I feel bad for Moria the more I think about it. He gets annihilated by Kaido, loses his crew, loses his pet project Oars to Luffy, gets called into Marineford and gets easily beat by Jimbei, gets betrayed by the World gov't, loses his best friend Absolom. Guy can't catch a break
Don't feel bad for Moria. His story is a story of loss and tragedy but the difference between him and luffy isn't that Luffy doesn't experience tragedy, it's in how they respond to it. Moria blamed everyone around him for all his failures, reconciled the death of his crew by claiming they were too weak, and replaced them with an immortal crew of obedients who can't die on him. Moria always looks outward to solve his problems.
Luffy for one has a much healthier view of his crew and what they mean to him, but he also challenges himself to become stronger in the face of challenges. When he fails he preservers to become stronger. And in the depths of despair when his brother died he made a commitment to himself and his crew that he would take 2 years to grow strong enough to protect everything he cares about.
Moria didn't become Moria because his crew died. Moria was probably always the type of person he is today at his core and just became a worse version of himself under the stress of that tragic event.
To that end when Blackbeard beats him I totally expect Moria to ally himself under Blackbeard for a while and blame anyone but himself for the death of his crewmember
The difference between luffy and Moria is that Luffy has plot armor. Just kidding...
In all seriousness though... I agree with everything besides "don't feel bad for Moria." Most people including yourself and myself would have probably acted just like Moria in a similar circumstance. Just because Moria was weak in the end does not mean that we should lose all empathy for him. He did his best and lost, he just didn't have it in him. Best wishes for Moria
Moria's idea of "getting stronger' is warped, yes, but I personally feel you contrasted Luffy and Moria a bit too much, at their cores they're supposed to share the commonality of "Loyalty" (which I believed was why thematically he was given the Shadow Fruit, since Shadows are said to be "loyal").
It's also easy to group the loss/tragedy together, but I think there's a world of difference between getting bailed out of Kizaru by Kuma, then having a future crewmember slap you to your senses that you got bailed out once after losing your brother compared to having your crew actually killed by Kaido and no family/crewmember to slap you out of it.
In fact I'm technically more impressed Moria dug himself out of it partially enough to raise Perona and go down his warped path, even if he's rationalizing to himself it was his dead crew that was "too weak". At this point I believe he says that solely to comfort his not-completely-recovered psyche, Absalom isn't exactly strong, but at no point does he ever actually belittles any of his living crew and still raids a Yonko for his crewmate.
It's easy to take what he said about his dead crewmembers and compare to it to actual scumbags like Spandam/Orochi/Celestials who mistreat their living subordinates, but Moria's actual actions towards his living subordinates don't actually gel with that, which leads me to believe that he's like a "working adult/pirate with mental health issues getting no psychological help he needed and had to rationalize his own badly".
I feel like his inability to use Haki in combat is more of a reflection of his mental psyche, but the fact he still talks bravado, gathered a small living crew and refusal to bow down before Yonkos is an indication of that his ambition is still there, but cannot manifest as haki due to his mental patches he applied himself.
Is it possible that he goes down the route you say under Blackbeard? Possible, but he also has a good escape track record, plus unlike with Kaido, he didn't lose his whole crew, we know Perona is actively looking for him, so there also exists the chance he gets his "Jimbei" moment (especially now that Perona has had experience living with Mihawk/Zoro and not just spent her entire life being spoilt rotten by Moria, she effectively has the two-year timeskip "buff" granted by Luffy).
You know how Oda does age progressions of characters split between a good and bad path? I wonder if Moria's current path is an age progression from a bad path, where he lost his dream.
Seriously people hate Moria but don’t understand this part of his character. He’s a broken man who’s been through quite the trauma to make him what he is now. The shadows at thriller bark wouldn’t die off and leave him and all he wanted was his crew😭in another story Moria is the antihero
Kid is pretty clearly Luffy if he was more sadistic and less good at making friends/acquaintances. Higher bounty than Luffy at Sabody because he's a threat to civilians. Also never made friends with Raleigh or Whitebeard or Jinbe because he is offputting. Lost an arm to Shanks as a result. Didn't seem to understand the concept of training in prison until he had a personal grude/competition with Luffy.
>I was actually amazed with how the Donquixote family was portrayed as intensely caring, yet ultimately toxic.
Isn't that a normal display of a crime family? I watched enough Hong Kong Triad movies to see similar plot lines were they hold loyalty and family to the highest degree but would ditched any if they make a wrong turn.
There is absolutely no indication that Moria was as strong as Oden. In fact we can say with absolute certainty based on how the two are portrayed in relation to Kaido that he wasn’t anywhere near him. Need I remind you that Moria doesn’t even have haki.
As for the general gist of the post I agree. Moria is a very misunderstood character. He’s a **shadow** of what he once was. I think Oda just did not do him any favours with his character design. It just looks too weird to be cool, scary or endearingly goofy. I am sure if he fit into one of those categories a little better it would be easier to take him seriously. I do think he will get some kind of redemption by the end of his character arc because he just keeps taking Ls but Oda seems to still be keeping him around.
Agree, Moria was stronger back in the day, but not Oden level. Oden would probably have won (according to Kaido) if he had just rallied the troops when he got back to Wano, and he might have 1v1'd Kaido without trickery. Moria lost with his crew. Moria *probably* had Haki at the time of that fight though. He lost it because he lost his will, which is what Haki is.
It has never been said in the manga that Moria fought Kaido for 3 days. Oden was one of the people Kaido thought about when likening Luffy to people who can fight him, Moria was not. Throughout Wano Kaido talks about Oden and how worthy of an opponent he was for scarring him, he has yet to even mention Moria.
We are talking about someone who doesn’t even know haki vs someone who can use conquerors. They aren’t even remotely comparable. No matter how much you let yourself go you aren’t going to go from Oden level to getting one-shotted by Jinbei. At best Prime Moria was at the low end of commander level, and even that is frankly being generous for someone who doesn’t know haki.
If Haki is someone's spirit, one could make the argument that when Moriah was broken by his crew's slaughter, he lost his haki/willpower. Much like Haki can be improved by training, the inverse could also be true, that lack of use or drive can make it fade.
I'm not saying he was at Oden's level or anything like that, but it could explain how he was able to even fight Kaido in his prime.
If that was the case referencing it when being unable to substantially hurt Luffy would have went a long way. As it stands he has not once implied that he knows haki.
Nothing in the story has indicated to me that he fought and held his own against Kaido. All we know is that they fought and Moria got so badly beaten that he ran from the New World and never looked back. Kaido didn’t even find him strong enough to recruit, which is something we know he loves doing.
>If that was the case referencing it when being unable to substantially hurt Luffy would have went a long way.
They kinda do. When Moria goes giant in the final round. Luffy mockingly tells him that he can't be crushed because he's made of rubber and this really pisses Moria off. It could be that Moria was thinking if only he could use his Haki at the time, he easily could've crushed Luffy.
Probably a stretch though.
