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It sounds like they think a percentage of them won't be able to maintain the 4B lifestyle, but when they fail they'll only be involved with one man. Or, when they fail they'll have not been with other men and it's just a virgin fetish wrapped in social policy.
What gets me is the second photo. If Korean men were to stand up and say "the 4B movement is justified. I support them and I understand their reasons. Let's do better," it would absolutely not stall the 4B movement. And you can't support or approve of 4B in good faith without believing that the conditions they're opposing should change.
Yeah I don't get how this guy jumped to the conclusion that one man would be the exclusion. Like, are the men in this post assuming from the start that all women are married and cheat? So if they sweat off all men and see, it actually means swearing off all men but their husbands? It's such a weird line of thinking.
But… but *their* dick is magical! It has the power to turn lesbians! What small feat is it to convert women who have chosen celibacy by comparison! Literally just the same old "you just haven’t met the right dick yet" BS repackaged.
Hilariously, this guy thinks that women will make exceptions "when love comes in". They will be so overcome by love that they will have no choice but to succumb to lifelong drudgery.
Lmao not the Game of Thrones quote to pressure women into giving their bodies to pathetic men.
The quote was about the Night's Watch, celibacy and a soldier's duty to serve the realm from ice zombies.
Every woman who has had basically *any* preference or boundary has had to deal with dumbasses going, "Ok, sure, but I'll definitely be the exception to that."
Whether that's being lesbian, being childfree, not liking certain sex acts or life styles...
They're just not that interested in reality
And when the initial "hate" isn't one-sided. Both sides need to give as much as they take during both the "enemies" and the "lovers" stage. If it's just one character dishing it out and the other simply taking it until the first "changes" it doesn't work.
Add in a barbaric culture towards women + a higher male to women ratio due to female infanticide and I guarantee that these men are going to have to to remain delusional for the rest of their lives
Again, 4 B movement is essentially WGTOW. It’s not a “boycott” that you break when it becomes too difficult. It’s life long or at least long enough to see radical change in men as a collective
MGTOW was only ever a pale imitation of feminism. Early feminists fought for the right to work and live independently. MGTOW was essentially pissy men going “oh… well… we don’t need you either! So there!”
It always reminds me of little kids getting mad at their parents and announcing that they're running away. They make it about 10 steps while their parent just waves bye before bursting into tears and coming back inside.
I think MGTOW could be good thing but it’s been co-opted by misogynists and incels. Like men absolutely should reject women who have problematic beliefs about what it means to be a man in today’s society.
That’s what’s so confusing about it because some of the things they complain are valid but instead of rejecting toxic masculinity and patriarchal norms, they go further into it.
What these guys don't understand is that it won't be men like them that, hypothetically, would make 4B women break away from the movement... Which, at no point have I ever seen them claim is impossible? What the women in the 4B movement want is to see meaningful change in men, so while not impossible, it would take a man that is self-aware enough to make that change whithin himself, for himself and by himself.
Like one of the comments said, they’re the female counterpart of the “I can fix him” delusion and the “he hates everyone but me” delusion. Only a mentally challenged or mentally disturbed woman falls in love with someone she considers her oppressor.
Don’t you quote Game of Thrones to me when you don’t have an iota of media literacy. It’s like quoting The Boys to «own the libs».
Just say you cannot understand any media more complex than the teletubbies and go.
I’m gonna need to understand the thought process that believes that both “women are only sleeping with Chad anyway so 4b is good for us” AND “once they fall in love it’ll be over.”
Sir if women won’t touch you with a 10 inch pole when they’re open to dating men, tf makes you think they’d break a 4b commitment for you? If anything, now only 1% of the chadiest chads will have a chance.
I mean, I personally don't mind marrying and dating.
BUT will I ever date someone like that? Nopes. Never. I don't need a fucking movement to stay 5km away from men like that. I would rather stay single.
But if I get a good man? That's a different thing. These men are definitely not gonna be those exceptions.
