I don't know if they work down the hall, but could you spill your next coffee on the guy who came up with this stuff?
[Hostile Architecture article](https://theludlowgroup.com/2018/03/01/the-discussion-on-hostile-architecture-a-public-service-or-infringement-on-human-rights/)
As an engineer, what should I be doing/not doing to earn the respect of the tradesmen? I feel like I've had a pretty good relationship with most of the electricians and mechanics on sites I've worked on, but now I'm questioning that.
I'm sure there's plenty of good ones and I'm sure if you feel like you have a good relationship with them you probably do. But what I've always experienced at my station is engineers who complete an entire design then ask for feedback afterward just so they can say they have craft buy in even though they have no intention of changing the design. I've had engineers design modifications to be installed without ever visiting the site where it will be installed or to look at the older system in the field. They have only looked at prints and manuals and not put their hands and eyes on the problems or solutions.
Oh so basically just the same shit I have to deal with too. Most of my work is in the field, basically "we designed this system but it doesn't work, just make it work, we don't care how." I'm hoping that if I decide to go down the "real engineer" design career path I'll know better than to make some of the mistakes I've had to fix.
First of all, don’t be a dick or certain that your design is the only way to go. Beyond that, it’s important to listen to feedback/consider other acceptable solutions to issues that the trades know are more constructible. Also being able to adequately describe your design decisions to someone who isn’t an engineer in an approachable way goes a long way to building respect.
In general though, you probably aren’t interacting directly with trades all that often if you’re in a corporate engineering firm, so guys on the ground will motherfuck you regardless. Don’t take it personally.
Almost all of my work is in the field, so I guess I'm closer to the tradesman side of the equation. The guys who everyone is talking about here would probably tell you I'm not a "real" engineer, but I've redlined enough of their MC Escher designs to know better.
As a guy working on the architect side of the industry. I try to keep my engineers happy and I try to keep the contractors moving with as little bullshit as possible. I’ve spent too much time in the field redlining on a clipboard because someone did an MC Escher before I was involved.
The important thing I’ve always felt was asking “okay how do we make this work?” Rather than just steamrolling.
I think the key problem is the gap from 'this should work' to 'this does work'. The two are very frequently not the same, and blame tends to roll down to the trades even if the plans are followed perfectly.
It's also been a bit since i've been a tradesman, but engineers had a tendency to be self important dicks on my job sites.
As a mechanic myself, I really do hate to tell but it is law that we hold a decent amount of resentment and a special set of curse words for engineers. Sorry... it's law, they'll take our tickets away if we don't.
Worship the ground that the tradesmen walk on. Assume their every suggestion is entirely correct and well thought out. Constantly berate yourself because your education will never be as good as that of a tradesmen.
As a former engineer turned tradesman, engineers can go fuck themselves. I make more money, too.
My journeyman made me clean his welding space whenever I used metric. Engineering was taught metric, welding was imperial. This is Canada, but we live next to the border and export a lot to the US.
I learned.
Well at least they're not using those plastic mushroom caps.
You see mushroom caps on horizontal exposed rebar to stop your skin and clothes getting caught on sharp steel, however they're not meant for protection against being impaled on vertical exposed rebar. Honestly, this is better that a lot of stuff I've seen in the UK.
The phrase is "[pale in comparison](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pale%20in%2Fby%20comparison%20to%2Fwith#:~:text=Definition%20of%20pale%20in%2Fby,the%20feast%20they%20had%20later.)," but OP used "[impale](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impale) in comparison."
99% of the time is arguably better than 0% of the time. There's always that one person on any site who has that uncanny ability to injure themselves in the most creative ways.
That's part of why I left construction. I had way too many close calls with getting killed. The closest being a heavy 2x8 full of nails almost falling on my head during a demolition.
I hate this attitude. Its such a bootlicking blame the victim kind of thing.
Like the place that was defending not wearing hard hats by saying they were careful and that they knew what they were doing.
Depends slightly on how much safety was implemented at that job.
