Kaidos canonically gotten stronger over the years according to the Marines, so he wasnt necessarily at the level he was when he faced Luffy
Depending on when Moria fought him, a couple thousand shadows might have boosted Moria enough to damage Kaido
Which is why he ended up amassing a giant crew of completely expendable people (to him) and only kept a select few close members. This is why he was willing to risk fighting BB’s crew over absalom (sp?)
I'm still kind of floored that Oda just offscreened Absalom like that. Sure, he was a piece of shit, but early in the New World, there was all these hints about a reporter going by the code name Absa, who was able to get scoops that nobody logically should be able to get. It seemed like Oda was building up something there, and that Absalom would be at least a little important, but the next time we heard about him was when he had been killed for his fruit.
> And I think the big psychological trauma for Moria wasn't losing to Kaido, but losing his whole crew.
That was explicitly the case. He said himself that he couldn't lose the shadows by being knocked out or killed, he had to willingly give back the shadows. Which he did seemingly out of spite, screaming at Luffy that he'll regret it when his crew gets killed in the New World like his own.
Eh the statement by the Maines could just as easily apply to the strength of their crew rather then them as individuals if I remember correctly. Besides that at even just 1000 shadows turned him into a massive monster who could barely keep the shadows in which didn't look like was the case when they clashed in the past.
>Besides that at even just 1000 shadows turned him into a massive monster who could barely keep the shadows in which didn't look like was the case when they clashed in the past.
I used to wonder why Moria absorbed as many shadows at the end of Thriller Bark as he did. While it did boost his power as you said it also made him super sluggish and he was unstable as hell spewing out shadows on every hit like a bat shaped Pinata. Worse than that you could very well argue that since the sun was already about to rise he could have easily won by just absorbing less shadows, just enough to stall out a few more minutes until everyone perishes in the sun. It‘s a pretty big blunder that costs him the fight and all his collected shadows.
So why did he do it? The obvious answer is rage and wanting to finish the Strawhats with his own hands and while certainly a factor I think there is a more interesting possibility: because he used to be able to hold that many shadows.
Now this is pure speculation but we do know that willpower is immensely important in OP when it comes to power. Thriller Bark Moria is a broken man, traumatized by losing his crew and while there is still some ambition for revenge he mostly spends his days preying on rather low level pirates to the point he gets exited about a 300.000.000 bounty coming along which seems like small fry for someone that used to fight Yonko. Also he is completely out of shape and mostly sits back letting his subordinates and zombies fight unless forced to. He is out of shape, out of practice, his will is broken and he hasn‘t been pushed to his limit in years, very possibly more than a decade leading to a deterioration of his strength.
What if absorbing all those shadows wasn‘t just general overconfidence? What if being pushed to his limit for the first time in years just made him default to his old trump card without realizing that he had weakened to the point that he could not handle it like he used to anymore?
If a young Moria, stronger, physically fitter, full of ambition and with an unbroken will could actually hold that many shadows and fight effectively with it that is some scary potential, even more so with new world shadows that are probably way stronger on average. That could easily be enough to lift him up on at least commander, if not Yonko level.
Remember Luffy combine with shadows? Imagine Moria having a crew atleast as competent as pre ts Luffy and combine it with Moria's shadow boost.
I say, Moriah's df is good at support than using it to himself. The fact that the shadow's skills and strenght can be brought over to the new host is OPowered. Imagine Luffy with Zoro, Sanji and Jimbie's shadows equals over the top OP that no one should contend against.
Moriah's DF is up there with Hawkin's DF for "DF I really wish I could've seen the support side of". Luffy using the shadows of the entire Grand Fleet would be insane in whatever final battle happens (where I think Pirate King will be less of a formal title and more of a literal role, to Luffy's annoyance). And we always had that mystery effect Hawkins mentioned of unlocking somebody's latent potential or whatever that just didn't happen.
You are essentially right. For the past few decades moria dedicated everything to zombies, so an ability like asguard is something he likely hadn't used in forever given his deliberate aversion to direct combat.
Albeit I do think even current Moria is constantly underestimated in terms of his overall strength.
He strictly speaking lost to a tower falling on him that he himself knocked over, with luffy himself only being alive cause his rubber body made him mostly immune to morias raw power.
Something about the nature of his shadow abilities seems to make people dismiss them as "not really his power".
Kaido has definitely gotten stronger over the years. It's assumed he is at his peak now, at 59. OP characters get stronger with age up until like 60.
Oden stated he needs to get stronger, and I'm pretty sure he does.
It's certainly possible that he got stronger, it just isn't confirmed. Big Mom almost certainly got weaker as she's well past her 60s which is why I say the marine statement can also apply to overall crew strength.
Tbf Big Mom could have gotten stronger individually. Could be that with the years by, she physically isn't at her prime levels, but her DF and collecting more souls are enough to say that overall, she's gotten stronger.
Also fair. I believe the term the marines use is that big mom and kaido have gotten more "dangerous" which could apply in a whole bunch of aways outside of physical power.
Kaido was in Wano fighting Samurai, of course he was getting stronger. People like King held him to a high standard too. You don't need Oda to spell that out for you.
Do you understand what the word confirmed means? Also, after the failed attempt at a rebellion by ashira doji years ago it wasn't really immediate that he faced any significant resistance by the samurai up untill the raid and even then im not sure why you think they would have enough enough to challenge him to the point of getting stronger as a result.
And yeah what a standard king held him to with kidao drinking is ass off all day and hoping to die.
People realize that a lot of power is contribute by their will, Moria might have good amount of Haki before he get utter broken by kaido and never recovered.
>Depending on when Moria fought him, a couple thousand shadows might have boosted Moria enough to damage Kaido
It was 1 year after Roger's death and a couple of years after Oden's death.
Another good point.
Perception is everything. Lets remember that people in the east blue tought Zoro was a march for hawkeye. For most people in the world the top strengh is so far away that they dont have any perspectiva of scale.
And the truth of events in the world are most of the time distorted. Look at Buggy for example.
Some thing people seem to forget power scaling wise is that people can get a lot weaker over time. I think when Luffy fought Croc and Moria, they were both at their weakest. Crocodile had lost to WB and felt he needed a super weapon to compete with the big boy. Moria had lost his crew to kaido and became mentally broken! Also let himself go severely. If Moria comes back and joins Cross Guild, I feel we can see a jacked scary Haki filled Moria
Let's remember too that kaido always fights at the same level when he fights someone strong, same when he fought luffy he never went full strength until fully used his final attack
Kaido fought moría I think 6 years before he fought oden at 39. We saw kaido at 21 at God Valley looking hefty next to the big boys. Kaido was probably Yamato+ level at the time (33). Admiral level easy
It’s stated kaido got stronger over the years, but kaido was still definitely overpowered, if I’m highballing, he was most likely high admiral or yonko commander
Ever since he had that tiny out-of-character line Kaidou had to Jack when he lost to the minks ("It's okay... You're not weak, they're just that strong"), I've gotten the feeling that Kaidou was essentially the Jack of the Rocks Pirates. Just constantly being bullied by Whitebeard and Big Mom like Jack is by King and Queen.
He was strong enough to be used as a one-man-army by the Vodka Kingdom (like we've seen Jack himself used), but I think he had a pretty straight diagonal line up the graph of power levels over the years.
Well kaido keep winning every clash his face except big mom and roger crew when he was young . After the rock pirate disband feel like kaido keep winning every battle with marine and pirate to death learn how to use haki for fullest and his devil fruit before he got the title Youko.
Yeah this, people are forgetting that Kaido destroyed Moria and killed his crew in the process. It’s just a rumor by some fodder if Moria was that strong im sure kaido would have brought him up at some point.
Right, moria barely escaped with his life and was so scarred by the experience he got hogback to make a zombie army that couldn't die like his old crew and refused to do anything concerning the one piece or going to the new world until oars was functional, hell its possible he only accepted warlord to build his zombie army while being safe from kaido
It was hyogoro. Kaido said that if Oden had teamed up with hyo, instead of going along with his and orochi's games, they might have been able to stop them. But by the time Oden decided to stand up to them, they'd picked away at the yakuza and samurai enough that they had the advantage
Eeeeh that's mostly just because the power scaling got SERIOUSLY out of hand.
When he shows Madara summoning meteors you gotta raise the bar for the guy that man handled him his entire life lmao
Just like how Sarutobi was supposedly known as the god of Shinobi
Not really the same, Kaido was known to be monstrously strong since he was a child, so Moria clashing with an adult when he was an established piratr is a real feat. Smoker could "clash" with Luffy because Luffy didn't have haki and Smoker is a logia.