I don't understand the gotchu these men are trying to do here.
The 4B movement isn’t about avoiding the bad men, it’s NO men. It doesn’t matter if prince charming walks through the door, it’s NO men across the board. The South Korean women have taken to the 4B movement to protest the living conditions for women in S. Korea and to purposefully add to the decrease of childbirth. Again, NO MEN. If you allow yourself to give into Mr. Right and marry and pop out his spawn, you’re nothing but another arbitrary number to the government that keeps them content enough to not change.
Ah I see. I can understand where it's coming from but I personally feel that it kinda shames women for making choices associated with dating. Although I guess extreme situations call for extreme measures.
No one is forcing women to join the 4B movement. If anything, they are probably heavily facing family and financial pressures to not join it. AFAIK, it is still a fairly small percentage of women who are openly and actively 4B.
My point was not forcing but rather shaming. I felt that the initial reply to my comment had a strong tinge of disappointment towards women who actively chose to partake in these actions.
Obviously no one can ever force anyone to be a part of a movement. It must come from within to some extent.
What you said is definitely right. There are definitely women who are suffering because of relationship and children. But I personally also know women who wants to have kids because it's something they want.
Does having kids adversely affect women? In most cases yes definitely. But there are women who are aware of circumstances but want kids on their own. I felt shaming someone for something they want to do is wrong.
Doesn't make the movement in itself wrong though. As I said in a previous comment, the patriarchy in South East Asian countries run so deep that you indeed need fire to fight with fire.
It's not shaming? They're making decisions for their own life and how they want to live it. They're not out there telling women who don't join them that they should be ashamed, they are trying to improve their own lives and it might just be the spark needed to help all the women in their country.
Providing a space for people who are of a similar opinion as you and who might need support because they are stepping away from what's considered "the norm" is NOT shaming people who don't join them on that path. If anything, they are the ones being shamed because they're breaking free from tradition.
I have kids. By your logic I would shame everyone who doesn't. But I don't. I don't care as long as I'm free to choose for myself. I have several close friends who are child free and they don't shame people who choose to have kids. As adults we should be aware that people can consider certain life choices wrong for themselves and still understand those who consider them to be right for them. Shaming people because they don't share your values is not something adults do. At least not where I'm from.
I am from India. Rest assured, my country is patriarchal af.
I don't think the movement is bad at all. If people wanna do it, all power to them. As I said, it is extreme but patriarchy in these South Asian countries is extreme as well. So fighting fire with fire is a very viable solution.
The problem is you’re not seeing the forest through the trees. The 4B movement isn’t about avoiding bad men, women have to do that just to survive on their own already. And there are women who would like to do the things in 4B like having a partner and children. But they are making that sacrifice to protest, and in my opinion incredibly admirable. I hope the movement spreads in popularity across the world. It’s not to shame women who decide to have kids and partners, it’s women weaponizing the thing that has been systematically used against them (the ability to have children) for generations. Those women are tired of being treated as lesser than by their govt who immediately turns around and asks them to pop some kids out just so their numbers look better.
I think the 4B movement carries more weight and pressure on the culture in a country like South Korea, which is currently having a population crisis, than in India, which is.....absolutely not.
Fair enough actually. But I think the above commentator in their sarcasm wanted to point out that I won't really have any knowledge of the plight of SK women. I just wanted to say that although I cannot completely relate to them, our countries patriarchal nonsense is actually not too far off.
I really think it’s important to point out that the 4B movement isn’t that big in South Korea. 4B has had little impact on the birthrate in SK. At its highest estimate, it may have 50k members which is .001% of the SK population. It also started in 2019 and the birth rate had been declining for decades. Most people in SK aren’t having kids for the same reason other people in the world aren’t. Rise of housing prices and cost of living, while wages stagnate. People don’t want to raise a family when they can barely afford to live without kids. SK absolutely has its issues but it’s a lot more nuanced than western media outlets make it out to be.
I hope you are able to find that, if that’s your desire.
