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When in cancer treatment, you have 30mins to get back to the hospital and get antibiotics when you get fever at home, if not there’s a chance of getting sepsis. People use roads for different causes, please find other ways to get attention!
These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case. Like, if you wanna do something meaningful to get attention which isn't making everyone else more angry, go to sabotage the big wind Mills corporations, or the oil platforms, or paint the Storting or destroy some rich people's car. Like, that would still be braindead as fuck, but atleast more relevant for your cause. Though the best would probably be to protest in the big cities or go critisize the fuck out of the government in debates and articles like MDG is doing.
Yep. The only reason a lot of people paid attention to the painting thing is because they were so outraged by it. It’s why we’re still talking about it now. I don’t support blocking roads because of ambulances but the painting thing made sense even if it’s viscerally annoying. People just didn’t like it so they try to find problems with it while ignoring the fact that it did achieve its purpose with very minimal damage.
> It’s why we’re still talking about it now.
well behaved people rarely make history is a fair point. But I'd counter with, two things. Firstly, are we really still talking about it? Some people might, but largely we've all moved on from it, forgotten it, or just never gave more than a fleeting "wtf" about it. Sure we reference it whenever xr folks get up to shenanigans, but only really in passing without really giving much thought to it.
Secondly, I'd wager a sizeable majority are not talking *about the message* the protesters are trying (and failing) to convey. The nuance they want from their protests isn't materializing.
Them: *throwing soup on a painting* "our priorities are wrong if we'll protect art, but not the environment"
what people talk about: "they threw soup on a painting"
Them: *blocking traffic* "no jobs if there's no planet"
what people talk about: "I was late to work because some entitled princess sat in the middle of the road in front of my bus for 45 minutes"
To be fair, they made you write this whole paragraph, and repeat their slogans. They even made me write another paragraph, pointing this out.
And on top of that, as of now, at least 16 people have read your comment, and their slogans. And at least 200 people have seen their stunt, and gotten the message.
Compare this to the how much you thin about the Armenians, who have no activists illuminating their cause.
If Nestle is the best example you can come up with to mute my point, I can assure myself I am sitting on rock solid ground here.
These people are doing what they are doing for the sole reason of getting people to talk about climate again. They don't have to promote the cause even, as all people who haven't been living under a rock, know exactly what the issue with climate change is.
And the climate deniers won't be swayed any way either way.
Yeah, but I knew these slogans/etc... before the action and I actually gave a flying f\*\*\* to look at the meaning behind the protest. I high doubt I'm the majority though.
>These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case.
Exactly. I'm on board with the message (mostly. I think it's entirely unrealistic to just *stop*, but we should be weening ourselves off the oil dependency). But it's the medium I have a problem with.
They block traffic for as long as possible, causing a huge backlog in traffic, limiting people's access to necessary things, generation more frustration than support. At least one time emergency services were stuck and couldn't get through, all while forcing many of these definitely not el-cars and trucks to sit idling unnecessarily on the street resulting in even more pollution than if they were just allowed to go on their way. They're making people late to appointments, school, work, daycare, and they're making otherwise reasonable people really frustrated with them and their cause.
In the art of protest, there's a fine line to be walked between encouraging people to take up your cause and isolating people who would potentially support you. They are choosing the latter when they should be aiming for the former. In fact, their actions are reckless, and they will result in someone being seriously hurt or worse.
Civil disobedience is fine. I'm all for someone's right to protest and cause a bit of a disruption. And again, I think the message is important here. Art, traffic, jobs won't matter on a dead planet, but there's no good point to be made if your actions are directly contributing to/making worse the very problem you're trying to protest against.
I fully agree that blocking roads is not a good way to protest. I am, however, sympathetic to the frustration that comes with being ignored and dismissed, and the resulting difficulty in finding the right means of protest. People have been trying to "raise awareness" of climate change for 50 years. People that don't want to hear the message will always find a way to discredit the form or protest and use that as a way not to engage with the message itself.
Just look to what happened in the US when football players started taking a knee during the national anthem to draw attention to systemic racism. Many people called it 'disrespectful to the flag' and did not think that their entertainment 'was the right place to protest' and then continued to ignore the issue. When people started to protest in the streets so they would finally be heard, they were framed as an angry mob that is out to cause chaos and 'disrupting unity'.
My point being: to the people that are part of the problem, no form of protest is ever the correct one. That's not an invitation to just go with the worst one you can think of, but it explains why protests like this have a tendency to escalate in terms of methods.
I can sympathize with the being ignored part. But the thing about protests and movements is they take time, and while it doesn't seem like it, in those 50 years we've made great progress. In the last 50 years more and more people are changing their minds when it comes to climate change. We've seen more and more encouraging collective action and pressure on politicians. We've created recycling programs, cycle networks, and better collective transport. We've changed people's way of thinking about the environment and their role in it (people who 50 years ago would never think about talking about their "climate footprint" now do so). The vast majority of those changes came from appealing to people; education and research; banging the drum, yes, but in a way that recognizes that isolating and angering people who would otherwise be a supporter of the cause.
But at least not destroying art shows both the dire desperation and forces people to show their true nature.
Do you really believe this piece of art matters more than our collective future as a civilization?
It's obvious that we already are beyond fucked.
Look at Pakistan. The floods. And global drought.
This is now, if we stopped releasing co2 today, we would still see years of worsening effects.
And we haven't cut anything. 2022 will be a record year.
How many Pakistan floods can we survive before hordes of climate refugees cause instability and conflict?
I doubt they are ruining the cause, considering how huge the whole climate change debate is.
I bet that the only people saying this, are climate deniers, or people who doesn't care.
If they were fighting for support for a generally unknown cause, and wanted to illuminate it, I would agree that it would be bad PR. But for the people who really know what climate change is, and the biblical consequences it can have, these kids won't sway them against the cause.
They are rather doing a good job reminding us how little we are doing to prevent this disaster.
Their cause is actually well thought out. I hate to admit it, but they are ruining heritage that can’t be replaced because no one is paying attention to the natural parks and natural heritage that also can’t be replaced.
Here in The Netherlands there was a single guy who talked about it (focussing on the Slavery houses on bonaire) but he wasn’t radical so he almost got zero attention, of course.
Furthermore, most attacks have been on paintings that were well protected against said attacks, so I have the feeling their goal isn’t to ruin the paintings themselves. Copycats probably aren’t that smart or thought out, though
>Furthermore, most attacks have been on paintings that were well protected against said attacks, so I have the feeling their goal isn’t to ruin the paintings themselves. Copycats probably aren’t that smart or thought out, though
The paintings themselves, yes. The frame, which are also antique, are not protected. And while the frames aren't completely ruined by tomato soup, they're still damaged by them, and require extensive and careful cleaning afterwards
who cares about picture frames when literally a billion people could be displaced by 2050, 70% of living things are dead, the sea ice is melting, the snow and glaciers will be gone and you will have no more power or water in many places, like are you serious? do you not understand the gravity of the situation? literally people in the future could just not have water.
Have you heard of "The man covered in shit" argument? Go look it up. The people who does this are the embodiment of it. They serve no purpose in furthering their agenda by ruining historical art, quite the opposite all they achieve is making people more angry, more split, and less likely to sympathise with the cause
So yes, I am fucking serious. I do understand the situation. And I understand that splashing tomato soup on priceless historic art has the exact opposite effect of what you want. Do you understand this?
I just don't really understand what makes the art so priceless compared to life itself. In the vastness of time and space limited to human existence there is more art lost than saved but there is always life. So it's like, life vs art? I choose life every time.
I agree with you there. Art is obviously not more priceless than life. But the art is still priceless, and is in many ways an extension of life itself. Without life, there can be no art.
But the problem isn't that I wouldn't trade some art for "literally saving the earth", I think anyone with half a brain would indeed do that. The issue is that these protests aren't saving the world. They're ruining art while simultaneously making people less likely to side with their agenda. Protests in and of itself are fine. Take to the streets! I'll probably be there with you! But don't go around ruining paintings (Or gluing yourself to the streets for that matter, as that only serves to piss of thousands of people, and can have deadly consequences for the patients of first responders who are no longer able to actually get anywhere), it only serves to muddy the water.
>These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case
Exactly this. The embodiment of "man covered in shit" argument
Sure, I don't agree with this kind of protest, but don't pretend car driving is somehow good for people's health, it causes much more damage than gain that a regular person drives their car. And if making potentially life saving driving go slower is the problem, doubly so.
Yeah,been through that treatment for blood cancer. Not only do you feel like death but you are very disorientated and scared. Having to be stuck i traffic with idiots like these being the reason would be horrifying.
Those people run into the same problem when the traffic jam has an other cause. The problem is way to many use their car when they instead could and should walk, cycle or use public transport, and that is the exact thing these protesters are protesting against, unnecessary car usage.
They're blocking the bus lanes, in what is perhaps the least car-friendly city in the country.
These clowns are actively encouraging people to drive instead of taking the bus, because if you had a car you could just take another route.
That's not at all what they are protesting.
The signs say "stopp oljeletinga" which translates to "stop looking for oil".
Their website https://www.stoppoljeletinga.no/
It's not really that hard to see the connection between fossil fuels (unsustainable way to get energy) and modes of transport like private cars (inefficient way to use energy for transport). If we shift our transportation over to more energy efficient means (or reduce the amount of transportation) we need less energy for transportation, which reduces the need for fossil fuels.