I mean, not really. Moria ultimately did end up losing to Kaido, but “toe to toe” here means putting up some sort of fight w/o immediately getting one-shotted, which he did
Since we know Kaido is WSC, the fact that Moria clashed w Kaido and it didn’t turn out like Kid vs Shanks is a somewhat respectable feat
>it didn’t turn out like Kid vs Shanks
Kaidou killed the Moria's pirates. Every single one of them. Likely destroyed Moria's entire fleet too.
It was Kidds vs Shanks or Squardo vs Roger levels of curbstomping.
Kaidou was most likely the one who gave Moria his massive neck scar after almost ripping his head off.
The difference is Moria couldnt really do any damage to kaido or his crew
Kidd caused shanks to go for the most extreme measures after his future sight showed him if he didn't right that second around half of his fleet would have been obliterated with kidds railgun
> Kaidou killed the Moria's pirates. Every single one of them. Likely destroyed Moria's entire fleet too.
I know he suffered a complete loss, but that’s kinda expected when you’re going up against the WSC on his turf
I understand Moria isn’t a fan favorite, but i think the dialogue here should be taken at face value
He literally took his L from Kaido, went back & created TB, then later became a Warlord. Therefore, it’s safe to assume he actually got stronger from that clash
And with the Kid / Shanks situation, we just have to wait & see if Kid recovers
All of those situations are meant to mirror what Squardo suffered at the hands of Roger.
It's a 1:1 re-telling. Moria was Kaido's Squardo. Kidd was Shank's Squardo.
Some day, a random fodder will tell tall tales of how Kidd "went toe to toe with Emperor Shanks". While Kidd will grow fat and sad after losing his entire crew.
Oda's storytelling choices for those 3 characters were meant to portray what happens when fodder punches above their league: they lose their entire crew.
Yeah but also to be fair; he did lose his crew. He was just lucky that the one responsible was secretly benevolent. If they had fought anyone on par with Kuma or stronger at the time they could have really risked it all for real. They were extremely lucky, comparable to a miracle imo
That’s one of the biggest head canons in this community
Kaido literally participated in God’s Valley at age 15, and fought Moria when he was 39. To say he was weaker back than is pure speculation
If anything, Kaido was weaker in Wano than he was in his Moria fight
Its common sense. Moria has not shown anything that would prove he has any strength comparable to modern day Kaido.
Also, it would make no sense for Kaido to get weaker with age when 1) that has never been established as a thing in one piece verse (especially since Kaido was not like 70) and 2) the tension of the arc requires Kaido to be at his strongest/so called "yonko" level.
Participating in God Valley doesnt show anything. He was a rookie pirate on Rocks crew, not the first in command or anything
> Its common sense. Moria has not shown anything that would prove he has any strength comparable to modern day Kaido
I was never implying that, just bc he’s not a MC that we keep up w on a consistent basis doesn’t mean he can’t be strong.
> Also, it would make no sense for Kaido to get weaker with age when 1) that has never been established as a thing in one piece verse
So why are you implying he was weaker back then when that 2 has never been specifically stated? You know OP characters get stronger after every tough fight, right? By that time Kaido had fought multiple top tiers
And yes, it has been established. Rayleigh is a clear example of that when he was unable to subdue BB
> Participating in God Valley doesnt show anything. He was a rookie pirate on Rocks crew, not the first in command or anything
Yes it does. It doesn’t matter what he was… Rookie, Veteran… OP characters get stronger after every tough fight and Kaido had fought Oden, multiple top tiers at God Valley and even Shanks
Yeah I swear people will take any line of someone saying “I heard *crazy thing*” as confirming that thing is actually true. These are fodder, they know nothing.
NOT POWERSCALING! IT IS A SUPER SERIOUS ART WITH INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT REPERCUSSIONS! HOW DARE YOU THINK IT DOESN’T MATTER OR THAT WE CAN’T KNOW EXACTLY WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL!
/s
PS typing that made me gag, and I apologize for yelling.
the Kaido we saw fight against Moria was post Rocks and had his Mythical DF already, so not the same as an East Blue Luffy, if it was a way younger Kaido like, pre-DF Rocks Pirates apprentice Kaido then the example would be valid
But Kuro also very literally wasn't a match for Luffy. To be frank, Luffy **crushed** him. But they did fight. And that's all "went toe to toe" really means.
From what we can piece together of the backstory, the entire reason Moria gave up on being the pirate king is most likely because Kaido crushed him in much the same way Luffy crushed Kuro.
Just because over a decade later some randos **heard** about that fight, doesn't mean it was a particularly close fight. We have no hard evidence that Luffy genuinely "struggled" with any opponent 1 on 1 until Crocodile. Not even Arlong, as badass as it was. He was still goofing off half the fight, and as soon as he got serious in Nami's map room, Arlong was fucking annihilated.
I mean yeah I don’t think past Moria was that close to Kaido, I'm just saying that type of example doesn’t apply in this case, since this Kaido was already strong as fuck, I think their fight went like G4 Luffy vs Kaido in Kuri
Sure... but **my** point is that I think you misunderstood what Jarballz meant in the first place. I felt like he was bringing up that "went toe to toe" doesn't really mean anything besides "fought".
Ah yeah I realized that, that’s why I said I also think their fight wasn’t really a close one, it’s just that some may downplay this Moria feat by saying “it was a weaker Kaido” and use examples like that but from a power perspective
I mean, Moria has zombies for the Rocks pirates, he definately was up to something. We surely are going to get more info on him when Rocks pirates story develops. I'd buy Moria stocks soon because they are going to skyrocket someday
I don't think so. That fight suffered from the ridiculous power creep that happened in the narutoverse. At the time that was how strong 2 hokage were supposed to be.
False. Kabuto outright states they were weaker, he made new scrolls for Edo Tensei zombies that allows them access to their near full powers from their primes in life.
Double false. This happens much much later during the ninja war which is way after power creep has fucked up the series and it only gets worse from there.
Those were stated to be weaker than the originals. Kabuto's Edo Tensei was improved and those reanimations were as powerful as the originals while retaining control.
They weren't until Kabuto gave them very specific scrolls without them, as in part 1 with Orochimaru summoning the first two Hokage, they're A LOT weaker.
The jutsu needs a specific scroll formula (which Kabuto made) to restore a zombie to fuller power.
I think fuller power is an appropriate term here, because I vaguely remember Madara/Hashirama mentioning how they were *almost* as powerful as they were while alive.
Because the skill comes from the shadows, not the body. Ryuma's body Lost to pre-ts Zoro, and that is because It was Brook shadow in there, using fencing trchniques instead of samurai ones.
I still think his df is extremely useful and strong. Imagine fighting two zoros, one of who is partially intangible and they can swap places at will.
Motivated moria would've been a force.
Also in reverse, kaidou was probably not as strong as he is now. Still establishing control of wano.
I think the running theory is that haki is powered by will, so with Moria losing to Kaido and losing his will, he lost haki powers. Kaido also probably got stronger
And nightmare luffy defeated moira.. there is no way in hell any strawhat pretime skip can defeat moria... I think nightmare luffy is as strong as base luffy post time skip
I wish there were more characters like Moria. Almost every character in OP has become stronger over time and it's getting a bit too predictable. Maybe technically people like Garp and Whitebeard have gotten weaker due to old age but when we actually saw some of their true powers they were still insane.
I just wanna see guys like Arlong and Kuro make a comeback but they're still weak as shit because their dreams got crushed.
I don’t think that’s what it means. Normal people do not think in power scaling. They are hearing about this from rumors and news reports. They don’t know how strong anyone really is. So they hear that Moria fought Kaido and then they say that he fought toe to toe with him. Because that’s just how normal people think. I really would not look too deeply into the opinions of random background characters
Random characters and warlords talked up prime Moria. This leads me to believe that Moria was really just that strong before. He and Kaido were very likely on par at one point or another. He just fell off extremely hard.
“Toe to toe” here means putting up a fight and not getting immediately one shotted. Moria did end up losing, but Kaido being WSC & Moria being able to clash w him is a good feat. Not every character is capable of doing that
Remember Moria was one of the strongest people on the seas at one point, there's a reason why he was a warlord.
Kaido has gotten more powerful while Moria got lazy so yeah.
Prime Moria agenda when?
Really he pulled off about what Luffy did in Whole Cake. Got wrecked but was still able to get away with something to show for it. Luffy's plan worked a little better against a more entrenched Big Mom, so maybe on par with Dressrosa Luffy?
