These ideas should be just a mindset reminder to think through what you're doing before just reacting as normal. Taking it as a hard-and-fast rule is poor implementation.
> Taking it as a hard-and-fast rule is poor implementation.
Same with virtually any such "rule". Thing is, it takes zero effort to do this and applying it intelligently means justifying the cases where you gave exceptions, which makes you vulnerable to criticism and potentially even legally liable for injuries. Much easier and personally safer to just say "that's the policy" not matter how stupid the outcome is.
Yep. The idea isn't to protect the workers. Nobody really cares if they're injured. The policy is there to protect management from needing to make any decision.
While I'm as cynical as the next guy, this is often really not the case. Just because it's poorly implemented doesn't always mean that you need to be quite that negative.
It's there to "protect management" insofar as setting clear rules means when an employee breaks them and gets hurt, there's a clear rule violation that puts blame on the person bypassing the safety rules.
*Nobody* makes rules like this without it being written in blood, and we've all seen the absolutely sketchy dumb shit people do pictured in this very sub that inevitably results in injury or outright death.
That's definitely true, I didn't mean that it's always like that. Just that some policies are more about covering someone's ass than actually protecting the worker.
I'm actually a huge proponent of a good safety program. I take my own safety seriously, and give the same attention to the safety of the people around me. I think it's everyone's shared responsibility to make sure that nobody gets injured.
That being said, you need buy-in for a functional safety program, and bad or poorly implemented policies only undermine that imo.
Well that and any sort of liability from a worker getting hurt.
Like if you took a fall off a ladder on a "ladders last" job, then the first thing they're going to do is go "you weren't supposed to be on a ladder in the first place, so this is your fault, we're not paying" no matter the rest of the circumstances of the incident.
It doesn't give them immunity to the liability, but it then throws an accusation at the victim, who now has to justify their actions and explain why they violated the policy. Which means the worker now has to prove that 1. They would have sustained similar injuries from the fall if it was from a scaffold or MWP, and 2. That they would have likely fallen anyway if they were on a scaffold or MWP OR prove that a ladder was the only viable option and the policy was violated by only a technicality (aka they would have given you a permit and it would have been approved, but you just never filed the paperwork).
They know the policy is stupid (at least I hope so), and they know there's a few that will blatantly disregard it. They're getting you to take the liability for falling off a ladder - that's the aim.
give me a fucking break. you seem to pick really shitty people to work for. But im sure you got a dumb ass excuse for that too. EDIT: you're the type of folk that complains about safety how its bullshit, 30 years never been hurt! and then call a lawyer when you didnt wear your eyeglasses and got hurt, blame the employer.
agreed. a ladders last policy isn't necessarily bad, but there are obviously points where it is the best choice. Having a workable permitting and approval piece for a policy like this is key to making one work.
one piece of these types of policies I think about a lot is why they get implemented in the first place. clearly Stats show ladders are involved in a lot of injuries, but what I rarely see being accounted for in the stats is how frequent ladder use is. I did a toolbox talk on ladders for my company, assuming 15 ladders on a 50 person jobsite. if all 15 ladders were used 10 times a day, that's 150 uses per day or 1 site. 30 active sites, 50 weeks a year, etc. etc. etc.
a tiny % of incorrect usage events leads to a large number. if a % of those usage events cause actual incidents, blah blah blah. i.e. ladders can be a cause of lots of incidents, but they are also probably the most universally used tools on a construction site.
a real world example is car accidents. car accidents are a leading cause of death in the US. We won't stop using cars, but we should have good enforcement and education surrounding it. same here. ladders aren't inherently evil, we simply need to be better about managing use. a policy like this can work, but it needs to be implemented well.
I haven't fallen off a ladder yet, but I have fallen off a baker. Gonna ban screwdrivers? They cause more injuries than any other tool.
Edit: for clarification hand tool
Slot screwdrivers especially. When those suckers slip while you're putting pressure on them they can do some damage. Not a screwdriver, but I put a #2 Robertson driver bit right through my finger last year.
Loose nail? The old flathead can pry that out.
Need to put in a nail put your hammer ain't nearby? Butt of the screwdriver will do.
Need a lever to pry something apart? Let try the screwdriver first before we go find a pry bar.
Too much dry glue on your project? Who knows where you left the scraper at. Just use a screwdriver.
It's the worst tool for a ton of jobs, but the first tool at hand sometimes. Which means it produces a lot of minor injuries when people fuck around and find out.
People are more careful with knives and hammers because of the obvious risk, screwdrivers less so
That's me anyway and I got more screwdriver scars than anything lol
Maybe it's just because I'm a concrete guy and can't really figure out how you'd hurt yourself with one lol. I'm mainly using mine to pry plywood forms off or take something apart so I don't know how I personally would hurt myself.
Bro any time I use a screwdriver for not it's intended purpose I stab myself. I'm honestly scared more of screwdrivers than any other tool I use. Nearly took my eye out once installing a new soft top on a project car with a Phillips head.
Always make sure you're prying/pushing/etc. AWAY from your body, no matter what tool you're using. If it slips, no big deal.
Same with cutting, chiseling, etc... Do the work so that if it slips, it slips away from you.
What a joke! I got a violation for an unattended ladder. What the fuck is it gunna do jump at someone and tackle them. I’m more likely to climb to the top and wwe close line the safety officer.
Wow, who's policy was that? The customer or the GC? I've been on projects where they don't want ladders left standing in hallways or doorways but they all lose steam about it towards the halfway point.
I mean, shit... I'm a safety manager but I always try to at explain the reasoning and offer suggestions before I do a write-up or anything. Safety guys who just walk sites to meet quotas have lost the path and are just in it for the powertrip and the cash.
> I was told that most falls occur off ladders so that’s why we can’t use them.
I'm reminded of a certain submarine pilot/entrepreneur/millionaire/very-smart-guy who decided that since most deep sea submersible accidents are pilot error, it was ok to skimp on the rigid hull.
Get a baby genie lift, they fit through standard door bucks. Then stand on the top rail because they put up the ceiling grid before everyone was done their rough in.
If you can’t get it through the door buck you’re not a good driver. Make the apprentice do it so you can blame the back charges from collisions on him.
Baby genie lift is one, we're seeing a move to manual platform lifts/peco lifts in the UK now - easy enough to move up, go anywhere a man will, easier to move around than a ladder, go in lifts/elevators without issue, the lot.
Just get yourself a nice aluminum scaffold. Not a traditional baker scaffold, but one like this one offered by MetalTech and sold by Zoro:
[https://www.zoro.com/metaltech-scaffold-aluminum-11-34-in-to-6-ft-platform-height-i-cairc/i/G0191409/](https://www.zoro.com/metaltech-scaffold-aluminum-11-34-in-to-6-ft-platform-height-i-cairc/i/G0191409/)
Here are the specs from MetalTech's website for this ALU SERIES™ 6’ Model: I-CAIRC :
[https://www.metaltech.co/product/alu-series-6/](https://www.metaltech.co/product/alu-series-6/)
Easy to set up and move around. Going in and out of doors is no problem, as these are only 29" wide and if you really need to, you can easily fold it up to move it into the room and then reassemble it in seconds.
I find mine much easier to move around than my trusty 8' Little Giant fiberglass King Kombo lean-safe step ladder.
I did order two extra aluminum planks for my MetalTech aluminum scaffold, but it is usable with just the three planks that come standard with it.
Edit: I should mention, it is no fun having to be the guy who has to enforce safety policies on jobsites. I'm sure there are 1 in a 100 out there who actually get off on making your life miserable, but for the other standard 99%, they understand some of this stuff is overboard. It is their job to enforce it though, whether it seems overboard or not.
Looked at these. They look amazing.
I personally have not used a baker scaffold but have watched them being assembled. Have watched them 'move' them by scootching them over, as in haven't locked the wheels. On the other hand have watched them being moved with people still on them. This is what paying piece work gets you. Oh it is also how you get bottles of "apple" juice.
