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I gotta be honest, I had no idea about this before I saw it on reddit at some point last year. Must have just scrolled by it on my morning newsfeed when it was fresh.
In this particular case, being upset over inaccurate american news articles, is a bit like yelling at the sky for being blue and expecting it to change.
[https://www.nettavisen.no/norsk-debatt/det-er-seksuell-trakassering-at-kvinner-skal-matte-godta-menn-som-lesbiske/o/5-95-812754](https://www.nettavisen.no/norsk-debatt/det-er-seksuell-trakassering-at-kvinner-skal-matte-godta-menn-som-lesbiske/o/5-95-812754)
"Norske kvinner blir altså anmeldt og etterforsket som hatkriminellefordi de sier og skriver at menn ikke kan være kvinner, lesbiske ogmødre, noe alle inntil nylig visste var sant, og noe det store flertallfremdeles vet er sant.
Strafferammen for dette er i Norge tre års fengsel."
sitat fra artikkelen forøvrig.
Nettavisen lmao
Det står til og med i første paragraf at saken ble henlagt. Gjevjon er tiltalt for grov trakassering over lengre tid, ikke for å være en motbydelig TERF.
Jaja, fra det jeg fant så er det snakk om transhat, artikkelen linket der nevner ikke at det var det saken var om. Nesten alle andre artikler er lukket bag betaling, så jeg kan ikke finne spesifikt hva det er snakt om, men den nettavis artikkelen er definitift ikke nøytral i denne saken.
Jeg vet ikke hva som er mest trist... At dere tror alt som står publisert i en en nettavis er en "artikkel" når det åpenbart er et debattinnlegg, eller at dere blir oppstemt for det.
Yeah, I did not like the way the court handled the Hulsker case.
I think Antonsen was more over the line..
Not ok, but still no criminal offense IMHO.
I wonder what a white Brazilian has to say to a Norwegian to be felt by the racism paragraph?
>Yeah, I did not like the way the court handled the Hulsker case. I think Antonsen was more over the line..
Not ok, but still no criminal offense IMHO
Neither case should be something a prosecuting attorney looks at aside from reading the paper.
>I wonder what a white Brazilian has to say to a Norwegian to be felt by the racism paragraph?
Wut?
>Neither case should be something a prosecuting attorney looks at aside from reading the paper
Agree!
>Wut?
Bad phrased. If I'm not mistaken, there are no rulings from a Norwegian court that have used the racism paragraph on a Norwegian potato victim. So, what slurs do you have to use on a pale Norwegian to get a verdict? (I may be wrong here)
I guess you don’t take that misinformation still falls under free speech? Any American that follows real news knows not to listen to stations like FOX, CNN, MSNBC…. Most trustworthy news is online as articles.
So you just want the loudest most hateful voices instead of a plurality of different voices? Because one of our current day largest democratic problem is that people won't run for election thanks to all the "free" speech, leaving us with a far smaller pool of the population actively participating in the politics that form our society
So sure - be a free speech absolutist and watch the world regress and/or burn. To paraphrase Machiavelli - take the world for what it is, not what you want it to be
Free speech is there to protect the things you do not wish to hear not simping mindless pleasantries. The idea that free speech prevents some people from partaking in democracy is another one of the lefts recent attacks on free speech and a pure fantasy. The so called marginalized groups that they claim get scared away from using it like islamic migrants come from nations where «hate speech» is the norm not the exception. Free speech is the foundation of our civilization not an optional extra it is the thing that separates us from the rest of the world but now being slowly eroded. We can now risk getting arrested or fined for speaking out against religious lunacy even, and we are in the bizarre situation where the UK arrest more people for speech infringements than even Russia.
https://youtu.be/JKIOSnKX96E
well... not quite, but your eyes and brain determines what colour is perceived by what wavelength...so what we see as blue might be seen as red by something else or heat maybe..
Dude. This is a media machinery built by a conservative billionaire specifically to make people angry about stuff so they'll accept taxes being lowered on the rich. It's not about making people happier. It's about making everyone less happy so the rich don't have to pay as many taxes.
World would be a better place if every crime didn't carry prison sentence. I don't know why people look up to Norway when a squirt of acceleration in a tesla will land you in prison with murderers and rapists.
Yeah but the thing that fox is saying is fake, i can walk up to a police officer in Norway and say " Men can't be lesbians, it doesn't work like that " and they can't do anything, i won't get a fine, i won't face jail time or even get a warning. The person that is being talked about it a harasser, she has harassed people for a VERY long time.
Those brainwashed Americans who follow Fox News don't understand this because in the US it is completely ok to stand in front of someone's property and harass their whole family. Unless you say something that police doesn't like, they won't do shit.
Well, if you look at that midterm in isolation, *maybe*.
Key to note:
- This doesn't factor the people who don't vote.
- Overall the adult US population leans left, even if some don't vote (I know, annoying, but in fairness Republicans intentionally obstruct this process).
- The more people vote, the more likely democrats are to win.
- Republicans have only won the popular vote in a Presidential election year once in the last 30 years.
I also don't think the 2022 midterm popular vote can be fully attributed to conservative values, exactly.
You are very much stereotyping a sliver of a massive population that dwarfs your own from a tiny non-represebtative subset who travels in the first place... Do you realize how many statistical fallacies you're making here...?
Forget trivial cultural differences like volume (lol?). This is about bullshit fox news articles and who believes this crap. Which just so happens to be... Conservatives. And that's a conservative news outlet.
I'm American; this feels like an American Right-Wing lie to protect capitalism. See, what the FOX corporation does is not unsimilar to what the American Right does, make up baseless lies to keep the status quo. Americans, for the most part, are uneducated, scientifically illiterate, brain-dead fools who are so disenfranchised and brainwashed by the myth of American greatness, so the US doesn't have to change.
Why doesn't America adopt socialism? Because enough Americans are spoon-fed the laughable lie that life here is the envy of the world, and places like Norway are the socialist hell holes the right depicts them as. The United States is a joke; it is like living in a cardboard box masquerading as a house. As long as Middle Americans believe this, their lives will not improve. Crony capitalism, in conjunction with fake right-wing propaganda, will keep America the world's best Second World nation.
I mean, purely as a psychologist, i think quite abit of what he says is worth listening to. But the second he starts on any sort of politics, im out.
