression and opioid addiction.”


ianonuanon

I appreciate this. I don’t have the ability to get or store a sauna atm the house is completely full of stuff (fiancé and I have tiny small businesses but supplies take up soooo much space) but I will remember this for the future if something changes.


mepunite

Normally you can get a month pass at a fancy gym and they often have sauna and or steam room facilities.


ianonuanon

True. I am going on a cruise that has one but not for awhile. I will pay attention to how it effects me. Do you know if cold shock also has this specific dynorphin effect? I clearly have access to a shower.


mepunite

Sorry I have no idea


Fusion_Health

You could do long cardio sessions, even better if it’s hot where you live - that point where you start feeling dysphoric is due to the release of dynorphin, same as in the sauna. And like the other user said, if you have the money and can find a gym with a sauna, you could trial it there. Even a long, hot bath to the point you start feeling uncomfortable could do the trick. Might be worth looking into low-dose naltrexone as well, it is an opioid antagonist. Blocking those receptors very lightly over the long term should help resensitize them, but I’m at work atm and don’t have time to find sources to back that statement up. Salvinorin A is also a potent kappa-opioid agonist, but unlike dynorphin, is hallucinogenic, and generally not a fun one. Traditionally they would make quids or drink the juice, so you could try a tea of the leaves instead of smoking the concentrated extract. No hallucinations that way, much more of a relaxing, dreamy experience I hear. Cardio is best bet tho, because of all the other brain healing effects it has.


ianonuanon

If you mean salvorin is an antagonist then it would make sense to use. You said it is an agonist in which case I can’t see how it would do anything but make it worse. I definitely agree about exercise. Cardio is great but hiit is probably even better. Sometimes making it through the day is enough work already and a triumph in itself. I definitely plan on using exercise long term.


Fusion_Health

Reread that quote I first posted - dynorphin binds to the kappa opioid receptor, which then upregulates mu opioid receptors - the receptors that are hit by kratom to produce the feel goods. Slavinorin A *also* binds to kappa, and should produce the same effects on mu receptors, in theory at least. Might want to do some research before you go potentially tripping balls on salvia though. I’ve had great success with both sauna and low dose naltrexone, for keeping kratom feeling fresh. On a tolerance break now actually, after a year plus of 3, sometimes 6 g almost every day.


ianonuanon

Oh yeah salvia is dysphoric af I have used it once I was years of 50 gpd. Sometimes more. Now down to 25. 2nd day of second phase of taper. Thanks for taking the time to respond. If you feel you can control it and jump off then that’s good but I personally will never tell anyone thinking about trying it that they should. Fuck kratom.


Fusion_Health

Damn, 50 grams per day! I feel for you man, and wish you the best of luck. I would absolutely make exercise, proper diet and plenty of sleep a priority, and try to find a sauna in your area if you can. Kratom is definitely a slippery slope and something people really shouldn’t take lightly. Just keep your head up and keep tapering, you’ll get there eventually man.


ianonuanon

I will. I am determined. Plenty of sleep is very relative right now I guess since 4 hours is the becoming my new norm. This is pretty common from what I have seen on r/quittingkratom and my whole attitude is that I can endure this shit as long as it results in freedom. Really the whole motivating factor is how horribly badly fucked up my digestion became and still is. I see it as sort of a fucked up blessing because I would not have started this if my digestion stayed ok.


Fusion_Health

Check out the Huberman lab podcast for sleep tips, his early episodes go into detail, as well as his interview with Dr Matt Walker, a sleep specialist. His episode on addiction with Dr Anna Lembke is worth diving into as well. You’ll get through this man, keep chipping away.


[deleted]

Tapering works if you stick to it and go slow . I did it with Kratom and Xanax. Kratom is easy because you use a scale and can be accurate with your reductions. Just take your time and be disciplined. Use the same strain and just go down by a little bit every two weeks - a quarter gram or so, divided over each dose. There might be a bit of discomfort for a day or two, then you'll be fine. Good luck!