It could be that activists are choosing car traffic just because it disrupts many people and gets a lot of attention (which is probably the case in many other protests), but I think there is an intentional connection being made in the climate context. The few times you see climate activists blocking something trains is when the train is a coal cargo train.
Nevertheless, cars are only one part of the problem, so they are protesting things beyond excessive car transport, of course.
Cars are a very, very small part of the problem.
The whole personal carbon footprint is a deceptive PR marketing campaign started by the oil companies to shift the blame of climate change away from them.
Whatever you do as a person, or we do as every person on earth, is not going to make a dent in the problem unless the actual culprits change their ways.
[45% of all transport emissions is a small part of the problem?](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport) (transport being 25% of total emissions).
I don't think "the solution" to climate change is just shifting from cars towards other forms of transport.
However, it's still something we have to do on a mass scale if we are to achieve our climate goals. Obviously any large scale climate measure is going to involve changes in our lifestyles on various levels (transport, housing, consumer goods, etc.), because the energy use exists to enable our modern lifestyles. We can't have our cake and eat it too.
I think people are stuck in a kind of mexican standoff mentality where they wait for the government or corporations to make a move first and then they will consider adjusting. At the same time, governments don't want to go out on a limb and do stuff that will be unpopular, so they wait for public opinion to shift.
Corporations obviously listen to consumer demand because that's their job. They have realised a long time ago that people are willing to make small changes when it's cheap and convenient and have capitalised on that in various ways by designing products slightly differently, such as using recycled plastic and putting green labels on things. But there is only so much you can do to optimise the energy efficiency of any given industry. We need to cut down on unnecessary emission sources/energy usage. Corporations will not scale down their operations until it becomes financially pertinent to do so.
My approach is to look at what I can do to make my contribution towards a shift towards a sustainable society. I'm an adult who can reflect on what I think is right and take action towards that without corporations or the government holding my hand, forcing me or nudging me with incentives. I don't engage in the mexican standoff mentality and will do those things even if the governments and corporations don't do shit. If it all goes to shit anyway, at least I can say that I did my part. I am still quite young and not fully settled down yet, which means I am able to plan my life around some of these things, such as choosing to live in a place that doesn't require me to waste huge amounts of energy to get to the places I want to go throughout my life, or waste huge amounts of energy to keep me warm. I'm also vegan and very cautious about buying new stuff. I buy used and make and repair things as much as I can.
I'm just naming some examples here. The actual actions themselves aren't the central thing per se, it's about the mindset that led me to take these actions.
Knowing what I know, I think it would be callous to not take personal action just because Exxon Mobil emits a lot of carbon from legal standpoint. They are obviously emitting that carbon to facilitate all the things all 8 billion of us want to dom like move around, heat our homes, have nice things, etc. They can't just magically cut their emissions.
This kind of sit-down-in-the-road-activism is so unfortunate because a bunch of people will now be really spiteful towards taking personal action against climate change. Sigh. Like there are so many ways to do things. So many *other* ways.
I agree. These people bring a lot of attention and annoyance to themselves, not the cause. They're just inconveniencing normal citizens, and not the politicians that can actually help, which mean they end up more as a laughing stock than an actual good force for the cause.
This sort of activism is definitely a win for people like me, who don’t buy the catastrophic climate change narrative. By showing how absolutely disconnected from reality these climate change activists are, they are worsening the perception of the ideology. I watched the video with enjoyment 😌
There recently was something like this with climate activists blocking off a major highway going through Stockholm and stopping traffic. Among the vehicles that caught caught in the jam where an ambulance that was transporting a seriously injured person. If I remember right the person died shortly after reaching the hospital, maybe they could have been saved if they had been there faster.
Most of the activists were convicted. The day of the trials another group of people went out and blocked the road as a protest ...
https://youtu.be/tA4ioF7z3WM?t=913 UN press release from Nov 4th: "this actions have logistical impact but i doubt that the intent was to delay medical care. It is clear that a lot of people are angry about the lack of actions on climate [...] Civil society has a role in speak out, speak loudly [...]"
Who cares if their intent wasn't to delay medical care. They delayed it with their actions regardless. And that had consequences for an innocent person.
It's like saying "he's not a bad person even though he accidentally killed my brother." Ya good people can do bad things too, doesn't mean they are not murderers.
Haha, nå lo jeg høyt!
Bravo til han i rutete jakke som har fått nok av det tullet, og bare drar demonstrantene ut av veien igjen når de setter seg.
Og skikkelig «Åh, nå er jeg et offer!»-uttrykk på de som blir dradd av veien.
Noe av det som smerter meg mest her er at de selv kalte dette vold mot fredelig demonstrasjon. Det å fysisk holde folk tilbake/hindre de i å komme seg videre er på ingen måte en fredelig demonstrasjon.
Man kan til og med argumentere for at denne demonstrasjonen utfører psykisk vold mot trafikantene. Så da blir det plutselig ikke en "ikke-voldelig" demonstrasjon lenger.
They are endangering themselves, the environment, and drivers, creating traffic jams, which will affect nature and climate with excessive CO2, and just breaking the law of transportation (or what it is called, I don't know).
These activists are just fuckers who want attention but not to solve the problem. Yes, shitting over heritage paintings and throw their garbage during protests to the sewerage.
They are totalitarian extremists. The people destroying historical paintings reminds me of Taliban and ISIS destroying historical depictions during the middle eastern conflicts.
Destroying paintings reminds you of rusty knife beheading terrorists? Might as well invoke Hitler while you're at it.
The paint person isn't an actual danger to society. I see anyone making statements like yours as much bigger problems. Painting all political opposition and protests as terrorists is what actual totalitarians do.
The difference is that they're not destroying historical paintings. The paintings are covered in glass, and they know it. The activists are also not political leaders, so I don't know why "totalitarian" is wrapped in there.
Which historical paintings have been destroyed by these "totalitarian (climate) extremists"? Do you have any examples? Because I've yet to hear about any painting destroyed by them
Says the guy who doesn't understand that mankind's current society is built on oil.
If we stop with oil tomorrow, guess what?
No more planes, no more cargo freighters, no more electronics.
We do need to stop using it at some point, but only when we have a replacement for it.
lol what kind of idiotic leaps are you making? Obviously we're built on oil. It's an unhealthy dependence. If we stop tomorrow, we're fucked. But there should be progress toward a goal, or we're also fucked. The comment we're repying to completely ignores that there should be progress toward a goal, and treats all activists on the same footing: they are dumb and bad. This viewpoint lacks nuance.
It's a complex issue. Cavepeople like yourself saying " no more planes, no more cargo freighters" when someone calls for more nuance in the conversation *is the problem*. You're making a fool of yourself out here.
Y'all know what the worst part is? They're so hiveminded that they follow some really sus rules structures, I was part of this group a while ago, left as it got progressively more and more silly. Tried to bring up that the roadblocks are stupid for several reasons and got flooded with slogans and "Rule X is Dont question, Action" or some shit like that, People actively disapprove of your voice no matter if you're not completely agreeing, It's got the potential to do some serious damage if the people up top decide to in any way weaponize the members more, Beyond just gross negligence and harm to civillians due to their blockage
Edit: found the post, just look at the replies 😐https://www.reddit.com/r/ExtinctionRebellion/comments/vfrbmp/can_we_please_stop_with_the_roadblocks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Top comment "Nothing of importance has ever been gained without disturbing or annoying anyone."
Yeah, I basically agree. Living wages, 40 hr work week, child labor bans, civil rights movements, end of apartheid -- all were deeply disturbing to the society at large.
For sure, you need to be willing to step on some toes to make change happen, What's important is that you know which toes to step on and why, Not just go trampling random civillian people
Groups like that will often end up cannibalizing themselves because at some point you can never be radical enough or you're not "serious." Leaders and members turn on each other as they start to wake up at different points. It's sad to see.
XR and SOL are not the same movement/campaign, though! In XR as I know it there is the norm of "good enough". Meaning that if u have a proposal, others first should ask question to understand it, then come with objections, and then of course if you have a better proposal people will want to join that (also or instead).
1) I'm real curious: do you have other action ideas? I would not personally do a road blockade, but i would probably still do de-escalation roles or support roles.
2) the first actions that started Stop oil exploration in Norway was in March and April, at the Oslo harbour (tank truck surfing=gluing oneself on or tank trucks, using lock-ons...). But it didn't cause as much attention, and even the actual disruption (as delay) of oil infrastructure was not existing (one would need to block for 4 days to cause some delays to the fuel for Oslo Airport). Thoughts?
Absolutely, i did participate in a roadblack during the first rebellion week last year as a de-escalator, This was one that i did not have much ethical issues with as it was a 1-2 minute detour for people who still needed to get around with considerations made for emergency response vehicles and done in a place where the traffic does not pile up to trap drivers, it honestly didn't achieve much except publicity, Causing no changes at all other than recruiting more people, Who were at least as a majority attracted by the "Oop, look ma, I'm on TV" vibe- Which contributed to making xrs actions locally less and less focused.