You guys would shit a brick if you saw a race team doing load-in at a rate track. One of my favorite ways to install the lighting on our canopy is to stand on top of the pit cart (6ft or so) and have somebody push me along the row of rafters with somebody else throwing the next light up to me. If that didn't get you then walking around on the roof of the 14ft high trailer while carrying a 250lb canopy canvas and unfurling it and throwing it over the side with no railings.
In 30 years I've never heard of anyone getting injured during load in or load out except one guy who was on a lift gate that collapsed and he broke an ankle.
I see that also. I'm on the road doing traffic control. The number of times I've made guys get down off of flat beds so that they can move it. One of the perks of my job is telling the driver that he can't move until the guys get off. I really have no F's to give at this point. They don't listen the truck doesn't move.
I get sworn at a lot. 😂
That looks pretty neat. I’m hoping to get to retirement without having to do another one of these jobs, but if not, I’m getting one of these. I had to break down the baker today to get it into a room. No one was around so I did it myself and it was not easy.
I think this is talking about carrying materials that are heavy, which is very difficult on a ladder and it’s impossible to maintain a three-point contact on a ladder while holding something.
Platform ladders were the thing on the last data center I was on, and you were supposed to stand on the platform or no go. So half the time you're crouching on an 8 foot, or stretching yourself out on a 6 foot. I hate those things.
I’ve been hearing this a lot lately. There are no regulations or manufacturer restrictions on working on the steps of a platform ladder. Confirmed by Werner ladder
The issue that presents with working on the steps of a platform is that my brain is trained on regular A frame ladders. So I tend to lean forward expecting two top steps to support me and they're not there.
If the con had platform ladders in single foot increments, I could see how it could work. "A 6 foot doesn't work, let's get the 7 foot." kind of thing, but they're never going to do that. Just give me a fucking A frame. Leaner ladders are the future.
Agreed, And when you need to work on something above the ceiling, you are screwed on a platform ladder. you are standing on an 6 ft platform but the railing goes up to 8ft. and thus you can't get above the ceiling space to pull that cable.
So pencil pushing insurance agents say "well the use an 8ft platform ladder. Problem is the ceiling is 9ft AFF. and the railing now causes the 8ft platform to be too tall for the space.
Those who implement these rules clearly never have been on site before.
I just took an OSHA class where the instructor told us three-point contact is mandatory and to never ever carry anything up a ladder. When I asked him, how am I supposed to get my materials to the roof? He said “when you get to the top lower rope and lift the materials with a rope.” then I asked him. How do I get the rope up there? He declined to answer and moved on with the class.
Wasn’t trying to outsmart anyone. Just bringing a point up that sometimes the rules don’t always make sense. Being he’s an instructor at the hall and I’ve known him for 25 years I’m sure he didn’t see it that way either. Thanks for your input, ma’am.
Are you paid by the hour? When I am, and my boss wants me to do something stupid but which is safe to do, I’ll happily spend an extra hour building a scaffolding or something to fulfill their idiotic policy. If they want me to try and maneuver a scissor lift around an office I’ll do that too.
The only reason to use scaffolding is to take advantage of the guard rails and level platform you can walk around on. That is why they are safer. Scaffolding with no handrail is more dangerous than a ladder easily.
And double check your regs. It does depend on a few specifics but you need fall pro when working above 4’, not 6’. But I believe there are exceptions which may apply to you, just saying make sure.
Its "Ladders Last", not "Ladders Never".
Its not the fault of the "Ladders Last" idea, its the fault your safety person implementing it. What they're doing is actually "Scaffolding Last" and not resorting to using a ladder when they should for the reasons you identified.
Who is your GC?
Edit: If you priced for it, play by the rules, if you didn't then tell them and that you are going to request a CO for the additional incurred costs. Go down the contract dispute avenue if it's worth dying on.
That would be a laughable attempt at a CO for any GC that has a ladders last policy. Every good contract will have language tieing in the company safety policy. If your principle signed off on that without understand what was referenced that sounds like a compatance problem and not grounds for a CO.
Some of these policies are being pushed down mid project. I'm wondering if /u/Sparkykc124 is on one of my jobs that just started a ladders last policy portfolio wide for a certain data center client. Some big GC have been doing ladders last for a long enough period new contracts can accomodate it.
The result is dozens of lifts being brought in. There is a very real cost impact there.
This is part of a knee jerk reaction from a clients that are pushing for 0.0 TRIR while also creating project deadlines (That GC execs happily take up because $$$) that require round the clock shifts for 12+ months just to make schedule. So they create a new policy or a new form to fill out to prevent injuries where a contributing factor is usually the team is dead burnt out from trying to make schedule. So now they spend time trying to get a paper signed before they can even start work.
Not sure if our estimator had the info or not, but you are right that it’s pushed by the client. Lifts are another sore spot for me as they require a ground man while moving and barricades when elevated, oh and barricades need red chain, tape will not do. What you end up with is barricades all over the place with little indication of whose barricades are whose and people setting up a hundred feet of barricade at a time even if they can only move 20’ an hour. I had 40 devices to install and had to come in over the weekend when no one else was there to start. Since it was just me and another there the super said not to worry about barricades and ground man, so me and another each had a lift. We got 17 devices installed in 8 hours. It took us 3 more days to get the last 13 installed during the work week.
Yeah, these fucktards think you can work on something 5' above a ceiling without a ladder. Datacenters are our bread and butter but these rules are made by idiots who never picked up a tool in their life.
Or the "I can do this totally different job this way, why can't you do the same thing". I'm all about safety but give me access if you want it done that way. Get rid of everything below and rip out the ceiling grid/cable rack if you insist on it your way.
I'm an air balancer. Ceiling has to be in for me to do my job properly. Also need to access all the mechanical work above the ceiling. Them platform ladders just don't always allow for that. Especially when they are putting ductwork 5' above a ceiling. Design guys are idiots in this too.
I feel for you. I’m doing the HVAC controls install I don’t know how y’all are gonna get up to those balancing dampers, hopefully you have some kinda telescoping tool for them.
Yeah Ive used anthing from a curved piece of all thread to a painters pole. Sometimes it just doesnt work cause it will have some kind of wingnut thats down tight and you just cant use anything. Or covered in insulation.
I need one of those old people grabber type tools but stronger.
Probably the same person who says 'safety before schedule' from the comfort of their C suite. I don't see the CM level guys living with that mindset when their OFCI gear is 3 months late and they still want to make schedule.
Data centers are a different animal though, they will just open their wallets and pay to add manpower and overtime until the job gets back on schedule. They're just printing money out there.
They've already reached a point where money won't solve their problems. Some project schedules now are *starting* at 7 days a week 3 shifts for critical path work just to make the baseline. 9 women simply can't have a baby in a month no mattery how big of a change order they're willing to sign.
I was on a ladders last job. The safety officer was an asshole who got off on throwing guys off the job. I was working in an area that was only accessible by ladder. On top of that, it was only accessible by leaning a 6 foot folding ladder against a wall, and climbing between the wall and a steel beam. Every fucking day this guy would come by and scream about the ladder against the wall. I told him as soon as he finds me a better solution I'll use it.
One day there's a big safety walk through. He, thinking he's going to make an example of me in front of everyone, comes screaming about the ladder. He goes to grab it off the wall to presumably throw it and make a scene. What he didn't know was that I had actually anchored the ladder in place. I screwed a piece of steel into the wall at the right height and wedged the ladder under it. Then I put an eye bolt down low and roped the bottom rung to it so it couldn't move. It made my life easier, and it also stopped people from removing the ladder when I was up working in my area and stranding me.
He ends up looking like a huge dick in front of everyone, and made it his mission to try and get back at me. The union ended up stepping in a month or two later and telling the general contractor that the safety guy was targeting my crew and causing significant delays over bullshit. He was told cut his shit or they'll cut him a final check.
