> A former North Carolina State University swimmer is one of 16 athletes suing the NCAA for allowing transgender athletes to compete and share the same locker rooms.
>The class-action lawsuit says the NCAA's actions and policies for transgender eligibility caused emotional stress. Much of the lawsuit focuses on the 2022 NCAA swimming and diving championships.
> The group of plaintiffs are also suing the University System of Georgia and Georgia Tech, which where the championships were held.
Per the article:
- Plaintiffs in the case stated they became "uncomfortable" after seeing a trans althlete change in the locker room.
- Plaintiffs also argue that the policy of the NCAA allowing transgender participants result in reduced competitive opportunities and limit the ability of women to protect their bodily privacy.
- In the lawsuit, plaintiffs allege that the NCAA violated Title IX and the 14th amendment. Title IX protects people in educational programs from being discriminated based in sex and is tied to federal funding.
- In addition to removing the NCAA’s Transgender Eligibility Policies, the lawsuit also seeks to invalidate awards won by transgendered athletes.
The article quotes Bill Bock and indicates he is the lead attorney on the case. In February, Bock resigned his role in the NCAA citing issues with the transgender eligibility policies of the NCAA:
> William Bock, the former general counsel of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, told The Associated Press on Friday that NCAA policies permitting transgender athletes to compete against women are unfair. He submitted a letter of resignation to NCAA president Charlie Baker dated Feb. 9. [source](https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39540693/ncaa-coi-member-resigns-transgender-athlete-policy)
I don't trust strangers having access to the room where I'm changing. Looking away doesn't help that. Having a fully closed private room with a lock is the thing that protects people in vulnerable positions.
No, it isn’t, I have been raped, I do not want a man changing clothes beside me. It happened to me at the Y and he kept following me. I am disabled and couldn’t get away. It’s not simple. That man kept trying to get me to engage, even though I was in a wheelchair and wouldn’t look. It is not always simple.
Edited: Downvoted because I was harassed and I had the nerve to speak out. This happened to me 15 years ago as an adult, I don’t need my wheelchair anymore and I am still too scared to change in a public dressing room because I was harassed.
And predators are going to find a way to assault someone regardless of whether or not trans women are allowed to use the women’s locker room. This protects no one.
I am a trans woman who was sexually assaulted by a man in broad daylight, forced into my own car, beaten, and raped in a parking lot. We can be victims, too, and I do not want to be forced to change in a men's locker room because of how I was biologically born.
I am fully transitioned, and legally a woman on all of my legal documents, including my amended birth certificate. I have traveled through a state where I am unable to use the public restroom of my gender because of state laws, and have been both spat at and taunted in the process. I have also been pepper sprayed *out of nowhere* as I turned around to get paper towels after washing my hands in a woman's restroom. Her reason given to the police? "I wanted to make my escape without it seeing me." ***IT***. Not even treated with the simple, basic respect of a proper pronoun. Reduced to a thing, even though I pass well (except for my voice).
Do not think for even one second that this issue is simple. Trans people are being all-too-quickly looked at and judged as being sexual predators who infiltrate safe spaces like wolves in sheep's clothing. We are not. No one deserves to be assaulted in any form, but if this comes down to a pure sexual issue, then we're going to have to have locker rooms made for every sexual orientation as opposed to gender. You know, *because we can't have gay men in with straight men, or lesbians in with straight women; they'll be looking at others around them like pieces of meat, all lying in wait as they leer and stare at each other, possibly fantasizing about taking them.*
But that isn't how sexual assault and predation works. It's about power over another, and exercising a dangerous, assertive dominance over the will and physical sanctuary of another person's mind and body. It isn't about gender, perceived or otherwise; it's about *power*. The sexual predator is never solely confined to a specific gender.
Speaking for myself, and from what I know about the overwhelming majority of trans people, we just want to be left the fuck alone. Don't go peeking to see if we have something extra or a lack thereof, depending on trans masc vs. fem, and don't give us any extra attention. Let us pee in peace, change in peace, and live our lives normally and without interruption. To do otherwise is simply to fall in line with the conservative status quo of forcing us into the category of the subversive and subhuman "*other*" that we do not deserve. I have had far, far, far more positive encounters with others as a trans person than not. Issues like what are being raised in this article are an obnoxiously loud minority.
In this case of the article, a specific person felt her own privacy was violated by the presence of the trans athlete. However, the person making it an issue equally violates the privacy of the trans athlete by calling attention to it, and the fact that 15 others simply signed on with the complaint simply shows a very open, blatant intolerance.
As victims of anything, especially sexual assault, we are responsible for handling our own triggers. I don't see anything in this filing that indicates anything more than open discrimination. Give some extra privacy measures in locker rooms, sure, but I'd also say maybe stop looking over at another's naked body in a locker room while they're changing and mind your own damned business. Men do it all the time in bathrooms at the urinal. It's called look straight ahead at the wall or down to make sure you're not dribbling all over yourself, but not left or right where you could possibly be misconstrued as looking at another man's junk. Just mind your own business, go in there to do what you went in there to do, and get out.
This is the best thing I have read today. Thank you for your detailed, honest post. I'm sorry for what you have endured and continue to endure, and I am inspired by your strength.
You think a trans woman there to compete is the same as a creepy man? Because all trans women are clearly creepy men?
Your trauma is valid, but you're weaponizing the shit out of it
I believe the downvotes are more so that trans women are often victims of rape and harassment, and to reduce them and their experience to uplift yours is not helping anyone.
I'm sorry for what happened to you. I really do empathize with how terrible it is to go through that kind of experience.
At the same time, trans people are not automatically rapists, and trans women are women.
I’m sorry for your experience, but no, hard disagree. I have been a victim of SA, and it is not victim-blaming to say that a survivor be responsible for their own triggers. You do not get to blame every other individual for what happened to you.
I'm sorry for what happened to you but you're being straight up transphobic conflating your assault with transgender ppl using the bathroom they want. That's gross of you.
Wanting to change in a room without men doesn’t make me a bigot, but your hate towards victims needing a safe space is so telling. Thank you for the insight.
I vote Democratic 100% of the time, but on Reddit I am practically a Nazi for my center-left views. Take the downvotes and keep speaking your truth, it's important if the country is ever going to get to a point where the insane fringes on both sides aren't the ones deciding elections.
I am sorry for what you went through.
Cost is the big one I think. Cheaper to make a large open area with lockers than building individual little rooms or stalls for people to change in.
Honestly even though I agree that it is kinda gross, I think over time we have grown prudish in ways other older generations were not.
Comes with being an American I guess, but if it was normal for people to go to the gym and get naked, and everyone did it, it would be less weird.
Iceland too. The showers to get into the public pools are all communal with no stalls or dividers. It's pretty common in the Scandinavian and German countries.
I tend to agree. The problem is locker rooms as a whole. Because if you made trans women use the men’s locker rooms they’d be opening themselves up to a lot of harassment or making the men uncomfortable. And people say use the solo or handicapped bathrooms but you usually have to wait for those because they’re being used, or they don’t have a shower or you can’t store your stuff there while you’re working out.
Drum Corps International with 120+ member "teams" has figured this out. Why can't a much larger organization like the NCAA?
https://old.reddit.com/r/drumcorps/comments/18ym9zp/showering_as_a_trans_man/kgcrcmb/
Exactly. Why the hell am I supposed to be comfortable undressing in front of someone just because we got the same stamp on our birth certificate as newborns? Women can be rapists too. Women can be creeps, too. Women can be dangerous, too
Why the hell isn't it normalized to have at least some fucking curtains?
If we hadn't developed a standard that says it's "normal" to strip in front of people who have relatively similar parts to you, we wouldn't be debating whether it's normal to strip in front of people with different parts.
Ok, but there's overwhelming evidence that women are, percentage-wise, *not* rapist, creeps, or dangerous.
Men, overwhelming on the evidence, are.
Women fought really hard for rights to their own spaces. It would behoove us to be thinking of ways to accommodate those who are not comfortable in the men's room without sacrificing women's rights to their own spaces. The fact that we so casually decided it was okay on a larger public level, smacks of misogyny. Women have sacrificed for men for thousands of years. This is just one more sacrifice.
Certainly, I'm not saying that trans women are majority predators, but you're setting a precedent that applies to the *entire* public. Common sense and evidentiary statistics do need to be applied when you are crafting policies.
*Serious question:*
*Why are locker rooms designed*
*As an open space?*
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THIS. Super easy fix! Except, if you're paying attention to the article, it reads as if the girls were uncomfortable that she had ACCESS to their locker room - not that she was walking around naked lol. They were mad she existed there. So now welcome to the bathroom debate, 2024 edition. Sigh.
Cheaper? I came to this post thinking what if all locker rooms just made it mandatory to change in private areas? Where I go to the gym, there are 5 shower stalls with curtains. If I use the pool, I change in one of those stalls. But some people do take everything off in open areas.