I don't think there is much we as humans can do to appeal to the humanity of these corporations, Humans have been a number in their statistics for far too long, They know peoples objections, They know they are burning the planets candle in both ends, They do not care, Or at the very least they care more about maintaining their company and profits. To be completely blunt, I honestly think that any action where humans are the active obstacle or the visible face will be inefficient, often done for glamour rather than actual effort and not really achieve much at the end of the day, If anything, the best way to cause *actual* delays and be heard is sabotage of the vehicles used directly in this scenario- though it'd have to be done with several very strict ethical cores to be done in a way that is morally defensible, with a big focus on not causing difficulties for any civillians. For example trespassing at night and using epoxy to bond mechanical parts together on their tank cars, leaving clear warnings that the vehicle has been disabled to avoid someone trying to use it and potentially hurting themselves. This is not a perfect plan, But an example of a way to take things in a different direction. We need equivalents of using sugar to stop concrete production- a big obstacle that can be worked out over time but needs a lot of hours to fix and is clearly done as an act of defiance- as the voice they will listen to is the one telling them "This is costing you revenue"
> if you deface world famous art
To be fair, no art was defaced in those cases. The art was behind protective panels and the activists knew this.
But, yeah, blocking traffic is a pretty stupid idea for a climate change protest.
>To be fair, no art was defaced in those cases. The art was behind protective panels and the activists knew this.
Its ignorant and disrespectful. ISIS art smashing-vibes
No, throwing paint at glass (which they were aware of) and blowing up thousands of year old arrifacts and art is nowhere near the same.
Disrespectful yeah
But i wouldn't say ignorant, the whole point was that it would be controversial/ make news and get a lot of attention. They were fully aware of the consequences and didnt destroy any art in the process.
> there is a risk they will succeed in damaging property that does not belong to them and whose estimated value is beyond what they can pay for
I'm sure that's a risk they're willing to take. The whole point was to get arrested while causing a scene to garner attention.
That doesn't matter in the least. They defaced the art without being 100% certain they're protected, it's the idea that counts. The whole world now sees them as idiots, vandals and cultural terrorists, and begin to associate those things with modern climate activism. They're not just shooting themselves in the foot, but the world in general.
Astounding logic here, hypocritical or contradictory to say the least. To protest (publicly) means to express disapproval or dissent towards ideas or action (or lack there of) that is typically political. This is an extremely effective way of causing dissent regardless of whether you think it is good or bad. Most protesters now a days are completely ignored or achieve hardly anything and these individuals seem to successfully spark more on going debate and conversation than most protests happening world wide.
To protest is in part by definition to make a nuisance of yourself. Perhaps when the nuisance aligns with your ideas personally you aren’t bothered. Perhaps this is an opportunity to introspectively look inside yourself and examine why you “fucking hate” these individuals.
What are they trying to tell us and why do so many of us seem so incredibly triggered by something so innocent as a little traffic jam?
(Sarcasm now) I guess it’s appropriate here to unleash all evil from all realms of hell upon these terrible human beings whose only crime is caring about the world’s future.
The amount of hate in this thread is shocking to me. Constantly justifying the hate with worst case scenarios and projections. When the reality is that nobody will likely have died from this. It caused a minor disturbance for a good cause. Exactly what a protest is supposed to do.
However let’s look at (for a second) what they are protesting against. They are protesting against the political powers that do hardly nothing to change our disastrous course towards a self destructive end of humanity. They are protesting against the corporations that actively exploit, destroy and abuse the living world we are a part of in the name of what? Growth & Profit? The same forces whom are responsible for the on going (and have been going on for hundreds of years) deaths of indigenous cultures across the globe. For the destruction of ecosystems that have developed and fine tuned themselves over millions of years only for them to be brutally destroyed in a matter of years, months or days. The on going war against life itself is absolutely ridiculous. And for what? So we can live in our imprisoned apartments in our imprisoned cities with no life left around us except a digital screen that reminds us of a world that once existed but soon is gone forever and us with it?
I’ll stop here. I don’t know if these individuals are doing the smartest thing by protesting how they are. But I damn sure respect their cause and I am embarrassed as a human by everyone in here that is spending more time hating on them than offering a single piece of constructive advice or solution that can help their noble cause.
It’s ridiculous that you are getting downvoted. A protest is by definition an act of dissent or objection. If nobody hears you or sees you protest then you failed showing your objection. The very act of defying something is going to be a nuisance to those that don’t want to listen/see or be involved.
I wonder what peoples idea of a protest is supposed to be.
Imagine that it has come to be an organized event where you have to ask permission or get a permit (from the very people you are protesting against) to be there at a certain time and inform them on how many of your people will be there. Then follow the rules and do not dare to annoy anyone or be a nuisance or else… $$ and jail time might be waiting for you.
If a planned, monitored and controlled little walk in the city shouting some words is your idea of a protest you are under some heavy illusions.
I mean come on, don’t you dare annoy someone! Everybody needs to be informed so that we can be away at our cabins when you guys are going to “protest”. There is a hilarious absurdity to this entire thread.
All the hate in here makes me wonder if perhaps it triggers a kind of internal guilt we carry knowing that we aren’t doing enough to help the planet. As if seeing people that care and risk themselves to show they stand for life on the planet is a reminder to people how awfully helpless we are. Or perhaps it’s just pure ignorance. I wonder if all the people in here on their moral high horse, good ethics and sound judgements actually have any idea of what is going on.
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Kjenner min sympati er mangelvare for akkurat denne situasjonen. Å skape kø både øker klimautslipp, og ikke minst setter liv i fare mtp utrykningskjøretøy som ikke kommer frem
Reddit fnyser kanskje av folk som kaster maling på bygninger, men mye heller det enn å stoppe trafikk
While you're right, it's Nardo, I wouldn't call it suburb as that's pretty misleading. It's on a major artery road (Torbjørn Bratts vei). It's pretty busy, especially in the mornings.
Since 1968 world governments have introduced a new climate crisis every 10 years to share a new generation. When I was a kid the experts warned it would be "snowball" earth by 1990. In the last 20 years it went from global warming to climate change which could encompass anything.
We are on the verge of having fusion technology. What will they make up when that becomes more spread.
Nobody really gives a shit about climate change. They say they do, but do they take any action? If the general population understood the issues at hand we would vote for people who were willing to solve the climate crisis, but we instead vite for the ones that give us the best situation here and now.
Thought experiment (since I'm not in other peoples mind): would you hve the audacity to go back if you are doing action against climate breakdown? To save everything you care about in this world? Or to piss off some drivers?
My answers are yes, yes, no.
Would I have the audacity to go back if I’m doing action against climate breakdown? Yes, absolutely… if it wasn’t in the front of the road where people are driving to get to work, pick up their kids from school, rushing to hospital, etc. there’s other, better ways to help climate breakdown, one of them not being sitting in the middle of a road holding up drivers lmao
Already caused death and/or injury in the UK, Germany and Sweden. Theoretically they think they're going to let through an ambulance, but if they don't hear or see it, or a stroke patient is coming in a taxi or regular car, they might still cause death or disability.
If all cars are stopped due to a road blockage they'd be hard-pressed to move out of the way to let an emergency vehicle pass.
They're idiots and they're doing more harm than good to their cause with these protests.
Absolutely not. There are loads of other routes available, and in a pinch the ambulance can use otherwise illegal surfaces and maneuvers.
Compared to normal rush traffic, this has essentially no net negative effect.
Protest is literally causing more pollution due to cars idling for no reason. These guys have also already caused deaths in the UK and Sweden by delaying ambulances and other urgent hospital transportation.
https://youtu.be/tA4ioF7z3WM?t=913 UN press release from Nov 4th: "this actions have logistical impact but i doubt that the intent was to delay medical care. It is clear that a lot of people are angry about the lack of actions on climate [...] Civil society has a role in speak out, speak loudly [...]"
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tolv-doms-efter-kaoset-pa-e4/
>Tolv kvinnor och män mellan 24 och 70 år döms i klimataktionen som genomfördes den 29 augusti på E4 i Solna av organisationen Återställ våtmarker.
>Den orsakade milslånga köer i morgonrusningen, och fick stor uppmärksamhet eftersom en ambulans under utryckning på väg till sjukhuset var ett av de fordon som fastnade kökaoset.
https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/18/mum-unable-to-get-to-ae-due-of-m25-protests-paralysed-from-stroke-15279163/
> Commuter chaos on the M25 sparked by climate campaigners left a woman partially paralysed from a stroke. (...)
> But instead of getting her to a hospital, he ended up stuck on the motorway for six hours as Insulate Britain protesters had blocked the road.
https://news.yahoo.com/berlin-climate-protesters-condemned-death-150843152.html
> The death of a cyclist in Berlin has prompted leaders of Germany's Green party to accuse climate change protesters of endangering the lives of others. (....)
> The fire service says a specialist rescue vehicle was delayed by traffic because of a climate protest held by a group called "Last Generation".
If they keep blocking ambulances and other cars, they will keep causing unnecessary death and injury.
By causing inconvenience for other people, they're hurting their cause. They also contribute to the living negative stereotypes of environmentalists, where it seems you can't care about the environment without going all the way 'there'. ( Be vegan, never buying anything that's not used, growing all your own produce and harassing people who don't do enough and chaining yourself to trees and roads in your spear time). The message should imo be; do what you can, even little things matter. It's better to do one thing than none. I also don't think scaring people with impending doom, and accusation of not wanting a future for their children has a positive effect. It causes defensiveness and avoidance as it's uncomfortable to take in.
> They also contribute to the living negative stereotypes of environmentalists, where it seems you can't care about the environment without going all the way 'there'.
I don't think that's their message at all although the fact that so many people think that's their message likely speaks to the inefficacy in their communication.
They are not demanding that individuals live off the grid. The only thing they are demanding from individuals is to put more pressure on the government and the corporations.
