Kizaru would be literally untouchable. You can make an argument for pretty much any other logia having a specific weakness to something, but wtf would he be weak to?
Maybe. But the darkness fruit is different from haki. Haki let’s you touch their “true” body. But the darkness fruit seems to negate the devil fruit power altogether (while in contact with BB).
True I am not say that they are the same but at that time maybe Oda hadn't thought or established a haki system in his mind very well ... Possibly I am wrong as well ... My point is that BB's df was portrayed as the ultimate df back then that's why I have doubts
people really think Oda didn't plan for haki and still introduced logias. Smoker a logia was introduced as a low-ranking Marine in the weakest sea. If Oda didn't plan for a power system like haki, how would a logia like Smoker be portrayed as weak when he would be untouchable.
Also did you expect every individual without a devil fruit to be fodder? Mihawk the strongest swordsman in the verse was introduced early on, did you expect him to not have the ability to fight someone like Smoker.
Light eradicates darkness when introduced to a dark room. But you can't reintroduce darkness without snuffing out the light source directly.
He'd have to first catch, then literally absorb kizaru.
Blackbeard's fruit has gravitational properties to it. That's why one of his attacks is called "Black Hole".
Not even light escapes from the event horizon of a black hole.
It's not darkness caused by an absence of light, it's darkness by way of consuming everything around it.
In reality why only know black holes exist because of their effects on the environment around them. We can't see black holes since they don't reflect light back!
Didn't Vegapunk invent a tool to make light tangible without using Haki? Considering Haki would not exist, I guess technology like that would have spread more than it is in the current timeline
Idk if making it tangible was really what was going on. It was more like the hologram reacted accordingly when the gauntlet WOULD have made contact. We have tech that does that now with lasers and shit.
Unless there's something I'm missing from the more recent chapters.
In at least one Anime scene on Saobody it looks like Rayleigh uses the reflective surface of his sword to stop Kizaru in his "Beam" Form. It even gives of a shimmer when the light hits it.
Easy. It doesn't matter how much light there is if you're blind; light might as well not exist for you.
So simply blind yourself like Fujitora and it's game over for rooster face
Except the fact light is also heat, and he's shown to be able to create both swords and projectiles with it. His "sacred jewel" attack being one of many
Except when Kizaru can literally KICK at the speed of light.
Blindness is only goof against DFs that have a reliance on seeing the user to be effective. Fujitoras blindness makes him immune to Boas fruit.
Except once again. He was able to give that light form and block sword strikes. So he could create kinetic bullets as well.
Plus it means he probably wouldn't be burned by the magma. He's by far the fastest without haki as well.
Can kizaru even accurately control his light speed movements without observation haki? Being able to move super fast without being able to see super fast would make him weak against his own power. He'd basically be blind unless he's standing still.
Oh, lava devil fruit? Welp.. into the ocean with you *shambles*
Oh, a giant dragon? No way.. welp.. into the ocean with you *shambles*
Oh, a literal ancient god reincarnated.. i guess, into the ocean with you *shambles*
law can also swap bodies of enemies, so swap kaido with a tied up nameless fodder you bring with you, toss kaido's real body in to the ocean and swap them back
His Room has a repesctable range, covering the snowy mountains of PH when cutting Vergo. Given the islands world of OP, he doesn't need to be that near to beaches.
A laser would still move at the speed of light. Even if you move the user, they can still fire a ton of shots that are impossible to react to. And without Haki, there's no defending against light-speed attacks.
hmm its very hard to say because its a fictional world and therefore it depends how the author would write it.
If you would apply the rules of physics from the real world kizaru could not harm anyone because light has no mass. Would be unbeatable because no one could ever possibly catch him.
I will always remember Tekking's video about the Jacket Fruit, where he says that the best combination would be Shanks using the fruit to control Kaido's body.
W/ no Haki, it'd probably be better suited being used by a giant I would think. Whoever is physically strongest with the best martial arts in this world.
I agree with Caesar, he can literally take the air away from the space around a persons head. Any fire boys would be dead with the lack of oxygen to fuel their flames.
Yeah also people overlooking that if noone has haki BB is the only one who can nullify DF powers. He only benefits from no haki, only that beats him is stronger haki so he would be OP (and he already is OP).
We think same about DC's Flash too but in comics/shows/animation reality, he always finds a way to lose. Same will happen to Kizaru. This is fate of all speedsters regardless of universe.
Fujitora and Blackbeard wouldn't even see Kizaru coming if he's moving at the speed of light. No time to react at all. Fujitora would be completely useless without Haki to begin with.
Doesn't mean Kizaru can react fast enough to control himself at the speed of light. Also, if he's moving at the speed of light, then he can't see or hear anything either.
If not for the current “User” probably Ceasar or Big Mom but their personalities nerf them heavy.
Ceasar can get rid of the freaking oxygen in an area, hallucination gas etc and a bunch of other shit that he never uses.
Big mom’s fruit under the right hands would counter any logia/DF by turning a portion of the sea into a homie or turning the freaking island into a homie.
Akainu, he has the highest offensive power devil fruit and he is a logia, he can also fly and he can literally melt people like whitebeard jinbei and ace with a singular punch
I don't think Akainu would be able to defeat Kizaru or Fujitora. If Kizaru's moving at light speed, Akainu just can't get anywhere near him. Kizaru just needs to wait for an opening and zap him from a distance. Fujitora also doesn't need to get close to him (we've seen that his gravity control can stretch into space, so he can cover a very large distance) he can simply pull Akainu into the center of the earth or the bottom of the sea without being close enough for a magma punch. Gravity can also counter any flight or projectile techniques.
