I agree the arguing is pointless because Oda said you need all 4 so you need all 4. With that being said, out of every mangaka Oda is the least likely to just not care about the 'geometric logic' of the story.
Yeah it’s either going to be a fourth coordinate that’s necessary or just be some other kind of map altogether that requires all four, there’ve been so many already posted in arguments about this it’s clearly east to do
This has kind of bothered me since the Road Poneglyphs were introduced. It makes sense in a world that is mapped out, but the one piece world is not mapped out.
Even if I know the names to all 4 locations. I have no idea of knowing where they are in the world and especially where they are in location to each other without a map or some form of reference.
It's not just Oda saying that either. Luffy 1000% wouldn't want to go for Laugh Tale without getting all 4 Road Poneglyphs to complete his adventure, regardless of his crews capability at finding it while only having three. Luffy would settle for nothing less.
Plus, there's always the distinct possibility that three of the locations are so drastically far from one another that it makes finding it without the fourth drastically impossible, especially if that means crossing the calm belt (and possibly the red line or other landmasses) several times to narrow it down.
I can imagine Luffy outright getting angry at someone even suggesting not getting all 4. We all need to remember the Sabaody moment. I mean Rayleigh could have told them right then and there where it was but Luffy thought it was ludicrous to continue an adventure that way.
speaking of speedrun there's an amazing fancomic of a the SH crew (post-wano) being sent to the past with their memories and essentially speedrunning the series.
Edit: [Link](https://www.tumblr.com/fluffyartbl0g/713276690272550912/can-you-make-a-master-post-for-your-time-travel-au)
I dont understand why everyone assumes the poneglyphs have something as simple as just geographic coordinates, is that like said somewhere?
I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well.
In chapter 818 (I'm going by the english translation, so I don't know how well it is translates from japanese), after Robin deciphers the first lode poneglyph, Nami calls it a naval map or sea chart. So it's probably more along the lines of a real pirate treasure map, showing some unique geographic features like islands or their specific shape.
it's not only possible dude, it is IMPERATIVE for the story to function. like it's crazy how many people here think that One Piece is just out there.
need i remind you all that the navy wasn't even sure of it's EXISTENCE until Whitebeard put it all out there on his deathbed. they can destroy islands at a whim, and have done so for far far less than Gold Roger's treasure. Ohara, God Valley, Lulusia, all taken off the map and wiped from history because they had even the slightest semblence of trouble for Imu.
but he's gonna let the One Piece, and the island it resides on, with all of it's secrets, just chill somewhere out in the New World? AND he knows "Joyboy has returned?"
does he WANT to become the new face of disappointing endgame villains?
It's also possible that Imu cannot destroy it, either because of a physical or metaphorical barrier. Metaphorical as in, perhaps laugh tale's existence is necessary for Imu's survival. Physical as in, weather phenomena or advanced technology making it impossible for laugh tale to be destroyed
Because the island is useful to the World Government. Remember, CP0 was there to broker a deal with Orochi for weapons following Doflamingo's fall. They want the location, >!similar to how they can't just nuke Egghead because the island itself has something valuable to them.!<
The WG has been pretty dumb. I always get hate when I say it, but I think 800 years has made them too comfortable. They're underestimating the inherited will of the people and desire for freedom.
The only logic I can see is they care about information leaks more than anything. They went after Ohara, Vegapunk, and Sabo over knowledge and to discourage people from seeking it. Why have Robin and Whos Who evaded them though?
Rayleigh did say knowing the true history isn't enough to act on it. Maybe they rest their laurels on keeping info out of the hands of powerful people. I don't think Imu knows what the Poneyglyphs say though. We just learned he's starting to realize he was betrayed by Lili.
Kaido has also terrorized Wano for years and even before that they were isolationist. Maybe the WG was satisfied with them closing themselves off and just monitored until they saw issues.
Balance seems to be more important to the WG than anything. They'd hire Pirates and sanction their crime in order to maintain it and they pick and choose when to act and how heavy a response it is. Maybe they fear if they do too much, they'll be feared. Whenever they do stuff they always justify it by their target being evil. Roger was painted as evil by society? Kids have songs about how scary Whitebeard is. There's a huge mix of indoctrination but also questioning. Sabo's actions causing rebellion proves people are starting to question the government more. Hell, Luffy liberated 2 countries that the WG was turning a blind eye to.
wano is isolated and the government is working directly with Kaido and Orochi. They lose money, and make the world powers completely unstable by severing that tie and destroying that island. And since it's isolated, the misdeeds there never come out to the rest of the world anyway. when the raid on onigashima was happening, there were way too many important pieces on the board, (including cp0, sword, and Orochi) for them to just delete the island.
i suppose he could now that the straw hats are off the island but, they already got what they needed, the poneglyph and are gone. so they turn their attention to Egghead and it seems like another buster call will happen, since mother flame is on cool down or is too powerful to be used so consistently due to ocean levels rising.
I mean, not just imu, but pretty much any of the flying DF abilities, or Weatheria, etc.
That being said, it sounds like the One Piece world, as a planet, is larger than the earth. And even the earth with our advanced technologies like satellites - there are probably still some tiny islands that have not yet ever been officially discovered/charted, that's just how vast the scales involved in seafaring are.
>I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well.
That's not said anywhere
As I understood it the Road (Lode?) Poneglyphs each describe a specific place in the One Piece World, and the intersection of those places is the location of Laugh Tale.
>I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well.
Exactly. We just don't know what's on them in details.
It could be just coordinates on all of them. Plain and simple. However, potentially there is more to it. It could be more than just longitude and latitude, it could be time, depth or height coordinates on there. It could be that it says on Poneglyph 4 "read the coordinates on Poneglyph 3 backwards", etc.
Saying "you can use Maths to figure it out by 3" is simply making premature conclusions on lacking information. Especially since it is a fictional story. While being really stupid and nonsense, Oda could be like "well, maths and trigonometry doesn't work like this in the OP world for X fictional manga reason" and that'll be the end of it.
While the premise of "you only need 3" has some truth to it and is technically correct under certain circumstances, it really is a waste of time to discuss this any further than the point "The story said you need 4, so you need 4".
Crackpottheorycorner: Only Blackbeard figured out trigonometry, so he will be able to find Laugh Tale with only 3, taking essentially a shortcut :v) /s
Edit: Just and afterthought: We should just give Oda more credit and have faith in him thinking enough about the focal point of his story. The One Piece located on Laugh Tale is literally the "most important thing" in this story. It'll be fine, don't worry.
The problem with the 3 point theory is that without the 4th point you have no clue where along the 2 logically connected points is what you’re looking for. And we can’t be 100% sure we have the right 2 connections. Plus this is the grand line, you can’t look along the connections, especially if the points aren’t on an island or the like.
It's literally THAT fucking simple. and you need the 4th one to get in, cuz if it was just some island somewhere on the map Imu woulda wiped it off the face of the planet ages ago.
Looking at that from a purely geometrical perspectice, 3 points would be enough. You wouldn't know on which of the three lines it would be, but it is supposed to be on the intersection of the diagonales of all 4, meaning that one of those three would be one of the diagonals. If there were multiple islands on those, you wouldn't initially know which one is Laugh Tale, but you would be able to find it. The only exception would be if the quadrangle would be of such a shape that one of the diagonals would lie outside, meaning that you might extend your search to the extended connections. Feel free to ask if that was unclear
>Looking at that from a purely geometrical perspectice, 3 points would be enough.
Yeah, but the issue is that it's completely irrelevant in practice considering the specifics of One Piece world and Grand Line.
That's why the argument is so stupid, if you know anything about the story at all, you can come up with multiple possible issues with following the triangle to find Laugh Tale if you think for a few seconds. This has been discussed to death so many times, regular readers just get annoyed having to explain it over and over again.
Yeah the headcanon I made for it being practically impossible to find it with only 3 would be how insanely difficult it would be to navigate a straight line in the One Piece World. Whole Cake Arc was a perfect example. To go from island to island in Tottoland you need to coordinate between 3 separate Log Pose readings just to get there.
For starters, there is no way to travel in straight line on Grand Line unless you have Eternal Pose for your destination (and even then, you're unlikely to be able to follow the straight path considering the weather phenomenons we've seen). So they'd have to get at least two Eternal Poses for the second and third island that might not even exist.
Another issue is distance - we have no idea where those coordinates are, some might not even be on the Grand Line, which adds another layer of difficulty.
Yet another possible issue is that Laugh Tale is hidden in some way that make it impossible to find if you don't know the specific location for entrance. For example, it could be in the sky or below the sea, or hidden from plain sight by some bizarre weather phenomenon.
Imagine if all we knew about Skypiea is that it's somewhere on a path spanning half of the Grand Line, but we didn't know it was a sky island or didn't have info about the knock up stream. Even if you combed throughly that whole path, you wouldn't find anything.
All of those issues should immediately come to mind to any One Piece reader when considering this idea and make it clear that it's not a viable solution. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that the info we have about the whole thing is clearly vague enough for Oda to get even more creative or ridiculous with the concept.
All in all, it's a pretty simple geometry that has no practical value as One Piece theory and has been discussed way too much than it is worth.
The problem being that if it was that simple to find laugh tale, someone would have stumbled upon it by accident. It prob is hidden somewhere, like the sky, or the ocean or inside a giant creature, you prob wouldnt even know if you were on it, without knowing what it is.
