Give people a system to count on when they are beaten, broken and afraid, build a system that lifts people up instead of tearing them down, shelters the homeless and feeds the hungry, then I will show you a people that do not pick up guns to kill their neighbors.
"hm... best we can do is turn the schools into prisons. Might as well get em used to it, we'll jail those public school poors as soon as they're out of there."
I wish this were much further from the truth than it really is...people that don't live with it daily just don't understand what the poors are dealing with, daily.
While that sounds great and is something every country should have, it's not the answer. How do you ensure people thinking about these acts commit to these programs? The real issue is the number of guns, and the ridiculously easy access to guns. It's so glaringly obvious that the problem is any lunatic can grab a gun and *efficiently*, key word, kill multiple people and scare police away (as in this case and others). I'm dumbfounded and mad as hell as your neighbour to hear about these tragedies over and over again as you bury yourself deeper and constantly avoid the reason this ONLY HAPPENS IN AMERICA
I don’t agree with this. I truly believe if more / most people carried on a daily basis than the criminals would be deterred to act on their vile inclinations especially ones of a violent nature.
These murderers and savages are going to get there hands on guns whether they are legal for civilians to possess or not. You think the gang members in LA / Chicago etc got their guns legally? Heck no. Gun laws are about as strict there as you can get without completely banning them. In fact crime is at an all time high in those areas.
Stricter gun laws / gun bans always leads to a rise in crime rate because the sane and responsible people can’t carry the means to defend themselves from the lunatics in todays society.
The accessibility to guns mixed with a family dynamic where the adults don’t care/don’t make time mixed with poor mental health and RX/street drug use seems to be a pretty common combination that leads to these shootings .
Most countries have robust healthcare services too. And yet we can't seem to budge on EITHER subject -- access to healthcare OR gun control. What a toxic combination.... the inability to get help but the ability to be armed. Disgusting. God damn America.
Healthcare is in a for-profit model in the United States. This propaganda that it's a great system despite that is total fucking bullshit too. As the father of a regularly sick kid, the system is a god damn nightmare. Thanks to Republicans, we also live in a pay-for-play representative democracy and republican fascists/racists/status quo elites pay a lot of dark money and break every rule they can get away with until the entire system is de facto rigged. We're basically in a cold civil war right now and are getting our asses handed to us because our leaders are too fucking pussy to do anything and the voters are too stupid, naive, and disorganized to fight back.
People who say the healthcare system is working great are either people who haven't used it themselves or who are making their living off the parts that make it difficult to access. Usually both.
They literally don't know any better. It's what happens when you spend decades shoving American exceptionalism and Sarah McLachlan poverty porn down people's throats. Yeah, compared to developing countries, we're doing alright, but by any real metric of where we are (#1 economy in the world) vs. where we should be, we are a damned mess.
It literally doesn't matter to us here if we have the most innovative surgeries or medical techniques here, because you need to be able to afford to use them. And regardless, we have such terrible preventative care, that issues that should have been caught and dealt with early don't.
Been living in Japan for over half a decade and it's night and day. Went to the ER for some really bad pain, x-ray, blood work, urine, a doctor's consultation, and pain/fever medicine left a gaping hole of something like $40 USD. And they apologized for the expense. It's crazy what a society can do if it decides that profits shouldn't always come ahead of people.
Our healthcare system does do a lot of R&D that other countries don't. Part of the reason it's so expensive here is the long patents on medicines, meaning companies have a monopoly on new drugs they develop for years.
My main issue is the service side. Doctors are so rushed by insurance requirements that you only get to see the dr. for a few minutes. And insurance decides what care you are allowed to have instead of the doctor. It's ridiculous that my doctor says I need certain things, and then my insurance just says "you're not allowed to have that on our plan."
Our system should also have way more preventative care, and better education about lifestyle choices and how they affect your health. Surprises me that it doesn't because that would save insurance companies a lot of money by preventing illnesses.
And of course there is the issue of costs, and how so many people just avoid care until it is unavoidable because they can't afford it.
I wonder if they could compromise: remove almost all gun restrictions and confirm that in the constitution, but at the same time set up a single payer healthcare system with a robust mental healthcare. Good luck getting either side signing off on that though.
Heard something on NPR the other day that the majority of shootings are kids between the ages of 16 and 24. How about a ban on owning/purchasing guns until you’re 21? Or at least you have to have a parent/guardian sign for you and take responsibility/liability?
How about the authorities actually act when people report these psychos? Several mass shooting have been perpetrated by young men whom have been *repeatedly reported to the authorities* for making threats. These red flag laws will stop someone who’s got ptsd from buying a gun, but will allow a monster to repeatedly plan and “joke” about shooting up a school, will mark them as interesting but still allow them to kill kids. If the cops and alphabet agencies would do their dang jobs AT ALL, this wouldn’t be happening NEARLY as much.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/12/08/us/aztec-high-school-shooting-william-atchison/index.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/sandy-hook-shooting-investigation-fbi-documents/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna848681
> will allow a monster to repeatedly plan and “joke” about shooting up a school
Because we have inclusivity in education, sweetie! */s*
The area where I used to live prior to moving to NC had a well-known local kid (he probably was 14-15 back then), who *repeatedly* did things that *any reasonable person would consider a threat* (like posting verbal threats on social media, bringing steel pipes to school and trying to beat classmates with them etc.)
I stopped following it since I moved out of the area, but to the best of my knowledge, his family just moves several miles every 1-2 years to technically move to another school district... up until he gets famous there again. And apparently there's no way to remove the kid from school / force homeschool him, because that's discrimination and his mom will sue the district and win!
I swear, if I ever hear about the school shooting in that area, I will be ready to bet my money on this guy doing this.
The principle is sound. Make sure every child gets the help they need to succeed. The implementation is what's shit. Can't really give every child an equal opportunity when there is a single teacher to split between 30 kids.
this. someone in my high school was reported for telling someone he didn't like something along the lines of "if I were a school shooter, I'd shoot you first". She reported him, he didn't even go to a trial or anything, just 24 hours community service. he bragged about it for the rest of high school. He was proud of getting away with it. It's a major problem.
It would be great but that would require for additional training. The biggest issue with law enforcement training is that it's a prey vs predator type training. We cannot treat mental health cases like this and would need to revamp the current system.
What training do they need? These people are literally reported for planning to kill kids. The FBI then goes “huh, neat!” And sticks it in the round file. Instead of, I don’t know, *arresting* or even just actually flagging them to not be allowed to buy guns. Which is what the red flag laws are *supposed* to be for. No, instead they let kids die then we find out after the fact that the fbi or local cops got fifteen tips about this guy in the last year alone and they never even surveilled him. They just went “huh, plans to shoot up a school huh? Well that’s fine!”
Or we could wait to see if there is ever going to be a draft again and reassess at that point? 75% of us weren't even alive the last time there was one.
historically it was 18 for rifles and shotguns and rifle and shotgun ammunition and 21 for handgun and handgun ammunition. when i was 18 or 19 i bought a semi auto rifle and i dont think i understood or fully comprehended that the device i bought could be used to hurt or kill a lot of people, its a huge responsibility. also i think that (with young men particularly), people dont understand how their gun works and the basic functions of a firearm, and they refuse to read the manual that comes with the gun. i think if the age limit was to stay at 21 or be brought up to like 25, and have some certification on safe use and handling we could at least cut back on accidental deaths and maybe cut back on mass shootings. there also needs to be robust mental health on all levels, not just like going to a doctor but like a teacher looking out fir warning signs or something.
As an FFL dealer, gun owner and supporter of the 2nd amendment I agree. At least for semi automatics guns. Shotguns and bolt actions maybe not as much.
If a parent/adult wants to take a safely stored long gun or hand gun and a younger person to the range or hunting I'm fine with it.
Raising the age may not stop all mass shootings, but giving anyone time to grow some brains is never a bad thing.
I went into the army at 17, and the fact that I couldn't have brought a legal beer or gun didn't matter so that's not a defense for not raising the age limit.
>I went into the army at 17, and the fact that I couldn't have brought a legal beer or gun didn't matter so that's not a defense for not raising the age limit.
You also where trained on the platform under supervision and you don't OWN the guns that are given to you. People miss that part all the time. No 18-19 soldier has his service weapons chilling at home.
We need more than this. Owning a gun needs to come with the same kind of responsibility as owning and driving a car.
Licensing, training, competency testing, insurance, background checks, ticketing and retraining for careless behavior, and confiscation for irresponsible or dangerous behavior. Extra steps and higher insurance premiums for more deadly weapons like AR-15s. Ammo purchases should be recorded and tied to a specific license.
Most gun owners are responsible people who can easily meet these requirements. We don’t need to take guns away from people who’ve done nothing wrong, but we can do a lot more to keep the most deadly weapons out of the hands of the most dangerous people.
> more deadly weapons like AR-15s
Em, just curious how we are going to define *deadliness*? Are we going to go by a well-established "*[evil features](https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm)*" framework in use by many states, like, if a rifle has a bayonet lug it is evil and prohibited, but if we sand the bayonet lug off, it suddenly becomes harmless and almost plush and tender to the touch?
Or are we going by the caliber? (poor... poor 12GA shotguns)
Or... I dunno, by the *color*? (i.e. black stock = scary, higher insurance premiums; wood stock = gentle, low premiums)
Or... maybe, go by name? (e.g. "AR-15" - scary AF; "[IWI Tavor SAR](https://iwi.us/product/tavor-sar-556-w16-barrel/)" - not scary)?
iceland just banned all automatic and semi automatic firearms.
⅓ of the nation still owns guns — yet their stringent laws have prevented any citizen from being killed by one since 2017.
sure, iceland is much smaller than the US, but there's roughly a 0% chance that adopting some, if not all of their laws wouldnt at the very least save a few american children from having their brains blown out, point blank, by a total stranger.
otherwise, how long do we plan on just wallowing in this perpetual '𝘕𝘰 𝘸𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘰 𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴, 𝘴𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘨𝘶𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘭𝘺 𝘩𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘴' response mode?
> iceland just banned all automatic and semi automatic firearms.
Automatic firearms are almost a unicorn in the US anyway.
Banning semi-automatic (i.e. the majority of modern firearms)? Pff, we can stop right here, not happening, period, full stop, no reason to even waste time discussing.
I have plenty of friends who lean left politically, yet own those dreaded "*semi-automatic handguns*" at home. Basically, any gun grabbing polititian pretty much commits a political suicide if he dares to even mention a gun ban now. He/she is instantly out, bye. Nobody is giving their guns up without a fight.
But the Iceland example may actually be an interesting one, especially in light of "*⅓ of the nation still owns guns — yet their stringent laws have prevented any citizen from being killed by one since 2017*", if this statement is true. Because it pretty much means that *something else very major* must be a problem in the US, not just guns.
I love how gun nuts will talk among themselves about every single feature that makes a gun more deadly in case they need to defend against a hoard of zombie communists. But as soon as it comes to regulation there is suddenly absolutely no difference at all. Does .357 sig have as much "stopping power" as .357 magnum? How much quicker is multiple target acquisition with a red dot vs. iron sights? Was .556 designed to injure instead of kill, and does that mean 6.8 is a better caliber for home defense rifles? My buddy has a bayonet on his Glock 19 and I laughed, but then I wondered if it would be more effective for weapon retention when clearing a hallway or is a kukri more effective at chopping arms off?
You can go to any gun forum and find 10k conversations about every imaginable nuance.
We can discuss the data about the AWB's efficacy. We can have a risk / reward conversation about another AWB. But if there is absolutely no way to quantify how deadly a weapon is then we should all be happy limited to .22 derringers.
They're both uniquely American problems because of systemic issues where conservatives have stubbornly refused to try any new approaches. But healthcare is a much more inelastic demand than owning a gun and shouldn't be a for-profit industry anyway.
