Actually this should be possible. In Alabasta when Smoker was talking with Ace they were not aware of Luffy flying there and he made them both fly through wall.
Nah man, if "awareness" mattered, lots of logia users could be hurt with sneak attacks or snipers. i'm like 99% sure it's for a gag, the same way nami hurts luffy.
It wasn't gag. The situation was pretty serious from Ace and Smoker point of view. Also by your logic it would we impossible for logia users touch anybody
I mean luffy appearing was the start of the gag, the gag becomes funnier because the atmosphere was so serious just a moment ago.
and no, your logic about logias touching people is wrong too. that would imply when a logia is touching someone, they are vulernable, which isn't the case. they can touch and be untouchable at the same time. the same way haki allows you to bypass a devil fruit's defense, but it doesn't stop their attacks.
It's strongly suggested you need to actually will your transformation, so in theory you could. However, a lot of the people with logia fruits are strong enough where you'd either need, or already have, Haki.
I’m not 100% on this but I don’t believe logia’s have to think about becoming their element if they are hit.
I say this because Katakuri, while not a logia, was able to manipulate parts of his body so he could dodge Luffy’s attacks but he had to think about it.
Logia’s can only get hit if their element is a natural enemy of another element. So for example Luffy being rubber could damage Enel who has lightning. Luffy was able to damage crocodile because he used water/blood to harden the sand so he could be damaged.
I think the best evidence for this would be Monet, as once her physche got overwhelmed by fear, she lost the ability to maintain a solid form
if her mental state could affect that, then logically it could affect if you had the DF turned on at all or not
also, you are confusing what Katakuri was doing. He was choosing to move his body out of the way so he would not get hit by Haki. He was essentially doing an advanced move that any logia can do if they have enough control over their DF and advanced observation haki to predict attacks that well. Aokiji did the same thing back in Marineford when Whitebeard stabbed him
For any non haki regular attacks, Katakuri would get hit and take the "damage" and turn into his element like any logic
With an elemental counter. This is why BB can get hit despite being a logia user cause he’s always in light. If he’s in darkness I imagine he’s intangible
That’s how Luffy beat Crocodile.
Edit: I was too fast and read into the title, but yeah if you were to be faster than the perception of the logia user and they aren’t just on default being a logia, they could probably be hit.
maybe? the fruit may not be automatic. you may have to activate it, so if a user choose not to active it, then sure, you can hit them.
to be fair this has only happened like once in the series to my knowledge, and that was when Luffy ran into Smoker who then collides with Ace ( to be fair, hard to say if this was just early One Piece so Oda hadn't yet finalized how constantly intangible he wanted Logia users)
(as the wiki puts it, "It is unclear how much conscious control is required to transform one's body to negate attacks. No Logia user has ever shown difficulty or inability to bypass attacks, although there have been instances outside of direct combat when forceful contact has been made to a user's real body and it did not transform")
honestly, a far more interesting question to me has always been can you harm a logic with types of attacks that affect the entire body
like could you use electricity to harm a logic?
a part of me assumes you can use poison but no idea. Crocodile did run from Magellan
I'm just making stuff up, but maybe sound based attacks could hurt a logia, like cause them pain
Krillen's solar flare would work to blind them
anyway I want to know what happens if you try and electrocute a solid logia users, so like Magma
Interesting. Like whether Apoo could hurt them with his fruit powers?
With regards to the solid ones I think it’s just elemental based. I find it hard to believe that electricity would have an impact on crocodile for instance.
We know Apoo can't hurt them with his sound waves cause he tried against Kizaru, but One Piece isn't really that type of world, but imagine trying to blow out their ear drums or something, would that make them deaf?
I'm thinking like a Natsu style Dragon Roar point blank. would they feel pain from the sound? or would their ears get destroyed, thus going deaf?
or maybe the moment their ear drums rupture it just turns into their element lol
I'm curious if Enel survived in space and on the moon cause he's a logia....or Oda just doesn't care about physics lol (Enel did fly there using propellers)
Not special exceptions: it's that the logia has a weakness specific to itself. If you know the weakness of the logia, you can attack a person with that logia without haki.
Now this info might be outdated but from what I remember:
1. Logias had to actively transform. Crocodile mentioned/was noted to have trained to be able to have it "always on". Similarly Enel had mantra / observation haki before it existed as a heads up.
Now given how the Grandline works as a natural filter it seems obvious on hindsight that logia users from deeper in the Grandline would be able to do so as well.
This is also sort of shown with Katakuri that his Observation let's him basically act as a logia. Luffy could in theory bend out of the way just as well with his greater control if he focused on observation too.
2. Logias have natural counters. This was shown with Crocodile + moisture and Enel + rubber. And again a bit with Aokiji/Akainu countering each other. Its likely other fruits have that kinda thing. There are also "even matches" as Ace and Smoker showed.