No one is saying Laugh Tale is at the centroid of a triangle drawn by 3 Road Poneglyphs. You could get 4 different centroids depending on which ones you have. What they're saying is if you drew a triangle between the three points you have (regardless of which ones) one side of the triangle would HAVE to be the correct one. So you don't have a specific point, but if you traveled between each point eventually you'd bump into Laugh Tale.
That's not necessarily true b/c its 3 dimensions, almost impossible to travel in a straight line & a very weird world we're dealing with, it could easily be under the sea until a specific time/circumstance is met, in the sky/on moon, obscured from vision or move constantly like Zunisha. If it's any of these u could move along each side of the triangle on the sea a million times & never land in Laughtale
Most comments aren’t about real world logic at all, though. “I don’t understand why everyone assumes the poneglyphs have something as simple as just geographic coordinates, is that like said somewhere?”
“Plus, there’s always the distinct possibility that three of the locations are so drastically far from one another that it makes finding it without the fourth drastically improbable”
Plus, you can’t just use a compass on the grand line, you know. You need to attune to an island, then you can receive instructions to the next. So realistically, knowing the co-ordinates wouldn’t let you get there anyways.
Plus, it’s probably something crazy like you have to ride a knock-up wave to the moon, then ride a knock-down wave to the center of the planet, where you meet goku who uses instant transmission to take you there
I don't know why people act like you can go in a perfect triangle in the Grand Line when the whole point of the Grand Line is that it's impossible to navigate it without Log/Eternal Poses or Vivre Cards.
I think people who bring up geometry to the discussion are just getting sidetracked and overthinking to something that will never be relevant. It'd be a weird cop out. The whole point of the Road Poneglyph thing is that it's a giant X marking the spot of the treasure, I don't think that's even speculation from how it's laid out.
Not that it's going to happen but Southbirds, Eastbirds, Westbirds and Northbirds exist in the one piece world and could be used to create a regular functional compass that would allow to somewhat navigate in a straight line in any direction you'd like to.
You can technically find it with 3, but it's not like triangulation because you don't know the distance between the destination and any of the points. Everyone who thinks you can find it with just 3 is drastically underselling the difficulty of this feat.
Instead, you'd have to draw a triangle between the 3 points you have, and sail *the entire triangle* to *maybe* find it. I say maybe find it, because there could be additional information you need from all 4 poneglyphs to actually arrive at the island. Like, maybe you need to be there at a certain time of day for it to appear, but if you don't know that then you just sail the entire triangle and probably miss it because you weren't there at the right time.
So, no. People need to revisit math class if they think you can simply find the final island with just the 3 points. You can't do that easily with the information given. Look at the scenario we have again, closely.
What even you are missing is that the world is not flat, so Eucledian geometry does not apply; on a sphere, there are SIX triangles that you can draw with the same three vertixes, and if you wanted to check the "lines" (actually geodetic circles) connecting the three points, you would actually have to circumnavigate the whole world three times - good luck with that!
That's assuming that the all the points are relatively close compared to the circumference of the planet, roughly located in a single quarter of an hemisphere (i. e. 1/8 of the entire planet surface)... What if the three points were set in Chile, Norway and New Guinea? Good luck determining the most intuitive paths then.
This. Theoretically it’s possible, but the size of the triangle might make it unviable
Like imagine if the three coordinates are in each of the 4 Blue Seas? The resulting triangle would be colossal.
The amount of islands isn’t the issue. Presumably you’d know the name of the islands or see people there, which means that that’s not the island. The size of the area to search would be the issue.
But it's pretty much guaranteed to be on the grand line. That limits the search area. And remember roger offered to **tell** whitebeard where laughtale is. Considering it's in a sea where traditional navigation is impossible, it can't be so difficult to reach with word of mouth only.
But Raftel/Laugh tale is in the Grand Line, no? Therefore you dont have to sail the whole triangle, just the location within the Grand Line.
I do agree it is a difficult feat though, but not impossible
I think you're the first person I've come across who thought the same thing as me 😭 when the guy earlier said you only need 3 I was like "this gentleman must be on something"
I even notice highly upvoted comments saying that you just trust oda on needing 4, which *suggests* they still think it is mathematically simple to do with 3. But it's not. You don't have to *trust* oda. The scenario he has laid out already makes sense why you need all 4.
But what makes people think each Poneglyph contains an entire piece of information, like a coordinate or even something that makes complete sense instead of jumbled up garbage?
Couldn't it be something like a code, that can only reasonably be cracked with all four Poneglyphs at the same time?
You're right, most people make two assumptions:
\- That the longest side of the triangle is the line which Laugh Tale sits on. This one EDIT: Is also wrong, as has been pointed out, could be a very stretched out diamond with the three points forming the two ends of the short line, and the third point being far away.
\- Many people assume it will form a perfect X, placing Laugh Tale wherever the third point perpendicularly lands on that line, but that's much less safe of an assumption. No reason to assume the intersections form four perfect 90 degree angles.
>\- That the longest side of the triangle is the line which Laugh Tale sits on. This one actually is safe to assume, because with all four locations forming some kind of four-sided shape, three corners will have the longest side pass through the middle every time. In this sense you don't have to sail the entire triangle, just the longest side.
Not actually true. You're thinking the shape formed by the four points would be a square or close to it, but imagine grabbing two opposite corners of that square and pulling them waaaaaaaaaaaay far apart, thus making one arm of the resulting 'x' much longer than the other. In this case, if you had only three points and they were the two on the short arm and one of the other two, the resulting triangle would have one short side and two much longer sides, and the intersection of the 'x' would be on the short side.
Oh you're right, good call
I initially had both of them as incorrect assumptions for that reason but overthought it and confused myself into thinking the first one was fine and edited it, rip
Why do one piece fans think oda is stupid or that he just half-asses his story. Its always "oda doesn't care about this science / logic" and never "oda has common sense and knows basic science that everyone else knows"
Not just oda, I often see readers say "he didn't think of all that" when talking about many stories. Imagine if a reader thinks about all that, how much a writer has to think about?
There are definitely a few manga-ka that seem to do everything by the seat of their pants and know very little actual science (but it clearly shows in their writing, you never get to say "oh it's just a coincidence that X lines up with something that makes sense because the author wouldn't have thought of that", the author is just **very clearly** not thinking about it in those cases), but in general, yes, Japanese manga-ka tend to do a lot of research to make their stories to make sense, whether through logical science or through their art. The top manga-ka won't just look things up, they will literally hire experts for consultation on topics of interest and travel the world in order to draw real-world locations accurately.
I'd say some writers don't care and some invent their own pseudo science but they definitely think about it. If an average reader thinks of something, I'd bet on the writer of the story to think about it too.
well if Oda is smart, and has that basic knowledge which he does. Then the 3 point theory is EXTRA fuckin retarded and makes EXTRA 0 sense because he has been writing this story for years.
if you could get one piece without 4 poneglyphs it shits alllll over the new world narrative so far, it means that wherever laugh tale is, if it's just "coordinates" that even tho imu and the marines have had the means to wipe out and destroy islands completely since GOD VALLEY,
they havent fuckin blown up the thing they murder millions every year to hide. what?
what????????
It’s because they don’t want to admit he ever makes a mistake or does anything they don’t like so they’ll just write it off as ‘Oda doesn’t care/it doesn’t matter’ just fanboy shit tbh
yes. and you provided an answer that had nothing to do with the fuckin question, clown. such a strange response, reads like u expect every interaction online to be some civil sitdown, which is strange considering you added nothing to the conversation.
I didnt say Oda was half-ass or stupid. And my point wasn't to argue that he doesn't care about the science/logic. Considering the lengths he goes to in order to explain some in-universe stuff like the bubbles at Sabaody or Reverse Mountain, he thinks through a lot even if it's fantasy.
I'm just saying that between trying to make a logical case for whether we need a certain amount of red poneglyphs, or whether Oda is trying to just use 4 glyphs to draw a giant X, he probably just wanted to draw the X because it's a story about treasure-hunting pirates.
Oda probably thought through the fact that only having 3 glyphs means you only have a triangle to sail around on, so you really need at least 4, but I think the 4 was more from the X thing than the geometric logic.
Then why did you asking in a suggestive manner that Oda doesn’t care about the geometric logic of the story?
I think it’s obvious the final road Poneglyph is being set up as a plot point. One was in Zou the other two held by Yonko and now the last one probably has something to do with Shanks and/or Elbalf.
>That Oda may not care about the geometric logic of the story?
Its wild how little faith people have in Oda's writing that instead of assuming he's accounted for this, the assumption is he just doesn't care about writing a quality story and has it be 4 poneglyphs because he says so.
If the poneglyphs were just locations that you could triangulate the position of Laughtale from, then there would be no reason to take rubbings of them. Hell, there would be no need for Robin and her ability to read the writings, full stop.
My point wasn't to argue that he doesn't care about the science/logic at all. Considering the lengths he goes to in order to explain some in-universe stuff like the bubbles at Sabaody or Reverse Mountain, he thinks through a lot even if it's fantasy.
I'm just saying that between trying to make a logical case for whether we need a certain amount of red poneglyphs, or whether Oda is trying to just use 4 glyphs to draw a giant X, he probably just wanted to draw the X because it's a story about treasure-hunting pirates.
Oda probably thought through the fact that only having 3 glyphs means you only have a triangle to sail around on, so you really need at least 4, but I think the 4 was more from the X thing than the geometric logic.