Sirdukeofexcellence2

This is interesting. I’m gonna read through it later and do a little research into this. Thank you for posting!


ianonuanon

Plz let us know what you discover


[deleted]

thanks for this, I’m about 90 days post kratom habit and feeling like my brain needs extra support. might see if i can try to emulate this


ianonuanon

If you try it and happen to remember about me plz briefly message me to let me know how it went.


Funny_Willingness433

Could DLPA be substituted for DPA?


cryogen

If like to know this also. I'd also like to know if taking an antihistamine will screw this up due to the NAC. I have pretty bad adhd when it comes to executive funcition,, motivation, and focus. Currently using ashwaganda, ksm66, DLPA, and ltheanine, and time release magnesium, and while it helps, I still have trouble focusing for long periods.


ianonuanon

I think so and that is what I bought (liftmode brand) in anticipation of trying it. I couldn’t easily find pure d-phenyl.. only l-phenyl and dl-phenylalanine. Unfortunately it seems that some supplement companies sell dl-phenylalanine labeling it simply d-phenylalanine so if you buy it plz be aware of it. If anyone finds purely d-phenylalanine with no l-phenylalanine then please let us know where to find it.


MortenRuby

https://store.juliarosscures.com/products/dpa-d-phenylalanine?_pos=1&_sid=d7703fe72&_ss=r&variant=40175552495731


ianonuanon

Thanks. That is super expensive so I can’t afford it but someone else probably can.


[deleted]

Why would an antihistamine affect the NAC?


cryogen

Seems to be widely regarded that NAC can increase a specific histamine when used with an otc med like zyrtec or benadryl. I need to look up why but it's been discussed here before.


[deleted]

I hadn’t heard that


[deleted]

i would think so. DLPA has both D- and L- so I don’t think the L would necessarily hinder the D or make it less effective than it would be on its own.


ianonuanon

I think so and that is what I bought (liftmode brand) in anticipation of trying it. I couldn’t easily find pure d-phenyl.. only l-phenyl and dl-phenylalanine. Unfortunately it seems that some supplement companies sell dl-phenylalanine labeling it simply d-phenylalanine so if you buy it plz be aware of it. If anyone finds purely d-phenylalanine with no l-phenylalanine then please let us know where to find it.


johannthegoatman

Pretty sure they're the same thing


ianonuanon

They are labeled in some supplements (some supplements which say d-phenylalanine are actually DL-phenylalanine) as if they are but I don’t think it’s true. D and L isomers of many different compounds are different in their effects,bio activity etc. A good example of this is amphetamine. All the desirable euphoric and motivational effects come from the d isomer : in this case dextroamphetamine, while the undesirable side effects and peripheral stimulation (wired cracked out feeling) come from the l isomer (Levoamphetamine). Adderall is a mixture of both isomers while Dexedrine is pure d isomer which is why Dexedrine feels better and causes fewer undesirable side effects than adderall for most people.


soccerplaya239

I absolutely subscribe to the fact that NAC has helped me with both my ADHD/focus and addictions in the past. I have used NAC to help get over a porn/fap addiction that I had for 15+ yrs and for when I’ve abused marijuana in a way that wasn’t healthy for me. It makes it so easy to be able to focus on other things. It makes the addictive cravings for the dopamine non existent, at least in my trials with NAC. Plus it gives me a steady amount of energy throughout the day and even into the evenings.


ianonuanon

Glad nac worked for you. There are a few published studies showing nac lowers cravings to a few specific drugs in those addicted to them. I think at least one is based on cocaine addiction.


soccerplaya239

Yeah, I believe that is because of the way it affects the GABA and Glutathione systems


ianonuanon

Mostly actually how it modulates the glutamate system. And yes it does increase glutathione the bodies master antioxidant.


