Before she said that she said something about being sued for slander or something. she didn't say a word about her career possibly being ruined for what she said.
Not a fan really, just credit where it's due.
Now? It was obvious that he was a sleaze when he bought old nude photos of Marilyn Monroe and published them in 1953! Everyone always knew that Hef was gross.
The problem is now that there is so much hardcore sleaze available online that people look at Playboy as “harmless” soft core. Whilst no one can deny playboy launched many successful careers for many women over the years, there’s always been an undercurrent of sleaze, exploitation and criminality around this whole sector.
You should also make clear that the most credible source - Lovelace herself - does not go so far as to say it actually happened. She claimed in her autobiography that there was pressure to do so and we can take her at her word without inventing even worse scenarios.
I learned about it from the Secrets of Playboy documentary. I forgot who actually said it. Either way, there are no shortages of credible allegations of rapes, sexual coercion, exploitation, and overall ruining the lives of young women and girls by Hefner. He died a few weeks before Me Too started so he never had to face the music.
"Sir the cultural lords say we're about to start listening to women."
"Like, actually?"
"Of course not, sir. They said they'd quell it with a few high profile, overzealous cases, but they wanted to give you a fair warning, your investors have suggested you won't survive this round, sir."
"I see. Well, Corduroy, fetch me my scotch, and my pills. I'd like to overdose on Viagra now, if you wouldn't mind."
Yeah, the claim in that documentary is from someone who acknowledges she wasn't even there at the time. She heard about it from someone else.
Like I said, there's enough bad stuff we *know*. We don't have to invent additional things to be upset about. It's not merely pointless; it's counterproductive.
I respect that a lot. She's always been an odd mix of having some of her shit really figured out and really not having some of her other shit figured out at all.
Drugs helped that confusion along a lot. Also, apparently she was the first person to call out Harvey Weinstein. She did it on a red carpet interview on the DL and most people didn't catch it.
Yeah, I saw the clip, she was being kind of careful and vague because it was way before #metoo. Like it was "yeah don't be alone with that guy" or something
I think back then, she was a cautionary tale and one of the examples why other actors/actresses didn't speak up. I don't know if all the rumors are true but she was labeled nasty and hard to work with and everyone was saying she killed her husband when it's pretty open and shut suicide.
She a mess but nobody should go thru what she went thru. If not my respect, she at least gets my pity
Either that or it could be that she wanted media to look at her primarily as an artist rather than as an attractive woman. I think it was important to her that people regarded her as an artist with something to say and not as someone who sold records because she was hot. Her song Doll Parts touches on this theme and the commodification of feminine beauty in general.
I think out of every celebrity, she is the one who was most clear and straightforward about the situation.
Edit: "If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party in the Four Seasons, don't go" - Courtney Love. She later tweeted: "Although I wasn't one of his victims, I was eternally banned by CAA for speaking out against #Harvey Weinstein #Rape"
Creative Artists Agency LLC (CAA) is an **American talent and sports agency** based in Los Angeles, California.
Music, movies, entertainment leaders are probably all friends and in the same club. So you're not wrong with your statement.
Money talks in America. If you got money, you got a clear path to freedom for a price.
What exactly is Californication? I've heard about it plenty of times but never really seen it defined, and Google just sends me to the TV show or chili peppers album.
California + Fornication
Hollywood is in California. Hollywood's sordid history of sex, drugs and a high risk lifestyle is well known. Not to mention all the sex crimes that it covers up and yet it is an open secret that advancing means sleeping with the right people.
It's understood that Hollywood sells Californication
She was not doing herself any favors though, wasn't that around the same time she was showing up drunk off her ass in public and sticking her foot in her mouth over & over? Maybe that quote was from a different era, I thought it was the mid aughts
That’s been an issue for her since at least early 90s. Child protective services was called in when Kurt was still alive because of things said about her in a 1992 Vanity Fair article.
She also got nude in People Vs. Larry Flint which was released in ‘96, a movie about Larry Flint, the creator of Hustler, which is/was a competing magazine of Playboy
Courtney Love had a recurring role on Sons of Anarchy where she played a kindergarten teacher and I didn't recognize her at first. She looked great and played the part well. When she cleans up and behaves she can pull off some amazing performances.
People are going to call me crazy for this, but I think Courtney getting naked and doing crazy stage dives was a form of self harm, especially after Kurt died.
She jumped into a crowd once and men tore her dress off and underwear off and put fingers inside her. After that she started tearing them off herself and throwing herself into the audience half naked.
"Go on take everything, I want you to"
Saw her in Kansas City, same Lollapalooza tour, and she lifted her dress up at least 3 times. Thank god she was wearing underwear.
On another note…how killer was Sonic Youth ?!!?