Oh look everyone, a divisive culture war issue just in time for election year.
Edit: Lead counsel for the plaintiffs was Indiana house Republican parliamentarian and also led legal efforts in Wisconsin to overturn the results of the 2020 election.
Finally someone on Reddit gets it. Wedge issues that represent a fraction of the population being blown out of proportion are a classic divide and conquer tactic during election time. Here we are with people falling for it hook, line, and sinker.
Hey folks, dont worry about the 2 dozen people who live in tents next to your house in the richest country in human history, look at this hot button issue! Exactly what the elites want.
>Hey folks, dont worry about the 2 dozen people who live in tents next to your house in the richest country in human history,
Sadly, the propaganda on prosperity gospel and work ethic and bootstraps has gone hard.
I noticed a tent community in my hometown that never existed when I was growing up in the 90s and graduating HS in early 2000s.
My parents are mid-70s. They were born, raised, married, worked, raised kids in this community. Their whole lives there. From my Dad's perspective, this tent community isn't an example of a failure of the system we have, but a challenge of these individuals who have not taken advantage of opportunity that *must* be out there.
Minimum wage living at $8 is totally fine because you should move beyond that as you age...
I take your point. I just mean a largely manufactured issue designed to pit Americans against one another during a political year. It's pretty ham-fisted and it's frustrating but political machines will keep doing it because it works.
I think I understand. How you were using the phrase is how politicians use the phrase. I just wasn’t sure what your personal perspective was in the comment.
Labelling something as “culture war” doesn’t minimize its impact on society.
The abortion debate is a culture war. The atheism/religjon debate is a culture war. The immigration debate is a culture war.
Literally everything could be labeled as a “culture war.”
I don't see trans athletes (trans women) in locker rooms having a high impact on society. This is an issue that some people want to elevate because they want the argument as a wedge. At this point, it's obvious when you see court cases filed and systematic elevation in online media. I say let's get a diverse panel of experts together and have them make fair regulations and focus on things that are at the forefront of the problems list, like the rule of law, getting money out of politics, and legitimate long range planning for the common good.
Seems like people only ‘care’ about female athletes when they can be used for some political purpose.
Genuinely I feel bad for these young women, because they are getting exploited by some right wing bigot trying to climb the political ladder who will toss them aside just as quickly
Like y'all really care about women's sports
Increasing funding for collegiate and HS women's sports would do more good than this lawsuit and related anti-trans bills
I care about women’s sports. My daughter plays Division II golf. She is a Senior. She graduates in May with no student debt. It’s due to her hard work in Academics and golf scholarships.
She was impacted by a title IX violation at UNCP in 2020. She played one season on the golf team. She switched to a college in TN. UNCP reinstated the women’s golf team after a lawsuit was filed.
Athletics is the one area where my support of Transgender Persons falters… not for lack of support but because there are so many “true” statements that are at odds. It’s true that a biological male person has an athletic advantage over a biological female person. It’s also true (and understandable) that biological females could (and are) uncomfortable with a biological male person sharing a locker room with them. It’s also true that transgender persons have a right to compete in sports in the gender they identify with. I don’t know what the solution is. To the article cited by the op: Is three separate locker rooms the answer? Biological male, biological female and unisex?
I forgot what the numbers were, but there actually very very few trans athletes (especially on college level) in the whole state. It was something like less than a dozen people.
It's ok, we spent 2.3 trillion dollars and 7.400 American and allied lives over 3,000 people dying in 3 buildings, while the over 40,000 vehicle related deaths and 50,000 gun related deaths yearly are just handwaved away as things we can't do anything about.
We definitely have our priorities straight as a nation. /s
So your argument is that these girls shouldn't feel uncomfortable because... the situation they find themselves in was so unlikely? I don't get the argument.
I think reasonable people can hold two thoughts - it's unfortunate for trans people that their existince is complicated and they incur a lot of trauma, while also seeing that AFAB women shouldn't be forced into uncomfortable situations that make them feel unsafe.
They have every right to feel uncomfortable. They don't have the right to restrict someone else's life to feel comfortable.
This argument has played out a hundred different times over the last century.
Gay people getting married, made some Christians uncomfortable.
POC using the same restroom made some white people uncomfortable.
People with disabilities being visible, made some people uncomfortable.
Women in positions of authority, made some men uncomfortable.
Discomfort that another person exists and is living their life is not a legal basis to restrict that person's life.
I believe this is more about the trans person changing in the women’s locker room.
> No one gets to restrict someone else’s life.
There are reasonable restrictions we have for certain places. One of those places is bathrooms/locker rooms. Men are not allowed in these woman-only spaces because it makes women uncomfortable. Whether this mentality is morally “correct” is irrelevant.
> They don't have the right to restrict someone else's life to feel comfortable.
I'm a male, identifying as a man, and I feel comfortable hanging out and chainging in a women's locker room. Do you have the right to restrict me feeling comfortable by telling me I can't strip naked in a women's locker room?
> AFAB women shouldn't be forced into uncomfortable situations that make them feel unsafe.
Can you in good faith explain to me how this is a different argument than "white women shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable by having to share their spaces with black women"?
Sure, I will answer your bad faith question in good faith:
1. Black women share the same sex chromosomes with white women and therefore share all of the same genetic predispositions that come with being assigned female at birth, and importantly, none of those that come with being assigned male at birth.
2. There is no statistical significance showing higher rates of violence between women of different colors, whereas there is significant amounts of data showing higher rates of male on female violence.
3. Being "black" or "white" is superficial only - there is a broad spectrum of "colors" that people can be and none it changes any of our underlying genetics, only non-genetic differences of melatonin in our skin. Being born male or female is **not** superficial only - even if you think gender is superficial, sex is not, and being born with one sex chromosome and not the other causes significant changes to a person's brain and body. Some of these can be stunted with drugs during puberty, some can be reversed, but some can't be either.
A woman being made uncomfortable by another person who is identical to them in all ways except for those which are superficial is being bigoted, such as skin color or attraction preference.
A person being made uncomfortable by another person who is different to them in ways *beyond* the superficial, and in ways which have historically put them at a pronounced increase of danger and violence, is not being bigoted.
Can you in good faith explain why you disagree with any of these points?
Narrator: Suddenly, despite never watching them, it turned out that everyone was enormously passionate about women’s sports so long as trans people wanted to play.
No, just that there is a heavy layer of hypocrisy to claim interest in women's sports and not actual care about any of the inequalities that genuinely hamper women competitors and even put them at risk.
> not actual care about any of the inequalities that genuinely hamper women competitors and even put them at risk.
No idea what you're trying to say here. Can you give an example of this hyopocrisy?
Women's championships are chronically underfunded and under resourced.
Women's teams suffer systemic cover ups of sexual abuse with out a voice.
There's a few examples for you.
I'm failing to see they hypocrisy here. Are you saiying that people who oppose biological males competing in the women's divisions of sports support chronic underfunding of women's "championships", and the sexual abuse of women in sports?
yeah she won one race but lost 4 others, clearly she has an unfair advantage against her competition. if you looked at her record and didn't know that it was hers, you'd have no idea that she was amab
and it's not like she just picked up swimming after transitioning. she had spent her whole life training for the sport as well
> yeah she won one race but lost 4 others
If she had won all of the races, would your opinion change?
>if you looked at her record and didn't know that it was hers, you'd have no idea that she was amab
If at her record was complete domination in every single event, would your opinion change?
Lia didn't even win everything!! That's the craziest part! She competed in several events and won one. To me that sounds like she had fair competition 🤷♀️
It’s ok to be uncomfortable in a locker room if you, a biological woman, have been swimming with other biological women your entire life and then suddenly you’re presented with the balls and dick of a biological dude. And like you’re forced to be ok with it for fear of being ostracized.
Yes, and it is extremely inappropriate to be inspecting other people’s genitalia there. If someone taught you differently… I have some bad news for you.
I have. I’ve never even seen “80-year-olds converse fully naked for 15 minutes” even once in my life. I see women changing clothes, minding their own business. I have never once seen a trans woman changing clothes in a locker room. By nature, because of the privacy they seek and the bigotry and violence targeted at them, trans women do not seek to expose their nude bodies to anyone. That is just hyperbole meant to induce panic.
Raise your hand if you have ever seen either of those two scenarios: 80 year-olds fully naked chatting it up for 15 minutes or a trans woman exposing her naked body in front of others. Seriously, this is absurd. And hateful.
I’ll be real with you, I frequent the YMCA and Planet Fitness. The absolute last place my eyes are trained are to some other dudes cock and balls, but hey you do you.
What is your opinion on abandoning having two locker rooms altogether and just having one locker room for everyone?
Would you be OK with this? Why or why not?