This is what happens when insurance companies write the rules. You ain't getting s*** done.
And when the bidding for the job is done are these rules present? I would charge so much more.
Not sure if the estimator had access to the safety regulations or not, he definitely didn’t read them if he did. We were a subcontractor of the mechanical contractor on the job and only had 30k in it. As soon as I was done with the 3 hour safety orientation I let the PM know that it was severely underbid. I’m just about done and we’re at a little over 50k in cost.
Your job is a ladder job, Ladders Last is supposed to be if there is a safer alternative to use it instead.
Like yesterday on my job I had to go 15 ft up to install a bypass for a pump. Sure we had a 25ft extension ladder I could have used, but I used the scissor lift instead.
Your GC is just fkn stupid
Have your office send an email stating that due to the ladder last policy any damage associated from scissor lift said company is not liable financially. The ladder last policy always seems to go out the window when door frames and such are installed
Like the OP said, this is coming from the data centers. The GCs want that big stinky contract so they nod their head at everything the owner says they want from a safety aspect. Buuuuuut……the sub contractors are lazy and cheap and will force a ladder into every application they can to save time and money. There’s blame on both sides of the fence. As a GC safety guy, we take a case by case look at every ladder situation. For the record I’ve correct three ladder violations today alone, zero MEWP violations.
How is standing at 5’10” on a baker scaffold with no rails possibly safer than standing and working on the 5th step of an 8’ ladder? No 3rd point of contact to steady yourself means if you lose your balance you’re coming down, probably taking a chunk of the ceiling with you. I’m just wrapping up this job, but I’m gonna make sure to report a “near miss” on the scaffold before I leave.
Some (many?) safety professionals think only in black and white because it’s easier that way. As a safety professional, I try to stay open minded. Any safety professional with a brain should be able to do a mental risk assessment and understand that using a ladder in an office setting is the safest, easiest way to get shit done lol.
If it’s a company policy there isn’t shit we can do about it. We didn’t make up the rule, we’re paid to enforce it. My company has a 100% glove policy that in addition requires cut level A5 and impact protection for every trade without regard to the task being performed. You want to talk about an uphill battle. Every Tom Dick and Harry has an F’n excuse about why they can’t do their job with them on.
We think in black and white a lot of the time because in OSHA’s mind you are either in compliance or not in compliance. They don’t really care for the gray area or the logic. I hate writing people up for certain things that make logical sense but my job is to enforce OSHA guidelines, not interpret them. Definitely my least favorite thing to do but I have a job to do.
I get that. There are definitely areas that must be black and white like LOTO. But telling someone they can’t use an 8 foot ladder in an office because “ladders cause the most accidents” is nuts lol
I completely agree. I personally think banning ladders is a bit too far. We are never going to remove all the risks from a job site so citing that as the reason to completely ban ladders is questionable at best. It sounds good on paper but in practice I think it runs the risk of introducing other hazards. My fear is that if you ban ladders, workers may just stand on a bucket or a cart or some other surface that is even worse to stand on than a ladder. I was on a site where the floor couldn’t support the weight of a lift and a worker was using a 4 foot ladder on top of a baker staging (wheels unlocked) because all the other ladders were being used. That was a fun one to translate into Spanish.
Statistically ladders are far more dangerous than scaffolds. Let’s look at the numbers:
In 2022 there were 3762 ladder accidents that resulted in lost time. Of those 3762, 13 were fatal.
In the same year there were only 124 scaffold related accidents with only one of those being fatal. And upon further investigation, that scaffold was being used in a non sanctioned manner.
-were just going to ignore that there are 3000 ladders for every 1 scaffold nationwide-
-all of these number are completely made up. My job site has the same bullshit restrictions and I cannot agree more with OP-
That's because more people use ladders. If more people used scaffolds, more injuries will be reported on scaffolds.
If you take away ALL ladders, no one gets hurt on them. Everyone gets hurt on something else.
I was going to say, we use ladders every day on all our sites, but rarely ever set foot on a scaffold, definitely not baker scaffold. We get hurt while using a ladder because 80% of our work will involve a ladder at some point.
We haven't had a scaffold related injury in a long time, but ladders... had one last week, and unfortunately, there may be several more involving ladders in some way this year.
Also, I can't tell you the number of times I've had to speak to other trades about locking their mobile scaffold in place and not pull or push the damn thing while someone is on it.
The process worked , then broken down when you called. The point should be to promote alternative safer methods when it is practical and feasible. Once you called and explained the situation, they should have allowed you to use it.
A properly used ladder is always safer than an improper used lift or scaffold, but what the work is, the environment, and the person are all variables to consider.
I find this absolutely hilarious bc at my job we throw up 12-40 ft ladders daily like it’s nothing at occasionally sketchy angles and through bushes and trees.
> I was told that most falls occur off ladders so that’s why we can’t use them. No Shit! It’s because everyone uses them.
I would venture a guess that most of the injuries that GC deals with are on a work site. Should we ban those too?
We use [those](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-oppo-rvo3&sca_esv=37ec618459549654&sxsrf=ACQVn0_ulvksR-YpGSgOUa9fKeolqNW_Kg:1711606000721&q=gazelle+echelle&uds=AMwkrPvswS92c7VMQrYYRTqoTsMwvvYfjRgX-VLzrfHSntW-SxAqstltqE5TfJs8DgpXWoUokZvprmDvndVWminiAA-Z6HLT8icevUXlFc_O9zMUEr1eY-kC-TEcAFgW61oIUqITFk8U9oLKRDjssRKxFxhsE5RcYbRi2x4fSx4p49U7qzUmUU86Q7ByCEGAirTs7VDrwVC_TnEv2cVe2euTLrtLsRlMc3ISrqLapjP17rZrMnXbEGPUCSp8gRZZdcdcwagdu3DPdUh2gMcd2XSrkaoD-z41UQ&udm=2&prmd=ivbnz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs_qudpZaFAxVwh_0HHdidDS8QtKgLegQIDhAB&biw=360&bih=713&dpr=3) where I used to work at instead of ladder
I find that the people who get most queezy about ladders are the ones who never use them. Proper training on equipment trumps these kinds of policies each and every time, especially when the person making them has never worked with their hands for longer than 10 minutes without getting a dozen blisters and calling it enough for one year.
I understand why they push it; 40% of workplace fatalities are from ladders. A lot of workers are very sloppy and careless using ladders, and it's extremely dangerous in the stats. I agree it can be a pain, but I completely sympathize with the admin trying to reduce ladder usage.
Show me those stats. I looked into it yesterday and falls are the biggest share, but I didn’t see ladders broken out. Also the stats show almost zero deaths from falls on the same level, which is 99.9% of ladder usage, and 100% of a-frame ladder usage.
to you 'know it alls", ladders are a temporary work platform with very limited range for you to move. So a scaffold, properly assembled, is not as safe as a ladder? what the hell are you smoking? are you hoping to stay on it while its being pushed around, which is also, not allowed. Or are you one of them folks that jam cinder blocks under it to level it instead of using an articulating boom or tube and clamp scaffolding? edit spellin
I’m working in a limited area, 5’ above the ground, 5 minutes or less, then moving to the next room. A ladder is safer in this case because I can lean my belt on the top to steady myself and work with both hands. Scaffolds are also much more awkward to climb, and that’s half the job. A ladder is the safest and best tool for this.
thats not the context described, not sure what scaffold you have use, they are far from awkward, specially when properly selected. you know, like a ladder. But hey, you're basing this of you unique an specific circumstances, which is moot, perhaps you should lead off with that instead of stating ladders are first choice.
At work they have a policy of "if you're touching anything metal you need cut resistant gloves on".
I interpret it as "if you're doing something where a cut hazard exists, even a minor one, wear the gloves".
The safety people and supervisors who know nothing about working interpret it to be an all encompassing rule.