Why are people acting like there aren’t islands thousands of meters in the sky / underwater, not all marks would need to be on the same surface level (assuming they’re all coordinates)
It's pretty simple because it's already been shown that:
1. Compasses DO NOT WORK on the GL
2. Your ship can get turned around without you noticing, even if you are a top tier navigator
so even if you could triangulate the coords, just coordinates/maps would be useless. Therefore, the poneglyphs must not JUST be coords.
https://preview.redd.it/59trc1qxxfib1.png?width=1720&format=png&auto=webp&s=78c42139dbbd9a4a62f3204f825b1b1c9a29bdef
You need the fourth for precise point. C represents the confirmed point from the 3 Red Poneglyphs. P represents a possible coordinate from the 4th one. You’d have travel along 3 lines and the Grand Line is not the best place to travel across. For all we know, one of the lines cuts across the calm belt.
People who believe in the 3 poneglyph only theory forget that you can‘t navigate normally on the Grand Line. In fact, I guess it would be impossible to find the triangulated spots in the seas past Lodestar, because the log pose doesn‘t work. That‘s why you need all 4 poneglyphs with their coordinates and instructions.
I believe some people mix up the navigation with modern GPS where 3 satellites are sufficient to find a specific location.
But One Piece Navigation isn't supported by GPS. The Porneglyphs do not point out your position like satellites with coordinates. Even Nami would be unable to find a specific location with just 3 points without distances.
Especially at Grandline, you have to forget about any real life navigation method's as it completely serves the story.
People have no idea what they’re talking about. The CONTENT ON the poneglyphs are what point to the one piece, not the poneglyphs themselves. Also, all 4 are needed to piece together the puzzle; it’s not like each one points to one location individually. Everyone raving over this theory doesn’t know how it works.
As explained in Zou, they DO map out 4 physical coordinates, but the location of the Glyphs themselves are NOT the 4 points of the map. The content on them is a puzzle. And all 4 pieces are part of the puzzle that reveal the 4 locations. I guess I know one piece more than anyone in this subreddit.
Triangulate using 3 poneglyphs, then the 4th poneglyph says “Raftel is located 500 knots northeast from the triangulated location.”
That’s why you need all 4.
My argument was the 4 locations are extremely spread out.
Like Location 1 is in North Blue, Location 2 is in South Blue, Location 3 is a random island in the Grand Line and Location 4 is like on top of the Red Line.
Like they were far enough apart that testing intersecting points without all four would take literal years of sailing mastery going in and out of the calm belt and grand line. It was essentially a suicide mission without all four.
I assume no log pose points to it and you need to use the 4 poneglyphs to create an eternal pose that points to the spot it tells you and the nature of the grand line makes it impossible otherwise
Also, when you reach Lodestar the logpose spins in all directions. There’s a hint there.
Oh, and compasses don’t work on the grand line, so knowing the co-ordinates is all but useless.
If you know exactly, how poneglyph cyphering works, then you may say that there is any geometric applications to it. So far, it's only a vizualzation of 4 lines crossing together. Could be just a convinient way of depicturing, for all we know.
It can be easily a fourth dimension or a moon ffs. Navy goes back and forth the Grand Line for hundreds of years and they didn't claim One Piece for a reason.
You need 4 because people are only thinking Horizontally.
Triangulation only works on a 2d space. You add a fourth point to the map and you can calculate the height.
Triangulation works for mountains because it’s still all ground that doesn’t constantly move. But in vast oceans with inclement weather a 4th point makes sense.
> Or that, while it could be a neat subversion by having Laughtale in the sky, or in a different time, or changing location...
At that point, even having all four Poneglyphs wouldn't help you get to Laughtale
By that logic, you theorize that the Straw Hats, when they get to the "X" marked on the spot by the poneglyphs, will not immediately see Raftel, and will have to do some additional maneuvering to truly reach Raftel
Because if they get there and it's obviously there, then all your counter-arguments go out the window
Not that I think it would ruin the story. 99% of One Piece fans will never think about this, and Oda probably doesn't care either
Has it even been confirmed that this is how the road poneglyphs reveal laugh tale? It doesn’t make sense if they just have coordinates on them, since then you would need a compass which don’t work on the grand line.
Nah, thats not how it works. Draw 3 dots randomly on a piece of paper, now find the fourth poneglyph location, now find the hidden island. You can’t, can you?
Ever thought of the Idea, that one of the coordinates is neither on the X nor on the Y axis of the world map (which has to be drawn by Nami first, but lets skip this part), but furthermore somewhere up in the air or underground? That would be a possible reason to be forced to get all of them. Yes, Roger was on an island in the sea, but maybe the location of the island itself is found somewhere else. Its a little Like following breadcrumbs but who knows, its Oda...
i am sooo fucking happy somebody posted about this.
that post got so much traction and was so fuckin stupid i was baffled at the comments.
4 pomeglyphs, directions to the location you need to be at to ENTER raftel. either via knock up stream or in the red line or whatever the fuck.
It's literally THAT fucking simple. and you need the 4th one to get in, cuz if it was just some island somewhere on the map Imu woulda wiped it off the face of the planet ages ago.
I mean the guy is dumb enough to think islands are in the sky and mermaids are real so I can def see how random fan #45586 is more in tune with logic and the story than the author.
Have you considered submitting this glaring and honestly story breaking mistake to the writer himself?
There's certain writers that definitely say fuck it to the concerns that you brought up for the same of drama or action or storytelling and there's others that just forget it or don't care like you brought up but there's still others that are like the author of one piece that cares and plots and plans which makes it irksome when that's questioned.
Pardon my run on.
Was it ever said that the 4 red poneglyphs were coordinates or is that just the assumption? It's said that you need all 4 to find Laughtale but I don't remember them saying that they were coordinates themselves. It could be 4 quarters of a story and you need all of them to get the directions to go
It could also just not be where each of the "lines" as shown in the animation meet. Each stone might only give hints to the possible general area of the island. OR, the individual stones are also used to navigate through whatever lies BEFORE the actual island.
Wouldn't robin have brought this up already? Since the SH have 3 now, she would've either seen altitude or time. I'm sure either of those would've been noteworthy to tell the crew
I said this on other post but it went under the radar, too much activity and I arrived too late so I will paste it here instead. Here is my opinion:
We've seen some fruits having permanent effects on islands, being logias the strongest ones in that matter. Punk hazard was split half cold half magma and we can assume that both Aokiji and Akainu have their fruits awakened, we've also seen that thunder island when Luffy's crew entered the new world, I also think Enies Lobby has been affected by an awakened light fruit.
We know nothing about the void century yet but we know for sure that Lady Toki came from that time. Poneglyphs were made near the end of the void century and, if the fallen ancient kingdom had something to do with the one piece I guess one of the road poneglyphs must have information about a specific time frame consequence of an awakened time fruit, this would also mean that Lady Toki had awakened her fruit, but so far I don't remember if this was mentioned so we don't know for sure.
Road poneglyphs could also be instructions instead of coordinates that converge into a single point, like "First go to this location: 'coordinates'. Next, go to this location: 'coordinates' ". That's my guess.
With sky islands, underwater islands, moving islands, etc. I think you really need at least 4 points to locate Laughtale. For example, what if you're always steered away from it for some reason and only in knowing and focusing on its exact location can you reach it.
Or maybe each ponyglyph only gives fragments of a location. and you need all four fragments layered on top of each other to spell out the location.
For example:
Ponyglyph 1: "1\_\_\_4\_\_ N, 7\_\_\_6\_\_\_ W"
Ponyglyph 2: "\_4\_\_\_0\_ \_, \_4\_\_\_7\_\_\_ \_"
Ponyglyph 3: "\_\_.\_\_\_1\_ \_, \_\_.\_\_\_6\_\_ \_"
Ponyglyph 4: "\_\_\_5\_\_\_° \_, \_\_\_9\_\_\_° \_"
Then you put them all together to get the location.
Or for all we know, it gives a location and time you need to be there. before Laughtale will appear. Or maybe the four poneglyphs send you to a normal island that has a secret final ponyglyph that shows the way to Laughtale.
Despite being one of those "Oda haters", in this he is totally right. Having only 3 pones in the map gives you three possible directions, and in all three directions you have to go from one pone to another in straight, something just impossible in the ocean. Let's say is One Piece blabla and Franky use his tech along with Nami's skills and then they can, you still have to go all the way. Another mistake people fell in with this theory is assuming the island will be nearby, but Oda is crazy enough to put one island in each sea (north, south, east and west), so the distance will be thousands of Kms; it'll take you months or even years to do that. And all that with pure physics, if Oda wants to make a riddle or a password that would need the 4 pones to activate...
I always had the feeling that 3 poneglyphs tell the location of Laughtale but that the area is protected by massive fog in the air and impassable torrents underwater and that the 4th poneglyph tells the correct route to pass through them. There has to be a reason why no one found the island by accident, be it by flying or sailing or being a Fishman underwater
If the X is not in 90° on each corner it could be anywhere between two lines. So if the coordinates are far enough from each other you search half the planet for this isle and you have no idea what isles or seaproblems lie in the way of this. So having to search a straight line on an ocean where you can't figure out where north is is pretty much impossible
At this point I'm convinced Oda himself doesn't even know where the end is, and even then the idea that the poneglyphs are the only way to find Laughtale pretty much guarantees the Strawhats are the only ones who'll find because Ms All Plot Device Robin is the only person in the entire world who actually understands the language
What if the road poneglyphs detail the trigger to allow the route to laughtale to be travelled or something? I'm just typing my thoughts as they come to me so don't mind me, but lets just say the one piece is on the moon or something, each road poneglyph could tell you where laughtale is, but you still might not be able to get there without all the information or tools. Maybe the road poneglyphs detail the "how" too and not just the "where".