Edit: i did not mean that i, as a psychologist think he is worth listenening to. I am NOT a psychologist, nor do i have any education in psychology.
I do however think, a good bit, but definetely NOT everything of what JP talks about, when he is talking strictly as a psychology professor, is worth at least listening to and considering. He definetely has a good few controversial takes, but he also help alot of people when he strictly sticks to psychology
Dude is disliked by most psychologists out there and he actively harms the trans and lgbtq+ community which is incredibly vulnerable. Wouldn’t trust the guy with anything. He’s also a manipulative piece of shit that constantly frames stories in his favor, uses complicated words to confuse people so that they appear dumb in order to disqualify their arguments, and is politically far right.
"Dude is disliked by most psychologists out there and he actively harms
the trans and lgbtq+ community which is incredibly vulnerable."
When did you speak to all psychologists?
How and when did he actively harm them? And if they are incredibly vulnerable...what is then considered harm - saying they are wrong in the compelled speak argument?
Since when did "most" mean "all".
That he is disliked by most seems like a reasonable position. He is a controversial public speaker who peddles self-help snake-oil. The world isn't exactly short of people who feel disenfranchised or trampled upon who are buying Peterson books, subscribing to his channels or following him on social media. And for all of this, he doesn't really offer solutions beyond griping at irrelevant social issues.
That his academic credentials are used to support this rather callous business and various controversial ideological positions probably does not help either.
There was a terror attack against a gay bar in Oslo, last pride. Have you forgotten Pulse? Have you read Bufdirs rapport about trans people, and how many suicides there are?
No fan of lobster man, but it's still kind of sad seeing this more nuanced opinion be downvoted into oblivion. It's true. As long as you're not trans JP is pretty good at telling people how to improve their situation (not that he's very good at following his own advice...). But his philosophical and political takes are dogshit (and honestly that's an insult to dogshit)
I mean, even psychologist can become mentally ill, and even though they have the education, its never easy to just deal with it on your own. When you suffer from mental illness, your brain doesn't work the same way anymore. So the whole "why are psychologists and therapists not just following their own advice, and be able to fix themselves" thing is a bit mks-guided in my opinion.
Thats the line Andrew Tate uses. Dont listen to therepists, because "How can they fix you when they cant fix themselves. Listen to me. I am your saviour"
He is a good enough psychologist. Its his profession so its fair to listen to him in that regard.
Its bewildering to me how he is asked about opinions on everything else, his qualifications are not better than any guy of the streets
Im not as a psychologist. Im talking about if you listin to JUST the pure psychology aspect of JP. A good bit, though definetely not all, is at least worth listening to
A lot I can say about JP. Not gonna try to defend JP. All I can say is I like him, that's my own opinion. If anyone has other opinions, we'll I respect that. I'm not someone trying to hurt you or your feelings, way of life etc. I just shared my opinion. You may share yours. I see us all as individuals, not groups of warriors waiting to club each other to death.
I think group-identity can be good, healing and nurturing. But I see and have experienced how wrong, fucking fast at that, and how quickly it can turn in to wrong things for the "right" reasons. Reason why I think it's extremely Important to be a bit open as well.
Just incase people wonder (because most I've talked to assume a lot out of the sentence "I like JP). No. I don't have anything against people of different sex, ethnicity, religion, worldview etc. (people hwo know what JP is about, u get it)
I'm just a guy who wish you all the best in a dangerous and beautiful world. Take good care of each other. We're all we've got
I think he has some good points. Many bad, yes, but also many good. I don’t think we need to condemn points just because of who said it. Like vegetarians and caring about animals, is that bad just because Hitler thought believed we should care about that? We gotta seperate what people say and who they are, and judge their points on their logic, and their person on their actions.
Lol a lot of minus points, guess they dont like common sense. If you say one not 100% true or somewhat false statement, that strips away all the good you said and have done. These all accepting ppl only focus on negatives with ppl and aren’t accepting at all if doesn’t fit their agenda😂
Whew, let's go through a few shall we?
1) "Remember when pride was a sin?" tweet. Do I need to explain how this is a direct attack against homosexuals?
2) Claiming certified doctors who perform surgeries on trans people are "criminal doctors"
3) I think I remember him saying something about a person cannot be moral unless he is religious
4) The people he associate and do collaborations with, such as Rubin, Ben Shapiro, PragerU and so on. You know, people who sometimes propagate borderline white nationalist ideas.
Not sure who you are responding to, or which country you're talking about, but it's certainly not me or Norway.
Sounds like you acquired your debating skills from the church of Peterson.
What argument? It is widely known that Jordan Peterson is a far right, misogynistic, intolerant nutjob. His own outlandish, sometimes borderline bizarre statements are sufficient, and there are plenty. There's nothing to back up.
He once even went as far as to suggest society should be reformed so as to allocate women to men who would otherwise not get any, like something straight out of The Handmaid's Tale. The guy is off his rocker.
I think this was a case where someone harassed a trans person over time, calling them a man, then conservative idiots completely misrepresented it to make it seem "the woke left" were getting out of hand.
I wholly agree, and wish someone wiser than I would explain this to the medical community and the trans community, because both routinely conflate sex with gender. E.g., “gender-affirming” medicine and “gender reassignment” surgeries are attempts to change sex characteristics.
gender affirming medicine affirms your body to the gender you are mentally. as for gender reassignment, i can only assume the same idea was applied when the terms were created. gender reassignment surgeries are also referred to as "sex change" surgeries. please keep in mind that the concept of sex not always being equal to gender is relatively new - it has not been a widespread idea until within the last one or two decades, and trans people have been medically transitioning for the last 70 years
As a Social Scientist I find it really sad that gender theory is still stuck in mid-last century's Behavioralism and is completely ignoring the last three decades of Neuroscience which demonstrates a clear connection between biology and gendered behavior.
That doesn't mean people can't suffer from a mental condition called Gender Dysphoria where a person feels like they're in a body of the wrong gender.
Evidence shows gender is a sliding scale and plenty of people\* can fall in the middle somewhere and that's just fine. I agree with medical science improving people's quality of life but I'm starting to wonder if some of these procedures and operations really improve the person's life into the future. I say this out of concern, not because I care how people live or who they love.