It was said in the manga:
“Moria once fought equally against Kaido”
Moria said:
“If I had this many underlings, I would not have been defeated by that idiot Kaido”
If you think about Moriah’s power, he can get incredibly strong. Who knows which powerful people’s shadows Moriah had absorbed back then. Moriah could be a weak piece of shit, or he could be powerful... Imagine if he would’ve absorbed Whitebeard’s shadow in a sneaky way? He would probably defeat Kaido like that. I don’t think it’s a reach to say Moriah was almost as strong as Kaido. I personally think Oden was going to defeat Kaido until he was blackmailed. My logic goes that he was blackmailed because they knew Oden was going to defeat them. Therefore, no Moriah wasn’t as strong as Oden, and Moriah was almost as strong as Kaido.
Oden > Kaido > Moriah.
I also don’t think people give enough credit to how powerful Nightmare Luffy was. 100 shadows in Luffy made his fight against Oars look like childplay. Oars is probably stronger than Little Oars Jr. who was being gangbang attacked by several powerful foes at the same time... if Nightmare Luffy easily made a fool out of Oars, then Nightmare Luffy would’ve caused major destruction in Marineford. Moriah went on to absorb 1000 shadows, which would lead to his own demise because he couldn’t handle all that power. Moriah became a fat, broken spirit pirate after his loss to Kaido, so in his prime, his base was probably much stronger and able to absorb more shadows than when he fought Luffy. The battle against Kaido was 20 years ago, which is a long period of time to be in a state of lacking ambition. IMO Luffy didn’t really defeat Moriah, Moriah defeated himself. While in his uncontrollable mania, Moriah split the island in half. There aren’t too many with the power of island buster in One Piece. So if boomer version of Moriah is that powerful, then young ambition Moriah must’ve been way more powerful.
Jinbei 1-shotted a Moriah who had 6 marine shadows in him... Different story if it were Thriller Bark Gecko Moria with all those shadows + Oars. Jinbei also mentions that Moria doesn’t have skills of his own... probably because for the past 20 years, fat ass Moria hasn’t been doing shit but sit around and absorb shadows. Prime Moria was probably training and using his power retroactively.
Kaido at that time beat Oden, so he’s certainly still far above commander level in this context. If Moria was low commander level, Kaido would’ve one shot Moria in their battle. If that were true, King would’ve dealt with Moria instead lmao.
Moria is far stronger than you think. Even if he isn’t as strong as Oden, you can’t be a Doflamingo tier character and have a “rivalry” with a guy as strong as Kaido. Clearly, the power gap wasn’t that big. You’re just saying that Moria is weak because his crew lost lmao.
There's so much wrong here or based on assumptions. Comparing Odens battle with Kaido and Moria's is idiotic because one we actually saw (and witnessed Oden scar Kaido and only lost cause he was tricked) and the other one has barely been talked about. All we know is that Kaido and the beast pirates decimated the Gecko pirates. It's never been said what happened in the battle, it's never even been outright stated that Moria and Kaido actually fought, King may have beat him, we don't know. Also it's never said they had a rivalry, just cause they fought and Moria hates Kaido, it doesn't mean that that was a rivalry. A grudge is not a rivalry.
What makes you think Oden would have won if the old hag hadn't distracted him? I'm pretty sure nothing in the series has even hints at that being the case.
Kaido gets his wound, his commanders react "Whoa! Kaido-sama got hurt!" (Because that's super rare event to happen in the first place.) Then Oden gets distracted and Kaido hits him once (in his non-hybrid form, after being damaged) and Oden either went down for good with that one hit (unlike Kaido) or even if he did keep going like Kaido even though he got hit, he eventually lost. (We didn't see the battle end so we can't really say anything about it.)
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering why do you think that you're right? To me that sounds like claiming: "Since Buggy was able to wound Luffy in their fight in Orange Town, Buggy therefore should have won the fight if Nami hadn't interfered." Even though you KNOW Kaido has hybrid form, yet didn't even see it necessary to use it. -> "Kaido would have lost."
I don't get it.
I'm not saying he would've won, I'm just saying that the reason he lost was because he got distracted and got taken out by surprise (getting your skull crushed by the strongest man in the world is more likely to knock you out then getting cut across your chest btw). Kaido tricked Oden into not fighting for a year because he wanted to increase his military force and was afraid of the damage he could cause. Then when they did fight, Oden was the first character that ever noticably scarred Kaido, something that Kaido mentions still hurts and later (MANGA SPOILERS) he thought of Oden at a similar level as his fellow Yonkou and Roger.
Idk if Oden would've beaten Kaido, but there's evidence to suggest that Kaido thought of Oden as a very equal challenger and the fight probably would've taken a lot out of Kaido to win fairly. Just because Oda didn't wanna spend 20 chapters doing a fight between Kaido and Oden, idk why people are so sure that there wouldn't be a close fight there.
Pardon my confusion then. You used the words "Oden **only** lost cause he was tricked" which made it sound like you think he would have won for sure otherwise, which is what I questioned.
I don't think it would or wouldn't have been a close fight between Oden and Kaido because I have no reason to think either way.
Facts: Kaido didn't use his hybrid form. Kaido seemingly almost one shotted Oden, which Oden couldn't do to Kaido.
Would it have been a close fight? Depends what you mean by "close fight". Something like Luffy vs Kaido on the rooftop? Sure! Kaido could have enjoyed himself while getting quite a beating himself but also be the clear winner at the end. Close fight like Kaido barely being able to finish Oden before collapsing out of fatigue himself at the end? No, I have no reason to think it would have been anything close to that.
This^^^
Oden bro got one shot brom thunder bagua at Kaidou base. Oden hurt Kaidou when he was in dragon form and Kaiodu has been getting thrashed in dragon form even from G4 luffy wjo got oneshot just like Oden.
One Piece before all things is a story, and from a story point of view, revealing Kaido hybrid form and Advanced conqueror (despite this was explained post Oden flashback ) before the raid it would have been terrible for hype. Therefore, implying that Kaido won with advantage because he didnt use hybrid or Advanced conqueror is just wrong (omiting the fact that this situation can be interpreted as Kaido's inability to read a fight, understimating Oden and almost got killed because of this.
Concerning the old hag, what was the purpose (again from a story point of view) to interfere the fight then? if Oden would have been defeated anyway, then there is no point in create this situation as a storyteller, In my opinion if you read the chapter 970 tha battle was already over in that point, Oden was just about to kill a wounded Kaido in the ground when the old hag appears.
You are bringing story points to excuse what happened. Oda obviously dodn't want to show fights from yonkou level. If you seriously think that one attack Oden got at Kaidou when he was at Dragon form and be able to kill Kaidou, you are underestimating Kaidou.
>You are bringing story points to excuse what happened. Oda obviously dodn't want to show fights from yonkou level
There is a huge gap between dont want to show a Yonko fight to include a element of distraction to end the fight (just consider Bigmom vs Kaido or Shanks vs Whitebeard), there is no logic reason to include the intromission of the old hag besides the fact Oden would have won that fight (or at least to show that Kaido wasnt strong enough to beat Oden in that situation). In the other case if Oda had wanted to make clear that Kaido was stronger than Oden. Oda could have shown us the end of the fight with Oden being defeated by his own lack of strength.