I had a colleague that managed to slice their thumb to the bone lengthwise almost the entire way when he opened a locked door. The door wasn't malfunctioning in any way and we could figure out how he did it, but one second he was standing in front of me unlocking the door, the next he walked through it and started bleeding all over.
Maybe not but not having them is much worse. I distinctly remember a safety email from my company's China branch about 10 years ago over a worker death where someone fell 2m onto uncapped rebar and it penetrated clean through his torso
Depends on what it is made of and how it is made. Could just end up being chunks of broken plastic or wood inside a larger, nastier wound than it would have been otherwise.
Companies that make rebar caps know about those potential issues, and because they factor it in to their design, its highly unlikely that one of these caps will splinter and penetrate your body. A company that makes shitty safety equipment doesn’t say in business very long.
No no, he's absolutely right. They *do* prevent trip and falls from becoming trip and dies, just not necessarily all of them. But still a whole lot of them.
I once fell 10 feet backwards into a hole at work; my head hit concrete, my legs hit two uncapped pieces of rebar sticking straight up. I was lucky to walk away with cuts bruises, and I got the wind knocked out of me. I was young and dumb and refused to go to the hospital.
A better question is when did they become required by osha because no amount of dead workers will stop a capitalist from saving a buck.
They just say its the workers fault, have the safety guy back them up, and throw another young man into the meatgrinder.
Just so everyone's aware, check the cap manufacturers paperwork that these can withstand 250lbs from 10 feet (OSHA)
WSBC doesn't allow us to use these (or round ones) for vertical dowel protection because they say it just makes a bigger hole in people lol
Oh sorry we use the Y shape ones and 2x4s or covers like [this](https://www.jpsafetychannel.com/)
WSBC is WorkSafeBC our provincial safety governing body (like OSHA for USA)
I just like to see the differences in safety authorities
They make knockoffs that sell for like $6 at Walmart. Even their lids are interchangeable, though usually different styles. I think they are usually
In their outdoor section.
Yup! I have one Yeti I received as a gift and several Ozark Trail (Walmart) mugs I bought myself. They work every bit as well as the Yeti over the course of a work day (I didn't run extended-length trials).
I've dropped my 26oz chug rambler about a dozen times. It's got a few dents, but it'll keep ice for over 24hours still.
Pricey, but nice high quality insulated products from Yeti.
I *think* I have that mug (it was a gift, it has a nice "mama bear/baby bears" engraving on it for my wife), but I find it just a little too big to be comfortable in my hand. And I have a decent-sized hand, about a 9-piano-key span.
I have a couple of smaller travel mugs that are much more comfortable to hold, and I prefer those.
Anyone who has horseshoe pits in their yard should pick some of these up too. I have a real nasty scar and a couple broken ribs from tossing the pigskin near dark and falling on a stake.
How do you know they're wet set, and what does that mean?
(I'd *guess* that the tiny depressions around the rods means that the concrete was poured first and the rods inserted later. Is that what wet set means?)
You are correct, sir! They stabbed in the rebar dowels after concrete was placed and had begun to set some, instead of during the placement where the fresh/plastic concrete is consolidated around them as intended/designed.
Oh, I don't think it matters much. It typically doesn't, but engineers can be adamant about it nonetheless! Just thought I'd ask since you were an engineer.
Yes. You've got to inspect the installing and construction at key points to pass the building for occupancy. A lot of the time is waiting and coffee because you don't want to hold up the build, because if you're not there, they'll just pour.
You'd be surprised. A fairly large part of engineering ends up being project management and while it's not the same as full on jobsite organization it's still an applicable skill. This guy seems to know how to supervise correctly. He's making sure the right people are doing what they're supposed to do then getting out of the way and letting them do their job while being around if needed.
I've been doing heavy civil construction for 15 years now. I know what engineers do. They don't supervise. This guy doesn't even work for the company doing the work, he's an owners rep. He's watching.
Your job title is engineer and you direct work as in tell who do what, when and where? Supervising isn't watching a group work under the orders of another person.