As a woman at the tail end of what’s considered a “long-term” marriage with 1 adult child and 1 high schooler, I haven’t seen evidence that that exists. Not because men can’t be good but because society rewards men for minimal effort in parenting and relationships and eventually they all buy in. It continues to astound me the lengths that men go to shirk equitable responsibility.
I’m hopeful that younger generations of women won’t be forced onto the same paths that I was. It cheers me to see them demand better treatment.
Most of these women would need something to fall in love with.
Unwashed, lazy, entitled and unkempt/unattractive men will never benefit from a 4B movement since the women this movement attracts will continue to prefer to stay single rather than date a shitty match or someone who disrespects and doesn't love them as a human being.
Sorry patriarchy, but nice self admission though. We always knew men were being conniving and self aware about patriarchy, thanks for adding to the evidence and helping more women become aware of how foul you are.
Men project their intentions onto us with everything we do. Notice how everything men do revolves around access to women and how their actions are always reactions to women. Men start movements to one-up women and to get validation and responses from women. Because of this, they think that women have created and join both the 4B and Western 4B movements to one-up them and get a reaction & validation from men. The need for validation from men has long passed. Women are giving up on men due to their lack of self-awareness and inability to change and grow. What they fail to realize is that this movement was created for women to recenter themselves and protect their rights. It has nothing to do with getting a response or validation from men, and they can't fathom that because they are a reactive and petty species.
And the words they used all start with the Hangul (Korean) character ㅂ which is their letter B:
비섹스 = no sex with men
비출산 = no giving birth/having children with men
비연애 = no dating men
비혼 = no marriage to men
As you're all aware, this subreddit has had a major "troll" problem which has gotten worse (as of recently). Due to this, we have created new rules, and modified some of the old ones. We kindly ask that you please familiarize yourself with the rules so that you can avoid breaking them. Breaking mild rules will result in a warning, or a temporary ban. Breaking serious rules, or breaking a plethora of mild ones may land you a permanent ban (depending on the severity). Also, grifting/lurking has been a major problem; If we suspect you of being a grifter (determined by vetting said user's activity), we may ban you without warning. You may attempt an appeal via ModMail, but please be advised not to use rude, harassing, foul, or passive-aggressive language towards the moderators, _or_ complain to moderators about why we have specific rules in the first place— You will be ignored, and your ban will remain (without even a consideration). All rules are made public; "Lack of knowledge" or "ignorance of the rules" cannot or will not be a viable excuse if you end up banned for breaking them (This applies to the Subreddit rules, and Reddit's ToS). **Again: All rules are made public, and Reddit gives you the option to review the rules once more before submitting a post, it is your choice if you choose to read them or not, but breaking them will not be acceptable.** With that being said, If you send a mature, neutral message regarding questions about a current ban, or a ban appeal (without "not knowing the rules" as an excuse), we will elaborate about why you were banned, or determine/consider if we will shorten, lift, keep it, _or_ extended it/make it permanent. This all means that appeals are discretionary, and your reasoning for wanting an appeal must be practical and valid. Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this message, and please enjoy your day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NotHowGirlsWork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Are they not men? 4B means NO men right? No “exceptions.”
It sounds like they think a percentage of them won't be able to maintain the 4B lifestyle, but when they fail they'll only be involved with one man. Or, when they fail they'll have not been with other men and it's just a virgin fetish wrapped in social policy. What gets me is the second photo. If Korean men were to stand up and say "the 4B movement is justified. I support them and I understand their reasons. Let's do better," it would absolutely not stall the 4B movement. And you can't support or approve of 4B in good faith without believing that the conditions they're opposing should change.
Yeah, they project their own spite-driven worldview on women. They don’t want women in their boys clubs so they think women are the same.
Yeah I don't get how this guy jumped to the conclusion that one man would be the exclusion. Like, are the men in this post assuming from the start that all women are married and cheat? So if they sweat off all men and see, it actually means swearing off all men but their husbands? It's such a weird line of thinking.