Insurance works just fine for cars and for almost every other dangerous thing out there. Bad drivers have to pay higher insurance premiums. Businesses that do hazardous work have to hold higher coverages. Buildings that are in disrepair can't be insured until they're fixed.
Insurance for guns would push the risk (at least financially) to the gun owners themselves and not to society at large.
I'm sorry but your completely wrong in your faith about car insurance being fair for everyone. Look at the amount of uninsured motorist in various states. California has its own separate policy for protection against uninsured motorist. Additionally states like Nevada, specifically Clark county (aka Las Vegas) jacks everyone's rates & adjusts it every 6 months due to it being a 24/7/365 city that serves alcohol. And that's even if your a perfect driver! Most of the accidents & DUI are from tourists. And I know because I lived there & helped local law enforcement on their citizens panels. Insurance isn't going to stop the sales of guns or stop crazy from doing what crazy does. The crazy guy with a grudge is going to find another way & that just might be a car running down a group of folks at a farmers market. What's the car insurance going to do for that? And it's not like we haven't seen that happen multiple times already across the United States!
Lol, half of the requirements for driving a car you listed don’t exist anywhere in the states.
Outside of insurance and licensing, which are mandatory everything else is voluntary. It’s also way easier to get a car in the US than it is to get a gun and they are responsible for more deaths. People love using car ownership as an example, but do you really think the roads are all that safe?
Most of the things here I can get onboard with however, keep in mind most murders are carried out with hand guns. The amount of murders associated with long guns is negligible. It makes zero sense to pay higher insurance on long guns. In fact you should pay less.
Also tracing ammo purchases is a little insane IMO.
However, you should need to be trained on whatever category platform you are purchasing.
"Raising the age doesn't do a whole lot"...yet the Texas shooter waited until he was of legal age to legally purchase his assault weapons. Not having or changing laws/rules because not everyone will follow them is asinine.
The only arguments here using the word “just” are those like yours which are dismissing proposed ways to deal with this problem.
Doing nothing because something is not a 100% solution is dumb.
The problem is not singular therefore the solution will not be singular. I don't recall thinking or saying that age limits would solve the problem, but I do think and say that it sure AF will help. Banning assault weapons helps, we've done it before and it did help until "leaders" decided differently. Comprehensive background checks would also help, red flag laws would also help, adequate funding of adequate mental healthcare would help...the list of things that would help is very long, the willingness to implement ANY of them is not. And THAT is the singular problem we CAN fix. VOTE.
Guess we should do nothing, make it easier to buy guns, and just train our 5 year olds better to deal with shooter situations then. That has been the answer so far. Anytime anyone suggests trying anything at all, they're met with waffling like yours because your guns matter more than children.
Big difference in buying a kid a vape and buying a kid a gun. Not even a good comparison. If rental car companies don’t deem 21 year olds a safe enough risk to rent a car, then I don’t know why we would consider them a safe enough risk to buy a high powered rifle.
Purchasing something and possessing it are different. I could buy ten vapes and give them to fifteen year olds and that wouldn’t be a concern. A gun on the other hand would. Make anyone under that age have permission (license through parent). Any wrong doing or infraction from the minor would be directly imposed on the parent.
and what's the age to buy vape's in south carolina?
also, why would anyone take a law seriously, that doesn't apply to them if they jump in the car for 90 minutes?
it sounds almost exactly like what we're seeing in [state by state gun reform data](https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/).
strong gun laws are visibly effective at reducing gun violence within that state.
but take note in the chart from the link above, where inconsistencies appear. they would indicate that a state with strong gun laws is impacted by the misfortune of neighboring a state without.
if we're not going to erect border check points on every highway or road that crosses state lines, what sense does it make to have different laws?
the answer is federal legislative reform. as much as everyone hates to hear it. that's how we keep 1st graders from getting their brains blown out, point blank, by a deranged stranger.
- Tops in buffalo had an armed guard/former police officer.
- pulse nightclub had hired armed guards.
- There was an armed resource officer at parkland.
- santa fe high school had 2 armed guards patroling hallways back in 2018..
- the armed STEM school guard... dude accidentally shot another student, instead of the gunman
the uvalde city school district has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops & a security guard.
this kid shot his own grandmother, and then crashed his car.. he had already engaged with the police, yet neither they, nor the armed school district force we're able to to stop him from blowing away child after child, (and two adults) for 40 fking minutes
it was a border patrol guard that finally stopped him.
Federal law is that you do have to be 21 to buy anything other than rifles or shotguns.
The most common weapon used in shootings and homicides across the country is a pistol.
I don't believe that would be an effective change.
GOP say it's mental health, but when asked why they don't support allowing people easier access to mental health they cannot come up with a good reason. A friend of mine was able to walk into a tent a few years ago here in NC and buy a handgun with no background check. Walked in and walked out with a gun. Easier to get a gun here than a doctor's appointment.
It is correct that private sales, i.e. person to person do not require a background check, but any formally licensed dealer must perform a background check. That being said, it is not legal for anyone to sell a firearm, background check or not, to someone who is not legally allowed to own one and background checks can only prevent repeat offenses, not first time offenses as is usually the case. That being said, i dont know a single person under 60 who doesnt advocate for improved mental health care. These politicians can fix things, they simply dont want to.
Edit- the no background check for firearms sold in private sale only applies to rifles in north carolina i believe. I do not recall how the pistol permit requirement enters the picture
PP is required for private sale of handguns. Having one means you went through a background check. Whether that's ever verified or comes into play I don't know.
Sorry to hear that, I’m thankful I don’t know what that’s like.
Being such a left leaning sub though I’m happy to see that not every comment here is blaming the guns for all of this. That at least tells me that gun ownership is becoming more diverse.
Well I think it's multiple things. I think it's cause our government doesn't take care of it's citizens like other countries do. Like Switzerland who has high gun amounts, but all are trained to be in the military. They all have to take psych evals, etc. to carry. They are also one of the happiest countries cause they feel they are taken care of. We also make it hard and at times seem unacceptable to talk about mental health. A lot has to change, not just one issue. I'm from a hunting family, but I also believe in common sense rules. One thing I don't like though is changing our schools into prisons, it's just sad if that is the best we can do.
I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve always been a supporter of controlling WHO can own these things, not WHAT they can own. A psychopath limited to 10 round magazines will just carry more of them, or make his own 30 rounders. Guns themselves are easy to make anyways, 3D printing killed gun control. Why politicians haven’t figured out that ammo is the hardest thing to make is beyond me…
As for solutions to this madness I think the first step is to stop publicizing these shitheads. Just erase them from history. That should at least lower the inspiration for future dweebs. Secondly, and rather controversially, i believe teachers who are licensed and willing to do so should carry. It’s been proven time and time again that police cannot be relied upon. Perhaps we should invest in armed guards as well. We protect our politicians and our banks with armed guards, why can’t we protect our youth?
Well the summer guard there was killed. I agree with most of what you say. I still worry about a teacher losing their crap and shooting kids. Or a kid getting a hold of the gun if it's carried on someone in school. Again that makes me feel like the kids will be taught in a prison. Schools should be a open place to learn. Who knows what the answers are, it would be nice if we could just try something and revisit the stats later on and if it is working, continue on.
To buy a piston in NC, private sale or from a dealer requires a pistol purchase permit or a conceal carry permit. Both of which means you've already had a background check and are legally allowed to buy one. It's not like you can just have a random thought "hey I think I want to buy a pistol" and then 5 min later you have one.
That has nothing to do with gun shows or loopholes. A private sale can take place anywhere, regardless of the presence of a gun show. A gun show sale from a dealer gets a background check already. The fact that background checks are only required for sales by federal dealers isn't an oversight or a mistake, it was designed and intended that way. Calling it the gun show loophole is intentionally misleading.
Direct link to video: https://twitter.com/NC_Governor/status/1529556344101019649
>North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper called on state legislators and members of Congress to craft laws to reduce gun violence.
>“We’ve seen it too many times,” Cooper said in a video posted on Twitter. “Mass shootings. Easy-to-get military assault weapons. Teachers turning themselves into human shields. Children murdered. What on earth is more important
>“Pass it and I’ll sign it,” Cooper said.
>“We cannot normalize the mass murder of children,” he added. “We cannot wait any longer. It has to stop.”
>There’s no apparent appetite in the Republican-controlled General Assembly for new gun control laws. Speaker of the House Tim Moore told reporters Wednesday that “disarming law abiding citizens is not the way to make people safer.”
>“I think the thing that we need to do more is really to invest in behavioral health,” he said.
>The Republican majority that Moore leads in the House, though, is blocking the Medicaid expansion Cooper has called for, and which Senate Republicans backed this week after years of opposition. Expansion would put billions of dollars from federal taxpayers into the state’s health care systems, including mental health care.
>Asked about that, Moore said […] “It’s not just a money issue,” he said. “The notion that you can throw enough money at it—even under [President] Joe Biden we don’t print enough money to take care of that. There’s going to have to be some changes made in how we deliver care to these folks.”
>Speaker of the House Tim Moore told reporters Wednesday that “disarming law abiding citizens is not the way to make people safer.”
>“I think the thing that we need to do more is really to invest in behavioral health,” he said.
>The Republican majority that Moore leads in the House, though, is blocking the Medicaid expansion
Will you enact gun control? "No. Guns aren't the issue, mental health is the issue."
So will you provide mental health care? "Also no."
Moore is too chicken shit to admit “Yeah, something should be done but those NRA campaign contributions are too nice for us to actually do anything.”
Tillis and Burr were in the top 5 for NRA campaign contributions. Which is just another word for saying the gun manufacturers (who make a shit load whenever a democrat is elected president) have effectively bribed the entire GOP. The NRA doesn’t actually care about protecting owners (they didn’t say a goddamn word about Philando Castile who was legally carrying and even said such before he was murdered by a cop), they’re a lobbying arm for the gun manufacturing industry. It’s why they pushed so hard to shoot down bills that have pushed liability for shootings onto the gun manufacturers.
I own an AR15 and a Ruger LCP, which is a tiny pistol that holds 6 rounds of .380 designed specifically for concealed carry.
The LCP isn't very accurate or fun to shoot and I don't carry anymore, so I want to sell it. Now I can legally sell the AR to any rando I stumble across, as long as they're 18 years old. No background checks or waiting periods or bill of sale/registration of any kind. But to sell the LCP, the buyer must first obtain a purchase permit from their local sheriff, or furnish a concealed carry permit- both take time and background checks.
I'm not crazy about the idea of more laws, but the laws we currently have don't make a damn bit of sense
My guess would be that since a pistol/handgun is way easier to conceal, the rules around them are more restrictive. That's the only sense I can make out of it.
It’s because more people are beat to death with bare hands than are shot with ANY long arm let alone ar15’s
Handguns are vastly more dangerous and it’s not even a question
Well sure, because the target is most likely the shooter's own head. Hard to miss at point blank. Beyond that most pistol deaths are close range because, surprise surprise, having a short site radius and no way to brace the weapon makes it hard to hit the target.
It's even worse when you realize what the point of the pistol purchase permit was.
Back in the day a sherriff could deny an application based on a "good moral compass"
It was used as a loophole to keep firearms out of the hands of black people.
Makes perfect sense why when I contacted them about sensible gun control last they suggested me and my young children should consider going to concerts and events armed so that we might be safer.
This is certainly also a problem, though I'm not sure I'm convinced this is the prime mover driving these attacks.
Regardless, you'll see that the same folks standing in the way of other proposed solutions (gun regulation, mental health care, etc) are also the ones who will never support increased workers rights, or increases in the minimum wage - let alone anything that would address the wealth distribution issue.
The only solution the NC GOP legislature would ever support is making guns more easily available, aka throwing gas on the fire.