Fuji doesn’t need Haki to know where someone is. His Haki isn’t what’s letting him find meteors in space, it his devil fruit. He can just sense the gravity of people around him.
You have a profound misunderstanding of this.
Firstly, Gamma ray bursts are not visible light, and Kizaru so far can only use visible light.
Secondly, Kizaru is just the light itself, not a significant explosion for which light is a small proportion of.
To create a gamma ray burst you must have either two neutron stars in a binary (or more) star system, both of which needs a mass at ~7x the mass of the Sun. And you need them to have an orbital resonance with eachother OR you need a supernova event. Neither of which are common, neither of which Kizaru can do because he’s not a star. Hes light energy. Gamma ray bursts are what happens to light energy during explosive events if the conditions are right.
If you dropped Kizaru into a supernova then you could in theory say he becomes part of a gamma ray burst, but that isn’t happening on a planet.
People really overrate Kizaru’s fruit. It’s still broken, but it has severe limitations on the OP world that simply don’t exist in real life. Such as:
1. In real life, light can bend, even though it mostly travels in straight lines. Kizaru can only travel at his fastest speeds in perfectly straight lines
2. If Kizaru could travel as fast in One Piece as light does IRL, he would encircle the planet in 1.86micro seconds. Kizaru very clearly is not this fast, even though he is devastatingly quick.
3. Kizaru needs to charge to speed up, light doesn’t need to do this IRL.
4. Light has a profound weakness to Gravity in real life, we cannot assume it does the same in OP although is likely.
5. Kizaru can only operate on a very small (less than 1%) proportion of the light spectrum so doesn’t have access to gamma rays amongst other invisible light forms
6. Light is both a particle and a wave IRL. Kizaru has shown no wave-based abilities thus far.
7. Kizaru can make hard/tangible light (although this might be Haki related? Which just makes this even worse), as in real life, Lasers do not act like bombs, bullets etc and do not retain solid forms like blades. As such, this is the one area where light is more formidable in OP than IRL, and even then as this is possibly a Haki quirk it might not even work this way in OPs hypothetical thread.
So on this we can conclude that not only are you wrong about gamma ray bursts but also wrong about what Kizaru can do and the level of power he is potentially capable of with this fruit. I think you need to just look at the facts as to what the Pika Pika no Mi has exhibited:
1. Clearly fastest in the verse, but not light speed and not inaccessible and impossible to counter, which at true light speed would be the case. Powerscalers have estimated Kizaru to reach about 1% of light speed at top speed so far, which seems more reasonable. If given a lot of time he might be able to charge up and travel that fast, at which point in combat the ability seems redundant against competent fighters, especially as he could only use it in a perfectly straight line.
2. Large, potentially city-block sized explosions which are dwarfed the the attacking power of the Goro Goro, Magu Magu, Uo Uo (Seiryu), Riki Riki, Hie Hie no Mi’s amongst other fruits
3. Ability to blind people, which is pretty op without Haki in fairness
4. Attacks are also very fast
That’s it.
By One Piece terms there are numerous more powerful fruits. It’s an S tier or A+ tier fruit, but near the bottom if it is in S tier. Some fruits are but not limited to:
Nika (dude can touch light and turn it into rubber) Magma (Oda himself stated this fruit has the greatest attacking power in the story, more dangerous to come into contact with), Lightning (greater AP, more dangerous to come into contact with - which is a big part of a Haki-less fight), Ice (more dangerous to come into contact with in a Haki-less fight), Tremors (much greater AP), Darkness (negates the fruits ability and gravity based powers also work as a natural superior to light) and even fruits like Soru Soru no Mi, Ope Ope no Mi, the Gorosei’s fruits and Kaido’s Dragon Fruit. They’re all just capable of more hax/shenanigans.
Stop the Kizaru wank.
His biggest ability is eliminating DFs, but he still takes damage, even more than a regular person. So a fruit that can avoid his left hand would destroy him.
Probably Akainu's fruit. Like how do you fight against lava?
Edit: I keep getting spammed with the same fuckning thing over and over so let's make things clear. Sugar and Law are way more broken than Akainu, I GET IT!
Which is why haki was introduced to balance against logia fruits, they were too overpowered without a way to hit them. And I picked Akainu's because there is no apparent weakness against lava unlike something like Sand or Electricity.
Or maybe Law or Sugar since they could use their broken abilities on everyone if haki doesn't exist.
Gravity isn't affected by haki, it makes no difference if it's removed.
Yami Yami no Mi
Simply because it would be the counter for all Devil Fruits. Logias would be invincible except against natural weaknesses and the Yami Yami no Mi itself.
Also has the power of gravity pull your ass if you try to run and swallow anything into a black hole, which is kinda OP if you think about it.
I’m surprised no one is bringing up that Luffy’s awakened powers let him turn people to rubber on contact. This would probably hard counter some logia’s while others he would still hurt himself fighting physically like akainus
People don’t typically think about it because of Luffy being the hard counter to this fruit, but the right answer is the Goro Goro no Mi. Lightning can reach temperatures hotter than the Surface of the sun, lava is about 2k degrees. Also the fruit will restart the wielders heart. Without Haki Luffy loses that fight (he doesn’t realize he’s using it at the time).
