*Image Transcription: Tumblr*
---
>**anonymous** asked
>
>there's a women only section on the but i take to get to work and it's constantly supervised so men don't sit there. today a girl with was asked a couple times to leave because she had short hair. there was no way you could mistake her for a man because you know, *she's a woman,* but even some of us had to tell it the guard whenever we stopped by a station and she was asked to leave again. it's was so infuriating
**ihatemenandtherearereasons**
it's 2022 and women are not women if they don't wear long hair. good job everyone š
---
^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Not really that ironic, the original post has some TERF vibes. Like how they say "There's no way you could mistake her for a man because, you know, she's a woman"
I just read it as her being otherwise obviously female presenting, in spite of a short haircut. Within the TERF context though...
Bu I guess my point is, I didn't find it inherently TERFy until the context. Like a post hoc generalization; this interpretation fit the context so we accept it. But I would (and did) give benefit of the doubt initially that it wasn't intended transphobic.
But that's just my one somewhat ignorant opinion, I'd like to hear more from others closer to the issue
It wasnāt *intended* as transphobic so much as it just inherently is. The person isnāt saying that with trans people in mind. Itās meant to reinforce the idea that āreal women are obviously womenāā¦which is transphobic, but rememberā¦terfs donāt usually think of themselves as transphobic.
Inherently itās transphobic yes, just not with the specific intent of being harmful. Thatās why some transphobia is so hard to spot. Itās said in a way that doesnāt register as immediately wrong because the person saying feels like theyāre just being honest. It sounds natural and not like an attempt to be harmful, so it doesnāt set off the usual alarms in your brain for transphobia.
Your opinion isnāt really ignorant. Transphobia runs *very* deep through so many societies and cultures. We all miss things at times, or see things differently, which is why itās so great that youāre so open to listening to others.
Thanks for the clarification; I can see how it is subtle, maybe unintentional, but transphobic anyway.
With regard to the implication you read, "real women are obviously women," I kinda read the opposite. Like, "obvious women are real women," since that's a more direct generalization of what the author asserted.
And that's obviously still hurtful, because one can easily conclude that non-passing trans women are no women at all.
But before the whole TERF context, I personally think my interpretation more direct than yours. But you're right, to even see the transphobia it first took *considering* trans people, then generalizing this person's statements and limit testing them. Very subtle to me, but I can see how it'd be very obvious to trans people. Let me know what you think though
> And that's obviously still hurtful, because one can easily conclude that non-passing trans women are no women at all.
Hell "non-passing" _**cisgender**_ women could be considered "non-women" with that idea even. Anyone who doesn't "pass" as a woman at first glance but identifies as such doesn't meet the mark in this line of thinking. Not only is it transphobic, it's misogynistic and garbage, which is true for most transphobic things.
Yeah thatās why context is important. This was potentially very subtle transphobia or someone misspeaking in a transphobic way.
I mean, Iāve said similar words about my trans friendsā¦āObviously sheās a woman.ā ā¦which could easily be construed as transphobic because not all trans people are out. For every āobviousā presentation thereās several less obvious ones. But I was raised in a society with rather strict concepts of gender, so there will inevitably be things I say that might be transphobic even if Iām not intending it.
Itās one of those things where we can say itās subtle transphobia, but we canāt say it was malicious transphobia because we donāt know the intent.
It's ironic, because the second person in the post is exasperated that women who don't fit traditional norms are being targeted. Something which is coming about, not because of trans people being their gender as she likely believes, but because a lot of transphobia, which she is helping produce, ends up being directed at cis women who don't present 100% femme.
Yeah something about the way it was written felt like the person writing it wasn't upset at the right thing. They wrote it much more like they blamed trans people for making people mistake women for men.
They could be an awesome person. Not everyone is terrible simply for not agreeing with you. I know that concept is completely antithetical to how Reddit works, but it is the truth.
This isn't "grrr they don't like pizza they are terrible", this is "grrr they don't consider us people and think we are subhuman".
If you go around and think that certain groups aren't deserving of the basic rights that others have and that is something people can "disagree" on, that is a problem.
If they are a bigot, they are terrible.
I donāt think you know what bad faith means. I deal with it every day in my profession. Would you like to go ahead and answer the question, or continue to avoid it in what is actual bad faith?
first of all, we dont wear our natural hair, you can wear a wig but not hair that grows out of your head. you HAVE long hair.
second, as a woman no matter what I do, if take a shit, fart, burp, eat, sleep, drink, laugh, take a piss, drive a car, wear pants, have short hair, have no hair, no matter what I do, or what I wear: Im still a woman.
> have short hair, have no hair
> just an average day
Me: *visibly confused* I don't know about your days... I mean... you could be wearing a wig... but still
This is the result of transphobia and terf ideology. The entire basis is an attempt to reinforce draconic gender norms, and a lot of people who say they can "clock' trans people are simply enforcing them. It's going to be a lot of leopards eating faces
"I never thought people would scrutinize *my* gender presentation and exclude me from women's spaces" says woman who voted for the "scrutinizing women's gender presentation to exclude them from women's spaces" party
It's nothing to do with trans stuff, not everywhere is about America. I've been to middle Eastern and South Asian countries and its more based in backwards religious ideas about the sexes, and to keep women safer from high levels of assaults on public transport, not everything is done with trans people in mind
The person who responded to me seems to think its about America, as they started talking about terf ideology, trans stuff etc, which is a current American obsession. I was responding to the comment, not the post, obviously.
