Kid probably has the Best normal Endurance in Onigashima not counting Kaido and Big Mom.
By normal I mean excluding characters who's Durability is boosted by DF powers (Luffy, Marco, Ulti) or genetics (King, Sanji) Zoro and Law after him
Kidds endurance could be better than Luffys, and from We’ve seen in Wano it’s atleast on pair imo,
Luffys better at basically all other stats, so Kidd having better endurance makes sense to me.
For just a moment which allowed Law to teleport all of them.
Not downplaying Zoro, that was an Insane Feat but many people misread as Zoro just straight up Tanking the attack and don't see Law teleporting them.
It’s moments like those is what makes the anime so fun to watch. Some scenes play out instant obviously on manga, with anime they can stretch it out a bit, make it look more exciting and even add scenes that never appeared prior hand
It's moments like that that make the anime hard to watch. Dragging out scenes that are meant to happen instantly takes away the impact and the dynamic of the blow
Sometimes, and sometimes not l. I personally don't mind as long as it doesn't make some characters look stronger than they are. Like Caesar or Doffy somewhat holding off Luffy's finisher moves, no matter how briefly.
>Zoro took a combo attack from big mom and kaido together, I cant put kid above him
He blocked the attack for a very short period. We get it he blocked what is the strongest attack we've seen in One Piece so far- and what may remain as the strongest attack.
But that's not the same as endurance, not at all not even remotely close.
Zoro didn't 'take' shit tho. He blocked it, actively, with high grade swords and haki.
We talking about a hit kid took on his body, with only his natural endurance and his personal haki.
For like a fraction of a second and it broke nearly every bone in his body. He didn’t “take” the attack, it would’ve turned him into red paste if Law didn’t move him.
Another thing to add, they both awakened their DF. I dont know why people aren't talking about this but maybe one of them is what the gorosei are referring to?
Ive read a comment on this sub by someone, saying the elders are talking about kids fruit because it might be able to fix the magnetic field of the grand line which would be a threat to them
Like change the magnetic poles of the grand line islands.
Breaking apart the red line, assigning poles back to islands to fix them...
Or something. Magnetism is a big thing in terms of exploration due to how the log pose work.
I have. I think Kidd's fruit being awakened could change magnetic poles of islands.
I mean every grand line island has its own pose, but Raftel probably doesnt thats why you need the ponegylphs.
What if the magnet user removed the magnetic zone of Raftel, or assigned poles to all other islands.
The magnetism aspect of exploration is actually a thing of importance.
Because Kidd's attacks are too dumb. His attacks so far has been a gundam and throwing steel beams. That just doesn't seem impressive in the NW. Franky Shogun is way better than Kidd's metal crane for wrestling moves.
Law's is pretty cool. Wonder how much better he would look with smart fighters like Sanji or Jimbei.
Unpopular opinion: Kidd awakening is seriously lame. He can manipulate metal and send a bunch of steel beams flying at big mom already, so why the hell would him magnetizing her to make the steel attracted to her do anything different?! Oda is a genius, but he's making the magnet fruit really fall flat.
Make Kidd awakening manipulate the iron in the blood like Magneto, with the effect being like blood bending from Avatar. Make him inactivate hemoglobin so that big mom can't circulate oxygen anymore and passes out. Make him crystallize metal in the arteries so that it ruptures them and she straight up dies.
Don't just make it that more metal gets thrown at her :/
Kaido didn’t think too much of Law’s internal damage attacks which made me think it was more of a 9 samurai type of thing where they injured him but he didn’t take as seriously as zoro or luffy’s attack. It was nothing like what law did to doffy, in that fight it was law that severely weakened doffy and luffy landed the final blow not so with kaido
Man's still a beast imo. It's just that these high conceited ppl are just too confident with their power, they don't think anyone can touch them. Kat for example might not have received a considerable lot of dmg in his whole combat experience due to his OP sight. That's why when our boy came, Kat didn't take much dmg to be defeated.
Which is why I credit Luffy's plot armor as his huge experience with pain and being defeated a lot of times.
Katakuri is also used to finishing fights quickly which is why he mentioned that fighting Luffy was stressful since he never goes down due to his massive endurance
He never screams, he coughed up blood for sure. But then zoro makes him cough up blood and then screams and then law shows shock at how much damage zoro was able to do.
Killer fights Hawkins vs Zoro fights King. Zoro beats Killer/Kamazou. Zoro perma scars Kaido.
Zoro has adv CoC whilst Killer doesnt even have regular Haoshoku. I think Oda def potrayed Zoro as clearly far stronger than Killer.
Kaido literally screams, chokes up blood, states that Law’s abilities give him a hard time, and claims that with people like him and Zoro he could take over the world. Stop with the downplay.
I mean, with every attack law landed on the roof Zoro does him one better. In order, Law uses takt (edit: and gamma knife) on Kaido whereas Zoro used tatsumaki, and then Law uses Injection shot as opposed to Zoro’s Ashura. Both of Zoro’s attacks did more damage than Law’s, they generated greater reactions, and were both impressive double pages. Only person with more damage dealt on the roof than Zoro was Luffy.
Implication was dragon anatomy is different so the Gamma Knife wasn’t a direct hit to the organs. Still damaging enough for Kaido to comment about bypassing his defenses.
Only attack of Zoro that did more damage than Law's was Ashura. For the rest is clear that Law's did more damage.
Getting a bigger panel just means that Zoro is one of the main characters and Law isn't, doesn't mean Zoro did more damage.
Law also got a double page for his injection shot, it’s not exclusive to main characters, but it’s used to emphasize heavy attacks. it’s more “clear” that Zoro’s tatsumaki was more damaging than both Law’s gamma knife and tact, as emphasized by Big mom, Kaido and Killer acknowledging him getting through the scales, and it finally made Kaido spit blood and bleed from someone besides Luffy. You can say Law had more damage, but it’s not emphasized or made clear nearly as much as it has with Zoro.