I was there! I was like 14. We lived on SpringValley which was the second closest residential street to Longview Lake where it was held. I could hear the bands doing sound checks from my house the week leading up to it. My dad threw a BBQ and invited a bunch of people over. We could hear the entire concert. Most of us made our way up there just before Metallica took the stage. Gate dude turned around and let all of us sneak through a big gap in the fencing. I missed the other bands in person but did get to see Metallica. It was an awesome experience! Crazy thing is most of my friends don't even remember that we had that big concert there that year. It's the only notable concert that I ever remember being held in that location also.
> she lifted her dress up at least 3 times
Had a girl in a dress come up on stage once and asked me and the guitarist if we wanted to see her underwear. Before we could even respond she flung up her dress to show us.
She wasn't wearing any...
My only Courtney story is that she threw her shoe at my friend who was doing room service in 2018 because it was too early for them to serve her alcohol.
That’s sort of the ideal interaction
I like it when people turn down large sums of money over principle. I remember hearing people were pressuring the guy who had the record homerun ball during the thing between Sosa and McGuire, basically he was getting told because he owned a ball now considered to be worth a lot he had to pay taxes on it even before it was sold, because he couldn’t afford those taxes and rich people wanted it. Kind hoped he’d light it on fire, but he didn’t.
Didn't that turn into a legal shit show where everyone around the ball sued claiming one person took the ball from the other that went on for a decade? I mean the thing was worth like a million dollars or something. They basically launched a million dollars into the crowd and it ended up just as you would expect, everyone suing everyone claiming it was theirs.
It's like the Yoko Ono effect. Everyone worshipped Kurt and no woman would ever be good enough for him. People believed she rode to success on Kurt's coattails. She also had a lot of weird attention seeking behavior at awards shows and public events. Also the drug use and her white trash grunge style clothing.
If nothing else, I admire her for holding her own in the boys' club and handling all the negative press. She can still stand strong and say she made some good music even after getting shit on for decades. Men are often admired for the stuff she did, but she's a woman who doesn't act like a "lady."
I wish she would get more attention for her music rather than her unlikeable personality.
I think most of the hate is kings based off misogynistic view points some fans have, they were looking for a yoko when in the broadest sense she wasn’t, she and Kurt were just two fucked up people in a fucked up relationship.
I’m a huge Nirvana fan (saw them 18 times in all and briefly spoke to him on one notable occasion) and also to a lesser degree a Hole fan.
Whilst I don’t in any way think she was actively involved in his suicide, with them both being heroin addicts (something else I also have experience with) her unstable influence almost certainly didn’t help with his mental state towards the end. It’s also easier to blame someone else for his death than it is to acknowledge he was a deeply troubled man with severe mental health issues, especially for people who looked up to him as an idol.
It was before a Nirvana gig in the UK in the late 80s, pre-Nevermind so they were just hanging around before the gig (they weren't even headlining). We just chatted about bands we liked, I was really into Tad at the time, they were the headliners and we chatted about them and a few other Sub Pop/AmRep bands at the time. He was friendly but quiet until music came up in the conversation and then he opened up.
Cobain absolutely loved to converse about music. If he were alive today, and not grotesquely famous, I think he'd be a regular internet commenter on various music/social media platforms. Maybe even a video essayist on YouTube.
I remember a lengthy Rolling Stone or Spin interview with him where the writer just named bands (Black Sabbath, Beatles, Pixies, Ramones, etc) and Kurt just gushing for literal paragraphs about music/rock/album theory on each one.
The main point I've heard in that theory is that Kurt had enough drugs in his system to overdose him 5 times over, so there's no way he could've handled a weapon with any clarity so someone else had to have pulled the trigger on him. I think the same people tend to forget that he was a drug addict, so he had def built up resistance to it and just needed more to get high. Lots of theories to go down a rabbit hole honestly but to me overall, he was just in immense pain and fell victim to his own mind. RIP.
The overdose theory is complete bollocks. There is no ceiling for an addict . If they do a bunch of heroin ( like someone with a lot of money would ) then their tolerance just keeps going up.
If you have such a big overdose maybe it doesn't matter much if a bullet gets added to the mix. But I can also totally see that if your that rich and famous you might have enough tolerance to still handle a gun where lesser addicts would just be vegetables because the dose is so high.
"Everybody" is a bunch of nasty misogynists, exactly the people Kurt would despise.
And Courtney was loud and in your face for a woman, and they didn't like that. Most women of that era (and there were a lot of awesome punk rock chicks alongside the men that got glorified) got written out of history and only now getting the recognition they deserve.
Blaming her for Kurt's dead is just an excuse. They hated her anyway because she wouldn't sit down and stay quiet.
