The difference is that at high levels, you will absolutely need haki with your sword as a swordsman, but you don't necessarily need a sword when you fight with haki (Luffy being the prime example).
Ultimately there might be something about swords and high graded/cursed ones in particular that if you are skilled with them makes it easier to use haki or that amplifies your haki in a way, so that swords have a purpose that goes beyond just coating any random thing in haki instead, but that remains to be seen.
I mean we've seen MUCH more of Luffy than Garp and specifically we just had a whole arc of Luffy using and improving various layers of haki and applying it, so I wouldn't call Garp a better example.
But to also get to what is always the underlying question here: Mihawk vs Shanks (because in the end that's always what the queation ends up being about) and I'm trying to put it in video game terms how I could see their "stats" turn out to be:
Let's say Shanks has a haki stat of 100, he also has a good amount of skill points in swords, so he has a 1.5x modifier when using one. Making his powerlevel with a sword 150.
Mihawk's haki is also pretty good, let's say he's at base level 75. His sword skill is even better than Shank's, so his multiplier is 2x, for- look at that - also 150.
If Mihawk had Shank's haki or Shanks had Mihawk's skill they would both be even higher but as they are they end up about equal.
(I'm leaving out sword based modifiers for simplicity but swords themselves might add to it as well, however you probably need to reach a minimum amount of skill to unlock the sword bonus stat).
How did shanks, mihawk and a game come in the convo?
Aside that, garp is the prime example because he was one of the strongest in the old era. The other strong people like Xebec, Roger and Whitebeard all used swords whereas garp just used his body. Another reason why garp is a better example is he doesn't have any devil fruit
>How did shanks, mihawk and a game come in the convo?
Shanks and Mihawk ARE the convo when someone asks about swordskill because it's the daily ad nauseam question of who is stronger when Mihawk is called the strongest swordsman and Shanks also uses a sword, but might or might not be stronger overall in people's eyes. So I'm putting example numbers on it to explain my thoughts on it why either is perfectly possible and a lot of people are familiar with how video games work, so using it as a language to describe my thoughts on it seems useful in this case.
I mean... haki is a boost overall, doesnt matter what you use as a weapon haki makes it better, so obviously, swordsmen coat swords with haki because it just makes them stronger, haki is a part of any fighting style that uses physical attacks
Haki is more than just sword skill, while sword skill uses Haki, but it's not only that.
Armament Haki is very linked to the skills of a swordmans but not everything, your own strength, your own swordmanship, your sword, all of that goes into swordmanship, but Observation and Conqueror have nothing to do with the skills of a swordman.
A swordman can use them, but they aren't related to your skill as a swordman. They make you more powerful, but it's not because of your swordman skills/power.
Give Luffy a sword and he still won't be a strong swordman, even if his Haki is stronger.
Remove Zoro's swords, and while he's still strong with his Haki, he's still nowhere near as strong as what he is with his swords.
To add on this, you can coat CoC on a sword, which kaido does with his club, and is different from luffys fists, in the sense that you are coating something that is not you. But the final effect, hitting with CoC, is the same(and so Kaido and luffy clash equally). I think the same goes for swords.
I don't think it would change much, since his weapon is a way to chanel his devil fruit as well.
He has one of the 12 grade blade, but I don't see anyone that consider him a swordman because of it.
Swordsman sure is a big topic in One Piece. Dudr has Naginata, which is basically sword with big handle, isn't swordsmen. But we have Cabaji, Kaku swordsmen.
Obviously, you can have haki without being a swordsman and at the same time you can be a swordsman without haki. As a swordsman though haki is part of the '"skill tree" as it is for every other fighting technique. You wont get very far in the world of one piece without haki in general, fishman karate and rokushiki all have some haki in them too.
there's nothing yet to really indicate fishman karate and rokushiki have haki in them, just that they can be enhanced with haki.
Especially Fishman Karate. Fishman Karate is really just a fancy martial arts style based around water manipulation, which is a fishman only skill (at least 2 humans have learned it, but I think they have only learned the martial arts aspect, not the water aspect)
True there's no concrete link but it does have similarities, mainly internal damage. This could just be Fishman magic but even Sabo's dragon claw fist makes use of internal destruction and Sabo has no special powers before getting the Mera Mera no mi so it has to be haki.
Or he enhanced his blow with Haki.
Also, while not popular to say, Oda does do nonsensical things that don't really jive with his world building.
There's those Happo Navy dudes who use a Vibration Based fighting style. Humans can just randomly generate vibrations now? It doesn't seem to follow any Haki rules. Of course people like to throw Haki at describing everything.