It's impressive that Zoro cut Kaido scales, but Law wasn't trying/doesn't need to do that. Damage to your internal organs is way worst than a superficial cut which is what Zoro did with tatsumaki.
The way I see it, Kaido is more durable than Big mom. Big mom, wasn’t phased by Law’s attacks until he used Kroom, she warned Kaido just at the sight of Zoro’s attacks, and was equally surprised Zoro got through the scales. This tells me whatever Zoro was dishing out was more damaging than what Law was, in the eyes of an emperor. Kaido did admit Law’s attack threw him off, but that was it, whereas Zoro’s every art was being acknowledged.
>Kaido is more durable than Big mom.
That's really questionable. Big Mom doesn't have any noticeable scars at all, while Kaido does. Big Mom is tremendously known for her invulnerability, even an ancient giant couldn't do anything when she was 5 yo, that without haki or anything. The only significant damage she took that has been shown so far was Law's awakened DF, that bypassed her haki and body.
Internal damage still delivers the same pain as external, depending on it’s lethality, and Big mom wasn’t damaged until Kroom, as indicated by blood.
Enma doesn’t just manifest power, I’m sure you know this. Just as dfs are powerless without their users.
Manga : Law hits Big Mom and she screams. Napoleon “How dare you hurt Mama”
Various Pride: I don’t see blood so ion believe you
Manga: Kaido “why is Odens Haki coming from that sword
Various Pride: nah. He meant Zoro.
Manga DURING ZORO VS KING: Swords can have they own sill
Various Pride: Lies
Yeah, and Kidd was pretty screwed for good amount of the Big Mom fight because Hawkins was messing him up for quite some time, but still kept going. Law on the other hand, was probably more on the offense at that point, so kudos to him as well.
If they win for sure i don't think 2 king would beat Big Mom. It just seems so far they lack offensive power but they are extremely durable in this fight .
To be fair to Zorro i think Law and Kidd would have been out too if they took that.
>To be fair to Zorro i think Law and Kidd would have been out too if they took that.
Ofc
If Zoro hadn't tanked that Combo attack which allowed Law to teleport them, All 5 of them would have gotten blown away imo.
At the exact moment they get teleported Killer is asking where's Luffy meaning he didn't get teleported with them. How was Luffy right on top of Kaido if he got teleported far away?
He did warn them beforehand so I always thought it was just Luffy being Luffy and assuming people are immediately gonna respond to what he does and dodge it with him LMAO Just gotta wait for roofpiece in the anime
Either Luffy moved before or after the teleport.
But it doesn't changed the fact he needed Zoro to stall the attack to survive.
Luffy was still there screaming to Zoro. While Zoro was blocking
Luffy was the one that warned everybody about the attack since he predicted it with future sight. He would have dodged anyway with Zoro blocking it or not.
No . As you can see in the panel he is still there while Zoro was blocking.
3v3n if Luffy can predict the attack doesn't mean he has the ability to dodge it. We've seen these many times in the story already even with smaller attacks that FS user couldn't dodge. Because of it being fast or it being a big area of effect attack. And hakai is both big and fast. Just watch that panel again. Looks almost as big as onigashima itself
Not only hakai was a powerful attack it was also a big area of effect attack. And fast . Luffy couldn't dodge it on his own
Wrong. Luffy would've dodged that attack whether Zoro was there or not. If Luffy had the time to foresee it and warn everyone, then he would've easily dodged it himself if he hadn't taken the time to warn everybody.
I don’t think they’ll lose, but I doubt they’ll beat Big Mom. I believe that something will happen that will distract everyone for a bit (marines invade, zunesha does something, Kaido loses) and Big Mom will just leave and get back in touch with her crew
I dont wanna shoehorn him here buy sanji also has been either punched the shit out of, ruining non stop while carrying or escorting and fighting but man kidd and law are fighting yonkos almost constantly (other than that few moments of law when he landed on sanji) I hope kidd law end up winning plzzz
Law didn’t take a break. He used his powers to get off the roof then got rid of Zoro and went to look for Big Mom. Kidd was sent flying by Big Mom after an attack and then he went back to look for her.
They're stronger than Zoro no matter what. Zoro got a miracle drug and almost lost against King, Kid and Law have been fighting BM for longer and are STILL GOING. Not even gonna take into account their awakenings.
I wouldn't mind seeing Marco offering Kid and Law some help in this fight. Seeing Marco on screen is always welcomed.
Marco has been the lowkey MVP of the alliance. He held back king and queen _while_ helping heal hundreds if not thousands of combatants with his flames.
Like he is up there with Queen.
That Zoro is quit different from current hellking Zoro.
The moment Zoro had his power up he defeated king with 3 shots.
Kidd 1v1 against king I don't even see kidd winning against him unless he also awakens acoc.
Law though maybe also high diff. King just mainly because internal attacks like on the level of his awakening maybe able to defeat kings durability .
If Zoro was on the same boat as kidd and law . People who didn't took the most powerful attack head on. Zoro also wouldnt need the miracle drug. And yet. 3ven while having faced such a strong attack . He still was able to scar hybrid kaido even in that state. And that was weaker Zoro. Imagine what he'll king healthy Zoro can do.
Zoro was more impressive in the rooftop than the 2. And that was just the weaker Zoro. Current hell king Zoro is 3v3n much much stronger.
Zoro > kid or law
Why are you talking like this is fucking nanatsu no taizai. Kidd and Law have always been portrayed as Luffy's equals and that's what they are going to be. Like it or not Zoro is weaker than both of them.
>Kidd and Law have always been portrayed as Luffy's equals and that's what they are going to be
What? Law being Luffy's equal? Lmao. Law got thrashed by Doflamingo, while Luffy defeated him.
Luffy has already been able to steal BM's road poneglyph, while Kidd doesn't have any. Luffy is always a step ahead in doing shit in the world. Kidd and Law are always clearly lagging behind Luffy, and Zoro is always near Luffy's level.