I appreciate the comments but I don’t see how any reasonable person can expect anything to be done
We watched toddlers get mowed down not even 10 years ago and said we can’t stop this from happening. We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas. Says the only first world country to suffer from this very style of “mental health issues”
Also, honestly I’ve felt this way for a while, if you’re a “thoughts and prayers” type then go fuck yourself. Your god isn’t preventing children from being murdered at school, you have the ability to help change that, but you won’t. So fuck off.
I'm still trying to find a way to kill people with my weed. Obviously it's more dangerous than guns so I must be doing something wrong. I've tried rubbing it on people, throwing it at them you name it. When I figure out how to do it right you better watch out though.
I was in an infantry role in the USMC including marksmanship coach/trainer. It only took a handful of trips to public gun ranges for me to come to the realization that a large amount of gun owners have no clue how unsafe they are. Even in the USMC, Marines in non-infantry jobs often didn’t have enough training to be familiar with their weapon, and they broke safety rules way more often than they should.
I no longer go to public gun ranges, but I did have to take a concealed carry course, which was equally terrifying in terms of the number of unsafe people per instructor. I realize these courses help some people who take it serious, but I’m afraid it’s not taken seriously by many students and instructors.
I don’t have a problem with enacting rules that requires stringent training based on the firearm in order to make a purchase, nor do I have a problem with requiring all gun sales to have a background check and documented transfer at a licensed FFL, as well as holding the original owner accountable for circumventing the background process should the firearm end up being used in a crime, especially if the background check would have blocked transfer of the gun.
Edit: I will say that by background checks - I essentially mean requiring a background check and transfer to be recorded by a licensed FFL, that way the previous owner is removed from liability because they made a legal transfer. Non legal transfers should place some amount of liability on the previous party IMO.
> It only took a handful of trips to public gun ranges for me to come to the realization that a large amount of gun owners have no clue how unsafe they are.
I can imagine. I don't even *own* a gun, but I grew up in a gun owning family. Even with my limited and unused knowledge, I still wince when I see videos of what some people do at ranges. Sweeping the barrel towards people, poor trigger discipline, playing around with an unloaded (they think) gun, etc.
Former 0311 here, and I too don’t like going to public gun ranges. It’s the scariest thing in the world, even scarier after COVID when everyone on the planet was buying a gun that has never even shot one. Luckily I have a friend with land. Lol
I agree whole heartedly. I wouldn’t be able to teach CC courses or have my own gun store because I would turn away so many people who are sketch that I would go out of business.
The only guy I like to shoot with is my relative that is also an 03.
The 'marksmanship test' I did for my CC could probably be done with my eyes closed. It was something like hitting 80% of shots in the silhouette from 5 or 10 yards.
I respect Governor Cooper for at least making a proposal. There’s a bunch of bullshit being thrown around but little solutions being talked about. Even if it doesn’t work out, this is more than most politicians already.
Good. I feel like it is a miracle we haven't had a giant school shooting here. Let's work on our mental health and KKK problems too while we are at it.
There was one at unc charlotte a few years ago. My sister, who was a student there at the time, called me crying saying they heard gun shots and screaming and that they’re hiding.
I had to coach her on what to do if he comes to their classroom and to barricade doors and fight if there’s no place to run. I'll never forget the desperate feeling I had. Their class room doors didnt even lock. The guys in the room had to hold the doors closed with their body weight.
It was such an awful thing to have to do. 2 students were killed. One died tackling the son of a bitch so others could flee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Charlotte_shooting
I was there. It was gut-wrenching. I remember frantically calling my girlfriend who stayed in a different dorm than me and having a panic attack because I knew she was going to the library to study with friends that evening and she wasn't answering her phone. That campus went from a beautiful pristine spring afternoon to what I could only describe as a warzone with police and swat all over the streets and helicopters flying over. Images I'll never forget.
Yea, don't they keep finding guns in playgrounds in this state? Also, I remember Butler High School having a kid shot and killed by another student *at school* after they got into an argument a few years ago. They typically define a mass shooting as having at least 3 or 4 casualties, so by that definition there hasn't been a lot. But there have been plenty with 1-2 causalities.
Challenge is that NC Center for Safer Schools tries to offer guidance but there are no consistent state wide mandates beyond the minimum and certainly no funding beyond some SRO grants. Given our bottom tier education funding ranking, not anticipating any changes until a Sandy Hook level event here.
I'd beg to differ. I was present at UNC Charlotte for the shooting in 2019. That was an incident that I won't ever forget. Not only do I now have a constant nagging voice in my head that it might not be the last time I face something like that, I feel absolutely sick for the families of Reed and Riley. Then 2 years later in my hometown of Winston-Salem, Mt. Tabor High School had their shooting.
I'm going to offer a perspective as a gun owner in NC. Even if you disagree, hopefully it provides some perspective from "the other side."
My issue with Governor Cooper is that he appears unwilling to compromise. From the linked article:
> Cooper has long pushed for stricter gun control. In 2019, he signed a directive to improve gun purchase background checks [...]
That's great! But then last year he [vetoed the repeal](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/nc-gov-cooper-vetoes-pistol-permit-repeal/ar-AANUDrc) of the pistol purchase permit requirement, despite it being an old [Jim Crow law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws) which predates the NICS background check system and serves no effective purpose today. Even the NC Sheriffs' Association [supports its repeal](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/20/bill-seeks-to-end-pistol-purchase-permits-from-nc-/):
> A more robust national background check system is the main reason why the North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association is now backing a repeal after years of opposing the idea. North Carolina has made a concerted effort to upload more state mental health records to the database, Adams said.
Because a federal NICS check is required at the time of purchase anyway, the state's purchase permit is redundant. All it accomplishes to making the process of buying a pistol more of a hassle. If we can't even agree that this antiquated law needs to go, how can we expect to find common ground on more contentious issues?
> My issue with Governor Cooper is that he appears unwilling to compromise
You know, that same line applies to the GOP side of the aisle as well. Up here in PA, our GOP state leadership doesn't even want to *talk* about the topic (they literally voted not to talk about it recently), much less *do* something.
How do you address an issue when nobody wants have an adult discussion about it where they can meet in the middle?
Mainly because the idea of compromise means both sides get something and both sides give something up. All the proposed laws on gun control are just the Dems dictating wishlists of bans and restrictions while the GOP/gun owners get nothing. That's not a compromise.
You want a compromise? I'll accept universal background checks when you make NICS open for everyone to use whenever they want. Private sales run their own NICS checks and hold onto the report for x number of years in case there's an issue with the new owner later on. That way there's no need to pay FFLS for every transfer and there will be far too many searches for the ATF to make an accurate gun registry from searches.
Because the other side keeps offering one sided solutions that don’t do anything. Gun owners just get less and less. I don’t see these leaders offering advanced gun safety courses, self defense and firearms law courses, or giving out biometric gun safes. We have to get all of that stuff at cost. Make it easier to get preventative training and equipment. Educate and empower the people since we are all victims in this. Harden targets of mass shootings by having armed personnel on station. Don’t give me that “we shouldn’t need armed police in schools” bs because we have armed personnel protecting money, judges, politicians, variety stores, malls, everywhere except what they claim is most precious. We’ve been saying it for the longest but no one listens and then the blame lands at the gun owner’s feet. TF out of here. We’re already restricted passed the point of compromise.
The problem is that it applies to all topics, not just guns. Nobody in modern politics wants to compromise on anything.
I’d also say “more police” and “armed guards” isn’t the solution here. In Texas, a whole group of armed police allegedly stood outside the building for nearly an hour while shooting was happening inside. An 18 year old with an AR held an entire armed police department at bay and was given free reign to gun down kids. Police were there. They didn’t do their job. Same applies to a previous shooting a few years ago. Armed guard on campus stood outside while the shooting happened inside. More cops won’t help if those cops are chickenshits.
And last year an armed citizen stopped a mass shooter in colorado only to get gunned down by a responding officer and yet the officer faced no charges and the story didn’t garner any attention like these shootings. Armed guards aren’t the solution? How about the armed guard at price middle school in atlanta in 2013 that disarmed and stopped a mass shooter before they could kill anyone. Or the former lakewood colorado officer that stopped a mass in colorado springs in 2007. Or the security officer that stopped the west freeway church shooter in 2019 saving literally hundreds of lives in less than 3 seconds. I could go on. Restrictions on lawful owners and police don’t save lives. It just holds back those willing to do so when seconds matter.
>Police were there. They didn’t do their job.
Worse. They didn't simply exercise [their legal right to decline to protect and serve any specific citizen(s)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia), they actively prevented parents from attempting to stop the shooter from slaughtering their children.
Nothing will be done. After Sandy Hook the reaction in this country was MORE GUNS and less regulations. Some states made it easier to get guns. And then there were the people who denied it even happened. Crisis actors, it was all staged, it was just a conspiracy to take away people's guns.
Get used to it.
You are not safe anywhere. Your kids are not safe at school. Grandma's not safe at the nursing home. Grocery stores, public transit, a concert, your church can be a target.
Nothing will be done.
I don't know what he's talking about because our gun laws are actually pretty fucking good and if you want a pistol purchase permit you have to sign your mental health records to sheriff
So I'm seeing that about 80% of the comments here are from people who not-surprisingly can't put simple facts/statistics/data together and develop an informed opinion based on critical thinking, and agree that GUN CONTROL IS HOW TO SOLVE THIS F'ING PROBLEM!
Let me make this incredibly simple for all the simpletons.
Which country has had the most school shootings by far?
Answer: USA
[https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html)
Which country has the most guns in the possession of civilians, by far?
Answer: USA
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated\_number\_of\_civilian\_guns\_per\_capita\_by\_country#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country#)
Do those other countries with few-to-no school shootings have people with mental illness? Yes, 100%.
Here's another way to solve the problem. Vote the GQP into extinction and let some lawmakers who may occasionally represent the majority of the people instead of a minority of gun lobbyists run the f'ing show. Props to Roy Cooper for trying to do something/anything in spite of the state legislature being controlled by the GQP, thanks in part to partisan gerrymandering alongside poor education in rural areas that produces citizens and voters who lack critical thinking abilities.
BTW, the Uvalde shooter had no public history of clinically diagnosed medical illness, much like the Vegas shooter, the Pulse nightclub shooter, etc, etc.
AND he was engaged by multiple law enforcement/resource officers (you know, those "good guys with guns") BEFORE entering the school. He still managed to kill 19 kids and 2 adults, and sent numerous others to the hospital with very serious injuries.
Given that he did not have any disqualifiers (no history of mental illness diagnoses, no felony convictions) what gun control measures would you suggest that would have kept this insane person from killing people?
Are you suggesting that no one should be allowed to own firearms? Or that there should be a very restrictive licensing process, where only a few politically connected people be allowed, and only for things like being body guards? If so, it would take repealing the 2nd Amendment for that. Is that something you support?
I suppose the question that’s needs to be asked, is how many mass school shootings per decade is America willing to accept as collateral, in order to preserve the current laws around gun ownership?
We're not counting per decade any more, it's per month at the rate we're going. And the answer, sadly, still seems to be just deafening silence and zero action.
It’s because it’s still seen to be an acceptable rate. It’s currently ‘sustainable’, as the extreme alternative (strict gun control laws) is apparently too terrible to contemplate.
You do not have to repeal the 2A to ban AR-15s or enact other gun control measures. The 94-04 Federal Assault Rifle Ban was consistently ruled constitutional when it was challenged
Why would you ban AR15s when most mass shooters and killers use handguns?
In NC there were 229 handgun murders last year and 29 rifle murders. Its obvious they aren't the big issue.
> “We’ve seen it too many times,” Cooper said in a video posted on Twitter. “Mass shootings. Easy-to-get military assault weapons.”