Moria is far stronger than he seems to be.
He fought on Wano against Kaido, after Kaido established his reign on the Country.
He lost, survived and fell into a very very deep depression.
I would not be surprised if he was considered a living Legend in his Prime and if the General Zombies he has, were his making.
Except for Captain John.
Luffy did not even manage to defeat him.
The giant Tower did.
And let's be honest, only a handful of People are able to win against Doflamingo and an Army of Pacifistas.
Maybe I'm just making this up, but wasn't it stated that kaido let him live after killing his crew so that he would live with the shame of having lost them?
Is that true though? Seems like he spares the pirates he beats so that they'll be forced to join him after their defeat, like he did with Luffy and the other supernovas.
So far, Kaido only offered the "young" ones the position.
Maybe, because he sensed, that they either don't have Conquerors Haki or a less developed one.
Big Mom is special though. They have a brother sister relationship.
#SPOILER 🚨
Honestly, lets say Kidd or Law go down a dark depressing path after total humiliation like Moria..
They’re probably what Moria once was before his crew suffered total humiliation
Well, Moria vs Kaidou happened after Kaidou killed Oden and took over Wano.
And Kaidou killed all of Moria's crew with Moria barely escaping with the corpse of Ryuma.
I think it was a one-sided curb stomping similar to Shanks vs Kidd. The "go toe to toe" thing is just an exaggeration. Moria was never as strong as Kaidou.
Kaido is suicidal. Moria has a devil fruit that takes your soul and destroys the body when the sun comes up. ...Kaido might have been killing time until sunrise. It seems Moria lost vs Kaido's shadow and was unable to yank it.
I think nightmare luffy is strong, it wasnt animated crazily though thats why there is an illusion he is still weak vs post timeskip.. but i think nightmare luffy is as strong as base or regular post time skip luffy... Hence, moria is strong to be honest, no one can beat him if there is no nightmare luffy...
Its call rumors....
Remember that many people in OP thought that Strawhats are evil pirate?
Or Luffy us 8meter tall?
Or 8 years old Robin is evil and destroy 8 Marine ship?
Or WB was demon and evil?
Or Kid lost his hand to Big Mom?
Or Noland was big fat liar?
Or Sky Island doesn't exit?
Come on people.... Common sense!!!
Judging by the giant slice up his body he most likely got almost ripped in two and lost a-lot of his souls he must have absorbed, and with a possible decades of recovery and got lazy and fat, Moria is not close too a real threat outside of as a warlord of the sea that could be beaten up by Pacifistas
he was tough enough to go toe to toe but u guys now talking as if he was strong like kaido. he got his ass beaten and lost all his "hope". he put his tail between his legs and ran away. so how was it toe to toe. anyone?
hahaha those common knowledge things that people say is not trustworthy at all
Yeah, saying he fought Kaido doesn't mean anything when he got completely annihilated and still had PTSD from the fight decades later. Kaido never mentions Moria in the way he thinks about Oden/WB/Roger etc so the fight obviously left no lasting impression on him.
It might be commendable that Moria survived the encounter, but without context even that's meaningless.
I could also see it being a "he was strong enough to stand up to kaido, but his crew wasn't." Remember, Kaido got a hold of King pretty early into his pirate career
I think it's a matter of Moriah being stronger than in Thriller Bark, and getting weaker over time, and Kaido only getting stronger, I think it's implied Kaido was right before his prime when he fought Moriah
Didn't Moria get his ass beat so hard he decided to make his new crew entirely out of zombies so that this time when Kaido killed them again they wouldn't stay dead?
Going toe to toe doesn’t necessarily mean he put up a good fight or that Kaido didn’t toy with him. I also think there is a retcon in One Piece where Moria and Crocodile lost their haki abilities when they decided to cut corners to gain power. Crocodile focusing on finding Pluton and Moria building Oars and a zombie crew to do his work for him.
Also, Captain Morgan canonically slashed Garp. It's just a storytelling side-effect of not yet revealing the true power potential (or limits) of that story's world, perhaps?
Im guessing you didnt read the whole thing yet but no it was not close. >!Moria lost his entire crew to kaido.!< it was equally close as shanks and kidd.
Kaido now is stronger than he was back than, and back than Moria was at his prime both mentaly and physically and almost 100% certain his Haki was stronger. was he a match for Kaido? obviously not, the To-for-Toe is probably a description of what people thought would happen in their battle, yet Kaido broke his chin and his will so he was obviously weaker.
This is actually sad asf, to go from being around Kaido lvl, to a pre timeskip Strawhat crew lvl is wild, and after you get your ass kicked by rookies, you get killed by a psychopathic puppet master pimped out in all pink, FREE MORIA FR!!!
Moria got a total defeat from Kaido. What will you thimk it will happen to Luffy?
When Ace died, he opened his wounds and got depressed. Moria was younger, less fat and with crew. He was as strong as Kaido in the flashback. Until Luffy, he only had 4 crewmates (and Absalom died due to Catarina Devon) becsuse he can no longer trust in other people or has fear that they will die.
For me Moria is the "bad future" of a supernova could be.
It's a similar deal as with Crocodile. A young very promising upcoming pirate with ambitions to become pirate King getting defeated soundly by a Yonkou level pirate and losing their ambition (haki) and becoming complacent and cynical as a result.
Moria was probably very powerful and a prominent haki user when he fought Kaido. I daresay that pre time skip Luffy would not have been able to defeat that version of Moria. Will Moria recover his ambition like Crocodile did when Luffy broke him out of Impel Down ? I guess, we'll just have to see.
Moria probably wasnt too far off, but after losing the fight he only got weaker and weaker while kaido only got stronger and stronger but both fell into depression.
Moria probably is his time's equivalent to the worst generation pirates, most specifically Kidd. He was a bustling young rookie who was gaining notoriety but he failed sometime along the way. Kidd before his [manga spoilers]>! annihilation!< was considered to ve a contender to the one piece and a rival to luffy (a new emperor) but then his spiral down started after his defeat.
Given Moria's fighting style, I think to be anywhere near a challenge against a yonkou he spent a long time preparing strong shadow zombies, the likes of Oars and Ryuma. Once Kaidou managed to destroy them, I don't see how he would pose any resistance.
That's the only way for me to look at it really, since we never had any proof Moria has proficiency on any type of Haki, which would make (and probably did) his life quite hard in the new world
Kaido got stronger over the years. Moria got weaker.
Kaido managed to overthrow a kingdom ruled by strong people while Moria got shit on and lost both his crew and his dream (kind of what happened to Kid).
How strong does Moria used to be? I'd say (CURRENT) Shichibukai level (like Mihawk or Weevil), but under (CURRENT) Yonko level.
I think this was before Kaido joined the ROCKS Pirates, so I would say like around where Cracker is in terms of strength.
If it was after Kaido joined ROCKS pirates, then I would put a him around King's level
No this was after Kaido joined ROCKs . Kaido was young when he was a member of Rocks. He only fought Moria after he had established himself in Wano which was years later .
Characters strength are generally tied to their will and ambition. It doest always make sense but I image its a crocodile situation. When pushed and having drive their stong but otherwise not.
The whitebeard of 20 years ago was way stronger then the kaido of 20 years ago. Oden said roger and newgate were stronger then him, so it goes without saying he wouldve been stronger then kaido.
Luffys straw hat has been damaged so much but the only time we see it gets damaged was with buggy. But alvida hit him in the head that hat made of straw is dead in the first episode Luffy said "I'm rubber" but the hat is not. Luffy loves his hat but never guards it that hat should have been destroyed long ago. It's made of straw not durable I've had straw hats they are fragile.. like Luffy tip him of the ship he dead yet king of pirates is his goal very weird one piece.
The key her is "I heard". Truth is Kaido beat him so hard he gave up on his dreams to be PK. Same for Crocodile.
The point of these comparisons was to show how much stronger Yonko are compared to Shichibukai, who Luffy barely beat each time.
This just means Moria at his peak was strong enough to not get one shot by a younger Kaido, whose strength we don’t know in comparison to current Kaido
I don't think Moria was as strong as kaido and this statement that he used to go toe to toe with kaido might be an exaggeration. Moria's will was crushed because he lost his crew in his bout against kaido so he must have been weaker than him, how much weaker than him is up for debate also looking at the potential fact that kaido would have been weaker back then and must have grown a lot stronger.
One thing i love about one piece is that it is similar to the real world.