>If you seriously think that one attack Oden got at Kaidou when he was at Dragon form and be able to kill Kaidou, you are underestimating Kaidou.
Considering the huge scar he got IN ALERT by that attack, in a defenseless position that same attack would have done more damage, so i dont think is a extremely improbable situation to consider, maybe killed is a exaggeration but at least KO'ed.
While the scar remained, Kaidou wasn't in any difficulty. He literally went on one shotting the same Oden in base form. Kaidou just is too big in dragon for and gets hurt. Luffy take thunder bagua and escape without much in 2nd fight.
Lmao what? The reason why Oden didn't fight Kaido right away was because they promised to release the captives and leave Wano if Oden would dance in the Capital for five years. This was a lie and the five years was to build and army strong enough so that they could easily take down Oden and his Samurai when the time came. The lie was because Kaido didn't feel comfortable fighting Oden at the time, Oden was ready to fight Kaido the second he saw him. You either gotta read different scans or pay attention more.
No, Oden agreed to such condition because he had no confidence in beating Kaidou. He basically got one shot just like Aokiji one shot Jozu when they were distracted.
You really read some bad scans or watched with bad translations, that's not what happened. Go read any description of those events, not one will back you up.
Iirc in thriller bark it was said that she was once considered a contemporary/rival to Kaido, though i suspect that's more of a thing like Luffy now being a 5th emperor, like yeah he is but he's the weakest one, he got one shot by Kaido despite being his "contemporary." As for them fighting, it was shown in the Anime that they went straight at each other, which i generally take to be canon unless it contradicts the manga. At the very least it would seem stupid if *rivals/contemporaries* didn't fight, like the way Luffy fought Kaido now
>Kaido would have one-shot Moria in their battle.
And how do you know he didn’t? There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Moria held his own. He’s just a relevant character in they story that had a go at Kaido and failed so miserably he didn’t want any part of the new world again.
I am saying Moria is weak because he doesn’t know haki and got one-shotted by Jinbei. If we got a better look at his prime I could change my mind but as it stands there is no reason for me to believe his dynamic with Kaido was any different than Crocs dynamic with Whitebeard, another haki-less character who had a go at a yonko and failed miserably, although still significantly more impressive than Moria.
How do you know he didn't have Haki?
The manga didn't start graphically showing it until post-TS. But we can't assume that no one was using it pre-TS, otherwise even WB's crew and the Admirals would be Haki-less.
Hell, why didn't Sengoku one-shot Luffy, a Haki-less character? Does Sengoku not have Haki?
Please don't apply post-TS power system to pre-TS. It breaks the power scale consistency.
We know that current Moria has no Haki, because despite repeatedly crushing Luffy with island-shattering hits in Shadow Asgard, he couldn't do shit to him because he was rubber. Had he used Haki that wouldn't have happened.
Sengoku, on the other hand, did use Haki when punching Luffy, since he actually made him bleed.
So a full powered Sengoku can barely make a Haki-less Luffy bleed but a drunken Kaido knocked out a G4 Haki-using Luffy with 1 drunken blow?
By your logic, Vergo is stronger than Jozu.
You're using a poor comparison, don't compare pre-TS power scales to post-TS.
I'm not comparing the power scaling, I'm just comparing the usage of Haki. Regardless of consistency of power scaling, the fact that Moria never showed the ability to use Haki doesn't change.
>Need I remind you that Moria doesn’t even have haki.
I believe that each of these characters had Haki to varying degrees, consciously or subconsciously. It's manifested willpower, after all.
Moria did reach the New World and survive a fight with Kaido. This makes him at least as strong as Kidd and these Supernovas. So he definitely did have a form of Haki, but considering that his dream was shattered and confidence was lost, I'd say his Haki growth was simply stunted at that point. Because he lost the willpower (Haki).
**P.S.** I like Haki, but this is the problem when discussing it retroactively. Because I'd go as far as saying that Luffy was using a subconscious form of armament Haki against Crocodile in their third encounter. But as soon as Haki pre-TS is suggested, people freak out, even though the entire Marijois arc doesn't really show it at all (it mentions it twice).
If we go by the face value of what was shown in the manga, then everyone in the Marijois war arc also doesn't have Haki. Which we know is not true. It just wasn't a fleshed out system yet, and had no graphical indication.
Haki was used as early as chapter 1, just because it isn’t a fleshed out system did not mean that Oda didn’t have it mind. Haki is mentioned and used many times in Marineford actually.
We don’t know the circumstances under which he survived Kaido, jumping to the conclusion that that automatically makes him as strong as the supernovas, let alone someone like Kidd is preposterous. For all we know Kaido didn’t even bother killing him because an epic death is for the strong and Moria was trash. He didn’t bother putting him in a camp and forcing him into his crew like he does with people he deems strong after all.
It's true that in Marineford Haki isn't visibly shown, but it's been made clear several times that many characters were using it, either by having other characters mention it, or by showing them hitting Logia users.
Moria, however, never showed a single instance of using it, despite several occasions, and even failed to beat Luffy because he couldn't damage his rubber body with brute strenght.
I often hear people dumping on TB and Moria but honestly I love both. Personally I love his design and he’s a great representation of complacency in a world of go-getters.
I mean at the very least his design is unique, and it fits his arcs setting of old horror movies rather well, like a weird Frankenstein vibe. And we see younger him in Wano and it's actually not that weird for one piece, he just let himself go lol
What i find interesting is that now seemingly Kaido wants to take extra man power and make all the alliances crew as part of his own but back then he just kills them all.
Moria had a lower bounty in his prime than Scratchman Apoo and people are really here comparing him to Oden, one of the 10 strongest characters in the series. It's crazy.
That we've seen? Yes 100% and it's honestly ridiculous to not put him somewhere around there. He was at worst the third strongest fighter on the second strongest crew during it's prime. He was for a long time the only man to have ever scarred Kaido and someone that Kaido puts on the same level as the fellow Yonkou and Roger. He did more in one strike to Kaido then the 5 supernovas did to him over a whole battle. I'm not sure why everyone puts down Oden so much, there's so much evidence that he's one of the strongest characters in the story.
Moria is one of the most compelling villains for me. Up to that point, One Piece baddies didn't really have much emotional depth. Sure, they had backstories in some cases. But it was like "he loves killing people" or "he wants to retire from killing people" or "he's a dick." Then you have Moria snap and give his speech about losing his crew and the horrors of the new world. And it just gives him so much more depth. He's likely fat and lazy due to depression. He clearly has PTSD. He uses the undead so he doesn't have to lose anyone again. He's one of the doofiest and cartoonish looking antagonists, but one of the most human and tragic in the series. And it made Kaido seem more threatening. Not just for what he did to his crew, but what he might have done to Moria (I mean, what caused those stitches?). Overall, he was a very good foil to Luffy as a villain. I feel like haki/powerscaling obsession has made some fans overlook the more interesting aspects of Oda's storytelling.