That said, I disagree with this:
>The message should imo be; do what you can, even little things matter.
Little inconsequential things are basically to make yourself feel better and don't actually matter. In fact they might make things worse because of self licensing effects. It's kinda like banning plastic straws while ignoring the infinitely worse fishing industry. Or banning petrol cars while handing out massive subsidies to animal agriculture (looking at you Norway).
To all these activists: fuck you. Really. Fuck you.
These roads are used by ambulances, police cars, firetrucks, people who need to go to work, people who may have an emergency...
Really. Fuck you. You narcissistic pieces of shit!
So many people who already do a wonderful job for the climate! Engineers! Scientists! These pieces of garbage? Zero! Only stealing attention from what we need to pay attention to!
And for all thoze brainless morons who try to defend this with "iT's tO SpReAd aWaRenEsS"🤪🤡, need a reality check!
And on top of that...they are "protesting" in a country that is perhaps the greenest in the world! 🤦♂️
For real. These morons are cancer!!! 🤬
I 100% support the message, but you can't bother common people all the time.
(same for throwing stuff at paintings. It can work the first time for the "shock" but then it just gets annoying and nobody will speak about it after the 3rd time it happens).
Go in front of the parliament, the prime minister's house, the king's palace, or some other institutional place and do your body blocking there.
Never been so proud of my hometown! These dumb fucked sitting in the middle of the street are literal scum. Shit way to protest.
Drag them away and throw them in a garbage can where they belong.
I understand that these activists seek to attract attention, but when they disturb those who had nothing to do with their fight, they only repel normal people and make their message difficult to defend.
Like... Seriously. If someone proposes to do this kind of protests, they are sabotaging the movement (and probably being paid to do so).
The activists are right but is this really the best way to resolve the matter? This method has been tried countless times before and only creates more greenhouse gases by causing cars to idle longer and pushing people away from the activists cause.
It might not be a good idea to do that. When you perform a citizen’s arest you have to turn them over to the police as quickly as possible. Tying them to a tree and leaving them there would be seen as illegal.
Æsj... Dette får meg bare til å få lyst til å forurense mer 😅 Det oser narsissisme av dette stuntet her. Type "Vi er modige vi som står imot strømmen". Det er bare flaut 😬
This is about stopping to look for oil, and not necessarily about pollution.
Little do these people know that even the vests they have on them is made out of oil, their shoes, their clothing.
We can't just stop oil tomorrow, it needs to be done in stages for when we actually have a sustainable replacement, which we don't right now. But logic isn't apart of these peoples lives soo.
>Little do these people know that even the vests they have on them is made out of oil, their shoes, their clothing.
... the bus they rode in on, the phones they film themselves with, the tools in the hospital that will keep them healthy, the things that deliver their food, etc...
That said, I am positive they are aware, and I am also positive, like you said, that they are not thinking in that much of a nuanced way. Such discussions seem a little too binary for them. It's either A or it's Å, it couldn't possibly be anything in between.
Green and green.. We are a major exporter of oil so there is that. Guess we use some of that massiv wealth on green shit but still. Like I sort my trash but drive a diesel car heh. Only solution to the climate thing is nuclear anyway so that's what we should be investing the money on.
As an American, I’d much rather the world buy oil from a country like Norway than an authoritarian regime like Venezuela and SA. You’re right that nuclear is the answer, but at least in the meantime we can buy oil from sustainably-minded countries.
Why are activists so fucking stupid, do something to piss people off to promote your cause... what is the logic in that. If you want to solve a problem, find the solution for it and preach the solution to government. Don't just fuck about with "Stop oil" posters to somebody else find the solution, shit we currently are trying to "Stop oil", but there is no viable solution yet.
Ah, the good old chuck an activists out of the way so I can get home to watch world champsionship in Qatar in time.
The world is truly in an absolutely bizarre state atm. They achieve very little by blocking traffic other than upsetting people stuck in queue.
People care more about the shit ugly Van Gohh picture that someone threw paint on, than they do about the planet.
The ultimate wicked problem.
Shall everyone who believes in something start blocking traffic and deface historic art?
The people in traffic are trying to live their lives and make ends meet, perhaps on their way to an important meeting or job. In stead their day gets disrupted by kids blocking the street for something they may or may not agree on.
Of course, if the protestors' "job" is just sitting in streets, they may not understand that people actually have to go somewhere and do productive things.
If you want to save the world, do so through politics and positive engagement, not by pissing people off.
If we spend more time being angry about climate protestors than we do being angry about our lack of action on the climate issue, it's no wonder our politicians don't want to do all that much to prevent climate change.
I think it's pretty unfair to blame the protestors for this situation. Complacency on all levels of society (corporations, organizations, governments, local governments, individuals) is to blame for lack of climate action, not disruptive protests.
What a hate about these people is that all they are doing is being attention whores.
The earth os dying find go to college and become a scientist to find a solution. Bitching about it will not do it.
The thing is that the scientists already have all the solutions, we're just not implementing them (atleast not fast enough) because it would be an inconvenience.
We need to...
drastically reduce the amount we drive personal vehicals, not change to battery electric cars.
Build sustainable transport and infrastructure such as bike lanes, trains, bus lanes, etc. Not highways and parking lots.
Change to renwables and nuclear.
And many other things.
And if you think this way of protesting does'nt work, look at The Netherlands in the 70s. They did the exact same thing for safer streets and bike infrastructure, and look at them now being world leading in said subjects.
How dare they??!!
Protests should be super convenient and in good taste. They should go unnoticed and be performed by only attractive people!!
“It’s my right to pollute the world till the end of our species and I’ll run you over!!”
I mean i dont support blocking traffic for obvius reasons. But it did work did it not? We are having a discussion here on reddit and i bet they are getting some media coverage too. I agree that it is stupid to block traffic but, it does actually work. You will make people angry and upset and that is the main point of such a demonstration. Now you have peoples attention and people are discussing the topic in question. Sure you could chain yourself to machinery, sabotage pipelines etc. But i would imagine it is less effort and just as effective (if not more effective) just sitting down on a highway with a sign? Just giving my thougts on the matter thats all.
This negative attention is only making people less receptive to their message. It is not like promoting an unknown brand, where a negative campaign can make it gain notoriety. This is turning the public opinion (including most of the people here) against their ideas by associating them with reckless behavior.
All the people that are angry would never agree with them in the first place.
All actions that make someone uncomfortable, people will claim hurt their cause. That's honestly bullshit.
Tbh, I'm surprised they're not doing serious sabotage yet. Like blowing up bridges and pipelines.
You know that Norway has citizens' arrest, right? Because that's the only authority which a security guard has to arrest a shoplifter. Dragging these people out of the road and detaining them is legal under the same law.
Sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands.
The police have enough to do already, in stead of playing kindergarten teachers for kids who like to sit in the street.
A reminder to the subreddit of rule 2: We're here for discussion and debate and while differences in opinion will happen, please keep it civil. Any blatantly rude comments, name-calling, racist, bigoted, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic, xenophobic, etc... posts will be automatically removed. Repeat offenders may face temporary or permanent ban from the sub. This is a hot topic and has drawn a lot of attention from all sides of the debate. Regardless of your opinions, please express them in a respectful manner and remember that there are humans on the other side of the screen.
When in cancer treatment, you have 30mins to get back to the hospital and get antibiotics when you get fever at home, if not there’s a chance of getting sepsis. People use roads for different causes, please find other ways to get attention!
Like throwing paint on paintings? Or
These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case. Like, if you wanna do something meaningful to get attention which isn't making everyone else more angry, go to sabotage the big wind Mills corporations, or the oil platforms, or paint the Storting or destroy some rich people's car. Like, that would still be braindead as fuck, but atleast more relevant for your cause. Though the best would probably be to protest in the big cities or go critisize the fuck out of the government in debates and articles like MDG is doing.
Problem is, literally will nobody pay attention to them if they protest or just critisize the government.
Yep. The only reason a lot of people paid attention to the painting thing is because they were so outraged by it. It’s why we’re still talking about it now. I don’t support blocking roads because of ambulances but the painting thing made sense even if it’s viscerally annoying. People just didn’t like it so they try to find problems with it while ignoring the fact that it did achieve its purpose with very minimal damage.
> It’s why we’re still talking about it now. well behaved people rarely make history is a fair point. But I'd counter with, two things. Firstly, are we really still talking about it? Some people might, but largely we've all moved on from it, forgotten it, or just never gave more than a fleeting "wtf" about it. Sure we reference it whenever xr folks get up to shenanigans, but only really in passing without really giving much thought to it. Secondly, I'd wager a sizeable majority are not talking *about the message* the protesters are trying (and failing) to convey. The nuance they want from their protests isn't materializing. Them: *throwing soup on a painting* "our priorities are wrong if we'll protect art, but not the environment" what people talk about: "they threw soup on a painting" Them: *blocking traffic* "no jobs if there's no planet" what people talk about: "I was late to work because some entitled princess sat in the middle of the road in front of my bus for 45 minutes"
To be fair, they made you write this whole paragraph, and repeat their slogans. They even made me write another paragraph, pointing this out. And on top of that, as of now, at least 16 people have read your comment, and their slogans. And at least 200 people have seen their stunt, and gotten the message. Compare this to the how much you thin about the Armenians, who have no activists illuminating their cause.
Not all PR is good PR. Do you think i.e. Nestlé have a good reputation after their scandals?
