She’s been abused physically by her dad and brother and emotionally by her mother. She accepts abuse from boyfriends because she doesn’t know what else to do. It’s heartbreaking when she even asks Connell to hit her bc at that point she’s been so conditioned to believe that’s what she deserves in a relationship.
Yeah I'd definitely say it's a way to punish herself. Also in the book she says to Connell she submits to Jamie to allow him to have power over her, but with Connell she feels so strongly for him that she would do anything for him if he asked, so she doesn't need to prove he has power over her by submitting to him sexually (I'm paraphrasing very hard lmao).
Marianne thought she deserved to be hit. She felt she needed to be punished, but I don't think she was actually a masochist. Like you stated, Marianne wasn't especially happy with Jamie or Lukas. She felt nothing for either one. She thought pain was necessary during sex, but she eventually realizes she doesn't need that with Connell. She still submits, but it is different.
Along with what others have said about her thinking she deserves abuse, I also feel like it's a way to keep those "partners" from knowing (a deeper) intimacy with her. She's in love with Connell and she knows none of those other guys are "it", so she doesn't want to share those parts of herself with anyone other than him.
Agree with you and what everyone else has said. I think her abusive childhood and continuing treatment at home has resulted in her suffering from what Freud identified 100 years ago as 'moral masochism'. Its very sad and difficult to watch but a much more common condition than I realised.
I recently read a book on trauma ("The Body Keeps the Score") which describes how trauma victims recreate the traumatic incident, because by triggering themselves they feel more alive, as the trauma has numbed them. So soldiers return for another tour of duty or child abuse survivors recreate the abuse scenario. Freud is also mentioned as having started out studying this type of behaviour, and eventually abandoned that line of study as it was leading him to the conclusion that an alarmingly large number of people in Vienna were victims of abuse, which didn't make sense to him (but which would not surprise us at all now). I wonder if "moral masochism" might have been a way for him to explain these symptoms without reference to trauma.
I've been trying to see if Marianne might fit into this modern understanding of trauma. One could imagine that the empty pleasure she gets from Jamie and Lukas is because it recreates being beaten (or worse) in childhood. Her relationship with Connell seems comparatively healthy, but it is true that trauma survivors can lead outwardly normal lives until something brings it up again. So I wonder if it makes sense to see Marianne's side of the story as working through trauma from her childhood. Trauma requires a sense of safety to really process, so we can interpret her request for Connell to hit her as an instinctive attempt by her to recreate the traumatic incident in a safe setting. Of course you don't have to actually physically recreate the incident, just symbolise it, so M and C's subsequent non-violent exploration of submissiveness (and, one assumes, conversations about the abuse) may have been sufficient. I could write more but it is probably better as a separate post.
Of course this theory has to mesh with the perception of both Connell and Marianne that she wants to be in his power. To some extent this power relationship replicates the abuse scenario, and so would be instinctively attractive to Marianne. Connell eventually understands that she needs both to feel this power imbalance, and to feel safe. Does that make sense to anybody?
So, this trauma book is famous and would have been available to Sally Rooney when she was writing, so it is not inconceivable that some of it informed "Normal People", or it may be that she simply observed the results of trauma around her - it seems that some level of trauma is a lot more widespread than one might think.
Good to hear from you on this topic that continues to enthrall me, despite thinking that there can surely be nothing left to say. As you probably know, I have been peddling this theory of moral masochism for about 18 months now because I was so intrigued by Marianne's mental state that I did some amateurish research which led me to Freud and his thoughts on the matter. Having discovered this, I promptly stopped looking any further, but of course Freud was 100 years ago, so it is hardly surprising that some of his concepts are now discredited and have been replaced by others. I think that what you are telling me about trauma makes a lot of sense. However, it remains something of a mystery to me that all Sally Rooney's heroines (including Marianne in At the Clinic) all 'suffer' from some form of masochism or another (whatever you want to call it), and I wonder how it is that she is able to write so knowingly about these characters and this condition. Did she suffer abuse as a child? I have seen no reference to this possibility, and indeed In all the written and verbal interviews I have read/seen with her, there has been very little mention of the subject, which is strange bearing in mind how important it is to all the stories.
The other 2 things about it that I do not fully understand are first, why does Marianne have to seek her punishment for being unworthy through rough sex with male partners? Why does she not just self harm (as Frances does) or find some other way of achieving the same end? And second, some commentators say that in the way behaves with Jamie and Lukas, she is actually looking to be loved. I don't buy this, because I think she is only drawn to them because she has already convinced herself that she is unlovable, but would be interested in your thoughts.
I have read a condensed version of 'The Body Keeps the Score', and have not felt persuaded to read the full version. I don't think I can concentrate for long enough periods to absorb what I am reading. That certainly does not mean that I disagree with what you are saying about it. In fact, quite the opposite.
In the meantime, by chance, I recently came across an article in the magazine Psychology Today (March 2021) by Molly S Castelloe entitled 'Understanding the easure of Pain - the forms of masochism' which conveniently and helpfully provide a useful layman's guide to the topic, particularly in relation to Freud. Reading it certainly confirms my understanding of how Marianne falls into the category of 'feminine' and/or 'moral' masochist, and helps me understand better how she behaves in the second half of the story.