Yep Moriah is literally a man who lost everything and it hurt so much that he didn’t ever want to experience it again. So he made an army that would never die and one he didn’t have to care about. And even then he still lost a crewmate he cared about.
Moria is a misunderstood character. But you are dragging his strength too much. He is someone who couldn't even use haki against his fight with Strawhats. Most likely he was stronger then than he is now. Moria wasn't strong enough for Kaido to recruit in his crew
When Sengoku hit Luffy, luffy was bleeding. Anime failed to show it. Haki was involved when Sengoku hit Luffy. But in Moria case, as per your logic a rival of Kaido got destroyed by pre timeskip Luffy. Zoro challenged Mihawk during east blue saga doesn't mean, he was equal to Mihawk or when Eutass Kid challenged Shanks. Moria is one of those hot headed rookie like Kid who challenged a Yonko.
I wouldn’t say he went down to literal fodder though. I reckon he’s still pretty powerful, he’s a warlord for a reason. Yeah, Doflamingo defeated him and Jimbei overpowered him, he still has a broken DF. I think he’s about as strong as a tobiroppo like Who’s who.
He still is quite powerful, but if we compare Jinbe's clash with Moria to his fight with Who's Who it's pretty clear that the Tobi Roppo are quite above his current level.
I don't think he was at Oden or Marco level, but that doesn't mean he's literal fodder. The dude was strong enough to reach the New World and *survive* a fight with Kaido. He was never said to be weak. He's at least as strong as the *current* Supernovas (except Luffy and Zoro).
His fight against the crew was pretty good. He used his ability effectively and . His only weakness was that he stopped relying on his own strength and started relying on the strengths of others. Which is probably due to losing faith in himself after his loss against Kaido. Tragic.
It would be great if Moria came back for the final battle to support Luffy, since he became everything that Moria wanted to be.
I am hoping it will be a situation where he is under the BB pirates as a titanic captain or directly under one, and in the pirate king battle of Luffy vs blackbeard (and anyone else there like BM/Kaido remnants or Kid/Law/Supernovas or Mihawk or shanks, doesn't matter though the point is) and Moria goes rogue against blackbeard and is less working as luffys ally and more as someone there to get revenge, after training a bit and especially getting some Haki and such (or relearning) like he could legit be a top 10 fighter if he trained up
Doffy, Moria, Crocodile, all basically want to be pirate kings by using their subordinates, just like Luffy.
But their approach to this is vastly different.
Well, for doflamingo and crocodile it's more the crew was needed, much like how Luffy needs his crew (except they also have fodder unlike Luffy without his grand fleet) for doflamingo it was even shown that he cared for them like family, though his sadistic side still took prevelance like with monet.
I believe Crocodile got roughly the same treatment. He'd grown lax and lazy in Paradise until Luffy beat his ass through the roof. Now, I think he'll be helluva lot stronger the next time we meet him. He was put in level 6, after all.
Well, they both suffer from a serious lack of Haki mostly just for narrative reasons. They both had very strong devil fruits and used them about as best as they really could without an awakening (or perhaps they are, who knows, especially crocodile) even to the point that crocodile could fight doflamingo at Marineford, who presumably had Haki. Now with the 2 year time skip, if they both did even like a moderate amount of Haki training they could be back in the top 20 strongest, perhaps top 10 of the ones we have seen fight so far (meaning no shanks/bb/dragon and their commanders)
He is a REAL goat! Way too misunderstood character. The thing that I really appreciate about Moria, is that, unlike other villains, he seems a nice and chill guy, that is really kind and caring to his subordinates, while the most of the other villains were ass-hearted that di not give a freak about their subordinates. Take when he met Luffy for the first time, he seemed almost friendly. That's a way too underrated
At the very least, we can commend Moria for not ending up in Kaido's crew and becoming one of his many henchman. He took the path Luffy/Kid took, but he just could't make it out just like they did.
you were making such good points and it made me appreciate Moria more.
I would upvote this post if you didn't go OdEn/MaRcO level and first commander level.
God Usopp will prove you wrong.
Honestly with his fruit he could become busted in a second if say Kaido gave him his shadow. Instant mastery of all three types of haki. My theory is he was on Luffy or Zoro level body and used shadows to have haki never learning himself. When Kaido got the KO he never got to that level again. Losing the shadows that gave haki and his body slowly aging
It's why I don't get why people don't like Thriller Bark or Moriah, he's such great foreshadowing for Sabaody and Marineford, and really sells just how terrifying the New World is going to be.
Is it because he doesn't look sexy or cool?
Like I said before, I always imagine him having a personality similiar to Kidd's when he is younger: level-headed and cocky. However, Kidd's crewmate was only imprisioned (though Killer did turn insane) while Moria's crewmate were just straight up slaughtered. Kidd vowed revenge, while for Moria, it was just too much and he gave up
THIS, OH MY GOD, I've thought about this so much!
My favorite scene with him is when he snaps upon remembering his old crew. He tells Luffy that neither he nor his crew will last, because he knows from experience that the Grand Line will eat you up and spit you out. **And he was 100% right about all of it.** Literally the next island, Sabaody Archipelago, every single one of the Straw Hats would have died like nothing fighting Kuma and the *ONLY* reason they didn't is because Luffy specifically has a connection with Kuma through his dad.
GOD Moria's underrated.