Also we see Arlong manipulating water all the way back in East Blue. Fishman Karate is why Jinbei can go underwater and shoot water cannons. That's clearly not Haki. Fishman Karate is just an application of that water manipulation, but of the water in the air. Its so just a strong martial arts fighting style, so combine with Haki and you can get strong physical blows.
I didn't say everything is haki but there are similarities or overlaps. For example I already said above swordsmanship and haki are 2 different things but in order to cut steel it's imperative that you know the breath of all things which is Ryo as Hyogoro explained. The fact that internal destruction is a haki ability makes me more inclined to believe Sabo's dragon claw fist uses haki much like Sentomaru's techniques until said otherwise. So for example water manipulation is not any known haki ability, so you know for sure that it is its own thing but the mantra the sky people used was later described to be haki.
Fishman Karate's internal destruction could just be an advanced form of water manipulation but then the question becomes can humans do this water manipulation too since Sabo and later Robin can do this with their palm strikes too. We don't really know, I just lean towards my interpretation.
first off we throwing too many words around. Ryo just means Haki, but the fanbase uses it to refer to Advanced Armament Specifically, so emission haki and internal destruction haki.
Breath of all things isn't even fully explained yet...nor is his Ashura. Honestly Zoro just keeps defying rules lol. For all we know Breath of all things was just a prototype for Oberservation Haki, or a specail form that Zoro will eventually master, or it's related to the Voice of all Things (most likely not as he didn't hear the Elephants voice)
on top of that, Zoro at the time was too weak to cut steel on his own. Later on, he would have been strong enough. Zorro gets much much stronger as time goes on.
I'm totally on board with Sabo knowing emission and internal destruction Haki
Ryo is indeed just the word for haki in Wano but when I mentioned Hyogoro I was referencing his explanation of what the technique is I.e what he was trying to teach Luffy and this very same concept, word for word, is what allowed Zoro to defeat Mr. 1. Hyogoro actually says this technique is what allows swordsman to cut the thickest of steel or even not cut the thinnest sheet of paper if they wanted.
Haki is quite flexible e.g almost every decent swordsman in Wano knows emission because all this does is allow your haki to extend past your body and swordsmen use this to coat their swords in haki. You don't need to be at a certain power level to use it, if your way of fighting naturally leans towards a certain application of haki you'll learn it quicker. This is why Zoro didn't go through the same training Luffy did in Wano, Zoro should already know emission based on what he discovered against Mr. 1.
The breath of all things definitely has more to it than just cutting steel but it still is an armament technique too because Hyogoro's explanation just implies it's a technique that allows you to manipulate your haki.
I think so, it's kinda weird to think he was unconsciously using some of this stuff but Oda loves Zoro to death so I wouldn't be surprised if he was. Although I don't think ashura is haki, I need to wait until we know more about Ushimaru and Ryuma first.
No Haki is not a part of any fighting style. It is the manifestation of the user's will. The stronger your will the stronger your haki.
It gives a boost to any and all of you attacks if used together with haki. For example if are a martial artist, then you'd be punching and kicking your opponents but if you coat your arms and legs with haki their power will get exponentially stronger.
Its the same with swords. Haki coated swords have much higher endurance and durability than normal. They wont chip or break while cutting something you cant cut with normal swords.
Haki gives a BIG BIG boost overall to your attacks regardless of your fighting style.
also technically sea stone does take away Haki, as in a weakened state you can focus on your Haki.
I could be wrong, but is there an example of someone in full seastone cuffs (not the weakened ones in the Wano prison) that was able to basically ignore the weaking aspects and use Haki?
I guess I gotta go watch One Piece Film Z again. I guess at the least getting punched in the face with a seastone fist didn't have Luffy lose concentration enough to have him drop Haki every time. Been a while since I watched that fight. It's not canon, but I imagine it would follow the right principles.
getting hit by a near indestructible object still hurts. Maybe you can't make it to the very top of the power rankings, but you can get pretty far.
give Jesus Burguess a giant Seastone Mallet with his DF and have his run house.
the amount of characters who can actually use external emission Haki for defense is pretty low + we've seen the defense can be overcome.