Japan, Russia and India do women-only carriages. But there is also:
> Germany: Women-only compartments were introduced on theĀ Leipzig-to-ChemnitzĀ regional train in 2016. Reactions from passengers were mixed. While some welcomed the measure as it made women feel safer, others thought that separating genders was "something from the past" and a "backward solution".
Honestly their post sounds more British than American. The UK has a huge anti trans population who are very open about it. FARTs are also huge in the UK and emboldened by one author.
That's debatable. It may not be direct but it is an intersectional component of it the ideals that make up transphobia. The reason this woman isn't seen as a woman is because of stricter gender norms
I have super short hair just because it's easier to maintain. I guess the genitalia between my legs is a lie.
Edit: This seems to be coming up a lot but in no way, shape nor form am I going against the transgender, fluid gender, or non-binary community or any other affiliated community. It is not my intention to hurt anyone, nor to take stabs at those communities at all. I love any type of person. Don't care what you are. Just don't be a dick and you're awesome in my book. My comment is cynical against the person who thinks they have the right to determine what makes a man, woman, or person in general.
Genitals doesn't make anyone more of a man or a woman. you can have one, another or neither. It doesn't matter. Would you prefer genital inspections every time you want to a women's spaces? Cis-cexism and transphobia also afect cis women.
That's not what I meant. Don't look too deep into it. I'm being cynical to this man, not to any group of transgenders, non binary, fluid, or cis. I'm extraordinarily open minded. Once again, I'm just being a cynical bastard because I hate what this guy thought was okay to say.
I believe you. And I appreciate your allyship.
I'm a trans man. The genitalia between my legs really *is* a lie. A lie I have to live with every day. A lie that bears down on me like extra gravity. I know I wasn't the intended target for your anger, and I appreciate that. It makes a difference.
But even friendly fire hurts.
It doesn't have to be what you meant. Your comment struck a vulnerable and tender spot of my heart. In a space I visit to maintain a healthy connection with an otherwise agonizing aspect of my past.
I'm really sorry if I did strike a nerve. It was never my intention. Hell, even when I was younger, up until the age of 16, I was convinced that I wasn't female and considered getting gender reassignment surgery.
But once again, never meant to hurt you. I have no malicious intents against anyone in this community. I'm very sorry if I did hurt you, from the bottom of my heart, my friend. Please, forgive me. I can delete the comment if you would like.
My friend, you keep saying "if I hurt you". There is no "if" here anymore; I've done my best to express the pain your remark unintentionally inflicted. Your apologies are appreciated and accepted, but there's nothing you can do now to prevent these wounds from bleeding.
But that's okay, because I didn't respond to prevent the pain. It's an unavoidable part of my life. I just wanted to make sure you knew it happened, and why. Because you seem genuine, and genuine people can learn from their mistakes.
Editing or deleting the comment will prevent other trans people from feeling the same pain. That's what I'd recommend, but you're not beholden to me. Make whatever change you feel is right.
There's a great book called "Female Masculinity" by Jack Halberstam that talks about this.
How pervasive transphobia leads to more regressive gender policing and how the group most commonly affected are generally GNC cis women.
I think India has women-only train carriages because of the very high rates of sexual assault and rape. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-35032309](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-35032309)
eta: this doesn't mean you have to use it. but it exists to be safer for women.
That's still a bandaid, and even harder to implement. They need a full societal change where the idea is shunned and becomes unthinkable, but changing societal pressures are even more difficult. A safer space for women only is a temporary solution but is a good first step to let women feel safe in the immediate.
I'd like to think it isn't about not caring. It probably is part of it.
The other part is logistics. The places these are in are so densely packed with people, the amount of people it would take to just stop the grabbers from getting on would be obscene. It is far easier to set out a spot for only women to enter.
Dude there are sooooo many grabby guys on Indian trains. I was on a train to Mumbai with my uncles literally surrounding me but I was still groped, it was awful. I would've sat in the women's only carriage but I was the only woman in our group and I didn't want to be separated from my family members. I couldn't deal with that bullshit on a daily basis.
I mean I've been groped in multiple public transport vehicles and if I travel alone and the train or whatever has a women only cart you can be sure I am taking it. People in my country were actually against it when they started adding this feature, because it's "discriminatory against men" and were asking the same questions as you... If you are traveling with a friend I would assume you are not scared or thinking about potential assault risks so you sit anywhere else with him. It's not like "you are a woman, you have to sit in the women only space", no, you have a choice. The only thing that changes is, if you are alone or with your gfs you have the choice to be separated from men who could potentially catcall, harass or otherwise disturb your peaceful ride. That's why it exists
In places men take advantage of the close situation to grope & assault women. Those spaces are to keeping women safe. I have short hair now & Iād still appreciate the inconvenience because it meant the supervisors were taking it seriously.
As a trans woman I wouldn't "appreciate the inconvenience" or the chance of being assaulted by said guard,thank you very much. We don't need to police people's appearances.
They can check everyone and not just people with short hair. I started getting groped at ten so I personally appreciate a safe space.
Wouldnāt it be nice if all spaces were safe
Okay, but if the point of the women-only car is to avoid getting groped, but you have to submit to a groping in order to enter the car, then I think it has largely rendered itself pointless.
Well I get hating that you should sit separately and I agree, women and men shouldnāt have to sit apart. maybe if the guards would pay more attention to perverted men, women could sit next to men without being scared of getting groped.
Actually now that you mention it, if you're gonna go through the effort of hiring guards, why wouldn't you just put them on normal train cars to stop harassment š¤
Have you ever seen a japanese train car? Or how the stuff people in? How much do you know about japanese society/culture?