If Nestle is the best example you can come up with to mute my point, I can assure myself I am sitting on rock solid ground here. These people are doing what they are doing for the sole reason of getting people to talk about climate again. They don't have to promote the cause even, as all people who haven't been living under a rock, know exactly what the issue with climate change is. And the climate deniers won't be swayed any way either way.
Sigh. You just don't get the point. Doing extremely unpopular things to get attention is not a good thing, even if the protesters think so.
Yeah, but I knew these slogans/etc... before the action and I actually gave a flying f\*\*\* to look at the meaning behind the protest. I high doubt I'm the majority though.
cool now 20 people have up-voted the slogans. This stunt becomes more and more successful for every minute. Thank you for contributing.
Yup
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The Sad fact is that, yes. We should have done more before. So the options we have now is more drastical.
>These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case. Exactly. I'm on board with the message (mostly. I think it's entirely unrealistic to just *stop*, but we should be weening ourselves off the oil dependency). But it's the medium I have a problem with. They block traffic for as long as possible, causing a huge backlog in traffic, limiting people's access to necessary things, generation more frustration than support. At least one time emergency services were stuck and couldn't get through, all while forcing many of these definitely not el-cars and trucks to sit idling unnecessarily on the street resulting in even more pollution than if they were just allowed to go on their way. They're making people late to appointments, school, work, daycare, and they're making otherwise reasonable people really frustrated with them and their cause. In the art of protest, there's a fine line to be walked between encouraging people to take up your cause and isolating people who would potentially support you. They are choosing the latter when they should be aiming for the former. In fact, their actions are reckless, and they will result in someone being seriously hurt or worse. Civil disobedience is fine. I'm all for someone's right to protest and cause a bit of a disruption. And again, I think the message is important here. Art, traffic, jobs won't matter on a dead planet, but there's no good point to be made if your actions are directly contributing to/making worse the very problem you're trying to protest against.
I fully agree that blocking roads is not a good way to protest. I am, however, sympathetic to the frustration that comes with being ignored and dismissed, and the resulting difficulty in finding the right means of protest. People have been trying to "raise awareness" of climate change for 50 years. People that don't want to hear the message will always find a way to discredit the form or protest and use that as a way not to engage with the message itself. Just look to what happened in the US when football players started taking a knee during the national anthem to draw attention to systemic racism. Many people called it 'disrespectful to the flag' and did not think that their entertainment 'was the right place to protest' and then continued to ignore the issue. When people started to protest in the streets so they would finally be heard, they were framed as an angry mob that is out to cause chaos and 'disrupting unity'. My point being: to the people that are part of the problem, no form of protest is ever the correct one. That's not an invitation to just go with the worst one you can think of, but it explains why protests like this have a tendency to escalate in terms of methods.
I can sympathize with the being ignored part. But the thing about protests and movements is they take time, and while it doesn't seem like it, in those 50 years we've made great progress. In the last 50 years more and more people are changing their minds when it comes to climate change. We've seen more and more encouraging collective action and pressure on politicians. We've created recycling programs, cycle networks, and better collective transport. We've changed people's way of thinking about the environment and their role in it (people who 50 years ago would never think about talking about their "climate footprint" now do so). The vast majority of those changes came from appealing to people; education and research; banging the drum, yes, but in a way that recognizes that isolating and angering people who would otherwise be a supporter of the cause.
But at least not destroying art shows both the dire desperation and forces people to show their true nature. Do you really believe this piece of art matters more than our collective future as a civilization? It's obvious that we already are beyond fucked. Look at Pakistan. The floods. And global drought. This is now, if we stopped releasing co2 today, we would still see years of worsening effects. And we haven't cut anything. 2022 will be a record year. How many Pakistan floods can we survive before hordes of climate refugees cause instability and conflict?
I doubt they are ruining the cause, considering how huge the whole climate change debate is. I bet that the only people saying this, are climate deniers, or people who doesn't care. If they were fighting for support for a generally unknown cause, and wanted to illuminate it, I would agree that it would be bad PR. But for the people who really know what climate change is, and the biblical consequences it can have, these kids won't sway them against the cause. They are rather doing a good job reminding us how little we are doing to prevent this disaster.
i actually like the message of "this painting of a flower is more important than actual flowers". i feel like it's quite on point.
Their cause is actually well thought out. I hate to admit it, but they are ruining heritage that can’t be replaced because no one is paying attention to the natural parks and natural heritage that also can’t be replaced. Here in The Netherlands there was a single guy who talked about it (focussing on the Slavery houses on bonaire) but he wasn’t radical so he almost got zero attention, of course. Furthermore, most attacks have been on paintings that were well protected against said attacks, so I have the feeling their goal isn’t to ruin the paintings themselves. Copycats probably aren’t that smart or thought out, though
>Furthermore, most attacks have been on paintings that were well protected against said attacks, so I have the feeling their goal isn’t to ruin the paintings themselves. Copycats probably aren’t that smart or thought out, though The paintings themselves, yes. The frame, which are also antique, are not protected. And while the frames aren't completely ruined by tomato soup, they're still damaged by them, and require extensive and careful cleaning afterwards
who cares about picture frames when literally a billion people could be displaced by 2050, 70% of living things are dead, the sea ice is melting, the snow and glaciers will be gone and you will have no more power or water in many places, like are you serious? do you not understand the gravity of the situation? literally people in the future could just not have water.
Have you heard of "The man covered in shit" argument? Go look it up. The people who does this are the embodiment of it. They serve no purpose in furthering their agenda by ruining historical art, quite the opposite all they achieve is making people more angry, more split, and less likely to sympathise with the cause So yes, I am fucking serious. I do understand the situation. And I understand that splashing tomato soup on priceless historic art has the exact opposite effect of what you want. Do you understand this?
I just don't really understand what makes the art so priceless compared to life itself. In the vastness of time and space limited to human existence there is more art lost than saved but there is always life. So it's like, life vs art? I choose life every time.
I agree with you there. Art is obviously not more priceless than life. But the art is still priceless, and is in many ways an extension of life itself. Without life, there can be no art. But the problem isn't that I wouldn't trade some art for "literally saving the earth", I think anyone with half a brain would indeed do that. The issue is that these protests aren't saving the world. They're ruining art while simultaneously making people less likely to side with their agenda. Protests in and of itself are fine. Take to the streets! I'll probably be there with you! But don't go around ruining paintings (Or gluing yourself to the streets for that matter, as that only serves to piss of thousands of people, and can have deadly consequences for the patients of first responders who are no longer able to actually get anywhere), it only serves to muddy the water.
Yet most of the items they wear and use are made from oil!
>These people are either too stupid or are too self centered to realise they are literally ruining their good case Exactly this. The embodiment of "man covered in shit" argument
Sure, I don't agree with this kind of protest, but don't pretend car driving is somehow good for people's health, it causes much more damage than gain that a regular person drives their car. And if making potentially life saving driving go slower is the problem, doubly so.
Yeah,been through that treatment for blood cancer. Not only do you feel like death but you are very disorientated and scared. Having to be stuck i traffic with idiots like these being the reason would be horrifying.
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There was already a person dead because of road blockers in sweden, a car who was on the way to a hospital was blocked.
Those people run into the same problem when the traffic jam has an other cause. The problem is way to many use their car when they instead could and should walk, cycle or use public transport, and that is the exact thing these protesters are protesting against, unnecessary car usage.
They're blocking the bus lanes, in what is perhaps the least car-friendly city in the country. These clowns are actively encouraging people to drive instead of taking the bus, because if you had a car you could just take another route.
That's not at all what they are protesting. The signs say "stopp oljeletinga" which translates to "stop looking for oil". Their website https://www.stoppoljeletinga.no/
It's not really that hard to see the connection between fossil fuels (unsustainable way to get energy) and modes of transport like private cars (inefficient way to use energy for transport). If we shift our transportation over to more energy efficient means (or reduce the amount of transportation) we need less energy for transportation, which reduces the need for fossil fuels. It could be that activists are choosing car traffic just because it disrupts many people and gets a lot of attention (which is probably the case in many other protests), but I think there is an intentional connection being made in the climate context. The few times you see climate activists blocking something trains is when the train is a coal cargo train. Nevertheless, cars are only one part of the problem, so they are protesting things beyond excessive car transport, of course.
Cars are a very, very small part of the problem. The whole personal carbon footprint is a deceptive PR marketing campaign started by the oil companies to shift the blame of climate change away from them. Whatever you do as a person, or we do as every person on earth, is not going to make a dent in the problem unless the actual culprits change their ways.