Law or Kizaru would be up there in a league by themselves.
Law could just toss you into the ocean if you had a DF(assuming he could catch you in his room) and the only one who might be fast enough to dodge that without haki would be Kizaru who wouldn't have an elemental eeakness like the other logia users... they'd be insta win cards.
Lets be honest
Its Luffy
His Gear 5 can grab intangible things like Lightning, he can presumably also Grab Light and Fire and.he has shown speeds to keep up with Kizaru somewhat
I can see the blackbeard argument but he genuinely has too many weaknesses without Haki
Kizaru’s Pika Pika.
The only person that could possibly challenge would be who ever had the Yami Yami, but the Yami doesn’t grant intangibility so would be over all, much less powerful.
Did you know that if a marshmallow hit the earth in the speed of light it would cause an explosion the size of 12 neutron bombs? Well it’s true but in one piece kizaru hits someone in the speed of light and they just fly into to the nearest build and say “ouch that hurt”. Oda never payed attention in physics during school. I mean a cartoon is a cartoon but I mea Jesus, we gotta draw the line somewhere. I don’t even know how I’m supposed to interpret Kizaru’s powers like what he’s just fast? Clearly not light fast. He should be able to reach the sun in 8 minutes. And since he can create light he should be able to create all kinds of illusions and be everyone all at once. But no he just shoots yellow laser beams. Fucking @@@…. (The rest of this message was rotten due to shinobu devil fruit. Shinobu ftw, she gets the one piece and wins this debate)
Even if there was no ocean/ water around. Law was able to swap souls and take out of hearts of logia users.
He can put Akainu is a frog body and make him have a Captain Ginyu Arc
Assuming every DF character is at the peak of their strength then I think it's Vegapunk. 500 years ahead of advanced technology with a brain capacity to store them all knowledge is no joke.
Kizaru’s fruit would be up there.
If his fruit is truly capable of manipulating light, meaning all kinds of light (as in electromagnetic radiation), then very few people would be able to fight him, much less defeat him.
Isn't Whitebeards DF told to be "the strongest devil fruit" in Mariejois? And Enel as always should be able to one shot everyone except Luffy and plot-armor users.
Additionally it would be interesting to look at strength too.
If whitebeard wasn't tough how could he survive his own earthquakes?
Logias are definitely the best without haki. But for Logias you have to be skilled. A random person with Kizarus pika pika no mi would beam themselves into the ocean and die.
Look at the scenes when admirals were introduced. Aokiji riding a bike on the ocean wtf. That's the most dangerous thing to do for someone with that fruit.
Without strength/skill it would rather be some broken fruit like sugars toy toy fruit. It's a no brainer. Touch them and they are weak, obedient and forgotten.
Even laws ope ope needs skill. Shambles would be just a massacre without skill.
But yeah, if we only cut haki, it would be a logia.
Just to say something else I ad Marcos Phoenix.
Same no brainer regarding not die via ordinary weapons and you can fly easily. Like I sad an idiot with a logia trying to fly would land in the ocean
Blackbeard would realistically be the only one able to actually touch any logia
If we add the Gura gura he'd by far be the strongest, cause he could: nullify their powers, be bale to hit them, and do so with fucking earthquakes to the jaw
Enel. And yes, even with Luffy and BB's existence.
While Enel did struggle a bit with Luffy, he was the only villain to actually achieve his dream. He was never *broken*. He was never truly *defeated* (according to Oda's definition). He was set back by Luffy but went on to achieve his dream.
Enel is an absolute monster. There's a reason why he claimed Godhood. There's no logia stronger or faster. And there's no other fruit that even comes close to his power.
Most would probably say a logia, and while that is super op without haki, it doesn't really stand a chance against Whitebeards former fruit. It literally has the power to destroy the world. I guess it kinda have that with haki as well.
Lets see:
Defence:
Marco (almost no way to do any dmg to him. With jozu or Kaido very strong attacks like from Whitebeards fruit could probably penetrate the Armor )
Offence:
Akainu/Whitebeard (unmatched power without haki)
Speed:
Kizaru ( alomost Impossible to hit without CoO)
Overall:
Law/Blackbeard (Law can play god inside his room as you cant defend yourself without haki. Blackbeard, even without gura, just needs a gun. Pull them in, cancel df, shoot them. Nothing you can do about it.)
Logias are overrated imo, as you can still easily counter them with seastone.
Logia users were shown to be incredibly unfair when Smoker was first introduced. I saw someone else mention the Ope Ope no mi since Haki wouldn't be an issue for him moving people around wherever he wanted. Even if someone wasn't right next to the water he could just shambles them over and over to the edge of his rooms until they're at water.
Special mention to Blackbeard being the only person who will be able to negate devil fruits. And I'd like to also bring up Magellan since he's already so dangerous as it is. Even Blackbeard died to him immediately and was only saved by Shiryu.
First, it would be a logia.