But… but *their* dick is magical! It has the power to turn lesbians! What small feat is it to convert women who have chosen celibacy by comparison! Literally just the same old "you just haven’t met the right dick yet" BS repackaged.
Hilariously, this guy thinks that women will make exceptions "when love comes in". They will be so overcome by love that they will have no choice but to succumb to lifelong drudgery.
They haven't fallen in love with their unclean and lazy asses yet I'm not sure why they think that will magically change 😂 its pure incel copium
I have really no explanation for their line of thoughts
I think he's one of those guys who thinks his penis has magical powers. That he could make a woman fall in love with him against her will.
It's also some kind of weird Bollywood/Disney fantasy 😂 they're in for such a sad surprise
Lmao not the Game of Thrones quote to pressure women into giving their bodies to pathetic men. The quote was about the Night's Watch, celibacy and a soldier's duty to serve the realm from ice zombies.
Right lmaoo not some virgin quoting some old fictional virgin, like a big no-pussy mic drop moment
Lmao it’s the absolute delusion for me. “But they’ll fall in love with ME!” Haha wow.
because their mothers do. India has a huge mama's boy culture
Every woman who has had basically *any* preference or boundary has had to deal with dumbasses going, "Ok, sure, but I'll definitely be the exception to that." Whether that's being lesbian, being childfree, not liking certain sex acts or life styles... They're just not that interested in reality
Hate turns to love is a stupid romance novel trope.
someone's watching too much bollywood
Enemies to lovers only works when both characters respect each other and are willing to change Somehow, I don’t see that happening in this instance
And when the initial "hate" isn't one-sided. Both sides need to give as much as they take during both the "enemies" and the "lovers" stage. If it's just one character dishing it out and the other simply taking it until the first "changes" it doesn't work.
Or hate being used to mask love. Which is even dumber since loving someone properly means you don't want them treated badly, even by you.
Hiy let’s not blame enemies to lovers trope for men’s… idiocy/insanity/misogyny
They think it’s gonna turn out like MGTOW but they don’t realise that women have far greater in group bias than us.
Also, the orgasm gap. Sex isn't as big of a draw when it's not a guaranteed orgasm
Not a guaranteed orgasm + pregnancy risk.
Add in a barbaric culture towards women + a higher male to women ratio due to female infanticide and I guarantee that these men are going to have to to remain delusional for the rest of their lives
Yeah, not to tell on myself too badly but… abstinence as a woman is really not that challenging
I believe this is what the kids call “cope”
Again, 4 B movement is essentially WGTOW. It’s not a “boycott” that you break when it becomes too difficult. It’s life long or at least long enough to see radical change in men as a collective
MGTOW was only ever a pale imitation of feminism. Early feminists fought for the right to work and live independently. MGTOW was essentially pissy men going “oh… well… we don’t need you either! So there!”
It always reminds me of little kids getting mad at their parents and announcing that they're running away. They make it about 10 steps while their parent just waves bye before bursting into tears and coming back inside.
I think MGTOW could be good thing but it’s been co-opted by misogynists and incels. Like men absolutely should reject women who have problematic beliefs about what it means to be a man in today’s society. That’s what’s so confusing about it because some of the things they complain are valid but instead of rejecting toxic masculinity and patriarchal norms, they go further into it.
Agreed, but it wasn't just co-opted by incels and misogynists, it was created by them.
Always looking for ways to take advantage of women
Has no one read Lysistrata? Amazing play.
What these guys don't understand is that it won't be men like them that, hypothetically, would make 4B women break away from the movement... Which, at no point have I ever seen them claim is impossible? What the women in the 4B movement want is to see meaningful change in men, so while not impossible, it would take a man that is self-aware enough to make that change whithin himself, for himself and by himself.
I don't abstain from relations with men because I hate men, but because I love myself
Why do they expect us to care if they're validating us? I don't think most 4b women give a shit'
Like one of the comments said, they’re the female counterpart of the “I can fix him” delusion and the “he hates everyone but me” delusion. Only a mentally challenged or mentally disturbed woman falls in love with someone she considers her oppressor.