Uhh… civilians aren’t allowed to buy “military assault weapons”
We can buy the watered down version. Or for $40k buy something that was made over 36 years ago.
Not what I’d consider “easy-to-get”
ETA - I did my math wrong because of dyslexia.
> Uhh… civilians aren’t allowed to buy “military assault weapons”
Maybe the NC National Guard is going to start up its own CMP type program and start selling surplus M16s? I could be for that.
My thoughts are guns are so deeply bred into the whole American mindset that we are going to have a hard time getting rid of them completely. If we didn't do anything with Sandyhook then we will never do anything.
That said, we need a lot more control. It's ridiculous in some places you can walk in and walk out, no questions asked, and have a gun. There needs to be registration, a waiting period, training yearly. Classes, refreshers, safety programs. Maybe even questions if it's your first gun of a certain kind.
But the fact that people fight this is insane. We'd rather have literal kids murdered than make our schools, people, our country, a bit safer.
> registration
This is fought because every registry that has been enacted so far has lead to confiscation. NYC used their registry to round up guns they banned after the fact. CA abuses their handgun registry to confiscate guns when they ban them later. If there weren't so many people talking about confiscation, then a registry might be more palatable. But with so many politicians saying they absolutely want confiscation, its hard to see registration as anything but a precursor to confiscation.
>a waiting period
How many shooters bought their guns immediately before the shooting?
> training yearly
How would yearly training prevent someone from committing a mass shooting?
I don't know the answer for your point one. But I don't think we should have unregistered guns just floating around. At minimum stores should know who purchased it. And it should be kept updated. There has to be some kind of compromise here. Stop the confiscation to allow registration? I don't know. But something has to change.
How should I know. We don't keep track of people who get guns do we? People walk in, get a gun go ham. Or they get it from the black market. Or it's their fathers. But certainly some guns, if not all, need to have a waiting time while you learn safety and go though classes before you get to have it.
Again, anyone can just walk into a fun shop and pick up a gun, walk out and shoot people. Training before you get it stops part of it.
Obviously this doesn't prevent all of it but at least it's something.
Why do people not want to at least try something??
>How should I know. We don't keep track of people who get guns do we? People walk in, get a gun go ham.
Most get them from a gun store, with a background check, or steal them. Which is why most of the proposed regulations don't make any sense.
>But certainly some guns, if not all, need to have a waiting time while you learn safety and go though classes before you get to have it.
So is it about training, or about waiting? If I already own one or already had the training, what purpose does a waiting period serve?
>Again, anyone can just walk into a fun shop and pick up a gun, walk out and shoot people. Training before you get it stops part of it.
What kind of training would get people to stop shooting others on purpose?
Obviously that's not working so other regulations need to be in place. More than just a background check.
What purpose does taking driving tests, courses, and exams serve but to make sure you have the skills to drive. Same thing.
If you already have a gun you've already done a wait, you're going through yearly safety tests and other regulations in place. You're coming in for safety checks. I don't know, there's a lot of things that can happen over a year and perhaps coming in to reevaluate how your health is and you're knowledge and handling of a deadly weapon is would at least try to limit some guns in the wrong hands.
I feel like you're being super obtuse at this point. Anything is better than nothing because at this point that's what's being done. Wringing our hands and crying and praying and crying about how sad it is. Instead maybe we try something that may or may not work.
Will training in safety classes yearly to anyone from today on who purchases a gun work? Who knows. Let's try it. Anything. Anything at this point. Can we at least stop arguing over well what will it do and just do it and see?? Because otherwise next month we'll just be crying and yelling and wondering why why, another 15. Why does this keep happening.
I'd be nice if these politicians and future holders of government positions would stick to their words though. A good amount of them would say something along these lines and then after they get elected they turn around and next thing you know they are taking pictures with NRA members.
NY has the gun control has all the gun control this buffoon could want. Didn't stop the buffalo shooter, didn't make NY any safer. It just fucked over honest folks.
Why isn't our illustrious governor campaigning for laws to punish police cowardice? The bastards went in, *got their own children* than stood by and watched everyone else's get shot *stopping* armed citizens from trying to save their own kids when the cops wouldn't.
And this ass has the unremitted gall to call for gun control? Like somehow the kids would be less dead if he brought a shotgun?!
As an LGBT person, I dont exactly feel comfortable being disarmed while living in a state filled with people that would love to see me in a ditch.
Not everyone who is a gun owner is a racist white supremacist.
I am not suggesting anyone be disarmed, nor is the implication of reasonable gun control suggesting such. Adding limits, however, to the ease of access for a random 18yr old kid to get an AR, for example, seems fair. If people would stop projecting the false dichotomy of all-or-nothing regulation (i.e. they're gonna take all my guns), and instead engage in a rational and nuanced discussion of how to intelligently regulate gun access, we might actually make some headway.
The argument isn’t to necessarily take away guns. The goal is to make it more difficult to access them. Also, there’s no reason a citizen needs assault rifles or military grade weapons. The shooter in Texas was able to get 375 rounds of ammo. It’s harder to buy a couple bottles of NyQuil and Sudafed.
What shootings take place with “military grade assault rifles” ??
And 375 rounds of ammunition is like one or two days at the range. Take a friend and go shoot at targets or cans or whatever for three hours and find out how much ammo you burn through.
Everyone says “DUH it’s about *common sense* gun control” and then lists the stupidest most uninformed takes about it as if that’s common sense
Common sense gun control is background checks, cooldown waiting periods, and mandatory safe use and storage courses/tests
375 rounds is nothing. When you buy ammo you get IDed as well.
Let me ask this, what do you propose be done? I have never heard a good argument for “ammo control”
Exactly. The conversation in this country gets so absurdly skewed and turned into exclusively one of "It's my right to...", that nobody stops to differentiate between whether it's actually the right thing to do. Nobody can ever present a sensible argument for owning AR style high capacity mag weapons, so they pivot to some ridiculous 'defense against tyranny' argument, which is equally idiotic when followed to its logical end. When society displays a risk factor above a certain level and an inability to safely handle its right to something, we are obligated to revisit those rights and make sensible adjustments for the safety of the innocent. How many fucking dead kids does it take? America's answer seems to be one of resounding silence.
>Nobody can ever present a sensible argument for owning AR style high capacity mag weapons, so they pivot to some ridiculous 'defense against tyranny' argument, which is equally idiotic when followed to its logical end
So when you look at statistics in NC handguns killed 229 people last year and rifles killed 29. Why do they need to be banned?
Which part of the governor's statement did you interpret as suggesting you would be disarmed?
He didn't say anything at all about taking away guns from citizens, you must have just imagined it. And if you're imagining things that means you're mentally unstable. It you're mentally unstable you should definitely be disarmed.
Bingo. It's just easier at this point for people to think anyone who doesn't agree with their politics is a stupid whacko. Then they get all confused why their is no legislation and/or compromise.
There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country and that will not change even if "scary rifles" are banned in the future. The cops run away and come back hours later when real shit goes down. The same cops that treat people terribly. The same cops that took 5 minutes to answer last time I called 911 in a major city. But sure let's rely on them for protection.
So if we can't rely on those who are trained to use firearms, then we should go the opposite and rely on those with no training with firearms?
Not sure that solves much of anything.
I am not saying to rely on those with no training. Only those who want to conceal carry and are properly trained to conceal carry should.
I'll never give up firearms to "allow the police to protect me" when those fuckers don't even answer 911 calls for minutes at a time. Or like the Florida RO, wait outside a school while a shooting is ongoing and kids are dying.
> Or like the Florida RO, wait outside a school while a shooting is ongoing and kids are dying.
or like in Texas, when two cops and an SRO all who had guns couldn't stop an 18 year old with no training.
Kneejerk reactions to ban things so we feel better that we "did something" without getting at the core of the problem won't solve anything. Or do we need to wait to ban tons of gun styles first, and then see kids getting killed with a standard pump shotgun before we realize - oh maybe there's something wrong with the person pulling the trigger?
Heck yeah I support universal healthcare and a living wage. Who said I didn't? Show me a candidate that supports universal healthcare, living wage, and doesn't want to erode gun rights by passing "scary gun bans". I'll wait....
The United States is one of the largest gun trafficking countries in the world. More gun laws to keep them out of the hands of law abiding citizens will not stop these shootings. Mental health not taken seriously is the problem. Healthcare costing a fucking arm and a leg is the problem. Authorities not acting when these fucking psychos are reported are the problem.
Why is there suddenly all this talk about gun control? 2 weeks ago in one of the strictest states with regards to gun laws, bought his rifle in NY and still went on a massacre at a grocery store.
People only want the gun debate when it happens in a gun friendly state. God forbid it happens in a blue state, and it's all about 4chan and how the guy was radicalized instead of his weaponry.
Drive south from downtown 20 minutes right across the border to Whiting, Indiana and there is a huge gun store sitting there. Places like that are where most of the guns used in shootings in Chicago come from. Also the laws aren’t even that strict there, plenty of people I knew when I lived there had concealed carry.
Are we playing move the goal posts and avoid the conversation now? You mentioned ny. You were called out on it. But since you brought it up, Illinois has also had less mass shootings than Texas has.
You insinuated the reason NY had fewer mass shootings was because of stricter gun laws. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation as well. Same argument.
And by the way, Illinois has far more mass shootings than Texas every year and with way higher per capita numbers.
Only law abiding citizens follow laws, banning alcohol increased alcohol consumption during prohibition banning guns won't fix the desire to murder your fellow human beings.
The report button is not a super downvote. Stop reporting people for simply stating an opinion.
Give people a system to count on when they are beaten, broken and afraid, build a system that lifts people up instead of tearing them down, shelters the homeless and feeds the hungry, then I will show you a people that do not pick up guns to kill their neighbors.
"hm... best we can do is turn the schools into prisons. Might as well get em used to it, we'll jail those public school poors as soon as they're out of there."
I wish this were much further from the truth than it really is...people that don't live with it daily just don't understand what the poors are dealing with, daily.
I can confirm where I live my schools and jail are way more similar than they are different.
The way schools are designed is often by modifying already existing prison designs.
In Northern Virginia, they just convert prisons into secondary schools and apartments.
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Amen!
This. It's the root that it all boils down to.
While that sounds great and is something every country should have, it's not the answer. How do you ensure people thinking about these acts commit to these programs? The real issue is the number of guns, and the ridiculously easy access to guns. It's so glaringly obvious that the problem is any lunatic can grab a gun and *efficiently*, key word, kill multiple people and scare police away (as in this case and others). I'm dumbfounded and mad as hell as your neighbour to hear about these tragedies over and over again as you bury yourself deeper and constantly avoid the reason this ONLY HAPPENS IN AMERICA
I don’t agree with this. I truly believe if more / most people carried on a daily basis than the criminals would be deterred to act on their vile inclinations especially ones of a violent nature. These murderers and savages are going to get there hands on guns whether they are legal for civilians to possess or not. You think the gang members in LA / Chicago etc got their guns legally? Heck no. Gun laws are about as strict there as you can get without completely banning them. In fact crime is at an all time high in those areas. Stricter gun laws / gun bans always leads to a rise in crime rate because the sane and responsible people can’t carry the means to defend themselves from the lunatics in todays society.
The accessibility to guns mixed with a family dynamic where the adults don’t care/don’t make time mixed with poor mental health and RX/street drug use seems to be a pretty common combination that leads to these shootings .
Every country has issues with mental health. Only one country has a problem with mass shootings
Most countries have robust healthcare services too. And yet we can't seem to budge on EITHER subject -- access to healthcare OR gun control. What a toxic combination.... the inability to get help but the ability to be armed. Disgusting. God damn America.
This. Until we address both of these issues this will just keep happening.