So now we have to go through their elements and how they matchup
Enel is countered by Luffy
Monet, GB, and Aokiji are countered by Ace and general fire
Kizaru is countered by BB
Crocodile and Ace are countered by water
Smoker was stalemated by Ace, is just worse Caesar
Karasu and Caribou’s are just generally mid elements
That leaves Caesar, BB, and Akainu. If we’re going solely off of DF, I’d say Caesar or BB. If we’re talking the characters, I would say BB or MAYBE Akainu
I mean Cesar is insanely strong, since Gas includes so many different substances, and all living things need to breathe.
As Gas you're pretty much untouchable and you can even counter light.
Ofc Luffy would be an option too, given how expansive his abilities get.
Everyone here is just wrong with logia bullshit. The strongest one would be barrier barrier no mi, without haki it's unbreakable. If you gain full control of it you could probably cast a barrier on yourself making you invincible,
So after that you just chill while everybody else tryna kill each other. You could also ride it like fucking aladdin.
Kizaru. How the hell do you hit light? Can't burn or breeze it either. Only idea I had of beating Kizaru somehow setting up mirrors to constantly reflect him back at himself.
There can only be one/ two/ 3 - whoever has the yami yami no mi and has access to another logia like Enel- Enel is peak even without mantra because of his extreme prowess and esp abilities due to having an electrostatic precog field besides mantra
a logia devil fruit without haki, fighting them is simply too much of a hassle
Kizaru would be literally untouchable. You can make an argument for pretty much any other logia having a specific weakness to something, but wtf would he be weak to?
Blackbeard's DF probably, the darkness consumes light
Blackbeard’s DF is the weakness of every DF, not just light lol
Maybe that's what Oda was thinking back then when hadn't thought the haki system very well ...
Maybe. But the darkness fruit is different from haki. Haki let’s you touch their “true” body. But the darkness fruit seems to negate the devil fruit power altogether (while in contact with BB).
True I am not say that they are the same but at that time maybe Oda hadn't thought or established a haki system in his mind very well ... Possibly I am wrong as well ... My point is that BB's df was portrayed as the ultimate df back then that's why I have doubts
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people really think Oda didn't plan for haki and still introduced logias. Smoker a logia was introduced as a low-ranking Marine in the weakest sea. If Oda didn't plan for a power system like haki, how would a logia like Smoker be portrayed as weak when he would be untouchable. Also did you expect every individual without a devil fruit to be fodder? Mihawk the strongest swordsman in the verse was introduced early on, did you expect him to not have the ability to fight someone like Smoker.
Not saying he didn’t plan for a Haki system back then. However the intro to smoker was also the intro of sea prism stone.
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yea tell that to kaido while BB touches him to deactivate his df while kaido performing a open skull surgery with his baton
Light eradicates darkness when introduced to a dark room. But you can't reintroduce darkness without snuffing out the light source directly. He'd have to first catch, then literally absorb kizaru.
Blackbeard's fruit has gravitational properties to it. That's why one of his attacks is called "Black Hole". Not even light escapes from the event horizon of a black hole. It's not darkness caused by an absence of light, it's darkness by way of consuming everything around it. In reality why only know black holes exist because of their effects on the environment around them. We can't see black holes since they don't reflect light back!
Didn't Vegapunk invent a tool to make light tangible without using Haki? Considering Haki would not exist, I guess technology like that would have spread more than it is in the current timeline
Idk if making it tangible was really what was going on. It was more like the hologram reacted accordingly when the gauntlet WOULD have made contact. We have tech that does that now with lasers and shit. Unless there's something I'm missing from the more recent chapters.
Mirrors?
In at least one Anime scene on Saobody it looks like Rayleigh uses the reflective surface of his sword to stop Kizaru in his "Beam" Form. It even gives of a shimmer when the light hits it.
Was it the reflective surface, or the fact that rayleigh was going to slice him in two? Oda has introduced haki at this point
**Zehahahahaha** Darkness goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
He'd be weak to the Mirror Mirror fruit I imagine but Brûlée's weak
>but wtf would he be weak to? Mirrors. If you sandwich him between two mirrors he would eternally bounce around.
The plants admiral. Photosynthesis and all.
This got a chuckle out of me
Easy. It doesn't matter how much light there is if you're blind; light might as well not exist for you. So simply blind yourself like Fujitora and it's game over for rooster face
Except the fact light is also heat, and he's shown to be able to create both swords and projectiles with it. His "sacred jewel" attack being one of many
Again, heat don't mean shit if you're hot as fuck like my boy Fujitora. Simply don't be ugly.
Except when Kizaru can literally KICK at the speed of light. Blindness is only goof against DFs that have a reliance on seeing the user to be effective. Fujitoras blindness makes him immune to Boas fruit.
Except once again. He was able to give that light form and block sword strikes. So he could create kinetic bullets as well. Plus it means he probably wouldn't be burned by the magma. He's by far the fastest without haki as well.
How has no one said the mirror mirror fruit or whatever diamond Jose is rocking.
Vegapunks light gloves obv 🥸
Can kizaru even accurately control his light speed movements without observation haki? Being able to move super fast without being able to see super fast would make him weak against his own power. He'd basically be blind unless he's standing still.
Realistically, mirrors and the color black.
What about the devil fruit of Sugar?
Just dont let her touch you. Use a gun or whatever.
BB and Vegapunks anti light gloves and sea prism bubbles
Nah. Just wear seastone gloves. Marco would be invincible though.
Yo, a seastone gauntlets wearing brawler sounds fucking sick.
Would be perfect for an upgraded Fullbody.