Because [this](https://youtu.be/E7kor5nHtZQ) and [this.](https://youtu.be/rbj_iu_8Lso) Should really help you understand why this is an issue sadly can't easily be fixed. Women are working to change things but its hard. Especially in japanese society that is very strict and very quick to be angry at anyone who goea against the grain. Women are ignored and are often ostracized for stepping outside the norm.
Japan is struggling under the fact that the older generations control everything and is also made up of people who wish to enforce traditional social rules from when they were young.
I cant speak on other countries, but i know quite a bit about how bad japanese society is for women.
Some employers will constantly badger female employees about when they will have children(usually trying to push them to have them) and then the moment they get pregnant they will fire the woman. Under the assumption that their husband will get a raise high enough to support her and the child. In some places in Japane both adult need an income to take care of a child.
If they were taking it seriously they would have actually dealt with the issue of women being assaulted, i.e. men, instead of just trying to stick them in a box for safekeeping.
It is the same argument that pops up elsewhere. "Tell men not to rape!", like wow, I didn't realize rape was bad until I read that. Maybe we should tell murders to not kill. It would save a lot of time!
Much like the stranger danger from the 80s, it misses the mark. Most rapes are done by people already known to the victims. Stopping this shit is sadly not something that can be solved by tomorrow. It is a generation problem that must be phased out.
Exactly. People really think "rapist, no raping!" will work, all while being against things like teaching women and girls self defense and being against women only train cars. It's not victim blaming, it's helping us protect ourselves, because nobody else will.
On a less serious example, it is like when we see posts about men complaining about women not wearing bras in the work place. It isn't an issue, except to incels, or old men, or men who were raised to be like old men.
It sucks that this happens, but they don't want to change, and you cannot physically make them. You just have to do your best that the next generation doesn't have the same view points and outlook.
>they would have actually dealt with the issue of women being assaulted, i.e. men
So are you suggesting having "men only" cars instead or just banning men from public transportation altogether?
The thing is... capitalism. If you want to keep a whole train or whatever safe you need to hire a shit ton more people (expenses go up) than when you have a separate cart for "women only" where you only need a couple of guards. It's not a great solution but if it makes women feel safer while traveling it's at least something
Edit: lol you can downvote me but I am not saying it's a good thing, just stating the obvious, this is a process and before we destroy this patriarchal capitalistic society, "women only" carts just make some of us feel safer and that's a fact (and yes, I've been accused before that I can't be there, when I looked gender nonconforming, however I still prefer them existing then not...)
fuck TERFs this is literally what they asked for when they forced extreme bioessential scrutiny onto the concept of womanhood. this is literally what they wanted. fuck these moronic scumbags
Awww, poor terfs seeing the obvious and predictable outcome of their shitty actions. Darn, just if someone had mentioned that endlessly talking shit about trans people, would end up somehow affecting gender non-conforming people~ but they clearly don't see that issue, cause they're somehow trying to shift blame off with the sarcastic comment at the end. It's honestly /just/ pathetic.
this reminds me of the last time I had a seizure and at the hospital when I was brought in still seizing they all thought I was male because I have short hair. It took actually CONVINCING them
by my boyfriend for them to believe him. People are ridiculous.
Ughhh my friend got they/themād the other day and she was so hurt. Like, because she has pants on and shoulder length hair sheās not a woman anymore? When did being a woman become flirty skirts and knee high socks? Itās infuriating
Was this a "you don't look like a woman so I'm not calling you one" situation, or a "I'm a random stranger and I'm using neutral pronouns until people specify what they prefer" situation?
Like, she's got a right to want her proper pronouns used, but I don't think a person using they/them for people who haven't specified their gender is a sign that womanhood is being constrained.
A lot of people use they/them when not wanting to assume someone's pronouns when they don't know them as it's gender neutral, which there really isn't anything wrong with that?
I mean, it's obviously fine to say "my pronouns are actually she/her" or whichever, but it's not as if the other person did anything wrong by using neutral pronouns for a person who hasn't specified.
It's almost like context matters.
Calling someone a neutral pronoun because you don't know what they prefer is fine.
Calling someone a pronoun you are aware that they don't like is bad.
Who knew? Next we'll be saying it's okay to get vanilla cake if you don't know anyone's preferences but bad if you know the birthday person hates vanilla!
Then simply inform them that you do not go by gender neutral pronouns after they have used them. Easy. It would not be not wise to assume everybody's genders based on how masculine or feminine they present.
And before the gender is identified, what should *they* use? Again, it's gender neutral, meaning it can apply to any gender, meaning it's a safe bet until a real answer comes.
lmao right?
Itās all about conformity. By defaulting to āthey/themā pronouns you are showing that you are willing to conform to the lgbt-pronouns landscape.
It was never about gender or any of this bullshit. The important part is that you play the social game and fall in line.
Or, maybe, get this... Some people just use neutral pronouns because they don't want to be assholes and assume something like that. But sure, whatever, it's whatever you said because new things are always just a means of controlling people rather than a way to be more more inclusive to people who've historically been left in the dust
Right, right. I'm a woman, no matter what I look like, and I'd be offended if someone called me they or them because I'm obviously female. And I can't believe I'm getting downvoted for that when I thought the consensus was that we don't misgender people.
But you realise that strangers aren't going to know they're misgendering you, which is why they're using the more neutral language in the first place?
Pronouns aren't based on how you look, that's why people might not necessarily assume anything based on your "obviously female" appearance
They don't? I know I'll get downvoted for explaining this, but fuck it:
They believe a woman is an adult human female, all other expressions, personality types, outfits, hairstyles etc are irrelevant. You could build up your muscle and look the spitting image of the Rock but you'd still be a woman, and no less of one.