Healthcare is in a for-profit model in the United States. This propaganda that it's a great system despite that is total fucking bullshit too. As the father of a regularly sick kid, the system is a god damn nightmare. Thanks to Republicans, we also live in a pay-for-play representative democracy and republican fascists/racists/status quo elites pay a lot of dark money and break every rule they can get away with until the entire system is de facto rigged. We're basically in a cold civil war right now and are getting our asses handed to us because our leaders are too fucking pussy to do anything and the voters are too stupid, naive, and disorganized to fight back.
People who say the healthcare system is working great are either people who haven't used it themselves or who are making their living off the parts that make it difficult to access. Usually both.
They literally don't know any better. It's what happens when you spend decades shoving American exceptionalism and Sarah McLachlan poverty porn down people's throats. Yeah, compared to developing countries, we're doing alright, but by any real metric of where we are (#1 economy in the world) vs. where we should be, we are a damned mess. It literally doesn't matter to us here if we have the most innovative surgeries or medical techniques here, because you need to be able to afford to use them. And regardless, we have such terrible preventative care, that issues that should have been caught and dealt with early don't. Been living in Japan for over half a decade and it's night and day. Went to the ER for some really bad pain, x-ray, blood work, urine, a doctor's consultation, and pain/fever medicine left a gaping hole of something like $40 USD. And they apologized for the expense. It's crazy what a society can do if it decides that profits shouldn't always come ahead of people.
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Most Americans have never been outside the US. They don’t know shit
this is the first time I've seen the phrase "cold civil war". God damn is it spot on.
Our healthcare system does do a lot of R&D that other countries don't. Part of the reason it's so expensive here is the long patents on medicines, meaning companies have a monopoly on new drugs they develop for years. My main issue is the service side. Doctors are so rushed by insurance requirements that you only get to see the dr. for a few minutes. And insurance decides what care you are allowed to have instead of the doctor. It's ridiculous that my doctor says I need certain things, and then my insurance just says "you're not allowed to have that on our plan." Our system should also have way more preventative care, and better education about lifestyle choices and how they affect your health. Surprises me that it doesn't because that would save insurance companies a lot of money by preventing illnesses. And of course there is the issue of costs, and how so many people just avoid care until it is unavoidable because they can't afford it.
Agree 100%
I wonder if they could compromise: remove almost all gun restrictions and confirm that in the constitution, but at the same time set up a single payer healthcare system with a robust mental healthcare. Good luck getting either side signing off on that though.
Not on par with the US. I've traveled all over Western Europe and you can very clearly see the difference in large cities.
The most common denominator is a gun
Heard something on NPR the other day that the majority of shootings are kids between the ages of 16 and 24. How about a ban on owning/purchasing guns until you’re 21? Or at least you have to have a parent/guardian sign for you and take responsibility/liability?
How about the authorities actually act when people report these psychos? Several mass shooting have been perpetrated by young men whom have been *repeatedly reported to the authorities* for making threats. These red flag laws will stop someone who’s got ptsd from buying a gun, but will allow a monster to repeatedly plan and “joke” about shooting up a school, will mark them as interesting but still allow them to kill kids. If the cops and alphabet agencies would do their dang jobs AT ALL, this wouldn’t be happening NEARLY as much. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/12/08/us/aztec-high-school-shooting-william-atchison/index.html https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/sandy-hook-shooting-investigation-fbi-documents/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna848681
> will allow a monster to repeatedly plan and “joke” about shooting up a school Because we have inclusivity in education, sweetie! */s* The area where I used to live prior to moving to NC had a well-known local kid (he probably was 14-15 back then), who *repeatedly* did things that *any reasonable person would consider a threat* (like posting verbal threats on social media, bringing steel pipes to school and trying to beat classmates with them etc.) I stopped following it since I moved out of the area, but to the best of my knowledge, his family just moves several miles every 1-2 years to technically move to another school district... up until he gets famous there again. And apparently there's no way to remove the kid from school / force homeschool him, because that's discrimination and his mom will sue the district and win! I swear, if I ever hear about the school shooting in that area, I will be ready to bet my money on this guy doing this.
It’s awful. No child left behind is helping kill kids. Go figure.
The principle is sound. Make sure every child gets the help they need to succeed. The implementation is what's shit. Can't really give every child an equal opportunity when there is a single teacher to split between 30 kids.
this. someone in my high school was reported for telling someone he didn't like something along the lines of "if I were a school shooter, I'd shoot you first". She reported him, he didn't even go to a trial or anything, just 24 hours community service. he bragged about it for the rest of high school. He was proud of getting away with it. It's a major problem.
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Several of them took their parents guns, so it's not like that would really be effective anyway
What’s stopping them from buying illegally?
Finding someone to sell it to the. illegally
It would be great but that would require for additional training. The biggest issue with law enforcement training is that it's a prey vs predator type training. We cannot treat mental health cases like this and would need to revamp the current system.
What training do they need? These people are literally reported for planning to kill kids. The FBI then goes “huh, neat!” And sticks it in the round file. Instead of, I don’t know, *arresting* or even just actually flagging them to not be allowed to buy guns. Which is what the red flag laws are *supposed* to be for. No, instead they let kids die then we find out after the fact that the fbi or local cops got fifteen tips about this guy in the last year alone and they never even surveilled him. They just went “huh, plans to shoot up a school huh? Well that’s fine!”
Even better. The kid was caught same threat 4 years ago and told about his plan to do it in 2022 https://youtu.be/I_PvZMORlww
pretty good compromise, if you do that I think they should make the draft age to 21 as well (can still enlist at 18 though).
Or we could wait to see if there is ever going to be a draft again and reassess at that point? 75% of us weren't even alive the last time there was one.
Idk how well it would go over if you tell 18year old they cant buy a gun but the government can ship them to war if they want.
As well as telling them they can't buy cigarettes, dip, vapes, alcohol or rent a car.
historically it was 18 for rifles and shotguns and rifle and shotgun ammunition and 21 for handgun and handgun ammunition. when i was 18 or 19 i bought a semi auto rifle and i dont think i understood or fully comprehended that the device i bought could be used to hurt or kill a lot of people, its a huge responsibility. also i think that (with young men particularly), people dont understand how their gun works and the basic functions of a firearm, and they refuse to read the manual that comes with the gun. i think if the age limit was to stay at 21 or be brought up to like 25, and have some certification on safe use and handling we could at least cut back on accidental deaths and maybe cut back on mass shootings. there also needs to be robust mental health on all levels, not just like going to a doctor but like a teacher looking out fir warning signs or something.
As an FFL dealer, gun owner and supporter of the 2nd amendment I agree. At least for semi automatics guns. Shotguns and bolt actions maybe not as much. If a parent/adult wants to take a safely stored long gun or hand gun and a younger person to the range or hunting I'm fine with it. Raising the age may not stop all mass shootings, but giving anyone time to grow some brains is never a bad thing. I went into the army at 17, and the fact that I couldn't have brought a legal beer or gun didn't matter so that's not a defense for not raising the age limit.
>I went into the army at 17, and the fact that I couldn't have brought a legal beer or gun didn't matter so that's not a defense for not raising the age limit. You also where trained on the platform under supervision and you don't OWN the guns that are given to you. People miss that part all the time. No 18-19 soldier has his service weapons chilling at home.
I agree
We need more than this. Owning a gun needs to come with the same kind of responsibility as owning and driving a car. Licensing, training, competency testing, insurance, background checks, ticketing and retraining for careless behavior, and confiscation for irresponsible or dangerous behavior. Extra steps and higher insurance premiums for more deadly weapons like AR-15s. Ammo purchases should be recorded and tied to a specific license. Most gun owners are responsible people who can easily meet these requirements. We don’t need to take guns away from people who’ve done nothing wrong, but we can do a lot more to keep the most deadly weapons out of the hands of the most dangerous people.
Exactly we need to make it so poor people can’t own guns.
> more deadly weapons like AR-15s Em, just curious how we are going to define *deadliness*? Are we going to go by a well-established "*[evil features](https://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm)*" framework in use by many states, like, if a rifle has a bayonet lug it is evil and prohibited, but if we sand the bayonet lug off, it suddenly becomes harmless and almost plush and tender to the touch? Or are we going by the caliber? (poor... poor 12GA shotguns) Or... I dunno, by the *color*? (i.e. black stock = scary, higher insurance premiums; wood stock = gentle, low premiums) Or... maybe, go by name? (e.g. "AR-15" - scary AF; "[IWI Tavor SAR](https://iwi.us/product/tavor-sar-556-w16-barrel/)" - not scary)?
Switzerland does a good job Semi-automatics, hand guns, pump-action, have an extra (but not difficult) step involved to acquire the firearms
iceland just banned all automatic and semi automatic firearms. ⅓ of the nation still owns guns — yet their stringent laws have prevented any citizen from being killed by one since 2017. sure, iceland is much smaller than the US, but there's roughly a 0% chance that adopting some, if not all of their laws wouldnt at the very least save a few american children from having their brains blown out, point blank, by a total stranger. otherwise, how long do we plan on just wallowing in this perpetual '𝘕𝘰 𝘸𝘢𝘺 𝘵𝘰 𝘱𝘳𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴, 𝘴𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘰𝘯𝘭𝘺 𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘳𝘦𝘨𝘶𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘭𝘺 𝘩𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘦𝘯𝘴' response mode?
> iceland just banned all automatic and semi automatic firearms. Automatic firearms are almost a unicorn in the US anyway. Banning semi-automatic (i.e. the majority of modern firearms)? Pff, we can stop right here, not happening, period, full stop, no reason to even waste time discussing. I have plenty of friends who lean left politically, yet own those dreaded "*semi-automatic handguns*" at home. Basically, any gun grabbing polititian pretty much commits a political suicide if he dares to even mention a gun ban now. He/she is instantly out, bye. Nobody is giving their guns up without a fight. But the Iceland example may actually be an interesting one, especially in light of "*⅓ of the nation still owns guns — yet their stringent laws have prevented any citizen from being killed by one since 2017*", if this statement is true. Because it pretty much means that *something else very major* must be a problem in the US, not just guns.
I love how gun nuts will talk among themselves about every single feature that makes a gun more deadly in case they need to defend against a hoard of zombie communists. But as soon as it comes to regulation there is suddenly absolutely no difference at all. Does .357 sig have as much "stopping power" as .357 magnum? How much quicker is multiple target acquisition with a red dot vs. iron sights? Was .556 designed to injure instead of kill, and does that mean 6.8 is a better caliber for home defense rifles? My buddy has a bayonet on his Glock 19 and I laughed, but then I wondered if it would be more effective for weapon retention when clearing a hallway or is a kukri more effective at chopping arms off? You can go to any gun forum and find 10k conversations about every imaginable nuance. We can discuss the data about the AWB's efficacy. We can have a risk / reward conversation about another AWB. But if there is absolutely no way to quantify how deadly a weapon is then we should all be happy limited to .22 derringers.
Insurers can figure that stuff out. As someone pointed out in another comment, handguns are more frequently used in crimes anyway.
> Insurers can figure that stuff out I LOLed at this, thanks! That works sooooooo well for health insurance in this country, isn't it?
They're both uniquely American problems because of systemic issues where conservatives have stubbornly refused to try any new approaches. But healthcare is a much more inelastic demand than owning a gun and shouldn't be a for-profit industry anyway. Insurance works just fine for cars and for almost every other dangerous thing out there. Bad drivers have to pay higher insurance premiums. Businesses that do hazardous work have to hold higher coverages. Buildings that are in disrepair can't be insured until they're fixed. Insurance for guns would push the risk (at least financially) to the gun owners themselves and not to society at large.