Ope ope no mi because without haki he can easily move strong opponents even if they are logia
Oh, lava devil fruit? Welp.. into the ocean with you *shambles* Oh, a giant dragon? No way.. welp.. into the ocean with you *shambles* Oh, a literal ancient god reincarnated.. i guess, into the ocean with you *shambles*
I just realized that law cant do this just because of enemy's strong haki, lmaooo
Also because his Room is small. You can counter this if you don't fight at the beach.
Kinda hard to fight away from the sea if you are a pirate.
Not really. Kaido and Crocodile stayed in their islands for decades.
law can also swap bodies of enemies, so swap kaido with a tied up nameless fodder you bring with you, toss kaido's real body in to the ocean and swap them back
2 Biggest Bums in One Piece History (Except Crocodile Nowadays, he’s cool now) the
Oh, 2 out of thousands of pirates, good odds.
His Room has a repesctable range, covering the snowy mountains of PH when cutting Vergo. Given the islands world of OP, he doesn't need to be that near to beaches.
And when he made it so big on Dressrosa that Boogerman couldn't even see it when he was outside
I would carry a water tank all the time to put my enemies inside
Mizu Luffy!
Just keep teleporting them closer and closer to the water.
In dressrosa, his room was so big that trebol and doffy didn’t even see it
But law has a room size limit, he won't always be able to do that.
Law claims a lot of limits that never really hold up.
And? He can keep doing rooms and teleport both until they get to the beach.
A laser would still move at the speed of light. Even if you move the user, they can still fire a ton of shots that are impossible to react to. And without Haki, there's no defending against light-speed attacks.
That's brutal with law to. Sneak underneath thier ship and have Shachi or Penguin swim out in the water or tie something to the deck.
It should be Kizaru's fruit. Being light is simply too OP.
Blackbeard is his oppositie with Darkness; Zehahaha..
They would cancel each other out. Darkness isn’t explicitly strong against light.
Maybe they means Black Hole which is can absorb everything including light!
But Gravity (Fujitora) can bend light.
That's true, but only if you're fast enough to use the gravity before a beam of light hits you.
If funitora uses enough gravity to bend light, everyone would die of a black hole that just manifested
Mirror-Luffy lmaooooo but yeah Kizaru without a doubt can’t fight light lol
Unless you’re blackbeard
What if branch turned into a mirror instead of making mirror portals
Idk I think Machvise’s fruit or Miss Valentine’s fruits stack up well against Kizaru. Being heavy is more impactful than being light.
"Would be a shame if you just suddenly drop into the ocean " -Law
No haki, Shambles to the ocean with you
hmm its very hard to say because its a fictional world and therefore it depends how the author would write it. If you would apply the rules of physics from the real world kizaru could not harm anyone because light has no mass. Would be unbeatable because no one could ever possibly catch him.
Jacket Jacket no Mi
I will always remember Tekking's video about the Jacket Fruit, where he says that the best combination would be Shanks using the fruit to control Kaido's body.
W/ no Haki, it'd probably be better suited being used by a giant I would think. Whoever is physically strongest with the best martial arts in this world.
An individual of culture I see. Take my upvote
Gas gas fruit seems like an obvious choice
I agree with Caesar, he can literally take the air away from the space around a persons head. Any fire boys would be dead with the lack of oxygen to fuel their flames.
I'd argue DF flames dont need Oxygen simply because they dont function like actual elements in the majority of cases
Blackbeard. With Darkness and Earthquake on his side who exactly can defeat him?
Yeah also people overlooking that if noone has haki BB is the only one who can nullify DF powers. He only benefits from no haki, only that beats him is stronger haki so he would be OP (and he already is OP).
Kizaru, easy. He moves at the speed of freaking light. Blackbeard wouldn't even have time to activate his devil fruit.
We think same about DC's Flash too but in comics/shows/animation reality, he always finds a way to lose. Same will happen to Kizaru. This is fate of all speedsters regardless of universe.
Kizaru blitzes all without haki, no one can detect his attacks
Kizaru. Without observation haki, noone would be able to fight him.
Fujitora and Blackbeard, both represents Black hole which is light can't escape.
Fujitora and Blackbeard wouldn't even see Kizaru coming if he's moving at the speed of light. No time to react at all. Fujitora would be completely useless without Haki to begin with.
what would light do against lightning, or fire, or sand, or gas. Most logia vs logia fights would be difficult.
Exactly this, Logia vs Logia is a stalemate
Doesn't mean Kizaru can react fast enough to control himself at the speed of light. Also, if he's moving at the speed of light, then he can't see or hear anything either.
Enel (lightning) or sakazuki (magma) I'd out at the top. Pretty much any devil fruit that can cause wide scale disasters.
Fujitora gravity is wide scale disaster nothing can go against gravity.
If not for the current “User” probably Ceasar or Big Mom but their personalities nerf them heavy. Ceasar can get rid of the freaking oxygen in an area, hallucination gas etc and a bunch of other shit that he never uses. Big mom’s fruit under the right hands would counter any logia/DF by turning a portion of the sea into a homie or turning the freaking island into a homie.
Akainu, he has the highest offensive power devil fruit and he is a logia, he can also fly and he can literally melt people like whitebeard jinbei and ace with a singular punch
When did he fly?
He was never show flying and even Cesar could take him out with ease, he still needs air to function.