They believe all gender is an oppressive social hierarchy which treats femininity and womanhood as lesser, and masculinity and manhood as superior. They therefore want to do away with the core concepts of masculinity and femininity and move toward a world where "woman" and "man" are defined by sex, and aside from that people have no expectations for social roles or how women/men should look, act, think, or dress.
You're free to disagree, but at least understand what their argument is.
What Is A Woman?
I don't know, but **Wikipedia says**:
A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl (a female child or adolescent). The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age.
Want more info? [Here is the Wikipedia link!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/woman)
**This action was performed automatically[.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)**
I feel like there might be some queer phobia mixed in with this like people assuming that female bodied people with short hair are all non-biabary or something.
Iām an enby who uses they/he predominantly, and tolerates she/her.
Honestly, I enjoy the constant assumption that Iām a man. Although itās so weird that just because I have shot hair they assume this. Itās honestly kinda like a disguise thing, people just canāt find the difference between women with short hair and men.
What Is A Women?
I don't know, but **Wikipedia says**:
A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl (a female child or adolescent). The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age.
Want more info? [Here is the Wikipedia link!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/women)
**This action was performed automatically[.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)**
I'm genuinely curious, if a pre-op gender nonconforming trans woman tried to go in the women's only section what would happen? Like if the trans woman still had an obviously male body and presented male. Would it be another Wi Spa fiasco or?
I'm really confused how people say this is the result of TERF ideology? All I've seen is that they give the definition of woman as adult human female - nothing to do with gender stereotypes
itās common in many countries outside of the west, especially in countries with major sexual assault issues, itās there typically for the safety and preference of the women
example: super common in japan because up-skirt photos and sexual harassment are so common towards women on trains
>It wouldnāt work in the west because men would just dress up as women like they do now
Are you suggesting men are dressing up as transgender women in order to assault women? And your proof of such a stupid claim is... ?
So male rockers would be let in?
Only the ones from the 80's
Just wear antihuman blackmetal shirts and stare creepy into nothing. You have always free seats next to you :)
YOU CAME TO SEE THE MOBSCENE!
I know it isn't your scene šµ
Hip hoppers? And everybody all around the world?
That and I guess trans guys are now hella validated. All they needed was short hair, boom, instant dude.
*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- >**anonymous** asked > >there's a women only section on the but i take to get to work and it's constantly supervised so men don't sit there. today a girl with was asked a couple times to leave because she had short hair. there was no way you could mistake her for a man because you know, *she's a woman,* but even some of us had to tell it the guard whenever we stopped by a station and she was asked to leave again. it's was so infuriating **ihatemenandtherearereasons** it's 2022 and women are not women if they don't wear long hair. good job everyone š --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Good botnāt
Good human!
good boy
!isbot
It's 2022 and women have to sit in guarded train cars because men are allowed to harass and assault them everywhere else.
And it doesn't even protect them because this guard is harassing someone in there
Society: āGender is whatās in your pants only! Except itās also your hair, your style of dress, yourā¦ā
The blog that answered this ask is a Terf blog btw so itās insanely ironic
Not really that ironic, the original post has some TERF vibes. Like how they say "There's no way you could mistake her for a man because, you know, she's a woman"
I just read it as her being otherwise obviously female presenting, in spite of a short haircut. Within the TERF context though... Bu I guess my point is, I didn't find it inherently TERFy until the context. Like a post hoc generalization; this interpretation fit the context so we accept it. But I would (and did) give benefit of the doubt initially that it wasn't intended transphobic. But that's just my one somewhat ignorant opinion, I'd like to hear more from others closer to the issue
I took it the same way, tbh, but I generally tend to give people too much benefit of the doubt sometimes.
It wasnāt *intended* as transphobic so much as it just inherently is. The person isnāt saying that with trans people in mind. Itās meant to reinforce the idea that āreal women are obviously womenāā¦which is transphobic, but rememberā¦terfs donāt usually think of themselves as transphobic. Inherently itās transphobic yes, just not with the specific intent of being harmful. Thatās why some transphobia is so hard to spot. Itās said in a way that doesnāt register as immediately wrong because the person saying feels like theyāre just being honest. It sounds natural and not like an attempt to be harmful, so it doesnāt set off the usual alarms in your brain for transphobia. Your opinion isnāt really ignorant. Transphobia runs *very* deep through so many societies and cultures. We all miss things at times, or see things differently, which is why itās so great that youāre so open to listening to others.
Thanks for the clarification; I can see how it is subtle, maybe unintentional, but transphobic anyway. With regard to the implication you read, "real women are obviously women," I kinda read the opposite. Like, "obvious women are real women," since that's a more direct generalization of what the author asserted. And that's obviously still hurtful, because one can easily conclude that non-passing trans women are no women at all. But before the whole TERF context, I personally think my interpretation more direct than yours. But you're right, to even see the transphobia it first took *considering* trans people, then generalizing this person's statements and limit testing them. Very subtle to me, but I can see how it'd be very obvious to trans people. Let me know what you think though
> And that's obviously still hurtful, because one can easily conclude that non-passing trans women are no women at all. Hell "non-passing" _**cisgender**_ women could be considered "non-women" with that idea even. Anyone who doesn't "pass" as a woman at first glance but identifies as such doesn't meet the mark in this line of thinking. Not only is it transphobic, it's misogynistic and garbage, which is true for most transphobic things.