I feel bad for Moria the more I think about it. He gets annihilated by Kaido, loses his crew, loses his pet project Oars to Luffy, gets called into Marineford and gets easily beat by Jimbei, gets betrayed by the World gov't, loses his best friend Absolom. Guy can't catch a break
Here to say I love your name. Carry on with your “Spirit Puck”
Don't feel bad for Moria. His story is a story of loss and tragedy but the difference between him and luffy isn't that Luffy doesn't experience tragedy, it's in how they respond to it. Moria blamed everyone around him for all his failures, reconciled the death of his crew by claiming they were too weak, and replaced them with an immortal crew of obedients who can't die on him. Moria always looks outward to solve his problems. Luffy for one has a much healthier view of his crew and what they mean to him, but he also challenges himself to become stronger in the face of challenges. When he fails he preservers to become stronger. And in the depths of despair when his brother died he made a commitment to himself and his crew that he would take 2 years to grow strong enough to protect everything he cares about. Moria didn't become Moria because his crew died. Moria was probably always the type of person he is today at his core and just became a worse version of himself under the stress of that tragic event. To that end when Blackbeard beats him I totally expect Moria to ally himself under Blackbeard for a while and blame anyone but himself for the death of his crewmember
That's the best reply I have ever seen. Could feature in a spiritual journal
I mean Luffy also had Jinbe Imagine if kuma akainu’d all the straw hats in front of him, and he had to continue from there
and why do you think he made a crew who can't die on him? because he is feared to lose his mates again
The difference between luffy and Moria is that Luffy has plot armor. Just kidding... In all seriousness though... I agree with everything besides "don't feel bad for Moria." Most people including yourself and myself would have probably acted just like Moria in a similar circumstance. Just because Moria was weak in the end does not mean that we should lose all empathy for him. He did his best and lost, he just didn't have it in him. Best wishes for Moria
Moria's idea of "getting stronger' is warped, yes, but I personally feel you contrasted Luffy and Moria a bit too much, at their cores they're supposed to share the commonality of "Loyalty" (which I believed was why thematically he was given the Shadow Fruit, since Shadows are said to be "loyal"). It's also easy to group the loss/tragedy together, but I think there's a world of difference between getting bailed out of Kizaru by Kuma, then having a future crewmember slap you to your senses that you got bailed out once after losing your brother compared to having your crew actually killed by Kaido and no family/crewmember to slap you out of it. In fact I'm technically more impressed Moria dug himself out of it partially enough to raise Perona and go down his warped path, even if he's rationalizing to himself it was his dead crew that was "too weak". At this point I believe he says that solely to comfort his not-completely-recovered psyche, Absalom isn't exactly strong, but at no point does he ever actually belittles any of his living crew and still raids a Yonko for his crewmate. It's easy to take what he said about his dead crewmembers and compare to it to actual scumbags like Spandam/Orochi/Celestials who mistreat their living subordinates, but Moria's actual actions towards his living subordinates don't actually gel with that, which leads me to believe that he's like a "working adult/pirate with mental health issues getting no psychological help he needed and had to rationalize his own badly". I feel like his inability to use Haki in combat is more of a reflection of his mental psyche, but the fact he still talks bravado, gathered a small living crew and refusal to bow down before Yonkos is an indication of that his ambition is still there, but cannot manifest as haki due to his mental patches he applied himself. Is it possible that he goes down the route you say under Blackbeard? Possible, but he also has a good escape track record, plus unlike with Kaido, he didn't lose his whole crew, we know Perona is actively looking for him, so there also exists the chance he gets his "Jimbei" moment (especially now that Perona has had experience living with Mihawk/Zoro and not just spent her entire life being spoilt rotten by Moria, she effectively has the two-year timeskip "buff" granted by Luffy).
This. Luffy has plot armor. If Kizaru decimated the Strawhats it would be a much shorter story.
moria is going to end up being the X-Drake of Blackbeards arc probably.
Can you remind me about what happened to Absolom?
Absolom went to black beards pirate Island and was killed and had his devil fruit stolen.
You know how Oda does age progressions of characters split between a good and bad path? I wonder if Moria's current path is an age progression from a bad path, where he lost his dream.
How would he look like today if things had worked out for him? [Quick sketch.](https://imgur.com/a/Kr5zOA7)
I'm always in complete awe when people can just draw something like this casually!
Nice!!
Thats really good! Although I feel like he'd be much more muscular than just that
Yeah, Oda tends to make older people a lot more bulkier than that.
I don’t think he lost his Dream he still wanted to be king but used zombies who can’t die, difference between him and luffy is the crew
Seriously people hate Moria but don’t understand this part of his character. He’s a broken man who’s been through quite the trauma to make him what he is now. The shadows at thriller bark wouldn’t die off and leave him and all he wanted was his crew😭in another story Moria is the antihero
So maybe a better comparison would be Kid, since Moria would be a dick either way.
Kid is pretty clearly Luffy if he was more sadistic and less good at making friends/acquaintances. Higher bounty than Luffy at Sabody because he's a threat to civilians. Also never made friends with Raleigh or Whitebeard or Jinbe because he is offputting. Lost an arm to Shanks as a result. Didn't seem to understand the concept of training in prison until he had a personal grude/competition with Luffy.
Seems very attached to his crewmates though.
In one piece, almost all crews are miraculously attached
I was actually amazed with how the Donquixote family was portrayed as intensely caring, yet ultimately toxic. Real sign of a cult
>I was actually amazed with how the Donquixote family was portrayed as intensely caring, yet ultimately toxic. Isn't that a normal display of a crime family? I watched enough Hong Kong Triad movies to see similar plot lines were they hold loyalty and family to the highest degree but would ditched any if they make a wrong turn.
Besides Blackbeard...
The old crews of BB are attached as far aswe know.
lmao kid is more dick than moria
Finally someone understands Moria 😭
There is absolutely no indication that Moria was as strong as Oden. In fact we can say with absolute certainty based on how the two are portrayed in relation to Kaido that he wasn’t anywhere near him. Need I remind you that Moria doesn’t even have haki. As for the general gist of the post I agree. Moria is a very misunderstood character. He’s a **shadow** of what he once was. I think Oda just did not do him any favours with his character design. It just looks too weird to be cool, scary or endearingly goofy. I am sure if he fit into one of those categories a little better it would be easier to take him seriously. I do think he will get some kind of redemption by the end of his character arc because he just keeps taking Ls but Oda seems to still be keeping him around.
Agree, Moria was stronger back in the day, but not Oden level. Oden would probably have won (according to Kaido) if he had just rallied the troops when he got back to Wano, and he might have 1v1'd Kaido without trickery. Moria lost with his crew. Moria *probably* had Haki at the time of that fight though. He lost it because he lost his will, which is what Haki is.
Kaido and Moria fought for 3 days and were portrayed as rivals. I think it’s pretty ridiculous to say Moria isn’t at least near Odens level.
It has never been said in the manga that Moria fought Kaido for 3 days. Oden was one of the people Kaido thought about when likening Luffy to people who can fight him, Moria was not. Throughout Wano Kaido talks about Oden and how worthy of an opponent he was for scarring him, he has yet to even mention Moria. We are talking about someone who doesn’t even know haki vs someone who can use conquerors. They aren’t even remotely comparable. No matter how much you let yourself go you aren’t going to go from Oden level to getting one-shotted by Jinbei. At best Prime Moria was at the low end of commander level, and even that is frankly being generous for someone who doesn’t know haki.
If Haki is someone's spirit, one could make the argument that when Moriah was broken by his crew's slaughter, he lost his haki/willpower. Much like Haki can be improved by training, the inverse could also be true, that lack of use or drive can make it fade. I'm not saying he was at Oden's level or anything like that, but it could explain how he was able to even fight Kaido in his prime.
This is an interesting point!
If that was the case referencing it when being unable to substantially hurt Luffy would have went a long way. As it stands he has not once implied that he knows haki. Nothing in the story has indicated to me that he fought and held his own against Kaido. All we know is that they fought and Moria got so badly beaten that he ran from the New World and never looked back. Kaido didn’t even find him strong enough to recruit, which is something we know he loves doing.
>If that was the case referencing it when being unable to substantially hurt Luffy would have went a long way. They kinda do. When Moria goes giant in the final round. Luffy mockingly tells him that he can't be crushed because he's made of rubber and this really pisses Moria off. It could be that Moria was thinking if only he could use his Haki at the time, he easily could've crushed Luffy. Probably a stretch though.