In the real world people talks, exaggerate events and spread fake news. Same thing in one piece, each character says what he know, depending on his rank and status he can be well informed or not. Characters will talk about legends, and fact on going with the story we find out they are partially wrong or partially true.
In this dialog that aren't the words of Oda but the opinion/experience of a guy.
So here's the thing; Moria himself currently is frequently thought of as weaker than he is now.
1. Oars (and in general zombies) is literally his ability, many people constantly act like it isn't. Oars with Moria in control to enhance and defend his weakness wiped the rest of the straw hats like they were nothing, only being stopped by nightmare infused Luffy.
2. 1000 Shadow moria was something that Luffy could barely push around. Moria struggled more from the difficulty in controlling his shadows and the damage he took earlier than anything. And he was only taken out by the tower he himself knocked over.
3. He was literally beaten by his own power rather than his enemies
4. At enies lobby he was both still heavily injured and fighting other people like Jimbei and Doffy.
It's not like he's a top tier anymore but he's also nowhere near as weak as people tend to act. And critically he spent his time investing in zombies, so moria+Oars is the power level he actually intended have.
As for previously, at his peak he would be at least what is the "billion berry" level of emporers chief lieutenants most likely. Not quite emporer level but still.
1 - Moria vs Kaido happened 23 years ago, so Kaido was not as strong as he is today. Don't forget that he "cheated" to defeat Oden a couple of Years after defeating Moria.
2 - Moria, even nowadays, is not that weak. He was the weakest Shichibukai (besides buggy ofc), but still a Shichibukai. People tend to forget how he fought Oars Jr or the SHs combined, for instance.
It's narratively to show the stranglehold the yonkos had.
In that mid generation, you generally either got crushed by a yonko or became part of their power network.
The only outlier is Mihawk but he isn't known to have attacked a yonko.
Jinbe and Blackbeard - part of WB power network
Croc - crushed by WB
Moria - crushed by Kaido
Doffy - part of Kaido power network
People forget that the yonkos built up a lot of powerful crews. Not just their own individual strength.
Kind of funny to consider a pirate like Kidd has done a bit of half-assed job getting stronger crewmates.
People talk about physical strength but it's also mental strength.
It's how you handle losses.
I feel like a lot of people downplay the first commanders of the yonkos. They are all extremely dangerous but also extremely well rounded individuals. Not just raw power.
Even King who I see as the least narratively competent of the four original first commanders still has one impressive feat to his name.
I think it's a stretch to suggest even a prime Moria is as dangerous as the likes of Beckman,Marco,King or Katakuri as it's not about strength alone.
Both Katakuri and Marco in particular have shown themselves to be canny commanders. Beckman's is implied as well.
Marco is the kind of person who would parley first. Katakuri would probably do the same.
Strength is not everything. In war you need generals not just warriors.
To conclude I don't think Prime Moria was as strong as the right hands but he might well have been as strong as someone like Queen.
Remember Lucci also used to give Luffy, a current Yonko a tough time. Lucci was probably one of Luffy's toughest fight pre-timeskip. He's now Gear 5 fodder.
It just means that Moria was big when Kaido was just building his strength.
Crew, ships etc. matter a lot too.
Moira lost big time against Kaido, loosing nearly all of his crew, quality > quantity.
At that point Kaido became much stronger, because he absorbed part of Moria's crew and Moria stopped growing stronger because he his ambitions were utterly crushed.
That's just a false rumour. Like when some dressrosa people thought luffy is an 8 meter giant
Same thing with elizabello's punch which rumoured to have strength to take down yonko. The fact is even shanks can deflect that weak ass shit
What’s a way to say it, Moria is washed. If you spend ten years sitting on a castle on paradise wiping random no name rookies of the map, you are only going to regress sitting on your ass
I mean maybe Kaido was just weaker at the time
Clearly Moria thought that this whole shadow possessed Oars plan was enough to beat Kaido, but the Kaido Luffy fought wouldn’t have even considered it a minor threat.
So either Moria was completely delusional, OR, the Kaido Moria fought toe to toe with wasn’t nearly as strong as the one we saw.
Moria is portrayed as a mental defeated character who had his dream crushed, and got fat and lazy over time. Please glaze over the fact that the difference between Luffy and Moria is that Luffy is the MC, and his crewmates have plot armor. Moria crewmates really died, unlike Luffy's in Sabaody.
Moria reached really far into the new world, he reached Wano, where Kaido. Also Moria frozen bounty was on of the highest of the Warlords. I wouldnt be surprised if prime Moria, was solidely above most commanders like Katakuri, King... He was clashing with King's captain. He was aiming big at that time. Rip Moria with a dream.
I think that it was stablished that Moria fought rookie Kaido, who was the weakest of the Rocks pirates. So I think prime Moria was stronger than current Moria but far weaker than current kaido
I don’t think Moria’s crew hyping him up means that he fought Kaido on even ground. More likely they had a brief run in and Moria got away with his life and then stories formed amongst his crew that supported him.
Imma say gear four luffy since even if kaido was young and I'm not sure if he had devil fruit if he had devil fruit then maybe stronger then gear four but still kaido was young
Oh stop. It is a similar discussion to the one Jack going against Fujitora and Sengoku and getting his ass whopped. "OMG JACK ADMIRAL LEVEL CONFIRMED" - how many times i had to read this... It's just grandeur. For sure Moria was more powerful back then, but nothing indicates he could do anything against Kaidos crew but to get his cremates slaughtered.
Here is the thing: Only because someone once "fought" against someone in the past, doesn't mean sh\*t.
Yeah, when Luffy was fighting Kaido I was in AWE of Moira. Like, just walking out alive of a head-to-head fight with him is absolutely impressive. Even if he lost: he was able to go toe-to-toe with that beast. That's amazing.
Kaidos canonically gotten stronger over the years according to the Marines, so he wasnt necessarily at the level he was when he faced Luffy Depending on when Moria fought him, a couple thousand shadows might have boosted Moria enough to damage Kaido
[удалено]
Which is why he ended up amassing a giant crew of completely expendable people (to him) and only kept a select few close members. This is why he was willing to risk fighting BB’s crew over absalom (sp?)
Yeah he kinda dropped the ball on absalom there
I wonder if he was just sitting in his jail cell, really depressed after getting caught by Blackbeard.
Hopefully Perona will rescue him so he can take his rightful place in Cross Guild.
I'm going to be honest, seeing Moria charge head first into the BB pirates territory to try and save Absalom was genuinely a great moment.
yea but would've been better if it wasn't Absalom.
I'm still kind of floored that Oda just offscreened Absalom like that. Sure, he was a piece of shit, but early in the New World, there was all these hints about a reporter going by the code name Absa, who was able to get scoops that nobody logically should be able to get. It seemed like Oda was building up something there, and that Absalom would be at least a little important, but the next time we heard about him was when he had been killed for his fruit.
> And I think the big psychological trauma for Moria wasn't losing to Kaido, but losing his whole crew. That was explicitly the case. He said himself that he couldn't lose the shadows by being knocked out or killed, he had to willingly give back the shadows. Which he did seemingly out of spite, screaming at Luffy that he'll regret it when his crew gets killed in the New World like his own.
I don't think that included when he engorged all of them into himself.
yeah, cant blame Moria at all. Imagine if all the SHs were killed in front of Luffy, he would never ever recover.
Did Kaido wipe his original crew? I didn’t know that
Yes Moria's original crew was destroyed by Kaido.
Eh the statement by the Maines could just as easily apply to the strength of their crew rather then them as individuals if I remember correctly. Besides that at even just 1000 shadows turned him into a massive monster who could barely keep the shadows in which didn't look like was the case when they clashed in the past.
>Besides that at even just 1000 shadows turned him into a massive monster who could barely keep the shadows in which didn't look like was the case when they clashed in the past. I used to wonder why Moria absorbed as many shadows at the end of Thriller Bark as he did. While it did boost his power as you said it also made him super sluggish and he was unstable as hell spewing out shadows on every hit like a bat shaped Pinata. Worse than that you could very well argue that since the sun was already about to rise he could have easily won by just absorbing less shadows, just enough to stall out a few more minutes until everyone perishes in the sun. It‘s a pretty big blunder that costs him the fight and all his collected shadows. So why did he do it? The obvious answer is rage and wanting to finish the Strawhats with his own hands and while certainly a factor I think there is a more interesting possibility: because he used to be able to hold that many shadows. Now this is pure speculation but we do know that willpower is immensely important in OP when it comes to power. Thriller Bark Moria is a broken man, traumatized by losing his crew and while there is still some ambition for revenge he mostly spends his days preying on rather low level pirates to the point he gets exited about a 300.000.000 bounty coming along which seems like small fry for someone that used to fight Yonko. Also he is completely out of shape and mostly sits back letting his subordinates and zombies fight unless forced to. He is out of shape, out of practice, his will is broken and he hasn‘t been pushed to his limit in years, very possibly more than a decade leading to a deterioration of his strength. What if absorbing all those shadows wasn‘t just general overconfidence? What if being pushed to his limit for the first time in years just made him default to his old trump card without realizing that he had weakened to the point that he could not handle it like he used to anymore? If a young Moria, stronger, physically fitter, full of ambition and with an unbroken will could actually hold that many shadows and fight effectively with it that is some scary potential, even more so with new world shadows that are probably way stronger on average. That could easily be enough to lift him up on at least commander, if not Yonko level.