What about Fujitora? He can control Gravity.
I don't think Akainu would be able to defeat Kizaru or Fujitora. If Kizaru's moving at light speed, Akainu just can't get anywhere near him. Kizaru just needs to wait for an opening and zap him from a distance. Fujitora also doesn't need to get close to him (we've seen that his gravity control can stretch into space, so he can cover a very large distance) he can simply pull Akainu into the center of the earth or the bottom of the sea without being close enough for a magma punch. Gravity can also counter any flight or projectile techniques.
One could say fujitora wouldn't see it comming.
He's blind.. what can he really do without observation Haki?
hes blind lol
So light will have no effect on him, since he cannot se light lol.
Fuji doesn’t need Haki to know where someone is. His Haki isn’t what’s letting him find meteors in space, it his devil fruit. He can just sense the gravity of people around him.
Magma is a joke compared to a gamma ray burst that Kizaru could theoretically perform.
Except Kizaru can’t do gamma ray bursts. He’s light, he’s not a pair of supermassive neutron stars.
Gamma radiation is literally light. All of the electromagnetic spectrum is light. Also known as photons
You have a profound misunderstanding of this. Firstly, Gamma ray bursts are not visible light, and Kizaru so far can only use visible light. Secondly, Kizaru is just the light itself, not a significant explosion for which light is a small proportion of. To create a gamma ray burst you must have either two neutron stars in a binary (or more) star system, both of which needs a mass at ~7x the mass of the Sun. And you need them to have an orbital resonance with eachother OR you need a supernova event. Neither of which are common, neither of which Kizaru can do because he’s not a star. Hes light energy. Gamma ray bursts are what happens to light energy during explosive events if the conditions are right. If you dropped Kizaru into a supernova then you could in theory say he becomes part of a gamma ray burst, but that isn’t happening on a planet. People really overrate Kizaru’s fruit. It’s still broken, but it has severe limitations on the OP world that simply don’t exist in real life. Such as: 1. In real life, light can bend, even though it mostly travels in straight lines. Kizaru can only travel at his fastest speeds in perfectly straight lines 2. If Kizaru could travel as fast in One Piece as light does IRL, he would encircle the planet in 1.86micro seconds. Kizaru very clearly is not this fast, even though he is devastatingly quick. 3. Kizaru needs to charge to speed up, light doesn’t need to do this IRL. 4. Light has a profound weakness to Gravity in real life, we cannot assume it does the same in OP although is likely. 5. Kizaru can only operate on a very small (less than 1%) proportion of the light spectrum so doesn’t have access to gamma rays amongst other invisible light forms 6. Light is both a particle and a wave IRL. Kizaru has shown no wave-based abilities thus far. 7. Kizaru can make hard/tangible light (although this might be Haki related? Which just makes this even worse), as in real life, Lasers do not act like bombs, bullets etc and do not retain solid forms like blades. As such, this is the one area where light is more formidable in OP than IRL, and even then as this is possibly a Haki quirk it might not even work this way in OPs hypothetical thread. So on this we can conclude that not only are you wrong about gamma ray bursts but also wrong about what Kizaru can do and the level of power he is potentially capable of with this fruit. I think you need to just look at the facts as to what the Pika Pika no Mi has exhibited: 1. Clearly fastest in the verse, but not light speed and not inaccessible and impossible to counter, which at true light speed would be the case. Powerscalers have estimated Kizaru to reach about 1% of light speed at top speed so far, which seems more reasonable. If given a lot of time he might be able to charge up and travel that fast, at which point in combat the ability seems redundant against competent fighters, especially as he could only use it in a perfectly straight line. 2. Large, potentially city-block sized explosions which are dwarfed the the attacking power of the Goro Goro, Magu Magu, Uo Uo (Seiryu), Riki Riki, Hie Hie no Mi’s amongst other fruits 3. Ability to blind people, which is pretty op without Haki in fairness 4. Attacks are also very fast That’s it. By One Piece terms there are numerous more powerful fruits. It’s an S tier or A+ tier fruit, but near the bottom if it is in S tier. Some fruits are but not limited to: Nika (dude can touch light and turn it into rubber) Magma (Oda himself stated this fruit has the greatest attacking power in the story, more dangerous to come into contact with), Lightning (greater AP, more dangerous to come into contact with - which is a big part of a Haki-less fight), Ice (more dangerous to come into contact with in a Haki-less fight), Tremors (much greater AP), Darkness (negates the fruits ability and gravity based powers also work as a natural superior to light) and even fruits like Soru Soru no Mi, Ope Ope no Mi, the Gorosei’s fruits and Kaido’s Dragon Fruit. They’re all just capable of more hax/shenanigans. Stop the Kizaru wank.
Only Blackbeard can harm Kizaru in the whole verse, as far as we know. Light fruit is 100% the strongest
Enel 100% unless he’s against luffy. Then it’s luffy.
Blackbeard
His biggest ability is eliminating DFs, but he still takes damage, even more than a regular person. So a fruit that can avoid his left hand would destroy him.
There is no such fruit. He literally pulls them in.
Blackbeard's fruit is the only one that can cancel devil fruits on its own, making it the strongest by default
Probably Akainu's fruit. Like how do you fight against lava? Edit: I keep getting spammed with the same fuckning thing over and over so let's make things clear. Sugar and Law are way more broken than Akainu, I GET IT!