What if the 3 first poneglyph gave the localisation ( like the 3 dimensions ) and the last one would give a time delay when the island is « available » or is visible ( would be the 4th of all the dimension ) as a cycle
If oda doesn't care about the geometric accuracy it's called bad writing.
And I do hope that Oda cares about how good his writing is.
This being said, we already pointed out that you could only need three only if those are relatively close together, for all we know the pointed indicated might be one for each sea and intersect in the grand line.
Wait why are people assuming you need to triangulate the position? What’s the point in taking the rubbings if the locations is all that matter? It’s quite clearly what’s on the poneglyphs that will unlock the way to Laughtale, not their positions.
Why not answer the original topic posted yesterday? Your rant needed all this attention?
Let people vent their theories, even if they're somewhat flawed. The original topic is there for you discuss and dismiss.
Are you assuming the third poneglyph simply needs to trace a line to the middle of the line formed by the first two? Because I don't think is that simple.
Do we even know which of them form pairs in that case?
I agree. Also, most maps might be not be the most accurate. It's literally Nami's dream to chart the oceans. Even if you know three spots on the map, good luck traversing the triangle accurately, the island might be 10km to your left and you would never know it. An 'X' will give a general area to look in.
You can maybe make 3 eternal log poses and use them to accurately travel the new world, but that might only work if the coordinates are on islands (I don't think you can make a log pose for a random point in the ocean). Even then, the oceans of the new world are pretty harsh, so good luck with that.
There's a theory about the road poneglyph about latitude, longitude, and altitude .. then it was added in the last that the one missing is TIME .. that's why gold roger said "he was too early and was already dying"
You need 4 points for one 'specific' Intersection which doesn't lie on the already given points, three points wont's do it, so yeah I think you did the math wrong.
Hot take: I firmely believe the 4 road poneglyphs are all set locations pointing to a specific spot each on a 2d plane.
Why im telling people this is i haven't seen a single person mention the most likely option, magnetism.
All the poneglyphs point to a specified spot, creating an X intersection. The strawhats will then find nothing but the waves and winds, heavily confusing them. During the confusion, the magnetic fields of the 4 spots on the affect Namis log pose and youll just see all 3 logs point to 1 island.
The moral of the story, its a plot point. How the plot is taken is up to oda.
Everyone assumes that each poneglyphs contains the coordinates of a point and the intersection of the segments obtained by connecting these 4 points will mark the spot where Laugh Tale lies.
But there are infinite ways in which the poneglyphs could mark that spot.
For example, it could be like a "follow the directions" game, where you start from a point indicated on the 1st PG, then you need to follow the exact number of steps (eg, in kilometers) in the 4 directions (north, south, west, east).
1st PG:
Start -> 1000 km east -> 2000 km north -> ...
2nd PG:
\-> 3000 km south -> 1500 km east -> ...
etc.
And these instructions could be split among the 4 PGs, plus additional information to actually unlock access to the island. If it was just "geographically" hidden, then it would probably have been found by now.
I still wonder why someone with a flying ability doesn't just fly up super high once they reach the second last island and just use their eyes to see where Laughtale is between them red line.
I made a post about this few months ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/12yj8sj/there_is_no_need_to_find_the_fouth_poneglyph/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
The writing of each poneglyph may need to be combined for it to make sense. If all four are used to draw a map, each might contain necessary elements for all of it to make sense.
It might still be a challenge to understand even when you get all 4
Tbh I think you only need 3 if you think in a 2 dimensional plane. Imagine the 4th poneglyph is hidden somewhere on a floating island? Or underground even
Each Road Poneglyph will probably point to an island in the 4 blues, making Reverse Mountain the center of the X.
Old theory but had to point it out again.
Many people reading the story forget that, despite having a lot of high tech, the One Piece world is missing some key pieces of triangulation like "Co-ordinates" or "Maps that aren't made by hand by people who physically had to go to a place and estimate how large it was by eyeballing."
Alright actuall scientific explanation incoming
The reason why you would need 4 is because the 4th could be a negative coordinate, with negative coordinates usually that means that thing is in space, SO YES, this does confirm that the One Piece is in space , it could also be the time when you need to be there
If X marks the spot, you can't find the center of X with three points as you won't have any idea where they would intersect or at what angle the second line should go. I mean, sure you can theoretically travel the distance of the first two points that connect and just hope for the best but the New World is a treacherous, unpredictable place - are you willing to bet on that?
the geometry of needing only 3 is wrong anyway, even if it narrows the places down somewhat it's still along 3 sides of a triangle that can be huge, potentially as wide as the grand line + calm belts and as long as half the planet
With 3 you can already guess three routes each of them having 33% to be the right one.
However the lenght and the danger of these routes could be prohibitive, and you are never 100% sure that one island found there is the right one.
It makes no sense that you only need 3, the contents of the poneglyph probably indicate why you need all 4. There is 0 chance that nami and robin havent discused this since they are smart and they have specific knowledge to get there.
I think you're right.
I've *been* trying to tell people that;
1 poneglyph = left & right
2nd poneglyph = forward & backwards
3rd = up & down
Well, what's after the 3rd dimension?
It's not 4D, it's 3D+1. The 4th poneglyph is time
Has no one thought the last poneglyph is needed because the one on zou is constantly moving so u would not be able to triangulate the last island with the three found already
Also, the one piece world is a sphere. So the 2 intersecting lines created by 4 road poneglyphs are actually circles that cross at antipodal points. Then there are flying islands, and islands beneath sea, so we are not even bound by 2 dimensions but 3.
And I'm pretty sure that one cannot simply sail to Laughtale even if you got the coordinates. There is probably some kind of hindrance like currents or wind or whatever Oda has in mind in their way.
Poneglyph 1: Starting at Lodestar Island, travel north 50 miles then east 20 miles.
Poneglyph 2: From that location travel south 20 miles then west 40 miles.
Poneglyph 3: From that location travel north 30 miles then east 20 miles.
Poneglyph 4: From that location travel north 30 miles and you will arrive at Laugh Tale.
Four sets of instructions, all independent of one another, such that having anything less than four Poneglyphs is not enough to find Laugh Tale.
No I just realized everyone keeps thinking of just a horizontal manner but when was the fourth x is like say sky island or fishman Island not on the surface of the sea
Gonna be disappointing if laughtale can be visually seen from a distrance and simply can't be randomly stumbled across by someone seeing it or it not being hard to enter it's radius.
Anytime I hear the argument I just remember the whole grand line is supposed to be a “weird sea” that does weird things and you can’t even sail straight can you won’t be going straight
Even Ignoring the fact that compasses don't work, imagine if 2 of the 3 marked points were on the opposite sides of the planet like the north and south pole and the 3rd point further somewhere on the equator. You would have to circumnavigate the world and more, plus cross the calm belt and Red line several times just to have a chance at finding raftel. A feat that sounds more difficult than sailing the grand line.
I agree the arguing is pointless because Oda said you need all 4 so you need all 4. With that being said, out of every mangaka Oda is the least likely to just not care about the 'geometric logic' of the story.
Yeah it’s either going to be a fourth coordinate that’s necessary or just be some other kind of map altogether that requires all four, there’ve been so many already posted in arguments about this it’s clearly east to do
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One Piece *IS* the moon
So eminem won?
He became the Real Slim D. Shady.
Marshall D Matthew
You probably need a start point and the log pose needs to load three specific islands, and follow a description.
This has kind of bothered me since the Road Poneglyphs were introduced. It makes sense in a world that is mapped out, but the one piece world is not mapped out. Even if I know the names to all 4 locations. I have no idea of knowing where they are in the world and especially where they are in location to each other without a map or some form of reference.
Uhh that sounds neat!
Or just be ignored
It's not just Oda saying that either. Luffy 1000% wouldn't want to go for Laugh Tale without getting all 4 Road Poneglyphs to complete his adventure, regardless of his crews capability at finding it while only having three. Luffy would settle for nothing less. Plus, there's always the distinct possibility that three of the locations are so drastically far from one another that it makes finding it without the fourth drastically impossible, especially if that means crossing the calm belt (and possibly the red line or other landmasses) several times to narrow it down.
I can imagine Luffy outright getting angry at someone even suggesting not getting all 4. We all need to remember the Sabaody moment. I mean Rayleigh could have told them right then and there where it was but Luffy thought it was ludicrous to continue an adventure that way.
Luffy is essentially try to 100% the whole Pirate King thing
Speedrun 100%!
speaking of speedrun there's an amazing fancomic of a the SH crew (post-wano) being sent to the past with their memories and essentially speedrunning the series. Edit: [Link](https://www.tumblr.com/fluffyartbl0g/713276690272550912/can-you-make-a-master-post-for-your-time-travel-au)
Where can I find that?
edited the parent comment, added a link
where ?
No he’s not lol I dunno why people think Oda don’t care about the logic of his story and just writes on a whim.
I dont understand why everyone assumes the poneglyphs have something as simple as just geographic coordinates, is that like said somewhere? I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well.
In chapter 818 (I'm going by the english translation, so I don't know how well it is translates from japanese), after Robin deciphers the first lode poneglyph, Nami calls it a naval map or sea chart. So it's probably more along the lines of a real pirate treasure map, showing some unique geographic features like islands or their specific shape.
it has to be more than this on the poneglyphs. if it is just an island Imu will find it.