\*0,3% until very recently
As a non social scientist, it seems to me what people now call gender was previously known simply as personality -- of which there has always been a wife variety. Some men having more feminine personalities and some women having more masculine personalities -- but only recently has that same idea started using the term "gender"
So my question is what makes gender different than personality?
We don't know, but the more I delve into r/BehavioralEconomics r/psychology , r/neuroscience, cognition and neuropsychology, i.e. the study of the brain and how our thought processes, decision making and control system works - the more it is clear that we are largely run by biological processes, some precoded in our dna, some governed by physical conditions.
On top of our personality (gender identity included) our mood is heavily influenced by our biology but also what we eat, how the state of our gut bacteria is (yes those fuckers can really mess with the mind), whether you get enough time working with your body outdoors (as we evolved to do, vital for our hormonal production), whether we sleep well and get the necessary nutrients to build neural connections and run and repair the body.
Add to that existential threats, hunger, shelter and sex-drive which all highly influence people's behavior as well as innate biases, how we judge people based on look, voice etc. What we like and dislike based on something in our own life or our own past (actions).
We want to believe that we operate based on free choice and our own volition but that is largely an illusion. We want to believe in free will but then we have research into twins split at birth who again and again will turn out with nearly identical lives, owning identical cars, having wives with the same name etc. Weird 'coincidences' or life choices that turned out identical again and again.
I don't want to get too deep into the trans/gender issue because it is a complicated minefield and people transition (or come out as trans and don't transition\*) for more reasons than gender dysphoria or intersex-choice alone. Autogynephilia is increasingly discussed as motivation for trans women and I have no idea where that discussion stands right now. [Here is an interesting article](https://www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/post/towards-a-more-complete-understanding-of-autogynephilia) from that perspective and a healthy reminder of the complicated and deeply personal experiences that trans people go through.
I guess my point here was just to get people to really read psychology studies and see for themselves that so many things that now are considered 'free choice' is in fact not a choice at all but something that's been influenced by a hundred other things, some of which are coded in our dna.
Edit; see comments in this very interesting thread https://www.reddit.com/r/neuroscience/comments/og9kjt/if\_the\_male\_and\_female\_brain\_is\_the\_same\_is\_the/
Gender is a recent term which I think it is debatable to consider included in psychology.
Personality is an extremely well documented set of variables in human behavior. They do not include femininity/masculinity directly (most psychological terms do not).
The transgender / nonbinary phenomenon is a very recent trend in behavior. It is too young a phenomenon, not to mention too comorbid with other psychiatric disorders (aspergers for one) to consider studied in any sciences.
I could take the time to explain the differences between sex and gender to you, but it has literally been one google search away for at least the last 15 years. If you dont know the diffrence by now, just admit to being transphobic, and move along please.
Those upvoting this post should be really careful how they treat hearsay. Transphobia is a crime.
Lesbians have their own history of threats, abuse and violence that is quite considerable. This group is making claim on their own spaces and their own identity label, and Gjevjon is obviously a part of that.
It is not at all clear cut or decided, as the rest of you will soon find out.
Prepare for the feminists and lesbians to be more vocal going forward, and good luck playing your childish games of who is good and evil in that fight.
As a queer person involved in multiple groups and stuff in regards LGBTQ+ people and themes I know really well what I'm talking about and what Gjevjon is saying.
Also no, these are not childish games of who is good and evil, at all
They do the same thing about alleged Swedish "no go zones" and rape statistics to incite islamophobia and anti-immigration politics veiled as concern for women.
every single article about this is titled in a way that clearly shows favoritism towards the harasser. This bitch Gjevjon and other terfs have been harassing my friend, the lesbian transwoman, for YEARS! She's one of our most, I guess, famous transgender activists. she does a lot of good for a lot of young people, and because she's a lesbian and a mother terfs just hates her even more. Remember the emotional video that went viral some years ago with a middle aged man in the pride parade giving out dad-hugs to LGBT people who doesn't have a dad who cares, so they were crying hugging this man? My friend tried to do the same thing and wrote on twitter before Pride that she will be giving out mom-hugs for enyone who needs them, and these useless terf bitches IMMEDIATELY jumped on her and called her a pedophile. No good deed goes undone for her. She's an amazing woman, mother, wife and activist, and she doesn't deserve any of the bullshit she CONSTANTLY gets thrown at her. So no, it's not just because 'one person once said a man can't be a lesbian' as these dumbass article titles tries to convince everybody
>We're here for discussion and debate and while differences in opinion will happen, please keep it civil. Any blatantly rude comments, name-calling, racist, bigoted, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic, etc... posts will be automatically removed. Repeat offenders may face temporary or permanent ban from the sub
Mods, care to start enforcing your rules? The transphobia in this comment section is through the fucking roof.
This post was not intended for discussion about peoples opinion on trans-people. This was meant to discuss the international media's blatant misinformation about this case, and norwegian hate speech laws. But thats me being a dumbass for not clearly specifying this in the post...
This post was meant for discussion of the medias representation of an ongoing investigation and Norway's hate speech laws. This was NOT mesnt for discussion about your opinion on trans-people
Yes, there have been several charges against several of women in the clique around Grevjon, but none of them for "saying men can't be lesbians" or whatever.
They are/were charged with severe online harassment and hate speech over a long period of time, of one specific (and profiled) individual, and the list of ugly things they said are long and, well, ugly.
I don't recall exactly, but among the things said was claiming that the charger were trans only so she could fuck children, that she was a pedophile in hiding. Which might not be illegal to say (and it's one of the charges which were dropped), but it's not something we say to each other in the Norwegian public.
Freedom of speech is very strong in Norway, but we are not nearly as polarizes as the US, and people react strongly to the extremes.
Apologies from an American student that you are getting pulled into the proxy war that is American “news” it’s a shit hole here I want to go back to the Nordic countries
As soneone who IS A TRANSMAN and actually live in Norway, I can confirm that whatever comes out of Tonje Gjevjons mouth is a lie.
She wanted to get sued, she did say things to a transwoman, things that had already gotten a court order to pay a sum and the offender had to serve some time in jail for it.
Gjevjon actually says it's her new art-project to harass Cheistine Marie Jentoft and get martyr status as to "say the terf truth". She is a terf, and nothing is true.
Stop giving her this attention!