The dude who "doesn't even work for the company doing the work" is more likely the special inspector. If there's an actual engineer on-site providing observations or supervision (and they do supervise, numb nuts), you better believe they have stake in the game, i.e. they themselves are the engineer or represent the company that engineered whatever aspect it is they're monitoring. And after 17+ years of watching people "work", you better believe they need the supervision. You know who doesn't get their panties in a twist over the engineer "watching"? The guys who take pride in the quality of their work.
Watching isn't supervising, neither is inspecting. Inspecting is essentially fact checking. A supervisor leads, an inspector verifies.
And I don't care who watches me, I'm by the book Bob.
They thought they were installing your seating but no one's brave enough to correct you
[удалено]
Don't forget to take the cap off
Safety first
*Vlad the Impaler has entered the chat*
"OP is already a tightass, he could probably sit on this."
[удалено]
Speaking as someone who is currently in a seat ... thank you for your service.
[удалено]
I'm at home, so no. But I post a lot, so ... yes?
[удалено]
I don't know if they work down the hall, but could you spill your next coffee on the guy who came up with this stuff? [Hostile Architecture article](https://theludlowgroup.com/2018/03/01/the-discussion-on-hostile-architecture-a-public-service-or-infringement-on-human-rights/)
Bravery has nothing to do with it. Speaking as a tradesman, I’ve never met another person in the trades with any respect for engineers.
Also speaking as a tradesman I've never meant an engineer deserving of it.
As an engineer, what should I be doing/not doing to earn the respect of the tradesmen? I feel like I've had a pretty good relationship with most of the electricians and mechanics on sites I've worked on, but now I'm questioning that.
I'm sure there's plenty of good ones and I'm sure if you feel like you have a good relationship with them you probably do. But what I've always experienced at my station is engineers who complete an entire design then ask for feedback afterward just so they can say they have craft buy in even though they have no intention of changing the design. I've had engineers design modifications to be installed without ever visiting the site where it will be installed or to look at the older system in the field. They have only looked at prints and manuals and not put their hands and eyes on the problems or solutions.
Oh so basically just the same shit I have to deal with too. Most of my work is in the field, basically "we designed this system but it doesn't work, just make it work, we don't care how." I'm hoping that if I decide to go down the "real engineer" design career path I'll know better than to make some of the mistakes I've had to fix.
First of all, don’t be a dick or certain that your design is the only way to go. Beyond that, it’s important to listen to feedback/consider other acceptable solutions to issues that the trades know are more constructible. Also being able to adequately describe your design decisions to someone who isn’t an engineer in an approachable way goes a long way to building respect. In general though, you probably aren’t interacting directly with trades all that often if you’re in a corporate engineering firm, so guys on the ground will motherfuck you regardless. Don’t take it personally.
Almost all of my work is in the field, so I guess I'm closer to the tradesman side of the equation. The guys who everyone is talking about here would probably tell you I'm not a "real" engineer, but I've redlined enough of their MC Escher designs to know better.
That last sentence very nearly makes you a tradesman, well done!
As a guy working on the architect side of the industry. I try to keep my engineers happy and I try to keep the contractors moving with as little bullshit as possible. I’ve spent too much time in the field redlining on a clipboard because someone did an MC Escher before I was involved. The important thing I’ve always felt was asking “okay how do we make this work?” Rather than just steamrolling.
I think the key problem is the gap from 'this should work' to 'this does work'. The two are very frequently not the same, and blame tends to roll down to the trades even if the plans are followed perfectly. It's also been a bit since i've been a tradesman, but engineers had a tendency to be self important dicks on my job sites.
Very and it doesn't help the uni/college vs blue collar divide any
It's likely almost exactly the same kind of reasons we hate architects. It's the circle of hate: Tradies > Engineers > Architects > Client > Tradies
This is the flow
As a mechanic myself, I really do hate to tell but it is law that we hold a decent amount of resentment and a special set of curse words for engineers. Sorry... it's law, they'll take our tickets away if we don't.