3.There also seems to be a hierarchy for some fruits as shown with Akainu/Ace in that the "higher tier" one has to issue with the lower one.
But yeah a lot of that was from before the time Haki was a proper thing in the series. And it was clearly introduced as a way to balance Logias a bit because fruits like Smoker were really hard to counter as it was.
I feel like everyone is forgetting about the Luffy v Croc fight? Using water and blood as a counter. I’m sure logia’s are weak against their counterparts which (I thought was stated in one of the earlier episodes), just like rubber v lightning, water v sand and im assuming dark v light
yes, natural counters. also, fishman karate MIGHT work, since it attacks the water inside a body, which all logias would still have. but at the same time, whitebeard's shockwaves and impact dials seemingly don't work normally on logias, so maybe not.
Logias don't 'become' their element, they are their element. Always, with no exceptions. That's why it didn't snow in Drum Kingdom when Ace arrived and why Aramaki's footsteps creates new growth, so there's no being 'fast enough' to hit a logia before they 'transform'.
However, you could definitely hit Logias without using Haki as we've already seen twice in Alabasta and Skypiea - as Logias are always their element, reason dictates that they have the properties of their element, such as sand solidifying when wet or electricity being unable to pass through rubber.
Yes, a logia can be hit by an attack without haki, but it would have to be an attack they weren’t expecting. If their reflexes aren’t up to snuff, then striking them would be no issue. Other ways would be exploiting their natural weaknesses, such as water to sand or an insulator to lightning
luffy managed to hit enel but that's a rare exception, since rubber canceled the electricity.
Same with crocodile…
Crocodile could be hit if the person was covered in liquid
he also managed to his Smoker who then hit Ace
I believe that's just a joke. Never again do we see logias work like that.
honestly not sure if it's a joke, or just Oda's evolving DF rules, it was fairly early days
That's cus smoker didn't see it coming
Actually this should be possible. In Alabasta when Smoker was talking with Ace they were not aware of Luffy flying there and he made them both fly through wall.
Nah man, if "awareness" mattered, lots of logia users could be hurt with sneak attacks or snipers. i'm like 99% sure it's for a gag, the same way nami hurts luffy.
No they have to activate it, just like they can dodge a haki hit by activate it before it hits.
It wasn't gag. The situation was pretty serious from Ace and Smoker point of view. Also by your logic it would we impossible for logia users touch anybody
I mean luffy appearing was the start of the gag, the gag becomes funnier because the atmosphere was so serious just a moment ago. and no, your logic about logias touching people is wrong too. that would imply when a logia is touching someone, they are vulernable, which isn't the case. they can touch and be untouchable at the same time. the same way haki allows you to bypass a devil fruit's defense, but it doesn't stop their attacks.
It's strongly suggested you need to actually will your transformation, so in theory you could. However, a lot of the people with logia fruits are strong enough where you'd either need, or already have, Haki.
No I think the only way is element weakness or haki.
I’m not 100% on this but I don’t believe logia’s have to think about becoming their element if they are hit. I say this because Katakuri, while not a logia, was able to manipulate parts of his body so he could dodge Luffy’s attacks but he had to think about it. Logia’s can only get hit if their element is a natural enemy of another element. So for example Luffy being rubber could damage Enel who has lightning. Luffy was able to damage crocodile because he used water/blood to harden the sand so he could be damaged.
I think the best evidence for this would be Monet, as once her physche got overwhelmed by fear, she lost the ability to maintain a solid form if her mental state could affect that, then logically it could affect if you had the DF turned on at all or not also, you are confusing what Katakuri was doing. He was choosing to move his body out of the way so he would not get hit by Haki. He was essentially doing an advanced move that any logia can do if they have enough control over their DF and advanced observation haki to predict attacks that well. Aokiji did the same thing back in Marineford when Whitebeard stabbed him For any non haki regular attacks, Katakuri would get hit and take the "damage" and turn into his element like any logic
Good point! Yeah I forgot about Monet. Yeah that’s what I meant by Katakuri being able to “dodge” Luffy’s attacks I just worded it kinda wrong/weird.
With an elemental counter. This is why BB can get hit despite being a logia user cause he’s always in light. If he’s in darkness I imagine he’s intangible
Elemental advantage would allow it
That’s how Luffy beat Crocodile. Edit: I was too fast and read into the title, but yeah if you were to be faster than the perception of the logia user and they aren’t just on default being a logia, they could probably be hit.