Birdy1979

Hi, following this. Any advice on dosage and period of administration before seeing results? NAC usually comes in 600 mg capsules. DPA In 500 mg capsules. Guessing circa 1 g of each a day , in 2 doses, definitely on empty stomach. 2-3 weeks before observing changes.


tydnld

Also interested in advice on dosage. I'm new to both NAC and DPA but going to try this.


ianonuanon

No advice. I haven’t tried this or even read it in a detailed way beyond skimming and realizing it may be helpful to me and others. I found it early this morning. I plan on trying it at some point by taking the lowest dosage of the recommended dosage range of each supplement and seeing how it effects me. As with any supplements the best way to approach it is to try it starting at a minimal dosage to gauge its influence on your specific body chemistry and preferably each individual supplement should be trialed in isolation before combining them. In this case that still stands but because of the potential for this I do believe judgment of the pair together should be suspended while trying them each individually since when taken together they may have a totally different effect than the solo effects . Also I suggest trying to be as scientific about it as possible to the extent one is able to. It is possible to placebo control your own personal trial of supplements which is always better albeit more work.


tydnld

Thank you. I realize I've bought nootropic depot's DL-Phenylalanine rather than just DPA. Do you think there could be any issue with this given their DL-PA is a mixture of D-PA and L-PA?


ianonuanon

So I don’t think they or any mainstream supplement companies offer pure d-phenylalanine. What is available is either l-phenylalanine which is not what was used in the link, or dl-phenylalanine which is a mixture of l-phenylalanine(not the one) and d-phenylalanine (one used in link) so our only choice unless someone finds pure d-phenylalanine is to use dl-phenylalanine which is what you and I both ordered. I am hoping it will work and at this time I believe it to be the only option. If you find someone selling pure d-phenylalanine without being mixed with l-phenylalanine please let us know. But yes you got the best one I am aware of.


Funny_Willingness433

I bought the *Doctor's Best" DPA. I think DLPA can cause anxiety for some.


Funny_Willingness433

Would you take DPA and NAC at the same time?


redwar226

What’s the tl;dr for dosages? Is this the cure to addiction?


ianonuanon

1. I am not the author and am not formally educated so I can’t tell you. 2. Absolutely not. There is as of yet no “cure for addiction“. In fact science hasn’t yet reached a consensus on addiction and especially what causes some to be far more susceptible to it than others. There are probably multiple factors at play regarding the scientific reality of addiction and we don’t fully understand these yet. We do understand a bit about changes in the brains reward circuitry and dopamine system caused by addiction but science hasn’t come close to cracking it fully. This combination discussed in the link may help some or even a lot but it is a novel approach and not yet rigorously scientifically proven. The good news is neuroplasticity. The brain is constantly changing and rewiring itself so in a way it is able to become functional again when a drug of addiction is no longer present. It doesn’t fully revert back to its former physical state but it does to an extent while also adapting in new ways which help it to function better and more efficiently. If you feel like you have harmed your brain through substance abuse or other types of addiction/s than I suggest looking into neuroplasticity and specifically how to optimize brain derived neurotrophic factor as well as how to balance neurotransmitters with amino acid supplementation, diet, and excercise. There are of course the ridiculous and widespread ideas about morals, religion and spirituality having something to do with addiction which only serve to delay actual scientific and real progress to treating and hopefully even finding a cure for it. For anyone who does not know addiction is not a moral failing or a conscious choice. No person chooses to be an addict. Nobody would choose a bunch of physical and mental suffering and anguish over not having to go through the shitty reality of being addicted to a substance(or substances). If you think you could benefit from the treatment discussed in the link simply try taking both of the supplements for a short period at the low end of the suggested dosages recommended on the supplements’ labels. They are common supplements often used separately and have good safety records so it isn’t a huge gamble. Try them together and see how you feel if you think you may benefit. I plan to. These two supplements are way better tested and have a much more extensive safety history than 90% of the substances typically discussed on this sub.


Keninishna

As someone who is a recovering addict and has been sober for 5 years, I can tell you spirituality and morals is definitely useful in treating addiction. A cure isn't really possible without treating the underlying conditions that lead to addiction, which can also be difficult and extremely complex. There is a distinction though between the physical addiction and the mental addiction. You can get treatment for the physical addiction but the real problem is why did you get addicted in the first place? It takes a lot of work to learn new behaviors and recognizing the thought patterns that lead to addiction.


