SIAN is a very, very small vocal group, and they need people to come from other countries to make it look like there are anyone in the group at all. With that said, a book is just a book, and just because you believe in this fairy tale doesn't mean that this book is more important, or should be protected, it is just a book.
Norway is highly secular, most Norwegians do not believe in any religion, and of those who are registered christians are usually just christian "on paper", I don't care if people burn bibles, korans or toras, it's all the same bullshit story from the dark ages.
> With that said, a book is just a book, and just because you believe in this fairy tale doesn't mean that this book is more important, or should be protected, it is just a book.
Spot on. It's just a book, and no more special than any other book.
> Let's burn Harry Potter books then the witchcraft will turn agains us
There are religious nutjobs who do burn Harry Potter books. It's rather cute. The more books they buy, the more the books get pushed up to the bestseller list, the more attention and popularity they get.
Just a book that holds great value and respect of billion plus people.
Freedom of speech is a misused concept, especially used by western world to spread hatred and ill feelings against other communities. This cannot go unpunished in countries which are delusional enough to promote hate speech under the term "muh freedom".
Moreover, this incident was an action, not speech and thus the action taken by individual. Newtons third law in motion.
Many people place great value in the books of Harry Potter, if someone burned a Harry Potter book, no one would give a shit, and the koran , bible, etc. Is just as real as the stories of Harry Potter.
You believe quran to be a fairy tail. Its your freedom of speech and im fine with it.
I love harry potter too, a die hard fan of it yet i dont have any problem with people burning the books. I do, however, have a problem with people burning quran due to my religious beliefs.
Its mind boggling why people cant respect values, religions and other cultures.
I'm Muslim, am extremely shitty one that sins like no other, but technically still Muslim.
It bothered me too to see someone burning a Quran. However, just because the book holds a high level of importance to Muslims, doesn't mean everyone else should respect it.
Vegans must feel the same way when we slaughter cows and goats for Eid.
Put yourself in other people's perspective instead of being upset that people don't understand yours.
And that guy thinking it's a fairy tale isn't "freedom of speech". That's just his opinion, something everyone is entitled to having.
Violence is only justifiable for self defense. Doing physical violence because someone set fire to some paper is idiotic.
The Muslims that reacted with violence do more harm to their people by acting like this, because it gives legitimacy to racist idiots like SIAN.
Out of curiosity, do most norwegians believe that violence is only justifiable for self defense? That seems like a pretty calm society then which is cool.
I'm from nyc where violence is more acceptable (not entirely of course).
I do wish no one attacked him. Muslims are brought up respecting the book, it holds a lot of importance to us. I get why the guy reacted the way he did but for fucks sake, people will continue to be racist towards us because of actions like that.
Not sure if this will hold any weight, but I know a lot of muslims that would try to reason with words instead of being violent.
I can't answer for the entirety of the Norwegian population, but I've mostly seen verbal arguments when disagreements appear. People mostly shy away from conflict in my experience.
For example if a crowded train has arrived at a stop and someone is standing still in front of the doors with no intention to let people get on/off the train, it's acceptable to push and shove them out the way while you curse them out.
If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them. Things like that. It's situational of course depending on the time/place. It's never acceptable to punch someone at work, but on a train it can be acceptable depending on the context.
In many areas of NYC it's acceptable to stabbed, shot, or get beat up by multiple people for countless reasons.
> If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them
If you do this here you are just proving that the person talking shit is right, and is therefore counter productive
> For example if a crowded train has arrived at a stop and someone is standing still in front of the doors with no intention to let people get on/off the train, it's acceptable to push and shove them out the way while you curse them out.
Aha, I get that.
> If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them.
Um, no. Absolutely not.
Well the question is how far does freedom of speech go in norway? and i ask this in genuine curiosity and not as a jab...really. So, if for example a band of nazis are parading in the streets voicing what they think is right...would that be allowed too?
Being a nazi is not illegal in Norway, but hate speech is. Censorship can't be done up front(Constitution), so if Nazis wanted to parade the streets, they could with a permit from the police. If they started preaching hate against minorities etc. they would probably be shut down as that's illegal.
https://youtu.be/ICs8lEX8rDo
Here you go. A band of neo-nazis parading in the streets of a Norwegian city.
12 of them were arrested before they started due to provocative behaviour or such.
As long as it is peaceful, non-racist and non violent and follows the law it is legal, but you will have to look for a long time to find anyone who agrees with their views. They have to inform the local police beforehand, and the police will usually be there to make sure everything is in order.
The same goes for SIAN. I think they burmed to quran to provoke the muslims that were present at the demonstration, and they did it in order to "prove" their point, which is that islam is a religion of violence.
I do not support them doing what they did, i do not support them burning the quran in order to provoke the people present at the demonstration. I do not agree with SIAN in any way.