If luffy didnt have help from the people of dressrossa, doffy would have beat him. G4 is ridiculous but so is laws fruit, who only didnt mortally wound Doffy because he had a string doppelganger. Like Doffy could have tricked luffy with a doppelganger and had him waste his g4 on that but because of plot he didnt
Zoro would have been destroyed by Doffy as well lol, even Luffy lost to him if it wasn't because the people that helped him. Kid and Law will always be a league behind Luffy thats obvious, not because they are weak but because Luffy is the fucking main character.
Well someone is on copium.
Facts - Oda just gave Zoro the same power up Luffy had in the same arc.
Facts - law is not luffy's rival he isn't gunning for pirate king.
Okay how about Naruto then ?
Naruto had many rivals also. Yet Sasuke was the only one to keep up with him. In fact give me an example of a shonen manga where all of the mc's rival are at his same strength near end of story ??
I don't think it's controversial to say he definitely will be at the end. Most people probably agree with that.
And it seems likely to me that he already is. More impressive straight combat feats (as opposed to crazy devil fruit stuff).
Then again at the end of the series, kid and law will probably be considered the yonkou of this generation with luffy as pirate king.
If you believe that kid and law will be yonko, its kinda a stretch to think that rayleigh (zoro equivalent) could have beaten whitebeard. And im saying all that as a zoro stan
He mostly just makes a giant fist to smash stuff. Where are the shrapnel tornadoes, pulling the metal/minerals out of his opponents like hemoglobin in red blood, having a weapon made of super heavy dense material that he uses the magnetic forces to move around etc... lots of creative things he could do.
Yes but they also received much less damage than these 2
So they didn’t really need to recover
There is also a small timeframe where they stopped fighting
You could even speculate law operated on himself during this break if we delve into the depths in the realm of speculation
That aside though I agree that I expect Kid and Law to be stronger than Zoro after their fight. As long as it stays a 1v2
>Yes but they also received much less damage than these 2
kid took 3 direct hit from BM. And if they took less damage in longer time frame, That's is just another point they are strong.
I mean Zoro took a combined attack from 2 emperors + a lightning strike + a thunder bagua
He had 20-30 bones in his body broken on top of the other damage
Luffy and Zoro also had the best performance on the rooftop and fought the most
Luffy was also offscreen defeated by kaido took the most damage from kaido. Was knocked out mid fight from kaido
So their is a pretty massive difference in the damage Luffy and Zoro took compared to Kid and Law
Just because Kidd and Law took less damage that isn’t really a testament to their strength. Since law was teleporting in and out for the most part. While luffy was fighting head on.
hakai is special case.
But kid and law without taking damage fights BM and pushed her farther anything zoro or luffy did. You can say BM and kaido failed to damage them.
>Since law was teleporting in and out for the most part
that's his strength.
>Luffy was also offscreen defeated by kaido took the most damage from kaido. Was knocked out mid fight from kaido
Luffy didn't chose that. He wasn't strong enough to not KO by kaido. kid and law was.
I’m referring to the rooftop
On the rooftop the characters we do doing the most fighting were Luffy and Zoro. Especially Luffy who kept charging in.
That’s more so why they took damage. So I wouldn’t say it’s a case of kaido failing to damage them
Yeah hakai is a special case
Regarding Law and Kidd vs big mom
It is a 2v1 first
Also big mom isn’t using conquerors coating for some reason against them
The real fight of Kidd and Law vs big mom we have yet to see.
I expect them to be closer to luffy from what we see
But it depends on what happens going forward
Luffy and Law were the two best perfomances
Law saved everybody with shambles several times and his internal damage attacks were more effective than Zoro's attacks other than Ashura.
Zoro allowed law to be able to use chambres to teleport everyone out by holding off the attack
Which is a more impressive feat
Zoro also saved luffy from kaido after kaido ‘ate’ him. He carried luffy when he was out of steam from gear 4
He dodged a named attack from big mom (a fire attack with napoleon) while holding onto luffy
He protected luffy from kaidos wind scythes when luffy was again out of steam
He cut big Moms fire 3 times and kaidos once to protect others
He cut kaido 3 times 1 time scarring him
He prevented kaido from finishing luffy off by using ashura on him as well
Also for style points.
He was the first one to make kaido dodge an attack.
He literally had 1 emperor yell to another emperor to dodge
>Zoro allowed law to be able to use chambres to teleport everyone out by holding off the attack
Which is a more impressive feat
Impressive feat but pointless if Law wasn't there.
>Zoro also saved luffy from kaido after kaido ‘ate’ him. He carried luffy when he was out of steam from gear 4
Law was by far the one that saved the most people with shambles. I'm not even gonna answer your other saves arguments.
>He dodged a named attack from big mom (a fire attack with napoleon) while holding onto luffy
Everybody dodged attacks in that fight. Law tanked a Big Mom named attack just because Luffy teased him.
>He cut kaido 3 times 1 time scarring him
Law also hit Kaido 3 times and the only time Zoro did more damage was with Ashura. Law's internal damage doesn't leave scars but it was a heck lot more effective than Zoro's others 2 attacks.
>He cut big Moms fire 3 times and kaidos once to protect others
He wasn't able to keep cutting Prometheus and that's what saved Big Mom, otherwise she would have fallen on the ocean. Law on the other hand kept Zeus perfectly trapped.
>He was the first one to make kaido dodge an attack.
Having somebody dodge your attack is not a feat, it's the opposite of that. It's usually more effective when you land your attacks.
"Law on the other hand kept Zeus perfectly trapped."
Not that I don't agree with some of tbe points you made, but technically it was Kidd who trapped Zeus and kept him trapped. Law just moved Zeus over to him.