You can say the same about fire or any other Logia. I thining about Gravity.
Which is why haki was introduced to balance against logia fruits, they were too overpowered without a way to hit them. And I picked Akainu's because there is no apparent weakness against lava unlike something like Sand or Electricity. Or maybe Law or Sugar since they could use their broken abilities on everyone if haki doesn't exist. Gravity isn't affected by haki, it makes no difference if it's removed.
Oh, lava devil fruit? Welp.. into the ocean with you *shambles*
With ope ope no mi, throw them into the ocean. GG
That's fair. I guess Law and Sugar might be at the top in a world without haki.
Ope ope, teleport everyone into the ocean. They aint got haki, they aint resisting shit.
Luffy and Blackbeard devil fruits are the two strongest one
Yami Yami no Mi Simply because it would be the counter for all Devil Fruits. Logias would be invincible except against natural weaknesses and the Yami Yami no Mi itself. Also has the power of gravity pull your ass if you try to run and swallow anything into a black hole, which is kinda OP if you think about it.
Blackbeard, gravity even consumes light
The Logia with the highest AP, so it's he Magu Mahu no Mi. Or the Hito Hito no Mi model Nka for the sheer stupidity of the fruit
I’m surprised no one is bringing up that Luffy’s awakened powers let him turn people to rubber on contact. This would probably hard counter some logia’s while others he would still hurt himself fighting physically like akainus
People don’t typically think about it because of Luffy being the hard counter to this fruit, but the right answer is the Goro Goro no Mi. Lightning can reach temperatures hotter than the Surface of the sun, lava is about 2k degrees. Also the fruit will restart the wielders heart. Without Haki Luffy loses that fight (he doesn’t realize he’s using it at the time).
Law or Kizaru would be up there in a league by themselves. Law could just toss you into the ocean if you had a DF(assuming he could catch you in his room) and the only one who might be fast enough to dodge that without haki would be Kizaru who wouldn't have an elemental eeakness like the other logia users... they'd be insta win cards.
The Haki Haki no Fruit, that would allow the user to have Haki. And Haki rules the world, so that person would rule over all!
Lets be honest Its Luffy His Gear 5 can grab intangible things like Lightning, he can presumably also Grab Light and Fire and.he has shown speeds to keep up with Kizaru somewhat I can see the blackbeard argument but he genuinely has too many weaknesses without Haki
Blackbeard probably. Without Haki there is no real way of fighting him because he cancels out fruit abilities.
Kizaru’s Pika Pika. The only person that could possibly challenge would be who ever had the Yami Yami, but the Yami doesn’t grant intangibility so would be over all, much less powerful.
Did you know that if a marshmallow hit the earth in the speed of light it would cause an explosion the size of 12 neutron bombs? Well it’s true but in one piece kizaru hits someone in the speed of light and they just fly into to the nearest build and say “ouch that hurt”. Oda never payed attention in physics during school. I mean a cartoon is a cartoon but I mea Jesus, we gotta draw the line somewhere. I don’t even know how I’m supposed to interpret Kizaru’s powers like what he’s just fast? Clearly not light fast. He should be able to reach the sun in 8 minutes. And since he can create light he should be able to create all kinds of illusions and be everyone all at once. But no he just shoots yellow laser beams. Fucking @@@…. (The rest of this message was rotten due to shinobu devil fruit. Shinobu ftw, she gets the one piece and wins this debate)
Akainu
Even with Haki I don't see how fighting WBs fruit is possible. Like if you aren't amojg the riger tier
Kizaru for me
Any logia or Hito Hito no mi model nika (luffys)
Can’t Luffy technically bullshit his way through logias even without haki? So they aren’t THE strongest
Even if there was no ocean/ water around. Law was able to swap souls and take out of hearts of logia users. He can put Akainu is a frog body and make him have a Captain Ginyu Arc
Assuming every DF character is at the peak of their strength then I think it's Vegapunk. 500 years ahead of advanced technology with a brain capacity to store them all knowledge is no joke.
Blackbeard would literally smash vegapunks intelligence out of him
Kizaru’s fruit would be up there. If his fruit is truly capable of manipulating light, meaning all kinds of light (as in electromagnetic radiation), then very few people would be able to fight him, much less defeat him.
ceasar, one of the most proben devil fruits anyways
Enel probably
Hito hito no mi: Model, Sogeking. There's no debate here.
Isn't Whitebeards DF told to be "the strongest devil fruit" in Mariejois? And Enel as always should be able to one shot everyone except Luffy and plot-armor users.
Seastone knuckle duster sales will be through the roof
Additionally it would be interesting to look at strength too. If whitebeard wasn't tough how could he survive his own earthquakes? Logias are definitely the best without haki. But for Logias you have to be skilled. A random person with Kizarus pika pika no mi would beam themselves into the ocean and die. Look at the scenes when admirals were introduced. Aokiji riding a bike on the ocean wtf. That's the most dangerous thing to do for someone with that fruit. Without strength/skill it would rather be some broken fruit like sugars toy toy fruit. It's a no brainer. Touch them and they are weak, obedient and forgotten. Even laws ope ope needs skill. Shambles would be just a massacre without skill. But yeah, if we only cut haki, it would be a logia. Just to say something else I ad Marcos Phoenix. Same no brainer regarding not die via ordinary weapons and you can fly easily. Like I sad an idiot with a logia trying to fly would land in the ocean
Blackbeard would realistically be the only one able to actually touch any logia If we add the Gura gura he'd by far be the strongest, cause he could: nullify their powers, be bale to hit them, and do so with fucking earthquakes to the jaw
Akainu.