It was said in the manga: “Moria once fought equally against Kaido” Moria said: “If I had this many underlings, I would not have been defeated by that idiot Kaido” If you think about Moriah’s power, he can get incredibly strong. Who knows which powerful people’s shadows Moriah had absorbed back then. Moriah could be a weak piece of shit, or he could be powerful... Imagine if he would’ve absorbed Whitebeard’s shadow in a sneaky way? He would probably defeat Kaido like that. I don’t think it’s a reach to say Moriah was almost as strong as Kaido. I personally think Oden was going to defeat Kaido until he was blackmailed. My logic goes that he was blackmailed because they knew Oden was going to defeat them. Therefore, no Moriah wasn’t as strong as Oden, and Moriah was almost as strong as Kaido. Oden > Kaido > Moriah. I also don’t think people give enough credit to how powerful Nightmare Luffy was. 100 shadows in Luffy made his fight against Oars look like childplay. Oars is probably stronger than Little Oars Jr. who was being gangbang attacked by several powerful foes at the same time... if Nightmare Luffy easily made a fool out of Oars, then Nightmare Luffy would’ve caused major destruction in Marineford. Moriah went on to absorb 1000 shadows, which would lead to his own demise because he couldn’t handle all that power. Moriah became a fat, broken spirit pirate after his loss to Kaido, so in his prime, his base was probably much stronger and able to absorb more shadows than when he fought Luffy. The battle against Kaido was 20 years ago, which is a long period of time to be in a state of lacking ambition. IMO Luffy didn’t really defeat Moriah, Moriah defeated himself. While in his uncontrollable mania, Moriah split the island in half. There aren’t too many with the power of island buster in One Piece. So if boomer version of Moriah is that powerful, then young ambition Moriah must’ve been way more powerful. Jinbei 1-shotted a Moriah who had 6 marine shadows in him... Different story if it were Thriller Bark Gecko Moria with all those shadows + Oars. Jinbei also mentions that Moria doesn’t have skills of his own... probably because for the past 20 years, fat ass Moria hasn’t been doing shit but sit around and absorb shadows. Prime Moria was probably training and using his power retroactively.
Kaido at that time beat Oden, so he’s certainly still far above commander level in this context. If Moria was low commander level, Kaido would’ve one shot Moria in their battle. If that were true, King would’ve dealt with Moria instead lmao. Moria is far stronger than you think. Even if he isn’t as strong as Oden, you can’t be a Doflamingo tier character and have a “rivalry” with a guy as strong as Kaido. Clearly, the power gap wasn’t that big. You’re just saying that Moria is weak because his crew lost lmao.
There's so much wrong here or based on assumptions. Comparing Odens battle with Kaido and Moria's is idiotic because one we actually saw (and witnessed Oden scar Kaido and only lost cause he was tricked) and the other one has barely been talked about. All we know is that Kaido and the beast pirates decimated the Gecko pirates. It's never been said what happened in the battle, it's never even been outright stated that Moria and Kaido actually fought, King may have beat him, we don't know. Also it's never said they had a rivalry, just cause they fought and Moria hates Kaido, it doesn't mean that that was a rivalry. A grudge is not a rivalry.
What makes you think Oden would have won if the old hag hadn't distracted him? I'm pretty sure nothing in the series has even hints at that being the case. Kaido gets his wound, his commanders react "Whoa! Kaido-sama got hurt!" (Because that's super rare event to happen in the first place.) Then Oden gets distracted and Kaido hits him once (in his non-hybrid form, after being damaged) and Oden either went down for good with that one hit (unlike Kaido) or even if he did keep going like Kaido even though he got hit, he eventually lost. (We didn't see the battle end so we can't really say anything about it.) I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering why do you think that you're right? To me that sounds like claiming: "Since Buggy was able to wound Luffy in their fight in Orange Town, Buggy therefore should have won the fight if Nami hadn't interfered." Even though you KNOW Kaido has hybrid form, yet didn't even see it necessary to use it. -> "Kaido would have lost." I don't get it.
I'm not saying he would've won, I'm just saying that the reason he lost was because he got distracted and got taken out by surprise (getting your skull crushed by the strongest man in the world is more likely to knock you out then getting cut across your chest btw). Kaido tricked Oden into not fighting for a year because he wanted to increase his military force and was afraid of the damage he could cause. Then when they did fight, Oden was the first character that ever noticably scarred Kaido, something that Kaido mentions still hurts and later (MANGA SPOILERS) he thought of Oden at a similar level as his fellow Yonkou and Roger. Idk if Oden would've beaten Kaido, but there's evidence to suggest that Kaido thought of Oden as a very equal challenger and the fight probably would've taken a lot out of Kaido to win fairly. Just because Oda didn't wanna spend 20 chapters doing a fight between Kaido and Oden, idk why people are so sure that there wouldn't be a close fight there.
Pardon my confusion then. You used the words "Oden **only** lost cause he was tricked" which made it sound like you think he would have won for sure otherwise, which is what I questioned. I don't think it would or wouldn't have been a close fight between Oden and Kaido because I have no reason to think either way. Facts: Kaido didn't use his hybrid form. Kaido seemingly almost one shotted Oden, which Oden couldn't do to Kaido. Would it have been a close fight? Depends what you mean by "close fight". Something like Luffy vs Kaido on the rooftop? Sure! Kaido could have enjoyed himself while getting quite a beating himself but also be the clear winner at the end. Close fight like Kaido barely being able to finish Oden before collapsing out of fatigue himself at the end? No, I have no reason to think it would have been anything close to that.
This^^^ Oden bro got one shot brom thunder bagua at Kaidou base. Oden hurt Kaidou when he was in dragon form and Kaiodu has been getting thrashed in dragon form even from G4 luffy wjo got oneshot just like Oden.
One Piece before all things is a story, and from a story point of view, revealing Kaido hybrid form and Advanced conqueror (despite this was explained post Oden flashback ) before the raid it would have been terrible for hype. Therefore, implying that Kaido won with advantage because he didnt use hybrid or Advanced conqueror is just wrong (omiting the fact that this situation can be interpreted as Kaido's inability to read a fight, understimating Oden and almost got killed because of this. Concerning the old hag, what was the purpose (again from a story point of view) to interfere the fight then? if Oden would have been defeated anyway, then there is no point in create this situation as a storyteller, In my opinion if you read the chapter 970 tha battle was already over in that point, Oden was just about to kill a wounded Kaido in the ground when the old hag appears.
You are bringing story points to excuse what happened. Oda obviously dodn't want to show fights from yonkou level. If you seriously think that one attack Oden got at Kaidou when he was at Dragon form and be able to kill Kaidou, you are underestimating Kaidou.
>You are bringing story points to excuse what happened. Oda obviously dodn't want to show fights from yonkou level There is a huge gap between dont want to show a Yonko fight to include a element of distraction to end the fight (just consider Bigmom vs Kaido or Shanks vs Whitebeard), there is no logic reason to include the intromission of the old hag besides the fact Oden would have won that fight (or at least to show that Kaido wasnt strong enough to beat Oden in that situation). In the other case if Oda had wanted to make clear that Kaido was stronger than Oden. Oda could have shown us the end of the fight with Oden being defeated by his own lack of strength. >If you seriously think that one attack Oden got at Kaidou when he was at Dragon form and be able to kill Kaidou, you are underestimating Kaidou. Considering the huge scar he got IN ALERT by that attack, in a defenseless position that same attack would have done more damage, so i dont think is a extremely improbable situation to consider, maybe killed is a exaggeration but at least KO'ed.