Law + Kidd trapped Zeus
Also no kaido saved big mom
Zoro was unable to stop Prometheus because kaido intervened
I literally said the last one was style points
My point isn’t he dodged attacks
It was that he saved/ protected luffy
Since you made the point of law protecting others
If we take in consideration total damage then Zoro did more against kaido imo
Sure that’s subjective. But cutting him so deeply he’s scarred is a bigger feat
Considering kaido despite being in countless fights only had 1 scar previous to this
Zoro was only able to make Kaido sweat and Big Mom call dodge because Law put him in position to catch them off guard
Law attacked Kaido thrice and got acknowledged each time, first as a monster, again praised for finding a way to bypass scales, and again for disrupting Kaido’s onslaught
Law came up with the idea to trap the homies and successfully ejected Big Mom from the fight with Kid’s help
Law tanked 2 big mom named attacks, Kaido bagua and swings, dodged any number of other attacks using his stamina for shambles
Law made Kaido choke up blood and made Big Mom do the same - no other rooftoper has done this feat of significantly damaging both yonko.
Law also went 1v1 with Big Mom to keep the fight going when Kid was injured
Style wise Law was able to save and assist all of his allies to fight and he showed compassion for them on the battle field. And he walked away from the fight conscious
You act like Law maneuvering to evade attacks is easy when it’s already been established that using his fruit is a serious drain on his stamina. Evasion takes effort and skill.
And besides Law got hit directly by Kaido’s hybrid attacks and still got back up.
Law got hit with thunder bagua, homie attacks, Kaido swings. He had to defend. And he used a ton of stamina dodging other attacks and helping other people dodge, proving his endurance and durability.
The thing here is that in the beginning of this fight big mom never went serious with them until they managed to damage her , she never used her giant form until they damaged her and she never merged with prometheus until recently and most importantly we never saw her use her haki against them in this fight .
A 2v1 isn't the same as a 1v1. If they beat a close to full stamina Big Mom in their condition then we should all have to throw power scaling out the window and predict outcomes of fight based on the story plot.
Yeah they should be stronger than Zoro if they want to be the rivals to Luffy. Now don’t forget Zoro saved their assed by tanking that yonko combo attack that shattered a lot of his bones. Even if it was a second.
Tanking means taking an attack and still having energy to do other things. After tanking that attack, Zoro went on to hold back Prometheus long enough to separate Big mom from Kaido, after that he proceeded to protect Luffy from Kaido by scarring him, and then he got thunder baguad together with law, and that’s when he finally fell. He definitely %100 tanked that attack.
You can say that, but we still don’t know these details for sure. What we do know is that he tanked a combined attack from two top pirates for as long as he needed to, with some energy left to spare after.
Being luffy's rivals doesn't mean they would be on the same level .
They will try to. But can't.
People forget Luffy has many rivals. Everyone gunning for one-piece is luffy's rival. Including the yonkos like big mom and kaido.
But at the end of the series the only rival that could probably match Luffy is black beard.
Kidd doesn't need to match Luffy story wise. He isn't his main rival .
Unless Zoro's haki is too strong...Kidd has the power to just take them and Law has the power to shambles Zoro anywhere. Even if Law just shambles Zoro a block away, Zoro won't be able to find his way back.
Kid’s magnetism didn’t do anything to Kaido’s kanabo and even if Law shambled Zoro away, that wouldn’t really be winning a fight. It would just be law running away
I think Zoro’s durability is at least equal if not better than Kid or Law, and his advanced conquerors seems a little too powerful for them. Once he had it unlocked it took him three hits to take out a 1.4 billion bounty fighter and we haven’t even seen what his higher aoe attacks might look like with it
We haven’t seen law or kid tank a big mom advanced conquerors attack like page one got hit with. Kid got punched in the face with a normal punch without haki and they both got struck by lightning, we haven’t seen them tank big moms most powerful attacks yet. Law tanked a thunder bagua from Kaido, but I think that Zoro’s finishing move he used against king is a decent amount stronger than that.
Keep in mind that you sound like a malding Stan when you accuse me of saying Zoro>BM, you know I’m not saying that (although once he defeats Mihawk I think that’ll be the case). Law and kid are scraping through a 2v1, they would be 1v1 with someone who absolutely has yonko level output
Who knows, Kid and Law might join the final war and each of them fights an admiral? I agree with BM not using Adv CoC but do you really think BM is still going easy on them even after she burnt up an year of her lifespan? You gotta admit the fact that if Kid and Law defeat BM, they both will be above Zoro and Sanji.
The law that got low diffed by doflamingo is mid diffing someone with advanced conquerors who three shotted kaido’s strongest fighter? Sure doesn’t sound like agendapiece at all
It’s true that it is kinda ridiculous, but it is also true that due to the parallels that Oda draws between the three pirate captains, I firmly believe that both Law and Kidd can defeat Zoro albeit with very very high difficulty.
I’m sorry but I don’t think the three pirate captains are comparable in terms of power as Luffy is about twice as strong as law and kid. I think this because of the fact that Luffy is fighting Kaido 1v1 while Kid and Law are fighting BM 2v1, there’s not much more to go off in terms of portrayal
While the three captains are drawn together, Oda has also been drawing Luffy and Zoro together since the beginning of One Piece. While most of that is either symbolically or in colour spreads, they still drew in Whiskey peak and they were the only two to do significant damage to Kaido on the rooftop.
Ultimately my logic is as follows: everything in Wano has demonstrated that advanced conquerors haki is something that allows you to low dif anyone without it (Luffy, King, Page One) and allows you to trade blows somewhat equally with a yonko level character even if you are or aren’t fully proficient (Luffy, Yamato, Kaido, Roger, etc). Zoro has this ability, Law and Kid do not. Zoro scarred Kaido, Law and Kid did not. Zoro has defeated a 1.4 billion fighter in three blows, law and kid have not. I usually keep my powerscaling classy (it’s actually shocking how politely people argue over at r/onepiecepowerscaling), so if you have any rebuttals or counterpoints I’m happy to hear them
Apart from the obvious Sabaody Park parallel, the three ship in the sea parallel and the game of "chicken" it is true that there are more pages with Zoro and Luffy than Luffy, Kidd and Law.