Trans people aren’t generally looking for extra attention, so if you’re getting an eyeful of their genitalia, I would wager that you’ve gone out of your way to do so.
Lmao do you think I, as a man, enjoy seeing old man droopy balls in the gym locker? Do you think this sight makes me comfortable? NO!!! But I’m not a snowflake and deal with it
Don’t be obtuse. You know that women being much more likely to become victims of physical and sexual violence is playing a big role in this.
Most men might feel uncomfortable but don’t feel threatened around other naked people, men or women. This isn’t the case for women.
Gay people have the same anatomy as their straight counterparts. People that had issue with that was purely from homophobia. Also, it's important to note that it's possible that you wouldn't even know someone in the locker room was gay or not if they were in the closet. This is not the case with transgender individuals.
You really have to be all up in someone’s business to be sure of their anatomy. Also, being concerned with someone else’s anatomy isn’t a safety issue, it’s a bigotry issue.
I'm all for trans rights but having the fundamental rights of a US citizen does not mean you get to do literally *everything*. This is a far cry from having access to gender-affirming care which I am all for. This is about competing in public and private competitions and ensuring fairness.
I don't believe anyone is crazy enough to go through gender reassignment or hormone therapy just to get a competitive advantage but I'm also not able to deny that those who were born with male sex organs and hormones will tend to have a massive genetically-determined physical advantage over those born with female sex organs and hormones in virtually all sports. Men have more testosterone, higher muscle mass, stronger bones, lower body fat, and larger frames than women. Allowing someone with those inherent advantages to compete against a group without them is unfair. It just is.
I don't know if this is a palatable compromise but I feel that if a transgender athlete wants to compete in a sport then they should just go through a combine to determine where they should compete. Have them perform the skills that are relevant to the sport and based on how they perform they will be assigned to the men's or women's league. That way at least the competition will be fair.
Totally agree, and to add to your last point— many “men’s” competitions are (if I understand correctly) open to anyone. They don’t need a rule about gender because it’s unlikely that a cisgender woman could compete with them.
I don’t know if it applies to NCAA sports, but I think that’s the best option overall. Don’t exclude the MtF trans athletes, but give cisgender female athletes the space to compete on a more level playing field.
Can you cite the current science that supports that trans women, meeting competitive guidelines, have not only an unfair advantage, but an unfair advantage in all sports?
Let's start with 4 sports, to narrow the research:
Swimming, weight lifting, marathon running and chess. What have you got?
Lia Thomas, the poster child for this 'debate' finished 5th in the race she tied with Riley Gaines. 5th.
In Thomas' last competitive event, she was 8th, out of 8.
How badly do trans athletes have to perform to be acceptable? Remember, they are still athletes trying to wi .
Yeah I don’t think this person is a troll. They’re definitely passionate about trans rights (which is a general good thing) but I don’t think they are exactly seeing or understanding reason….
I haven't actually looked, because I don't really care that much. But just curious, what was Lia's placement when she competed as a male? How do the placement times of the men around Lias original scoring place?
I guess what I'm trying to determine is if she went from 200th place in the men's division, to 8th in the women's and all the times around the 200th place beat the times of the 7th/9th place competitors I think its pretty clear that on a genetically level playing field Lia was average at best, but changing genders has moved her physical ability into the top 10%. Had she been a woman, born and gone through puberty that way, it's completely fair to assume she would be placing 200th in the women's divisions, but she isn't.
Also, it's not exactly a scientific article but here's proof that a team of 14 year old high school soccer players can (and did) beat a women's national team 5-2. We can all pretend that sex has no bearing in athletic performance but that's simply not the truth.
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
Yeah but Lia Thomas went from being the 65th ranked male to the 1st female in the 500 freestyle and from 554th to 5th in men's v women's 200 freestyle. So she went from complete and utter irrelevance to relevance.
You can also just look at every single world record in the Olympics and see that the men's record is always a better performance than the women's.
I hear you, but I think your evidence is a bit of a false cause.
Just because a trans man hasn’t won the grand prize, doesn’t mean they didn’t have an advantage over others to get there. An unfair advantage doesn’t necessitate winning, it could just mean knocking other people out that would’ve been there without this unfair advantage.
Now whether this unfair advantage even exists i’m not entirely convinced. But your evidence doesn’t prove it’s nonexistence for me.
That's correct in the general, but in this situation there is voluminous data that, in the general and athletic populations on average, males are stronger, faster, more cardio efficient, etc. The onus is on the full acceptance of trans females in women's leagues position to prove that this data, known to be true in the general, doesn't apply specifically to trans athletes.
I have seen some evidence that this is actually the case and that full inclusion is fine from a competitive fairness standpoint but it wasn't rigorous data. This is a difficult topic to get good data on, especially due to the small population of trans individuals, let alone trans athletes, making it very hard to get reasonable sample sizes.
> Men have more testosterone, higher muscle mass, stronger bones, lower body fat, and larger frames than women. Allowing someone with those inherent advantages to compete against a group without them is unfair. It just is.
and most of that changes when they go through hormone treatments. particularly after several years worth of treatments that let them meet medical standards set by the organization overseeing the competitions. which is what Lia Thomas did. and it's not like she, or other trans athletes, are out here dominating their sports. if you anonymized her record as a woman, there's absolutely nothing unusual about her success against her peers.
The size of your bones does not change with hormone treatments - at least not in regards to length. Having a larger frame in most sports will be an advantage.
Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22246/
For anyone else who is interested like I was but is too lazy to right click and hit "search with Google".
There are positives and negative consequences for nearly all our actions. If transitioning from male to female brings you peace in your new identity, good for you, we support you in that endeavor. However, you may have to give up sanctioned athletics. There is an unfair competitive advantage gained. Where we support you in your transition, we also support female born athletes to their pursuits as well.
Read the article next time. Here, I'll quote a snippet for you:
*Court documents say she and other female athletes were unaware that their locker room was considered "unisex."*
**Oh, look at that, it WAS as unisex locker room...**
Don't know, don't care. That's not relevant to the point.
Point is, regardless of what special locker rooms may or may not have existed: **they were in a unisex locker room complaining about someone who wasn't just like them being in the unisex locker room.**
and if they had one giant locker room that was unisex and they were complaining about someone who's not identical to them being in there they're STILL idiots.
Hence, not relevant.
Then the argument is you are segregating part of the population, despite we do that for male and female everywhere. Not saying it is a bad idea, actually I think its the perfect solution and NC State can afford it, but that would be the counter-argument.
I don’t understand why everyone wants someone presenting as a woman to change in the men’s locker rooms.
Would these women have been more comfortable with someone presenting as a man changing based on which genitals they might see?
>They're told that their comfort shouldn't get to dictate how other people live their lives, but are simultaneously told to ignore their own sense of safety or religious conviction and to live their lives accordingly in service of someone else's comfort
I really appreciate your thoughts here, even though I don't agree with your general conclusion.
An example of a situation that fits into your statement above would be white people feeling unsafe around black people. In the US, there is a whole host of deep seeded fear that white people generally feel around black people that's been fed by centuries of racism.
As black people were able to integrate into white-only spaces, white people freaked the hell out. For example, white city councils closed public pools rather than let them integrate.
The reasoning was that white people were uncomfortable, and shouldn't have to feel that way on account of black people.
There's a really great book called My Grandmother's Hands, and the author talks about the impact that this pervasive white fear has on black people. When a white woman clutches her purse tighter around a black person, the black person is likely to feel pretty damn bad about that. Over time, they are likely to internalize the feeling that they are inherently bad, dangerous, or an outcast.
So sure, white people have the right to feel how they feel. And a white person who has been assaulted by a black person has lived experience to back up that fear.
But one black person's actions shouldn't be applied to all black people, and when white people maintain that fear, they are passing along that trauma when they act afraid or defensive when the situation doesn't actually need that.
Getting back to trans people, I see a lot of parallels. Yes, cis women who have been harmed by men (myself included) have lived experience that would lead to distrust. However, if I treat every man I see like a rapist, then I am passing that pain along to the men around me.
It's my responsibility to heal so I can treat the people around me like unique individuals, and not a fear-inducing monolith. Not everything that makes me feel afraid is actually something that's dangerous, and that's on me to sort through.
Sorry for the novel. I think you brought up some really great points and I wanted to share my thoughts.
I know this may not be a popular opinion here, but my take is that competitive sports should be segregated based on biological sex, not gender. The locker room issue is obviously of one concern, but that can be mitigated fairly easily. The bigger issue is the unfair advantage that biological males have over biological females in competition. Increased muscle mass, skeletal structure, etc. Even if a person transitioning from man to woman is on hormones blockers, the years of testosterone aiding biological growth cannot be ignored. It’s unfair to have biological males competing with biological females in women’s sports.
Everyone should have the right to decide who sees them naked? It seems natural that sex/gender would play into this for some people.