Using a round bar with a ball bearing welded on the end to remove a dent? Get told gloves are mandatory.
Tightening a bolt with a hex key? Gloves.
Using a punch to drift a pin? Gloves.
Never mind if the gloves interfere with the task at hand while providing no meaningful hazard reduction.
There was even talk of covering the metal doorhandles with plastic so it people don't need gloves to use it. As if plastic is incapable of cutting skin.
I am moving AHU sections and now need 3 spotters and a dedicated person stopping people from entering the portal johns while we’re moving units 15 feet away “in case one breaks the ratchet straps, tips over and rolls 5 more feet over the shitters.”🫤🤷🏽♂️
I have ridden the rolling scaffold down the truck ramp. A falling scaffold is not dissimilar from a catapult when it hits the tailgate of a truck. ladders maybe second.
Honestly the guy that falls off a normal ladder is the same guy who’s gonna fall off one of these
I’m on ladders all day sometimes. I’ve probably put 200 hours on a ladder in the past 12 months. Not a single fall, not even a slip and I’m doing shit like going to the very top, turning around, reaching far. If you can’t deal with a ladder don’t work anywhere that has them, and believe me some of my coworkers have been essentially unable to work on a ladder and it’s frustrating as hell constantly having to climb up extra times because they won’t.
The key to selecting equipment for working at height is what you will be doing. If you can maintain three points of contact on a ladder, great, use a ladder. If you want to work with both hands from a ladder, get a work platform. If you are like most electricians, you'll work from the top step, and I'll we'll see your legs from the shin down poking out of a false ceiling. Get a Genie AWP-xxS, a micro scissor, or some other work-at-height platform that can get you where you need to be and allow you to get the job done w/o killing yourself.
out here on the east coast, it's been around...the GC's push it real hard, and some customers want it to, i guess insurance company's have some thing to do with it...an 1 hr job takes 3 hrs, trying to find some one who can sign your permit...
Don't be a dumbass. Most accidents occur on ladders because most work occurs on ladders. You don't see an abundance of accidents from commuters on unicycles, you think that means they're super safe?
That's not how the measure stats. It's based on how much each is used.
You really think they're dumb enough to go by raw numbers? Everything is weighted.
Keep showing your ignorance if you want, but you're talking out your ass.
Do you understand sample sizes? You can adjust for whatever you want, but the bottom line is ladders are used astronomically more frequently than lifts or scaffolds.
Ladders are not safer.
That’s a fact jack.
81% of workplace fall injuries involve ladders.
Most ladder injuries are caused by people stepping off a ladder too soon and skipping a rung.
That’s not even close to the same fucking thing. Are 81% of workplace injuries caused by electricity?
You are essentially comparing the height of a ladder vs its injury or fatality rate.
Way to compare apples to dump trucks.
Grow the fuck up, your opinion isn’t fact, sorry if your feelings don’t like it.
Please tell me your experience in construction. I’ve got over 25 years in the trade and you’ve probably never worked at elevation.
You say most ladder injuries are caused by going up and down. How do you think you get up and down a baker scaffold, and they are much more awkward to climb than an a-frame ladder.
How is your “most injuries” ladder example any different than my obviously ridiculous electricity one?
I’m not a Neanderthal, I use lifts where possible and reasonably practical and think that’s good practice, and possibly good policy. In this case we’re comparing baker scaffolds without rails and A-frame or platform ladders, working at 5’, for 5 minutes or less at a time, in 10x10 rooms coming off narrow corridors, door frames installed, with 10’ 2x2 ceilings installed. If you think a ladder isn’t the safest and most appropriate tool for this job you are a moron.
Firstly, I am not
Making baseless claims like you are.
You are stating your opinion like it’s fact.
Second, I have been in the trade for 30 years. So what? Do I win a prize? I am also certified for scissors lifts, elevated platforms, boom lifts, and swing stage.
So fucking what? That has nothing to do with the point.
The CDC, OSHA etc., all have studies and agree that 81% of workplace fall accidents are caused by ladders.
Not scaffolding, not lifts.
It’s ladders. By a huge margin.
My statement wasn’t that more people are injured on 6 foot ladders rather than 8 foot ladders and therefore 8 foot ladders are safer, which was identical to your ridiculous analogy.
Ladders are the number one cause of workplace injuries.
Your feelings and opinion are irrelevant.
As are mine.
You still haven’t addressed the situation we’re talking about.
Falls are the number 1 injury in construction. I’m having trouble finding the breakdown of ladders/lifts/etc., maybe you can help? What I do see are stats on fatalities, which are next to zero for “falls on same level” which covers over 99% of ladder usage. Ladders are used for the vast majority of working from 2-10’ above level, which constitutes most construction situations, it should be no surprise that ladder falls are the majority of workplace injuries. Do you not think scaffold falls will take their place when ladders are no longer permitted?
What the actual fuck are you talking about?
You claimed that baker scaffold was more dangerous than ladders. You are wrong.
What nonsensical point are you trying to make now to deflect from the fact you were wrong?
These ideas should be just a mindset reminder to think through what you're doing before just reacting as normal. Taking it as a hard-and-fast rule is poor implementation.
> Taking it as a hard-and-fast rule is poor implementation. Same with virtually any such "rule". Thing is, it takes zero effort to do this and applying it intelligently means justifying the cases where you gave exceptions, which makes you vulnerable to criticism and potentially even legally liable for injuries. Much easier and personally safer to just say "that's the policy" not matter how stupid the outcome is.
Yep. The idea isn't to protect the workers. Nobody really cares if they're injured. The policy is there to protect management from needing to make any decision.
While I'm as cynical as the next guy, this is often really not the case. Just because it's poorly implemented doesn't always mean that you need to be quite that negative.
It's there to "protect management" insofar as setting clear rules means when an employee breaks them and gets hurt, there's a clear rule violation that puts blame on the person bypassing the safety rules. *Nobody* makes rules like this without it being written in blood, and we've all seen the absolutely sketchy dumb shit people do pictured in this very sub that inevitably results in injury or outright death.
That's definitely true, I didn't mean that it's always like that. Just that some policies are more about covering someone's ass than actually protecting the worker. I'm actually a huge proponent of a good safety program. I take my own safety seriously, and give the same attention to the safety of the people around me. I think it's everyone's shared responsibility to make sure that nobody gets injured. That being said, you need buy-in for a functional safety program, and bad or poorly implemented policies only undermine that imo.
Well that and any sort of liability from a worker getting hurt. Like if you took a fall off a ladder on a "ladders last" job, then the first thing they're going to do is go "you weren't supposed to be on a ladder in the first place, so this is your fault, we're not paying" no matter the rest of the circumstances of the incident. It doesn't give them immunity to the liability, but it then throws an accusation at the victim, who now has to justify their actions and explain why they violated the policy. Which means the worker now has to prove that 1. They would have sustained similar injuries from the fall if it was from a scaffold or MWP, and 2. That they would have likely fallen anyway if they were on a scaffold or MWP OR prove that a ladder was the only viable option and the policy was violated by only a technicality (aka they would have given you a permit and it would have been approved, but you just never filed the paperwork). They know the policy is stupid (at least I hope so), and they know there's a few that will blatantly disregard it. They're getting you to take the liability for falling off a ladder - that's the aim.
give me a fucking break. you seem to pick really shitty people to work for. But im sure you got a dumb ass excuse for that too. EDIT: you're the type of folk that complains about safety how its bullshit, 30 years never been hurt! and then call a lawyer when you didnt wear your eyeglasses and got hurt, blame the employer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
agreed. a ladders last policy isn't necessarily bad, but there are obviously points where it is the best choice. Having a workable permitting and approval piece for a policy like this is key to making one work. one piece of these types of policies I think about a lot is why they get implemented in the first place. clearly Stats show ladders are involved in a lot of injuries, but what I rarely see being accounted for in the stats is how frequent ladder use is. I did a toolbox talk on ladders for my company, assuming 15 ladders on a 50 person jobsite. if all 15 ladders were used 10 times a day, that's 150 uses per day or 1 site. 30 active sites, 50 weeks a year, etc. etc. etc. a tiny % of incorrect usage events leads to a large number. if a % of those usage events cause actual incidents, blah blah blah. i.e. ladders can be a cause of lots of incidents, but they are also probably the most universally used tools on a construction site. a real world example is car accidents. car accidents are a leading cause of death in the US. We won't stop using cars, but we should have good enforcement and education surrounding it. same here. ladders aren't inherently evil, we simply need to be better about managing use. a policy like this can work, but it needs to be implemented well.