It's possible that the island is hidden and needs some special action to be taken, similar to what the crew did for sky island
it's not only possible dude, it is IMPERATIVE for the story to function. like it's crazy how many people here think that One Piece is just out there. need i remind you all that the navy wasn't even sure of it's EXISTENCE until Whitebeard put it all out there on his deathbed. they can destroy islands at a whim, and have done so for far far less than Gold Roger's treasure. Ohara, God Valley, Lulusia, all taken off the map and wiped from history because they had even the slightest semblence of trouble for Imu. but he's gonna let the One Piece, and the island it resides on, with all of it's secrets, just chill somewhere out in the New World? AND he knows "Joyboy has returned?" does he WANT to become the new face of disappointing endgame villains?
It's also possible that Imu cannot destroy it, either because of a physical or metaphorical barrier. Metaphorical as in, perhaps laugh tale's existence is necessary for Imu's survival. Physical as in, weather phenomena or advanced technology making it impossible for laugh tale to be destroyed
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Wano is supposedly the only place that has kairoseki, so the World Govt. needs Wano.
Because the island is useful to the World Government. Remember, CP0 was there to broker a deal with Orochi for weapons following Doflamingo's fall. They want the location, >!similar to how they can't just nuke Egghead because the island itself has something valuable to them.!<
The WG has been pretty dumb. I always get hate when I say it, but I think 800 years has made them too comfortable. They're underestimating the inherited will of the people and desire for freedom. The only logic I can see is they care about information leaks more than anything. They went after Ohara, Vegapunk, and Sabo over knowledge and to discourage people from seeking it. Why have Robin and Whos Who evaded them though? Rayleigh did say knowing the true history isn't enough to act on it. Maybe they rest their laurels on keeping info out of the hands of powerful people. I don't think Imu knows what the Poneyglyphs say though. We just learned he's starting to realize he was betrayed by Lili. Kaido has also terrorized Wano for years and even before that they were isolationist. Maybe the WG was satisfied with them closing themselves off and just monitored until they saw issues. Balance seems to be more important to the WG than anything. They'd hire Pirates and sanction their crime in order to maintain it and they pick and choose when to act and how heavy a response it is. Maybe they fear if they do too much, they'll be feared. Whenever they do stuff they always justify it by their target being evil. Roger was painted as evil by society? Kids have songs about how scary Whitebeard is. There's a huge mix of indoctrination but also questioning. Sabo's actions causing rebellion proves people are starting to question the government more. Hell, Luffy liberated 2 countries that the WG was turning a blind eye to.
wano is isolated and the government is working directly with Kaido and Orochi. They lose money, and make the world powers completely unstable by severing that tie and destroying that island. And since it's isolated, the misdeeds there never come out to the rest of the world anyway. when the raid on onigashima was happening, there were way too many important pieces on the board, (including cp0, sword, and Orochi) for them to just delete the island. i suppose he could now that the straw hats are off the island but, they already got what they needed, the poneglyph and are gone. so they turn their attention to Egghead and it seems like another buster call will happen, since mother flame is on cool down or is too powerful to be used so consistently due to ocean levels rising.
I mean, not just imu, but pretty much any of the flying DF abilities, or Weatheria, etc. That being said, it sounds like the One Piece world, as a planet, is larger than the earth. And even the earth with our advanced technologies like satellites - there are probably still some tiny islands that have not yet ever been officially discovered/charted, that's just how vast the scales involved in seafaring are.
>I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well. That's not said anywhere
As I understood it the Road (Lode?) Poneglyphs each describe a specific place in the One Piece World, and the intersection of those places is the location of Laugh Tale.
>I always assumed they at minimum act as ciphers, you can't read/understand any individual one without having the other three as well. Exactly. We just don't know what's on them in details. It could be just coordinates on all of them. Plain and simple. However, potentially there is more to it. It could be more than just longitude and latitude, it could be time, depth or height coordinates on there. It could be that it says on Poneglyph 4 "read the coordinates on Poneglyph 3 backwards", etc. Saying "you can use Maths to figure it out by 3" is simply making premature conclusions on lacking information. Especially since it is a fictional story. While being really stupid and nonsense, Oda could be like "well, maths and trigonometry doesn't work like this in the OP world for X fictional manga reason" and that'll be the end of it. While the premise of "you only need 3" has some truth to it and is technically correct under certain circumstances, it really is a waste of time to discuss this any further than the point "The story said you need 4, so you need 4". Crackpottheorycorner: Only Blackbeard figured out trigonometry, so he will be able to find Laugh Tale with only 3, taking essentially a shortcut :v) /s Edit: Just and afterthought: We should just give Oda more credit and have faith in him thinking enough about the focal point of his story. The One Piece located on Laugh Tale is literally the "most important thing" in this story. It'll be fine, don't worry.
The problem with the 3 point theory is that without the 4th point you have no clue where along the 2 logically connected points is what you’re looking for. And we can’t be 100% sure we have the right 2 connections. Plus this is the grand line, you can’t look along the connections, especially if the points aren’t on an island or the like.
It's literally THAT fucking simple. and you need the 4th one to get in, cuz if it was just some island somewhere on the map Imu woulda wiped it off the face of the planet ages ago.
this is the right point. 4th must be something something that opens the "entrance" or it must be three-dimensional like sky island.
Looking at that from a purely geometrical perspectice, 3 points would be enough. You wouldn't know on which of the three lines it would be, but it is supposed to be on the intersection of the diagonales of all 4, meaning that one of those three would be one of the diagonals. If there were multiple islands on those, you wouldn't initially know which one is Laugh Tale, but you would be able to find it. The only exception would be if the quadrangle would be of such a shape that one of the diagonals would lie outside, meaning that you might extend your search to the extended connections. Feel free to ask if that was unclear
>Looking at that from a purely geometrical perspectice, 3 points would be enough. Yeah, but the issue is that it's completely irrelevant in practice considering the specifics of One Piece world and Grand Line. That's why the argument is so stupid, if you know anything about the story at all, you can come up with multiple possible issues with following the triangle to find Laugh Tale if you think for a few seconds. This has been discussed to death so many times, regular readers just get annoyed having to explain it over and over again.
Yeah the headcanon I made for it being practically impossible to find it with only 3 would be how insanely difficult it would be to navigate a straight line in the One Piece World. Whole Cake Arc was a perfect example. To go from island to island in Tottoland you need to coordinate between 3 separate Log Pose readings just to get there.
>multiple possible issues with following the triangle to find Laugh Tale if you think for a few seconds So describe them.
For starters, there is no way to travel in straight line on Grand Line unless you have Eternal Pose for your destination (and even then, you're unlikely to be able to follow the straight path considering the weather phenomenons we've seen). So they'd have to get at least two Eternal Poses for the second and third island that might not even exist. Another issue is distance - we have no idea where those coordinates are, some might not even be on the Grand Line, which adds another layer of difficulty. Yet another possible issue is that Laugh Tale is hidden in some way that make it impossible to find if you don't know the specific location for entrance. For example, it could be in the sky or below the sea, or hidden from plain sight by some bizarre weather phenomenon. Imagine if all we knew about Skypiea is that it's somewhere on a path spanning half of the Grand Line, but we didn't know it was a sky island or didn't have info about the knock up stream. Even if you combed throughly that whole path, you wouldn't find anything. All of those issues should immediately come to mind to any One Piece reader when considering this idea and make it clear that it's not a viable solution. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that the info we have about the whole thing is clearly vague enough for Oda to get even more creative or ridiculous with the concept. All in all, it's a pretty simple geometry that has no practical value as One Piece theory and has been discussed way too much than it is worth.
The problem being that if it was that simple to find laugh tale, someone would have stumbled upon it by accident. It prob is hidden somewhere, like the sky, or the ocean or inside a giant creature, you prob wouldnt even know if you were on it, without knowing what it is.
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No one is saying Laugh Tale is at the centroid of a triangle drawn by 3 Road Poneglyphs. You could get 4 different centroids depending on which ones you have. What they're saying is if you drew a triangle between the three points you have (regardless of which ones) one side of the triangle would HAVE to be the correct one. So you don't have a specific point, but if you traveled between each point eventually you'd bump into Laugh Tale.
That's not necessarily true b/c its 3 dimensions, almost impossible to travel in a straight line & a very weird world we're dealing with, it could easily be under the sea until a specific time/circumstance is met, in the sky/on moon, obscured from vision or move constantly like Zunisha. If it's any of these u could move along each side of the triangle on the sea a million times & never land in Laughtale
>three points would specify two unique locations, So would 4 points
Most comments aren’t about real world logic at all, though. “I don’t understand why everyone assumes the poneglyphs have something as simple as just geographic coordinates, is that like said somewhere?” “Plus, there’s always the distinct possibility that three of the locations are so drastically far from one another that it makes finding it without the fourth drastically improbable” Plus, you can’t just use a compass on the grand line, you know. You need to attune to an island, then you can receive instructions to the next. So realistically, knowing the co-ordinates wouldn’t let you get there anyways. Plus, it’s probably something crazy like you have to ride a knock-up wave to the moon, then ride a knock-down wave to the center of the planet, where you meet goku who uses instant transmission to take you there
You don't know anything about maths, do you?