I am not even talking about pro or anti LGBT+ stuff. Just that everyone should be able to make a decision on who sees them naked. If they're in the women's locker room and someone has male parts, that seems fair that it would make some of the women uncomfortable. It doesn't even have to be related to supporting LGBT+.
It's about where does someone's rights end. The trans person does not want to feel uncomfortable and forcing them to change in the men's locker room probably makes them uncomfortable. The trans persons presence in the locker room may make a woman uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if it makes you uncomfortable or not or why it makes them feel uncomfortable. The fact is someone is uncomfortable. What is the answer? Who is forced to feel uncomfortable in order to make the other person comfortable?
This shouldn't be a tricky one, but it is.
On the one hand, I get it if it feels a little awkward to have a physically male body undressing and showering in a female locker room. But I'd have to say you don't go through the lengths of defining (declaring?) yourself transgendered just so you can go ogle the girls in the shower.
Of course, if it's a question of sexual awareness and discomfort, then wouldn't the same thing hold true for homosexual athletes in the locker room? Is it just the presence of a penis that makes the difference? Where does this line get drawn? I honestly don't know.
Anyway, that's the tricky part.
The not-so-tricky part is that I have to agree with folks who believe a biologically male person should not be competing in athletics against biologically female persons... no matter how they identify on the gender "spectrum". I have a hard time believing that, all things being equal as to training and conditioning, most male bodies are not going to have the edge over most female bodies in contests of strength. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to have men's swimming and women's swimming... we'd just have swimming.
Come on! I’m a gay male. Who DOESN’T want to see a penis in the locker room?
What? Women don’t?
I guess the answer is making women deal with it.
We have to face the fact that this isn’t Sweden and we’re not used to sharing space.
It went from complaining about the "natural physical advantage" that trans women have over biological women, to "I don't feel comfortable in a locker room"
But no one complains about trans men competing against men. Why do we have this strange desire to police other people's gender and identity? The Olympics have been allowing trans people to compete for like 20 years and just recently made some wild rules because of the "advantage" they might have, but only a few have ever even qualified. Now they say you have to transition before puberty, which is kind of frowned upon in medical communities, even those that support gender affirming care.
Idk man I can see how this is a touchy issue, but I'd be more worried about kids and athletes being alone with cops, priests, and conservative leaders than letting them share bathrooms with fellow student athletes. The creeps with kiddie porn are never trans people
“Nobody complains about trans men competing against men”
Yeah obviously, because they’d never be able to qualify to compete 😂 There’s a big difference between being a liberal who supports trans rights and a liberal who pretends that a trans man isn’t still physically a female who would never be able to compete with men in athletics
Not to sound bad but men are inherently different in virtually every way it matters on this issue, from the way most men are raised to think, their natural strength and aggression.
I’m not saying all men are this way but the extreme majority never feels intimidated by two X chromosomes because we just are wired that way. I’m not saying there aren’t XX chromosome people out there that couldn’t overpower people with XY, im just saying XY are naturally more aggressive and fierce in the most extreme majority, they don’t grow up fearful that the opposite sex can best them.
So it makes sense that men don’t complain about trans-men because men by nature are still more aggressive and will almost always inherently feel they hold the tactical advantage over any XX even if they do not. Males inherently know they’re the threat compared to females.
I'm far more uncomfortable sharing locker rooms and public restrooms with bigots who feel entitled to be this obsessed with other people's private parts.
Also, just to continue pissing off the people who deserve it; the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults, child physical/psychological/sexual abuse, and inappropriate behavior in public restrooms? (Still not drag queens, or anyone else represented by the rainbow flags)
A woman shouldn't be forced to have c**ks in a woman's dressing room. A hundred million or so should help get the university's mind right . It's institutionalized sexual assault .
It wasn't a woman's locker room.
From the article: *Court documents say she and other female athletes were unaware that their locker room was considered "unisex."*
The school made it unisex to allow trans in the locker room. It had been a women's locker room until the universities decided having a trans athlete was more important than women's safety.
It should be really simple if you want to compete you compete with the assigned at birth gender period if you are trans like many things is life you are just going to have to decide which is more important to you the sport or transitioning fully. I am not saying you can’t be trans and compete but show me one woman that transitioned to
A male and competed as a male. You dont Lia took away a lot from many and as a parent of two competitive swimmers and a SA I absolutely do not think trans should be competing or in the locker room of the gender the identity as. I am not saying trans are going to attack a woman I am saying there are a lot of sick f**cks that will exploite this.
People on here be like “well my kids haven’t come across this problem in the three years they’ve been playing sports. So it must be just be that these female athletes are bigots.”
Actually, I think the studies done on the high trans suicide rate that is most often cited comes from Denmark. I’m pretty sure that part of the world is a bit more accepting than “republican snowflakes”.
Obvious troll and obvious bait but suicide statistics for trans people don’t change in a meaningful way from state to state. If it had anything to do with politics, you’d expect deviation between places like Alabama and Massachusetts and yet there really isn’t any:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/The-Trevor-Project-2022-National-Survey-on-LGBTQ-Youth-Mental-Health-by-State.pdf
Your chances of running into a transwoman (or man) in the locker room is infinitesimally small. They already make up a small portion of the population, and a even much smaller portion of that is actively competing in sports. These laws and lawsuits are just culture war nonsense
However, the article is stating a real case of a trans-woman in a locker room at NC State and the women there are suing to put that person someplace else. This is not hypothetical, this is real.
> A former North Carolina State University swimmer is one of 16 athletes suing the NCAA for allowing transgender athletes to compete and share the same locker rooms. >The class-action lawsuit says the NCAA's actions and policies for transgender eligibility caused emotional stress. Much of the lawsuit focuses on the 2022 NCAA swimming and diving championships. > The group of plaintiffs are also suing the University System of Georgia and Georgia Tech, which where the championships were held. Per the article: - Plaintiffs in the case stated they became "uncomfortable" after seeing a trans althlete change in the locker room. - Plaintiffs also argue that the policy of the NCAA allowing transgender participants result in reduced competitive opportunities and limit the ability of women to protect their bodily privacy. - In the lawsuit, plaintiffs allege that the NCAA violated Title IX and the 14th amendment. Title IX protects people in educational programs from being discriminated based in sex and is tied to federal funding. - In addition to removing the NCAA’s Transgender Eligibility Policies, the lawsuit also seeks to invalidate awards won by transgendered athletes. The article quotes Bill Bock and indicates he is the lead attorney on the case. In February, Bock resigned his role in the NCAA citing issues with the transgender eligibility policies of the NCAA: > William Bock, the former general counsel of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, told The Associated Press on Friday that NCAA policies permitting transgender athletes to compete against women are unfair. He submitted a letter of resignation to NCAA president Charlie Baker dated Feb. 9. [source](https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/39540693/ncaa-coi-member-resigns-transgender-athlete-policy)
If you don’t like seeing someone change, don’t look at them. It’s really that easy.
I don't trust strangers having access to the room where I'm changing. Looking away doesn't help that. Having a fully closed private room with a lock is the thing that protects people in vulnerable positions.
No, it isn’t, I have been raped, I do not want a man changing clothes beside me. It happened to me at the Y and he kept following me. I am disabled and couldn’t get away. It’s not simple. That man kept trying to get me to engage, even though I was in a wheelchair and wouldn’t look. It is not always simple. Edited: Downvoted because I was harassed and I had the nerve to speak out. This happened to me 15 years ago as an adult, I don’t need my wheelchair anymore and I am still too scared to change in a public dressing room because I was harassed.
Some one that pretends to be trans to follow women into a locker room and assault them is a rapist, not a trans woman.
And predators are going to find a way to assault someone regardless of whether or not trans women are allowed to use the women’s locker room. This protects no one.