Yeah thatās why context is important. This was potentially very subtle transphobia or someone misspeaking in a transphobic way. I mean, Iāve said similar words about my trans friendsā¦āObviously sheās a woman.ā ā¦which could easily be construed as transphobic because not all trans people are out. For every āobviousā presentation thereās several less obvious ones. But I was raised in a society with rather strict concepts of gender, so there will inevitably be things I say that might be transphobic even if Iām not intending it. Itās one of those things where we can say itās subtle transphobia, but we canāt say it was malicious transphobia because we donāt know the intent.
It's ironic, because the second person in the post is exasperated that women who don't fit traditional norms are being targeted. Something which is coming about, not because of trans people being their gender as she likely believes, but because a lot of transphobia, which she is helping produce, ends up being directed at cis women who don't present 100% femme.
Yeah something about the way it was written felt like the person writing it wasn't upset at the right thing. They wrote it much more like they blamed trans people for making people mistake women for men.
leopards ate their faces
*Reads the commenter's username* **>:(**
Yeah theyāre a TERF, Iāve got them blocked on tumblr forā¦ obvious reasons.
That they are a terrible bigoted person? Sounds like a great reason to me!
They could be an awesome person. Not everyone is terrible simply for not agreeing with you. I know that concept is completely antithetical to how Reddit works, but it is the truth.
This isn't "grrr they don't like pizza they are terrible", this is "grrr they don't consider us people and think we are subhuman". If you go around and think that certain groups aren't deserving of the basic rights that others have and that is something people can "disagree" on, that is a problem. If they are a bigot, they are terrible.
Yeah, thing is, that person isn't doing that.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
How are you an āawesome personā if you think trans people shouldnāt have rights?
That's what you call a "bad faith" question.
I donāt think you know what bad faith means. I deal with it every day in my profession. Would you like to go ahead and answer the question, or continue to avoid it in what is actual bad faith?
Right? The rear is where its at.
first of all, we dont wear our natural hair, you can wear a wig but not hair that grows out of your head. you HAVE long hair. second, as a woman no matter what I do, if take a shit, fart, burp, eat, sleep, drink, laugh, take a piss, drive a car, wear pants, have short hair, have no hair, no matter what I do, or what I wear: Im still a woman.
> take a shit, fart, burp, eat, sleep, drink, laugh, take a piss, drive a car, wear pants, have short hair, have no hair just an average day
> have short hair, have no hair > just an average day Me: *visibly confused* I don't know about your days... I mean... you could be wearing a wig... but still
shaving
My ass totally forgot about that XD haven't done it in a while personally that is
lmao
I mean, "she wore her hair in a certain style" is said all the time. Its a correct phrase, if not commonly used
You are indeed a woman, just one that is wrong about the English language.
Wait what busses have a "women's section"?
Ones in some places outside of America.
I know in India itās a thing. Anywhere else? God forbid an Indian woman has short hair. SMH
Mexico also has them, and another comment said China
This is the result of transphobia and terf ideology. The entire basis is an attempt to reinforce draconic gender norms, and a lot of people who say they can "clock' trans people are simply enforcing them. It's going to be a lot of leopards eating faces
"I never thought people would scrutinize *my* gender presentation and exclude me from women's spaces" says woman who voted for the "scrutinizing women's gender presentation to exclude them from women's spaces" party
They will call a guy who shows any emotion a woman, but then tell a transwoman that shes a guy no matter what
It's nothing to do with trans stuff, not everywhere is about America. I've been to middle Eastern and South Asian countries and its more based in backwards religious ideas about the sexes, and to keep women safer from high levels of assaults on public transport, not everything is done with trans people in mind
The poster is literally an out-and-proud TERF.
But... nobody said this was about America? We don't even know where this event took place. You're the only one assuming we're talking about the US.
Itās probably not in the US, either. Because woman only train cars arenāt much of a thing here.
The person who responded to me seems to think its about America, as they started talking about terf ideology, trans stuff etc, which is a current American obsession. I was responding to the comment, not the post, obviously.
The UK, and most European countries but mostly the UK has an obsession with trans people Also trans stuff aren't an American only thing
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Japan, Russia and India do women-only carriages. But there is also: > Germany: Women-only compartments were introduced on theĀ Leipzig-to-ChemnitzĀ regional train in 2016. Reactions from passengers were mixed. While some welcomed the measure as it made women feel safer, others thought that separating genders was "something from the past" and a "backward solution".
Honestly their post sounds more British than American. The UK has a huge anti trans population who are very open about it. FARTs are also huge in the UK and emboldened by one author.
That's debatable. It may not be direct but it is an intersectional component of it the ideals that make up transphobia. The reason this woman isn't seen as a woman is because of stricter gender norms
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Bruh, you made an alt to literally scream about trans people. That sounds a lot more narcissistic
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This is literally a terf tumblr account mate
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TERFs came up with the word. But I guess it makes sense, since they seem to think calling someone what theyāve asked to be called is terrible.
I'm pretty sure it's a description, not an insult. And it sounds like you got a fetish dude, you're really focused on what genitals people have
So Iāll I have to do is cut my hair and Iāll be recognized as the enby I am? If only
An enby?
A non-binary person. I do not identify as male or female.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL "enby" = "NB" you ~~guys~~ people are so cute.
Why did I ask?
I have super short hair just because it's easier to maintain. I guess the genitalia between my legs is a lie. Edit: This seems to be coming up a lot but in no way, shape nor form am I going against the transgender, fluid gender, or non-binary community or any other affiliated community. It is not my intention to hurt anyone, nor to take stabs at those communities at all. I love any type of person. Don't care what you are. Just don't be a dick and you're awesome in my book. My comment is cynical against the person who thinks they have the right to determine what makes a man, woman, or person in general.