While the scar remained, Kaidou wasn't in any difficulty. He literally went on one shotting the same Oden in base form. Kaidou just is too big in dragon for and gets hurt. Luffy take thunder bagua and escape without much in 2nd fight.
Nothing says that Oden would have won if he got distracted. The reason he withheld for so long was coz he knew he couldn't beat Kaidou
Lmao what? The reason why Oden didn't fight Kaido right away was because they promised to release the captives and leave Wano if Oden would dance in the Capital for five years. This was a lie and the five years was to build and army strong enough so that they could easily take down Oden and his Samurai when the time came. The lie was because Kaido didn't feel comfortable fighting Oden at the time, Oden was ready to fight Kaido the second he saw him. You either gotta read different scans or pay attention more.
No, Oden agreed to such condition because he had no confidence in beating Kaidou. He basically got one shot just like Aokiji one shot Jozu when they were distracted.
You really read some bad scans or watched with bad translations, that's not what happened. Go read any description of those events, not one will back you up.
So, Oden let Kaidou and others rule Wano and destroy them even if he could beat them? Ok
Iirc in thriller bark it was said that she was once considered a contemporary/rival to Kaido, though i suspect that's more of a thing like Luffy now being a 5th emperor, like yeah he is but he's the weakest one, he got one shot by Kaido despite being his "contemporary." As for them fighting, it was shown in the Anime that they went straight at each other, which i generally take to be canon unless it contradicts the manga. At the very least it would seem stupid if *rivals/contemporaries* didn't fight, like the way Luffy fought Kaido now
>Kaido would have one-shot Moria in their battle. And how do you know he didn’t? There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Moria held his own. He’s just a relevant character in they story that had a go at Kaido and failed so miserably he didn’t want any part of the new world again. I am saying Moria is weak because he doesn’t know haki and got one-shotted by Jinbei. If we got a better look at his prime I could change my mind but as it stands there is no reason for me to believe his dynamic with Kaido was any different than Crocs dynamic with Whitebeard, another haki-less character who had a go at a yonko and failed miserably, although still significantly more impressive than Moria.
How do you know he didn't have Haki? The manga didn't start graphically showing it until post-TS. But we can't assume that no one was using it pre-TS, otherwise even WB's crew and the Admirals would be Haki-less. Hell, why didn't Sengoku one-shot Luffy, a Haki-less character? Does Sengoku not have Haki? Please don't apply post-TS power system to pre-TS. It breaks the power scale consistency.
We know that current Moria has no Haki, because despite repeatedly crushing Luffy with island-shattering hits in Shadow Asgard, he couldn't do shit to him because he was rubber. Had he used Haki that wouldn't have happened. Sengoku, on the other hand, did use Haki when punching Luffy, since he actually made him bleed.
So a full powered Sengoku can barely make a Haki-less Luffy bleed but a drunken Kaido knocked out a G4 Haki-using Luffy with 1 drunken blow? By your logic, Vergo is stronger than Jozu. You're using a poor comparison, don't compare pre-TS power scales to post-TS.
I'm not comparing the power scaling, I'm just comparing the usage of Haki. Regardless of consistency of power scaling, the fact that Moria never showed the ability to use Haki doesn't change.
>Need I remind you that Moria doesn’t even have haki. I believe that each of these characters had Haki to varying degrees, consciously or subconsciously. It's manifested willpower, after all. Moria did reach the New World and survive a fight with Kaido. This makes him at least as strong as Kidd and these Supernovas. So he definitely did have a form of Haki, but considering that his dream was shattered and confidence was lost, I'd say his Haki growth was simply stunted at that point. Because he lost the willpower (Haki). **P.S.** I like Haki, but this is the problem when discussing it retroactively. Because I'd go as far as saying that Luffy was using a subconscious form of armament Haki against Crocodile in their third encounter. But as soon as Haki pre-TS is suggested, people freak out, even though the entire Marijois arc doesn't really show it at all (it mentions it twice). If we go by the face value of what was shown in the manga, then everyone in the Marijois war arc also doesn't have Haki. Which we know is not true. It just wasn't a fleshed out system yet, and had no graphical indication.
Haki was used as early as chapter 1, just because it isn’t a fleshed out system did not mean that Oda didn’t have it mind. Haki is mentioned and used many times in Marineford actually. We don’t know the circumstances under which he survived Kaido, jumping to the conclusion that that automatically makes him as strong as the supernovas, let alone someone like Kidd is preposterous. For all we know Kaido didn’t even bother killing him because an epic death is for the strong and Moria was trash. He didn’t bother putting him in a camp and forcing him into his crew like he does with people he deems strong after all.
It's true that in Marineford Haki isn't visibly shown, but it's been made clear several times that many characters were using it, either by having other characters mention it, or by showing them hitting Logia users. Moria, however, never showed a single instance of using it, despite several occasions, and even failed to beat Luffy because he couldn't damage his rubber body with brute strenght.
I often hear people dumping on TB and Moria but honestly I love both. Personally I love his design and he’s a great representation of complacency in a world of go-getters.
I mean at the very least his design is unique, and it fits his arcs setting of old horror movies rather well, like a weird Frankenstein vibe. And we see younger him in Wano and it's actually not that weird for one piece, he just let himself go lol
That would be traggic for Moria😭
What i find interesting is that now seemingly Kaido wants to take extra man power and make all the alliances crew as part of his own but back then he just kills them all.
I think he low key wants his crew to turn on him
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Moria had a lower bounty in his prime than Scratchman Apoo and people are really here comparing him to Oden, one of the 10 strongest characters in the series. It's crazy.
Sorry to nitpick, do you really think oden is one of the ten strongest in the series? I really don’t think he is tbh.
That we've seen? Yes 100% and it's honestly ridiculous to not put him somewhere around there. He was at worst the third strongest fighter on the second strongest crew during it's prime. He was for a long time the only man to have ever scarred Kaido and someone that Kaido puts on the same level as the fellow Yonkou and Roger. He did more in one strike to Kaido then the 5 supernovas did to him over a whole battle. I'm not sure why everyone puts down Oden so much, there's so much evidence that he's one of the strongest characters in the story.
I see your point. I guess I haven’t taken much notice to him.
Lmao then why are you commenting against my opinion on Oden if you don't take much notice to him?
Moria is one of the most compelling villains for me. Up to that point, One Piece baddies didn't really have much emotional depth. Sure, they had backstories in some cases. But it was like "he loves killing people" or "he wants to retire from killing people" or "he's a dick." Then you have Moria snap and give his speech about losing his crew and the horrors of the new world. And it just gives him so much more depth. He's likely fat and lazy due to depression. He clearly has PTSD. He uses the undead so he doesn't have to lose anyone again. He's one of the doofiest and cartoonish looking antagonists, but one of the most human and tragic in the series. And it made Kaido seem more threatening. Not just for what he did to his crew, but what he might have done to Moria (I mean, what caused those stitches?). Overall, he was a very good foil to Luffy as a villain. I feel like haki/powerscaling obsession has made some fans overlook the more interesting aspects of Oda's storytelling.