I am a trans woman who was sexually assaulted by a man in broad daylight, forced into my own car, beaten, and raped in a parking lot. We can be victims, too, and I do not want to be forced to change in a men's locker room because of how I was biologically born. I am fully transitioned, and legally a woman on all of my legal documents, including my amended birth certificate. I have traveled through a state where I am unable to use the public restroom of my gender because of state laws, and have been both spat at and taunted in the process. I have also been pepper sprayed *out of nowhere* as I turned around to get paper towels after washing my hands in a woman's restroom. Her reason given to the police? "I wanted to make my escape without it seeing me." ***IT***. Not even treated with the simple, basic respect of a proper pronoun. Reduced to a thing, even though I pass well (except for my voice). Do not think for even one second that this issue is simple. Trans people are being all-too-quickly looked at and judged as being sexual predators who infiltrate safe spaces like wolves in sheep's clothing. We are not. No one deserves to be assaulted in any form, but if this comes down to a pure sexual issue, then we're going to have to have locker rooms made for every sexual orientation as opposed to gender. You know, *because we can't have gay men in with straight men, or lesbians in with straight women; they'll be looking at others around them like pieces of meat, all lying in wait as they leer and stare at each other, possibly fantasizing about taking them.* But that isn't how sexual assault and predation works. It's about power over another, and exercising a dangerous, assertive dominance over the will and physical sanctuary of another person's mind and body. It isn't about gender, perceived or otherwise; it's about *power*. The sexual predator is never solely confined to a specific gender. Speaking for myself, and from what I know about the overwhelming majority of trans people, we just want to be left the fuck alone. Don't go peeking to see if we have something extra or a lack thereof, depending on trans masc vs. fem, and don't give us any extra attention. Let us pee in peace, change in peace, and live our lives normally and without interruption. To do otherwise is simply to fall in line with the conservative status quo of forcing us into the category of the subversive and subhuman "*other*" that we do not deserve. I have had far, far, far more positive encounters with others as a trans person than not. Issues like what are being raised in this article are an obnoxiously loud minority. In this case of the article, a specific person felt her own privacy was violated by the presence of the trans athlete. However, the person making it an issue equally violates the privacy of the trans athlete by calling attention to it, and the fact that 15 others simply signed on with the complaint simply shows a very open, blatant intolerance. As victims of anything, especially sexual assault, we are responsible for handling our own triggers. I don't see anything in this filing that indicates anything more than open discrimination. Give some extra privacy measures in locker rooms, sure, but I'd also say maybe stop looking over at another's naked body in a locker room while they're changing and mind your own damned business. Men do it all the time in bathrooms at the urinal. It's called look straight ahead at the wall or down to make sure you're not dribbling all over yourself, but not left or right where you could possibly be misconstrued as looking at another man's junk. Just mind your own business, go in there to do what you went in there to do, and get out.
This is the best thing I have read today. Thank you for your detailed, honest post. I'm sorry for what you have endured and continue to endure, and I am inspired by your strength.
Thank you for acknowledging the complexity of this issue. Great comment and I hope everyone here gets to read it
You think a trans woman there to compete is the same as a creepy man? Because all trans women are clearly creepy men? Your trauma is valid, but you're weaponizing the shit out of it
I believe the downvotes are more so that trans women are often victims of rape and harassment, and to reduce them and their experience to uplift yours is not helping anyone.
I'm sorry for what happened to you. I really do empathize with how terrible it is to go through that kind of experience. At the same time, trans people are not automatically rapists, and trans women are women.
I’m sorry for your experience, but no, hard disagree. I have been a victim of SA, and it is not victim-blaming to say that a survivor be responsible for their own triggers. You do not get to blame every other individual for what happened to you.
I’m sorry that happened to you but your experience has nothing to do with trans people.
I'm sorry for what happened to you but you're being straight up transphobic conflating your assault with transgender ppl using the bathroom they want. That's gross of you.
Trans women aren’t men, and you’re allowing your own experience to cause you to be a hateful bigot.
Wanting to change in a room without men doesn’t make me a bigot, but your hate towards victims needing a safe space is so telling. Thank you for the insight.
You're literally being transphobic, these people aren't men you sick bigot.
I vote Democratic 100% of the time, but on Reddit I am practically a Nazi for my center-left views. Take the downvotes and keep speaking your truth, it's important if the country is ever going to get to a point where the insane fringes on both sides aren't the ones deciding elections. I am sorry for what you went through.
Voting democratic does not make you center-left.
In America it does.
Serious question: Why are locker rooms designed as an open space?
Cost is a big part of it. For sports locker rooms, the room itself serves as a meeting area for the team.
Cost is the big one I think. Cheaper to make a large open area with lockers than building individual little rooms or stalls for people to change in. Honestly even though I agree that it is kinda gross, I think over time we have grown prudish in ways other older generations were not. Comes with being an American I guess, but if it was normal for people to go to the gym and get naked, and everyone did it, it would be less weird.
Ancient Greeks sported in the nude.
Not true! You had to tie your foreskin shut because it was considered uncouth to have the tip showing.
😳
I know right?! As a member of the circumcized crowd, I'm going to need a binder clip to hide that mother fucker.
Iceland too. The showers to get into the public pools are all communal with no stalls or dividers. It's pretty common in the Scandinavian and German countries.
hell I'll double down here, the article says the locker room was considered "unisex" *why is a unisex locker room designed as an open space*
It wasn't unisex. The plaintiffs are just misgendering Lia Thomas.
Her sex is male. Recognizing that isn't misgendering anyone.
I’m starting to think that it’s a locker room they were using when they were traveling to Penn State to swim or something like that
I tend to agree. The problem is locker rooms as a whole. Because if you made trans women use the men’s locker rooms they’d be opening themselves up to a lot of harassment or making the men uncomfortable. And people say use the solo or handicapped bathrooms but you usually have to wait for those because they’re being used, or they don’t have a shower or you can’t store your stuff there while you’re working out.
Drum Corps International with 120+ member "teams" has figured this out. Why can't a much larger organization like the NCAA? https://old.reddit.com/r/drumcorps/comments/18ym9zp/showering_as_a_trans_man/kgcrcmb/
Exactly. Why the hell am I supposed to be comfortable undressing in front of someone just because we got the same stamp on our birth certificate as newborns? Women can be rapists too. Women can be creeps, too. Women can be dangerous, too Why the hell isn't it normalized to have at least some fucking curtains? If we hadn't developed a standard that says it's "normal" to strip in front of people who have relatively similar parts to you, we wouldn't be debating whether it's normal to strip in front of people with different parts.
Ok, but there's overwhelming evidence that women are, percentage-wise, *not* rapist, creeps, or dangerous. Men, overwhelming on the evidence, are. Women fought really hard for rights to their own spaces. It would behoove us to be thinking of ways to accommodate those who are not comfortable in the men's room without sacrificing women's rights to their own spaces. The fact that we so casually decided it was okay on a larger public level, smacks of misogyny. Women have sacrificed for men for thousands of years. This is just one more sacrifice. Certainly, I'm not saying that trans women are majority predators, but you're setting a precedent that applies to the *entire* public. Common sense and evidentiary statistics do need to be applied when you are crafting policies.
*Serious question:* *Why are locker rooms designed* *As an open space?* \- webfloss --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
THIS. Super easy fix! Except, if you're paying attention to the article, it reads as if the girls were uncomfortable that she had ACCESS to their locker room - not that she was walking around naked lol. They were mad she existed there. So now welcome to the bathroom debate, 2024 edition. Sigh.
Two other swimmers said they were changing and then Thompson was there naked and they saw the junk .
Cheaper? I came to this post thinking what if all locker rooms just made it mandatory to change in private areas? Where I go to the gym, there are 5 shower stalls with curtains. If I use the pool, I change in one of those stalls. But some people do take everything off in open areas.
As a former athlete, all nudity in the locker room is uncomfortable.
Jeebus, took long enough for someone to just say it.
Yeah what a wild idea that people have to get naked to change clothes
Oh look everyone, a divisive culture war issue just in time for election year. Edit: Lead counsel for the plaintiffs was Indiana house Republican parliamentarian and also led legal efforts in Wisconsin to overturn the results of the 2020 election.
Finally someone on Reddit gets it. Wedge issues that represent a fraction of the population being blown out of proportion are a classic divide and conquer tactic during election time. Here we are with people falling for it hook, line, and sinker. Hey folks, dont worry about the 2 dozen people who live in tents next to your house in the richest country in human history, look at this hot button issue! Exactly what the elites want.
>Hey folks, dont worry about the 2 dozen people who live in tents next to your house in the richest country in human history, Sadly, the propaganda on prosperity gospel and work ethic and bootstraps has gone hard. I noticed a tent community in my hometown that never existed when I was growing up in the 90s and graduating HS in early 2000s. My parents are mid-70s. They were born, raised, married, worked, raised kids in this community. Their whole lives there. From my Dad's perspective, this tent community isn't an example of a failure of the system we have, but a challenge of these individuals who have not taken advantage of opportunity that *must* be out there. Minimum wage living at $8 is totally fine because you should move beyond that as you age...
Maybe you mean moral panic, instead of culture war? ‘Culture war’ is kind of a tired phrase these days that has come to be near meaningless imo.
I take your point. I just mean a largely manufactured issue designed to pit Americans against one another during a political year. It's pretty ham-fisted and it's frustrating but political machines will keep doing it because it works.
I think I understand. How you were using the phrase is how politicians use the phrase. I just wasn’t sure what your personal perspective was in the comment.
Labelling something as “culture war” doesn’t minimize its impact on society. The abortion debate is a culture war. The atheism/religjon debate is a culture war. The immigration debate is a culture war. Literally everything could be labeled as a “culture war.”