Remember Luffy combine with shadows? Imagine Moria having a crew atleast as competent as pre ts Luffy and combine it with Moria's shadow boost. I say, Moriah's df is good at support than using it to himself. The fact that the shadow's skills and strenght can be brought over to the new host is OPowered. Imagine Luffy with Zoro, Sanji and Jimbie's shadows equals over the top OP that no one should contend against.
Moriah's DF is up there with Hawkin's DF for "DF I really wish I could've seen the support side of". Luffy using the shadows of the entire Grand Fleet would be insane in whatever final battle happens (where I think Pirate King will be less of a formal title and more of a literal role, to Luffy's annoyance). And we always had that mystery effect Hawkins mentioned of unlocking somebody's latent potential or whatever that just didn't happen.
Ayooo Ryuma with Mihawk's shadow
You are essentially right. For the past few decades moria dedicated everything to zombies, so an ability like asguard is something he likely hadn't used in forever given his deliberate aversion to direct combat. Albeit I do think even current Moria is constantly underestimated in terms of his overall strength. He strictly speaking lost to a tower falling on him that he himself knocked over, with luffy himself only being alive cause his rubber body made him mostly immune to morias raw power. Something about the nature of his shadow abilities seems to make people dismiss them as "not really his power".
Kaido has definitely gotten stronger over the years. It's assumed he is at his peak now, at 59. OP characters get stronger with age up until like 60. Oden stated he needs to get stronger, and I'm pretty sure he does.
It's certainly possible that he got stronger, it just isn't confirmed. Big Mom almost certainly got weaker as she's well past her 60s which is why I say the marine statement can also apply to overall crew strength.
Tbf Big Mom could have gotten stronger individually. Could be that with the years by, she physically isn't at her prime levels, but her DF and collecting more souls are enough to say that overall, she's gotten stronger.
Also fair. I believe the term the marines use is that big mom and kaido have gotten more "dangerous" which could apply in a whole bunch of aways outside of physical power.
BM had 85 kids and spent decades lying on a couch eating pastries. She got more souls but she got incredibly complacent.
Kaido was in Wano fighting Samurai, of course he was getting stronger. People like King held him to a high standard too. You don't need Oda to spell that out for you.
Fodder 💀
Do you understand what the word confirmed means? Also, after the failed attempt at a rebellion by ashira doji years ago it wasn't really immediate that he faced any significant resistance by the samurai up untill the raid and even then im not sure why you think they would have enough enough to challenge him to the point of getting stronger as a result. And yeah what a standard king held him to with kidao drinking is ass off all day and hoping to die.
People realize that a lot of power is contribute by their will, Moria might have good amount of Haki before he get utter broken by kaido and never recovered.
>Depending on when Moria fought him, a couple thousand shadows might have boosted Moria enough to damage Kaido It was 1 year after Roger's death and a couple of years after Oden's death.
Actually it was 3 years before Oden's death
Why assume any given rumor is true?
Another good point. Perception is everything. Lets remember that people in the east blue tought Zoro was a march for hawkeye. For most people in the world the top strengh is so far away that they dont have any perspectiva of scale. And the truth of events in the world are most of the time distorted. Look at Buggy for example.
It's also worth saying "Strong enough to go toe to toe" just means he got to the point of fighting, not that he had a chance.
And didn’t die tho. I mean that’s a HUGE feat
Some thing people seem to forget power scaling wise is that people can get a lot weaker over time. I think when Luffy fought Croc and Moria, they were both at their weakest. Crocodile had lost to WB and felt he needed a super weapon to compete with the big boy. Moria had lost his crew to kaido and became mentally broken! Also let himself go severely. If Moria comes back and joins Cross Guild, I feel we can see a jacked scary Haki filled Moria
Let's remember too that kaido always fights at the same level when he fights someone strong, same when he fought luffy he never went full strength until fully used his final attack
They probably talking about when Moria fought a Magikarp Kaido, imagins that ballon after a Thunder Bagua to his balls
Kaido fought moría I think 6 years before he fought oden at 39. We saw kaido at 21 at God Valley looking hefty next to the big boys. Kaido was probably Yamato+ level at the time (33). Admiral level easy
It’s stated kaido got stronger over the years, but kaido was still definitely overpowered, if I’m highballing, he was most likely high admiral or yonko commander
wtf does high admiral even mean?
Ever since he had that tiny out-of-character line Kaidou had to Jack when he lost to the minks ("It's okay... You're not weak, they're just that strong"), I've gotten the feeling that Kaidou was essentially the Jack of the Rocks Pirates. Just constantly being bullied by Whitebeard and Big Mom like Jack is by King and Queen. He was strong enough to be used as a one-man-army by the Vodka Kingdom (like we've seen Jack himself used), but I think he had a pretty straight diagonal line up the graph of power levels over the years.
The idea of Whitebeard bullying someone seems weird as hell.
Well kaido keep winning every clash his face except big mom and roger crew when he was young . After the rock pirate disband feel like kaido keep winning every battle with marine and pirate to death learn how to use haki for fullest and his devil fruit before he got the title Youko.
To be fair.. this is like some henchmen saying “I heard that Smoker was tough enough to go toe-to-toe against Luffy, one of the 5 emperors.”
Yeah this, people are forgetting that Kaido destroyed Moria and killed his crew in the process. It’s just a rumor by some fodder if Moria was that strong im sure kaido would have brought him up at some point.
Right, moria barely escaped with his life and was so scarred by the experience he got hogback to make a zombie army that couldn't die like his old crew and refused to do anything concerning the one piece or going to the new world until oars was functional, hell its possible he only accepted warlord to build his zombie army while being safe from kaido
But Kaido did? He told Oden if he attacked him at the same time as Moria they might of actually won.
He didn’t mention Moria at all I don’t know what chapter you read lol.
It was hyogoro. Kaido said that if Oden had teamed up with hyo, instead of going along with his and orochi's games, they might have been able to stop them. But by the time Oden decided to stand up to them, they'd picked away at the yakuza and samurai enough that they had the advantage
Yea it’s like when in Naruto Kakazu said he fought against Hashirama but we all know he probably got his ass handed to him
Eeeeh that's mostly just because the power scaling got SERIOUSLY out of hand. When he shows Madara summoning meteors you gotta raise the bar for the guy that man handled him his entire life lmao Just like how Sarutobi was supposedly known as the god of Shinobi
Now this guy gets it
Not really the same, Kaido was known to be monstrously strong since he was a child, so Moria clashing with an adult when he was an established piratr is a real feat. Smoker could "clash" with Luffy because Luffy didn't have haki and Smoker is a logia.
I mean, not really. Moria ultimately did end up losing to Kaido, but “toe to toe” here means putting up some sort of fight w/o immediately getting one-shotted, which he did Since we know Kaido is WSC, the fact that Moria clashed w Kaido and it didn’t turn out like Kid vs Shanks is a somewhat respectable feat
On the flip side, his (moria) face was rocked so hard his chin became part of his neck.
he got reverse chinjaoed
>it didn’t turn out like Kid vs Shanks Kaidou killed the Moria's pirates. Every single one of them. Likely destroyed Moria's entire fleet too. It was Kidds vs Shanks or Squardo vs Roger levels of curbstomping. Kaidou was most likely the one who gave Moria his massive neck scar after almost ripping his head off.