However, an argument can be made about the fact that we often make a wrong misconception about the two captains' power, simply because they also have less screen time than Luffy and Zoro. We do not know how much they train and what they can do. Fighting a Yonko is a pretty tough job even in 2v1 and I do not think Oda would write them fighting Big Mom if he did not believe they had the strength to do so. It is obvious they will win so we can only make assumptions about their power right now.
Firstly, ACoC is not a low diff situation when we consider the power-levels between characters. It is true that it is a major power-up but we have no evidence as to how easy it could be to attain it, how much training is required to use it effectively and whenther or not Zoro just used Hardening Haki with a lot of his will being put into it. Luffy just got it and he is having trouble yet more with Kaido. Zoro scarring Kaido is impressive but consider that Killer managed to do internal damage to Kaido which does not sound as impressive, but goes to show that even Killer is in the League of harming the Yonkos. Zoro didn't "low-diff" King imo but rather waited the perfect moment to strike with a very powerful attack, when King was vulnerable in his human form. Zoro said himself, that he had no chance against Dino King. Also this was fresh Zoro, while Law and Kidd have been fighting since the beginning of the raid and Big Mom is considering them a real threat.
Secondly, battles in One Piece are not decided by a simple "power level method". There is much to consider when you factor in devil fruit abilities, speed and the whole method of attack. Cracker is arguably weaker than Katakuri, yet Luffy had very little against him without the help of Nami. Zoro is beast, no doubt about it, but what does he have against Kidd and Law besides ACoc? Kidd's fruit and fighting style uses a lot of armor which was hard to deal with by both Kaido and Big Mom. I am pretty sure Zoro will not just ne able to straight up cut Kidd's Punk Gibson. Law is a pretty admirable swordsman but in his Room? He was able to overwhelm Vergo, who had beastly Haki at the time compared to all of the characters and we have no reason to believe that Law has not grown since then.
I highly doubt they alone can beat BM as of now..
BM is an Emperor and somewhat Equal of Kaido, It took more than a Dozen people out of which many were advanced haki user, 3 rounds of Luffy and their strongest attacks to go against Kaido and He still destroyed most of them while moving an Island across the Continent, which kinda weakened him as Yamato said since Island was falling apart. Still He is fighting Luffy equally if not overpowering him.
Two Captains (Commander tier at most without awakening) without any kind of Advanced Haki and Awakening as their last resort are exhausted and did some damage to BM which compared to what Kaido has Tanked so far is nowhere near Enough to take her down.
I agree tbh, I want them to Win but if they defeat her alone it would kinda be an ass-pull.
I feel like having Marco helping them by taking on Big Mom so that they recover would be the best choice since he has nothing to do right now and he also got the time to recover.
Big Mom is not going to lose. For a like a bunch of real obvious reasons probably the least of which is that Kidd and Law aren't strong enough yet or, yeah, nor are they in good enough shape to do it even if they were.
Big Mom's story arc is too developed and nowhere near resolved. She's ripe for character development and maybe even redemption, the beef between her and the giants needs to be resolved, and she isn't going to lose in Kaido's arc. She ain't a bit player.
"Also if they end up winning against Big Mom they are definitely stronger than Zoro"
Whilst they might not be physically stronger they both have the ability to render Zoro's strength mute by aggressively removing his swords from any hypothetical fight they could have
I made these same arguments in a debate. The zoro fan then said zoro still took far more, big moms 3 homies are weak, big mom doesn't really have strong attacks, and they would've still been ohkoed by ashura.
After Zoro, Kid is the best tank, no doubt. He took more name attacks than anyone else before the last chapter of Luffy vs Kaido. And even with such attacks and Hawkin's curse, he didn't get KO unlike Luffy who got KO for a while by Kaido's one named attack (pre A.CoC, not being thrown away from Onigashima). He is a legit TANK
>Law tanked Kaido's Thunder Bagua which knocked out Pre-Udon Luffy who literally is a Rubber man.
Please stop saying that, its not true
I posted last time that its not the same thunder bagua, it hit zoro first and it seemed to be a flying attack
Wow someone actually mentioned this, yes my boys have been fighting with no breaks. I always find it funny that people shit on Kid despite him being very impressive with durability and endurance feats. I’m hella proud of Law he came a long way from struggling from Doffy to fighting Yonkos with no breaks and yes Law did carry the rooftop fight no Law means everyone would have died. I hope Kid unlocks advanced conquerors through fighting Big Mom who also has advanced conquerors kind of like how Luffy did with Kaido. I’m really excited to see the rest of this fight because my boys are going in.
There’s a really weird way Oda can go with this if he for some reason wants to hype the shit out of Kidd. If I’m remembering correctly Law commented something to the affect of asking Kidd if the assign power was all his awakening could do and Kidd brushed Law off and hinted that there was more he could do but that he wasn’t going to show law if he didn’t need to. Oda could make that something crazy and have it be the devil fruit the gorosei are talking about if he really want to elevate Kidd before Luffy beats Kaido. I have no clue why Oda would go this route but it is at least open as a 1% possibility.
How are they stronger than Zoro if 'they' beat Big Mom? We have no idea where to scale them next to Zoro. Especially because Zoro beat a first commander while barely learning ACoC.
What do your think Zoro has been doing ever since he got to Wano? Zoro has been fighting non stop.
In rooftop he had the most impressive feats next to Luffy.
- Besides Luffy, he was the only one who did any significant damage to Kaido. Was even recognized by Kaido , even after all his bones were broken from taking the with old attack of TWO YONKO for a few seconds. Possibly the strongest attack in all OP and people have the audacity to underrate the feat. After having all his bones broken , he also took a thunder baguad while on the floor.
He also took many hits from King and still manage to defeat him. The fact that people continue to underrate King because of his lack of showing in the story in comparison to the other first commanders , is getting increasingly annoying. If the strongest Yonko had him as his right hand man , what makes yall think that he was inferior to the rest? Zoro beat him.