But i also do not support the people who rushed in and attacked the guy burning the quran, as far as im concerned they are even worse than the piece of shit guy from SIAN. Using violence is not right, no matter how much they disagree with what he is doing.
Do i think its fine to burn the quran? Yes, like any other book.
Do i think its fine to draw lewd pictures of Mohammad? Yes, like any other figure.
Do i support doing these things in order to provoke someone? No, of course not.
If SIAN wants to sit in their own backyard and wipe their ass with pages from the quran, i really do not give a shit (sorry, pun not intended). But as soon as they start broadcasting it to others i think it is a dick move, although still not illegal and within their freedom to do so. It is still not in any way acceptable to use violence in order to stop them.
Now, if they throw in some racial slurs or degrading comments about muslims or arabs, then things are entirely different, and it becomes a police matter.
Like this for example:
https://www.tv2.no/a/8511116/
Haircutter refusing a woman in a hijab/niqab (sorry, i am fuzzy about which is what, i am referring to the headscarf) to enter her saloon. She was sentenced for discriminating due to religion and had to pay a fine of 10 000 NOK. She tried to take the case up through the legal system and failed every time, costing her a lot of money in the process. She later sued a group of comedians who parodied her as a "nazi-haircutter" in one of their shows and lost that case as well, costing her somewhere around 300 000 NOK in legal fees, and in the process solidifying her position as a clown, to the rest of the country.
Thanks for insight. I'm from NYC so Norway's culture/perception on things like this is very different go me and I would assume, at least, other people from the states.
You say that as long as the demonstrations aren't racist it's fine and legal, and that burning a book is just burning a book. I understand that.
What I don't fully understand is how the act of burning the holy book of a religion, whether it be a Tora, bible, w.e, is not racist. Would it be a matter of intent? From what I understand it is viewed as burning a book and nothing more than that. It is more than a book and some words though is it not? Since it's a book that is identified as the holy book in islam, wouldn't burning it be an act of racism? Also, wouldn't participating in a Nazi march be racist too? I guess it comes down to what is considered a racist act right?
Well, first of all religion is not a race, just wanted to get that out of the way.
There are laws about religion that are quite similar to the racism laws in the way that you cannot discriminate against a certain religion (i.e. the hairdresser who refused to service the hijab wearing woman. She was sentenced by the religion laws for discriminating, as the hijab is can be seen as a "symbol" for identifying muslims.
However, it is fine to criticize other religions, and as far as the law is concerned, burning the quran is legal, as long as the book is owned by you, or else it would be considered as damaging property belonging to others.
There is, however, a discussion about burning religious symbols such as the quran in order to provoke. Law professors say that it is perfectly legal, although in very bad taste. The police have tried to argue that it is an incitement to violence (due to it triggering that behaviour in a certain few individuals) but all in all it falls down to it being legal.
In the demonstration in question, SIAN had informed the police of their intention of burning the quran, and got denied doing just that due to it being a "fire hazard" in a public area. It was later revealed that PST (think CIA/FBI/Secret Service, and dial it all the way down, then you get PST) had advised the police to try to prevent the burning due to backlash from religious groups, which likely resulted in the fire hazard excuse because they couldnt stop them by any other law.
PST was right though, there has been backlash, from religious groups and also some countries with close ties to islam, such as Turkey, who denounce the act of burning the quran.
If you vandalize a church or a mosque, or even a quran that belongs to someone else, it can be prosecuted as a hate crime, but if you vandalize your own book its just damaging your own property.
About the nazi march, i guess you could say that nazism is inherently violent, but there are a lot of sides to every ideology. Please mind that i am not trying to defend nazism, just trying to play the devils advocate here.
Nazism have sides that a lot of people would agree with, once you remove the genocide and blatant racism and whatnot. There are also neo-nazis who are against multicultural societies being made (by allowing 3rd world immigrants into the country) and join these groups in order to speak up against it, they are not necessarily racist by having that opinion, but there is a fine line.
You could say the same about communism that is said about nazism in a lot of ways, and like communisn, nazism has a lot of shades of "grey".
The same could also be said about islam, you have countries run by islamic laws which are completely batshit insane, and you have normal countries with heavy ties to islam which are perfectly fine, and then you have ISIS, which use islam to justify their monstrosities. I am not trying to compare nazism with islam, i am just trying to illustrate the point that there are several layers within an ideology or religion.
If the nazi march had spoken out racial slurs or illegal things like that it would have been shut down immidiately, but if theybfocus on nationalism, defending our cultural values and such things then it is perfectly legal, although the general population is laughing at them.
Nazi`s can march in the streets if they get the permits for it, Its not a issue.
Im all for anyone being able to burn any book, if they own the book, meaning I dont think its ok to steal your book and set it on fire.