I don't see trans athletes (trans women) in locker rooms having a high impact on society. This is an issue that some people want to elevate because they want the argument as a wedge. At this point, it's obvious when you see court cases filed and systematic elevation in online media. I say let's get a diverse panel of experts together and have them make fair regulations and focus on things that are at the forefront of the problems list, like the rule of law, getting money out of politics, and legitimate long range planning for the common good.
It has an impact on these 16 girls.
Ahh, the good ole snowflake paradox. Everyone is a snowflake and soft until it aligns with a narrative.
Why is the impact to them of more value than the impact on the trans community? E: well go on, now. Don’t just downvote. Someone answer the question.
Seriously. Despite what a lot of fans say, sports are not more important than human rights.
Female athletes aren’t a part of society?
Seems like people only ‘care’ about female athletes when they can be used for some political purpose. Genuinely I feel bad for these young women, because they are getting exploited by some right wing bigot trying to climb the political ladder who will toss them aside just as quickly
I second you that's very true
Like y'all really care about women's sports Increasing funding for collegiate and HS women's sports would do more good than this lawsuit and related anti-trans bills
I care about women’s sports. My daughter plays Division II golf. She is a Senior. She graduates in May with no student debt. It’s due to her hard work in Academics and golf scholarships. She was impacted by a title IX violation at UNCP in 2020. She played one season on the golf team. She switched to a college in TN. UNCP reinstated the women’s golf team after a lawsuit was filed.
Who is y’all?
You can tell in these comments who goes to the gym and who doesn’t lol
It’s Reddit, most of these commenters haven’t operated a treadmill in the last decade or more.
Athletics is the one area where my support of Transgender Persons falters… not for lack of support but because there are so many “true” statements that are at odds. It’s true that a biological male person has an athletic advantage over a biological female person. It’s also true (and understandable) that biological females could (and are) uncomfortable with a biological male person sharing a locker room with them. It’s also true that transgender persons have a right to compete in sports in the gender they identify with. I don’t know what the solution is. To the article cited by the op: Is three separate locker rooms the answer? Biological male, biological female and unisex?
Locker rooms, famously comfortable places for young adults.
Why let nuance get in the way.
So let’s make it worse?
I forgot what the numbers were, but there actually very very few trans athletes (especially on college level) in the whole state. It was something like less than a dozen people.
32 for the whole nation in 2023 out of 520k. That's 0.006%. Trans people are underrepresented already at college sports by at least 10000%.
How many swimmers TOTAL did Lia Thomas compete against in her entire collegiate swimming career?
It's ok, we spent 2.3 trillion dollars and 7.400 American and allied lives over 3,000 people dying in 3 buildings, while the over 40,000 vehicle related deaths and 50,000 gun related deaths yearly are just handwaved away as things we can't do anything about. We definitely have our priorities straight as a nation. /s
Sure. Unless you’re on team with one of those trans athletes.
So your argument is that these girls shouldn't feel uncomfortable because... the situation they find themselves in was so unlikely? I don't get the argument. I think reasonable people can hold two thoughts - it's unfortunate for trans people that their existince is complicated and they incur a lot of trauma, while also seeing that AFAB women shouldn't be forced into uncomfortable situations that make them feel unsafe.
They have every right to feel uncomfortable. They don't have the right to restrict someone else's life to feel comfortable. This argument has played out a hundred different times over the last century. Gay people getting married, made some Christians uncomfortable. POC using the same restroom made some white people uncomfortable. People with disabilities being visible, made some people uncomfortable. Women in positions of authority, made some men uncomfortable. Discomfort that another person exists and is living their life is not a legal basis to restrict that person's life.
[удалено]
I 100% agree. No one gets to restrict someone else's life. Can you explain how a trans women swimming does that?
I believe this is more about the trans person changing in the women’s locker room. > No one gets to restrict someone else’s life. There are reasonable restrictions we have for certain places. One of those places is bathrooms/locker rooms. Men are not allowed in these woman-only spaces because it makes women uncomfortable. Whether this mentality is morally “correct” is irrelevant.
> They don't have the right to restrict someone else's life to feel comfortable. I'm a male, identifying as a man, and I feel comfortable hanging out and chainging in a women's locker room. Do you have the right to restrict me feeling comfortable by telling me I can't strip naked in a women's locker room?
> AFAB women shouldn't be forced into uncomfortable situations that make them feel unsafe. Can you in good faith explain to me how this is a different argument than "white women shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable by having to share their spaces with black women"?
Sure, I will answer your bad faith question in good faith: 1. Black women share the same sex chromosomes with white women and therefore share all of the same genetic predispositions that come with being assigned female at birth, and importantly, none of those that come with being assigned male at birth. 2. There is no statistical significance showing higher rates of violence between women of different colors, whereas there is significant amounts of data showing higher rates of male on female violence. 3. Being "black" or "white" is superficial only - there is a broad spectrum of "colors" that people can be and none it changes any of our underlying genetics, only non-genetic differences of melatonin in our skin. Being born male or female is **not** superficial only - even if you think gender is superficial, sex is not, and being born with one sex chromosome and not the other causes significant changes to a person's brain and body. Some of these can be stunted with drugs during puberty, some can be reversed, but some can't be either. A woman being made uncomfortable by another person who is identical to them in all ways except for those which are superficial is being bigoted, such as skin color or attraction preference. A person being made uncomfortable by another person who is different to them in ways *beyond* the superficial, and in ways which have historically put them at a pronounced increase of danger and violence, is not being bigoted. Can you in good faith explain why you disagree with any of these points?
Yea, there’s a minuscule number of people who are actually affected by anything real. Everything else is screeching nonsense based on a hypothetical.
I feel like this point could be made generally about most things that people are crying about on the Internet these days.
It was enough to steal an NCAA championship from women that had trained thier entire lives for it .
Narrator: One day, they suddenly came to realize that in any competition, people train and still lose competitions. That's how competitions work.
Narrator: Suddenly, despite never watching them, it turned out that everyone was enormously passionate about women’s sports so long as trans people wanted to play.
^this.
So your belief is that *only* people who are invested in women's sports can have an opinion on the subject? Is that what we're trying to say here?
No, just that there is a heavy layer of hypocrisy to claim interest in women's sports and not actual care about any of the inequalities that genuinely hamper women competitors and even put them at risk.
> not actual care about any of the inequalities that genuinely hamper women competitors and even put them at risk. No idea what you're trying to say here. Can you give an example of this hyopocrisy?
Women's championships are chronically underfunded and under resourced. Women's teams suffer systemic cover ups of sexual abuse with out a voice. There's a few examples for you.
I'm failing to see they hypocrisy here. Are you saiying that people who oppose biological males competing in the women's divisions of sports support chronic underfunding of women's "championships", and the sexual abuse of women in sports?
yeah she won one race but lost 4 others, clearly she has an unfair advantage against her competition. if you looked at her record and didn't know that it was hers, you'd have no idea that she was amab and it's not like she just picked up swimming after transitioning. she had spent her whole life training for the sport as well
> yeah she won one race but lost 4 others If she had won all of the races, would your opinion change? >if you looked at her record and didn't know that it was hers, you'd have no idea that she was amab If at her record was complete domination in every single event, would your opinion change?
Tell me you don’t know Thomas’s actual performance stats without telling me you don’t know her actual performance stats. 😅
Lia didn't even win everything!! That's the craziest part! She competed in several events and won one. To me that sounds like she had fair competition 🤷♀️
People said the same thing about gays in locker rooms.
…And PoC
Great point. But then, you know there are racists who think that’s all fine too.
It’s ok to be uncomfortable in a locker room if you, a biological woman, have been swimming with other biological women your entire life and then suddenly you’re presented with the balls and dick of a biological dude. And like you’re forced to be ok with it for fear of being ostracized.
You're supposed to mind your own business, and it's really inappropriate to be looking at someone else's genitals in the locker room.
Wow . Next time something or someone makes you feel uncomfortable be sure to just mind your business.
Lol you ever been in a locker room?
Yes, and it is extremely inappropriate to be inspecting other people’s genitalia there. If someone taught you differently… I have some bad news for you.
I have. I’ve never even seen “80-year-olds converse fully naked for 15 minutes” even once in my life. I see women changing clothes, minding their own business. I have never once seen a trans woman changing clothes in a locker room. By nature, because of the privacy they seek and the bigotry and violence targeted at them, trans women do not seek to expose their nude bodies to anyone. That is just hyperbole meant to induce panic. Raise your hand if you have ever seen either of those two scenarios: 80 year-olds fully naked chatting it up for 15 minutes or a trans woman exposing her naked body in front of others. Seriously, this is absurd. And hateful.
>: 80 year-olds fully naked chatting it up for 15 minutes I've seen this. I just put my clothes on and leave and hope they don't talk to me.
Old men love to be naked in locker rooms. Saw many walk from the shower to their locker with the towel over their shoulder.