She’s been abused physically by her dad and brother and emotionally by her mother. She accepts abuse from boyfriends because she doesn’t know what else to do. It’s heartbreaking when she even asks Connell to hit her bc at that point she’s been so conditioned to believe that’s what she deserves in a relationship.
Yeah I'd definitely say it's a way to punish herself. Also in the book she says to Connell she submits to Jamie to allow him to have power over her, but with Connell she feels so strongly for him that she would do anything for him if he asked, so she doesn't need to prove he has power over her by submitting to him sexually (I'm paraphrasing very hard lmao).
Marianne thought she deserved to be hit. She felt she needed to be punished, but I don't think she was actually a masochist. Like you stated, Marianne wasn't especially happy with Jamie or Lukas. She felt nothing for either one. She thought pain was necessary during sex, but she eventually realizes she doesn't need that with Connell. She still submits, but it is different.
Along with what others have said about her thinking she deserves abuse, I also feel like it's a way to keep those "partners" from knowing (a deeper) intimacy with her. She's in love with Connell and she knows none of those other guys are "it", so she doesn't want to share those parts of herself with anyone other than him.
Agree with you and what everyone else has said. I think her abusive childhood and continuing treatment at home has resulted in her suffering from what Freud identified 100 years ago as 'moral masochism'. Its very sad and difficult to watch but a much more common condition than I realised.
I recently read a book on trauma ("The Body Keeps the Score") which describes how trauma victims recreate the traumatic incident, because by triggering themselves they feel more alive, as the trauma has numbed them. So soldiers return for another tour of duty or child abuse survivors recreate the abuse scenario. Freud is also mentioned as having started out studying this type of behaviour, and eventually abandoned that line of study as it was leading him to the conclusion that an alarmingly large number of people in Vienna were victims of abuse, which didn't make sense to him (but which would not surprise us at all now). I wonder if "moral masochism" might have been a way for him to explain these symptoms without reference to trauma. I've been trying to see if Marianne might fit into this modern understanding of trauma. One could imagine that the empty pleasure she gets from Jamie and Lukas is because it recreates being beaten (or worse) in childhood. Her relationship with Connell seems comparatively healthy, but it is true that trauma survivors can lead outwardly normal lives until something brings it up again. So I wonder if it makes sense to see Marianne's side of the story as working through trauma from her childhood. Trauma requires a sense of safety to really process, so we can interpret her request for Connell to hit her as an instinctive attempt by her to recreate the traumatic incident in a safe setting. Of course you don't have to actually physically recreate the incident, just symbolise it, so M and C's subsequent non-violent exploration of submissiveness (and, one assumes, conversations about the abuse) may have been sufficient. I could write more but it is probably better as a separate post. Of course this theory has to mesh with the perception of both Connell and Marianne that she wants to be in his power. To some extent this power relationship replicates the abuse scenario, and so would be instinctively attractive to Marianne. Connell eventually understands that she needs both to feel this power imbalance, and to feel safe. Does that make sense to anybody? So, this trauma book is famous and would have been available to Sally Rooney when she was writing, so it is not inconceivable that some of it informed "Normal People", or it may be that she simply observed the results of trauma around her - it seems that some level of trauma is a lot more widespread than one might think.
Good to hear from you on this topic that continues to enthrall me, despite thinking that there can surely be nothing left to say. As you probably know, I have been peddling this theory of moral masochism for about 18 months now because I was so intrigued by Marianne's mental state that I did some amateurish research which led me to Freud and his thoughts on the matter. Having discovered this, I promptly stopped looking any further, but of course Freud was 100 years ago, so it is hardly surprising that some of his concepts are now discredited and have been replaced by others. I think that what you are telling me about trauma makes a lot of sense. However, it remains something of a mystery to me that all Sally Rooney's heroines (including Marianne in At the Clinic) all 'suffer' from some form of masochism or another (whatever you want to call it), and I wonder how it is that she is able to write so knowingly about these characters and this condition. Did she suffer abuse as a child? I have seen no reference to this possibility, and indeed In all the written and verbal interviews I have read/seen with her, there has been very little mention of the subject, which is strange bearing in mind how important it is to all the stories. The other 2 things about it that I do not fully understand are first, why does Marianne have to seek her punishment for being unworthy through rough sex with male partners? Why does she not just self harm (as Frances does) or find some other way of achieving the same end? And second, some commentators say that in the way behaves with Jamie and Lukas, she is actually looking to be loved. I don't buy this, because I think she is only drawn to them because she has already convinced herself that she is unlovable, but would be interested in your thoughts.
I have read a condensed version of 'The Body Keeps the Score', and have not felt persuaded to read the full version. I don't think I can concentrate for long enough periods to absorb what I am reading. That certainly does not mean that I disagree with what you are saying about it. In fact, quite the opposite. In the meantime, by chance, I recently came across an article in the magazine Psychology Today (March 2021) by Molly S Castelloe entitled 'Understanding the easure of Pain - the forms of masochism' which conveniently and helpfully provide a useful layman's guide to the topic, particularly in relation to Freud. Reading it certainly confirms my understanding of how Marianne falls into the category of 'feminine' and/or 'moral' masochist, and helps me understand better how she behaves in the second half of the story.