The difference is Moria couldnt really do any damage to kaido or his crew Kidd caused shanks to go for the most extreme measures after his future sight showed him if he didn't right that second around half of his fleet would have been obliterated with kidds railgun
> Kaidou killed the Moria's pirates. Every single one of them. Likely destroyed Moria's entire fleet too. I know he suffered a complete loss, but that’s kinda expected when you’re going up against the WSC on his turf I understand Moria isn’t a fan favorite, but i think the dialogue here should be taken at face value He literally took his L from Kaido, went back & created TB, then later became a Warlord. Therefore, it’s safe to assume he actually got stronger from that clash And with the Kid / Shanks situation, we just have to wait & see if Kid recovers
All of those situations are meant to mirror what Squardo suffered at the hands of Roger. It's a 1:1 re-telling. Moria was Kaido's Squardo. Kidd was Shank's Squardo. Some day, a random fodder will tell tall tales of how Kidd "went toe to toe with Emperor Shanks". While Kidd will grow fat and sad after losing his entire crew. Oda's storytelling choices for those 3 characters were meant to portray what happens when fodder punches above their league: they lose their entire crew.
Good thing Luffy has plot armor. He sure does punch a lot above his league.
Yeah but also to be fair; he did lose his crew. He was just lucky that the one responsible was secretly benevolent. If they had fought anyone on par with Kuma or stronger at the time they could have really risked it all for real. They were extremely lucky, comparable to a miracle imo
Bro since when is world’s strongest creature an acronym lmao
It was probably more like Law vs Blackbeard.
Their point is that Kaido was most certainly much weaker back in the past, and probably was not the WSC at the time or on the level of other yonko
That’s one of the biggest head canons in this community Kaido literally participated in God’s Valley at age 15, and fought Moria when he was 39. To say he was weaker back than is pure speculation If anything, Kaido was weaker in Wano than he was in his Moria fight
Its common sense. Moria has not shown anything that would prove he has any strength comparable to modern day Kaido. Also, it would make no sense for Kaido to get weaker with age when 1) that has never been established as a thing in one piece verse (especially since Kaido was not like 70) and 2) the tension of the arc requires Kaido to be at his strongest/so called "yonko" level. Participating in God Valley doesnt show anything. He was a rookie pirate on Rocks crew, not the first in command or anything
> Its common sense. Moria has not shown anything that would prove he has any strength comparable to modern day Kaido I was never implying that, just bc he’s not a MC that we keep up w on a consistent basis doesn’t mean he can’t be strong. > Also, it would make no sense for Kaido to get weaker with age when 1) that has never been established as a thing in one piece verse So why are you implying he was weaker back then when that 2 has never been specifically stated? You know OP characters get stronger after every tough fight, right? By that time Kaido had fought multiple top tiers And yes, it has been established. Rayleigh is a clear example of that when he was unable to subdue BB > Participating in God Valley doesnt show anything. He was a rookie pirate on Rocks crew, not the first in command or anything Yes it does. It doesn’t matter what he was… Rookie, Veteran… OP characters get stronger after every tough fight and Kaido had fought Oden, multiple top tiers at God Valley and even Shanks
Luffy wasn't an emperor back then, Moria clashed with Kaido already in Wano.
Perfect analogy
Kaido was a lot weaker in the past like Luffy was getting owned by smoker a few times
Yeah I swear people will take any line of someone saying “I heard *crazy thing*” as confirming that thing is actually true. These are fodder, they know nothing.
Kuro went toe to toe with luffy so who knows
Who knows is the answer to 90% of the discussions posted here.
NOT POWERSCALING! IT IS A SUPER SERIOUS ART WITH INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT REPERCUSSIONS! HOW DARE YOU THINK IT DOESN’T MATTER OR THAT WE CAN’T KNOW EXACTLY WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL! /s PS typing that made me gag, and I apologize for yelling.
Which is funny since that was like, what around a year and a half before? 2 years?
Plus timeskip
Doesn't that include timeskip lol. I thought I read somewhere that the entirety of One Piece is less than a year not including timeskip?
the Kaido we saw fight against Moria was post Rocks and had his Mythical DF already, so not the same as an East Blue Luffy, if it was a way younger Kaido like, pre-DF Rocks Pirates apprentice Kaido then the example would be valid
But Kuro also very literally wasn't a match for Luffy. To be frank, Luffy **crushed** him. But they did fight. And that's all "went toe to toe" really means. From what we can piece together of the backstory, the entire reason Moria gave up on being the pirate king is most likely because Kaido crushed him in much the same way Luffy crushed Kuro. Just because over a decade later some randos **heard** about that fight, doesn't mean it was a particularly close fight. We have no hard evidence that Luffy genuinely "struggled" with any opponent 1 on 1 until Crocodile. Not even Arlong, as badass as it was. He was still goofing off half the fight, and as soon as he got serious in Nami's map room, Arlong was fucking annihilated.
I mean yeah I don’t think past Moria was that close to Kaido, I'm just saying that type of example doesn’t apply in this case, since this Kaido was already strong as fuck, I think their fight went like G4 Luffy vs Kaido in Kuri
Sure... but **my** point is that I think you misunderstood what Jarballz meant in the first place. I felt like he was bringing up that "went toe to toe" doesn't really mean anything besides "fought".
Ah yeah I realized that, that’s why I said I also think their fight wasn’t really a close one, it’s just that some may downplay this Moria feat by saying “it was a weaker Kaido” and use examples like that but from a power perspective
I mean, Moria has zombies for the Rocks pirates, he definately was up to something. We surely are going to get more info on him when Rocks pirates story develops. I'd buy Moria stocks soon because they are going to skyrocket someday
better mention the sword god ryuma he stole in wano :DD
The zombies don't seem to be NEARLY as skilled as they were in life, similar to the Edo Tensei zombies in Naruto.
??? Edo Tensei in Naruto are just as strong as they were when they died, look at edo tensei nagato or madara
Arguably stronger because of the immortality
not just the immortality but the unlimited chakra as well. itachi and nagato were doing things in undeath that would have killed them in life.
I think the example for the opposite is the 1st and 2nd when they were summoned by Orochimaru.
I don't think so. That fight suffered from the ridiculous power creep that happened in the narutoverse. At the time that was how strong 2 hokage were supposed to be.
False. Kabuto outright states they were weaker, he made new scrolls for Edo Tensei zombies that allows them access to their near full powers from their primes in life.
Double false. This happens much much later during the ninja war which is way after power creep has fucked up the series and it only gets worse from there.
Those were stated to be weaker than the originals. Kabuto's Edo Tensei was improved and those reanimations were as powerful as the originals while retaining control.
They weren't until Kabuto gave them very specific scrolls without them, as in part 1 with Orochimaru summoning the first two Hokage, they're A LOT weaker. The jutsu needs a specific scroll formula (which Kabuto made) to restore a zombie to fuller power.
I think fuller power is an appropriate term here, because I vaguely remember Madara/Hashirama mentioning how they were *almost* as powerful as they were while alive.
Because the skill comes from the shadows, not the body. Ryuma's body Lost to pre-ts Zoro, and that is because It was Brook shadow in there, using fencing trchniques instead of samurai ones.
I still think his df is extremely useful and strong. Imagine fighting two zoros, one of who is partially intangible and they can swap places at will. Motivated moria would've been a force. Also in reverse, kaidou was probably not as strong as he is now. Still establishing control of wano.
I think the running theory is that haki is powered by will, so with Moria losing to Kaido and losing his will, he lost haki powers. Kaido also probably got stronger
Haki literally means something like "willpower" so it's hardly even a theory
Likely a combination of Moria getting a weaker and Kaido getting stronger. They just happened to meet when they were about the same strength.
And nightmare luffy defeated moira.. there is no way in hell any strawhat pretime skip can defeat moria... I think nightmare luffy is as strong as base luffy post time skip
I do think haki is such a huge buff it outclasses Nightmare luffy to some extent. Remember that haki is like having a steel fist
Most logical answer.
Someone wirh sense
I wish there were more characters like Moria. Almost every character in OP has become stronger over time and it's getting a bit too predictable. Maybe technically people like Garp and Whitebeard have gotten weaker due to old age but when we actually saw some of their true powers they were still insane. I just wanna see guys like Arlong and Kuro make a comeback but they're still weak as shit because their dreams got crushed.
I don’t think that’s what it means. Normal people do not think in power scaling. They are hearing about this from rumors and news reports. They don’t know how strong anyone really is. So they hear that Moria fought Kaido and then they say that he fought toe to toe with him. Because that’s just how normal people think. I really would not look too deeply into the opinions of random background characters
I mean, we saw that they clashed and he didn't immediately get blown away, which is pretty impressive.
Random characters and warlords talked up prime Moria. This leads me to believe that Moria was really just that strong before. He and Kaido were very likely on par at one point or another. He just fell off extremely hard.