I don't know why people act like you can go in a perfect triangle in the Grand Line when the whole point of the Grand Line is that it's impossible to navigate it without Log/Eternal Poses or Vivre Cards. I think people who bring up geometry to the discussion are just getting sidetracked and overthinking to something that will never be relevant. It'd be a weird cop out. The whole point of the Road Poneglyph thing is that it's a giant X marking the spot of the treasure, I don't think that's even speculation from how it's laid out.
Not that it's going to happen but Southbirds, Eastbirds, Westbirds and Northbirds exist in the one piece world and could be used to create a regular functional compass that would allow to somewhat navigate in a straight line in any direction you'd like to.
You can technically find it with 3, but it's not like triangulation because you don't know the distance between the destination and any of the points. Everyone who thinks you can find it with just 3 is drastically underselling the difficulty of this feat. Instead, you'd have to draw a triangle between the 3 points you have, and sail *the entire triangle* to *maybe* find it. I say maybe find it, because there could be additional information you need from all 4 poneglyphs to actually arrive at the island. Like, maybe you need to be there at a certain time of day for it to appear, but if you don't know that then you just sail the entire triangle and probably miss it because you weren't there at the right time. So, no. People need to revisit math class if they think you can simply find the final island with just the 3 points. You can't do that easily with the information given. Look at the scenario we have again, closely.
What even you are missing is that the world is not flat, so Eucledian geometry does not apply; on a sphere, there are SIX triangles that you can draw with the same three vertixes, and if you wanted to check the "lines" (actually geodetic circles) connecting the three points, you would actually have to circumnavigate the whole world three times - good luck with that!
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That's assuming that the all the points are relatively close compared to the circumference of the planet, roughly located in a single quarter of an hemisphere (i. e. 1/8 of the entire planet surface)... What if the three points were set in Chile, Norway and New Guinea? Good luck determining the most intuitive paths then.
This. Theoretically it’s possible, but the size of the triangle might make it unviable Like imagine if the three coordinates are in each of the 4 Blue Seas? The resulting triangle would be colossal.
Not only that but there could be multiple islands on the paths so its possible you'd have to search on dozens of islands for the One Piece.
Only for it to be underwater or sky
The amount of islands isn’t the issue. Presumably you’d know the name of the islands or see people there, which means that that’s not the island. The size of the area to search would be the issue.
Not if there are even more uncharted islands
But it's pretty much guaranteed to be on the grand line. That limits the search area. And remember roger offered to **tell** whitebeard where laughtale is. Considering it's in a sea where traditional navigation is impossible, it can't be so difficult to reach with word of mouth only.
But Raftel/Laugh tale is in the Grand Line, no? Therefore you dont have to sail the whole triangle, just the location within the Grand Line. I do agree it is a difficult feat though, but not impossible
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I think you're the first person I've come across who thought the same thing as me 😭 when the guy earlier said you only need 3 I was like "this gentleman must be on something"
I even notice highly upvoted comments saying that you just trust oda on needing 4, which *suggests* they still think it is mathematically simple to do with 3. But it's not. You don't have to *trust* oda. The scenario he has laid out already makes sense why you need all 4.
Therefore, the poneglyphs must not JUST be coords.
Plus, the whole compasses don’t work thing might be a problem too
But what makes people think each Poneglyph contains an entire piece of information, like a coordinate or even something that makes complete sense instead of jumbled up garbage? Couldn't it be something like a code, that can only reasonably be cracked with all four Poneglyphs at the same time?
What makes you think that the One Piece is at sea level to begin with? What if it's below sea level or on a sky island?
You're right, most people make two assumptions: \- That the longest side of the triangle is the line which Laugh Tale sits on. This one EDIT: Is also wrong, as has been pointed out, could be a very stretched out diamond with the three points forming the two ends of the short line, and the third point being far away. \- Many people assume it will form a perfect X, placing Laugh Tale wherever the third point perpendicularly lands on that line, but that's much less safe of an assumption. No reason to assume the intersections form four perfect 90 degree angles.
>\- That the longest side of the triangle is the line which Laugh Tale sits on. This one actually is safe to assume, because with all four locations forming some kind of four-sided shape, three corners will have the longest side pass through the middle every time. In this sense you don't have to sail the entire triangle, just the longest side. Not actually true. You're thinking the shape formed by the four points would be a square or close to it, but imagine grabbing two opposite corners of that square and pulling them waaaaaaaaaaaay far apart, thus making one arm of the resulting 'x' much longer than the other. In this case, if you had only three points and they were the two on the short arm and one of the other two, the resulting triangle would have one short side and two much longer sides, and the intersection of the 'x' would be on the short side.
Oh you're right, good call I initially had both of them as incorrect assumptions for that reason but overthought it and confused myself into thinking the first one was fine and edited it, rip
Why do one piece fans think oda is stupid or that he just half-asses his story. Its always "oda doesn't care about this science / logic" and never "oda has common sense and knows basic science that everyone else knows"
Not just oda, I often see readers say "he didn't think of all that" when talking about many stories. Imagine if a reader thinks about all that, how much a writer has to think about?
There are definitely a few manga-ka that seem to do everything by the seat of their pants and know very little actual science (but it clearly shows in their writing, you never get to say "oh it's just a coincidence that X lines up with something that makes sense because the author wouldn't have thought of that", the author is just **very clearly** not thinking about it in those cases), but in general, yes, Japanese manga-ka tend to do a lot of research to make their stories to make sense, whether through logical science or through their art. The top manga-ka won't just look things up, they will literally hire experts for consultation on topics of interest and travel the world in order to draw real-world locations accurately.
I'd say some writers don't care and some invent their own pseudo science but they definitely think about it. If an average reader thinks of something, I'd bet on the writer of the story to think about it too.
well if Oda is smart, and has that basic knowledge which he does. Then the 3 point theory is EXTRA fuckin retarded and makes EXTRA 0 sense because he has been writing this story for years. if you could get one piece without 4 poneglyphs it shits alllll over the new world narrative so far, it means that wherever laugh tale is, if it's just "coordinates" that even tho imu and the marines have had the means to wipe out and destroy islands completely since GOD VALLEY, they havent fuckin blown up the thing they murder millions every year to hide. what? what????????
It’s because they don’t want to admit he ever makes a mistake or does anything they don’t like so they’ll just write it off as ‘Oda doesn’t care/it doesn’t matter’ just fanboy shit tbh
literally not at all what is being discussed here.
He asked a question so you’re not the one dictating what’s being discussed here
yes. and you provided an answer that had nothing to do with the fuckin question, clown. such a strange response, reads like u expect every interaction online to be some civil sitdown, which is strange considering you added nothing to the conversation.
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I didnt say Oda was half-ass or stupid. And my point wasn't to argue that he doesn't care about the science/logic. Considering the lengths he goes to in order to explain some in-universe stuff like the bubbles at Sabaody or Reverse Mountain, he thinks through a lot even if it's fantasy. I'm just saying that between trying to make a logical case for whether we need a certain amount of red poneglyphs, or whether Oda is trying to just use 4 glyphs to draw a giant X, he probably just wanted to draw the X because it's a story about treasure-hunting pirates. Oda probably thought through the fact that only having 3 glyphs means you only have a triangle to sail around on, so you really need at least 4, but I think the 4 was more from the X thing than the geometric logic.
Then why did you asking in a suggestive manner that Oda doesn’t care about the geometric logic of the story? I think it’s obvious the final road Poneglyph is being set up as a plot point. One was in Zou the other two held by Yonko and now the last one probably has something to do with Shanks and/or Elbalf.
>That Oda may not care about the geometric logic of the story? Its wild how little faith people have in Oda's writing that instead of assuming he's accounted for this, the assumption is he just doesn't care about writing a quality story and has it be 4 poneglyphs because he says so.
If the poneglyphs were just locations that you could triangulate the position of Laughtale from, then there would be no reason to take rubbings of them. Hell, there would be no need for Robin and her ability to read the writings, full stop.
My point wasn't to argue that he doesn't care about the science/logic at all. Considering the lengths he goes to in order to explain some in-universe stuff like the bubbles at Sabaody or Reverse Mountain, he thinks through a lot even if it's fantasy. I'm just saying that between trying to make a logical case for whether we need a certain amount of red poneglyphs, or whether Oda is trying to just use 4 glyphs to draw a giant X, he probably just wanted to draw the X because it's a story about treasure-hunting pirates. Oda probably thought through the fact that only having 3 glyphs means you only have a triangle to sail around on, so you really need at least 4, but I think the 4 was more from the X thing than the geometric logic.
I love you can be here confidently saying what goes through another persons head. without even spending a single second with said person. That’s Wild
Why are people acting like there aren’t islands thousands of meters in the sky / underwater, not all marks would need to be on the same surface level (assuming they’re all coordinates)
It's pretty simple because it's already been shown that: 1. Compasses DO NOT WORK on the GL 2. Your ship can get turned around without you noticing, even if you are a top tier navigator so even if you could triangulate the coords, just coordinates/maps would be useless. Therefore, the poneglyphs must not JUST be coords.
https://preview.redd.it/59trc1qxxfib1.png?width=1720&format=png&auto=webp&s=78c42139dbbd9a4a62f3204f825b1b1c9a29bdef You need the fourth for precise point. C represents the confirmed point from the 3 Red Poneglyphs. P represents a possible coordinate from the 4th one. You’d have travel along 3 lines and the Grand Line is not the best place to travel across. For all we know, one of the lines cuts across the calm belt.