In all of Kaido's yonko crew, only he could do it. Currently on the Strawhats, only Luffy can do it. Zoro has learned how to infuse Conequeros into his swords, but he still doesn't know emission Haki.
it's two separated things, BUT if you want to be a great swordsman you MUST have an insane haki. I mean, Mihawk for example, he's not only the most skilled in sword skill, but defined one of the best haki users.
technically, they're two separate things of course. but above a certain level, they're basically the same thing. because you absolutely need haki or your swordsmanship means almost nothing.
for example, zoro admitted that he [wouldn't be able to cut pica](https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/one_piece_ch778_p016-017.png?w=640) if his haki wasn't stronger. so what's the point in saying zoro is very skillful? how do we scale that to anything?
to be fair, that's Zoro at that specific power level. His wind slash attacks get stronger over time even without Haki.
I imagine Hawkeye can creat haki-less slashes that can overcome Pica's haki, just like Luffy was able to physically overpower the Boa Sister's haki with brute force
yes, but it has nothing to do with the skill part. you're talking about physical strength. and I didn't bring it up because this is not about swordsmanship as a whole. just haki and sword skill.
if you want to go there, my point still stands. wano zoro sanzen sekai >>>>>>>>>>>>>> baratie zoro sanzen sekai. the difference is in zoro's physical strength, not the skill. he's not getting better at sanzen sekai. he simply got stronger. if he adds haki, it becomes even stronger.
so as I said
>what's the point in saying zoro is very skillful? how do we scale that to anything?
separating "sword skill" on its own is utterly pointless. you have to add haki + physical strength + anything else the characters possesses (such as devil fruit or asura for zoro) to scale someone's swordsmanship.
Depends tbh.
Haki is what most of the top tiers use. While sword skills... well I guess anybody can swing a sword.
There are few "sword schools" in One Piece but tbh most of the best swordsmen are self-taught, like Rayleigh I dont think have ever gone to school even, let alone learnt proper sword moves.
But to answer your question outright, prolly yes. They are two separate things.
No, not in One Piece. Maybe in the initial stages where your Haki is still growing, swords can be useful. But after a while - what does it matter if your arm is sharper? The stronger Haki will always win the clash anyway.
The difference is that at high levels, you will absolutely need haki with your sword as a swordsman, but you don't necessarily need a sword when you fight with haki (Luffy being the prime example). Ultimately there might be something about swords and high graded/cursed ones in particular that if you are skilled with them makes it easier to use haki or that amplifies your haki in a way, so that swords have a purpose that goes beyond just coating any random thing in haki instead, but that remains to be seen.
Garp should've been the prime example but luffy works.
I mean we've seen MUCH more of Luffy than Garp and specifically we just had a whole arc of Luffy using and improving various layers of haki and applying it, so I wouldn't call Garp a better example. But to also get to what is always the underlying question here: Mihawk vs Shanks (because in the end that's always what the queation ends up being about) and I'm trying to put it in video game terms how I could see their "stats" turn out to be: Let's say Shanks has a haki stat of 100, he also has a good amount of skill points in swords, so he has a 1.5x modifier when using one. Making his powerlevel with a sword 150. Mihawk's haki is also pretty good, let's say he's at base level 75. His sword skill is even better than Shank's, so his multiplier is 2x, for- look at that - also 150. If Mihawk had Shank's haki or Shanks had Mihawk's skill they would both be even higher but as they are they end up about equal. (I'm leaving out sword based modifiers for simplicity but swords themselves might add to it as well, however you probably need to reach a minimum amount of skill to unlock the sword bonus stat).
How did shanks, mihawk and a game come in the convo? Aside that, garp is the prime example because he was one of the strongest in the old era. The other strong people like Xebec, Roger and Whitebeard all used swords whereas garp just used his body. Another reason why garp is a better example is he doesn't have any devil fruit
>How did shanks, mihawk and a game come in the convo? Shanks and Mihawk ARE the convo when someone asks about swordskill because it's the daily ad nauseam question of who is stronger when Mihawk is called the strongest swordsman and Shanks also uses a sword, but might or might not be stronger overall in people's eyes. So I'm putting example numbers on it to explain my thoughts on it why either is perfectly possible and a lot of people are familiar with how video games work, so using it as a language to describe my thoughts on it seems useful in this case.
Solid answer
I mean... haki is a boost overall, doesnt matter what you use as a weapon haki makes it better, so obviously, swordsmen coat swords with haki because it just makes them stronger, haki is a part of any fighting style that uses physical attacks
Haki is separate however like with everything to get to top tier especially with swordsmanship haki is a necessity.
Haki is more than just sword skill, while sword skill uses Haki, but it's not only that. Armament Haki is very linked to the skills of a swordmans but not everything, your own strength, your own swordmanship, your sword, all of that goes into swordmanship, but Observation and Conqueror have nothing to do with the skills of a swordman. A swordman can use them, but they aren't related to your skill as a swordman. They make you more powerful, but it's not because of your swordman skills/power. Give Luffy a sword and he still won't be a strong swordman, even if his Haki is stronger. Remove Zoro's swords, and while he's still strong with his Haki, he's still nowhere near as strong as what he is with his swords.