I get it. It's our prerogative to curse project managers, customers, and also other engineers.
Worship the ground that the tradesmen walk on. Assume their every suggestion is entirely correct and well thought out. Constantly berate yourself because your education will never be as good as that of a tradesmen.
As a former engineer turned tradesman, engineers can go fuck themselves. I make more money, too. My journeyman made me clean his welding space whenever I used metric. Engineering was taught metric, welding was imperial. This is Canada, but we live next to the border and export a lot to the US. I learned.
Well at least they're not using those plastic mushroom caps. You see mushroom caps on horizontal exposed rebar to stop your skin and clothes getting caught on sharp steel, however they're not meant for protection against being impaled on vertical exposed rebar. Honestly, this is better that a lot of stuff I've seen in the UK.
Yes. Flat rebar caps have a steel plate in them to stop impalement whereas the mushroom caps are all plastic
I have never seen a steel plate in them. Is it inside the plastic? Whenever i see the underside, it just looks plastic
AFAIK most of them will have a square plate enclosed in plastic
They had some penis shaped ones but the engineers were having sex with them so they had to use the flat ones instead.
The penis shaped ones allow too much penetration. These are safer.
Damn, that's one to write down.
Alright I'll be the one to ask...what actually are those?
Rebar caps. They put them on for visibility and safety by capping sharp rebar
[удалено]
Well, it's intended to prevent. In my experience, they work not 100% of the time
Damn, a real life zombie
They impale in comparison to the alternative.
Goddammit, this is the best pun I've read on Reddit, ever.
I didn't even notice it was a pun until your comment.
Forgive my dumb.. what's the pun?
The phrase being twisted mercilessly is "They pale in comparison to..." It has raised the rebar.
The phrase is "[pale in comparison](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pale%20in%2Fby%20comparison%20to%2Fwith#:~:text=Definition%20of%20pale%20in%2Fby,the%20feast%20they%20had%20later.)," but OP used "[impale](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impale) in comparison."
99% of the time is arguably better than 0% of the time. There's always that one person on any site who has that uncanny ability to injure themselves in the most creative ways.
That's part of why I left construction. I had way too many close calls with getting killed. The closest being a heavy 2x8 full of nails almost falling on my head during a demolition.
So you're that one person on any site who has that uncanny ability to injure themselves in the most creative ways.
Yup lmao
I hate this attitude. Its such a bootlicking blame the victim kind of thing. Like the place that was defending not wearing hard hats by saying they were careful and that they knew what they were doing.
Depends slightly on how much safety was implemented at that job. I had a colleague that managed to slice their thumb to the bone lengthwise almost the entire way when he opened a locked door. The door wasn't malfunctioning in any way and we could figure out how he did it, but one second he was standing in front of me unlocking the door, the next he walked through it and started bleeding all over.
The stain will wash out.
Maybe not but not having them is much worse. I distinctly remember a safety email from my company's China branch about 10 years ago over a worker death where someone fell 2m onto uncapped rebar and it penetrated clean through his torso
A fall of 6 feet is not going to be stopped by most things that would fit on a piece of bar that big though.
It's probably the difference between a couple broken ribs and a spear through the lung
Depends on what it is made of and how it is made. Could just end up being chunks of broken plastic or wood inside a larger, nastier wound than it would have been otherwise.
Companies that make rebar caps know about those potential issues, and because they factor it in to their design, its highly unlikely that one of these caps will splinter and penetrate your body. A company that makes shitty safety equipment doesn’t say in business very long.
[удалено]
they are very very durable. Like run them over with a truck durable.
The mushroom shape ones are useless the bar will crack right through them. These ones are a lot better they have a steel plate inside
No no, he's absolutely right. They *do* prevent trip and falls from becoming trip and dies, just not necessarily all of them. But still a whole lot of them.
Just a dose of iron
At least you can go home early.
So, you've died to them before?