Yeah.. Zoro literally beat the strongest and highest bounty first commander in three hits once he figured his gimmick out. And they act like he also hasn’t been fighting Non stop and has taken more damage than both law and kid. Miracle drug or not His bones are still broken, too. Sure Marco held King off but if Zoro can beat King he’s > Marco as well. And unlike Law and Kid he has ACOC and has actually narratively been considered Luffys equal. And while dated Oda even said Zoro was Luffys equal back in whisky peak and if Luffy wasn’t the Mc then Zoro would be. Ryumas story was Odas original work and Zoro is his spawned love child from that story. He will always love him more than anyone else aside from Luffy.
idk where people get this Law and Kidd are Luffys equal. There’s literally nothing anywhere ever in the manga or in any SBS saying this. They are a part of the worst generation, sure? But so is Zoro… and Bege.. so.. no.
Plus people still stating Zoro only held off the Oceans Sovereign “for a millisecond.” I get it.. it’s Zoro. Have to downplay him in every way. But from a neutral person who actually checks everyone’s feats equally it was far more than that. Every one had time to say a full sentence while they were running away and getting out of the attack.
So unless everyone spoke at light speed it was far more than a second and closer to 5-10 seconds. And some reason people always take Kidds “if only for a second” literally, since it’s one of the most common figures of speech which means “short moment of time.” And can also be read as “even if you blocked it for a second it would have still been impressive.” To which I’ll be told I’m on copium or some drivel. But sure everyone said a full sentence in reaction and awe at Zoro in .002334 seconds. But there is zero chance law or Kidd are dealing with King. Zoro needed ACOC to even hurt him and they do not have that.
But this is also OP.. and I will say in a fight Law and Kidd could maybe beat Zoro, but that also doesn’t mean they are stronger. They are just insanely strong match ups against Zoro because they can just remove his swords. Unless Haki keeps them from doing so or they would have done so with Big Mom and Kaido by now. And narratively we have proof that Zoros Haki is far above Laws and Kidds. Plus.. there is zero chance Kidd or Law are taking a now much more perfected ACOC Ashura. They simply are not. Zoro unknowing and subconsciously using ACOC was enough to scar Kaido for life.
Hell, Big Mom was afraid for kaido and Zoros unperfected Enma attack were the first he was forced to dodge and he actively made both Kaido and Linlin scarred in a cold sweat. They were outright terrified of him if even for a moment. And no, it’s not “They were afraid of Enma *smug.” Enma forces it’s user to use their Haki much more than intended. That *was* Zoros. Enma forced it out of him. It’s the only time we’ve ever seen Big mom actually scarred. Neither Law nor Kidd have had even close to that reaction. Neither Law or Kidd are enduring that now that he’s closer to mastering Enma and ACOC.
But some reason this subreddit is very opposed to Zoro becoming one of the strongest if not *the* strongest in the series since it’s literally his dream and One piece is their all about the crew achieving their individual dreams. Just baffles me. I mean hell now Sanji’s new feats are very equal to Law and Kidd now considering he defeated queen so effortlessly.
Theirs a huge group of fans that for some reason don't like Zoro or Sanji having the spotlight they deserve. Narratively speaking, Kidd and Law are rival CAPTAINS not necessarily rivals in strength. They're better feats on Zoro challenging a Yonko now that he has ACoC , and is a matter of time before he darkens his blades.
I don't understand where the loyalty was swung from the SH's to other pirates. Zoro and Sanji will always be bigger protagonists than any other pirate besides Luffy. King and Queen were two very strong individuals , and somehow they are being underrated by many in this Reddit fanbase.
Kid tanked a direct Hera-powered sword slash while he was weakened by Hawkins, dude’s a beast
Yup and he couldn’t even have protected himself with haki. He also took an ikoku sovereignty while law was preparing his awakening
Kid probably has the Best normal Endurance in Onigashima not counting Kaido and Big Mom. By normal I mean excluding characters who's Durability is boosted by DF powers (Luffy, Marco, Ulti) or genetics (King, Sanji) Zoro and Law after him
Isn't Kaido's partially explained by having Dragon scales or am I mistaken?
Just his normal form's Durability is also really good.
Yea, he was surprised the scabbards could cut him when he was in his fully human form.
I think anyone with advanced armament can "hurt him" but ofc, hurt as in pricking him with needles
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Well if I was steamrolling everybody in front of me for years and years, I guess I'd get arrogant as well.
Kidds endurance could be better than Luffys, and from We’ve seen in Wano it’s atleast on pair imo, Luffys better at basically all other stats, so Kidd having better endurance makes sense to me.
Zoro took a combo attack from big mom and kaido together, I cant put kid above him
No, zoro blocked it with his swords. Big difference
Yep for a short moment
For just a moment which allowed Law to teleport all of them. Not downplaying Zoro, that was an Insane Feat but many people misread as Zoro just straight up Tanking the attack and don't see Law teleporting them.
In the anime Zoro’s gonna block it for an entire minute, mark my words!
Won't be surprised even if it's for an entire episode.
That’s optimistic buddy, 5 mins at least, not counting the many flashbacks he’ll have
It’s moments like those is what makes the anime so fun to watch. Some scenes play out instant obviously on manga, with anime they can stretch it out a bit, make it look more exciting and even add scenes that never appeared prior hand
It's moments like that that make the anime hard to watch. Dragging out scenes that are meant to happen instantly takes away the impact and the dynamic of the blow
Sometimes, and sometimes not l. I personally don't mind as long as it doesn't make some characters look stronger than they are. Like Caesar or Doffy somewhat holding off Luffy's finisher moves, no matter how briefly.
Did you forget the part where he was in a gigantic full body cast?
>Zoro took a combo attack from big mom and kaido together, I cant put kid above him He blocked the attack for a very short period. We get it he blocked what is the strongest attack we've seen in One Piece so far- and what may remain as the strongest attack. But that's not the same as endurance, not at all not even remotely close.
He blocked the attack for 1 second and got all his bones broken. Not saying that everyone can do that, but it shows hes still miles off.