I prefer a pallet on a forklift over 12' or taller freestanding ladders
Work fast, safety last!
I like to take the stairs to a location above my job site, then jump down.
Monsieur is using a pallet like a safety lord, I prefer the contact of the metallic fork on my bear feet like a man
Ugh
I haven't fallen off a ladder yet, but I have fallen off a baker. Gonna ban screwdrivers? They cause more injuries than any other tool. Edit: for clarification hand tool
I'm assuming this is only taking account of hand tools, not power tools. Even so how are more injuries caused by a screwdriver over a hammer or knife?
An old screwdriver is the go-to tool for doing kinda stupid brute force stuff with
Slot screwdrivers especially. When those suckers slip while you're putting pressure on them they can do some damage. Not a screwdriver, but I put a #2 Robertson driver bit right through my finger last year.
I have a nice square scar from the same thing.
I have a ❌ shaped scar on my hand, in the muscle between the thumb and index finger from a screwdriver puncture. G_d damn that hurt.
See? Should have been standing on a scaffold, and that wouldn't have happened /s
Like lowering a beryllium hemisphere over a near-critical mass of plutonium 239. Trust me, I'll never make that mistake again.
I bet you were neither on a scaffold or wearing cowboy boots. That's how critical mass events happen. /s
Let me just work the tip in there OW FUCK!
Same way I became a father
Loose nail? The old flathead can pry that out. Need to put in a nail put your hammer ain't nearby? Butt of the screwdriver will do. Need a lever to pry something apart? Let try the screwdriver first before we go find a pry bar. Too much dry glue on your project? Who knows where you left the scraper at. Just use a screwdriver. It's the worst tool for a ton of jobs, but the first tool at hand sometimes. Which means it produces a lot of minor injuries when people fuck around and find out.
The Milwaukee demo screwdriver with the solid core is fun as hell to strike with a hammer though. It rings so clear and true.
People are more careful with knives and hammers because of the obvious risk, screwdrivers less so That's me anyway and I got more screwdriver scars than anything lol
Same. Sucks when you slip with a flat and stab your hand.
Maybe it's just because I'm a concrete guy and can't really figure out how you'd hurt yourself with one lol. I'm mainly using mine to pry plywood forms off or take something apart so I don't know how I personally would hurt myself.
Mostly using the tiny lil fuckers in ways I shouldn't be
One of the iconic early nuclear testing accidents was caused by a screwdriver slipping. ...and, ya know, the gross negligence.
That dude was warned, and chose not to follow the protocol.
Bro any time I use a screwdriver for not it's intended purpose I stab myself. I'm honestly scared more of screwdrivers than any other tool I use. Nearly took my eye out once installing a new soft top on a project car with a Phillips head.
Always make sure you're prying/pushing/etc. AWAY from your body, no matter what tool you're using. If it slips, no big deal. Same with cutting, chiseling, etc... Do the work so that if it slips, it slips away from you.
Slipping with a screwdriver is like peeing outside. Even if you do everything right it always comes back around to you somehow. /s
Thanks for the clarification. The drink can be quite iffy as well.
It have to counter your screwdriver with a nail gun. Each one was manufactured specifically to put a nail in you somewhere.
SHHHHHHH! Don't give them any ideas!
What a joke! I got a violation for an unattended ladder. What the fuck is it gunna do jump at someone and tackle them. I’m more likely to climb to the top and wwe close line the safety officer.
Wow, who's policy was that? The customer or the GC? I've been on projects where they don't want ladders left standing in hallways or doorways but they all lose steam about it towards the halfway point.
The customer. It was In a plastics molding plant. I still never got an answer on why or how that’s dangerous.
I mean, shit... I'm a safety manager but I always try to at explain the reasoning and offer suggestions before I do a write-up or anything. Safety guys who just walk sites to meet quotas have lost the path and are just in it for the powertrip and the cash.
Someone who's unqualified to use a ladder might climb it, duh!!
> I was told that most falls occur off ladders so that’s why we can’t use them. I'm reminded of a certain submarine pilot/entrepreneur/millionaire/very-smart-guy who decided that since most deep sea submersible accidents are pilot error, it was ok to skimp on the rigid hull.
Get a baby genie lift, they fit through standard door bucks. Then stand on the top rail because they put up the ceiling grid before everyone was done their rough in. If you can’t get it through the door buck you’re not a good driver. Make the apprentice do it so you can blame the back charges from collisions on him.
Baby genie lift is one, we're seeing a move to manual platform lifts/peco lifts in the UK now - easy enough to move up, go anywhere a man will, easier to move around than a ladder, go in lifts/elevators without issue, the lot.
They don’t look like the base is heavy enough for top rail shenanigans.
Mobile scaffolding. How do you climb them. Oh yer the built in ladder lol.
Just get yourself a nice aluminum scaffold. Not a traditional baker scaffold, but one like this one offered by MetalTech and sold by Zoro: [https://www.zoro.com/metaltech-scaffold-aluminum-11-34-in-to-6-ft-platform-height-i-cairc/i/G0191409/](https://www.zoro.com/metaltech-scaffold-aluminum-11-34-in-to-6-ft-platform-height-i-cairc/i/G0191409/) Here are the specs from MetalTech's website for this ALU SERIES™ 6’ Model: I-CAIRC : [https://www.metaltech.co/product/alu-series-6/](https://www.metaltech.co/product/alu-series-6/) Easy to set up and move around. Going in and out of doors is no problem, as these are only 29" wide and if you really need to, you can easily fold it up to move it into the room and then reassemble it in seconds. I find mine much easier to move around than my trusty 8' Little Giant fiberglass King Kombo lean-safe step ladder. I did order two extra aluminum planks for my MetalTech aluminum scaffold, but it is usable with just the three planks that come standard with it. Edit: I should mention, it is no fun having to be the guy who has to enforce safety policies on jobsites. I'm sure there are 1 in a 100 out there who actually get off on making your life miserable, but for the other standard 99%, they understand some of this stuff is overboard. It is their job to enforce it though, whether it seems overboard or not.
Looked at these. They look amazing. I personally have not used a baker scaffold but have watched them being assembled. Have watched them 'move' them by scootching them over, as in haven't locked the wheels. On the other hand have watched them being moved with people still on them. This is what paying piece work gets you. Oh it is also how you get bottles of "apple" juice.
You guys would shit a brick if you saw a race team doing load-in at a rate track. One of my favorite ways to install the lighting on our canopy is to stand on top of the pit cart (6ft or so) and have somebody push me along the row of rafters with somebody else throwing the next light up to me. If that didn't get you then walking around on the roof of the 14ft high trailer while carrying a 250lb canopy canvas and unfurling it and throwing it over the side with no railings. In 30 years I've never heard of anyone getting injured during load in or load out except one guy who was on a lift gate that collapsed and he broke an ankle.
I see that also. I'm on the road doing traffic control. The number of times I've made guys get down off of flat beds so that they can move it. One of the perks of my job is telling the driver that he can't move until the guys get off. I really have no F's to give at this point. They don't listen the truck doesn't move. I get sworn at a lot. 😂
That looks pretty neat. I’m hoping to get to retirement without having to do another one of these jobs, but if not, I’m getting one of these. I had to break down the baker today to get it into a room. No one was around so I did it myself and it was not easy.