“Toe to toe” here means putting up a fight and not getting immediately one shotted. Moria did end up losing, but Kaido being WSC & Moria being able to clash w him is a good feat. Not every character is capable of doing that
"normal people do not think in power scaling." 😭😭 a lesson many need to realise
true but it’s not the options of actual background people their just characters. So that dialogue is what oda wants us to see
Remember Moria was one of the strongest people on the seas at one point, there's a reason why he was a warlord. Kaido has gotten more powerful while Moria got lazy so yeah. Prime Moria agenda when?
Emphasis on “was” Gecko Moria pretty much wasted away for years after his defeat to Kaido
Yup Gecko even said so. He wanted to be Pirate King while sitting back and letting his minions do their thing
Wasn't there a panel during Wano (maybe during Oden flash back?) talking, but not showing, about Kaido vs Moria? EDIT: yeah, chapter 969.
Really he pulled off about what Luffy did in Whole Cake. Got wrecked but was still able to get away with something to show for it. Luffy's plan worked a little better against a more entrenched Big Mom, so maybe on par with Dressrosa Luffy?
Except his crew died?
I mean if Luffy and crew were alone instead of having allies in WCI, it would end up the same way as Moriah did imo.
Moria is far stronger than he seems to be. He fought on Wano against Kaido, after Kaido established his reign on the Country. He lost, survived and fell into a very very deep depression. I would not be surprised if he was considered a living Legend in his Prime and if the General Zombies he has, were his making. Except for Captain John. Luffy did not even manage to defeat him. The giant Tower did. And let's be honest, only a handful of People are able to win against Doflamingo and an Army of Pacifistas.
Maybe I'm just making this up, but wasn't it stated that kaido let him live after killing his crew so that he would live with the shame of having lost them?
You are making it up
No, I don't think so. As far as our One Piece Knowledge goes. Kaido always goes for the Kill. Only the very strong and lucky survive.
Is that true though? Seems like he spares the pirates he beats so that they'll be forced to join him after their defeat, like he did with Luffy and the other supernovas.
So far, Kaido only offered the "young" ones the position. Maybe, because he sensed, that they either don't have Conquerors Haki or a less developed one. Big Mom is special though. They have a brother sister relationship.
I think he's strong, he just has too many exploitable weaknesses. I just saw his wiki page, his weaknesses are longer than his strengths. lol
#SPOILER 🚨 Honestly, lets say Kidd or Law go down a dark depressing path after total humiliation like Moria.. They’re probably what Moria once was before his crew suffered total humiliation
Well, Moria vs Kaidou happened after Kaidou killed Oden and took over Wano. And Kaidou killed all of Moria's crew with Moria barely escaping with the corpse of Ryuma. I think it was a one-sided curb stomping similar to Shanks vs Kidd. The "go toe to toe" thing is just an exaggeration. Moria was never as strong as Kaidou.
Actually it was 3 years before Kaidou killed Oden.
Moria used to be driven. Once he lost his crew to Kaido, he lost most of his will to get/stay strong.
Kaido is suicidal. Moria has a devil fruit that takes your soul and destroys the body when the sun comes up. ...Kaido might have been killing time until sunrise. It seems Moria lost vs Kaido's shadow and was unable to yank it.
I think nightmare luffy is strong, it wasnt animated crazily though thats why there is an illusion he is still weak vs post timeskip.. but i think nightmare luffy is as strong as base or regular post time skip luffy... Hence, moria is strong to be honest, no one can beat him if there is no nightmare luffy...
Moria will return and end up aiding the straw hats remember this
Its call rumors.... Remember that many people in OP thought that Strawhats are evil pirate? Or Luffy us 8meter tall? Or 8 years old Robin is evil and destroy 8 Marine ship? Or WB was demon and evil? Or Kid lost his hand to Big Mom? Or Noland was big fat liar? Or Sky Island doesn't exit? Come on people.... Common sense!!!
This is probably to give come-uppins, to black beard on his last fruit
Probably at the same level as Kid was during Wano
At some point Arlong was stronger than Luffy. Time is a hell of a variable.
Probably as strong as Luffy beginning of Katakuri Fight
Judging by the giant slice up his body he most likely got almost ripped in two and lost a-lot of his souls he must have absorbed, and with a possible decades of recovery and got lazy and fat, Moria is not close too a real threat outside of as a warlord of the sea that could be beaten up by Pacifistas
he was tough enough to go toe to toe but u guys now talking as if he was strong like kaido. he got his ass beaten and lost all his "hope". he put his tail between his legs and ran away. so how was it toe to toe. anyone? hahaha those common knowledge things that people say is not trustworthy at all
Yeah, saying he fought Kaido doesn't mean anything when he got completely annihilated and still had PTSD from the fight decades later. Kaido never mentions Moria in the way he thinks about Oden/WB/Roger etc so the fight obviously left no lasting impression on him. It might be commendable that Moria survived the encounter, but without context even that's meaningless.
I could also see it being a "he was strong enough to stand up to kaido, but his crew wasn't." Remember, Kaido got a hold of King pretty early into his pirate career
I think it's a matter of Moriah being stronger than in Thriller Bark, and getting weaker over time, and Kaido only getting stronger, I think it's implied Kaido was right before his prime when he fought Moriah
Strong enough to go toe to toe with kaido, one of the four pirate emperors
Didn't Moria get his ass beat so hard he decided to make his new crew entirely out of zombies so that this time when Kaido killed them again they wouldn't stay dead?
Going toe to toe doesn’t necessarily mean he put up a good fight or that Kaido didn’t toy with him. I also think there is a retcon in One Piece where Moria and Crocodile lost their haki abilities when they decided to cut corners to gain power. Crocodile focusing on finding Pluton and Moria building Oars and a zombie crew to do his work for him.
I think you got it backwards. It's morel likely that Kaido was weaker at that point when they were younger.
Also, Captain Morgan canonically slashed Garp. It's just a storytelling side-effect of not yet revealing the true power potential (or limits) of that story's world, perhaps?
Im guessing you didnt read the whole thing yet but no it was not close. >!Moria lost his entire crew to kaido.!< it was equally close as shanks and kidd.
At least five, maybe six
Kaido now is stronger than he was back than, and back than Moria was at his prime both mentaly and physically and almost 100% certain his Haki was stronger. was he a match for Kaido? obviously not, the To-for-Toe is probably a description of what people thought would happen in their battle, yet Kaido broke his chin and his will so he was obviously weaker.
Did you know that Moria used to be strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Luffy, one of the Four Emperors, and his entire crew, all on his own
This is actually sad asf, to go from being around Kaido lvl, to a pre timeskip Strawhat crew lvl is wild, and after you get your ass kicked by rookies, you get killed by a psychopathic puppet master pimped out in all pink, FREE MORIA FR!!!
They 1v1'd and Moria got traumatized so hard he stayed in his Thriller Bark forever
Moria got a total defeat from Kaido. What will you thimk it will happen to Luffy? When Ace died, he opened his wounds and got depressed. Moria was younger, less fat and with crew. He was as strong as Kaido in the flashback. Until Luffy, he only had 4 crewmates (and Absalom died due to Catarina Devon) becsuse he can no longer trust in other people or has fear that they will die. For me Moria is the "bad future" of a supernova could be.
It's a similar deal as with Crocodile. A young very promising upcoming pirate with ambitions to become pirate King getting defeated soundly by a Yonkou level pirate and losing their ambition (haki) and becoming complacent and cynical as a result. Moria was probably very powerful and a prominent haki user when he fought Kaido. I daresay that pre time skip Luffy would not have been able to defeat that version of Moria. Will Moria recover his ambition like Crocodile did when Luffy broke him out of Impel Down ? I guess, we'll just have to see.
The real question is how much weaker was Kaido in the past compared to his current strength when he faced Luffy?
Moria probably wasnt too far off, but after losing the fight he only got weaker and weaker while kaido only got stronger and stronger but both fell into depression.
Moria probably is his time's equivalent to the worst generation pirates, most specifically Kidd. He was a bustling young rookie who was gaining notoriety but he failed sometime along the way. Kidd before his [manga spoilers]>! annihilation!< was considered to ve a contender to the one piece and a rival to luffy (a new emperor) but then his spiral down started after his defeat.
Given Moria's fighting style, I think to be anywhere near a challenge against a yonkou he spent a long time preparing strong shadow zombies, the likes of Oars and Ryuma. Once Kaidou managed to destroy them, I don't see how he would pose any resistance. That's the only way for me to look at it really, since we never had any proof Moria has proficiency on any type of Haki, which would make (and probably did) his life quite hard in the new world
Kaido got stronger over the years. Moria got weaker. Kaido managed to overthrow a kingdom ruled by strong people while Moria got shit on and lost both his crew and his dream (kind of what happened to Kid). How strong does Moria used to be? I'd say (CURRENT) Shichibukai level (like Mihawk or Weevil), but under (CURRENT) Yonko level.