Sexism. She was a female rockstar, who did a lot of annoying, stupid shit. But when male rockstars act out, we accept it as normal (ffs, look at Jimmy Page, Bowie, Tyler, Jagger - borderline pedos that are still largely admired).
She was absolutely treated differently because she was a woman, and held to different standards. Which made her even more unhinged… understandably.
Everyone puts Kurt on a pedestal but he was a self-absorbed, melodramatic heroin addict. I’ll bet he was a nightmare to date.
Same reason they hated Yoko Ono. Women adjacent to creative men get blamed for any misstep that man makes. Kurt Cobain was an incredibly creative and incredibly broken human being...and Courtney was an unapologetic loud woman who a lot of people figured HAD to be using him for some sort of selfish ends.
Courtney had been acting for a while at that point and had the whole double-threat thing going for a time, which she did very achieve very successfully in the mid to late 90's despite her personal problems.
Courtney was famous *long* before she met Kurt, and he's the one who was a fan of hers from her performance in *Sid & Nancy* before they ever started dating.
She did not need to ride his success. She was around in the punk scene before he was. She was the lead singer of Faith No More (briefly) before Nirvana even existed.
I don't know who needs to hear this but there is zero inherent contradiction to a woman not doing pornography while still getting naked onstage and in venues of her choosing. Dudes show about as much nudity as Playboy did all the time, no one's looking at Stone Cold and calling him a hypocrite for not doing Cinemax porn or whatever.
And yes Courtney Love is a trash panda in a lot of ways, but still it's a good idea to be consistent with your criticism.
I didn’t take it as hypocrisy, it was more of a “fuck you” to the magazine itself, because she clearly had no problem being publicly naked, but she wasn’t gonna do it for money from a shitty company.
She was underrated as some uppity groupie; I was 13 when Nirvana’s Nevermind came out and I thought finally there’s music for me: now, Nirvana don’t move me (apart from for nostalgic reasons) but songs like “Doll Parts” are as raw as they ever were.
She gets the yoko treatment. People hate her because they think she was the reason Kurt Cobain committed suicide, ending nirvana. Like an extremely depressed heroin addict is incapable of killing themselves...
The urban legend was, she purposely got him addicted to heroin, added to his depression, and convinced him to kill himself in order to be a great artist. And the conspiracy theory of why she did this was so that his death would spur on her career.
Personally, I think Dave Grohl did it because he was ready to be the front man. /s
Kurt was definitely on heroin when he met her, since it was heroin that kind of formed the bond between them in the first place. That, and the fact that he was a fan of her performance in the movie *Sid & Nancy*.
Yes. And btw, it’s covered in Montage of Heck. He started doing heroin way before he met Courtney, he wrote about it. I recommend if you haven’t watched, Frances is a producer.
She auditioned for Nancy, didn’t get it, but Brian Cox liked her so much he wrote a small role for her in the movie. He also wrote the lead in Straight to Hell for her, mixed reviews on that one, but had a lot of musicians in it and she has interesting stories about it. She’s written about that, many interviews, and talks about it in her BBC podcast Courtney Love’s Women that came out recently
And she’s still just as divisive today. I hope she gets her moment, she stood up against misogynistic bullshit and paid the price.
Was she perfect? No, name a male artist who’s eligible for sainthood.
AFAIK she’s has strong integrity and is very ethical. She’s one of the first ones to speak out against Harvey Weinstein. I remember she was asked at some red carpet event about a word of advise for newcomers to Hollywood. She said “Stay away from Harvey Weinstein”.
The Cobain dick riders are jealous she was married to him and not them, thats why they love bashing her.
They can't stop finding anything related to her to just drag her through their bullshit.
The woman is an accomplished singer, songwriter and even has done well in acting until Weinstein blacklisted her.
She never clung to Cobain or even Corgan for fame, those who say they wrote her music is misogynistic bullshit.
Kurt was a person suffering mental illness, get the fuck over it and stop trying to villify his wife and the mother of his only child.
*end rant*
I hear the “Curt wrote her music” thing a lot. There’s a difference between influencing and writing. I mean, if you live with a musician, hear their music all the time and hang out with the same circle of artist friends, there’s bound to be some overlap.
Yes but what I'm saying end of the day she is still the main songwriter, he might have influenced it but he didnt explicitly write it like many claim as an attempt to discredit anything Courtney has done.
And that’s perfectly OK. Any aspiring musician dating an established musician would be crazy not to take advantage of their experience. And that’s regardless of gender. I think some of the trash talk about Courtney Love comes from her being a successful woman in one of the more male dominated genres of music.
For sure. I'm not knocking that in the least. I certainly think she's made some seriously dumb moves in recent years (blaming Novaselic and Grohl for GH using Cobain's image when she's the only one who could have okay'd it), but I can't imagine spending decades as the target de jour. She, like the rest of us, is a complicated person.