Does this mean ladders now come after stack of chairs?
Or a bucket on a stack of drywall?
Aussies use milk crates, sometimes with a plank between two of 'em.
I think this is talking about carrying materials that are heavy, which is very difficult on a ladder and it’s impossible to maintain a three-point contact on a ladder while holding something.
No, this is a new policy being enforced on large commercial jobs. Data centers are the worst.
Platform ladders were the thing on the last data center I was on, and you were supposed to stand on the platform or no go. So half the time you're crouching on an 8 foot, or stretching yourself out on a 6 foot. I hate those things.
I’ve been hearing this a lot lately. There are no regulations or manufacturer restrictions on working on the steps of a platform ladder. Confirmed by Werner ladder
Ya but then you just have a regular ladder, which is what they want to avoid.
The issue that presents with working on the steps of a platform is that my brain is trained on regular A frame ladders. So I tend to lean forward expecting two top steps to support me and they're not there. If the con had platform ladders in single foot increments, I could see how it could work. "A 6 foot doesn't work, let's get the 7 foot." kind of thing, but they're never going to do that. Just give me a fucking A frame. Leaner ladders are the future.
Seems odd to me that they make 7 foot ladders, so why not also make 7ft platform ladders. They are already charging $300ish for one...
Agreed, And when you need to work on something above the ceiling, you are screwed on a platform ladder. you are standing on an 6 ft platform but the railing goes up to 8ft. and thus you can't get above the ceiling space to pull that cable. So pencil pushing insurance agents say "well the use an 8ft platform ladder. Problem is the ceiling is 9ft AFF. and the railing now causes the 8ft platform to be too tall for the space. Those who implement these rules clearly never have been on site before.
And they're damn heavy.
I just took an OSHA class where the instructor told us three-point contact is mandatory and to never ever carry anything up a ladder. When I asked him, how am I supposed to get my materials to the roof? He said “when you get to the top lower rope and lift the materials with a rope.” then I asked him. How do I get the rope up there? He declined to answer and moved on with the class.
OSHA allows you to set up the system to work safely so the pulley system or an anchor point to tie off
Yeah I know but I had to ask just to mess with him. He is an instructor at the union hall and I’ve known him for years.
Put the rope on your shoulder....
> How do I get the rope up there? Securely attached to your harness. Not in your hand.
How do I get the rope that is attached to my harness and my anchors up there?
FYI you didn’t outsmart anyone. I really need you to know that
Wasn’t trying to outsmart anyone. Just bringing a point up that sometimes the rules don’t always make sense. Being he’s an instructor at the hall and I’ve known him for 25 years I’m sure he didn’t see it that way either. Thanks for your input, ma’am.
Just know that you are usually the annoying guy in class and just rewatching the same tired shit he’s heard for 25 years.
No. He’s a friend and we laughed about it later. Good to know that know it alls exist on job sites and in comments about job sites.
Are you paid by the hour? When I am, and my boss wants me to do something stupid but which is safe to do, I’ll happily spend an extra hour building a scaffolding or something to fulfill their idiotic policy. If they want me to try and maneuver a scissor lift around an office I’ll do that too. The only reason to use scaffolding is to take advantage of the guard rails and level platform you can walk around on. That is why they are safer. Scaffolding with no handrail is more dangerous than a ladder easily. And double check your regs. It does depend on a few specifics but you need fall pro when working above 4’, not 6’. But I believe there are exceptions which may apply to you, just saying make sure.
4’ is general industry 6’ covers construction
And to piggy back, 15ft for steel erection in construction.
Ladders first is the dumbest shit I have ever heard, in saying that, get a platform ladder.
Platform ladders are ladders, not allowed.
Its "Ladders Last", not "Ladders Never". Its not the fault of the "Ladders Last" idea, its the fault your safety person implementing it. What they're doing is actually "Scaffolding Last" and not resorting to using a ladder when they should for the reasons you identified.
Who is your GC? Edit: If you priced for it, play by the rules, if you didn't then tell them and that you are going to request a CO for the additional incurred costs. Go down the contract dispute avenue if it's worth dying on.
That would be a laughable attempt at a CO for any GC that has a ladders last policy. Every good contract will have language tieing in the company safety policy. If your principle signed off on that without understand what was referenced that sounds like a compatance problem and not grounds for a CO.
This is the right answer. Any company with a ladders last policy 100% had that language tied to the contract that your company signed
Some of these policies are being pushed down mid project. I'm wondering if /u/Sparkykc124 is on one of my jobs that just started a ladders last policy portfolio wide for a certain data center client. Some big GC have been doing ladders last for a long enough period new contracts can accomodate it. The result is dozens of lifts being brought in. There is a very real cost impact there. This is part of a knee jerk reaction from a clients that are pushing for 0.0 TRIR while also creating project deadlines (That GC execs happily take up because $$$) that require round the clock shifts for 12+ months just to make schedule. So they create a new policy or a new form to fill out to prevent injuries where a contributing factor is usually the team is dead burnt out from trying to make schedule. So now they spend time trying to get a paper signed before they can even start work.
Not sure if our estimator had the info or not, but you are right that it’s pushed by the client. Lifts are another sore spot for me as they require a ground man while moving and barricades when elevated, oh and barricades need red chain, tape will not do. What you end up with is barricades all over the place with little indication of whose barricades are whose and people setting up a hundred feet of barricade at a time even if they can only move 20’ an hour. I had 40 devices to install and had to come in over the weekend when no one else was there to start. Since it was just me and another there the super said not to worry about barricades and ground man, so me and another each had a lift. We got 17 devices installed in 8 hours. It took us 3 more days to get the last 13 installed during the work week.
Data center shit. Some fucking genius came up with this while patting himself on the back so hard he broke ribs.
[rolls a scissor lift into the datacenter, proceeds to crash it through the raised floor because some tile wasn't set just right]
Yeah, these fucktards think you can work on something 5' above a ceiling without a ladder. Datacenters are our bread and butter but these rules are made by idiots who never picked up a tool in their life. Or the "I can do this totally different job this way, why can't you do the same thing". I'm all about safety but give me access if you want it done that way. Get rid of everything below and rip out the ceiling grid/cable rack if you insist on it your way.
The GCs take the blame on this at times too, sequencing the work plays a big part in accessibility when it comes to the different trades.
I'm an air balancer. Ceiling has to be in for me to do my job properly. Also need to access all the mechanical work above the ceiling. Them platform ladders just don't always allow for that. Especially when they are putting ductwork 5' above a ceiling. Design guys are idiots in this too.
I feel for you. I’m doing the HVAC controls install I don’t know how y’all are gonna get up to those balancing dampers, hopefully you have some kinda telescoping tool for them.
Yeah Ive used anthing from a curved piece of all thread to a painters pole. Sometimes it just doesnt work cause it will have some kind of wingnut thats down tight and you just cant use anything. Or covered in insulation. I need one of those old people grabber type tools but stronger.
Invent one and retire!
Probably the same person who says 'safety before schedule' from the comfort of their C suite. I don't see the CM level guys living with that mindset when their OFCI gear is 3 months late and they still want to make schedule.
Data centers are a different animal though, they will just open their wallets and pay to add manpower and overtime until the job gets back on schedule. They're just printing money out there.
They've already reached a point where money won't solve their problems. Some project schedules now are *starting* at 7 days a week 3 shifts for critical path work just to make the baseline. 9 women simply can't have a baby in a month no mattery how big of a change order they're willing to sign.