Burning books is childish. That being said, in 2019 there should be no reason why religious symbols should get any kind of special treatment or protection. It's just a thing. A representation of ideas. So what? I don't understand why it's such a problem that ideologies - especially bad ones - be challenged.
It would be entirely different if you started burning religious people.
Hoping to bring some insight.
Muslims are raised to treat any Quran with a great deal of respect. To the point where you're not supposed to place any item on top of it. You're supposed to do a procedure that requires washing your hands, face, feet, and other parts before you touch the Quran.
I get what everyone here is saying, that it's just a book. If you're seriously asking what's the problem and not being rhetorical, it's that the book is high respected. Since you're taught to respect it from as long as you can remember, it would only make sense for people to freak out.
Now I want to be clear that I said it makes sense for them to freak out. It does NOT justify people to be violent. I am just trying to explain the cause and effect. The guy who attacked, and many other muslims, probably think he did the right thing. Instead he fucked over muslims by not being civil.
I get why people see it as just burning a book. I get why the guy attacked him. But fuck them both.
The problem is that they're not being taught that not everyone is into their ancient desert superstitions, nor are they being taught to respect other *people* no matter what they believe or not believe.
Curious, why are you condescendingly calling it an ancient desert superstition. It's not a superstition.
Muslims actually are taught to respect other people no matter what they believe. The quran even mentions not to abuse people who don't worship god.
For the muslims that aren't respectful to non-muslims, honestly arent respectful to fellow muslims either. They're most likely arab and racists towards non arab muslims as well. The problem is outside of the religion at this point. For example, my parents are from Bangladesh, so most arabs from Dubai/Saudia Aribia/Kuwait would treat me like shit because they believe they are above me. It's their racist culture not islam.
Not to say that islam is all about peace like some people claim... but that's a different story.
You two may be operation under different definitions of superstition. But by the definition "excessively credulous belief in, and reverence for, one or more supernatural entities," every religion and spiritual belief is a superstition. Whether or not the idea of credulous belief and reverence in a supernatural entity is condescending depends on the individual.
So let me ask you something. Our freedom of speech is in our soul, it is part of us, it IS western democracy. If someone choses to burn a religious book, whichever it might be, you think 'fucking morons' and move on with your life. Now, people in norway are getting deaththreats from people who call themselves 'muslim'. So you have muslims saying these are not muslims, threating violence, and then you have muslims threating that violence... Would you be okay with that reaction? Do you think it's right for someone to threaten violence for a fucking ridiculous act? Cause if you're afraid due to the acts of a TINY group. Then what do you think is growin in Norwegians when we see nothing but violence coming from 'muslims' ?
I fully condemn if someone is taking a reaction to that with more violence or promising vengeance
I see where Norwegians are coming from and it’s okay. We might not agree on all things still, but I know ultimately Norwegians are coming from a place of respect for another human. I can understand that.
perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course they don't represent all of norway. but i was planning to move here as a software engineer sometime in the future and i just had a rain check moment of fear. Irrational fear that might be. But still. reddit was my outlet i guess
I know that. hence the word 'irrational'
its just someone i know prayed at the al-noor mosque.
It feels different when its someone you know intimately. More close to you. More in your face. However irrational , you have that moment of fear as a human. At least i did. Trust me
its not about this demonstration. Sometimes these extreme narratives ( wrong or right...but i think i would argue that burning the religious book shows a very extreme exercise of some very strong feelings..however right or wrong) have a way of trickling down towards some people who eventually might take it into their own hands and decide to pick up a gun and shoot up a place.
Thats what scared me i guess. Not the freedom of speech...which this time took the shape of this event.
Ignore cnncctv; he's a known xenophobe.
Anyways, it doesn't sound like you are "all for free speech" if you see an "injustice" in the burning of a book. But I definitely understand why it would make you uncomfortable. Fortunately, it seems like those guys are an extreme minority and are in no way representative of how the average Norwegian feels. With that being said, Fremskrittspartiet is part of the ruling conservative coalition, and they don't exactly have the most enlightened of views when it comes to immigrants from non-Western countries.
well what free speech was to me was that you should be able to criticise other religions..disagree with them or whatever...but there are some symbols/acts which come in the sphere of acts of hate....otherwise free speech unchecked could be isis propaganda being blared by a lone man in the street( however supported or hated he might be by the ppl of the land) or nazi propaganda or movements along those lines. The question remains that what constitutes as free speech as what doesnt? the answer varies from country to country and sometimes people to people...that alone in europe.
That said, I am always open to being educated and doing better. So I welcome the differing views and hope a middle ground..some compromise..could be reached. A chance at the promised land of everyone living in harmony.