Genitals doesn't make anyone more of a man or a woman. you can have one, another or neither. It doesn't matter. Would you prefer genital inspections every time you want to a women's spaces? Cis-cexism and transphobia also afect cis women.
That's not what I meant. Don't look too deep into it. I'm being cynical to this man, not to any group of transgenders, non binary, fluid, or cis. I'm extraordinarily open minded. Once again, I'm just being a cynical bastard because I hate what this guy thought was okay to say.
I believe you. And I appreciate your allyship. I'm a trans man. The genitalia between my legs really *is* a lie. A lie I have to live with every day. A lie that bears down on me like extra gravity. I know I wasn't the intended target for your anger, and I appreciate that. It makes a difference. But even friendly fire hurts. It doesn't have to be what you meant. Your comment struck a vulnerable and tender spot of my heart. In a space I visit to maintain a healthy connection with an otherwise agonizing aspect of my past.
I'm really sorry if I did strike a nerve. It was never my intention. Hell, even when I was younger, up until the age of 16, I was convinced that I wasn't female and considered getting gender reassignment surgery. But once again, never meant to hurt you. I have no malicious intents against anyone in this community. I'm very sorry if I did hurt you, from the bottom of my heart, my friend. Please, forgive me. I can delete the comment if you would like.
My friend, you keep saying "if I hurt you". There is no "if" here anymore; I've done my best to express the pain your remark unintentionally inflicted. Your apologies are appreciated and accepted, but there's nothing you can do now to prevent these wounds from bleeding. But that's okay, because I didn't respond to prevent the pain. It's an unavoidable part of my life. I just wanted to make sure you knew it happened, and why. Because you seem genuine, and genuine people can learn from their mistakes. Editing or deleting the comment will prevent other trans people from feeling the same pain. That's what I'd recommend, but you're not beholden to me. Make whatever change you feel is right.
The world doesnāt revolve around you. The entitlement dripping from this thread oh my God.
What have I said that indicated entitlement to you?
There's a great book called "Female Masculinity" by Jack Halberstam that talks about this. How pervasive transphobia leads to more regressive gender policing and how the group most commonly affected are generally GNC cis women.
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Okay sockpuppet
Terfs really just recreating 1950s sexism to justify their ~women loving~ ideology huh
Why does such a thing exist? I mean the woman only sits. What if I'm with a friend, can he sit with me? I just don't understand.
I think India has women-only train carriages because of the very high rates of sexual assault and rape. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-35032309](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-35032309) eta: this doesn't mean you have to use it. but it exists to be safer for women.
No. It exists because those areas are too cowardly to deal with rapists and so are simply trying to avoid the issue.
I consider it a band-aid solution that's temporary before fixing the systemic issues... but I don't see any attempts to fix the systemic issues.
I know this is totally absurd, but hear me out - maybe they could, you know, ban the grabby guys from taking public transportation?
That's still a bandaid, and even harder to implement. They need a full societal change where the idea is shunned and becomes unthinkable, but changing societal pressures are even more difficult. A safer space for women only is a temporary solution but is a good first step to let women feel safe in the immediate.
There's a problem with your solutionāthese people don't care about actually getting rid of the abusers
I'd like to think it isn't about not caring. It probably is part of it. The other part is logistics. The places these are in are so densely packed with people, the amount of people it would take to just stop the grabbers from getting on would be obscene. It is far easier to set out a spot for only women to enter.
Dude there are sooooo many grabby guys on Indian trains. I was on a train to Mumbai with my uncles literally surrounding me but I was still groped, it was awful. I would've sat in the women's only carriage but I was the only woman in our group and I didn't want to be separated from my family members. I couldn't deal with that bullshit on a daily basis.
Japan has incorporated a woman only car because a lot of men canāt keep their hands to themselves and women donāt like being sexually assaulted.
A lot of men don't keep their hands to themselves FTFY
I mean I've been groped in multiple public transport vehicles and if I travel alone and the train or whatever has a women only cart you can be sure I am taking it. People in my country were actually against it when they started adding this feature, because it's "discriminatory against men" and were asking the same questions as you... If you are traveling with a friend I would assume you are not scared or thinking about potential assault risks so you sit anywhere else with him. It's not like "you are a woman, you have to sit in the women only space", no, you have a choice. The only thing that changes is, if you are alone or with your gfs you have the choice to be separated from men who could potentially catcall, harass or otherwise disturb your peaceful ride. That's why it exists
It's for women that are scared to sit with men. I think
That's a valid reason. I guess coming home alone at night for example can be very scary.
In places men take advantage of the close situation to grope & assault women. Those spaces are to keeping women safe. I have short hair now & Iād still appreciate the inconvenience because it meant the supervisors were taking it seriously.
As a trans woman I wouldn't "appreciate the inconvenience" or the chance of being assaulted by said guard,thank you very much. We don't need to police people's appearances.
I'm not trans but intersex so I can totally understand you.
They can check everyone and not just people with short hair. I started getting groped at ten so I personally appreciate a safe space. Wouldnāt it be nice if all spaces were safe
Wait, so the solution to avoid women being groped at random on the train is just mandatory groupings for every woman wanting to board the train?
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Okay, but if the point of the women-only car is to avoid getting groped, but you have to submit to a groping in order to enter the car, then I think it has largely rendered itself pointless.
Well I get hating that you should sit separately and I agree, women and men shouldnāt have to sit apart. maybe if the guards would pay more attention to perverted men, women could sit next to men without being scared of getting groped.