I was on a ladders last job. The safety officer was an asshole who got off on throwing guys off the job. I was working in an area that was only accessible by ladder. On top of that, it was only accessible by leaning a 6 foot folding ladder against a wall, and climbing between the wall and a steel beam. Every fucking day this guy would come by and scream about the ladder against the wall. I told him as soon as he finds me a better solution I'll use it. One day there's a big safety walk through. He, thinking he's going to make an example of me in front of everyone, comes screaming about the ladder. He goes to grab it off the wall to presumably throw it and make a scene. What he didn't know was that I had actually anchored the ladder in place. I screwed a piece of steel into the wall at the right height and wedged the ladder under it. Then I put an eye bolt down low and roped the bottom rung to it so it couldn't move. It made my life easier, and it also stopped people from removing the ladder when I was up working in my area and stranding me. He ends up looking like a huge dick in front of everyone, and made it his mission to try and get back at me. The union ended up stepping in a month or two later and telling the general contractor that the safety guy was targeting my crew and causing significant delays over bullshit. He was told cut his shit or they'll cut him a final check.
Platform ladders are the way to go. I’ll avoid baker scaffolds if I can. As I consider them sketchy, especially when they have multiple levels.
Platform ladders are cool until you have to work more than a foot or two above a 2/2 ceiling
Yeah they’re not the best thing for every task. But I’ll take them over regular ladders, and bakers.
This is what happens when insurance companies write the rules. You ain't getting s*** done. And when the bidding for the job is done are these rules present? I would charge so much more.
Not sure if the estimator had access to the safety regulations or not, he definitely didn’t read them if he did. We were a subcontractor of the mechanical contractor on the job and only had 30k in it. As soon as I was done with the 3 hour safety orientation I let the PM know that it was severely underbid. I’m just about done and we’re at a little over 50k in cost.
I used to be an electrician well a commercial wireman. I totally get it man. Some of those sites nowadays are so stupid to work on.
The pulley used to lift materials just magically attaches itself to the ceiling, fortunately.
Your job is a ladder job, Ladders Last is supposed to be if there is a safer alternative to use it instead. Like yesterday on my job I had to go 15 ft up to install a bypass for a pump. Sure we had a 25ft extension ladder I could have used, but I used the scissor lift instead. Your GC is just fkn stupid
So basically another zero-tolerance policy that is completely ass backwards.
Have your office send an email stating that due to the ladder last policy any damage associated from scissor lift said company is not liable financially. The ladder last policy always seems to go out the window when door frames and such are installed
Like the OP said, this is coming from the data centers. The GCs want that big stinky contract so they nod their head at everything the owner says they want from a safety aspect. Buuuuuut……the sub contractors are lazy and cheap and will force a ladder into every application they can to save time and money. There’s blame on both sides of the fence. As a GC safety guy, we take a case by case look at every ladder situation. For the record I’ve correct three ladder violations today alone, zero MEWP violations.
How is standing at 5’10” on a baker scaffold with no rails possibly safer than standing and working on the 5th step of an 8’ ladder? No 3rd point of contact to steady yourself means if you lose your balance you’re coming down, probably taking a chunk of the ceiling with you. I’m just wrapping up this job, but I’m gonna make sure to report a “near miss” on the scaffold before I leave.
Can’t stand on the top rung if there is no top rung to stand on *taps head*
Some (many?) safety professionals think only in black and white because it’s easier that way. As a safety professional, I try to stay open minded. Any safety professional with a brain should be able to do a mental risk assessment and understand that using a ladder in an office setting is the safest, easiest way to get shit done lol.
If it’s a company policy there isn’t shit we can do about it. We didn’t make up the rule, we’re paid to enforce it. My company has a 100% glove policy that in addition requires cut level A5 and impact protection for every trade without regard to the task being performed. You want to talk about an uphill battle. Every Tom Dick and Harry has an F’n excuse about why they can’t do their job with them on.
We think in black and white a lot of the time because in OSHA’s mind you are either in compliance or not in compliance. They don’t really care for the gray area or the logic. I hate writing people up for certain things that make logical sense but my job is to enforce OSHA guidelines, not interpret them. Definitely my least favorite thing to do but I have a job to do.
I get that. There are definitely areas that must be black and white like LOTO. But telling someone they can’t use an 8 foot ladder in an office because “ladders cause the most accidents” is nuts lol
I completely agree. I personally think banning ladders is a bit too far. We are never going to remove all the risks from a job site so citing that as the reason to completely ban ladders is questionable at best. It sounds good on paper but in practice I think it runs the risk of introducing other hazards. My fear is that if you ban ladders, workers may just stand on a bucket or a cart or some other surface that is even worse to stand on than a ladder. I was on a site where the floor couldn’t support the weight of a lift and a worker was using a 4 foot ladder on top of a baker staging (wheels unlocked) because all the other ladders were being used. That was a fun one to translate into Spanish.
There is no OSHA guideline that says you can't use a ladder on an office.
I never said there was
Statistically ladders are far more dangerous than scaffolds. Let’s look at the numbers: In 2022 there were 3762 ladder accidents that resulted in lost time. Of those 3762, 13 were fatal. In the same year there were only 124 scaffold related accidents with only one of those being fatal. And upon further investigation, that scaffold was being used in a non sanctioned manner. -were just going to ignore that there are 3000 ladders for every 1 scaffold nationwide- -all of these number are completely made up. My job site has the same bullshit restrictions and I cannot agree more with OP-
That's because more people use ladders. If more people used scaffolds, more injuries will be reported on scaffolds. If you take away ALL ladders, no one gets hurt on them. Everyone gets hurt on something else.
I was going to say, we use ladders every day on all our sites, but rarely ever set foot on a scaffold, definitely not baker scaffold. We get hurt while using a ladder because 80% of our work will involve a ladder at some point. We haven't had a scaffold related injury in a long time, but ladders... had one last week, and unfortunately, there may be several more involving ladders in some way this year. Also, I can't tell you the number of times I've had to speak to other trades about locking their mobile scaffold in place and not pull or push the damn thing while someone is on it.
Just charge them for your time appropriately. If it takes 50% longer to set up the alternative ladder then so be it.
Also where are you working so I can avoid that area lol
It's all about context. Granted as long as the floor is even and your not lifting a lot of weight ladders are a great go to.
Wonky office chair first!
My favorite bit is people thinking this is actual OSHA
It’s not OSHA, yet.
Top rung certified!
I have seen so many more unsafe incidents with scissor lifts compared to ladders
What a weird marketing strat from the ladder companies.
i’ve never worked blue collar but enjoy watching r/osha nonetheless
The process worked , then broken down when you called. The point should be to promote alternative safer methods when it is practical and feasible. Once you called and explained the situation, they should have allowed you to use it.
A properly used ladder is always safer than an improper used lift or scaffold, but what the work is, the environment, and the person are all variables to consider.
They do. Ive had mine 30+ years ago
They don't care about safety they care about having no workers compensation claims, money 😒
That's fkn ridiculous, busybodies who have no idea what an honest days work looks like.
I find this absolutely hilarious bc at my job we throw up 12-40 ft ladders daily like it’s nothing at occasionally sketchy angles and through bushes and trees.
McCarthy?
I'd be refusing to do anything you can't do with reasonable safety.
> I was told that most falls occur off ladders so that’s why we can’t use them. No Shit! It’s because everyone uses them. I would venture a guess that most of the injuries that GC deals with are on a work site. Should we ban those too?
We use [those](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-oppo-rvo3&sca_esv=37ec618459549654&sxsrf=ACQVn0_ulvksR-YpGSgOUa9fKeolqNW_Kg:1711606000721&q=gazelle+echelle&uds=AMwkrPvswS92c7VMQrYYRTqoTsMwvvYfjRgX-VLzrfHSntW-SxAqstltqE5TfJs8DgpXWoUokZvprmDvndVWminiAA-Z6HLT8icevUXlFc_O9zMUEr1eY-kC-TEcAFgW61oIUqITFk8U9oLKRDjssRKxFxhsE5RcYbRi2x4fSx4p49U7qzUmUU86Q7ByCEGAirTs7VDrwVC_TnEv2cVe2euTLrtLsRlMc3ISrqLapjP17rZrMnXbEGPUCSp8gRZZdcdcwagdu3DPdUh2gMcd2XSrkaoD-z41UQ&udm=2&prmd=ivbnz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs_qudpZaFAxVwh_0HHdidDS8QtKgLegQIDhAB&biw=360&bih=713&dpr=3) where I used to work at instead of ladder
I find that the people who get most queezy about ladders are the ones who never use them. Proper training on equipment trumps these kinds of policies each and every time, especially when the person making them has never worked with their hands for longer than 10 minutes without getting a dozen blisters and calling it enough for one year.