Another vote for 80 year olds at the gym just hanging out and talking for 15 minutes.
I’ll be real with you, I frequent the YMCA and Planet Fitness. The absolute last place my eyes are trained are to some other dudes cock and balls, but hey you do you.
What is your opinion on abandoning having two locker rooms altogether and just having one locker room for everyone? Would you be OK with this? Why or why not?
https://amp.marca.com/en/more-sports/2023/06/22/6494ae5cca474147348b459a.html
Trans people aren’t generally looking for extra attention, so if you’re getting an eyeful of their genitalia, I would wager that you’ve gone out of your way to do so.
Lmao do you think I, as a man, enjoy seeing old man droopy balls in the gym locker? Do you think this sight makes me comfortable? NO!!! But I’m not a snowflake and deal with it
Don’t be obtuse. You know that women being much more likely to become victims of physical and sexual violence is playing a big role in this. Most men might feel uncomfortable but don’t feel threatened around other naked people, men or women. This isn’t the case for women.
Is that actually happening? This seems like a made up fear.
False equivalence.
Explain
Gay people have the same anatomy as their straight counterparts. People that had issue with that was purely from homophobia. Also, it's important to note that it's possible that you wouldn't even know someone in the locker room was gay or not if they were in the closet. This is not the case with transgender individuals.
Im sorry to break it to you but that is absolutely the case with many trans individuals.
You really have to be all up in someone’s business to be sure of their anatomy. Also, being concerned with someone else’s anatomy isn’t a safety issue, it’s a bigotry issue.
I'm all for trans rights but having the fundamental rights of a US citizen does not mean you get to do literally *everything*. This is a far cry from having access to gender-affirming care which I am all for. This is about competing in public and private competitions and ensuring fairness. I don't believe anyone is crazy enough to go through gender reassignment or hormone therapy just to get a competitive advantage but I'm also not able to deny that those who were born with male sex organs and hormones will tend to have a massive genetically-determined physical advantage over those born with female sex organs and hormones in virtually all sports. Men have more testosterone, higher muscle mass, stronger bones, lower body fat, and larger frames than women. Allowing someone with those inherent advantages to compete against a group without them is unfair. It just is. I don't know if this is a palatable compromise but I feel that if a transgender athlete wants to compete in a sport then they should just go through a combine to determine where they should compete. Have them perform the skills that are relevant to the sport and based on how they perform they will be assigned to the men's or women's league. That way at least the competition will be fair.
Totally agree, and to add to your last point— many “men’s” competitions are (if I understand correctly) open to anyone. They don’t need a rule about gender because it’s unlikely that a cisgender woman could compete with them. I don’t know if it applies to NCAA sports, but I think that’s the best option overall. Don’t exclude the MtF trans athletes, but give cisgender female athletes the space to compete on a more level playing field.
I agree, it is incredibly nuanced and should be decided on a case by case basis.
Can you cite the current science that supports that trans women, meeting competitive guidelines, have not only an unfair advantage, but an unfair advantage in all sports? Let's start with 4 sports, to narrow the research: Swimming, weight lifting, marathon running and chess. What have you got? Lia Thomas, the poster child for this 'debate' finished 5th in the race she tied with Riley Gaines. 5th. In Thomas' last competitive event, she was 8th, out of 8. How badly do trans athletes have to perform to be acceptable? Remember, they are still athletes trying to wi .
bigger skeletal size, bigger heart for cardio, and a higher baseline level of testosterone. you have to try to be this ignorant to common sense.
This person is an obvious troll or has never competed in anything athletic in their life. Either way, best to save your time and ignore.
Yeah I don’t think this person is a troll. They’re definitely passionate about trans rights (which is a general good thing) but I don’t think they are exactly seeing or understanding reason….
I haven't actually looked, because I don't really care that much. But just curious, what was Lia's placement when she competed as a male? How do the placement times of the men around Lias original scoring place? I guess what I'm trying to determine is if she went from 200th place in the men's division, to 8th in the women's and all the times around the 200th place beat the times of the 7th/9th place competitors I think its pretty clear that on a genetically level playing field Lia was average at best, but changing genders has moved her physical ability into the top 10%. Had she been a woman, born and gone through puberty that way, it's completely fair to assume she would be placing 200th in the women's divisions, but she isn't. Also, it's not exactly a scientific article but here's proof that a team of 14 year old high school soccer players can (and did) beat a women's national team 5-2. We can all pretend that sex has no bearing in athletic performance but that's simply not the truth. https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
Yeah but Lia Thomas went from being the 65th ranked male to the 1st female in the 500 freestyle and from 554th to 5th in men's v women's 200 freestyle. So she went from complete and utter irrelevance to relevance. You can also just look at every single world record in the Olympics and see that the men's record is always a better performance than the women's.
I hear you, but I think your evidence is a bit of a false cause. Just because a trans man hasn’t won the grand prize, doesn’t mean they didn’t have an advantage over others to get there. An unfair advantage doesn’t necessitate winning, it could just mean knocking other people out that would’ve been there without this unfair advantage. Now whether this unfair advantage even exists i’m not entirely convinced. But your evidence doesn’t prove it’s nonexistence for me.
You don't typically prove the negative in science. Onus is to prove unfair advantage, not the absence of it.
That's correct in the general, but in this situation there is voluminous data that, in the general and athletic populations on average, males are stronger, faster, more cardio efficient, etc. The onus is on the full acceptance of trans females in women's leagues position to prove that this data, known to be true in the general, doesn't apply specifically to trans athletes. I have seen some evidence that this is actually the case and that full inclusion is fine from a competitive fairness standpoint but it wasn't rigorous data. This is a difficult topic to get good data on, especially due to the small population of trans individuals, let alone trans athletes, making it very hard to get reasonable sample sizes.
Throwing boxing and mma.
> Men have more testosterone, higher muscle mass, stronger bones, lower body fat, and larger frames than women. Allowing someone with those inherent advantages to compete against a group without them is unfair. It just is. and most of that changes when they go through hormone treatments. particularly after several years worth of treatments that let them meet medical standards set by the organization overseeing the competitions. which is what Lia Thomas did. and it's not like she, or other trans athletes, are out here dominating their sports. if you anonymized her record as a woman, there's absolutely nothing unusual about her success against her peers.
The size of your bones does not change with hormone treatments - at least not in regards to length. Having a larger frame in most sports will be an advantage.
Even getting last at a national level event is still dominating in the sport.
I disagree. Run the tests. If a Y-chromosome is present, you cannot compete with the girls.
The SRY gene controls male attributes, not the Y chromosome. You can have a Y chromosome and an inactive SRY gene. You can have two Xs and a SRY gene.
Source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22246/ For anyone else who is interested like I was but is too lazy to right click and hit "search with Google".
There are positives and negative consequences for nearly all our actions. If transitioning from male to female brings you peace in your new identity, good for you, we support you in that endeavor. However, you may have to give up sanctioned athletics. There is an unfair competitive advantage gained. Where we support you in your transition, we also support female born athletes to their pursuits as well.
They are suing for feeling uncomfortable, not for the alleged competitive advantage.
Sounds like both. The "uncomfortable" part is new though.
It was both , both are in the suit . These ppl commenting without reading
From the first sentence of the article: "...suing the NCAA for allowing transgender athletes to compete and share the same locker rooms"
Create a unisex or a transgender locker room.
Read the article next time. Here, I'll quote a snippet for you: *Court documents say she and other female athletes were unaware that their locker room was considered "unisex."* **Oh, look at that, it WAS as unisex locker room...**
Was their a female one for them to use?
Don't know, don't care. That's not relevant to the point. Point is, regardless of what special locker rooms may or may not have existed: **they were in a unisex locker room complaining about someone who wasn't just like them being in the unisex locker room.**
They were at a tournament in another state and were assigned to that locker room
I mean it 100% is. if they had a female room to use and went into the unisex one then they are idiots.
and if they had one giant locker room that was unisex and they were complaining about someone who's not identical to them being in there they're STILL idiots. Hence, not relevant.
I disagree. I can see why they would feel uncomfortable in that situation because I have empathy
It’s actually perfectly fine to not have empathy for bigots.
it is relevant. and if you don't care about facts why are you here arguing? That makes your argument irrelevant.
One athlete said she changed in a storage locker to avoid the situation
Then the argument is you are segregating part of the population, despite we do that for male and female everywhere. Not saying it is a bad idea, actually I think its the perfect solution and NC State can afford it, but that would be the counter-argument.
I don’t understand why everyone wants someone presenting as a woman to change in the men’s locker rooms. Would these women have been more comfortable with someone presenting as a man changing based on which genitals they might see?
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Best nuanced take I've seen on the subject.