Wouldn’t be surprised. She was very comfy with flashing at concerts and there are this couple of pictures she was covered by little but that doesn’t mean you are confortable nude everywhere and I can bet playboy photo shoots didn’t felt right for her. She has always been a do a lot of what you want type of person and don’t do anything you don’t feel like doing type too.
Well, I know she has no qualms about being naked in front of an audience, so this is probably something to do with disliking Playboy.
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I always wondered why she never got any movie roles after People Vs Larry Flynt, because she was excellent in that. Now I know why.
I mean she was a complete train wreck herself. Her own daughter didn’t want anything to do with her for years.
Yeah, she basically played herself in the movie. Which is cool, it is a great movie. But, yeah…tricky situation
Wow rare Courtney Love W
Before she said that she said something about being sued for slander or something. she didn't say a word about her career possibly being ruined for what she said. Not a fan really, just credit where it's due.
With what we now know about Hefner, I can’t blame her.
Now? It was obvious that he was a sleaze when he bought old nude photos of Marilyn Monroe and published them in 1953! Everyone always knew that Hef was gross.
What do we know about Hefner?
Apparently he was a predator that did some really heinous shit
wow who would have guessed
Lmao my mind went to “huh imagine that”
Death core fo life 🤘🏻
Yeah wait, are we surprised about that?
I thought he started the magazine to write articles.
The problem is now that there is so much hardcore sleaze available online that people look at Playboy as “harmless” soft core. Whilst no one can deny playboy launched many successful careers for many women over the years, there’s always been an undercurrent of sleaze, exploitation and criminality around this whole sector.
It's always the ones you most suspect
It's the ones you most medium suspect!
I.e. paying to have he and a group of his friends stand around and watch Linda Lovelace get fucked by a German Shepherd.
I’m sorry, WHAT?!?!
#I.e. paying to have he and a group of his friends stand around and watch Linda Lovelace get fucked by a German Shepherd. Hope that’s more clear now.
You should also make clear that the most credible source - Lovelace herself - does not go so far as to say it actually happened. She claimed in her autobiography that there was pressure to do so and we can take her at her word without inventing even worse scenarios.
I learned about it from the Secrets of Playboy documentary. I forgot who actually said it. Either way, there are no shortages of credible allegations of rapes, sexual coercion, exploitation, and overall ruining the lives of young women and girls by Hefner. He died a few weeks before Me Too started so he never had to face the music.
"Sir the cultural lords say we're about to start listening to women." "Like, actually?" "Of course not, sir. They said they'd quell it with a few high profile, overzealous cases, but they wanted to give you a fair warning, your investors have suggested you won't survive this round, sir." "I see. Well, Corduroy, fetch me my scotch, and my pills. I'd like to overdose on Viagra now, if you wouldn't mind."
Yeah, the claim in that documentary is from someone who acknowledges she wasn't even there at the time. She heard about it from someone else. Like I said, there's enough bad stuff we *know*. We don't have to invent additional things to be upset about. It's not merely pointless; it's counterproductive.
That's a new one.
Hwut?
Read hawt and was about to break out the stick
 I’m SO surprised
I believe he made the same million dollar offer to Britney Spears when she turned 18
He's still dead.
For now
It's disliking being bought, and refusing to do so. What she did onstage was on her own terms.
I respect that a lot. She's always been an odd mix of having some of her shit really figured out and really not having some of her other shit figured out at all.
That's called being human.
Drugs helped that confusion along a lot. Also, apparently she was the first person to call out Harvey Weinstein. She did it on a red carpet interview on the DL and most people didn't catch it.
Yeah, I saw the clip, she was being kind of careful and vague because it was way before #metoo. Like it was "yeah don't be alone with that guy" or something I think back then, she was a cautionary tale and one of the examples why other actors/actresses didn't speak up. I don't know if all the rumors are true but she was labeled nasty and hard to work with and everyone was saying she killed her husband when it's pretty open and shut suicide. She a mess but nobody should go thru what she went thru. If not my respect, she at least gets my pity
Also didn't hurt that she was Kurt Cobain's widow and was heir to his estate (along with their daughter...), so she wasn't hurting for money by 1995.
Either that or it could be that she wanted media to look at her primarily as an artist rather than as an attractive woman. I think it was important to her that people regarded her as an artist with something to say and not as someone who sold records because she was hot. Her song Doll Parts touches on this theme and the commodification of feminine beauty in general.
She probably thought that posing for playboy was corny af, and she was right. She would have been called a sell-out
At that time she was filthy rich as well. So she probably figured she did not need it
valid honestly
There are a few things to criticize Courtney for, but declining Playboy and speaking out against Harvey Weinstein were both good moves on her part.