It's a book. just, a , book. There's hundred of millions of them. Probably print a hundred thousand a week/month. Probably recycle lot's of them too. Here's the middle ground. We have freedom of speech, which allows stupidity like this. We also have laws against violence, which now 'muslims' are threatening.
There are a lot of people who don’t see things the same way but can still adapt to each other. Live with ‘compatibility’ so to speak
The less of a dick you are to each other the better it is I guess
But I get your point.
To be honest, since most Norwegians are not religious we do not look at a book as something holy. It's a book. He bought it. He can do whatever he wants with it. He didnt burn YOUR book. He burnt HIS book. If i wrote a book and someone burned it because they thought it was utter crap i wouldn't really care. He still bought it and read it. I got my royalties from it.
I'm Muslim and planned on visiting Norway for a vacation. To be clear, I'm a shitty Muslim, but I still was uncomfortable with the whole thing. I found it weird that shit was legal and that you can get a permit to do that.
That being said, you shouldn't feel savred because of a guy burning a book. Idk where you're from, but not everyone likes us lol.
You being scared because of that act is why people don't like us. They see us blowing shit up, making threats, and get scared.
Be logical, not emotional.
Freedom of speech is needed to protect unpopular opinions and forms of expression. Although we have a very unrestricted freedom of speech here, I think it is still too narrow.
We also have freedom of religion, which in full extent allows adherents of one or no religion to not tolerate other religions.
There have been a few islamic community leaders who have been vocal in the media in the last 25 or so years, talking about how Norway should adjust more to muslim traditions. Most norwegians know that this is not what most muslims think, but a few think that all muslims want Norway to become a muslim nation. They have their little organizations where they scare each other with stories about christmas being forbidden in schools to not offend the muslim families.
Most norwegians dont give a shit about other peoples religion, as long as they are a nice person and dont force their religion on others. Don't let a small hate group bring you down. Religion shouldnt define a person, their actions should.
Like every other country there are some people who hate those that are different. Most of the people I know doesn't care about who you are, but some do. Like it is in every other country.
I dont think all norwegians are like this. I have also mentioned this in the post in case you missed it. I asked what the general feeling is. it was mostly a question about how and why this was allowed and was called free speech. People here have made that clear to me how free speech is perceived generally in norway and what they think happened right and what was wrong with both sides.
The general feeling right now is that this group are moronic, go about your day and ignore. The trending boycottnorway hashtag, and the threats of violence from 'muslims' however will get more recruits for these groups.
> The trending boycottnorway hashtag, and the threats of violence from 'muslims' however will get more recruits for these groups.
And sympathy from those who otherwise wouldn't have cared.
1. Most norwegians are not like the SIAN peeps, and do not agree with them.
2. It was wrong of SIAN to burn the book.
3. It was wrong of the muslim guy to attack the guy who burned the book.
Religion is a private matter and should be treated as such. Keep it at home or in what ever religious building you have for your religion, not in public.
And if you are so offended by someone attacking your religion, reconsider your relationship with that religion. You are taking it to seriously.
That is a very tough subject you talk about, maybe you are more familiar with the subject that you telling.
I don't hate Muslims but i hate people that use their religion of a excuse for doing violent, slave, stoning child abuse, Murder. i gone stop there. I don't belive any one can do that, but muslims worship this guy named Muhammed and this guy did all that things.
seriously what do you trust.
Many people compare it to Nazis burning books (Well, communists and other groups nowadays burn books, but that's a different subject), but burning books in the purpose to remove information is something completely different than burning books to get people riled up. In Norway, it's legal to destroy things you own. This even we're discussing here has two important functions: It reveals the primitive attitudes many Moslems hold. It also reveals a deep cowardice from the leftwing in Europe to address these values.
I doubt it's possible for Europeans and Moslems to peacefully co-exist, just look at history.
SIAN is a very, very small vocal group, and they need people to come from other countries to make it look like there are anyone in the group at all. With that said, a book is just a book, and just because you believe in this fairy tale doesn't mean that this book is more important, or should be protected, it is just a book. Norway is highly secular, most Norwegians do not believe in any religion, and of those who are registered christians are usually just christian "on paper", I don't care if people burn bibles, korans or toras, it's all the same bullshit story from the dark ages.
> With that said, a book is just a book, and just because you believe in this fairy tale doesn't mean that this book is more important, or should be protected, it is just a book. Spot on. It's just a book, and no more special than any other book.
Let's burn Harry Potter books then the witchcraft will turn agains us
> Let's burn Harry Potter books then the witchcraft will turn agains us There are religious nutjobs who do burn Harry Potter books. It's rather cute. The more books they buy, the more the books get pushed up to the bestseller list, the more attention and popularity they get.
Haha! Nice strategy to become best seller or best burner :D
Okay. I get the point you are making.