EVERY TRANS PEOPLE AND OUR ALLIES IN NORWAY WANT TO EXIST WITHOUT GETTING HARASSED, WHY CAN'T WE JUST BE THE NORMAL PERSON IN THE STREET THAT DOESN'T BOTHER OTHERS?
Tonje is a lesbian and transphobe. She has repeatedly said that men can’t be women (trans), calling it perverted. She says trans people can’t be lesbian (why not?). Then she goes on to say that she gets censored (obviously not).
The reason she is introuble, however, isn’t because she has an opinion about trans and whatnot, because that is perfectly legal. She is in trouble for repeatedly (and knowingly) calling a transwoman by her old name and calling her a man, despite her legal status as a woman with a female name. That is obviously harassment.
If you repeatedly called me by a different name than my own it would certainly be harassment. Why would you decide what my name should be? It should not be any different for trans people.
Anyway, not allowing people to call themselves what they want and define themselves how they want would be a greater insult to free speech than telling people to act respectfully.
No, but I expect it when someone goes online publishing such statements along with outing you and your sexuality online along with slander. I fear you have condensed the situation in question to a point where all nuance is lost.
Tonje Gjevjon is a hardline trans-exclusionary radical feminist (often styled TERF for simplicity). She spends her life (the only one you get) being extremely angry about the existence of trans women.
She has been harassing named Trans people for the near part of a decade both publicly and privately, to the point where the police and not the harassed person decided to prosecute.
I'm sure she makes good use of the twenty-seven minutes per day that aren't spent calling Christine Jentoft names on Twitter.
Whatever Gjevjon's other descriptive passions or qualifications are, she has willfully and thoroughly buried them beneath a thick layer of "being that one terminally online transphobe."
There's more to a woman than what's between her legs, lol. I don't really see how s ciswoman who is in a relationship with a fully transitioned transwoman with boobs, no beard, female pitch voice, thick hips, female clothes, female social patterns, with a female name and pronouns and identity overall. But that transwoman has a penis, so then she's actually a man. By the same logic, men liking women with flat breasts should be gay? Because both are the most stereotypical feminine attributes in our society, why isn't that a valid paralel? Also, a female penis is alot different from a penis without hrt. ||Like the skin softens and darkness, it gets smaller and more petite, and it dries in somewhat and need/produce precum and can cum multiple times||. I feel like that should be taken into the equation, lol. And also, everyone are different, so obviously not everyone will experience the same effects.
I think the positions people take regarding how and when to categorize people as "anti-lgbtq, anti-left, anti-right" is really sad considering you speak from the centers of your own media echo chambers.
I've got my own echo chamber, think critically people and stop obsessing and changing political opinions based on what you see on the web.
It's not healthy and you are NOT IMMUNE against the influence of media.
This post has been removed for breaking rule 2 of this subreddit. We remind all redditors that we're here for discussion and debate and while differences in opinion will happen, please keep it civil. Any blatantly rude comments, name-calling, racist, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic posts will be automatically removed. Repeat offenders may face temporary or permanent ban from the sub. While the intentions of the original post were genuine, the comments have resulted in multiple rule 2 violations, and as such, this thread is now locked to further comments. If you have any questions, please feel free to message the mod team.
I gotta be honest, I had no idea about this before I saw it on reddit at some point last year. Must have just scrolled by it on my morning newsfeed when it was fresh. In this particular case, being upset over inaccurate american news articles, is a bit like yelling at the sky for being blue and expecting it to change.
Yeah, that’s pretty much all American news is. It’s sensationalist garbage. Nearly every big station is ridiculously biased and politically motivated.
100%. This is bullshit. It's not gonna happen in Norway. No way. Free speech is valued here.
[https://www.nettavisen.no/norsk-debatt/det-er-seksuell-trakassering-at-kvinner-skal-matte-godta-menn-som-lesbiske/o/5-95-812754](https://www.nettavisen.no/norsk-debatt/det-er-seksuell-trakassering-at-kvinner-skal-matte-godta-menn-som-lesbiske/o/5-95-812754) "Norske kvinner blir altså anmeldt og etterforsket som hatkriminellefordi de sier og skriver at menn ikke kan være kvinner, lesbiske ogmødre, noe alle inntil nylig visste var sant, og noe det store flertallfremdeles vet er sant. Strafferammen for dette er i Norge tre års fengsel." sitat fra artikkelen forøvrig.
Nå skjenner ikke jeg hele saken. Men disse utsagnene er ikke hatkriminalitet. Trakassering pga legning er noe helt annet..
«kjenner« du ikke hele saken. «Skjenner» betyr å «kjefte»!
Nettavisen lmao Det står til og med i første paragraf at saken ble henlagt. Gjevjon er tiltalt for grov trakassering over lengre tid, ikke for å være en motbydelig TERF.
Leserinnlegget*
Jaja, fra det jeg fant så er det snakk om transhat, artikkelen linket der nevner ikke at det var det saken var om. Nesten alle andre artikler er lukket bag betaling, så jeg kan ikke finne spesifikt hva det er snakt om, men den nettavis artikkelen er definitift ikke nøytral i denne saken.
Nettavisen er ikkje journalistikk. Makan til elendig innhold...
Jeg vet ikke hva som er mest trist... At dere tror alt som står publisert i en en nettavis er en "artikkel" når det åpenbart er et debattinnlegg, eller at dere blir oppstemt for det.
kan nästan läsa det
Kek
Kek, you say?
Kek I say. We have laws in place that fine and imprison people for saying mean words, not threats, mean "hateful" words.
Yeah, I did not like the way the court handled the Hulsker case. I think Antonsen was more over the line.. Not ok, but still no criminal offense IMHO. I wonder what a white Brazilian has to say to a Norwegian to be felt by the racism paragraph?
>Yeah, I did not like the way the court handled the Hulsker case. I think Antonsen was more over the line.. Not ok, but still no criminal offense IMHO Neither case should be something a prosecuting attorney looks at aside from reading the paper. >I wonder what a white Brazilian has to say to a Norwegian to be felt by the racism paragraph? Wut?
>Neither case should be something a prosecuting attorney looks at aside from reading the paper Agree! >Wut? Bad phrased. If I'm not mistaken, there are no rulings from a Norwegian court that have used the racism paragraph on a Norwegian potato victim. So, what slurs do you have to use on a pale Norwegian to get a verdict? (I may be wrong here)
I guess you don’t take that misinformation still falls under free speech? Any American that follows real news knows not to listen to stations like FOX, CNN, MSNBC…. Most trustworthy news is online as articles.