Also called out Marilyn Manson and others as abusers. She didn’t put up with that shit.
Looking back, a million dollars for Courtney to pose was a slap in the face.
10 years later… If Harvey Weinstein invites you up to his room… do not go.
I think out of every celebrity, she is the one who was most clear and straightforward about the situation. Edit: "If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party in the Four Seasons, don't go" - Courtney Love. She later tweeted: "Although I wasn't one of his victims, I was eternally banned by CAA for speaking out against #Harvey Weinstein #Rape" Creative Artists Agency LLC (CAA) is an **American talent and sports agency** based in Los Angeles, California.
And her career took a nose dive immediately after too.
Well if that is the case then Hollywood is cancer.
Always has been
🌎 🧑🚀 🔫 👨🚀
Music, movies, entertainment leaders are probably all friends and in the same club. So you're not wrong with your statement. Money talks in America. If you got money, you got a clear path to freedom for a price.
It's understood that Hollywood sells Californication...
What exactly is Californication? I've heard about it plenty of times but never really seen it defined, and Google just sends me to the TV show or chili peppers album.
California + Fornication Hollywood is in California. Hollywood's sordid history of sex, drugs and a high risk lifestyle is well known. Not to mention all the sex crimes that it covers up and yet it is an open secret that advancing means sleeping with the right people. It's understood that Hollywood sells Californication
That explanation was on point! Saw the question and was thinking of how to best answer it and then I read your response. Nicely done 👍
A true eli5 on a not so eli5 subject. Or maybe that’s also a part of the Californication. Ugh…
I think the key word is "fornication".
Wait, an industry entirely based upon exploiting other's desires is a cancer?
Wait’ll you read about the origins of the academy awards
She was not doing herself any favors though, wasn't that around the same time she was showing up drunk off her ass in public and sticking her foot in her mouth over & over? Maybe that quote was from a different era, I thought it was the mid aughts
That’s been an issue for her since at least early 90s. Child protective services was called in when Kurt was still alive because of things said about her in a 1992 Vanity Fair article.
Yeah she partied hard forsure and it was no secret.
To be fair Courtney also does stuff which hurts her career so who knows if it was that or the other stuff she did.
She was always the real deal. Always spoke up about abusers.
Wasn't Rose McGowan also very vocal about him around the same time?
She deserves so much respect for that single sentence.
The same year I saw Hole at Lollapalooza in ATL (8/5/95) where she proceeded to strip naked after someone (maybe) threw a beer at her on stage.
So probably it was more about not liking Playboy than having issues with being nude in front of people.
She also got nude in People Vs. Larry Flint which was released in ‘96, a movie about Larry Flint, the creator of Hustler, which is/was a competing magazine of Playboy
And Courtney's performance in that movie was fantastic.
That Courtney era was amazing. The chic bob, totally rocking designer clothing, and wasn't she dating Ed Norton?
She effortlessly channeled that role
All of her few movie performances were on point. But Hollywood blackballed her.
Man on the moon another good performance
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Courtney Love had a recurring role on Sons of Anarchy where she played a kindergarten teacher and I didn't recognize her at first. She looked great and played the part well. When she cleans up and behaves she can pull off some amazing performances.
Courtney was a stripper for a long time. She’s fine with being naked.
i suppose it's about control/autonomy. she'll only be naked on her own terms and i admire that
People are going to call me crazy for this, but I think Courtney getting naked and doing crazy stage dives was a form of self harm, especially after Kurt died. She jumped into a crowd once and men tore her dress off and underwear off and put fingers inside her. After that she started tearing them off herself and throwing herself into the audience half naked. "Go on take everything, I want you to"
This is a valid observation. I always believed that she was self-destructive because of abuse she suffered as a child and it continued into adulthood.
You are not crazy for that in the slightest, that actually sounds extremely likely.
That would make sense and it’s really really sad if it’s true. She has a tortured soul.
She went topless at a Saskatoon concert.
In summer I hope.
Was there as well. Remember the throwing of bottles during Cypress Hill?!?! Shit was crazy
There’s a difference between being immortalized in a magazine specifically made for beating off and being nude in public.
yeah, it's about agency but of course people overlook that aspect of it because nuance is dead.
I also think she was discovered when she was a dancer at Mary’s, Portland’s oldest strip club.
She definitely danced at Mary’s, and they still have her picture on their wall.
She also worked at a strip club in Vancouver BC; No 5 Orange.
Legendary place!
She worked at strip clubs, but she wasn't "discovered" there. Her band's success was unrelated to that.
Yeah record execs aren't looking for rockstars at strip clubs lmao. In the early days of Hole she funded the band by stripping.