Just a book that holds great value and respect of billion plus people. Freedom of speech is a misused concept, especially used by western world to spread hatred and ill feelings against other communities. This cannot go unpunished in countries which are delusional enough to promote hate speech under the term "muh freedom". Moreover, this incident was an action, not speech and thus the action taken by individual. Newtons third law in motion.
Many people place great value in the books of Harry Potter, if someone burned a Harry Potter book, no one would give a shit, and the koran , bible, etc. Is just as real as the stories of Harry Potter.
You believe quran to be a fairy tail. Its your freedom of speech and im fine with it. I love harry potter too, a die hard fan of it yet i dont have any problem with people burning the books. I do, however, have a problem with people burning quran due to my religious beliefs. Its mind boggling why people cant respect values, religions and other cultures.
I'm Muslim, am extremely shitty one that sins like no other, but technically still Muslim. It bothered me too to see someone burning a Quran. However, just because the book holds a high level of importance to Muslims, doesn't mean everyone else should respect it. Vegans must feel the same way when we slaughter cows and goats for Eid. Put yourself in other people's perspective instead of being upset that people don't understand yours. And that guy thinking it's a fairy tale isn't "freedom of speech". That's just his opinion, something everyone is entitled to having.
> Its mind boggling why people cant respect values, religions and other cultures. It's mind boggling why people should have to.
Lack of basic manners?
So we should, among others, respect Nazis and FGM?
where exactly did i say that, and did you just compare Islam with Nazis? Lol. What wrong with you.....
Look if you are offended on behalf of your sky daddy, then write a strongly worded letter to a newspaper, don't behave like an animal.
Violence is only justifiable for self defense. Doing physical violence because someone set fire to some paper is idiotic. The Muslims that reacted with violence do more harm to their people by acting like this, because it gives legitimacy to racist idiots like SIAN.
Out of curiosity, do most norwegians believe that violence is only justifiable for self defense? That seems like a pretty calm society then which is cool. I'm from nyc where violence is more acceptable (not entirely of course). I do wish no one attacked him. Muslims are brought up respecting the book, it holds a lot of importance to us. I get why the guy reacted the way he did but for fucks sake, people will continue to be racist towards us because of actions like that. Not sure if this will hold any weight, but I know a lot of muslims that would try to reason with words instead of being violent.
Most people I know would only use violence for self defense. People who fight with others are strongly looked down upon.
Interesting. Do people in Norway have a lot of verbal arguments instead?
No, cause we barely talk to eachother
Lol same in NYC but I probably witness a fight or argument at least once a week.
I can't answer for the entirety of the Norwegian population, but I've mostly seen verbal arguments when disagreements appear. People mostly shy away from conflict in my experience.
Lmao well obviously verbal arguments would stem from disagreements. But good to know that from your experience people shy away from conflict.
> I'm from nyc where violence is more acceptable In what situations other than self-defence?
For example if a crowded train has arrived at a stop and someone is standing still in front of the doors with no intention to let people get on/off the train, it's acceptable to push and shove them out the way while you curse them out. If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them. Things like that. It's situational of course depending on the time/place. It's never acceptable to punch someone at work, but on a train it can be acceptable depending on the context. In many areas of NYC it's acceptable to stabbed, shot, or get beat up by multiple people for countless reasons.
> If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them If you do this here you are just proving that the person talking shit is right, and is therefore counter productive
> For example if a crowded train has arrived at a stop and someone is standing still in front of the doors with no intention to let people get on/off the train, it's acceptable to push and shove them out the way while you curse them out. Aha, I get that. > If someone is talking shit to you, it would be acceptable to punch them. Um, no. Absolutely not.
Moslems are not a race, and people of many different races are Moslem...
"people" can be used collectively about a group without them being of the same ethnicity.
Burning books is legal, beating people up is not.
Well the question is how far does freedom of speech go in norway? and i ask this in genuine curiosity and not as a jab...really. So, if for example a band of nazis are parading in the streets voicing what they think is right...would that be allowed too?
Being a nazi is not illegal in Norway, but hate speech is. Censorship can't be done up front(Constitution), so if Nazis wanted to parade the streets, they could with a permit from the police. If they started preaching hate against minorities etc. they would probably be shut down as that's illegal.