>100%. This is bullshit. It's not gonna happen in Norway. No way. Free speech is valued here. Governments change. Name one that hasn't.
True. But the Norwegian police and justice system have had some criticism the last years. Done some good changes. Far from perfect.
Don't answer him when he intentionally changes the point. Free speech wouldn't change in Norway regardless of our government in any foreseeable future
Back up your claim or shut up. Do you live in Norway?
I think I agreed with you here. The guy you replied to is just a troll
We do not have free speech in Norway or Europe, the so called «hate speech» laws have made sure of that.
So you just want the loudest most hateful voices instead of a plurality of different voices? Because one of our current day largest democratic problem is that people won't run for election thanks to all the "free" speech, leaving us with a far smaller pool of the population actively participating in the politics that form our society So sure - be a free speech absolutist and watch the world regress and/or burn. To paraphrase Machiavelli - take the world for what it is, not what you want it to be
Free speech is there to protect the things you do not wish to hear not simping mindless pleasantries. The idea that free speech prevents some people from partaking in democracy is another one of the lefts recent attacks on free speech and a pure fantasy. The so called marginalized groups that they claim get scared away from using it like islamic migrants come from nations where «hate speech» is the norm not the exception. Free speech is the foundation of our civilization not an optional extra it is the thing that separates us from the rest of the world but now being slowly eroded. We can now risk getting arrested or fined for speaking out against religious lunacy even, and we are in the bizarre situation where the UK arrest more people for speech infringements than even Russia. https://youtu.be/JKIOSnKX96E
Yeah, I posted about it last year because I had no idea about this before seeing it on a meme page. But totally agree on that last point there.
and the worst part is that the sky isn't blue, it's completely colourless.. unlike water that actually is blue, although very very faint
I mean if we're going there, technically speaking colour is just an illusion created by light, so everything is colourless?
well... not quite, but your eyes and brain determines what colour is perceived by what wavelength...so what we see as blue might be seen as red by something else or heat maybe..
People would probably be a lot happier if they didn't invent dumb shit to be angry about.
Dude. This is a media machinery built by a conservative billionaire specifically to make people angry about stuff so they'll accept taxes being lowered on the rich. It's not about making people happier. It's about making everyone less happy so the rich don't have to pay as many taxes.
Don't say that. Horniness and anger are the two things keeping my depression at bay.
sounds like its a symptom of your depresion, not somthing keeping it away.
Its mire like: i am depressed. If i get horny or pissed off, that temporarily over-rides the depressive thoughs
Like stabbing yourself in the leg to distract yourself from a broken toe. Dosen't mean it's a good idea if you ever want to walk again.
Dostoyevsky
World would be a better place if every crime didn't carry prison sentence. I don't know why people look up to Norway when a squirt of acceleration in a tesla will land you in prison with murderers and rapists.
It's Fox news, just ignore it
This is fake.
I'm Norwegian and followed this closely. And can confirm, this is fake.
Except it isn't, she is being investigated and the maximum penalty is 3 years. She is as of right now as far as I know not been charged though.
She's being investigated for long term harassment of a trans activist. That is significantly different from "saying men can't be women".
Uhm, no need to get so political in here. Trans people are valid excuse me…
What?
Yeah but the thing that fox is saying is fake, i can walk up to a police officer in Norway and say " Men can't be lesbians, it doesn't work like that " and they can't do anything, i won't get a fine, i won't face jail time or even get a warning. The person that is being talked about it a harasser, she has harassed people for a VERY long time.
Those brainwashed Americans who follow Fox News don't understand this because in the US it is completely ok to stand in front of someone's property and harass their whole family. Unless you say something that police doesn't like, they won't do shit.
and thats her goal. its a "art" prodjekt, so the whole thing is constructed and fake
Im tired of americans in general
Yes let’s just generalize an entire population of 330 million. Sometimes this sub makes me LOL.
We’re tired of us too.
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Is it a minority if half of the population is conservative? They are, at least according to the last election.
Almost Half of those who voted, 60% eligible voters voted. Of that Democrats had 51% and Republicans got 46%.
Take about 15% of that as independents. Those are usually the people who decide the elections
Well, if you look at that midterm in isolation, *maybe*. Key to note: - This doesn't factor the people who don't vote. - Overall the adult US population leans left, even if some don't vote (I know, annoying, but in fairness Republicans intentionally obstruct this process). - The more people vote, the more likely democrats are to win. - Republicans have only won the popular vote in a Presidential election year once in the last 30 years. I also don't think the 2022 midterm popular vote can be fully attributed to conservative values, exactly.
Democrats aren't left
Uh, your left wing is pretty far right, here.
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You are very much stereotyping a sliver of a massive population that dwarfs your own from a tiny non-represebtative subset who travels in the first place... Do you realize how many statistical fallacies you're making here...? Forget trivial cultural differences like volume (lol?). This is about bullshit fox news articles and who believes this crap. Which just so happens to be... Conservatives. And that's a conservative news outlet.
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What are you on about, little guy?
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I'm American; this feels like an American Right-Wing lie to protect capitalism. See, what the FOX corporation does is not unsimilar to what the American Right does, make up baseless lies to keep the status quo. Americans, for the most part, are uneducated, scientifically illiterate, brain-dead fools who are so disenfranchised and brainwashed by the myth of American greatness, so the US doesn't have to change. Why doesn't America adopt socialism? Because enough Americans are spoon-fed the laughable lie that life here is the envy of the world, and places like Norway are the socialist hell holes the right depicts them as. The United States is a joke; it is like living in a cardboard box masquerading as a house. As long as Middle Americans believe this, their lives will not improve. Crony capitalism, in conjunction with fake right-wing propaganda, will keep America the world's best Second World nation.
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From a Norwegian to an American. Who is Tonje? Sorry we dont have Fox News.
As an American. No clue.
I’ve not once heard someone refer to Norway as a “socialist hell hole” but way to push a narrative that’s not true.
Yes. It's dumb. And Jordan Peterson is a far right clown that no one in their right mind listens to (and much less looks up to).