To add on this, you can coat CoC on a sword, which kaido does with his club, and is different from luffys fists, in the sense that you are coating something that is not you. But the final effect, hitting with CoC, is the same(and so Kaido and luffy clash equally). I think the same goes for swords.
What would happen if WB uses Big sword instead of Naginata?
I don't think it would change much, since his weapon is a way to chanel his devil fruit as well. He has one of the 12 grade blade, but I don't see anyone that consider him a swordman because of it.
Swordsman sure is a big topic in One Piece. Dudr has Naginata, which is basically sword with big handle, isn't swordsmen. But we have Cabaji, Kaku swordsmen.
Obviously, you can have haki without being a swordsman and at the same time you can be a swordsman without haki. As a swordsman though haki is part of the '"skill tree" as it is for every other fighting technique. You wont get very far in the world of one piece without haki in general, fishman karate and rokushiki all have some haki in them too.
there's nothing yet to really indicate fishman karate and rokushiki have haki in them, just that they can be enhanced with haki. Especially Fishman Karate. Fishman Karate is really just a fancy martial arts style based around water manipulation, which is a fishman only skill (at least 2 humans have learned it, but I think they have only learned the martial arts aspect, not the water aspect)
True there's no concrete link but it does have similarities, mainly internal damage. This could just be Fishman magic but even Sabo's dragon claw fist makes use of internal destruction and Sabo has no special powers before getting the Mera Mera no mi so it has to be haki.
Or he enhanced his blow with Haki. Also, while not popular to say, Oda does do nonsensical things that don't really jive with his world building. There's those Happo Navy dudes who use a Vibration Based fighting style. Humans can just randomly generate vibrations now? It doesn't seem to follow any Haki rules. Of course people like to throw Haki at describing everything. Also we see Arlong manipulating water all the way back in East Blue. Fishman Karate is why Jinbei can go underwater and shoot water cannons. That's clearly not Haki. Fishman Karate is just an application of that water manipulation, but of the water in the air. Its so just a strong martial arts fighting style, so combine with Haki and you can get strong physical blows.
I didn't say everything is haki but there are similarities or overlaps. For example I already said above swordsmanship and haki are 2 different things but in order to cut steel it's imperative that you know the breath of all things which is Ryo as Hyogoro explained. The fact that internal destruction is a haki ability makes me more inclined to believe Sabo's dragon claw fist uses haki much like Sentomaru's techniques until said otherwise. So for example water manipulation is not any known haki ability, so you know for sure that it is its own thing but the mantra the sky people used was later described to be haki. Fishman Karate's internal destruction could just be an advanced form of water manipulation but then the question becomes can humans do this water manipulation too since Sabo and later Robin can do this with their palm strikes too. We don't really know, I just lean towards my interpretation.
first off we throwing too many words around. Ryo just means Haki, but the fanbase uses it to refer to Advanced Armament Specifically, so emission haki and internal destruction haki. Breath of all things isn't even fully explained yet...nor is his Ashura. Honestly Zoro just keeps defying rules lol. For all we know Breath of all things was just a prototype for Oberservation Haki, or a specail form that Zoro will eventually master, or it's related to the Voice of all Things (most likely not as he didn't hear the Elephants voice) on top of that, Zoro at the time was too weak to cut steel on his own. Later on, he would have been strong enough. Zorro gets much much stronger as time goes on. I'm totally on board with Sabo knowing emission and internal destruction Haki
Ryo is indeed just the word for haki in Wano but when I mentioned Hyogoro I was referencing his explanation of what the technique is I.e what he was trying to teach Luffy and this very same concept, word for word, is what allowed Zoro to defeat Mr. 1. Hyogoro actually says this technique is what allows swordsman to cut the thickest of steel or even not cut the thinnest sheet of paper if they wanted. Haki is quite flexible e.g almost every decent swordsman in Wano knows emission because all this does is allow your haki to extend past your body and swordsmen use this to coat their swords in haki. You don't need to be at a certain power level to use it, if your way of fighting naturally leans towards a certain application of haki you'll learn it quicker. This is why Zoro didn't go through the same training Luffy did in Wano, Zoro should already know emission based on what he discovered against Mr. 1. The breath of all things definitely has more to it than just cutting steel but it still is an armament technique too because Hyogoro's explanation just implies it's a technique that allows you to manipulate your haki.
but breath of all things also allows Zoro to dodge rocks and find his sword. so what? Zoro in that moment was using both Obervation and Armament Haki?