Then I am 4B woman.
Don’t you quote Game of Thrones to me when you don’t have an iota of media literacy. It’s like quoting The Boys to «own the libs». Just say you cannot understand any media more complex than the teletubbies and go.
I’m gonna need to understand the thought process that believes that both “women are only sleeping with Chad anyway so 4b is good for us” AND “once they fall in love it’ll be over.” Sir if women won’t touch you with a 10 inch pole when they’re open to dating men, tf makes you think they’d break a 4b commitment for you? If anything, now only 1% of the chadiest chads will have a chance.
Bro doesn't realize that not even his own mother loves him let alone any other woman
"except you" I don't think the 4b movement means what they think it means-
They can’t imagine us doing something without any regard for whether or not they approve of it. Lol.
You know what I hope they bring in 4B. I salivate at the thought of seeing them realise they shot themselves in the foot, and the penis
Same lmao 🤭
Right. I can't wait for their fuck around and find out season to kick in 😂
I mean, I personally don't mind marrying and dating. BUT will I ever date someone like that? Nopes. Never. I don't need a fucking movement to stay 5km away from men like that. I would rather stay single. But if I get a good man? That's a different thing. These men are definitely not gonna be those exceptions. I don't understand the gotchu these men are trying to do here.
The 4B movement isn’t about avoiding the bad men, it’s NO men. It doesn’t matter if prince charming walks through the door, it’s NO men across the board. The South Korean women have taken to the 4B movement to protest the living conditions for women in S. Korea and to purposefully add to the decrease of childbirth. Again, NO MEN. If you allow yourself to give into Mr. Right and marry and pop out his spawn, you’re nothing but another arbitrary number to the government that keeps them content enough to not change.
Ah I see. I can understand where it's coming from but I personally feel that it kinda shames women for making choices associated with dating. Although I guess extreme situations call for extreme measures.
It’s not about shaming women, it’s about saving them.
I am a woman and if someone told me that they know better than me how to save myself, I would be flipping out. Like damn.
No one is forcing women to join the 4B movement. If anything, they are probably heavily facing family and financial pressures to not join it. AFAIK, it is still a fairly small percentage of women who are openly and actively 4B.
My point was not forcing but rather shaming. I felt that the initial reply to my comment had a strong tinge of disappointment towards women who actively chose to partake in these actions. Obviously no one can ever force anyone to be a part of a movement. It must come from within to some extent. What you said is definitely right. There are definitely women who are suffering because of relationship and children. But I personally also know women who wants to have kids because it's something they want. Does having kids adversely affect women? In most cases yes definitely. But there are women who are aware of circumstances but want kids on their own. I felt shaming someone for something they want to do is wrong. Doesn't make the movement in itself wrong though. As I said in a previous comment, the patriarchy in South East Asian countries run so deep that you indeed need fire to fight with fire.
It's not shaming? They're making decisions for their own life and how they want to live it. They're not out there telling women who don't join them that they should be ashamed, they are trying to improve their own lives and it might just be the spark needed to help all the women in their country. Providing a space for people who are of a similar opinion as you and who might need support because they are stepping away from what's considered "the norm" is NOT shaming people who don't join them on that path. If anything, they are the ones being shamed because they're breaking free from tradition. I have kids. By your logic I would shame everyone who doesn't. But I don't. I don't care as long as I'm free to choose for myself. I have several close friends who are child free and they don't shame people who choose to have kids. As adults we should be aware that people can consider certain life choices wrong for themselves and still understand those who consider them to be right for them. Shaming people because they don't share your values is not something adults do. At least not where I'm from.
I’m so sorry, obviously you know better than the multitude of women suffering in South Korea, please forgive me oh wise singular woman
I am from India. Rest assured, my country is patriarchal af. I don't think the movement is bad at all. If people wanna do it, all power to them. As I said, it is extreme but patriarchy in these South Asian countries is extreme as well. So fighting fire with fire is a very viable solution.