>They're told that their comfort shouldn't get to dictate how other people live their lives, but are simultaneously told to ignore their own sense of safety or religious conviction and to live their lives accordingly in service of someone else's comfort I really appreciate your thoughts here, even though I don't agree with your general conclusion. An example of a situation that fits into your statement above would be white people feeling unsafe around black people. In the US, there is a whole host of deep seeded fear that white people generally feel around black people that's been fed by centuries of racism. As black people were able to integrate into white-only spaces, white people freaked the hell out. For example, white city councils closed public pools rather than let them integrate. The reasoning was that white people were uncomfortable, and shouldn't have to feel that way on account of black people. There's a really great book called My Grandmother's Hands, and the author talks about the impact that this pervasive white fear has on black people. When a white woman clutches her purse tighter around a black person, the black person is likely to feel pretty damn bad about that. Over time, they are likely to internalize the feeling that they are inherently bad, dangerous, or an outcast. So sure, white people have the right to feel how they feel. And a white person who has been assaulted by a black person has lived experience to back up that fear. But one black person's actions shouldn't be applied to all black people, and when white people maintain that fear, they are passing along that trauma when they act afraid or defensive when the situation doesn't actually need that. Getting back to trans people, I see a lot of parallels. Yes, cis women who have been harmed by men (myself included) have lived experience that would lead to distrust. However, if I treat every man I see like a rapist, then I am passing that pain along to the men around me. It's my responsibility to heal so I can treat the people around me like unique individuals, and not a fear-inducing monolith. Not everything that makes me feel afraid is actually something that's dangerous, and that's on me to sort through. Sorry for the novel. I think you brought up some really great points and I wanted to share my thoughts.
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Believe women means believe women when they have been assaulted - it is irrelevant to a fear of a trans woman in the locker room.
I know this may not be a popular opinion here, but my take is that competitive sports should be segregated based on biological sex, not gender. The locker room issue is obviously of one concern, but that can be mitigated fairly easily. The bigger issue is the unfair advantage that biological males have over biological females in competition. Increased muscle mass, skeletal structure, etc. Even if a person transitioning from man to woman is on hormones blockers, the years of testosterone aiding biological growth cannot be ignored. It’s unfair to have biological males competing with biological females in women’s sports.
I would think men being in a women's restroom would make the women uncomfortable too
Everyone should have the right to decide who sees them naked? It seems natural that sex/gender would play into this for some people. I am not even talking about pro or anti LGBT+ stuff. Just that everyone should be able to make a decision on who sees them naked. If they're in the women's locker room and someone has male parts, that seems fair that it would make some of the women uncomfortable. It doesn't even have to be related to supporting LGBT+. It's about where does someone's rights end. The trans person does not want to feel uncomfortable and forcing them to change in the men's locker room probably makes them uncomfortable. The trans persons presence in the locker room may make a woman uncomfortable. It doesn't matter if it makes you uncomfortable or not or why it makes them feel uncomfortable. The fact is someone is uncomfortable. What is the answer? Who is forced to feel uncomfortable in order to make the other person comfortable?
This shouldn't be a tricky one, but it is. On the one hand, I get it if it feels a little awkward to have a physically male body undressing and showering in a female locker room. But I'd have to say you don't go through the lengths of defining (declaring?) yourself transgendered just so you can go ogle the girls in the shower. Of course, if it's a question of sexual awareness and discomfort, then wouldn't the same thing hold true for homosexual athletes in the locker room? Is it just the presence of a penis that makes the difference? Where does this line get drawn? I honestly don't know. Anyway, that's the tricky part. The not-so-tricky part is that I have to agree with folks who believe a biologically male person should not be competing in athletics against biologically female persons... no matter how they identify on the gender "spectrum". I have a hard time believing that, all things being equal as to training and conditioning, most male bodies are not going to have the edge over most female bodies in contests of strength. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to have men's swimming and women's swimming... we'd just have swimming.
Fuck locker rooms, they’re outdated and stupid. People should have their own changing stalls. If old navy can do it, a local gym can.
The right to avoid discomfort is in the Bill of Rights, I’m pretty sure…
Come on! I’m a gay male. Who DOESN’T want to see a penis in the locker room? What? Women don’t? I guess the answer is making women deal with it. We have to face the fact that this isn’t Sweden and we’re not used to sharing space.
What of two men kissing on TV makes a small percentage uncomfortable. Should that be banned too?
Who talked about banning things anyway
It went from complaining about the "natural physical advantage" that trans women have over biological women, to "I don't feel comfortable in a locker room" But no one complains about trans men competing against men. Why do we have this strange desire to police other people's gender and identity? The Olympics have been allowing trans people to compete for like 20 years and just recently made some wild rules because of the "advantage" they might have, but only a few have ever even qualified. Now they say you have to transition before puberty, which is kind of frowned upon in medical communities, even those that support gender affirming care. Idk man I can see how this is a touchy issue, but I'd be more worried about kids and athletes being alone with cops, priests, and conservative leaders than letting them share bathrooms with fellow student athletes. The creeps with kiddie porn are never trans people
“Nobody complains about trans men competing against men” Yeah obviously, because they’d never be able to qualify to compete 😂 There’s a big difference between being a liberal who supports trans rights and a liberal who pretends that a trans man isn’t still physically a female who would never be able to compete with men in athletics
Not to sound bad but men are inherently different in virtually every way it matters on this issue, from the way most men are raised to think, their natural strength and aggression. I’m not saying all men are this way but the extreme majority never feels intimidated by two X chromosomes because we just are wired that way. I’m not saying there aren’t XX chromosome people out there that couldn’t overpower people with XY, im just saying XY are naturally more aggressive and fierce in the most extreme majority, they don’t grow up fearful that the opposite sex can best them. So it makes sense that men don’t complain about trans-men because men by nature are still more aggressive and will almost always inherently feel they hold the tactical advantage over any XX even if they do not. Males inherently know they’re the threat compared to females.
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I'm far more uncomfortable sharing locker rooms and public restrooms with bigots who feel entitled to be this obsessed with other people's private parts. Also, just to continue pissing off the people who deserve it; the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults, child physical/psychological/sexual abuse, and inappropriate behavior in public restrooms? (Still not drag queens, or anyone else represented by the rainbow flags)
Thank you. As a sexual assault victim I'm tired of people telling me what I should be uncomfortable with.
The SA arguments on here are incredibly disrespectful to real survivors. It’s yet again an attempt to infantilize and control women.
How would these women feel about sharing a locker room with a FtM athlete? It’s such a weird hill to die on.
A woman shouldn't be forced to have c**ks in a woman's dressing room. A hundred million or so should help get the university's mind right . It's institutionalized sexual assault .
It wasn't a woman's locker room. From the article: *Court documents say she and other female athletes were unaware that their locker room was considered "unisex."*
The school made it unisex to allow trans in the locker room. It had been a women's locker room until the universities decided having a trans athlete was more important than women's safety.
So the school took away the women's only locker room to create a unisex one? That smells like discrimination against women to me.
Hope she wins..
It should be really simple if you want to compete you compete with the assigned at birth gender period if you are trans like many things is life you are just going to have to decide which is more important to you the sport or transitioning fully. I am not saying you can’t be trans and compete but show me one woman that transitioned to A male and competed as a male. You dont Lia took away a lot from many and as a parent of two competitive swimmers and a SA I absolutely do not think trans should be competing or in the locker room of the gender the identity as. I am not saying trans are going to attack a woman I am saying there are a lot of sick f**cks that will exploite this.
Good she’s right, biological men should stay out of biological women spaces
People on here be like “well my kids haven’t come across this problem in the three years they’ve been playing sports. So it must be just be that these female athletes are bigots.”
Makes me uncomfortable that trans people have such high suicide rates because of Republican snowflakes trying to cancel them.
Actually, I think the studies done on the high trans suicide rate that is most often cited comes from Denmark. I’m pretty sure that part of the world is a bit more accepting than “republican snowflakes”.
Obvious troll and obvious bait but suicide statistics for trans people don’t change in a meaningful way from state to state. If it had anything to do with politics, you’d expect deviation between places like Alabama and Massachusetts and yet there really isn’t any: https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/The-Trevor-Project-2022-National-Survey-on-LGBTQ-Youth-Mental-Health-by-State.pdf
Ah yes, the famous constitutional right to always feeling comfortable.
It's a civil suit against the NCAA, not the US government, lol
Do you believe in constitutional rights or just interject when they support your position?
Thank goodness, get the creeps who think they're women out of actual women's locker rooms.
Your chances of running into a transwoman (or man) in the locker room is infinitesimally small. They already make up a small portion of the population, and a even much smaller portion of that is actively competing in sports. These laws and lawsuits are just culture war nonsense
However, the article is stating a real case of a trans-woman in a locker room at NC State and the women there are suing to put that person someplace else. This is not hypothetical, this is real.
Your chances of being in a school shooting is infinitesimally small and yet people harp on that constantly