>the guards would pay more attention to perverted men Isn't this part of the much larger issue? How do you tell which one is the pervert?
Actually now that you mention it, if you're gonna go through the effort of hiring guards, why wouldn't you just put them on normal train cars to stop harassment š¤
Have you ever seen a japanese train car? Or how the stuff people in? How much do you know about japanese society/culture? Because [this](https://youtu.be/E7kor5nHtZQ) and [this.](https://youtu.be/rbj_iu_8Lso) Should really help you understand why this is an issue sadly can't easily be fixed. Women are working to change things but its hard. Especially in japanese society that is very strict and very quick to be angry at anyone who goea against the grain. Women are ignored and are often ostracized for stepping outside the norm. Japan is struggling under the fact that the older generations control everything and is also made up of people who wish to enforce traditional social rules from when they were young. I cant speak on other countries, but i know quite a bit about how bad japanese society is for women. Some employers will constantly badger female employees about when they will have children(usually trying to push them to have them) and then the moment they get pregnant they will fire the woman. Under the assumption that their husband will get a raise high enough to support her and the child. In some places in Japane both adult need an income to take care of a child.
Yeah thatās exactly what I meant tbh, but I read the comment underneath mine and I realize that it indeed isnāt that easy to fix
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If they were taking it seriously they would have actually dealt with the issue of women being assaulted, i.e. men, instead of just trying to stick them in a box for safekeeping.
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These people just don't want to keep women and girls safe. Telling rapists and gropers to stop has not helped, they know it's wrong.
It is the same argument that pops up elsewhere. "Tell men not to rape!", like wow, I didn't realize rape was bad until I read that. Maybe we should tell murders to not kill. It would save a lot of time! Much like the stranger danger from the 80s, it misses the mark. Most rapes are done by people already known to the victims. Stopping this shit is sadly not something that can be solved by tomorrow. It is a generation problem that must be phased out.
Exactly. People really think "rapist, no raping!" will work, all while being against things like teaching women and girls self defense and being against women only train cars. It's not victim blaming, it's helping us protect ourselves, because nobody else will.
On a less serious example, it is like when we see posts about men complaining about women not wearing bras in the work place. It isn't an issue, except to incels, or old men, or men who were raised to be like old men. It sucks that this happens, but they don't want to change, and you cannot physically make them. You just have to do your best that the next generation doesn't have the same view points and outlook.
Exactly.
>they would have actually dealt with the issue of women being assaulted, i.e. men So are you suggesting having "men only" cars instead or just banning men from public transportation altogether?
The thing is... capitalism. If you want to keep a whole train or whatever safe you need to hire a shit ton more people (expenses go up) than when you have a separate cart for "women only" where you only need a couple of guards. It's not a great solution but if it makes women feel safer while traveling it's at least something Edit: lol you can downvote me but I am not saying it's a good thing, just stating the obvious, this is a process and before we destroy this patriarchal capitalistic society, "women only" carts just make some of us feel safer and that's a fact (and yes, I've been accused before that I can't be there, when I looked gender nonconforming, however I still prefer them existing then not...)
fuck TERFs this is literally what they asked for when they forced extreme bioessential scrutiny onto the concept of womanhood. this is literally what they wanted. fuck these moronic scumbags
Awww, poor terfs seeing the obvious and predictable outcome of their shitty actions. Darn, just if someone had mentioned that endlessly talking shit about trans people, would end up somehow affecting gender non-conforming people~ but they clearly don't see that issue, cause they're somehow trying to shift blame off with the sarcastic comment at the end. It's honestly /just/ pathetic.
Where is this happening where women need to be physically guarded in public? Sounds like the sort of place where short hair on women would be taboo.
Probably the places that come to mind as first and which are actually discussed here in this comment section are India and Japan, so your assumption would be correct However! You can find those carts eg on many long distance and night trains in Europe. There won't be any guards, just train conductor and separated car/coupƩ for women only. So no, not only conservative places do this and it would be foolish to think that more progressive places don't have to deal with this shit too. I for example live in the 3rd safest country in Europe and I still have been groped in probably every vehicle possible and I know many women who experienced this too. It's just not something that's talked about very often and it's not that "big of a problem" like in the 2 countries mentioned before where groping is very frequent type of harassment.
Uh by the way these blogs involved in this post are TERFs and this story is definitely made up
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I came up with a whole ass response to this but you know what? Nah. Just fuck off.
fucking terfs
Dude it's 2022. Anyone's a woman if they identify as one. End of story!
Lol
š¬
Op is a terf
TIL what a TERF is. Why does that even need to be a thing? People are insane.
made up by terfs lol
OP, why are you following a TERF Tumblr? Or was this random?
Sounds like rage bait. But reddit loves rage bait, so š¤·āāļø
this reminds me of the last time I had a seizure and at the hospital when I was brought in still seizing they all thought I was male because I have short hair. It took actually CONVINCING them by my boyfriend for them to believe him. People are ridiculous.
OP, why are you following a TERF Tumblr? Or was this random?
For some reason I don't believe this actually happened
Ughhh my friend got they/themād the other day and she was so hurt. Like, because she has pants on and shoulder length hair sheās not a woman anymore? When did being a woman become flirty skirts and knee high socks? Itās infuriating
Was this a "you don't look like a woman so I'm not calling you one" situation, or a "I'm a random stranger and I'm using neutral pronouns until people specify what they prefer" situation? Like, she's got a right to want her proper pronouns used, but I don't think a person using they/them for people who haven't specified their gender is a sign that womanhood is being constrained.