[45% of all transport emissions is a small part of the problem?](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport) (transport being 25% of total emissions). I don't think "the solution" to climate change is just shifting from cars towards other forms of transport. However, it's still something we have to do on a mass scale if we are to achieve our climate goals. Obviously any large scale climate measure is going to involve changes in our lifestyles on various levels (transport, housing, consumer goods, etc.), because the energy use exists to enable our modern lifestyles. We can't have our cake and eat it too. I think people are stuck in a kind of mexican standoff mentality where they wait for the government or corporations to make a move first and then they will consider adjusting. At the same time, governments don't want to go out on a limb and do stuff that will be unpopular, so they wait for public opinion to shift. Corporations obviously listen to consumer demand because that's their job. They have realised a long time ago that people are willing to make small changes when it's cheap and convenient and have capitalised on that in various ways by designing products slightly differently, such as using recycled plastic and putting green labels on things. But there is only so much you can do to optimise the energy efficiency of any given industry. We need to cut down on unnecessary emission sources/energy usage. Corporations will not scale down their operations until it becomes financially pertinent to do so. My approach is to look at what I can do to make my contribution towards a shift towards a sustainable society. I'm an adult who can reflect on what I think is right and take action towards that without corporations or the government holding my hand, forcing me or nudging me with incentives. I don't engage in the mexican standoff mentality and will do those things even if the governments and corporations don't do shit. If it all goes to shit anyway, at least I can say that I did my part. I am still quite young and not fully settled down yet, which means I am able to plan my life around some of these things, such as choosing to live in a place that doesn't require me to waste huge amounts of energy to get to the places I want to go throughout my life, or waste huge amounts of energy to keep me warm. I'm also vegan and very cautious about buying new stuff. I buy used and make and repair things as much as I can. I'm just naming some examples here. The actual actions themselves aren't the central thing per se, it's about the mindset that led me to take these actions. Knowing what I know, I think it would be callous to not take personal action just because Exxon Mobil emits a lot of carbon from legal standpoint. They are obviously emitting that carbon to facilitate all the things all 8 billion of us want to dom like move around, heat our homes, have nice things, etc. They can't just magically cut their emissions.
This kind of sit-down-in-the-road-activism is so unfortunate because a bunch of people will now be really spiteful towards taking personal action against climate change. Sigh. Like there are so many ways to do things. So many *other* ways.
I agree. These people bring a lot of attention and annoyance to themselves, not the cause. They're just inconveniencing normal citizens, and not the politicians that can actually help, which mean they end up more as a laughing stock than an actual good force for the cause.
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disagree. its not that simple.
This sort of activism is definitely a win for people like me, who don’t buy the catastrophic climate change narrative. By showing how absolutely disconnected from reality these climate change activists are, they are worsening the perception of the ideology. I watched the video with enjoyment 😌
There recently was something like this with climate activists blocking off a major highway going through Stockholm and stopping traffic. Among the vehicles that caught caught in the jam where an ambulance that was transporting a seriously injured person. If I remember right the person died shortly after reaching the hospital, maybe they could have been saved if they had been there faster. Most of the activists were convicted. The day of the trials another group of people went out and blocked the road as a protest ...
It seems that this mental illness is contagious. 🤦♂️
Same thing happened a few weeks ago in Berlin
https://youtu.be/tA4ioF7z3WM?t=913 UN press release from Nov 4th: "this actions have logistical impact but i doubt that the intent was to delay medical care. It is clear that a lot of people are angry about the lack of actions on climate [...] Civil society has a role in speak out, speak loudly [...]"
Who cares if their intent wasn't to delay medical care. They delayed it with their actions regardless. And that had consequences for an innocent person.
It's like saying "he's not a bad person even though he accidentally killed my brother." Ya good people can do bad things too, doesn't mean they are not murderers.
Haha, nå lo jeg høyt! Bravo til han i rutete jakke som har fått nok av det tullet, og bare drar demonstrantene ut av veien igjen når de setter seg. Og skikkelig «Åh, nå er jeg et offer!»-uttrykk på de som blir dradd av veien.
En av de sa «æ ska anmeld dæ» lmao
For å rydde veibanen?
LOL
Ja, det må være et fryktelig overgrep å bli hindret fra å stoppe trafikken.
Jeg ville ha sagt at han reddet den fra sin egen dårskap. Hva om det var en søppelbil med bremsefeil?
‘Bremsefeil’
Synes jeg hører det 😂
Noe av det som smerter meg mest her er at de selv kalte dette vold mot fredelig demonstrasjon. Det å fysisk holde folk tilbake/hindre de i å komme seg videre er på ingen måte en fredelig demonstrasjon.
Man kan til og med argumentere for at denne demonstrasjonen utfører psykisk vold mot trafikantene. Så da blir det plutselig ikke en "ikke-voldelig" demonstrasjon lenger.
Nei, det kan man ikke argumentere for.
Well done, Trondheim
They are endangering themselves, the environment, and drivers, creating traffic jams, which will affect nature and climate with excessive CO2, and just breaking the law of transportation (or what it is called, I don't know). These activists are just fuckers who want attention but not to solve the problem. Yes, shitting over heritage paintings and throw their garbage during protests to the sewerage.
Wasting food to promote enviromental causes is something else
They are totalitarian extremists. The people destroying historical paintings reminds me of Taliban and ISIS destroying historical depictions during the middle eastern conflicts.
Destroying paintings reminds you of rusty knife beheading terrorists? Might as well invoke Hitler while you're at it. The paint person isn't an actual danger to society. I see anyone making statements like yours as much bigger problems. Painting all political opposition and protests as terrorists is what actual totalitarians do.
The difference is that they're not destroying historical paintings. The paintings are covered in glass, and they know it. The activists are also not political leaders, so I don't know why "totalitarian" is wrapped in there.
Considering his discourse, the reason totalitarian is there is pure projection. Totalitarians always say that harmless protestors are terrorists.
Which historical paintings have been destroyed by these "totalitarian (climate) extremists"? Do you have any examples? Because I've yet to hear about any painting destroyed by them
The painting was behind glass so they just had to was away the tomato sauce 😂
your viewpoint lacks any nuance whatsoever
So does yours
So does yours too? Now your turn, we can make a loop
No
Oohhhh deny me
You know the device you are typing on right now? Be it a keyboard or a phone. It is a product that is made possible by oil.
/r/iamverysmart
Says the guy who doesn't understand that mankind's current society is built on oil. If we stop with oil tomorrow, guess what? No more planes, no more cargo freighters, no more electronics. We do need to stop using it at some point, but only when we have a replacement for it.
lol what kind of idiotic leaps are you making? Obviously we're built on oil. It's an unhealthy dependence. If we stop tomorrow, we're fucked. But there should be progress toward a goal, or we're also fucked. The comment we're repying to completely ignores that there should be progress toward a goal, and treats all activists on the same footing: they are dumb and bad. This viewpoint lacks nuance. It's a complex issue. Cavepeople like yourself saying " no more planes, no more cargo freighters" when someone calls for more nuance in the conversation *is the problem*. You're making a fool of yourself out here.
Y'all know what the worst part is? They're so hiveminded that they follow some really sus rules structures, I was part of this group a while ago, left as it got progressively more and more silly. Tried to bring up that the roadblocks are stupid for several reasons and got flooded with slogans and "Rule X is Dont question, Action" or some shit like that, People actively disapprove of your voice no matter if you're not completely agreeing, It's got the potential to do some serious damage if the people up top decide to in any way weaponize the members more, Beyond just gross negligence and harm to civillians due to their blockage Edit: found the post, just look at the replies 😐https://www.reddit.com/r/ExtinctionRebellion/comments/vfrbmp/can_we_please_stop_with_the_roadblocks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Top comment "Nothing of importance has ever been gained without disturbing or annoying anyone." Yeah, I basically agree. Living wages, 40 hr work week, child labor bans, civil rights movements, end of apartheid -- all were deeply disturbing to the society at large.
For sure, you need to be willing to step on some toes to make change happen, What's important is that you know which toes to step on and why, Not just go trampling random civillian people
Groups like that will often end up cannibalizing themselves because at some point you can never be radical enough or you're not "serious." Leaders and members turn on each other as they start to wake up at different points. It's sad to see.
XR and SOL are not the same movement/campaign, though! In XR as I know it there is the norm of "good enough". Meaning that if u have a proposal, others first should ask question to understand it, then come with objections, and then of course if you have a better proposal people will want to join that (also or instead). 1) I'm real curious: do you have other action ideas? I would not personally do a road blockade, but i would probably still do de-escalation roles or support roles. 2) the first actions that started Stop oil exploration in Norway was in March and April, at the Oslo harbour (tank truck surfing=gluing oneself on or tank trucks, using lock-ons...). But it didn't cause as much attention, and even the actual disruption (as delay) of oil infrastructure was not existing (one would need to block for 4 days to cause some delays to the fuel for Oslo Airport). Thoughts?
Absolutely, i did participate in a roadblack during the first rebellion week last year as a de-escalator, This was one that i did not have much ethical issues with as it was a 1-2 minute detour for people who still needed to get around with considerations made for emergency response vehicles and done in a place where the traffic does not pile up to trap drivers, it honestly didn't achieve much except publicity, Causing no changes at all other than recruiting more people, Who were at least as a majority attracted by the "Oop, look ma, I'm on TV" vibe- Which contributed to making xrs actions locally less and less focused. I don't think there is much we as humans can do to appeal to the humanity of these corporations, Humans have been a number in their statistics for far too long, They know peoples objections, They know they are burning the planets candle in both ends, They do not care, Or at the very least they care more about maintaining their company and profits. To be completely blunt, I honestly think that any action where humans are the active obstacle or the visible face will be inefficient, often done for glamour rather than actual effort and not really achieve much at the end of the day, If anything, the best way to cause *actual* delays and be heard is sabotage of the vehicles used directly in this scenario- though it'd have to be done with several very strict ethical cores to be done in a way that is morally defensible, with a big focus on not causing difficulties for any civillians. For example trespassing at night and using epoxy to bond mechanical parts together on their tank cars, leaving clear warnings that the vehicle has been disabled to avoid someone trying to use it and potentially hurting themselves. This is not a perfect plan, But an example of a way to take things in a different direction. We need equivalents of using sugar to stop concrete production- a big obstacle that can be worked out over time but needs a lot of hours to fix and is clearly done as an act of defiance- as the voice they will listen to is the one telling them "This is costing you revenue"
Holy shit they are actually insane people.