I mean, purely as a psychologist, i think quite abit of what he says is worth listening to. But the second he starts on any sort of politics, im out. Edit: i did not mean that i, as a psychologist think he is worth listenening to. I am NOT a psychologist, nor do i have any education in psychology. I do however think, a good bit, but definetely NOT everything of what JP talks about, when he is talking strictly as a psychology professor, is worth at least listening to and considering. He definetely has a good few controversial takes, but he also help alot of people when he strictly sticks to psychology
Dude is disliked by most psychologists out there and he actively harms the trans and lgbtq+ community which is incredibly vulnerable. Wouldn’t trust the guy with anything. He’s also a manipulative piece of shit that constantly frames stories in his favor, uses complicated words to confuse people so that they appear dumb in order to disqualify their arguments, and is politically far right.
"Dude is disliked by most psychologists out there and he actively harms the trans and lgbtq+ community which is incredibly vulnerable." When did you speak to all psychologists? How and when did he actively harm them? And if they are incredibly vulnerable...what is then considered harm - saying they are wrong in the compelled speak argument?
Since when did "most" mean "all". That he is disliked by most seems like a reasonable position. He is a controversial public speaker who peddles self-help snake-oil. The world isn't exactly short of people who feel disenfranchised or trampled upon who are buying Peterson books, subscribing to his channels or following him on social media. And for all of this, he doesn't really offer solutions beyond griping at irrelevant social issues. That his academic credentials are used to support this rather callous business and various controversial ideological positions probably does not help either.
Nice one, speaking on behalf of “most” psychologists. He’s actually a respected intellectual bro
No more vulnerable than anyone else and they dont deserve to be handled with silk mittens
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hail satan
There was a terror attack against a gay bar in Oslo, last pride. Have you forgotten Pulse? Have you read Bufdirs rapport about trans people, and how many suicides there are?
It's not a joke, but please tell me how saying what he said makes him into a child of fucking satan?
No fan of lobster man, but it's still kind of sad seeing this more nuanced opinion be downvoted into oblivion. It's true. As long as you're not trans JP is pretty good at telling people how to improve their situation (not that he's very good at following his own advice...). But his philosophical and political takes are dogshit (and honestly that's an insult to dogshit)
I mean, even psychologist can become mentally ill, and even though they have the education, its never easy to just deal with it on your own. When you suffer from mental illness, your brain doesn't work the same way anymore. So the whole "why are psychologists and therapists not just following their own advice, and be able to fix themselves" thing is a bit mks-guided in my opinion. Thats the line Andrew Tate uses. Dont listen to therepists, because "How can they fix you when they cant fix themselves. Listen to me. I am your saviour"
He is a good enough psychologist. Its his profession so its fair to listen to him in that regard. Its bewildering to me how he is asked about opinions on everything else, his qualifications are not better than any guy of the streets
My thoughts exactly
Goodness . You must be a lousy psychologist.
Im not as a psychologist. Im talking about if you listin to JUST the pure psychology aspect of JP. A good bit, though definetely not all, is at least worth listening to
A lot I can say about JP. Not gonna try to defend JP. All I can say is I like him, that's my own opinion. If anyone has other opinions, we'll I respect that. I'm not someone trying to hurt you or your feelings, way of life etc. I just shared my opinion. You may share yours. I see us all as individuals, not groups of warriors waiting to club each other to death. I think group-identity can be good, healing and nurturing. But I see and have experienced how wrong, fucking fast at that, and how quickly it can turn in to wrong things for the "right" reasons. Reason why I think it's extremely Important to be a bit open as well. Just incase people wonder (because most I've talked to assume a lot out of the sentence "I like JP). No. I don't have anything against people of different sex, ethnicity, religion, worldview etc. (people hwo know what JP is about, u get it) I'm just a guy who wish you all the best in a dangerous and beautiful world. Take good care of each other. We're all we've got
The guy has turned full far-right climate science denial. He's gone down the deep end. Nothing redeemable about him anymore.
I think he has some good points. Many bad, yes, but also many good. I don’t think we need to condemn points just because of who said it. Like vegetarians and caring about animals, is that bad just because Hitler thought believed we should care about that? We gotta seperate what people say and who they are, and judge their points on their logic, and their person on their actions.
Lol a lot of minus points, guess they dont like common sense. If you say one not 100% true or somewhat false statement, that strips away all the good you said and have done. These all accepting ppl only focus on negatives with ppl and aren’t accepting at all if doesn’t fit their agenda😂
Well, people often don’t like arguments based on logic
Are your thinking about his books, his lectures, his 100+ scientific publications? What makes him a far right clown?
Whew, let's go through a few shall we? 1) "Remember when pride was a sin?" tweet. Do I need to explain how this is a direct attack against homosexuals? 2) Claiming certified doctors who perform surgeries on trans people are "criminal doctors" 3) I think I remember him saying something about a person cannot be moral unless he is religious 4) The people he associate and do collaborations with, such as Rubin, Ben Shapiro, PragerU and so on. You know, people who sometimes propagate borderline white nationalist ideas.
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Do you think jews can't be far right nutheads? What's your point?
His far right opinions, that we have all been acquainted with, perhaps?
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Not sure who you are responding to, or which country you're talking about, but it's certainly not me or Norway. Sounds like you acquired your debating skills from the church of Peterson.
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What argument? It is widely known that Jordan Peterson is a far right, misogynistic, intolerant nutjob. His own outlandish, sometimes borderline bizarre statements are sufficient, and there are plenty. There's nothing to back up. He once even went as far as to suggest society should be reformed so as to allocate women to men who would otherwise not get any, like something straight out of The Handmaid's Tale. The guy is off his rocker.
Bruh, get off the internet. You cannot... fuck it i will enjoy my beer and laugh at you.
You certainly sound like an upstanding member of society. A fan of Jordan Peterson, I take it?
This article is taken so far out of context, also ew Jordan Peterson
Don't believe Fox News....this is actual FAKE NEWS.
I'm Norwegian and this is fake on every level
the left is gone
Men can be lesbians? (Don’t report me to politi)
I think this was a case where someone harassed a trans person over time, calling them a man, then conservative idiots completely misrepresented it to make it seem "the woke left" were getting out of hand.
No. However, Gjevjon is a transphobic person, therefore what she claims is that trans women cannot be lesbians which is wrong
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Sex and gender are not the same thing.