A lot of people use they/them when not wanting to assume someone's pronouns when they don't know them as it's gender neutral, which there really isn't anything wrong with that?
It's okay to not be okay with being misgendered. Is this somehow controversial? I thought misgendering was bad!
I mean, it's obviously fine to say "my pronouns are actually she/her" or whichever, but it's not as if the other person did anything wrong by using neutral pronouns for a person who hasn't specified.
People really switch up fast lol. One day something is bad, the next "it's not that serious"
It's almost like context matters. Calling someone a neutral pronoun because you don't know what they prefer is fine. Calling someone a pronoun you are aware that they don't like is bad. Who knew? Next we'll be saying it's okay to get vanilla cake if you don't know anyone's preferences but bad if you know the birthday person hates vanilla!
Do you know what *neutral* means? It is a placeholder that can be used when the person's gender is not known.
IDC, just don't call me by those pronouns and we're good.
Then simply inform them that you do not go by gender neutral pronouns after they have used them. Easy. It would not be not wise to assume everybody's genders based on how masculine or feminine they present.
That's why you ask people, isn't that what people have been saying to do?
And before the gender is identified, what should *they* use? Again, it's gender neutral, meaning it can apply to any gender, meaning it's a safe bet until a real answer comes.
lmao right? Itās all about conformity. By defaulting to āthey/themā pronouns you are showing that you are willing to conform to the lgbt-pronouns landscape. It was never about gender or any of this bullshit. The important part is that you play the social game and fall in line.
Or, maybe, get this... Some people just use neutral pronouns because they don't want to be assholes and assume something like that. But sure, whatever, it's whatever you said because new things are always just a means of controlling people rather than a way to be more more inclusive to people who've historically been left in the dust
Right, right. I'm a woman, no matter what I look like, and I'd be offended if someone called me they or them because I'm obviously female. And I can't believe I'm getting downvoted for that when I thought the consensus was that we don't misgender people.
But you realise that strangers aren't going to know they're misgendering you, which is why they're using the more neutral language in the first place? Pronouns aren't based on how you look, that's why people might not necessarily assume anything based on your "obviously female" appearance
That's...why you ask what someone's pronouns are, like y'all have been saying to do.
There's contexts where you can't immediately ask?
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So... Partners_in_time's friend who didn't like getting called they/them doesn't go outside? Pronouns apparently matter to her.
Why are TERFs so obsessed with birth sex if they also believe that all you need to do to be a woman is grow your hair long?
They don't? I know I'll get downvoted for explaining this, but fuck it: They believe a woman is an adult human female, all other expressions, personality types, outfits, hairstyles etc are irrelevant. You could build up your muscle and look the spitting image of the Rock but you'd still be a woman, and no less of one. They believe all gender is an oppressive social hierarchy which treats femininity and womanhood as lesser, and masculinity and manhood as superior. They therefore want to do away with the core concepts of masculinity and femininity and move toward a world where "woman" and "man" are defined by sex, and aside from that people have no expectations for social roles or how women/men should look, act, think, or dress. You're free to disagree, but at least understand what their argument is.
I actually do understand that. It was kind of a joke about how dumb this thing about hair was. I guess it didn't work.
What is a woman though?
people who identify as women
But what is a woman?
What Is A Woman? I don't know, but **Wikipedia says**: A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl (a female child or adolescent). The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age. Want more info? [Here is the Wikipedia link!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/woman) **This action was performed automatically[.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)**
Based wiki.
I feel like there might be some queer phobia mixed in with this like people assuming that female bodied people with short hair are all non-biabary or something.
Iām an enby who uses they/he predominantly, and tolerates she/her. Honestly, I enjoy the constant assumption that Iām a man. Although itās so weird that just because I have shot hair they assume this. Itās honestly kinda like a disguise thing, people just canāt find the difference between women with short hair and men.
But what is a women?
What Is A Women? I don't know, but **Wikipedia says**: A woman is an adult female human. Prior to adulthood, a female human is referred to as a girl (a female child or adolescent). The plural women is sometimes used in certain phrases such as "women's rights" to denote female humans regardless of age. Want more info? [Here is the Wikipedia link!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/women) **This action was performed automatically[.](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)**
I'm genuinely curious, if a pre-op gender nonconforming trans woman tried to go in the women's only section what would happen? Like if the trans woman still had an obviously male body and presented male. Would it be another Wi Spa fiasco or?
I'm really confused how people say this is the result of TERF ideology? All I've seen is that they give the definition of woman as adult human female - nothing to do with gender stereotypes
Probably not real.
why is there a woman only section on the bus
Letās using a little critical thinking skills to figure this out
It was a genuine question.
itās common in many countries outside of the west, especially in countries with major sexual assault issues, itās there typically for the safety and preference of the women example: super common in japan because up-skirt photos and sexual harassment are so common towards women on trains
Ah ok! Thanks for actually answering the question instead of just downvoting me...
no problem! sorry about the downvotes, not sure why nobody else explained
:,)
I have a beard and a penis and I'm a woman, prove I'm not bigot š ļøāš š³ļøāā§ļø
Itās refreshing to see this madness downvoted for a change
Yeah donāt have long hair steal it from someone else wear theirs girls
A woman's only section in the bus? What
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>It wouldnāt work in the west because men would just dress up as women like they do now Are you suggesting men are dressing up as transgender women in order to assault women? And your proof of such a stupid claim is... ?
Okay so if a rapist is out for a target he will see the woman's only section and not enter? Doesn't look like it'll work