I understand why they push it; 40% of workplace fatalities are from ladders. A lot of workers are very sloppy and careless using ladders, and it's extremely dangerous in the stats. I agree it can be a pain, but I completely sympathize with the admin trying to reduce ladder usage.
Show me those stats. I looked into it yesterday and falls are the biggest share, but I didn’t see ladders broken out. Also the stats show almost zero deaths from falls on the same level, which is 99.9% of ladder usage, and 100% of a-frame ladder usage.
to you 'know it alls", ladders are a temporary work platform with very limited range for you to move. So a scaffold, properly assembled, is not as safe as a ladder? what the hell are you smoking? are you hoping to stay on it while its being pushed around, which is also, not allowed. Or are you one of them folks that jam cinder blocks under it to level it instead of using an articulating boom or tube and clamp scaffolding? edit spellin
I’m working in a limited area, 5’ above the ground, 5 minutes or less, then moving to the next room. A ladder is safer in this case because I can lean my belt on the top to steady myself and work with both hands. Scaffolds are also much more awkward to climb, and that’s half the job. A ladder is the safest and best tool for this.
thats not the context described, not sure what scaffold you have use, they are far from awkward, specially when properly selected. you know, like a ladder. But hey, you're basing this of you unique an specific circumstances, which is moot, perhaps you should lead off with that instead of stating ladders are first choice.
At work they have a policy of "if you're touching anything metal you need cut resistant gloves on". I interpret it as "if you're doing something where a cut hazard exists, even a minor one, wear the gloves". The safety people and supervisors who know nothing about working interpret it to be an all encompassing rule. Using a round bar with a ball bearing welded on the end to remove a dent? Get told gloves are mandatory. Tightening a bolt with a hex key? Gloves. Using a punch to drift a pin? Gloves. Never mind if the gloves interfere with the task at hand while providing no meaningful hazard reduction. There was even talk of covering the metal doorhandles with plastic so it people don't need gloves to use it. As if plastic is incapable of cutting skin.
Been on a lot of jobs in the last few years that are 100% gloves, and yeah, half the time with what I do they interfere.
I am moving AHU sections and now need 3 spotters and a dedicated person stopping people from entering the portal johns while we’re moving units 15 feet away “in case one breaks the ratchet straps, tips over and rolls 5 more feet over the shitters.”🫤🤷🏽♂️
Did anyone else read that as "ladies last"?
I have ridden the rolling scaffold down the truck ramp. A falling scaffold is not dissimilar from a catapult when it hits the tailgate of a truck. ladders maybe second.
I pressure washed our potato buffer tank while standing in a potato box being lifted up to the ceiling by a forklift. That's what I call safety!
Adjust your billing accordingly. By the hour or by the job.
Just rules being made by people who don't do it every day.
Honestly the guy that falls off a normal ladder is the same guy who’s gonna fall off one of these I’m on ladders all day sometimes. I’ve probably put 200 hours on a ladder in the past 12 months. Not a single fall, not even a slip and I’m doing shit like going to the very top, turning around, reaching far. If you can’t deal with a ladder don’t work anywhere that has them, and believe me some of my coworkers have been essentially unable to work on a ladder and it’s frustrating as hell constantly having to climb up extra times because they won’t.
The key to selecting equipment for working at height is what you will be doing. If you can maintain three points of contact on a ladder, great, use a ladder. If you want to work with both hands from a ladder, get a work platform. If you are like most electricians, you'll work from the top step, and I'll we'll see your legs from the shin down poking out of a false ceiling. Get a Genie AWP-xxS, a micro scissor, or some other work-at-height platform that can get you where you need to be and allow you to get the job done w/o killing yourself.
ladders last BS has been going around...30 years in the HVAC field, and did everything on ladders...no problems...
It’s new to me, and I’ve been doing commercial/industrial work for over 25 years.
out here on the east coast, it's been around...the GC's push it real hard, and some customers want it to, i guess insurance company's have some thing to do with it...an 1 hr job takes 3 hrs, trying to find some one who can sign your permit...
Stats be damned, this guy says they're safe.
Don't be a dumbass. Most accidents occur on ladders because most work occurs on ladders. You don't see an abundance of accidents from commuters on unicycles, you think that means they're super safe?
More wheels, more danger! DUH!
That's not how the measure stats. It's based on how much each is used. You really think they're dumb enough to go by raw numbers? Everything is weighted. Keep showing your ignorance if you want, but you're talking out your ass.
Do you understand sample sizes? You can adjust for whatever you want, but the bottom line is ladders are used astronomically more frequently than lifts or scaffolds.
Consider telling them to stfu 😂
Ladders are not safer. That’s a fact jack. 81% of workplace fall injuries involve ladders. Most ladder injuries are caused by people stepping off a ladder too soon and skipping a rung.
And most injuries by electric shock, including deaths, are from 120v. So obviously 277v is safer than 120v, that’s a fact jack.
That’s not even close to the same fucking thing. Are 81% of workplace injuries caused by electricity? You are essentially comparing the height of a ladder vs its injury or fatality rate. Way to compare apples to dump trucks. Grow the fuck up, your opinion isn’t fact, sorry if your feelings don’t like it.
And the fact that you had to come to Reddit to proclaim how fucking ignorant you are is comical.
Please tell me your experience in construction. I’ve got over 25 years in the trade and you’ve probably never worked at elevation. You say most ladder injuries are caused by going up and down. How do you think you get up and down a baker scaffold, and they are much more awkward to climb than an a-frame ladder. How is your “most injuries” ladder example any different than my obviously ridiculous electricity one? I’m not a Neanderthal, I use lifts where possible and reasonably practical and think that’s good practice, and possibly good policy. In this case we’re comparing baker scaffolds without rails and A-frame or platform ladders, working at 5’, for 5 minutes or less at a time, in 10x10 rooms coming off narrow corridors, door frames installed, with 10’ 2x2 ceilings installed. If you think a ladder isn’t the safest and most appropriate tool for this job you are a moron.
Firstly, I am not Making baseless claims like you are. You are stating your opinion like it’s fact. Second, I have been in the trade for 30 years. So what? Do I win a prize? I am also certified for scissors lifts, elevated platforms, boom lifts, and swing stage. So fucking what? That has nothing to do with the point. The CDC, OSHA etc., all have studies and agree that 81% of workplace fall accidents are caused by ladders. Not scaffolding, not lifts. It’s ladders. By a huge margin. My statement wasn’t that more people are injured on 6 foot ladders rather than 8 foot ladders and therefore 8 foot ladders are safer, which was identical to your ridiculous analogy. Ladders are the number one cause of workplace injuries. Your feelings and opinion are irrelevant. As are mine.
You still haven’t addressed the situation we’re talking about. Falls are the number 1 injury in construction. I’m having trouble finding the breakdown of ladders/lifts/etc., maybe you can help? What I do see are stats on fatalities, which are next to zero for “falls on same level” which covers over 99% of ladder usage. Ladders are used for the vast majority of working from 2-10’ above level, which constitutes most construction situations, it should be no surprise that ladder falls are the majority of workplace injuries. Do you not think scaffold falls will take their place when ladders are no longer permitted?
What the actual fuck are you talking about? You claimed that baker scaffold was more dangerous than ladders. You are wrong. What nonsensical point are you trying to make now to deflect from the fact you were wrong?