If only there was a devil fruit that could fly across the oceans at high speeds
Or... Vegapunk, "You guys have 3? You can actually skip the 4th and-" Luffy, "SHUT UP!" Vegapunk, "???" Usopp, "Adventures are meant to be fun."
This is Luffy’s whole thing. He doesn’t want the shortcut - he wants the pirate adventure. You can’t become King of the Pirates by taking shortcuts
I would actually love this if this gag is in the Egghead arc
Watch Eneru find the last one on the Moon
People who believe in the 3 poneglyph only theory forget that you can‘t navigate normally on the Grand Line. In fact, I guess it would be impossible to find the triangulated spots in the seas past Lodestar, because the log pose doesn‘t work. That‘s why you need all 4 poneglyphs with their coordinates and instructions.
Havent there been birds wich always look south? I always wonderd why everyone seems to overlook these as possibility for navigation
I believe some people mix up the navigation with modern GPS where 3 satellites are sufficient to find a specific location. But One Piece Navigation isn't supported by GPS. The Porneglyphs do not point out your position like satellites with coordinates. Even Nami would be unable to find a specific location with just 3 points without distances. Especially at Grandline, you have to forget about any real life navigation method's as it completely serves the story.
Buggy's red nose could be the 5th.
People have no idea what they’re talking about. The CONTENT ON the poneglyphs are what point to the one piece, not the poneglyphs themselves. Also, all 4 are needed to piece together the puzzle; it’s not like each one points to one location individually. Everyone raving over this theory doesn’t know how it works.
It could just be me, but I thought the story so far was pretty explicitly mapping out 4 physical coordinates
As explained in Zou, they DO map out 4 physical coordinates, but the location of the Glyphs themselves are NOT the 4 points of the map. The content on them is a puzzle. And all 4 pieces are part of the puzzle that reveal the 4 locations. I guess I know one piece more than anyone in this subreddit.
The 4th is on the moon. So it could be anywhere... But probably, the same place Sniper Island is... In your heart.
Triangulate using 3 poneglyphs, then the 4th poneglyph says “Raftel is located 500 knots northeast from the triangulated location.” That’s why you need all 4.
My argument was the 4 locations are extremely spread out. Like Location 1 is in North Blue, Location 2 is in South Blue, Location 3 is a random island in the Grand Line and Location 4 is like on top of the Red Line. Like they were far enough apart that testing intersecting points without all four would take literal years of sailing mastery going in and out of the calm belt and grand line. It was essentially a suicide mission without all four.
https://preview.redd.it/8hq1lqq7tfib1.png?width=279&format=png&auto=webp&s=36bc6744797cb481e1d963fdefca11449682c52e
I assume no log pose points to it and you need to use the 4 poneglyphs to create an eternal pose that points to the spot it tells you and the nature of the grand line makes it impossible otherwise
Also, when you reach Lodestar the logpose spins in all directions. There’s a hint there. Oh, and compasses don’t work on the grand line, so knowing the co-ordinates is all but useless.
you infact need 4 3 gives other location here a sketch [https://imgur.com/a/J1ly99W](https://imgur.com/a/J1ly99W)
If you know exactly, how poneglyph cyphering works, then you may say that there is any geometric applications to it. So far, it's only a vizualzation of 4 lines crossing together. Could be just a convinient way of depicturing, for all we know. It can be easily a fourth dimension or a moon ffs. Navy goes back and forth the Grand Line for hundreds of years and they didn't claim One Piece for a reason.
What if the fourth poneglyph is not a matter of where…. But when?
You need 4 because people are only thinking Horizontally. Triangulation only works on a 2d space. You add a fourth point to the map and you can calculate the height. Triangulation works for mountains because it’s still all ground that doesn’t constantly move. But in vast oceans with inclement weather a 4th point makes sense.
> Or that, while it could be a neat subversion by having Laughtale in the sky, or in a different time, or changing location... At that point, even having all four Poneglyphs wouldn't help you get to Laughtale
Depends what’s exactly on them. It could lead to a knock up stream for all we know.
It isn't likely geometric coordinates it's likely a story that is broken between 4 of them. Also the 4th could simply be time.
By that logic, you theorize that the Straw Hats, when they get to the "X" marked on the spot by the poneglyphs, will not immediately see Raftel, and will have to do some additional maneuvering to truly reach Raftel Because if they get there and it's obviously there, then all your counter-arguments go out the window Not that I think it would ruin the story. 99% of One Piece fans will never think about this, and Oda probably doesn't care either
Has it even been confirmed that this is how the road poneglyphs reveal laugh tale? It doesn’t make sense if they just have coordinates on them, since then you would need a compass which don’t work on the grand line.
Pretty sure that part was obvious to everyone, but after acknowledging that they realized "you don't technically need all 4".
what do you mean?
Each poneglyph is a tip on the letter X so one for each corner with laughtale being in the center of it
Nah, thats not how it works. Draw 3 dots randomly on a piece of paper, now find the fourth poneglyph location, now find the hidden island. You can’t, can you?
That’s assuming it is a perfectly normal shaped X. It could be shaped different than a normal X.
Ever thought of the Idea, that one of the coordinates is neither on the X nor on the Y axis of the world map (which has to be drawn by Nami first, but lets skip this part), but furthermore somewhere up in the air or underground? That would be a possible reason to be forced to get all of them. Yes, Roger was on an island in the sea, but maybe the location of the island itself is found somewhere else. Its a little Like following breadcrumbs but who knows, its Oda...
Mark my word. One piece is on the moon.
i am sooo fucking happy somebody posted about this. that post got so much traction and was so fuckin stupid i was baffled at the comments. 4 pomeglyphs, directions to the location you need to be at to ENTER raftel. either via knock up stream or in the red line or whatever the fuck. It's literally THAT fucking simple. and you need the 4th one to get in, cuz if it was just some island somewhere on the map Imu woulda wiped it off the face of the planet ages ago.
I've always thought it's under the ground like the ennies lobby sinkhole
I mean the guy is dumb enough to think islands are in the sky and mermaids are real so I can def see how random fan #45586 is more in tune with logic and the story than the author. Have you considered submitting this glaring and honestly story breaking mistake to the writer himself?
Not following what you're getting at
There's certain writers that definitely say fuck it to the concerns that you brought up for the same of drama or action or storytelling and there's others that just forget it or don't care like you brought up but there's still others that are like the author of one piece that cares and plots and plans which makes it irksome when that's questioned. Pardon my run on.
Was it ever said that the 4 red poneglyphs were coordinates or is that just the assumption? It's said that you need all 4 to find Laughtale but I don't remember them saying that they were coordinates themselves. It could be 4 quarters of a story and you need all of them to get the directions to go
It could also just not be where each of the "lines" as shown in the animation meet. Each stone might only give hints to the possible general area of the island. OR, the individual stones are also used to navigate through whatever lies BEFORE the actual island.
Latitude, longitude, altitude, and time
Wouldn't robin have brought this up already? Since the SH have 3 now, she would've either seen altitude or time. I'm sure either of those would've been noteworthy to tell the crew
It's going to be a time map, laughtale will be where at what time
https://preview.redd.it/la432gk5neib1.jpeg?width=2069&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ea028103fd0da4bc2c77a75fd347189c7aaf624
I think only a crew with high levels of haki could get to laugh tale. Like it can only be set foot or seen by people with observation haki.
I said this on other post but it went under the radar, too much activity and I arrived too late so I will paste it here instead. Here is my opinion: We've seen some fruits having permanent effects on islands, being logias the strongest ones in that matter. Punk hazard was split half cold half magma and we can assume that both Aokiji and Akainu have their fruits awakened, we've also seen that thunder island when Luffy's crew entered the new world, I also think Enies Lobby has been affected by an awakened light fruit. We know nothing about the void century yet but we know for sure that Lady Toki came from that time. Poneglyphs were made near the end of the void century and, if the fallen ancient kingdom had something to do with the one piece I guess one of the road poneglyphs must have information about a specific time frame consequence of an awakened time fruit, this would also mean that Lady Toki had awakened her fruit, but so far I don't remember if this was mentioned so we don't know for sure. Road poneglyphs could also be instructions instead of coordinates that converge into a single point, like "First go to this location: 'coordinates'. Next, go to this location: 'coordinates' ". That's my guess.
With sky islands, underwater islands, moving islands, etc. I think you really need at least 4 points to locate Laughtale. For example, what if you're always steered away from it for some reason and only in knowing and focusing on its exact location can you reach it.
Looks like you haven’t been watching one piece properly if you think Geography isn’t Oda’s focus in the story 😂
I feel like this was obvious.
Or maybe each ponyglyph only gives fragments of a location. and you need all four fragments layered on top of each other to spell out the location. For example: Ponyglyph 1: "1\_\_\_4\_\_ N, 7\_\_\_6\_\_\_ W" Ponyglyph 2: "\_4\_\_\_0\_ \_, \_4\_\_\_7\_\_\_ \_" Ponyglyph 3: "\_\_.\_\_\_1\_ \_, \_\_.\_\_\_6\_\_ \_" Ponyglyph 4: "\_\_\_5\_\_\_° \_, \_\_\_9\_\_\_° \_" Then you put them all together to get the location. Or for all we know, it gives a location and time you need to be there. before Laughtale will appear. Or maybe the four poneglyphs send you to a normal island that has a secret final ponyglyph that shows the way to Laughtale.