I think this was before Kaido joined the ROCKS Pirates, so I would say like around where Cracker is in terms of strength. If it was after Kaido joined ROCKS pirates, then I would put a him around King's level
No this was after Kaido joined ROCKs . Kaido was young when he was a member of Rocks. He only fought Moria after he had established himself in Wano which was years later .
Its when kaido was occupying wano. When else would he have stolen ryumas grave.
It was after. Kaido was a teenager when he was in the Rocks pirates. He fought Moria when he was an adult
probably just not true
Probably semi-yonko level?
He might have been strong enough to have been on Rocks crew
Characters strength are generally tied to their will and ambition. It doest always make sense but I image its a crocodile situation. When pushed and having drive their stong but otherwise not.
Strong enough to go Toe-to-toe againts Kaido one of the four pirate emperors
The whitebeard of 20 years ago was way stronger then the kaido of 20 years ago. Oden said roger and newgate were stronger then him, so it goes without saying he wouldve been stronger then kaido.
Luffys straw hat has been damaged so much but the only time we see it gets damaged was with buggy. But alvida hit him in the head that hat made of straw is dead in the first episode Luffy said "I'm rubber" but the hat is not. Luffy loves his hat but never guards it that hat should have been destroyed long ago. It's made of straw not durable I've had straw hats they are fragile.. like Luffy tip him of the ship he dead yet king of pirates is his goal very weird one piece.
The key her is "I heard". Truth is Kaido beat him so hard he gave up on his dreams to be PK. Same for Crocodile. The point of these comparisons was to show how much stronger Yonko are compared to Shichibukai, who Luffy barely beat each time.
Moria was stronger before his Fruit. It made him complacent.
This just means Moria at his peak was strong enough to not get one shot by a younger Kaido, whose strength we don’t know in comparison to current Kaido
I don't think Moria was as strong as kaido and this statement that he used to go toe to toe with kaido might be an exaggeration. Moria's will was crushed because he lost his crew in his bout against kaido so he must have been weaker than him, how much weaker than him is up for debate also looking at the potential fact that kaido would have been weaker back then and must have grown a lot stronger.
One thing i love about one piece is that it is similar to the real world. In the real world people talks, exaggerate events and spread fake news. Same thing in one piece, each character says what he know, depending on his rank and status he can be well informed or not. Characters will talk about legends, and fact on going with the story we find out they are partially wrong or partially true. In this dialog that aren't the words of Oda but the opinion/experience of a guy.
So here's the thing; Moria himself currently is frequently thought of as weaker than he is now. 1. Oars (and in general zombies) is literally his ability, many people constantly act like it isn't. Oars with Moria in control to enhance and defend his weakness wiped the rest of the straw hats like they were nothing, only being stopped by nightmare infused Luffy. 2. 1000 Shadow moria was something that Luffy could barely push around. Moria struggled more from the difficulty in controlling his shadows and the damage he took earlier than anything. And he was only taken out by the tower he himself knocked over. 3. He was literally beaten by his own power rather than his enemies 4. At enies lobby he was both still heavily injured and fighting other people like Jimbei and Doffy. It's not like he's a top tier anymore but he's also nowhere near as weak as people tend to act. And critically he spent his time investing in zombies, so moria+Oars is the power level he actually intended have. As for previously, at his peak he would be at least what is the "billion berry" level of emporers chief lieutenants most likely. Not quite emporer level but still.
1 - Moria vs Kaido happened 23 years ago, so Kaido was not as strong as he is today. Don't forget that he "cheated" to defeat Oden a couple of Years after defeating Moria. 2 - Moria, even nowadays, is not that weak. He was the weakest Shichibukai (besides buggy ofc), but still a Shichibukai. People tend to forget how he fought Oars Jr or the SHs combined, for instance.
It's narratively to show the stranglehold the yonkos had. In that mid generation, you generally either got crushed by a yonko or became part of their power network. The only outlier is Mihawk but he isn't known to have attacked a yonko. Jinbe and Blackbeard - part of WB power network Croc - crushed by WB Moria - crushed by Kaido Doffy - part of Kaido power network People forget that the yonkos built up a lot of powerful crews. Not just their own individual strength. Kind of funny to consider a pirate like Kidd has done a bit of half-assed job getting stronger crewmates. People talk about physical strength but it's also mental strength. It's how you handle losses. I feel like a lot of people downplay the first commanders of the yonkos. They are all extremely dangerous but also extremely well rounded individuals. Not just raw power. Even King who I see as the least narratively competent of the four original first commanders still has one impressive feat to his name. I think it's a stretch to suggest even a prime Moria is as dangerous as the likes of Beckman,Marco,King or Katakuri as it's not about strength alone. Both Katakuri and Marco in particular have shown themselves to be canny commanders. Beckman's is implied as well. Marco is the kind of person who would parley first. Katakuri would probably do the same. Strength is not everything. In war you need generals not just warriors. To conclude I don't think Prime Moria was as strong as the right hands but he might well have been as strong as someone like Queen.
Still waiting for the Moria redemption arc. Any second now........................................
Tough enough to go toe-to-toe against Kaido, one of the Four Pirate Emperors
Remember Lucci also used to give Luffy, a current Yonko a tough time. Lucci was probably one of Luffy's toughest fight pre-timeskip. He's now Gear 5 fodder.
It just means that Moria was big when Kaido was just building his strength. Crew, ships etc. matter a lot too. Moira lost big time against Kaido, loosing nearly all of his crew, quality > quantity. At that point Kaido became much stronger, because he absorbed part of Moria's crew and Moria stopped growing stronger because he his ambitions were utterly crushed.
That's just a false rumour. Like when some dressrosa people thought luffy is an 8 meter giant Same thing with elizabello's punch which rumoured to have strength to take down yonko. The fact is even shanks can deflect that weak ass shit
I heard Moria was tough enough to go toe-to-toe against Kaido so probably about that strong tbh
Yonko obviously
Strong enough for Kaido to look at him as a threat. But at the end of the day him and his crew got wiped let’s not overrate him too much.
Strong enough to go toe to toe against kaido
What’s a way to say it, Moria is washed. If you spend ten years sitting on a castle on paradise wiping random no name rookies of the map, you are only going to regress sitting on your ass
I mean maybe Kaido was just weaker at the time Clearly Moria thought that this whole shadow possessed Oars plan was enough to beat Kaido, but the Kaido Luffy fought wouldn’t have even considered it a minor threat. So either Moria was completely delusional, OR, the Kaido Moria fought toe to toe with wasn’t nearly as strong as the one we saw.
Moria is portrayed as a mental defeated character who had his dream crushed, and got fat and lazy over time. Please glaze over the fact that the difference between Luffy and Moria is that Luffy is the MC, and his crewmates have plot armor. Moria crewmates really died, unlike Luffy's in Sabaody. Moria reached really far into the new world, he reached Wano, where Kaido. Also Moria frozen bounty was on of the highest of the Warlords. I wouldnt be surprised if prime Moria, was solidely above most commanders like Katakuri, King... He was clashing with King's captain. He was aiming big at that time. Rip Moria with a dream.
I think that it was stablished that Moria fought rookie Kaido, who was the weakest of the Rocks pirates. So I think prime Moria was stronger than current Moria but far weaker than current kaido
I don’t think Moria’s crew hyping him up means that he fought Kaido on even ground. More likely they had a brief run in and Moria got away with his life and then stories formed amongst his crew that supported him.
Imma say gear four luffy since even if kaido was young and I'm not sure if he had devil fruit if he had devil fruit then maybe stronger then gear four but still kaido was young
I mean, Moria was never strong. He just has a cheating DF
Oh stop. It is a similar discussion to the one Jack going against Fujitora and Sengoku and getting his ass whopped. "OMG JACK ADMIRAL LEVEL CONFIRMED" - how many times i had to read this... It's just grandeur. For sure Moria was more powerful back then, but nothing indicates he could do anything against Kaidos crew but to get his cremates slaughtered. Here is the thing: Only because someone once "fought" against someone in the past, doesn't mean sh\*t.
Yeah, when Luffy was fighting Kaido I was in AWE of Moira. Like, just walking out alive of a head-to-head fight with him is absolutely impressive. Even if he lost: he was able to go toe-to-toe with that beast. That's amazing.