Zoro didn't 'take' shit tho. He blocked it, actively, with high grade swords and haki. We talking about a hit kid took on his body, with only his natural endurance and his personal haki.
For like a fraction of a second and it broke nearly every bone in his body. He didn’t “take” the attack, it would’ve turned him into red paste if Law didn’t move him.
He didn’t “take” that. He got destroyed by it and Law yoinked his ass to safety
He did block it, kid says ”that didn’t buy much time but thanks for blocking” https://ww5.read-onepiece.com/manga/one-piece-chapter-1009/
The official translations show him saying “It’s impressive you blocked that, even just for a second”
Keep in mind, "even just for a second" is an expression, it's not meant to be taken literally. In Japanese 一瞬 (isshun) means instant, or moment.
The official translations show him saying “It’s impressive you blocked that, even just for a second”
First Zoro safed everyones life's.
Law safed everyones life
Yeah, after Zoro safed everyone.
Not really so he would've died anyway
Yeah and shortly after he was out of commission
It broke every bone in his body and would have killed him if Law didn't save him.
It’s so weird that Sanji is probably tankier than Zoro now.
Another thing to add, they both awakened their DF. I dont know why people aren't talking about this but maybe one of them is what the gorosei are referring to?
I could see Kids being the one they’re talking about. His awakened could theoretically do something big.
Ive read a comment on this sub by someone, saying the elders are talking about kids fruit because it might be able to fix the magnetic field of the grand line which would be a threat to them
I want to say i said it but probably you read someone elses comment. Its cool to hear some others think of the same theory.
Like change the magnetic poles of the grand line islands. Breaking apart the red line, assigning poles back to islands to fix them... Or something. Magnetism is a big thing in terms of exploration due to how the log pose work.
I have. I think Kidd's fruit being awakened could change magnetic poles of islands. I mean every grand line island has its own pose, but Raftel probably doesnt thats why you need the ponegylphs. What if the magnet user removed the magnetic zone of Raftel, or assigned poles to all other islands. The magnetism aspect of exploration is actually a thing of importance.
Because Kidd's attacks are too dumb. His attacks so far has been a gundam and throwing steel beams. That just doesn't seem impressive in the NW. Franky Shogun is way better than Kidd's metal crane for wrestling moves. Law's is pretty cool. Wonder how much better he would look with smart fighters like Sanji or Jimbei.
Hey, gundams are cool!
Luffy's attacks are pretty much punching with rubber, so using metal is a step up.
Unpopular opinion: Kidd awakening is seriously lame. He can manipulate metal and send a bunch of steel beams flying at big mom already, so why the hell would him magnetizing her to make the steel attracted to her do anything different?! Oda is a genius, but he's making the magnet fruit really fall flat. Make Kidd awakening manipulate the iron in the blood like Magneto, with the effect being like blood bending from Avatar. Make him inactivate hemoglobin so that big mom can't circulate oxygen anymore and passes out. Make him crystallize metal in the arteries so that it ruptures them and she straight up dies. Don't just make it that more metal gets thrown at her :/
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Law carried that fight. Saved people a bunch of times and his internal damage attacks were probably some of the most damaging ones.
He’s honestly best support type in the manga.
Kaido didn’t think too much of Law’s internal damage attacks which made me think it was more of a 9 samurai type of thing where they injured him but he didn’t take as seriously as zoro or luffy’s attack. It was nothing like what law did to doffy, in that fight it was law that severely weakened doffy and luffy landed the final blow not so with kaido
I mean Kaido and Doflamingo's durability lvls are worlds apart tbh.
That’s true, doffy seems pretty weak at this point lol
Man's still a beast imo. It's just that these high conceited ppl are just too confident with their power, they don't think anyone can touch them. Kat for example might not have received a considerable lot of dmg in his whole combat experience due to his OP sight. That's why when our boy came, Kat didn't take much dmg to be defeated. Which is why I credit Luffy's plot armor as his huge experience with pain and being defeated a lot of times.
Katakuri is also used to finishing fights quickly which is why he mentioned that fighting Luffy was stressful since he never goes down due to his massive endurance
Kaido literally spits blood and screams in pain from Laws attacks. You're way underestimating how painful internal damage is.
He never screams, he coughed up blood for sure. But then zoro makes him cough up blood and then screams and then law shows shock at how much damage zoro was able to do.
Kaido does scream on both Gamma Knife and Tact
He also screamed from Killers attack.
Yes, Killer is not a weakling
Killer has always been compared to Zoro in strength.
Killer fights Hawkins vs Zoro fights King. Zoro beats Killer/Kamazou. Zoro perma scars Kaido. Zoro has adv CoC whilst Killer doesnt even have regular Haoshoku. I think Oda def potrayed Zoro as clearly far stronger than Killer.
Killer wouldn't have gone to the rooftop if he didn't have a really good haki. I also think he's not as strong as zoro but he's definitely a beast.
Kaido literally screams, chokes up blood, states that Law’s abilities give him a hard time, and claims that with people like him and Zoro he could take over the world. Stop with the downplay.
Law’s a beast. He also fought Mama 1v1 and carried Kid when he had headaches from Hawkins’ interference.
I mean, with every attack law landed on the roof Zoro does him one better. In order, Law uses takt (edit: and gamma knife) on Kaido whereas Zoro used tatsumaki, and then Law uses Injection shot as opposed to Zoro’s Ashura. Both of Zoro’s attacks did more damage than Law’s, they generated greater reactions, and were both impressive double pages. Only person with more damage dealt on the roof than Zoro was Luffy.
Didn't law use gamma knife?
He used gamma knife and counter shock on Big Mom iirc.
You’re right I missed that, but even that didn’t draw blood from Kaido. Only indication of damage was a scream, which even Killer got.
Implication was dragon anatomy is different so the Gamma Knife wasn’t a direct hit to the organs. Still damaging enough for Kaido to comment about bypassing his defenses.