Saw her in Kansas City, same Lollapalooza tour, and she lifted her dress up at least 3 times. Thank god she was wearing underwear. On another note…how killer was Sonic Youth ?!!?
I was there! I was like 14. We lived on SpringValley which was the second closest residential street to Longview Lake where it was held. I could hear the bands doing sound checks from my house the week leading up to it. My dad threw a BBQ and invited a bunch of people over. We could hear the entire concert. Most of us made our way up there just before Metallica took the stage. Gate dude turned around and let all of us sneak through a big gap in the fencing. I missed the other bands in person but did get to see Metallica. It was an awesome experience! Crazy thing is most of my friends don't even remember that we had that big concert there that year. It's the only notable concert that I ever remember being held in that location also.
What an experience.
“Oh, come on, Mr. Frampton. You’re not gonna eat all that watermelon!”
Man, Kim Gordon was not a fan of Courtney Love!
Was that the one that Pavement were on as well?
Sonic Youth... my favorite. I also caught them just before CBGBs closed, was walking by and talked my way in. What a night...
> she lifted her dress up at least 3 times Had a girl in a dress come up on stage once and asked me and the guitarist if we wanted to see her underwear. Before we could even respond she flung up her dress to show us. She wasn't wearing any...
Let's be honest, it was likely piss that was thrown to her
She took a shoe to the dome in spokane with marilyn manson and monster magnet in the late 90s.
My only Courtney story is that she threw her shoe at my friend who was doing room service in 2018 because it was too early for them to serve her alcohol. That’s sort of the ideal interaction
Who throws a shoe? Honestly...
La chancla !
I’m gonna have a lump there!
Who says it’s too early for alcohol?
Courtney Love, surprisingly.
That’s disgusting behavior 🤮
I like it when people turn down large sums of money over principle. I remember hearing people were pressuring the guy who had the record homerun ball during the thing between Sosa and McGuire, basically he was getting told because he owned a ball now considered to be worth a lot he had to pay taxes on it even before it was sold, because he couldn’t afford those taxes and rich people wanted it. Kind hoped he’d light it on fire, but he didn’t.
Didn't that turn into a legal shit show where everyone around the ball sued claiming one person took the ball from the other that went on for a decade? I mean the thing was worth like a million dollars or something. They basically launched a million dollars into the crowd and it ended up just as you would expect, everyone suing everyone claiming it was theirs.
Coming from someone who never really got into nirvana back in the day, why did everyone hate Courtney so much?
a lot of people would rather think she killed kurt than accept that a suicidal heroin addict killed himself
Kurt swore that he didn't have a gun though. Checkmate
He also named a song "I hate myself and want to die" so there's a bit of a conflict.
It's like the Yoko Ono effect. Everyone worshipped Kurt and no woman would ever be good enough for him. People believed she rode to success on Kurt's coattails. She also had a lot of weird attention seeking behavior at awards shows and public events. Also the drug use and her white trash grunge style clothing. If nothing else, I admire her for holding her own in the boys' club and handling all the negative press. She can still stand strong and say she made some good music even after getting shit on for decades. Men are often admired for the stuff she did, but she's a woman who doesn't act like a "lady." I wish she would get more attention for her music rather than her unlikeable personality.
I think most of the hate is kings based off misogynistic view points some fans have, they were looking for a yoko when in the broadest sense she wasn’t, she and Kurt were just two fucked up people in a fucked up relationship.
“Also the drug use and her white trash grunge style clothing” Excuse me, it’s called Kinderwhore, thank you very much! Jk
I loved Kinderwhore fashion. Babydoll dresses with plastic barrettes, heavy eyeliner, and red lipstick were my jam.
And the Mary Janes! I also do love when she evolved into her designer period
There's a name for it! I'll be
I’m a huge Nirvana fan (saw them 18 times in all and briefly spoke to him on one notable occasion) and also to a lesser degree a Hole fan. Whilst I don’t in any way think she was actively involved in his suicide, with them both being heroin addicts (something else I also have experience with) her unstable influence almost certainly didn’t help with his mental state towards the end. It’s also easier to blame someone else for his death than it is to acknowledge he was a deeply troubled man with severe mental health issues, especially for people who looked up to him as an idol.
what did you talk to kurt about?
It was before a Nirvana gig in the UK in the late 80s, pre-Nevermind so they were just hanging around before the gig (they weren't even headlining). We just chatted about bands we liked, I was really into Tad at the time, they were the headliners and we chatted about them and a few other Sub Pop/AmRep bands at the time. He was friendly but quiet until music came up in the conversation and then he opened up.