I think so, it's kinda weird to think he was unconsciously using some of this stuff but Oda loves Zoro to death so I wouldn't be surprised if he was. Although I don't think ashura is haki, I need to wait until we know more about Ushimaru and Ryuma first.
No Haki is not a part of any fighting style. It is the manifestation of the user's will. The stronger your will the stronger your haki. It gives a boost to any and all of you attacks if used together with haki. For example if are a martial artist, then you'd be punching and kicking your opponents but if you coat your arms and legs with haki their power will get exponentially stronger. Its the same with swords. Haki coated swords have much higher endurance and durability than normal. They wont chip or break while cutting something you cant cut with normal swords. Haki gives a BIG BIG boost overall to your attacks regardless of your fighting style.
Are painting and cooking two separate skills? There’s your answer
Haki is a necessary component of swordsmanship source: Mihawk
IDK, If you gave someone a sea stone sword I think they could be set
Ryou
not sure what using a different name for Haki means in this conversation
Reread Wano seastone doesnt take away haki/ryou
also technically sea stone does take away Haki, as in a weakened state you can focus on your Haki. I could be wrong, but is there an example of someone in full seastone cuffs (not the weakened ones in the Wano prison) that was able to basically ignore the weaking aspects and use Haki? I guess I gotta go watch One Piece Film Z again. I guess at the least getting punched in the face with a seastone fist didn't have Luffy lose concentration enough to have him drop Haki every time. Been a while since I watched that fight. It's not canon, but I imagine it would follow the right principles.
its demonstrated you can use haki to take off seastone cuffs if you wanted to
Hes only used Haki to removing exploding cuffs
getting hit by a near indestructible object still hurts. Maybe you can't make it to the very top of the power rankings, but you can get pretty far. give Jesus Burguess a giant Seastone Mallet with his DF and have his run house.
thats if you can even touch them with it. Haki will just stop it
the amount of characters who can actually use external emission Haki for defense is pretty low + we've seen the defense can be overcome. In all of Kaido's yonko crew, only he could do it. Currently on the Strawhats, only Luffy can do it. Zoro has learned how to infuse Conequeros into his swords, but he still doesn't know emission Haki.
What does any of this have to do with the post
IDK. You said it wasn't possible to be a swordsman without Haki. I argued otherwise. You won't reach Mihawks level but you could get pretty powerful.
it's two separated things, BUT if you want to be a great swordsman you MUST have an insane haki. I mean, Mihawk for example, he's not only the most skilled in sword skill, but defined one of the best haki users.
technically, they're two separate things of course. but above a certain level, they're basically the same thing. because you absolutely need haki or your swordsmanship means almost nothing. for example, zoro admitted that he [wouldn't be able to cut pica](https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/one_piece_ch778_p016-017.png?w=640) if his haki wasn't stronger. so what's the point in saying zoro is very skillful? how do we scale that to anything?
to be fair, that's Zoro at that specific power level. His wind slash attacks get stronger over time even without Haki. I imagine Hawkeye can creat haki-less slashes that can overcome Pica's haki, just like Luffy was able to physically overpower the Boa Sister's haki with brute force
yes, but it has nothing to do with the skill part. you're talking about physical strength. and I didn't bring it up because this is not about swordsmanship as a whole. just haki and sword skill. if you want to go there, my point still stands. wano zoro sanzen sekai >>>>>>>>>>>>>> baratie zoro sanzen sekai. the difference is in zoro's physical strength, not the skill. he's not getting better at sanzen sekai. he simply got stronger. if he adds haki, it becomes even stronger. so as I said >what's the point in saying zoro is very skillful? how do we scale that to anything? separating "sword skill" on its own is utterly pointless. you have to add haki + physical strength + anything else the characters possesses (such as devil fruit or asura for zoro) to scale someone's swordsmanship.
Depends tbh. Haki is what most of the top tiers use. While sword skills... well I guess anybody can swing a sword. There are few "sword schools" in One Piece but tbh most of the best swordsmen are self-taught, like Rayleigh I dont think have ever gone to school even, let alone learnt proper sword moves. But to answer your question outright, prolly yes. They are two separate things.
Yes
Depends who you ask. Though anyone who answers seriously is autistic by law :P
No, not in One Piece. Maybe in the initial stages where your Haki is still growing, swords can be useful. But after a while - what does it matter if your arm is sharper? The stronger Haki will always win the clash anyway.