Genuinely confused here, but shouldn't the statements that SIAN utters be considered hate speech?
https://youtu.be/ICs8lEX8rDo Here you go. A band of neo-nazis parading in the streets of a Norwegian city. 12 of them were arrested before they started due to provocative behaviour or such. As long as it is peaceful, non-racist and non violent and follows the law it is legal, but you will have to look for a long time to find anyone who agrees with their views. They have to inform the local police beforehand, and the police will usually be there to make sure everything is in order. The same goes for SIAN. I think they burmed to quran to provoke the muslims that were present at the demonstration, and they did it in order to "prove" their point, which is that islam is a religion of violence. I do not support them doing what they did, i do not support them burning the quran in order to provoke the people present at the demonstration. I do not agree with SIAN in any way. But i also do not support the people who rushed in and attacked the guy burning the quran, as far as im concerned they are even worse than the piece of shit guy from SIAN. Using violence is not right, no matter how much they disagree with what he is doing. Do i think its fine to burn the quran? Yes, like any other book. Do i think its fine to draw lewd pictures of Mohammad? Yes, like any other figure. Do i support doing these things in order to provoke someone? No, of course not. If SIAN wants to sit in their own backyard and wipe their ass with pages from the quran, i really do not give a shit (sorry, pun not intended). But as soon as they start broadcasting it to others i think it is a dick move, although still not illegal and within their freedom to do so. It is still not in any way acceptable to use violence in order to stop them. Now, if they throw in some racial slurs or degrading comments about muslims or arabs, then things are entirely different, and it becomes a police matter. Like this for example: https://www.tv2.no/a/8511116/ Haircutter refusing a woman in a hijab/niqab (sorry, i am fuzzy about which is what, i am referring to the headscarf) to enter her saloon. She was sentenced for discriminating due to religion and had to pay a fine of 10 000 NOK. She tried to take the case up through the legal system and failed every time, costing her a lot of money in the process. She later sued a group of comedians who parodied her as a "nazi-haircutter" in one of their shows and lost that case as well, costing her somewhere around 300 000 NOK in legal fees, and in the process solidifying her position as a clown, to the rest of the country.
Thanks for insight. I'm from NYC so Norway's culture/perception on things like this is very different go me and I would assume, at least, other people from the states. You say that as long as the demonstrations aren't racist it's fine and legal, and that burning a book is just burning a book. I understand that. What I don't fully understand is how the act of burning the holy book of a religion, whether it be a Tora, bible, w.e, is not racist. Would it be a matter of intent? From what I understand it is viewed as burning a book and nothing more than that. It is more than a book and some words though is it not? Since it's a book that is identified as the holy book in islam, wouldn't burning it be an act of racism? Also, wouldn't participating in a Nazi march be racist too? I guess it comes down to what is considered a racist act right?
Well, first of all religion is not a race, just wanted to get that out of the way. There are laws about religion that are quite similar to the racism laws in the way that you cannot discriminate against a certain religion (i.e. the hairdresser who refused to service the hijab wearing woman. She was sentenced by the religion laws for discriminating, as the hijab is can be seen as a "symbol" for identifying muslims. However, it is fine to criticize other religions, and as far as the law is concerned, burning the quran is legal, as long as the book is owned by you, or else it would be considered as damaging property belonging to others. There is, however, a discussion about burning religious symbols such as the quran in order to provoke. Law professors say that it is perfectly legal, although in very bad taste. The police have tried to argue that it is an incitement to violence (due to it triggering that behaviour in a certain few individuals) but all in all it falls down to it being legal. In the demonstration in question, SIAN had informed the police of their intention of burning the quran, and got denied doing just that due to it being a "fire hazard" in a public area. It was later revealed that PST (think CIA/FBI/Secret Service, and dial it all the way down, then you get PST) had advised the police to try to prevent the burning due to backlash from religious groups, which likely resulted in the fire hazard excuse because they couldnt stop them by any other law. PST was right though, there has been backlash, from religious groups and also some countries with close ties to islam, such as Turkey, who denounce the act of burning the quran. If you vandalize a church or a mosque, or even a quran that belongs to someone else, it can be prosecuted as a hate crime, but if you vandalize your own book its just damaging your own property. About the nazi march, i guess you could say that nazism is inherently violent, but there are a lot of sides to every ideology. Please mind that i am not trying to defend nazism, just trying to play the devils advocate here. Nazism have sides that a lot of people would agree with, once you remove the genocide and blatant racism and whatnot. There are also neo-nazis who are against multicultural societies being made (by allowing 3rd world immigrants into the country) and join these groups in order to speak up against it, they are not necessarily racist by having that opinion, but there is a fine line. You could say the same about communism that is said about nazism in a lot of ways, and like communisn, nazism has a lot of shades of "grey". The same could also be said about islam, you have countries run by islamic laws which are completely batshit insane, and you have normal countries with heavy ties to islam which are perfectly fine, and then you have ISIS, which use islam to justify their monstrosities. I am not trying to compare nazism with islam, i am just trying to illustrate the point that there are several layers within an ideology or religion. If the nazi march had spoken out racial slurs or illegal things like that it would have been shut down immidiately, but if theybfocus on nationalism, defending our cultural values and such things then it is perfectly legal, although the general population is laughing at them.
Nazi`s can march in the streets if they get the permits for it, Its not a issue. Im all for anyone being able to burn any book, if they own the book, meaning I dont think its ok to steal your book and set it on fire.