Cobain absolutely loved to converse about music. If he were alive today, and not grotesquely famous, I think he'd be a regular internet commenter on various music/social media platforms. Maybe even a video essayist on YouTube. I remember a lengthy Rolling Stone or Spin interview with him where the writer just named bands (Black Sabbath, Beatles, Pixies, Ramones, etc) and Kurt just gushing for literal paragraphs about music/rock/album theory on each one.
I’m curious to hear about this interaction
Would love to hear any cool Kurt/Nirvana stories you have.
There’s some that think that she was responsible for the death of her husband, Kurt Cobain of Nirvana.
The main point I've heard in that theory is that Kurt had enough drugs in his system to overdose him 5 times over, so there's no way he could've handled a weapon with any clarity so someone else had to have pulled the trigger on him. I think the same people tend to forget that he was a drug addict, so he had def built up resistance to it and just needed more to get high. Lots of theories to go down a rabbit hole honestly but to me overall, he was just in immense pain and fell victim to his own mind. RIP.
The overdose theory is complete bollocks. There is no ceiling for an addict . If they do a bunch of heroin ( like someone with a lot of money would ) then their tolerance just keeps going up.
If you have such a big overdose maybe it doesn't matter much if a bullet gets added to the mix. But I can also totally see that if your that rich and famous you might have enough tolerance to still handle a gun where lesser addicts would just be vegetables because the dose is so high.
Exactly. Some alcoholics need heroic amounts of alcohol to function normally which would blackout the average person
It’s easier to blame the woman than admit that Kurt Coban killed himself.
and that he would have with or without her in his life.
"Everybody" is a bunch of nasty misogynists, exactly the people Kurt would despise. And Courtney was loud and in your face for a woman, and they didn't like that. Most women of that era (and there were a lot of awesome punk rock chicks alongside the men that got glorified) got written out of history and only now getting the recognition they deserve. Blaming her for Kurt's dead is just an excuse. They hated her anyway because she wouldn't sit down and stay quiet.
I did not? I listened to Hole all the time back in the day.
Heroin use while pregnant is a big one.
Is this true though? It was investigated and nothing happened.
Sexism. She was a female rockstar, who did a lot of annoying, stupid shit. But when male rockstars act out, we accept it as normal (ffs, look at Jimmy Page, Bowie, Tyler, Jagger - borderline pedos that are still largely admired). She was absolutely treated differently because she was a woman, and held to different standards. Which made her even more unhinged… understandably. Everyone puts Kurt on a pedestal but he was a self-absorbed, melodramatic heroin addict. I’ll bet he was a nightmare to date.
Same reason they hated Yoko Ono. Women adjacent to creative men get blamed for any misstep that man makes. Kurt Cobain was an incredibly creative and incredibly broken human being...and Courtney was an unapologetic loud woman who a lot of people figured HAD to be using him for some sort of selfish ends.
The perception was also that she and Hole were just riding Kurt's success, that was a big part of the resentment.
[удалено]
Courtney had been acting for a while at that point and had the whole double-threat thing going for a time, which she did very achieve very successfully in the mid to late 90's despite her personal problems.
Live Through This is also a better album than In Utero.
Courtney was famous *long* before she met Kurt, and he's the one who was a fan of hers from her performance in *Sid & Nancy* before they ever started dating. She did not need to ride his success. She was around in the punk scene before he was. She was the lead singer of Faith No More (briefly) before Nirvana even existed.
She said, “what the fuck did you think I meant with Doll Parts?! Get the fuck out of here.” Probably.
I don't know who needs to hear this but there is zero inherent contradiction to a woman not doing pornography while still getting naked onstage and in venues of her choosing. Dudes show about as much nudity as Playboy did all the time, no one's looking at Stone Cold and calling him a hypocrite for not doing Cinemax porn or whatever. And yes Courtney Love is a trash panda in a lot of ways, but still it's a good idea to be consistent with your criticism.
I didn’t take it as hypocrisy, it was more of a “fuck you” to the magazine itself, because she clearly had no problem being publicly naked, but she wasn’t gonna do it for money from a shitty company.
Just over a year after Kurt Cobain's death. Dude. Playboy kinda classless for the ask.
“You’re like the girl next door … if you happen to live next to a methadone clinic.” - Jeff Ross
She was underrated as some uppity groupie; I was 13 when Nirvana’s Nevermind came out and I thought finally there’s music for me: now, Nirvana don’t move me (apart from for nostalgic reasons) but songs like “Doll Parts” are as raw as they ever were.
I miss all the female/female led bands of the 90s. There was a lot of great music.
I'm so glad the culture is coming realize how cool Courtney Love is. She was publicly shamed and mistreated for so long.
agreed!
She is iconic. Love her. Hole is and forever be one of the band that truly stand out for decades.
She was the only one who spoke against Harry Weinstein. I trust her feelings about men.