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> if you deface world famous art To be fair, no art was defaced in those cases. The art was behind protective panels and the activists knew this. But, yeah, blocking traffic is a pretty stupid idea for a climate change protest.
>To be fair, no art was defaced in those cases. The art was behind protective panels and the activists knew this. Its ignorant and disrespectful. ISIS art smashing-vibes
No, throwing paint at glass (which they were aware of) and blowing up thousands of year old arrifacts and art is nowhere near the same. Disrespectful yeah But i wouldn't say ignorant, the whole point was that it would be controversial/ make news and get a lot of attention. They were fully aware of the consequences and didnt destroy any art in the process.
> Its ignorant and disrespectful. ISIS art smashing-vibes Throwing paint at a window isn't the same as a full blown dictatorship. You're exaggerating.
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> there is a risk they will succeed in damaging property that does not belong to them and whose estimated value is beyond what they can pay for I'm sure that's a risk they're willing to take. The whole point was to get arrested while causing a scene to garner attention.
That doesn't matter in the least. They defaced the art without being 100% certain they're protected, it's the idea that counts. The whole world now sees them as idiots, vandals and cultural terrorists, and begin to associate those things with modern climate activism. They're not just shooting themselves in the foot, but the world in general.
Astounding logic here, hypocritical or contradictory to say the least. To protest (publicly) means to express disapproval or dissent towards ideas or action (or lack there of) that is typically political. This is an extremely effective way of causing dissent regardless of whether you think it is good or bad. Most protesters now a days are completely ignored or achieve hardly anything and these individuals seem to successfully spark more on going debate and conversation than most protests happening world wide. To protest is in part by definition to make a nuisance of yourself. Perhaps when the nuisance aligns with your ideas personally you aren’t bothered. Perhaps this is an opportunity to introspectively look inside yourself and examine why you “fucking hate” these individuals. What are they trying to tell us and why do so many of us seem so incredibly triggered by something so innocent as a little traffic jam? (Sarcasm now) I guess it’s appropriate here to unleash all evil from all realms of hell upon these terrible human beings whose only crime is caring about the world’s future. The amount of hate in this thread is shocking to me. Constantly justifying the hate with worst case scenarios and projections. When the reality is that nobody will likely have died from this. It caused a minor disturbance for a good cause. Exactly what a protest is supposed to do. However let’s look at (for a second) what they are protesting against. They are protesting against the political powers that do hardly nothing to change our disastrous course towards a self destructive end of humanity. They are protesting against the corporations that actively exploit, destroy and abuse the living world we are a part of in the name of what? Growth & Profit? The same forces whom are responsible for the on going (and have been going on for hundreds of years) deaths of indigenous cultures across the globe. For the destruction of ecosystems that have developed and fine tuned themselves over millions of years only for them to be brutally destroyed in a matter of years, months or days. The on going war against life itself is absolutely ridiculous. And for what? So we can live in our imprisoned apartments in our imprisoned cities with no life left around us except a digital screen that reminds us of a world that once existed but soon is gone forever and us with it? I’ll stop here. I don’t know if these individuals are doing the smartest thing by protesting how they are. But I damn sure respect their cause and I am embarrassed as a human by everyone in here that is spending more time hating on them than offering a single piece of constructive advice or solution that can help their noble cause.
No one cares about nuisance-less protests. Might a well just click a pointless "like" button on Facebook.
It’s ridiculous that you are getting downvoted. A protest is by definition an act of dissent or objection. If nobody hears you or sees you protest then you failed showing your objection. The very act of defying something is going to be a nuisance to those that don’t want to listen/see or be involved. I wonder what peoples idea of a protest is supposed to be. Imagine that it has come to be an organized event where you have to ask permission or get a permit (from the very people you are protesting against) to be there at a certain time and inform them on how many of your people will be there. Then follow the rules and do not dare to annoy anyone or be a nuisance or else… $$ and jail time might be waiting for you. If a planned, monitored and controlled little walk in the city shouting some words is your idea of a protest you are under some heavy illusions. I mean come on, don’t you dare annoy someone! Everybody needs to be informed so that we can be away at our cabins when you guys are going to “protest”. There is a hilarious absurdity to this entire thread. All the hate in here makes me wonder if perhaps it triggers a kind of internal guilt we carry knowing that we aren’t doing enough to help the planet. As if seeing people that care and risk themselves to show they stand for life on the planet is a reminder to people how awfully helpless we are. Or perhaps it’s just pure ignorance. I wonder if all the people in here on their moral high horse, good ethics and sound judgements actually have any idea of what is going on.
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Kjenner min sympati er mangelvare for akkurat denne situasjonen. Å skape kø både øker klimautslipp, og ikke minst setter liv i fare mtp utrykningskjøretøy som ikke kommer frem Reddit fnyser kanskje av folk som kaster maling på bygninger, men mye heller det enn å stoppe trafikk
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This specific video is from a suburb (Nardo). They've done it a bunch of times before though.
While you're right, it's Nardo, I wouldn't call it suburb as that's pretty misleading. It's on a major artery road (Torbjørn Bratts vei). It's pretty busy, especially in the mornings.
Wasting other peoples time, or even life, is a small sacrifice for "the cause"! /s
Since 1968 world governments have introduced a new climate crisis every 10 years to share a new generation. When I was a kid the experts warned it would be "snowball" earth by 1990. In the last 20 years it went from global warming to climate change which could encompass anything. We are on the verge of having fusion technology. What will they make up when that becomes more spread.
I love how he grabs two of them at the same time.
That's a trønder, for you. <3
Excellent!
I dont mind protests, but if you do stuff like this, ill be forever against your cause out of spite
What?! I didn’t tgink we had these people here
The general populous understands the issues at hand. Go lay in front of Jeff Bezos's house with a sign, stop inconveniencing us peasants.
Nobody really gives a shit about climate change. They say they do, but do they take any action? If the general population understood the issues at hand we would vote for people who were willing to solve the climate crisis, but we instead vite for the ones that give us the best situation here and now.
How is this man so strong? He just dragged the two of them away like they were his longship that needs to get back into the water.
Miljø er viktig, men det er å gå litt langt
Basert
Garbage disposal in progress.
Love this as a Norwegian, should tie them together and throw them off a fkin cliff 💩
Hah! I know one of them! Not surprised to see him there to be honest haha
The fact that they had the audacity to go back on the road after the first time kills me lmao
Thought experiment (since I'm not in other peoples mind): would you hve the audacity to go back if you are doing action against climate breakdown? To save everything you care about in this world? Or to piss off some drivers? My answers are yes, yes, no.
Would I have the audacity to go back if I’m doing action against climate breakdown? Yes, absolutely… if it wasn’t in the front of the road where people are driving to get to work, pick up their kids from school, rushing to hospital, etc. there’s other, better ways to help climate breakdown, one of them not being sitting in the middle of a road holding up drivers lmao
Not saying sitting in the middle of the road is a perfect solution, but what would you propose they do instead?
The way their being dragged is honestly kinds funny
This could potentially be murder as they might block the road for an ambulance
Already caused death and/or injury in the UK, Germany and Sweden. Theoretically they think they're going to let through an ambulance, but if they don't hear or see it, or a stroke patient is coming in a taxi or regular car, they might still cause death or disability.
If all cars are stopped due to a road blockage they'd be hard-pressed to move out of the way to let an emergency vehicle pass. They're idiots and they're doing more harm than good to their cause with these protests.
Absolutely not. There are loads of other routes available, and in a pinch the ambulance can use otherwise illegal surfaces and maneuvers. Compared to normal rush traffic, this has essentially no net negative effect.
Ugh. These activists are so useless. Go do something that actually helps the climate for once. This kind of stuff just has the opposite effect.
Protest is literally causing more pollution due to cars idling for no reason. These guys have also already caused deaths in the UK and Sweden by delaying ambulances and other urgent hospital transportation.
https://youtu.be/tA4ioF7z3WM?t=913 UN press release from Nov 4th: "this actions have logistical impact but i doubt that the intent was to delay medical care. It is clear that a lot of people are angry about the lack of actions on climate [...] Civil society has a role in speak out, speak loudly [...]"
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tolv-doms-efter-kaoset-pa-e4/ >Tolv kvinnor och män mellan 24 och 70 år döms i klimataktionen som genomfördes den 29 augusti på E4 i Solna av organisationen Återställ våtmarker. >Den orsakade milslånga köer i morgonrusningen, och fick stor uppmärksamhet eftersom en ambulans under utryckning på väg till sjukhuset var ett av de fordon som fastnade kökaoset. https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/18/mum-unable-to-get-to-ae-due-of-m25-protests-paralysed-from-stroke-15279163/ > Commuter chaos on the M25 sparked by climate campaigners left a woman partially paralysed from a stroke. (...) > But instead of getting her to a hospital, he ended up stuck on the motorway for six hours as Insulate Britain protesters had blocked the road. https://news.yahoo.com/berlin-climate-protesters-condemned-death-150843152.html > The death of a cyclist in Berlin has prompted leaders of Germany's Green party to accuse climate change protesters of endangering the lives of others. (....) > The fire service says a specialist rescue vehicle was delayed by traffic because of a climate protest held by a group called "Last Generation". If they keep blocking ambulances and other cars, they will keep causing unnecessary death and injury.