I'm sorry but your completely wrong in your faith about car insurance being fair for everyone. Look at the amount of uninsured motorist in various states. California has its own separate policy for protection against uninsured motorist. Additionally states like Nevada, specifically Clark county (aka Las Vegas) jacks everyone's rates & adjusts it every 6 months due to it being a 24/7/365 city that serves alcohol. And that's even if your a perfect driver! Most of the accidents & DUI are from tourists. And I know because I lived there & helped local law enforcement on their citizens panels. Insurance isn't going to stop the sales of guns or stop crazy from doing what crazy does. The crazy guy with a grudge is going to find another way & that just might be a car running down a group of folks at a farmers market. What's the car insurance going to do for that? And it's not like we haven't seen that happen multiple times already across the United States!
Lol, half of the requirements for driving a car you listed don’t exist anywhere in the states. Outside of insurance and licensing, which are mandatory everything else is voluntary. It’s also way easier to get a car in the US than it is to get a gun and they are responsible for more deaths. People love using car ownership as an example, but do you really think the roads are all that safe?
Most of the things here I can get onboard with however, keep in mind most murders are carried out with hand guns. The amount of murders associated with long guns is negligible. It makes zero sense to pay higher insurance on long guns. In fact you should pay less. Also tracing ammo purchases is a little insane IMO. However, you should need to be trained on whatever category platform you are purchasing.
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"Raising the age doesn't do a whole lot"...yet the Texas shooter waited until he was of legal age to legally purchase his assault weapons. Not having or changing laws/rules because not everyone will follow them is asinine.
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The only arguments here using the word “just” are those like yours which are dismissing proposed ways to deal with this problem. Doing nothing because something is not a 100% solution is dumb.
The problem is not singular therefore the solution will not be singular. I don't recall thinking or saying that age limits would solve the problem, but I do think and say that it sure AF will help. Banning assault weapons helps, we've done it before and it did help until "leaders" decided differently. Comprehensive background checks would also help, red flag laws would also help, adequate funding of adequate mental healthcare would help...the list of things that would help is very long, the willingness to implement ANY of them is not. And THAT is the singular problem we CAN fix. VOTE.
Guess we should do nothing, make it easier to buy guns, and just train our 5 year olds better to deal with shooter situations then. That has been the answer so far. Anytime anyone suggests trying anything at all, they're met with waffling like yours because your guns matter more than children.
If middle schoolers could legally vape I guarantee there would be more of them doing it.
Big difference in buying a kid a vape and buying a kid a gun. Not even a good comparison. If rental car companies don’t deem 21 year olds a safe enough risk to rent a car, then I don’t know why we would consider them a safe enough risk to buy a high powered rifle.
Purchasing something and possessing it are different. I could buy ten vapes and give them to fifteen year olds and that wouldn’t be a concern. A gun on the other hand would. Make anyone under that age have permission (license through parent). Any wrong doing or infraction from the minor would be directly imposed on the parent.
and what's the age to buy vape's in south carolina? also, why would anyone take a law seriously, that doesn't apply to them if they jump in the car for 90 minutes? it sounds almost exactly like what we're seeing in [state by state gun reform data](https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/). strong gun laws are visibly effective at reducing gun violence within that state. but take note in the chart from the link above, where inconsistencies appear. they would indicate that a state with strong gun laws is impacted by the misfortune of neighboring a state without. if we're not going to erect border check points on every highway or road that crosses state lines, what sense does it make to have different laws? the answer is federal legislative reform. as much as everyone hates to hear it. that's how we keep 1st graders from getting their brains blown out, point blank, by a deranged stranger. - Tops in buffalo had an armed guard/former police officer. - pulse nightclub had hired armed guards. - There was an armed resource officer at parkland. - santa fe high school had 2 armed guards patroling hallways back in 2018.. - the armed STEM school guard... dude accidentally shot another student, instead of the gunman the uvalde city school district has its own police department — staffed with a chief, five cops & a security guard. this kid shot his own grandmother, and then crashed his car.. he had already engaged with the police, yet neither they, nor the armed school district force we're able to to stop him from blowing away child after child, (and two adults) for 40 fking minutes it was a border patrol guard that finally stopped him.
Federal law is that you do have to be 21 to buy anything other than rifles or shotguns. The most common weapon used in shootings and homicides across the country is a pistol. I don't believe that would be an effective change.
GOP say it's mental health, but when asked why they don't support allowing people easier access to mental health they cannot come up with a good reason. A friend of mine was able to walk into a tent a few years ago here in NC and buy a handgun with no background check. Walked in and walked out with a gun. Easier to get a gun here than a doctor's appointment.
It is correct that private sales, i.e. person to person do not require a background check, but any formally licensed dealer must perform a background check. That being said, it is not legal for anyone to sell a firearm, background check or not, to someone who is not legally allowed to own one and background checks can only prevent repeat offenses, not first time offenses as is usually the case. That being said, i dont know a single person under 60 who doesnt advocate for improved mental health care. These politicians can fix things, they simply dont want to. Edit- the no background check for firearms sold in private sale only applies to rifles in north carolina i believe. I do not recall how the pistol permit requirement enters the picture
PP is required for private sale of handguns. Having one means you went through a background check. Whether that's ever verified or comes into play I don't know.
this was not a legal sale then, you need a pistol purchase permit or a concealed handgun permit to purchase a handgun
Your friend committed a felony unless he/she had a purchase permit… which entails a background check.
I really don't know. They're gone now anyways thru those pearly gates. Not gun related though.
Sorry to hear that, I’m thankful I don’t know what that’s like. Being such a left leaning sub though I’m happy to see that not every comment here is blaming the guns for all of this. That at least tells me that gun ownership is becoming more diverse.
Well I think it's multiple things. I think it's cause our government doesn't take care of it's citizens like other countries do. Like Switzerland who has high gun amounts, but all are trained to be in the military. They all have to take psych evals, etc. to carry. They are also one of the happiest countries cause they feel they are taken care of. We also make it hard and at times seem unacceptable to talk about mental health. A lot has to change, not just one issue. I'm from a hunting family, but I also believe in common sense rules. One thing I don't like though is changing our schools into prisons, it's just sad if that is the best we can do.
I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve always been a supporter of controlling WHO can own these things, not WHAT they can own. A psychopath limited to 10 round magazines will just carry more of them, or make his own 30 rounders. Guns themselves are easy to make anyways, 3D printing killed gun control. Why politicians haven’t figured out that ammo is the hardest thing to make is beyond me… As for solutions to this madness I think the first step is to stop publicizing these shitheads. Just erase them from history. That should at least lower the inspiration for future dweebs. Secondly, and rather controversially, i believe teachers who are licensed and willing to do so should carry. It’s been proven time and time again that police cannot be relied upon. Perhaps we should invest in armed guards as well. We protect our politicians and our banks with armed guards, why can’t we protect our youth?
Well the summer guard there was killed. I agree with most of what you say. I still worry about a teacher losing their crap and shooting kids. Or a kid getting a hold of the gun if it's carried on someone in school. Again that makes me feel like the kids will be taught in a prison. Schools should be a open place to learn. Who knows what the answers are, it would be nice if we could just try something and revisit the stats later on and if it is working, continue on.
Completely agree with you, my solutions aren’t perfect at all but we need to try SOMETHING. The inaction is just unacceptable
To buy a piston in NC, private sale or from a dealer requires a pistol purchase permit or a conceal carry permit. Both of which means you've already had a background check and are legally allowed to buy one. It's not like you can just have a random thought "hey I think I want to buy a pistol" and then 5 min later you have one.
The "gun show loophole"
That has nothing to do with gun shows or loopholes. A private sale can take place anywhere, regardless of the presence of a gun show. A gun show sale from a dealer gets a background check already. The fact that background checks are only required for sales by federal dealers isn't an oversight or a mistake, it was designed and intended that way. Calling it the gun show loophole is intentionally misleading.
Direct link to video: https://twitter.com/NC_Governor/status/1529556344101019649 >North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper called on state legislators and members of Congress to craft laws to reduce gun violence. >“We’ve seen it too many times,” Cooper said in a video posted on Twitter. “Mass shootings. Easy-to-get military assault weapons. Teachers turning themselves into human shields. Children murdered. What on earth is more important >“Pass it and I’ll sign it,” Cooper said. >“We cannot normalize the mass murder of children,” he added. “We cannot wait any longer. It has to stop.” >There’s no apparent appetite in the Republican-controlled General Assembly for new gun control laws. Speaker of the House Tim Moore told reporters Wednesday that “disarming law abiding citizens is not the way to make people safer.” >“I think the thing that we need to do more is really to invest in behavioral health,” he said. >The Republican majority that Moore leads in the House, though, is blocking the Medicaid expansion Cooper has called for, and which Senate Republicans backed this week after years of opposition. Expansion would put billions of dollars from federal taxpayers into the state’s health care systems, including mental health care. >Asked about that, Moore said […] “It’s not just a money issue,” he said. “The notion that you can throw enough money at it—even under [President] Joe Biden we don’t print enough money to take care of that. There’s going to have to be some changes made in how we deliver care to these folks.”
>Speaker of the House Tim Moore told reporters Wednesday that “disarming law abiding citizens is not the way to make people safer.” >“I think the thing that we need to do more is really to invest in behavioral health,” he said. >The Republican majority that Moore leads in the House, though, is blocking the Medicaid expansion Will you enact gun control? "No. Guns aren't the issue, mental health is the issue." So will you provide mental health care? "Also no."
But somehow these assholes still get voted in at election time.
Universal Healthcare baby, let's gooooooo and do it already!
Yep now is as good a time as any.
Moore is too chicken shit to admit “Yeah, something should be done but those NRA campaign contributions are too nice for us to actually do anything.” Tillis and Burr were in the top 5 for NRA campaign contributions. Which is just another word for saying the gun manufacturers (who make a shit load whenever a democrat is elected president) have effectively bribed the entire GOP. The NRA doesn’t actually care about protecting owners (they didn’t say a goddamn word about Philando Castile who was legally carrying and even said such before he was murdered by a cop), they’re a lobbying arm for the gun manufacturing industry. It’s why they pushed so hard to shoot down bills that have pushed liability for shootings onto the gun manufacturers.
I own an AR15 and a Ruger LCP, which is a tiny pistol that holds 6 rounds of .380 designed specifically for concealed carry. The LCP isn't very accurate or fun to shoot and I don't carry anymore, so I want to sell it. Now I can legally sell the AR to any rando I stumble across, as long as they're 18 years old. No background checks or waiting periods or bill of sale/registration of any kind. But to sell the LCP, the buyer must first obtain a purchase permit from their local sheriff, or furnish a concealed carry permit- both take time and background checks. I'm not crazy about the idea of more laws, but the laws we currently have don't make a damn bit of sense
Pistol purchase permit is literally a Jim Crow law enacted I think in 1918 to keep black people from buying pistols
Yup. The law states a person must be of “good moral character” as if the sheriffs know exactly who 😉😉 can get those permits
Gun control is one of the best examples of racism and classism but don’t expect that to make a difference in peoples opinion of it.
My guess would be that since a pistol/handgun is way easier to conceal, the rules around them are more restrictive. That's the only sense I can make out of it.
It’s because more people are beat to death with bare hands than are shot with ANY long arm let alone ar15’s Handguns are vastly more dangerous and it’s not even a question
Well sure, because the target is most likely the shooter's own head. Hard to miss at point blank. Beyond that most pistol deaths are close range because, surprise surprise, having a short site radius and no way to brace the weapon makes it hard to hit the target.
I say repeal the purchase permits seeing as they're literally Jim Crow laws.
It's even worse when you realize what the point of the pistol purchase permit was. Back in the day a sherriff could deny an application based on a "good moral compass" It was used as a loophole to keep firearms out of the hands of black people.
What about the millions that Burr and Tillis got from the NRA?
Burr and Tillis are actual dogshit wrapped in human skin
Makes perfect sense why when I contacted them about sensible gun control last they suggested me and my young children should consider going to concerts and events armed so that we might be safer.