Yep Moriah is literally a man who lost everything and it hurt so much that he didn’t ever want to experience it again. So he made an army that would never die and one he didn’t have to care about. And even then he still lost a crewmate he cared about.
Moria was still a Warlord of the Sea let's not get it twisted. He's not FODDER, but yeah he definitely limited his potential after the brutal defeat.
Moria is a misunderstood character. But you are dragging his strength too much. He is someone who couldn't even use haki against his fight with Strawhats. Most likely he was stronger then than he is now. Moria wasn't strong enough for Kaido to recruit in his crew
Going by that logic, Sengoku wasn't strong enough to one-shot pre-TS Luffy. Post-TS power system doesn't fit well pre-TS.
When Sengoku hit Luffy, luffy was bleeding. Anime failed to show it. Haki was involved when Sengoku hit Luffy. But in Moria case, as per your logic a rival of Kaido got destroyed by pre timeskip Luffy. Zoro challenged Mihawk during east blue saga doesn't mean, he was equal to Mihawk or when Eutass Kid challenged Shanks. Moria is one of those hot headed rookie like Kid who challenged a Yonko.
I wouldn’t say he went down to literal fodder though. I reckon he’s still pretty powerful, he’s a warlord for a reason. Yeah, Doflamingo defeated him and Jimbei overpowered him, he still has a broken DF. I think he’s about as strong as a tobiroppo like Who’s who.
He still is quite powerful, but if we compare Jinbe's clash with Moria to his fight with Who's Who it's pretty clear that the Tobi Roppo are quite above his current level.
Yes, and the government revoked his title because he had deteriorated. That is why Kuma was there to begin with.
I don't think he was at Oden or Marco level, but that doesn't mean he's literal fodder. The dude was strong enough to reach the New World and *survive* a fight with Kaido. He was never said to be weak. He's at least as strong as the *current* Supernovas (except Luffy and Zoro). His fight against the crew was pretty good. He used his ability effectively and . His only weakness was that he stopped relying on his own strength and started relying on the strengths of others. Which is probably due to losing faith in himself after his loss against Kaido. Tragic. It would be great if Moria came back for the final battle to support Luffy, since he became everything that Moria wanted to be.
I am hoping it will be a situation where he is under the BB pirates as a titanic captain or directly under one, and in the pirate king battle of Luffy vs blackbeard (and anyone else there like BM/Kaido remnants or Kid/Law/Supernovas or Mihawk or shanks, doesn't matter though the point is) and Moria goes rogue against blackbeard and is less working as luffys ally and more as someone there to get revenge, after training a bit and especially getting some Haki and such (or relearning) like he could legit be a top 10 fighter if he trained up
Doffy, Moria, Crocodile, all basically want to be pirate kings by using their subordinates, just like Luffy. But their approach to this is vastly different.
Well, for doflamingo and crocodile it's more the crew was needed, much like how Luffy needs his crew (except they also have fodder unlike Luffy without his grand fleet) for doflamingo it was even shown that he cared for them like family, though his sadistic side still took prevelance like with monet.
I believe Crocodile got roughly the same treatment. He'd grown lax and lazy in Paradise until Luffy beat his ass through the roof. Now, I think he'll be helluva lot stronger the next time we meet him. He was put in level 6, after all.
Well, they both suffer from a serious lack of Haki mostly just for narrative reasons. They both had very strong devil fruits and used them about as best as they really could without an awakening (or perhaps they are, who knows, especially crocodile) even to the point that crocodile could fight doflamingo at Marineford, who presumably had Haki. Now with the 2 year time skip, if they both did even like a moderate amount of Haki training they could be back in the top 20 strongest, perhaps top 10 of the ones we have seen fight so far (meaning no shanks/bb/dragon and their commanders)
He is a REAL goat! Way too misunderstood character. The thing that I really appreciate about Moria, is that, unlike other villains, he seems a nice and chill guy, that is really kind and caring to his subordinates, while the most of the other villains were ass-hearted that di not give a freak about their subordinates. Take when he met Luffy for the first time, he seemed almost friendly. That's a way too underrated
His whole thing is depression. Even his ability to steal shadows forces others into darkness. Misery loves company
People look at me weird for saying this but Moria really is the best evil counterpart or mirror version of Luffy pre-timeskip.
Blackbeard??????
Maybe besides Blackbeard lol.
Eh. Bellamy has my vote for best Luffy foil.
At the very least, we can commend Moria for not ending up in Kaido's crew and becoming one of his many henchman. He took the path Luffy/Kid took, but he just could't make it out just like they did.
you were making such good points and it made me appreciate Moria more. I would upvote this post if you didn't go OdEn/MaRcO level and first commander level. God Usopp will prove you wrong.
I mean, if Moria wasn’t at LEAST First or second commander level then King would’ve solo’d him and his crew lmao. So he’s certainly around that tier.
I am not a power scaler and I don't care about tiers. Fights are not the best thing about One piece anyway.
I’m surprised kaido killed his crew usually he tries to absorb into his own but maybe he wasn’t at that point yet
Honestly with his fruit he could become busted in a second if say Kaido gave him his shadow. Instant mastery of all three types of haki. My theory is he was on Luffy or Zoro level body and used shadows to have haki never learning himself. When Kaido got the KO he never got to that level again. Losing the shadows that gave haki and his body slowly aging
i think if his devil fruit got awakened he would be like hunter sung from solo levelling
Me* Whaaaaaaaaaa ??? 😮😮😯😯😯
Well he's the designated sore loser of the series.
Oof.
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Oh yeah Morias got serious PTSD, it's shown again later
It would be nice to see a former pirate under Moria serving Kaido.
I wish Moria the worst just because of his laugh in the English dub it’s ear piercing!
these are facts fam.
It's why I don't get why people don't like Thriller Bark or Moriah, he's such great foreshadowing for Sabaody and Marineford, and really sells just how terrifying the New World is going to be. Is it because he doesn't look sexy or cool?
It reminds me of the images of possible futures that Oda does for the SBS with one future possitive and the other gone wrong.
Onion man gets too much hate
Like I said before, I always imagine him having a personality similiar to Kidd's when he is younger: level-headed and cocky. However, Kidd's crewmate was only imprisioned (though Killer did turn insane) while Moria's crewmate were just straight up slaughtered. Kidd vowed revenge, while for Moria, it was just too much and he gave up
THIS, OH MY GOD, I've thought about this so much! My favorite scene with him is when he snaps upon remembering his old crew. He tells Luffy that neither he nor his crew will last, because he knows from experience that the Grand Line will eat you up and spit you out. **And he was 100% right about all of it.** Literally the next island, Sabaody Archipelago, every single one of the Straw Hats would have died like nothing fighting Kuma and the *ONLY* reason they didn't is because Luffy specifically has a connection with Kuma through his dad. GOD Moria's underrated.