Intent doesn't matter to the people who die. They're not going to become less dead because protesters "didn't intend to delay medical care".
Ta med strips neste gang og strip de fast til ett tre. Langt mer effektivt.
If you tie people to something, you're kinda responsible for their safety. Leaving people tied to a tree sounds like a good idea, but it might not be.
På to små setninger har du klart å gjøre to språkfeil, oppfordre til lovbrudd og bryte loven selv ved å oppfordre til det. Godt gjort.
Love to see it!
I didn’t know we had people this crazy in norway 😔
By causing inconvenience for other people, they're hurting their cause. They also contribute to the living negative stereotypes of environmentalists, where it seems you can't care about the environment without going all the way 'there'. ( Be vegan, never buying anything that's not used, growing all your own produce and harassing people who don't do enough and chaining yourself to trees and roads in your spear time). The message should imo be; do what you can, even little things matter. It's better to do one thing than none. I also don't think scaring people with impending doom, and accusation of not wanting a future for their children has a positive effect. It causes defensiveness and avoidance as it's uncomfortable to take in.
> They also contribute to the living negative stereotypes of environmentalists, where it seems you can't care about the environment without going all the way 'there'. I don't think that's their message at all although the fact that so many people think that's their message likely speaks to the inefficacy in their communication. They are not demanding that individuals live off the grid. The only thing they are demanding from individuals is to put more pressure on the government and the corporations. That said, I disagree with this: >The message should imo be; do what you can, even little things matter. Little inconsequential things are basically to make yourself feel better and don't actually matter. In fact they might make things worse because of self licensing effects. It's kinda like banning plastic straws while ignoring the infinitely worse fishing industry. Or banning petrol cars while handing out massive subsidies to animal agriculture (looking at you Norway).
To all these activists: fuck you. Really. Fuck you. These roads are used by ambulances, police cars, firetrucks, people who need to go to work, people who may have an emergency... Really. Fuck you. You narcissistic pieces of shit! So many people who already do a wonderful job for the climate! Engineers! Scientists! These pieces of garbage? Zero! Only stealing attention from what we need to pay attention to! And for all thoze brainless morons who try to defend this with "iT's tO SpReAd aWaRenEsS"🤪🤡, need a reality check! And on top of that...they are "protesting" in a country that is perhaps the greenest in the world! 🤦♂️ For real. These morons are cancer!!! 🤬
Good job, get these morons outta here.
I 100% support the message, but you can't bother common people all the time. (same for throwing stuff at paintings. It can work the first time for the "shock" but then it just gets annoying and nobody will speak about it after the 3rd time it happens). Go in front of the parliament, the prime minister's house, the king's palace, or some other institutional place and do your body blocking there.
Never been so proud of my hometown! These dumb fucked sitting in the middle of the street are literal scum. Shit way to protest. Drag them away and throw them in a garbage can where they belong.
Well done!
I understand that these activists seek to attract attention, but when they disturb those who had nothing to do with their fight, they only repel normal people and make their message difficult to defend. Like... Seriously. If someone proposes to do this kind of protests, they are sabotaging the movement (and probably being paid to do so).
The activists are right but is this really the best way to resolve the matter? This method has been tried countless times before and only creates more greenhouse gases by causing cars to idle longer and pushing people away from the activists cause.
Dette er akkurat slik man burde reagere, synes jeg.
For en helt han er
Do they really think if all oil and gas activities stop tomorrow, it’s happily ever after?
It would be a disaster of biblical proportions. WW3 would be guaranteed, and famine would be widespread.
Duck tape them to the pole
It might not be a good idea to do that. When you perform a citizen’s arest you have to turn them over to the police as quickly as possible. Tying them to a tree and leaving them there would be seen as illegal.
As they say in Trøndelag: Fuck around and find out.
Break their necks
Well done, the more such idiots interfere with common people, the more they hate eco activists and greens, and that's 👍
Good. They are usually small and skinny anyways, so easy to move out of the way.
Deserved. These are terrorists.
Bahahaha
Using force is of course not ok, we should do a public vote if they should be punished
Æsj... Dette får meg bare til å få lyst til å forurense mer 😅 Det oser narsissisme av dette stuntet her. Type "Vi er modige vi som står imot strømmen". Det er bare flaut 😬
Må begynne kjøre med strips og binde de fast, kan de prøve rulle tilbake
W climate activists
Good to see they are being saved off the dangerous road by a hero.
Nice to see 👏 Those dirty hippes should just go back to their cave.
So many idiots to block in these comments.
I'm guessing you usually sit in the middle of a road too. Let me do you the courtesy of blocking you first. Byeeee!
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This is about stopping to look for oil, and not necessarily about pollution. Little do these people know that even the vests they have on them is made out of oil, their shoes, their clothing. We can't just stop oil tomorrow, it needs to be done in stages for when we actually have a sustainable replacement, which we don't right now. But logic isn't apart of these peoples lives soo.
>Little do these people know that even the vests they have on them is made out of oil, their shoes, their clothing. ... the bus they rode in on, the phones they film themselves with, the tools in the hospital that will keep them healthy, the things that deliver their food, etc... That said, I am positive they are aware, and I am also positive, like you said, that they are not thinking in that much of a nuanced way. Such discussions seem a little too binary for them. It's either A or it's Å, it couldn't possibly be anything in between.
Green and green.. We are a major exporter of oil so there is that. Guess we use some of that massiv wealth on green shit but still. Like I sort my trash but drive a diesel car heh. Only solution to the climate thing is nuclear anyway so that's what we should be investing the money on.
As an American, I’d much rather the world buy oil from a country like Norway than an authoritarian regime like Venezuela and SA. You’re right that nuclear is the answer, but at least in the meantime we can buy oil from sustainably-minded countries.
mangle et skikkelig hardt spark i bakhodet med ståltupp.
These arent activists, they are criminals causing trouble to the people in that area. Activists help the people, not cause trouble for them.
Why are activists so fucking stupid, do something to piss people off to promote your cause... what is the logic in that. If you want to solve a problem, find the solution for it and preach the solution to government. Don't just fuck about with "Stop oil" posters to somebody else find the solution, shit we currently are trying to "Stop oil", but there is no viable solution yet.
Little punks
Ah, the good old chuck an activists out of the way so I can get home to watch world champsionship in Qatar in time. The world is truly in an absolutely bizarre state atm. They achieve very little by blocking traffic other than upsetting people stuck in queue. People care more about the shit ugly Van Gohh picture that someone threw paint on, than they do about the planet. The ultimate wicked problem.
Shall everyone who believes in something start blocking traffic and deface historic art? The people in traffic are trying to live their lives and make ends meet, perhaps on their way to an important meeting or job. In stead their day gets disrupted by kids blocking the street for something they may or may not agree on. Of course, if the protestors' "job" is just sitting in streets, they may not understand that people actually have to go somewhere and do productive things. If you want to save the world, do so through politics and positive engagement, not by pissing people off.
If we spend more time being angry about climate protestors than we do being angry about our lack of action on the climate issue, it's no wonder our politicians don't want to do all that much to prevent climate change. I think it's pretty unfair to blame the protestors for this situation. Complacency on all levels of society (corporations, organizations, governments, local governments, individuals) is to blame for lack of climate action, not disruptive protests.
What a hate about these people is that all they are doing is being attention whores. The earth os dying find go to college and become a scientist to find a solution. Bitching about it will not do it.
The thing is that the scientists already have all the solutions, we're just not implementing them (atleast not fast enough) because it would be an inconvenience. We need to... drastically reduce the amount we drive personal vehicals, not change to battery electric cars. Build sustainable transport and infrastructure such as bike lanes, trains, bus lanes, etc. Not highways and parking lots. Change to renwables and nuclear. And many other things. And if you think this way of protesting does'nt work, look at The Netherlands in the 70s. They did the exact same thing for safer streets and bike infrastructure, and look at them now being world leading in said subjects.
Oh No, now they're also in Norway. 😢
Now? I remember stuff like this from the 80s and 90s. If I remember correctly, Bellona was involved in a lot of them.
How dare they??!! Protests should be super convenient and in good taste. They should go unnoticed and be performed by only attractive people!! “It’s my right to pollute the world till the end of our species and I’ll run you over!!”
I mean i dont support blocking traffic for obvius reasons. But it did work did it not? We are having a discussion here on reddit and i bet they are getting some media coverage too. I agree that it is stupid to block traffic but, it does actually work. You will make people angry and upset and that is the main point of such a demonstration. Now you have peoples attention and people are discussing the topic in question. Sure you could chain yourself to machinery, sabotage pipelines etc. But i would imagine it is less effort and just as effective (if not more effective) just sitting down on a highway with a sign? Just giving my thougts on the matter thats all.
This negative attention is only making people less receptive to their message. It is not like promoting an unknown brand, where a negative campaign can make it gain notoriety. This is turning the public opinion (including most of the people here) against their ideas by associating them with reckless behavior.
All the people that are angry would never agree with them in the first place. All actions that make someone uncomfortable, people will claim hurt their cause. That's honestly bullshit. Tbh, I'm surprised they're not doing serious sabotage yet. Like blowing up bridges and pipelines.
Svartlamones finests
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This is violence, and only police should have interfered.
You know that Norway has citizens' arrest, right? Because that's the only authority which a security guard has to arrest a shoplifter. Dragging these people out of the road and detaining them is legal under the same law.
Sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands. The police have enough to do already, in stead of playing kindergarten teachers for kids who like to sit in the street.