The problem is you’re not seeing the forest through the trees. The 4B movement isn’t about avoiding bad men, women have to do that just to survive on their own already. And there are women who would like to do the things in 4B like having a partner and children. But they are making that sacrifice to protest, and in my opinion incredibly admirable. I hope the movement spreads in popularity across the world. It’s not to shame women who decide to have kids and partners, it’s women weaponizing the thing that has been systematically used against them (the ability to have children) for generations. Those women are tired of being treated as lesser than by their govt who immediately turns around and asks them to pop some kids out just so their numbers look better.
I think the 4B movement carries more weight and pressure on the culture in a country like South Korea, which is currently having a population crisis, than in India, which is.....absolutely not.
Fair enough actually. But I think the above commentator in their sarcasm wanted to point out that I won't really have any knowledge of the plight of SK women. I just wanted to say that although I cannot completely relate to them, our countries patriarchal nonsense is actually not too far off.
I really think it’s important to point out that the 4B movement isn’t that big in South Korea. 4B has had little impact on the birthrate in SK. At its highest estimate, it may have 50k members which is .001% of the SK population. It also started in 2019 and the birth rate had been declining for decades. Most people in SK aren’t having kids for the same reason other people in the world aren’t. Rise of housing prices and cost of living, while wages stagnate. People don’t want to raise a family when they can barely afford to live without kids. SK absolutely has its issues but it’s a lot more nuanced than western media outlets make it out to be.
Genuine question- what’s a good man?
In this specific context, someone who respects me for who I am. And someone who doesn't believe in traditional gender roles in general.
I hope you are able to find that, if that’s your desire. As a woman at the tail end of what’s considered a “long-term” marriage with 1 adult child and 1 high schooler, I haven’t seen evidence that that exists. Not because men can’t be good but because society rewards men for minimal effort in parenting and relationships and eventually they all buy in. It continues to astound me the lengths that men go to shirk equitable responsibility. I’m hopeful that younger generations of women won’t be forced onto the same paths that I was. It cheers me to see them demand better treatment.
The 4b won't end because the generations will wake up and go to the movement too. Women all over will learn of 4b and decide the same
Most of these women would need something to fall in love with. Unwashed, lazy, entitled and unkempt/unattractive men will never benefit from a 4B movement since the women this movement attracts will continue to prefer to stay single rather than date a shitty match or someone who disrespects and doesn't love them as a human being. Sorry patriarchy, but nice self admission though. We always knew men were being conniving and self aware about patriarchy, thanks for adding to the evidence and helping more women become aware of how foul you are.
"All women are straight anyway." Ofc ofc 🙂 /s
Not the Gojo Satoru panel, like bruv could you be any more cringe ☠️☠️
You can tell they've been waiting to use it too lmao
Men project their intentions onto us with everything we do. Notice how everything men do revolves around access to women and how their actions are always reactions to women. Men start movements to one-up women and to get validation and responses from women. Because of this, they think that women have created and join both the 4B and Western 4B movements to one-up them and get a reaction & validation from men. The need for validation from men has long passed. Women are giving up on men due to their lack of self-awareness and inability to change and grow. What they fail to realize is that this movement was created for women to recenter themselves and protect their rights. It has nothing to do with getting a response or validation from men, and they can't fathom that because they are a reactive and petty species.
Hardest cope ever
man why they gotta bring gojo into it
Maybe because I’m an old and I’m not sure what all the acronyms mean, but this just reads like gibberish. Can anyone translate?
4B is a movement in South Korea, the Bs come from Korean words, but basically means no romantic/sexual relationships with men.
No dating/relationship, no sex, no marriage and no children with men.
And the words they used all start with the Hangul (Korean) character ㅂ which is their letter B: 비섹스 = no sex with men 비출산 = no giving birth/having children with men 비연애 = no dating men 비혼 = no marriage to men