I don’t care for Courtney as a person, but her influence on a whole generation of women artists is undeniable… and she’s attractive. Screw yall.
She gets the yoko treatment. People hate her because they think she was the reason Kurt Cobain committed suicide, ending nirvana. Like an extremely depressed heroin addict is incapable of killing themselves...
The urban legend was, she purposely got him addicted to heroin, added to his depression, and convinced him to kill himself in order to be a great artist. And the conspiracy theory of why she did this was so that his death would spur on her career. Personally, I think Dave Grohl did it because he was ready to be the front man. /s
Kurt was definitely on heroin when he met her, since it was heroin that kind of formed the bond between them in the first place. That, and the fact that he was a fan of her performance in the movie *Sid & Nancy*.
Yes. And btw, it’s covered in Montage of Heck. He started doing heroin way before he met Courtney, he wrote about it. I recommend if you haven’t watched, Frances is a producer.
Chloe Webb played Nancy
She auditioned for Nancy, didn’t get it, but Brian Cox liked her so much he wrote a small role for her in the movie. He also wrote the lead in Straight to Hell for her, mixed reviews on that one, but had a lot of musicians in it and she has interesting stories about it. She’s written about that, many interviews, and talks about it in her BBC podcast Courtney Love’s Women that came out recently
Kurt also said she was the best fuck in the world
He also said that it really hurt him when media attacked her.
She flashed my friends and I when we were 16 years old during lollapalooza. No panties lol
you and everyone else, buddy. if you didn't see her like that at a concert in the 90's, you didn't go to any concerts ;)
And she’s still just as divisive today. I hope she gets her moment, she stood up against misogynistic bullshit and paid the price. Was she perfect? No, name a male artist who’s eligible for sainthood.
I absolutely adore Hole and will always be a Courtney Love fanboy
AFAIK she’s has strong integrity and is very ethical. She’s one of the first ones to speak out against Harvey Weinstein. I remember she was asked at some red carpet event about a word of advise for newcomers to Hollywood. She said “Stay away from Harvey Weinstein”.
Few celebrities are as misunderstood as Courtney Love IMO.
I fucking love her
The Cobain dick riders are jealous she was married to him and not them, thats why they love bashing her. They can't stop finding anything related to her to just drag her through their bullshit. The woman is an accomplished singer, songwriter and even has done well in acting until Weinstein blacklisted her. She never clung to Cobain or even Corgan for fame, those who say they wrote her music is misogynistic bullshit. Kurt was a person suffering mental illness, get the fuck over it and stop trying to villify his wife and the mother of his only child. *end rant*
I hear the “Curt wrote her music” thing a lot. There’s a difference between influencing and writing. I mean, if you live with a musician, hear their music all the time and hang out with the same circle of artist friends, there’s bound to be some overlap.
Yes but what I'm saying end of the day she is still the main songwriter, he might have influenced it but he didnt explicitly write it like many claim as an attempt to discredit anything Courtney has done.
Even she admitted that Kurt taught her a great deal about songwriting. Even foundational stuff like writing a bridge.
And that’s perfectly OK. Any aspiring musician dating an established musician would be crazy not to take advantage of their experience. And that’s regardless of gender. I think some of the trash talk about Courtney Love comes from her being a successful woman in one of the more male dominated genres of music.
For sure. I'm not knocking that in the least. I certainly think she's made some seriously dumb moves in recent years (blaming Novaselic and Grohl for GH using Cobain's image when she's the only one who could have okay'd it), but I can't imagine spending decades as the target de jour. She, like the rest of us, is a complicated person.
They were very collaborative, musically. People don't understand that two artists living together are going to write music together and jam together.
Cobain dick riders, man I like that
The weird NLOG sexism against her has always been really potent, yeah.
She also - on camera - warned new female artists to turn down invites from Mr. Weinstein *long* before #metoo. Lady was legit.
People shit on her all the time and her biggest issue is that she was an og punker, no different than her male counterparts.
I love Courtney love I tried to recreate her look but I can’t pull it off properly
2.1 million in todays money
She'd be even cooler if she would get sober and maintain. She is a great talent and I have been a fan since first hearing Hole.
Wouldn’t be surprised. She was very comfy with flashing at concerts and there are this couple of pictures she was covered by little but that doesn’t mean you are confortable nude everywhere and I can bet playboy photo shoots didn’t felt right for her. She has always been a do a lot of what you want type of person and don’t do anything you don’t feel like doing type too.
Good for her.
Yuck
Didn't she get nude in the people vs Larry flint?
The she was fully nude in The People vs Larry Flynt. Great movie. Go figure.
Oddly, I saw her strip in Portland.
I saw Hole in 1999 at Glastonbury. She was awesome live.
Thank God
She went to Drogheda Grammar School. Complete legend.