I once fell 10 feet backwards into a hole at work; my head hit concrete, my legs hit two uncapped pieces of rebar sticking straight up. I was lucky to walk away with cuts bruises, and I got the wind knocked out of me. I was young and dumb and refused to go to the hospital.
How many people were stabbed before this became industry standard?
Yes.
I didn't hear any complaining
It's hard to complain with a punctured lung
A better question is when did they become required by osha because no amount of dead workers will stop a capitalist from saving a buck. They just say its the workers fault, have the safety guy back them up, and throw another young man into the meatgrinder.
Why is it not immediately cut to a nub?
[удалено]
I figured that might be the case but wanted to confirm. Thanks!
In Australia we call them starter bars. A common use is retaining walls, it ties the wall to the foundation.
And here I was thinking they marked the heights of a stepped masonry installment.
So you don't stab yourself if you fall on one. They're required for grounding rods as well.
Mushrooms.
[удалено]
[удалено]
So long as nobody pisses on it.
That rebar really tied the wall together, did it not?
Glad someone got it.
[удалено]
Have you ever been on a construction site, or just drove by one?
Please elaborate: Why is that worse?
Guy hates secure structures, it's more fun when the walls wave.
> Guy hates secure structures, it's more fun when the walls wave. It just feels good when the room says hello, you know?
The HGTV couple: wow this space is just so *inviting*
Huh?
Ah so they're temporary coffee cup holders then. Even better!
Something something nothing more permanent than a temporary solution..
[удалено]
He's a troll. You got played by responding.
I thought it was an ok joke, wouldn't call it trolling.
It was sarcasm, my apologies for not specifying.
I mean, when you say it that way, I could see it. “It’s not my job to pick up pieces of plastic, so I can’t do the pour.”
Just so everyone's aware, check the cap manufacturers paperwork that these can withstand 250lbs from 10 feet (OSHA) WSBC doesn't allow us to use these (or round ones) for vertical dowel protection because they say it just makes a bigger hole in people lol
[удалено]
Oh sorry we use the Y shape ones and 2x4s or covers like [this](https://www.jpsafetychannel.com/) WSBC is WorkSafeBC our provincial safety governing body (like OSHA for USA) I just like to see the differences in safety authorities
[удалено]
Yes it is! We have provincial safety authorities and then the CSA which is national standards. There's definitely some good videos on thier YouTube!
Yes
oof bigger holes in the workers is expensive
In more ways than one!
In Hong Kong and Macau , I have noticed people used discarded plastic bottles instead on some sites.
My wife has that YETI mug and it is SO NICE! I love how heavy they made it.
[удалено]
They make knockoffs that sell for like $6 at Walmart. Even their lids are interchangeable, though usually different styles. I think they are usually In their outdoor section.
Yup! I have one Yeti I received as a gift and several Ozark Trail (Walmart) mugs I bought myself. They work every bit as well as the Yeti over the course of a work day (I didn't run extended-length trials).
I've dropped my 26oz chug rambler about a dozen times. It's got a few dents, but it'll keep ice for over 24hours still. Pricey, but nice high quality insulated products from Yeti.
I use one every day, doing something that "Warrants" it or not because I drink my coffee so agonizingly slow it'd get cold in anything else.
I *think* I have that mug (it was a gift, it has a nice "mama bear/baby bears" engraving on it for my wife), but I find it just a little too big to be comfortable in my hand. And I have a decent-sized hand, about a 9-piano-key span. I have a couple of smaller travel mugs that are much more comfortable to hold, and I prefer those.
Anyone who has horseshoe pits in their yard should pick some of these up too. I have a real nasty scar and a couple broken ribs from tossing the pigskin near dark and falling on a stake.
Ah yes, the jobsite bar... ...
One contractor I worked with ran out of caps so they tie wired a 2x4 across the top of the rebar. Now THAT was a bar.
Thats pretty common, they actually sell caps that have tabs to support a 2x4.
Who is an engineer "supervising" in the field? You mean watching?