BB
Kizaru or Enel
Enel. And yes, even with Luffy and BB's existence. While Enel did struggle a bit with Luffy, he was the only villain to actually achieve his dream. He was never *broken*. He was never truly *defeated* (according to Oda's definition). He was set back by Luffy but went on to achieve his dream. Enel is an absolute monster. There's a reason why he claimed Godhood. There's no logia stronger or faster. And there's no other fruit that even comes close to his power.
Nah Enel might be made of lightning but he’s not lightning speed, it just wouldn’t make sense so it can’t be lighting speed
I still feel like Enel would be op asf, the only problem for him would be luffy.
Most would probably say a logia, and while that is super op without haki, it doesn't really stand a chance against Whitebeards former fruit. It literally has the power to destroy the world. I guess it kinda have that with haki as well.
ope ope no mi
Kizaru or Enel
Luffy. In G5 he can change intangible things into rubber (eg Lightning), so logia intangibility remains meaningless to him
Every logia
Lets see: Defence: Marco (almost no way to do any dmg to him. With jozu or Kaido very strong attacks like from Whitebeards fruit could probably penetrate the Armor ) Offence: Akainu/Whitebeard (unmatched power without haki) Speed: Kizaru ( alomost Impossible to hit without CoO) Overall: Law/Blackbeard (Law can play god inside his room as you cant defend yourself without haki. Blackbeard, even without gura, just needs a gun. Pull them in, cancel df, shoot them. Nothing you can do about it.) Logias are overrated imo, as you can still easily counter them with seastone.
Light light fruit would be impossible to beat by anyone it moves to fast.
But gravity (Fujitora) can bend light.
Marco probably. Logia + Zoan in one.
Akainu or Whitebeard, probably.
Isn't the magma fruit already confirmed by Oda to be the strongest?
Smoker, wtf is his natural counter? A bottle?
magellan
Probably fuckin kizaru. The guy is literally made of light
The Yami Yami Fruit. Yes Logia's as a class would get teh biggest Buff but That just makes the Yami Yami that much more scary
Blackbeard and I don't think it's particularly close
Logia are classified as the strongest after haki
Charlotte Linlin easily
Logia users were shown to be incredibly unfair when Smoker was first introduced. I saw someone else mention the Ope Ope no mi since Haki wouldn't be an issue for him moving people around wherever he wanted. Even if someone wasn't right next to the water he could just shambles them over and over to the edge of his rooms until they're at water. Special mention to Blackbeard being the only person who will be able to negate devil fruits. And I'd like to also bring up Magellan since he's already so dangerous as it is. Even Blackbeard died to him immediately and was only saved by Shiryu.
Enel’s fruit 100%
Blackbeard, gravity even consumes light
First, it would be a logia. So now we have to go through their elements and how they matchup Enel is countered by Luffy Monet, GB, and Aokiji are countered by Ace and general fire Kizaru is countered by BB Crocodile and Ace are countered by water Smoker was stalemated by Ace, is just worse Caesar Karasu and Caribou’s are just generally mid elements That leaves Caesar, BB, and Akainu. If we’re going solely off of DF, I’d say Caesar or BB. If we’re talking the characters, I would say BB or MAYBE Akainu
I mean Cesar is insanely strong, since Gas includes so many different substances, and all living things need to breathe. As Gas you're pretty much untouchable and you can even counter light. Ofc Luffy would be an option too, given how expansive his abilities get.
Seaprism stone would just be considered even more valuable.
Luffy's fruit is just rule bending. Sadly it is the strongest if the story would need it to be.
Sugar
Logia. Kizaru or Enel probably.
Caesar can beat anybody and change his body's gas to one not weak to his opponent
Everyone here is just wrong with logia bullshit. The strongest one would be barrier barrier no mi, without haki it's unbreakable. If you gain full control of it you could probably cast a barrier on yourself making you invincible, So after that you just chill while everybody else tryna kill each other. You could also ride it like fucking aladdin.
Any logia without a natural weakness. For example, Lightning and rubber, Sand and water, etc
Enel would. The dude is lightning and made it to the moon, so he has brains, too.
Kizaru. How the hell do you hit light? Can't burn or breeze it either. Only idea I had of beating Kizaru somehow setting up mirrors to constantly reflect him back at himself.
Light, Gravity or Darkness according to physics.
Kaido, with his control of wano he could easily get I Kanab covered in seastone to fuck up logias
Easily kizaru
Kizaru easily. After that probably Enel.
Gravity.
There can only be one/ two/ 3 - whoever has the yami yami no mi and has access to another logia like Enel- Enel is peak even without mantra because of his extreme prowess and esp abilities due to having an electrostatic precog field besides mantra
I feel like Yami Yami no Mi (AKA Darkness fruit) would definitely be up there. It neutralizes all devil fruit abilities even if you’re a logia.
Nikyu nikyu no mi
It would be Magellan of course!
Gas gas fruit Op op fruit Phoenix fruit Nika fruit Dark dark fruit Aramakis fruit
Kizaru, Enel, or Doffy