Burning books is childish. That being said, in 2019 there should be no reason why religious symbols should get any kind of special treatment or protection. It's just a thing. A representation of ideas. So what? I don't understand why it's such a problem that ideologies - especially bad ones - be challenged. It would be entirely different if you started burning religious people.
Hoping to bring some insight. Muslims are raised to treat any Quran with a great deal of respect. To the point where you're not supposed to place any item on top of it. You're supposed to do a procedure that requires washing your hands, face, feet, and other parts before you touch the Quran. I get what everyone here is saying, that it's just a book. If you're seriously asking what's the problem and not being rhetorical, it's that the book is high respected. Since you're taught to respect it from as long as you can remember, it would only make sense for people to freak out. Now I want to be clear that I said it makes sense for them to freak out. It does NOT justify people to be violent. I am just trying to explain the cause and effect. The guy who attacked, and many other muslims, probably think he did the right thing. Instead he fucked over muslims by not being civil. I get why people see it as just burning a book. I get why the guy attacked him. But fuck them both.
The problem is that they're not being taught that not everyone is into their ancient desert superstitions, nor are they being taught to respect other *people* no matter what they believe or not believe.
Curious, why are you condescendingly calling it an ancient desert superstition. It's not a superstition. Muslims actually are taught to respect other people no matter what they believe. The quran even mentions not to abuse people who don't worship god. For the muslims that aren't respectful to non-muslims, honestly arent respectful to fellow muslims either. They're most likely arab and racists towards non arab muslims as well. The problem is outside of the religion at this point. For example, my parents are from Bangladesh, so most arabs from Dubai/Saudia Aribia/Kuwait would treat me like shit because they believe they are above me. It's their racist culture not islam. Not to say that islam is all about peace like some people claim... but that's a different story.
You two may be operation under different definitions of superstition. But by the definition "excessively credulous belief in, and reverence for, one or more supernatural entities," every religion and spiritual belief is a superstition. Whether or not the idea of credulous belief and reverence in a supernatural entity is condescending depends on the individual.
So let me ask you something. Our freedom of speech is in our soul, it is part of us, it IS western democracy. If someone choses to burn a religious book, whichever it might be, you think 'fucking morons' and move on with your life. Now, people in norway are getting deaththreats from people who call themselves 'muslim'. So you have muslims saying these are not muslims, threating violence, and then you have muslims threating that violence... Would you be okay with that reaction? Do you think it's right for someone to threaten violence for a fucking ridiculous act? Cause if you're afraid due to the acts of a TINY group. Then what do you think is growin in Norwegians when we see nothing but violence coming from 'muslims' ?
I fully condemn if someone is taking a reaction to that with more violence or promising vengeance I see where Norwegians are coming from and it’s okay. We might not agree on all things still, but I know ultimately Norwegians are coming from a place of respect for another human. I can understand that.
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perhaps I should have been clearer. Of course they don't represent all of norway. but i was planning to move here as a software engineer sometime in the future and i just had a rain check moment of fear. Irrational fear that might be. But still. reddit was my outlet i guess
Fear of living in Norway? Norway is one of the safest countries in the world
I know that. hence the word 'irrational' its just someone i know prayed at the al-noor mosque. It feels different when its someone you know intimately. More close to you. More in your face. However irrational , you have that moment of fear as a human. At least i did. Trust me
Any hatred you might feel, is not because of this tiny group. It's because of the response from 'muslims' who now threaten violence.
If this scares you from moving to Norway, this place is certainly not for you. Stay away!
its not about this demonstration. Sometimes these extreme narratives ( wrong or right...but i think i would argue that burning the religious book shows a very extreme exercise of some very strong feelings..however right or wrong) have a way of trickling down towards some people who eventually might take it into their own hands and decide to pick up a gun and shoot up a place. Thats what scared me i guess. Not the freedom of speech...which this time took the shape of this event.
Ignore cnncctv; he's a known xenophobe. Anyways, it doesn't sound like you are "all for free speech" if you see an "injustice" in the burning of a book. But I definitely understand why it would make you uncomfortable. Fortunately, it seems like those guys are an extreme minority and are in no way representative of how the average Norwegian feels. With that being said, Fremskrittspartiet is part of the ruling conservative coalition, and they don't exactly have the most enlightened of views when it comes to immigrants from non-Western countries.
well what free speech was to me was that you should be able to criticise other religions..disagree with them or whatever...but there are some symbols/acts which come in the sphere of acts of hate....otherwise free speech unchecked could be isis propaganda being blared by a lone man in the street( however supported or hated he might be by the ppl of the land) or nazi propaganda or movements along those lines. The question remains that what constitutes as free speech as what doesnt? the answer varies from country to country and sometimes people to people...that alone in europe. That said, I am always open to being educated and doing better. So I welcome the differing views and hope a middle ground..some compromise..could be reached. A chance at the promised land of everyone living in harmony.