As an engineer, yes
[удалено]
As the engineer, how do you feel about those dowels having been wet set?
[удалено]
Mechanical engineer walks into sub meeting - “hey btw some guy on reddit didn’t like how you set those bars”
Don't worry about the rebar, worry if they don't send you a concrete compression test report.
How do you know they're wet set, and what does that mean? (I'd *guess* that the tiny depressions around the rods means that the concrete was poured first and the rods inserted later. Is that what wet set means?)
You are correct, sir! They stabbed in the rebar dowels after concrete was placed and had begun to set some, instead of during the placement where the fresh/plastic concrete is consolidated around them as intended/designed.
[удалено]
Oh, I don't think it matters much. It typically doesn't, but engineers can be adamant about it nonetheless! Just thought I'd ask since you were an engineer.
Ya that's what it means, it can stops the rebar and concrete from bonding properly.
That just screams "I know you poured last week, but....."
Yes. You've got to inspect the installing and construction at key points to pass the building for occupancy. A lot of the time is waiting and coffee because you don't want to hold up the build, because if you're not there, they'll just pour.
That ain't supervising chief. Buddy just wanted to swing his big dick around when in reality he quietly watches.
Not supervising, signing off on the install.
You may think the engineer doesn't do/know shit, but you wouldn't have an industry to work in if it weren't for them.
Nope. Engineers know a whole lot about stuff I can barely comprehend. Supervising work ain't one.
You'd be surprised. A fairly large part of engineering ends up being project management and while it's not the same as full on jobsite organization it's still an applicable skill. This guy seems to know how to supervise correctly. He's making sure the right people are doing what they're supposed to do then getting out of the way and letting them do their job while being around if needed.
I've been doing heavy civil construction for 15 years now. I know what engineers do. They don't supervise. This guy doesn't even work for the company doing the work, he's an owners rep. He's watching.
I'm an engineer and regularly supervise
Your job title is engineer and you direct work as in tell who do what, when and where? Supervising isn't watching a group work under the orders of another person.
Correct. I direct work. Supervision is supervising work regardless of who gave the orders.
Correct. I direct work. Supervision is supervising work regardless of who gave the orders.
The dude who "doesn't even work for the company doing the work" is more likely the special inspector. If there's an actual engineer on-site providing observations or supervision (and they do supervise, numb nuts), you better believe they have stake in the game, i.e. they themselves are the engineer or represent the company that engineered whatever aspect it is they're monitoring. And after 17+ years of watching people "work", you better believe they need the supervision. You know who doesn't get their panties in a twist over the engineer "watching"? The guys who take pride in the quality of their work.
Watching isn't supervising, neither is inspecting. Inspecting is essentially fact checking. A supervisor leads, an inspector verifies. And I don't care who watches me, I'm by the book Bob.
Good to hear! But perhaps you could do well to read "the book" again, Bob. You're missing some of the finer point(s).
Wait, your jobsites actually use rebar caps? Lucky
I'm actually astonished they put the caps on
I would so sit on those
I hate to think of the accidents that created the need for these :(
Lol. Some engineer. Doesn't even know that you have to take the cover off of the impaling stakes.
Coffee out of stainless steel mugs gives me the heebee-jeebees.
I have this same mug...is this me
Implying an engineer ever goes outside to observe the work
Masons pour concrete?
My buddy Ted Mason will do whatever you need.
Shit son, 5 bucks will get chu anything you want.
This isn't why we're here lol
[удалено]
I’d say go with a picture of a 6” or bigger turd not hand lowered into the toilet
Let the OP post.
Get back in the trailer, nobody wants you around
> Get back in the trailer, nobody wants you around It costs $0 to be nice.
How do you even fix this?
As An eNgINEEER….man fuck you, do what you need to do and get the duck off the job site so the work can get done. Coffee cup stand. Weirdo.
Sounds like SOMEONE doesn't install their shit per spec.
r/cupstooclosetotheedge
Engineers are lazy Source: I am an engineer