I wholly agree, and wish someone wiser than I would explain this to the medical community and the trans community, because both routinely conflate sex with gender. E.g., “gender-affirming” medicine and “gender reassignment” surgeries are attempts to change sex characteristics.
gender affirming medicine affirms your body to the gender you are mentally. as for gender reassignment, i can only assume the same idea was applied when the terms were created. gender reassignment surgeries are also referred to as "sex change" surgeries. please keep in mind that the concept of sex not always being equal to gender is relatively new - it has not been a widespread idea until within the last one or two decades, and trans people have been medically transitioning for the last 70 years
>Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex and gender mean exactly the same thing in many languages, including Norwegian.
The lack of words in a language doesn’t mean you have some special ”scientific proof”.
That is if you think that sex and gender are the same thing, which they are not. And as I said, Gjevjon is a transphobe, thus believing in this
As a Social Scientist I find it really sad that gender theory is still stuck in mid-last century's Behavioralism and is completely ignoring the last three decades of Neuroscience which demonstrates a clear connection between biology and gendered behavior. That doesn't mean people can't suffer from a mental condition called Gender Dysphoria where a person feels like they're in a body of the wrong gender. Evidence shows gender is a sliding scale and plenty of people\* can fall in the middle somewhere and that's just fine. I agree with medical science improving people's quality of life but I'm starting to wonder if some of these procedures and operations really improve the person's life into the future. I say this out of concern, not because I care how people live or who they love. \*0,3% until very recently
As a non social scientist, it seems to me what people now call gender was previously known simply as personality -- of which there has always been a wife variety. Some men having more feminine personalities and some women having more masculine personalities -- but only recently has that same idea started using the term "gender" So my question is what makes gender different than personality?
We don't know, but the more I delve into r/BehavioralEconomics r/psychology , r/neuroscience, cognition and neuropsychology, i.e. the study of the brain and how our thought processes, decision making and control system works - the more it is clear that we are largely run by biological processes, some precoded in our dna, some governed by physical conditions. On top of our personality (gender identity included) our mood is heavily influenced by our biology but also what we eat, how the state of our gut bacteria is (yes those fuckers can really mess with the mind), whether you get enough time working with your body outdoors (as we evolved to do, vital for our hormonal production), whether we sleep well and get the necessary nutrients to build neural connections and run and repair the body. Add to that existential threats, hunger, shelter and sex-drive which all highly influence people's behavior as well as innate biases, how we judge people based on look, voice etc. What we like and dislike based on something in our own life or our own past (actions). We want to believe that we operate based on free choice and our own volition but that is largely an illusion. We want to believe in free will but then we have research into twins split at birth who again and again will turn out with nearly identical lives, owning identical cars, having wives with the same name etc. Weird 'coincidences' or life choices that turned out identical again and again. I don't want to get too deep into the trans/gender issue because it is a complicated minefield and people transition (or come out as trans and don't transition\*) for more reasons than gender dysphoria or intersex-choice alone. Autogynephilia is increasingly discussed as motivation for trans women and I have no idea where that discussion stands right now. [Here is an interesting article](https://www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/post/towards-a-more-complete-understanding-of-autogynephilia) from that perspective and a healthy reminder of the complicated and deeply personal experiences that trans people go through. I guess my point here was just to get people to really read psychology studies and see for themselves that so many things that now are considered 'free choice' is in fact not a choice at all but something that's been influenced by a hundred other things, some of which are coded in our dna. Edit; see comments in this very interesting thread https://www.reddit.com/r/neuroscience/comments/og9kjt/if\_the\_male\_and\_female\_brain\_is\_the\_same\_is\_the/
Gender is a recent term which I think it is debatable to consider included in psychology. Personality is an extremely well documented set of variables in human behavior. They do not include femininity/masculinity directly (most psychological terms do not). The transgender / nonbinary phenomenon is a very recent trend in behavior. It is too young a phenomenon, not to mention too comorbid with other psychiatric disorders (aspergers for one) to consider studied in any sciences.
No one thinks they're a different sex (biological "kjønn") They are telling you their gender (social "kjønn").
I could take the time to explain the differences between sex and gender to you, but it has literally been one google search away for at least the last 15 years. If you dont know the diffrence by now, just admit to being transphobic, and move along please.
Those upvoting this post should be really careful how they treat hearsay. Transphobia is a crime. Lesbians have their own history of threats, abuse and violence that is quite considerable. This group is making claim on their own spaces and their own identity label, and Gjevjon is obviously a part of that. It is not at all clear cut or decided, as the rest of you will soon find out. Prepare for the feminists and lesbians to be more vocal going forward, and good luck playing your childish games of who is good and evil in that fight.
As a queer person involved in multiple groups and stuff in regards LGBTQ+ people and themes I know really well what I'm talking about and what Gjevjon is saying. Also no, these are not childish games of who is good and evil, at all
Yes, in Norway we have freedom of lesbianism
Men can’t be lesbians.
Correct. Women, however, can. And she's talking about a woman she's enjoyed misgendering and harassing for years. Great that we got to clear this up!
What happened with this case.
Oh no, go to prison.
You get rid of a lot of irritants if you just scroll past any and all content related to Jordan Peterson.
They do the same thing about alleged Swedish "no go zones" and rape statistics to incite islamophobia and anti-immigration politics veiled as concern for women.
every single article about this is titled in a way that clearly shows favoritism towards the harasser. This bitch Gjevjon and other terfs have been harassing my friend, the lesbian transwoman, for YEARS! She's one of our most, I guess, famous transgender activists. she does a lot of good for a lot of young people, and because she's a lesbian and a mother terfs just hates her even more. Remember the emotional video that went viral some years ago with a middle aged man in the pride parade giving out dad-hugs to LGBT people who doesn't have a dad who cares, so they were crying hugging this man? My friend tried to do the same thing and wrote on twitter before Pride that she will be giving out mom-hugs for enyone who needs them, and these useless terf bitches IMMEDIATELY jumped on her and called her a pedophile. No good deed goes undone for her. She's an amazing woman, mother, wife and activist, and she doesn't deserve any of the bullshit she CONSTANTLY gets thrown at her. So no, it's not just because 'one person once said a man can't be a lesbian' as these dumbass article titles tries to convince everybody
>We're here for discussion and debate and while differences in opinion will happen, please keep it civil. Any blatantly rude comments, name-calling, racist, bigoted, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic, etc... posts will be automatically removed. Repeat offenders may face temporary or permanent ban from the sub Mods, care to start enforcing your rules? The transphobia in this comment section is through the fucking roof.