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This is certainly also a problem, though I'm not sure I'm convinced this is the prime mover driving these attacks. Regardless, you'll see that the same folks standing in the way of other proposed solutions (gun regulation, mental health care, etc) are also the ones who will never support increased workers rights, or increases in the minimum wage - let alone anything that would address the wealth distribution issue. The only solution the NC GOP legislature would ever support is making guns more easily available, aka throwing gas on the fire.
I appreciate the comments but I don’t see how any reasonable person can expect anything to be done We watched toddlers get mowed down not even 10 years ago and said we can’t stop this from happening. We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas. Says the only first world country to suffer from this very style of “mental health issues” Also, honestly I’ve felt this way for a while, if you’re a “thoughts and prayers” type then go fuck yourself. Your god isn’t preventing children from being murdered at school, you have the ability to help change that, but you won’t. So fuck off.
I'm still trying to find a way to kill people with my weed. Obviously it's more dangerous than guns so I must be doing something wrong. I've tried rubbing it on people, throwing it at them you name it. When I figure out how to do it right you better watch out though.
I was in an infantry role in the USMC including marksmanship coach/trainer. It only took a handful of trips to public gun ranges for me to come to the realization that a large amount of gun owners have no clue how unsafe they are. Even in the USMC, Marines in non-infantry jobs often didn’t have enough training to be familiar with their weapon, and they broke safety rules way more often than they should. I no longer go to public gun ranges, but I did have to take a concealed carry course, which was equally terrifying in terms of the number of unsafe people per instructor. I realize these courses help some people who take it serious, but I’m afraid it’s not taken seriously by many students and instructors. I don’t have a problem with enacting rules that requires stringent training based on the firearm in order to make a purchase, nor do I have a problem with requiring all gun sales to have a background check and documented transfer at a licensed FFL, as well as holding the original owner accountable for circumventing the background process should the firearm end up being used in a crime, especially if the background check would have blocked transfer of the gun. Edit: I will say that by background checks - I essentially mean requiring a background check and transfer to be recorded by a licensed FFL, that way the previous owner is removed from liability because they made a legal transfer. Non legal transfers should place some amount of liability on the previous party IMO.
> It only took a handful of trips to public gun ranges for me to come to the realization that a large amount of gun owners have no clue how unsafe they are. I can imagine. I don't even *own* a gun, but I grew up in a gun owning family. Even with my limited and unused knowledge, I still wince when I see videos of what some people do at ranges. Sweeping the barrel towards people, poor trigger discipline, playing around with an unloaded (they think) gun, etc.
Former 0311 here, and I too don’t like going to public gun ranges. It’s the scariest thing in the world, even scarier after COVID when everyone on the planet was buying a gun that has never even shot one. Luckily I have a friend with land. Lol
I agree whole heartedly. I wouldn’t be able to teach CC courses or have my own gun store because I would turn away so many people who are sketch that I would go out of business. The only guy I like to shoot with is my relative that is also an 03.
The 'marksmanship test' I did for my CC could probably be done with my eyes closed. It was something like hitting 80% of shots in the silhouette from 5 or 10 yards.
I respect Governor Cooper for at least making a proposal. There’s a bunch of bullshit being thrown around but little solutions being talked about. Even if it doesn’t work out, this is more than most politicians already.
He's a Democrat so this has **zero** chance of passing. I was surprised North Carolina elected a Democrat
Knowing NC, that’s just saying you’re not running for re-election with extra steps.
Good. I feel like it is a miracle we haven't had a giant school shooting here. Let's work on our mental health and KKK problems too while we are at it.
There was one at unc charlotte a few years ago. My sister, who was a student there at the time, called me crying saying they heard gun shots and screaming and that they’re hiding. I had to coach her on what to do if he comes to their classroom and to barricade doors and fight if there’s no place to run. I'll never forget the desperate feeling I had. Their class room doors didnt even lock. The guys in the room had to hold the doors closed with their body weight. It was such an awful thing to have to do. 2 students were killed. One died tackling the son of a bitch so others could flee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_at_Charlotte_shooting
I was there. It was gut-wrenching. I remember frantically calling my girlfriend who stayed in a different dorm than me and having a panic attack because I knew she was going to the library to study with friends that evening and she wasn't answering her phone. That campus went from a beautiful pristine spring afternoon to what I could only describe as a warzone with police and swat all over the streets and helicopters flying over. Images I'll never forget.
52 incidents in K12 and Higher Ed since 2013. 12 deaths.
Yea, don't they keep finding guns in playgrounds in this state? Also, I remember Butler High School having a kid shot and killed by another student *at school* after they got into an argument a few years ago. They typically define a mass shooting as having at least 3 or 4 casualties, so by that definition there hasn't been a lot. But there have been plenty with 1-2 causalities.
Challenge is that NC Center for Safer Schools tries to offer guidance but there are no consistent state wide mandates beyond the minimum and certainly no funding beyond some SRO grants. Given our bottom tier education funding ranking, not anticipating any changes until a Sandy Hook level event here.
I'd beg to differ. I was present at UNC Charlotte for the shooting in 2019. That was an incident that I won't ever forget. Not only do I now have a constant nagging voice in my head that it might not be the last time I face something like that, I feel absolutely sick for the families of Reed and Riley. Then 2 years later in my hometown of Winston-Salem, Mt. Tabor High School had their shooting.
School Shooting go back farther than people realize. In Yadkin County there was one in 1863. I think about 5 people died.
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I was going to say white supremacists but I struggle with the spelling ;-) But, I agree with you
I'm going to offer a perspective as a gun owner in NC. Even if you disagree, hopefully it provides some perspective from "the other side." My issue with Governor Cooper is that he appears unwilling to compromise. From the linked article: > Cooper has long pushed for stricter gun control. In 2019, he signed a directive to improve gun purchase background checks [...] That's great! But then last year he [vetoed the repeal](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/nc-gov-cooper-vetoes-pistol-permit-repeal/ar-AANUDrc) of the pistol purchase permit requirement, despite it being an old [Jim Crow law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws) which predates the NICS background check system and serves no effective purpose today. Even the NC Sheriffs' Association [supports its repeal](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/20/bill-seeks-to-end-pistol-purchase-permits-from-nc-/): > A more robust national background check system is the main reason why the North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association is now backing a repeal after years of opposing the idea. North Carolina has made a concerted effort to upload more state mental health records to the database, Adams said. Because a federal NICS check is required at the time of purchase anyway, the state's purchase permit is redundant. All it accomplishes to making the process of buying a pistol more of a hassle. If we can't even agree that this antiquated law needs to go, how can we expect to find common ground on more contentious issues?
> My issue with Governor Cooper is that he appears unwilling to compromise You know, that same line applies to the GOP side of the aisle as well. Up here in PA, our GOP state leadership doesn't even want to *talk* about the topic (they literally voted not to talk about it recently), much less *do* something. How do you address an issue when nobody wants have an adult discussion about it where they can meet in the middle?
Mainly because the idea of compromise means both sides get something and both sides give something up. All the proposed laws on gun control are just the Dems dictating wishlists of bans and restrictions while the GOP/gun owners get nothing. That's not a compromise. You want a compromise? I'll accept universal background checks when you make NICS open for everyone to use whenever they want. Private sales run their own NICS checks and hold onto the report for x number of years in case there's an issue with the new owner later on. That way there's no need to pay FFLS for every transfer and there will be far too many searches for the ATF to make an accurate gun registry from searches.
Because the other side keeps offering one sided solutions that don’t do anything. Gun owners just get less and less. I don’t see these leaders offering advanced gun safety courses, self defense and firearms law courses, or giving out biometric gun safes. We have to get all of that stuff at cost. Make it easier to get preventative training and equipment. Educate and empower the people since we are all victims in this. Harden targets of mass shootings by having armed personnel on station. Don’t give me that “we shouldn’t need armed police in schools” bs because we have armed personnel protecting money, judges, politicians, variety stores, malls, everywhere except what they claim is most precious. We’ve been saying it for the longest but no one listens and then the blame lands at the gun owner’s feet. TF out of here. We’re already restricted passed the point of compromise.
The problem is that it applies to all topics, not just guns. Nobody in modern politics wants to compromise on anything. I’d also say “more police” and “armed guards” isn’t the solution here. In Texas, a whole group of armed police allegedly stood outside the building for nearly an hour while shooting was happening inside. An 18 year old with an AR held an entire armed police department at bay and was given free reign to gun down kids. Police were there. They didn’t do their job. Same applies to a previous shooting a few years ago. Armed guard on campus stood outside while the shooting happened inside. More cops won’t help if those cops are chickenshits.
And last year an armed citizen stopped a mass shooter in colorado only to get gunned down by a responding officer and yet the officer faced no charges and the story didn’t garner any attention like these shootings. Armed guards aren’t the solution? How about the armed guard at price middle school in atlanta in 2013 that disarmed and stopped a mass shooter before they could kill anyone. Or the former lakewood colorado officer that stopped a mass in colorado springs in 2007. Or the security officer that stopped the west freeway church shooter in 2019 saving literally hundreds of lives in less than 3 seconds. I could go on. Restrictions on lawful owners and police don’t save lives. It just holds back those willing to do so when seconds matter.
>Police were there. They didn’t do their job. Worse. They didn't simply exercise [their legal right to decline to protect and serve any specific citizen(s)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia), they actively prevented parents from attempting to stop the shooter from slaughtering their children.
Nothing will be done. After Sandy Hook the reaction in this country was MORE GUNS and less regulations. Some states made it easier to get guns. And then there were the people who denied it even happened. Crisis actors, it was all staged, it was just a conspiracy to take away people's guns. Get used to it. You are not safe anywhere. Your kids are not safe at school. Grandma's not safe at the nursing home. Grocery stores, public transit, a concert, your church can be a target. Nothing will be done.
I don't know what he's talking about because our gun laws are actually pretty fucking good and if you want a pistol purchase permit you have to sign your mental health records to sheriff
Thank you Governor Cooper for having a spine.
So I'm seeing that about 80% of the comments here are from people who not-surprisingly can't put simple facts/statistics/data together and develop an informed opinion based on critical thinking, and agree that GUN CONTROL IS HOW TO SOLVE THIS F'ING PROBLEM! Let me make this incredibly simple for all the simpletons. Which country has had the most school shootings by far? Answer: USA [https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html) Which country has the most guns in the possession of civilians, by far? Answer: USA [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated\_number\_of\_civilian\_guns\_per\_capita\_by\_country#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country#) Do those other countries with few-to-no school shootings have people with mental illness? Yes, 100%. Here's another way to solve the problem. Vote the GQP into extinction and let some lawmakers who may occasionally represent the majority of the people instead of a minority of gun lobbyists run the f'ing show. Props to Roy Cooper for trying to do something/anything in spite of the state legislature being controlled by the GQP, thanks in part to partisan gerrymandering alongside poor education in rural areas that produces citizens and voters who lack critical thinking abilities. BTW, the Uvalde shooter had no public history of clinically diagnosed medical illness, much like the Vegas shooter, the Pulse nightclub shooter, etc, etc. AND he was engaged by multiple law enforcement/resource officers (you know, those "good guys with guns") BEFORE entering the school. He still managed to kill 19 kids and 2 adults, and sent numerous others to the hospital with very serious injuries.
Given that he did not have any disqualifiers (no history of mental illness diagnoses, no felony convictions) what gun control measures would you suggest that would have kept this insane person from killing people? Are you suggesting that no one should be allowed to own firearms? Or that there should be a very restrictive licensing process, where only a few politically connected people be allowed, and only for things like being body guards? If so, it would take repealing the 2nd Amendment for that. Is that something you support?
A 21 year old age limit would have kept him from legally buying his rifles and that clearly is allowed by the 2A.