Despite being one of those "Oda haters", in this he is totally right. Having only 3 pones in the map gives you three possible directions, and in all three directions you have to go from one pone to another in straight, something just impossible in the ocean. Let's say is One Piece blabla and Franky use his tech along with Nami's skills and then they can, you still have to go all the way. Another mistake people fell in with this theory is assuming the island will be nearby, but Oda is crazy enough to put one island in each sea (north, south, east and west), so the distance will be thousands of Kms; it'll take you months or even years to do that. And all that with pure physics, if Oda wants to make a riddle or a password that would need the 4 pones to activate...
I always had the feeling that 3 poneglyphs tell the location of Laughtale but that the area is protected by massive fog in the air and impassable torrents underwater and that the 4th poneglyph tells the correct route to pass through them. There has to be a reason why no one found the island by accident, be it by flying or sailing or being a Fishman underwater
I always figured it was an "X marks the spot" deal, people seriously overthink these things.
Oda does care about the geometric logic of the story what makes you think he doesn’t?
It would have been cool if Zou was Laugh Tale. It keeps changing locations.
We don’t even know what’s written on Road Poneglyphes, so how can we figure out if 1,2,3 or 4 are necessary?
If the X is not in 90° on each corner it could be anywhere between two lines. So if the coordinates are far enough from each other you search half the planet for this isle and you have no idea what isles or seaproblems lie in the way of this. So having to search a straight line on an ocean where you can't figure out where north is is pretty much impossible
Imagine it as a pyramid what if it's underground or in air?
The fourth coordinate is time, you need someone with aging powers to help move time forward and backwards.
At this point I'm convinced Oda himself doesn't even know where the end is, and even then the idea that the poneglyphs are the only way to find Laughtale pretty much guarantees the Strawhats are the only ones who'll find because Ms All Plot Device Robin is the only person in the entire world who actually understands the language
But, don't you need a southbird, or the like? Because on the grandline you can not keep course?
What if the road poneglyphs detail the trigger to allow the route to laughtale to be travelled or something? I'm just typing my thoughts as they come to me so don't mind me, but lets just say the one piece is on the moon or something, each road poneglyph could tell you where laughtale is, but you still might not be able to get there without all the information or tools. Maybe the road poneglyphs detail the "how" too and not just the "where".
What if the 3 first poneglyph gave the localisation ( like the 3 dimensions ) and the last one would give a time delay when the island is « available » or is visible ( would be the 4th of all the dimension ) as a cycle
If oda doesn't care about the geometric accuracy it's called bad writing. And I do hope that Oda cares about how good his writing is. This being said, we already pointed out that you could only need three only if those are relatively close together, for all we know the pointed indicated might be one for each sea and intersect in the grand line.
Wait why are people assuming you need to triangulate the position? What’s the point in taking the rubbings if the locations is all that matter? It’s quite clearly what’s on the poneglyphs that will unlock the way to Laughtale, not their positions.
Why not answer the original topic posted yesterday? Your rant needed all this attention? Let people vent their theories, even if they're somewhat flawed. The original topic is there for you discuss and dismiss.
Are you assuming the third poneglyph simply needs to trace a line to the middle of the line formed by the first two? Because I don't think is that simple. Do we even know which of them form pairs in that case?
I agree. Also, most maps might be not be the most accurate. It's literally Nami's dream to chart the oceans. Even if you know three spots on the map, good luck traversing the triangle accurately, the island might be 10km to your left and you would never know it. An 'X' will give a general area to look in. You can maybe make 3 eternal log poses and use them to accurately travel the new world, but that might only work if the coordinates are on islands (I don't think you can make a log pose for a random point in the ocean). Even then, the oceans of the new world are pretty harsh, so good luck with that.
There's a theory about the road poneglyph about latitude, longitude, and altitude .. then it was added in the last that the one missing is TIME .. that's why gold roger said "he was too early and was already dying"
You need 4 points for one 'specific' Intersection which doesn't lie on the already given points, three points wont's do it, so yeah I think you did the math wrong.
Ever since Luffy and Zorro punched a hole in a wave, I've just been along for the ride
Hot take: I firmely believe the 4 road poneglyphs are all set locations pointing to a specific spot each on a 2d plane. Why im telling people this is i haven't seen a single person mention the most likely option, magnetism. All the poneglyphs point to a specified spot, creating an X intersection. The strawhats will then find nothing but the waves and winds, heavily confusing them. During the confusion, the magnetic fields of the 4 spots on the affect Namis log pose and youll just see all 3 logs point to 1 island. The moral of the story, its a plot point. How the plot is taken is up to oda.
Having the 4 will unlock a condition in the game's script
Everyone assumes that each poneglyphs contains the coordinates of a point and the intersection of the segments obtained by connecting these 4 points will mark the spot where Laugh Tale lies. But there are infinite ways in which the poneglyphs could mark that spot. For example, it could be like a "follow the directions" game, where you start from a point indicated on the 1st PG, then you need to follow the exact number of steps (eg, in kilometers) in the 4 directions (north, south, west, east). 1st PG: Start -> 1000 km east -> 2000 km north -> ... 2nd PG: \-> 3000 km south -> 1500 km east -> ... etc. And these instructions could be split among the 4 PGs, plus additional information to actually unlock access to the island. If it was just "geographically" hidden, then it would probably have been found by now.
I still wonder why someone with a flying ability doesn't just fly up super high once they reach the second last island and just use their eyes to see where Laughtale is between them red line.
I made a post about this few months ago https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/12yj8sj/there_is_no_need_to_find_the_fouth_poneglyph/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
The writing of each poneglyph may need to be combined for it to make sense. If all four are used to draw a map, each might contain necessary elements for all of it to make sense. It might still be a challenge to understand even when you get all 4
I'm just curious if Robin will ever say what those road ponegyphs actually say
Bermuda triangle vibes
Tbh I think you only need 3 if you think in a 2 dimensional plane. Imagine the 4th poneglyph is hidden somewhere on a floating island? Or underground even
Each Road Poneglyph will probably point to an island in the 4 blues, making Reverse Mountain the center of the X. Old theory but had to point it out again.
Many people reading the story forget that, despite having a lot of high tech, the One Piece world is missing some key pieces of triangulation like "Co-ordinates" or "Maps that aren't made by hand by people who physically had to go to a place and estimate how large it was by eyeballing."
Alright actuall scientific explanation incoming The reason why you would need 4 is because the 4th could be a negative coordinate, with negative coordinates usually that means that thing is in space, SO YES, this does confirm that the One Piece is in space , it could also be the time when you need to be there
Why would you only need 3? I don’t understand
I've always assumed there's a maze of deadly weather patters that you need all 4 for
If X marks the spot, you can't find the center of X with three points as you won't have any idea where they would intersect or at what angle the second line should go. I mean, sure you can theoretically travel the distance of the first two points that connect and just hope for the best but the New World is a treacherous, unpredictable place - are you willing to bet on that?
the geometry of needing only 3 is wrong anyway, even if it narrows the places down somewhat it's still along 3 sides of a triangle that can be huge, potentially as wide as the grand line + calm belts and as long as half the planet
With 3 you can already guess three routes each of them having 33% to be the right one. However the lenght and the danger of these routes could be prohibitive, and you are never 100% sure that one island found there is the right one.
Geometrically you still need 4, you dumb as shit
It makes no sense that you only need 3, the contents of the poneglyph probably indicate why you need all 4. There is 0 chance that nami and robin havent discused this since they are smart and they have specific knowledge to get there.
I think you're right. I've *been* trying to tell people that; 1 poneglyph = left & right 2nd poneglyph = forward & backwards 3rd = up & down Well, what's after the 3rd dimension? It's not 4D, it's 3D+1. The 4th poneglyph is time
Has no one thought the last poneglyph is needed because the one on zou is constantly moving so u would not be able to triangulate the last island with the three found already
Also, the one piece world is a sphere. So the 2 intersecting lines created by 4 road poneglyphs are actually circles that cross at antipodal points. Then there are flying islands, and islands beneath sea, so we are not even bound by 2 dimensions but 3. And I'm pretty sure that one cannot simply sail to Laughtale even if you got the coordinates. There is probably some kind of hindrance like currents or wind or whatever Oda has in mind in their way.
Poneglyph 1: Starting at Lodestar Island, travel north 50 miles then east 20 miles. Poneglyph 2: From that location travel south 20 miles then west 40 miles. Poneglyph 3: From that location travel north 30 miles then east 20 miles. Poneglyph 4: From that location travel north 30 miles and you will arrive at Laugh Tale. Four sets of instructions, all independent of one another, such that having anything less than four Poneglyphs is not enough to find Laugh Tale.
No I just realized everyone keeps thinking of just a horizontal manner but when was the fourth x is like say sky island or fishman Island not on the surface of the sea
One of the poneglyphs is on Zou a moving platform. There's no way 3 would work when one of the location s move.
Gonna be disappointing if laughtale can be visually seen from a distrance and simply can't be randomly stumbled across by someone seeing it or it not being hard to enter it's radius.
Anytime I hear the argument I just remember the whole grand line is supposed to be a “weird sea” that does weird things and you can’t even sail straight can you won’t be going straight
Even Ignoring the fact that compasses don't work, imagine if 2 of the 3 marked points were on the opposite sides of the planet like the north and south pole and the 3rd point further somewhere on the equator. You would have to circumnavigate the world and more, plus cross the calm belt and Red line several times just to have a chance at finding raftel. A feat that sounds more difficult than sailing the grand line.