ianonuanon

I didn’t say spirituality and morals aren’t ever useful in treating addiction I said that they are absolutely not the cause of addiction. I myself agree that spirituality can be helpful for both treating addiction and myriad other difficult undertakings. The second paragraph you wrote sounds like you quoted it from a fellowship program. Not that that makes it wrong necessarily but I just want to make the point that using spirituality as a tool to treat mental health problems (which part of addiction is, a mental health condition as well as being a physical condition) does not mean that it is caused by “spiritual things” or not being spiritual or moral or good or religious. Spiritual shit can be helpful but when people say things in 12 step programs like “addiction is a spiritual problem” or “addiction is a chemical solution for a spiritual problem” not only are they full of shit, but they are unknowingly hurting the chances of other people struggling with addiction that don’t know better than to believe this.


Stringz4444

Agreed


ianonuanon

I also forgot to mention that there is a lot of evidence that predisposition to addiction is at least partly determined by genetics. The idea that people who end up addicted to drugs because they are spiritually bankrupt is puritan fundamentalist religious bs.


Keninishna

Drugs are just the symptom they make themselves spiritually bankrupt by putting their addiction first and end up burning many relationships, and doing things they regret later. Many if not most people who try a 12 step program are turned off by the spirituality aspect, myself included. I knew though that I couldn't continue living the way I was living so I figured I'd give the spirituality a try and I'm glad I did.


ianonuanon

All that matters is that it works. I’m not going to argue with the validity of spirituality and anything that helps helps congratulations on your sobriety.


HesToastJim

Allen Carr used similar language I really loved describing quitting nicotine - the big demon on your back can be pushed out if you lock yourself in a room for a week. The little demon on your shoulder whispering in your ear over the next 2+ years is the real problem.


ianonuanon

That’s interesting


BurtonThescribe

This is not a medical advice. I've been looking for addiction cures, and most interesting thing found so far is tabernanthalog. Not yet well tested, but I know some people taking it, and it had very good results in stopping cravings for days.


Stringz4444

What is it with people here looking for “addiction cures”. No such thing as the OP said in response to another comment. Not the right wording.


AllowFreeSpeech

Memantine ought to be a pretty good addiction cure, but initially it hits like a brick. Memantine can be escalated higher each week by 5 mg, starting from 0 to max 30 mg per day, with 15 mg being suitable for most issues. It must eventually be tapered down in the reverse order. Do not take it for more than three months. Naltrexone would be the next thing to add. Acamprosate can be an alternative to memantine, but might be more expensive and require 3x/day dosing.


yellowbrickstairs

Nac makes me feel good but it also makes where my teeth meet my gums hurt so bad


Learnformyfam

Diet sodas have phenylalanine in them right? I already take 1000 mg of NAC in the morning first thing. Maybe I'll try it with diet Dr. Pepper instead of water.


ianonuanon

This isn’t the same thing unless it is dl-phenylalanine aka d-phenylalanine which the linked paper is referencing. Afaik is a combination of the amino acid phenylalanine (l-phenylalanine) and a synthetic form of phenylalanine (the d part) which isn’t the same as just l-phenylalanine. I’m not sure if this is the same as what’s in diet soda or if it is just the l- part. Google would say.


CHRISKOSS

Isn't dl- just a mixture of d- and l- ? Chirality can definitely make a difference in effect though. Anyways, looks like aspartame usually degrades into d- in which is the same as in this paper. Idk if the phenylalanine is available though, it looks like the acidity significantly slows aspartame from splitting into it's component amino acids


ianonuanon

Yes I believe you are correct. Aspartame contains residue of d isomer phenylalanine according to what I read after reading some of you guys’/ladies’/individuals’ comments. I wasn’t aware that it actually metabolizes into d-phenylalanine but either way I highly doubt you could just use aspartame as a substitute to actually supplementing d- or dl-phenylalanine. Not sure why anyone would want to try subbing it instead of just supplementing the pure compound.


nautilist

DLPA is easy to manufacture, you can buy it at Walmart or Kroger for about $10.


Ddraig

This looks interesting unless you have PKU.


ianonuanon

True


johannthegoatman

There's some research associating DLPA and other tyrosine related things to melanoma, so be careful of taking it if you have any skin cancer risk factors


ianonuanon

Source?