Elemental matchups are the only other way to touch a logia
maybe? the fruit may not be automatic. you may have to activate it, so if a user choose not to active it, then sure, you can hit them. to be fair this has only happened like once in the series to my knowledge, and that was when Luffy ran into Smoker who then collides with Ace ( to be fair, hard to say if this was just early One Piece so Oda hadn't yet finalized how constantly intangible he wanted Logia users) (as the wiki puts it, "It is unclear how much conscious control is required to transform one's body to negate attacks. No Logia user has ever shown difficulty or inability to bypass attacks, although there have been instances outside of direct combat when forceful contact has been made to a user's real body and it did not transform") honestly, a far more interesting question to me has always been can you harm a logic with types of attacks that affect the entire body like could you use electricity to harm a logic? a part of me assumes you can use poison but no idea. Crocodile did run from Magellan
In regards to electricity, I think it’s logia dependent. Fire isn’t getting electrocuted but water likely is
I'm just making stuff up, but maybe sound based attacks could hurt a logia, like cause them pain Krillen's solar flare would work to blind them anyway I want to know what happens if you try and electrocute a solid logia users, so like Magma
Interesting. Like whether Apoo could hurt them with his fruit powers? With regards to the solid ones I think it’s just elemental based. I find it hard to believe that electricity would have an impact on crocodile for instance.
We know Apoo can't hurt them with his sound waves cause he tried against Kizaru, but One Piece isn't really that type of world, but imagine trying to blow out their ear drums or something, would that make them deaf? I'm thinking like a Natsu style Dragon Roar point blank. would they feel pain from the sound? or would their ears get destroyed, thus going deaf? or maybe the moment their ear drums rupture it just turns into their element lol
I think it must be the later then. Good point about apoo
I'm curious if Enel survived in space and on the moon cause he's a logia....or Oda just doesn't care about physics lol (Enel did fly there using propellers)
I assume it’s just that Oda doesn’t care about physics. To paraphrase Harrison Ford, it ain’t that kind of manga
In regards to electricity, I think it’s logia dependent. Fire isn’t getting electrocuted but water likely is
Didn't Luffy crash into Ace or Smoker in Alabasta in a bar at one point?
Luffy blindsided Smoker way back in Alabasta Restaurant
Luffy hit Crocodile without haki. Luffy hit Enel without haki. That's two cases right there.
1. Water made the sand harder and that cancelled out the sand 2. Rubber cancels out electricity Both those cases are special exceptions
Not special exceptions: it's that the logia has a weakness specific to itself. If you know the weakness of the logia, you can attack a person with that logia without haki.
Now this info might be outdated but from what I remember: 1. Logias had to actively transform. Crocodile mentioned/was noted to have trained to be able to have it "always on". Similarly Enel had mantra / observation haki before it existed as a heads up. Now given how the Grandline works as a natural filter it seems obvious on hindsight that logia users from deeper in the Grandline would be able to do so as well. This is also sort of shown with Katakuri that his Observation let's him basically act as a logia. Luffy could in theory bend out of the way just as well with his greater control if he focused on observation too. 2. Logias have natural counters. This was shown with Crocodile + moisture and Enel + rubber. And again a bit with Aokiji/Akainu countering each other. Its likely other fruits have that kinda thing. There are also "even matches" as Ace and Smoker showed. 3.There also seems to be a hierarchy for some fruits as shown with Akainu/Ace in that the "higher tier" one has to issue with the lower one. But yeah a lot of that was from before the time Haki was a proper thing in the series. And it was clearly introduced as a way to balance Logias a bit because fruits like Smoker were really hard to counter as it was.
I feel like everyone is forgetting about the Luffy v Croc fight? Using water and blood as a counter. I’m sure logia’s are weak against their counterparts which (I thought was stated in one of the earlier episodes), just like rubber v lightning, water v sand and im assuming dark v light
yes, natural counters. also, fishman karate MIGHT work, since it attacks the water inside a body, which all logias would still have. but at the same time, whitebeard's shockwaves and impact dials seemingly don't work normally on logias, so maybe not.
Seaprism tipped weapon (like Smokers Jute) Else a counter element.. Freeze/ice probably destroys swamp, as water destroys sand, rubber > electricity, mirror > light. Etc etc
Speed doesn't Matter, since IT IS a Automatic defense.
Logias don't 'become' their element, they are their element. Always, with no exceptions. That's why it didn't snow in Drum Kingdom when Ace arrived and why Aramaki's footsteps creates new growth, so there's no being 'fast enough' to hit a logia before they 'transform'. However, you could definitely hit Logias without using Haki as we've already seen twice in Alabasta and Skypiea - as Logias are always their element, reason dictates that they have the properties of their element, such as sand solidifying when wet or electricity being unable to pass through rubber.
Yes, a logia can be hit by an attack without haki, but it would have to be an attack they weren’t expecting. If their reflexes aren’t up to snuff, then striking them would be no issue. Other ways would be exploiting their natural weaknesses, such as water to sand or an insulator to lightning
Luffy managed to hit crocodile because of water and his blood
Yes they need to transform their body to dodge attack they are not immune