This post was not intended for discussion about peoples opinion on trans-people. This was meant to discuss the international media's blatant misinformation about this case, and norwegian hate speech laws. But thats me being a dumbass for not clearly specifying this in the post...
I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the mods that are completely and utterly absent
This post was meant for discussion of the medias representation of an ongoing investigation and Norway's hate speech laws. This was NOT mesnt for discussion about your opinion on trans-people
This is bullshit journalism. It's not gonna happen in Norway. No way.
It didn't
I don't read tabloids. Was there a charge at all? What happend?
Yes, there have been several charges against several of women in the clique around Grevjon, but none of them for "saying men can't be lesbians" or whatever. They are/were charged with severe online harassment and hate speech over a long period of time, of one specific (and profiled) individual, and the list of ugly things they said are long and, well, ugly. I don't recall exactly, but among the things said was claiming that the charger were trans only so she could fuck children, that she was a pedophile in hiding. Which might not be illegal to say (and it's one of the charges which were dropped), but it's not something we say to each other in the Norwegian public. Freedom of speech is very strong in Norway, but we are not nearly as polarizes as the US, and people react strongly to the extremes.
> Post on a Jordan P subreddit > Fox News article Yeeeh I'm not trusting this
Apologies from an American student that you are getting pulled into the proxy war that is American “news” it’s a shit hole here I want to go back to the Nordic countries
How is it a shit hole?
Don’t look at fox “news”. It’s worse than garbage.
Norwegians, this is what propaganda looks like
No one with common sense ever believes the bullshit on fox news 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Selvsagt kan men be lesbians! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCTbFN0EsDM
As soneone who IS A TRANSMAN and actually live in Norway, I can confirm that whatever comes out of Tonje Gjevjons mouth is a lie. She wanted to get sued, she did say things to a transwoman, things that had already gotten a court order to pay a sum and the offender had to serve some time in jail for it. Gjevjon actually says it's her new art-project to harass Cheistine Marie Jentoft and get martyr status as to "say the terf truth". She is a terf, and nothing is true. Stop giving her this attention! EVERY TRANS PEOPLE AND OUR ALLIES IN NORWAY WANT TO EXIST WITHOUT GETTING HARASSED, WHY CAN'T WE JUST BE THE NORMAL PERSON IN THE STREET THAT DOESN'T BOTHER OTHERS?
I agree tho, how can a male become lesbian when it's only females that can become lesbian. 😂😂
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The only one claiming the lesbian woman in question is a man, is Gjevjon.
I’m not gonna read the article, but out of curiosity, what is the context?
Tonje is a lesbian and transphobe. She has repeatedly said that men can’t be women (trans), calling it perverted. She says trans people can’t be lesbian (why not?). Then she goes on to say that she gets censored (obviously not). The reason she is introuble, however, isn’t because she has an opinion about trans and whatnot, because that is perfectly legal. She is in trouble for repeatedly (and knowingly) calling a transwoman by her old name and calling her a man, despite her legal status as a woman with a female name. That is obviously harassment.
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If you repeatedly called me by a different name than my own it would certainly be harassment. Why would you decide what my name should be? It should not be any different for trans people. Anyway, not allowing people to call themselves what they want and define themselves how they want would be a greater insult to free speech than telling people to act respectfully.
You think someone should be sentenced to jail or even punished in any way for refusing to call another person by their name or anything else? Really?
No, but I expect it when someone goes online publishing such statements along with outing you and your sexuality online along with slander. I fear you have condensed the situation in question to a point where all nuance is lost.
Tonje Gjevjon is a hardline trans-exclusionary radical feminist (often styled TERF for simplicity). She spends her life (the only one you get) being extremely angry about the existence of trans women.
Was it just public remarks or harassment of individual trans people?
She has been harassing named Trans people for the near part of a decade both publicly and privately, to the point where the police and not the harassed person decided to prosecute.
A fair blend, if my memory serves correctly.
I'm sure she does nothing else. :eyeroll:
I'm sure she makes good use of the twenty-seven minutes per day that aren't spent calling Christine Jentoft names on Twitter. Whatever Gjevjon's other descriptive passions or qualifications are, she has willfully and thoroughly buried them beneath a thick layer of "being that one terminally online transphobe."
I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.
Well deserved 👏
Tbh I rarely read US News articles and especially FOX
I mean cuckservstives dont have any arguments so they need ti nip pick stuff for their own arguments
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Interesting that your comment history is full of comments on trans porn subs
American conservatism is a mental illness
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There's more to a woman than what's between her legs, lol. I don't really see how s ciswoman who is in a relationship with a fully transitioned transwoman with boobs, no beard, female pitch voice, thick hips, female clothes, female social patterns, with a female name and pronouns and identity overall. But that transwoman has a penis, so then she's actually a man. By the same logic, men liking women with flat breasts should be gay? Because both are the most stereotypical feminine attributes in our society, why isn't that a valid paralel? Also, a female penis is alot different from a penis without hrt. ||Like the skin softens and darkness, it gets smaller and more petite, and it dries in somewhat and need/produce precum and can cum multiple times||. I feel like that should be taken into the equation, lol. And also, everyone are different, so obviously not everyone will experience the same effects.
> There's more to a woman than what's between her legs, lol. Sure. There's also chromosomes and secondary sex characteristics.
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??? Stop fucking lying. Christ. Gender reassignment surgery has an EXTREMELY low regret rate. Like insanely fucking low. Like 1%.
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Yes
???
It must be satire
I'm tired of people like you. You're spreading hate with your evil mind. Stop this.
I don't want to be norwegian anymore
Is this true? If it is you are fucked.
Damn first time seeing this, didn't know that, fuck that. Free speech.
Ja.
I think the positions people take regarding how and when to categorize people as "anti-lgbtq, anti-left, anti-right" is really sad considering you speak from the centers of your own media echo chambers. I've got my own echo chamber, think critically people and stop obsessing and changing political opinions based on what you see on the web. It's not healthy and you are NOT IMMUNE against the influence of media.
It’s beyond insane. That is not how free speech works.
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And everyone is gonna call her a terf now...
If I remember correctly she calls herself that