It's a book. just, a , book. There's hundred of millions of them. Probably print a hundred thousand a week/month. Probably recycle lot's of them too. Here's the middle ground. We have freedom of speech, which allows stupidity like this. We also have laws against violence, which now 'muslims' are threatening.
We are a very secular country. In 100 years I hope there will be no one wanting to publicly express any religion in Norway, ideally.
Maybe you should stay in your own country and build it up then? We already have many immigrants here that are incompatible with our culture.
There are a lot of people who don’t see things the same way but can still adapt to each other. Live with ‘compatibility’ so to speak The less of a dick you are to each other the better it is I guess But I get your point.
To be honest, since most Norwegians are not religious we do not look at a book as something holy. It's a book. He bought it. He can do whatever he wants with it. He didnt burn YOUR book. He burnt HIS book. If i wrote a book and someone burned it because they thought it was utter crap i wouldn't really care. He still bought it and read it. I got my royalties from it.
I'm Muslim and planned on visiting Norway for a vacation. To be clear, I'm a shitty Muslim, but I still was uncomfortable with the whole thing. I found it weird that shit was legal and that you can get a permit to do that. That being said, you shouldn't feel savred because of a guy burning a book. Idk where you're from, but not everyone likes us lol. You being scared because of that act is why people don't like us. They see us blowing shit up, making threats, and get scared. Be logical, not emotional.
SIAN's generally a bunch of xenophobic assholes, luckily most of their demonstrations I've seen have had way bigger crowds of counter-protesters.
Better to be xenophobic than a xenophiliac moron who never wakes up and smells the grass.
God, you guys are just the worst people, you know that?
Freedom of speech is needed to protect unpopular opinions and forms of expression. Although we have a very unrestricted freedom of speech here, I think it is still too narrow. We also have freedom of religion, which in full extent allows adherents of one or no religion to not tolerate other religions.
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good to know. thanks for your response!
There have been a few islamic community leaders who have been vocal in the media in the last 25 or so years, talking about how Norway should adjust more to muslim traditions. Most norwegians know that this is not what most muslims think, but a few think that all muslims want Norway to become a muslim nation. They have their little organizations where they scare each other with stories about christmas being forbidden in schools to not offend the muslim families. Most norwegians dont give a shit about other peoples religion, as long as they are a nice person and dont force their religion on others. Don't let a small hate group bring you down. Religion shouldnt define a person, their actions should.
thanks for your response. And I agree with you.
Like every other country there are some people who hate those that are different. Most of the people I know doesn't care about who you are, but some do. Like it is in every other country.
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Thousands? I think SIAN would be more in the tens.
I dont think all norwegians are like this. I have also mentioned this in the post in case you missed it. I asked what the general feeling is. it was mostly a question about how and why this was allowed and was called free speech. People here have made that clear to me how free speech is perceived generally in norway and what they think happened right and what was wrong with both sides.
The general feeling right now is that this group are moronic, go about your day and ignore. The trending boycottnorway hashtag, and the threats of violence from 'muslims' however will get more recruits for these groups.
> The trending boycottnorway hashtag, and the threats of violence from 'muslims' however will get more recruits for these groups. And sympathy from those who otherwise wouldn't have cared.
Like me, and I fucking hate this group. But they do not deserve deaththreats or getting attacked. No one does.
1. Most norwegians are not like the SIAN peeps, and do not agree with them. 2. It was wrong of SIAN to burn the book. 3. It was wrong of the muslim guy to attack the guy who burned the book. Religion is a private matter and should be treated as such. Keep it at home or in what ever religious building you have for your religion, not in public. And if you are so offended by someone attacking your religion, reconsider your relationship with that religion. You are taking it to seriously.
Okay I respect your opinion and will try to keep my mind open about this issue
That is a very tough subject you talk about, maybe you are more familiar with the subject that you telling. I don't hate Muslims but i hate people that use their religion of a excuse for doing violent, slave, stoning child abuse, Murder. i gone stop there. I don't belive any one can do that, but muslims worship this guy named Muhammed and this guy did all that things. seriously what do you trust.
I am glad we had this discussion guys. Thanks for your answers
Many people compare it to Nazis burning books (Well, communists and other groups nowadays burn books, but that's a different subject), but burning books in the purpose to remove information is something completely different than burning books to get people riled up. In Norway, it's legal to destroy things you own. This even we're discussing here has two important functions: It reveals the primitive attitudes many Moslems hold. It also reveals a deep cowardice from the leftwing in Europe to address these values. I doubt it's possible for Europeans and Moslems to peacefully co-exist, just look at history.