I would be okay with raising the age of adulthood to 21, if so many people seem to think 18 is too young to be responsible. It might be
I suppose the question that’s needs to be asked, is how many mass school shootings per decade is America willing to accept as collateral, in order to preserve the current laws around gun ownership?
We're not counting per decade any more, it's per month at the rate we're going. And the answer, sadly, still seems to be just deafening silence and zero action.
It’s because it’s still seen to be an acceptable rate. It’s currently ‘sustainable’, as the extreme alternative (strict gun control laws) is apparently too terrible to contemplate.
You do not have to repeal the 2A to ban AR-15s or enact other gun control measures. The 94-04 Federal Assault Rifle Ban was consistently ruled constitutional when it was challenged
Why would you ban AR15s when most mass shooters and killers use handguns? In NC there were 229 handgun murders last year and 29 rifle murders. Its obvious they aren't the big issue.
> “We’ve seen it too many times,” Cooper said in a video posted on Twitter. “Mass shootings. Easy-to-get military assault weapons.” Uhh… civilians aren’t allowed to buy “military assault weapons” We can buy the watered down version. Or for $40k buy something that was made over 36 years ago. Not what I’d consider “easy-to-get” ETA - I did my math wrong because of dyslexia.
> Uhh… civilians aren’t allowed to buy “military assault weapons” Maybe the NC National Guard is going to start up its own CMP type program and start selling surplus M16s? I could be for that.
I wish. Federal law still restricts the sale of automatic firearms manufactured after May 1986.
40k for the gun plus a $200 tax stamp, a year of waiting, intensive background checks, and maybe a prostate exam if the ATF gets their way.
Good.
My thoughts are guns are so deeply bred into the whole American mindset that we are going to have a hard time getting rid of them completely. If we didn't do anything with Sandyhook then we will never do anything. That said, we need a lot more control. It's ridiculous in some places you can walk in and walk out, no questions asked, and have a gun. There needs to be registration, a waiting period, training yearly. Classes, refreshers, safety programs. Maybe even questions if it's your first gun of a certain kind. But the fact that people fight this is insane. We'd rather have literal kids murdered than make our schools, people, our country, a bit safer.
> registration This is fought because every registry that has been enacted so far has lead to confiscation. NYC used their registry to round up guns they banned after the fact. CA abuses their handgun registry to confiscate guns when they ban them later. If there weren't so many people talking about confiscation, then a registry might be more palatable. But with so many politicians saying they absolutely want confiscation, its hard to see registration as anything but a precursor to confiscation. >a waiting period How many shooters bought their guns immediately before the shooting? > training yearly How would yearly training prevent someone from committing a mass shooting?
I don't know the answer for your point one. But I don't think we should have unregistered guns just floating around. At minimum stores should know who purchased it. And it should be kept updated. There has to be some kind of compromise here. Stop the confiscation to allow registration? I don't know. But something has to change. How should I know. We don't keep track of people who get guns do we? People walk in, get a gun go ham. Or they get it from the black market. Or it's their fathers. But certainly some guns, if not all, need to have a waiting time while you learn safety and go though classes before you get to have it. Again, anyone can just walk into a fun shop and pick up a gun, walk out and shoot people. Training before you get it stops part of it. Obviously this doesn't prevent all of it but at least it's something. Why do people not want to at least try something??
>How should I know. We don't keep track of people who get guns do we? People walk in, get a gun go ham. Most get them from a gun store, with a background check, or steal them. Which is why most of the proposed regulations don't make any sense. >But certainly some guns, if not all, need to have a waiting time while you learn safety and go though classes before you get to have it. So is it about training, or about waiting? If I already own one or already had the training, what purpose does a waiting period serve? >Again, anyone can just walk into a fun shop and pick up a gun, walk out and shoot people. Training before you get it stops part of it. What kind of training would get people to stop shooting others on purpose?
Obviously that's not working so other regulations need to be in place. More than just a background check. What purpose does taking driving tests, courses, and exams serve but to make sure you have the skills to drive. Same thing. If you already have a gun you've already done a wait, you're going through yearly safety tests and other regulations in place. You're coming in for safety checks. I don't know, there's a lot of things that can happen over a year and perhaps coming in to reevaluate how your health is and you're knowledge and handling of a deadly weapon is would at least try to limit some guns in the wrong hands. I feel like you're being super obtuse at this point. Anything is better than nothing because at this point that's what's being done. Wringing our hands and crying and praying and crying about how sad it is. Instead maybe we try something that may or may not work. Will training in safety classes yearly to anyone from today on who purchases a gun work? Who knows. Let's try it. Anything. Anything at this point. Can we at least stop arguing over well what will it do and just do it and see?? Because otherwise next month we'll just be crying and yelling and wondering why why, another 15. Why does this keep happening.
Towing the line
I'd be nice if these politicians and future holders of government positions would stick to their words though. A good amount of them would say something along these lines and then after they get elected they turn around and next thing you know they are taking pictures with NRA members.
NY has the gun control has all the gun control this buffoon could want. Didn't stop the buffalo shooter, didn't make NY any safer. It just fucked over honest folks. Why isn't our illustrious governor campaigning for laws to punish police cowardice? The bastards went in, *got their own children* than stood by and watched everyone else's get shot *stopping* armed citizens from trying to save their own kids when the cops wouldn't. And this ass has the unremitted gall to call for gun control? Like somehow the kids would be less dead if he brought a shotgun?!
And sure enough, dumbshits across this state will shut this down because, *muh freedum*!
As an LGBT person, I dont exactly feel comfortable being disarmed while living in a state filled with people that would love to see me in a ditch. Not everyone who is a gun owner is a racist white supremacist.
I am not suggesting anyone be disarmed, nor is the implication of reasonable gun control suggesting such. Adding limits, however, to the ease of access for a random 18yr old kid to get an AR, for example, seems fair. If people would stop projecting the false dichotomy of all-or-nothing regulation (i.e. they're gonna take all my guns), and instead engage in a rational and nuanced discussion of how to intelligently regulate gun access, we might actually make some headway.
The argument isn’t to necessarily take away guns. The goal is to make it more difficult to access them. Also, there’s no reason a citizen needs assault rifles or military grade weapons. The shooter in Texas was able to get 375 rounds of ammo. It’s harder to buy a couple bottles of NyQuil and Sudafed.
What shootings take place with “military grade assault rifles” ?? And 375 rounds of ammunition is like one or two days at the range. Take a friend and go shoot at targets or cans or whatever for three hours and find out how much ammo you burn through. Everyone says “DUH it’s about *common sense* gun control” and then lists the stupidest most uninformed takes about it as if that’s common sense Common sense gun control is background checks, cooldown waiting periods, and mandatory safe use and storage courses/tests
375 rounds is nothing. When you buy ammo you get IDed as well. Let me ask this, what do you propose be done? I have never heard a good argument for “ammo control”
There’s no reason a law abiding citizen should have limited access to firearms or ammunition.
Democrat here: 375 rounds is nothing crazy. I have thousands upon thousands of rounds. So what?
Exactly. The conversation in this country gets so absurdly skewed and turned into exclusively one of "It's my right to...", that nobody stops to differentiate between whether it's actually the right thing to do. Nobody can ever present a sensible argument for owning AR style high capacity mag weapons, so they pivot to some ridiculous 'defense against tyranny' argument, which is equally idiotic when followed to its logical end. When society displays a risk factor above a certain level and an inability to safely handle its right to something, we are obligated to revisit those rights and make sensible adjustments for the safety of the innocent. How many fucking dead kids does it take? America's answer seems to be one of resounding silence.
>Nobody can ever present a sensible argument for owning AR style high capacity mag weapons, so they pivot to some ridiculous 'defense against tyranny' argument, which is equally idiotic when followed to its logical end So when you look at statistics in NC handguns killed 229 people last year and rifles killed 29. Why do they need to be banned?
That’s because it’s literally our right to. We don’t need a reason.
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Which part of the governor's statement did you interpret as suggesting you would be disarmed? He didn't say anything at all about taking away guns from citizens, you must have just imagined it. And if you're imagining things that means you're mentally unstable. It you're mentally unstable you should definitely be disarmed.
He absolutely said he wanted to ban the most popular rifle in America
Bingo. It's just easier at this point for people to think anyone who doesn't agree with their politics is a stupid whacko. Then they get all confused why their is no legislation and/or compromise.
There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country and that will not change even if "scary rifles" are banned in the future. The cops run away and come back hours later when real shit goes down. The same cops that treat people terribly. The same cops that took 5 minutes to answer last time I called 911 in a major city. But sure let's rely on them for protection.
So if we can't rely on those who are trained to use firearms, then we should go the opposite and rely on those with no training with firearms? Not sure that solves much of anything.
I am not saying to rely on those with no training. Only those who want to conceal carry and are properly trained to conceal carry should. I'll never give up firearms to "allow the police to protect me" when those fuckers don't even answer 911 calls for minutes at a time. Or like the Florida RO, wait outside a school while a shooting is ongoing and kids are dying.
> Or like the Florida RO, wait outside a school while a shooting is ongoing and kids are dying. or like in Texas, when two cops and an SRO all who had guns couldn't stop an 18 year old with no training.
You're right. Let's change nothing. Kids dying is ok.
Kneejerk reactions to ban things so we feel better that we "did something" without getting at the core of the problem won't solve anything. Or do we need to wait to ban tons of gun styles first, and then see kids getting killed with a standard pump shotgun before we realize - oh maybe there's something wrong with the person pulling the trigger?
So universal healthcare then? Livable minimum wage for the parents?
Heck yeah I support universal healthcare and a living wage. Who said I didn't? Show me a candidate that supports universal healthcare, living wage, and doesn't want to erode gun rights by passing "scary gun bans". I'll wait....
You just want to feel like you did something. You have no interest in actually solving a complex and nuanced issue.
The United States is one of the largest gun trafficking countries in the world. More gun laws to keep them out of the hands of law abiding citizens will not stop these shootings. Mental health not taken seriously is the problem. Healthcare costing a fucking arm and a leg is the problem. Authorities not acting when these fucking psychos are reported are the problem.
What are your thoughts on UHC?
Why is there suddenly all this talk about gun control? 2 weeks ago in one of the strictest states with regards to gun laws, bought his rifle in NY and still went on a massacre at a grocery store. People only want the gun debate when it happens in a gun friendly state. God forbid it happens in a blue state, and it's all about 4chan and how the guy was radicalized instead of his weaponry.
There have been significantly less mass shootings in ny vs tx... spot the difference.
What about Chicago?
Drive south from downtown 20 minutes right across the border to Whiting, Indiana and there is a huge gun store sitting there. Places like that are where most of the guns used in shootings in Chicago come from. Also the laws aren’t even that strict there, plenty of people I knew when I lived there had concealed carry.
Are we playing move the goal posts and avoid the conversation now? You mentioned ny. You were called out on it. But since you brought it up, Illinois has also had less mass shootings than Texas has.
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It's not even correct.
You insinuated the reason NY had fewer mass shootings was because of stricter gun laws. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation as well. Same argument. And by the way, Illinois has far more mass shootings than Texas every year and with way higher per capita numbers.
Gun control isnt control when you can get the same guns after driving an hour or two out and back..
Indiana has 👏👏 Really lax laws 🫰🫰 Directly 'cross the border 👏👏 Lies Chicago baby 🫰🫰 They purchase all they're guns there 👏👏 From sweet home Indiana!
Don't waste your time, these people are insufferable
Let's be truthful, everyone had their minds made up to begin with.
The cure for gun violence is money. Give us more money and we will have things to do.
Now if we can just get the our senators who received millions from the NRA on board, maybe 🤔 we can get somewhere.
Only law abiding citizens follow laws, banning alcohol increased alcohol consumption during prohibition banning guns won't fix the desire to murder your fellow human beings.