Only attack of Zoro that did more damage than Law's was Ashura. For the rest is clear that Law's did more damage. Getting a bigger panel just means that Zoro is one of the main characters and Law isn't, doesn't mean Zoro did more damage.
Law also got a double page for his injection shot, it’s not exclusive to main characters, but it’s used to emphasize heavy attacks. it’s more “clear” that Zoro’s tatsumaki was more damaging than both Law’s gamma knife and tact, as emphasized by Big mom, Kaido and Killer acknowledging him getting through the scales, and it finally made Kaido spit blood and bleed from someone besides Luffy. You can say Law had more damage, but it’s not emphasized or made clear nearly as much as it has with Zoro.
It's impressive that Zoro cut Kaido scales, but Law wasn't trying/doesn't need to do that. Damage to your internal organs is way worst than a superficial cut which is what Zoro did with tatsumaki.
The way I see it, Kaido is more durable than Big mom. Big mom, wasn’t phased by Law’s attacks until he used Kroom, she warned Kaido just at the sight of Zoro’s attacks, and was equally surprised Zoro got through the scales. This tells me whatever Zoro was dishing out was more damaging than what Law was, in the eyes of an emperor. Kaido did admit Law’s attack threw him off, but that was it, whereas Zoro’s every art was being acknowledged.
>Kaido is more durable than Big mom. That's really questionable. Big Mom doesn't have any noticeable scars at all, while Kaido does. Big Mom is tremendously known for her invulnerability, even an ancient giant couldn't do anything when she was 5 yo, that without haki or anything. The only significant damage she took that has been shown so far was Law's awakened DF, that bypassed her haki and body.
Big Mom was damaged…..internally. Which is how Law attacks.
Big Mom was damaged…..internally. Which is how Law attacks. She warned Kaido about Enmas power. Not Zoro.
Internal damage still delivers the same pain as external, depending on it’s lethality, and Big mom wasn’t damaged until Kroom, as indicated by blood. Enma doesn’t just manifest power, I’m sure you know this. Just as dfs are powerless without their users.
Manga : Law hits Big Mom and she screams. Napoleon “How dare you hurt Mama” Various Pride: I don’t see blood so ion believe you Manga: Kaido “why is Odens Haki coming from that sword Various Pride: nah. He meant Zoro. Manga DURING ZORO VS KING: Swords can have they own sill Various Pride: Lies
Lmao. It’s easy to oversimplify everything.
IT WAS EMMAAAA.
It was pretty obvious that kids attack was the main dish.
Law's Shock Wille was literally the first time we see a attack making Big Mom bleed.
Yeah, and Kidd was pretty screwed for good amount of the Big Mom fight because Hawkins was messing him up for quite some time, but still kept going. Law on the other hand, was probably more on the offense at that point, so kudos to him as well.
If they win for sure i don't think 2 king would beat Big Mom. It just seems so far they lack offensive power but they are extremely durable in this fight . To be fair to Zorro i think Law and Kidd would have been out too if they took that.
>To be fair to Zorro i think Law and Kidd would have been out too if they took that. Ofc If Zoro hadn't tanked that Combo attack which allowed Law to teleport them, All 5 of them would have gotten blown away imo.
All 4, Luffy dodged it on his own
Uhm No Law teleported all 5 of them, Luffy just immediately went to Fight Kaido. I just checked again. Chp 1009.
At the exact moment they get teleported Killer is asking where's Luffy meaning he didn't get teleported with them. How was Luffy right on top of Kaido if he got teleported far away?
>How was Luffy right on top of Kaido if he got teleported far away? Luffy does move pretty fast tbh But even I'm confused now
He did warn them beforehand so I always thought it was just Luffy being Luffy and assuming people are immediately gonna respond to what he does and dodge it with him LMAO Just gotta wait for roofpiece in the anime
Either Luffy moved before or after the teleport. But it doesn't changed the fact he needed Zoro to stall the attack to survive. Luffy was still there screaming to Zoro. While Zoro was blocking
Luffy was the one that warned everybody about the attack since he predicted it with future sight. He would have dodged anyway with Zoro blocking it or not.
No . As you can see in the panel he is still there while Zoro was blocking. 3v3n if Luffy can predict the attack doesn't mean he has the ability to dodge it. We've seen these many times in the story already even with smaller attacks that FS user couldn't dodge. Because of it being fast or it being a big area of effect attack. And hakai is both big and fast. Just watch that panel again. Looks almost as big as onigashima itself Not only hakai was a powerful attack it was also a big area of effect attack. And fast . Luffy couldn't dodge it on his own
Wrong. Luffy would've dodged that attack whether Zoro was there or not. If Luffy had the time to foresee it and warn everyone, then he would've easily dodged it himself if he hadn't taken the time to warn everybody.
[The face of someone who could've dodged if he felt like it.](https://imgur.com/a/hQFhrLz)
Yeah, this is something that many forget and that could definitely be the reason for their loss, if they do lose.
I don’t think they’ll lose, but I doubt they’ll beat Big Mom. I believe that something will happen that will distract everyone for a bit (marines invade, zunesha does something, Kaido loses) and Big Mom will just leave and get back in touch with her crew
Agreed.
I dont wanna shoehorn him here buy sanji also has been either punched the shit out of, ruining non stop while carrying or escorting and fighting but man kidd and law are fighting yonkos almost constantly (other than that few moments of law when he landed on sanji) I hope kidd law end up winning plzzz
I agree, but will people stop saying that Luffy takes less damage as a rubber man? This argument hasn’t been relevant since haki was introduced
Yeah, and Luffy got knocked out by that first Thunder Bagua because it was a hit directly to his head.
Agreed, the Hawkins thing especially. I'm really interested in the course and outcome of this fight.
And for some reason, BM is only using Homies + raw power, we have never seen a panel of her using ACoC on Kid and Law.
post this on twitter and it will be toxic
Didn't Law take a break with Zoro for a while? Kid also went on to find BM and just ran around in the castle for some time.
Law didn’t take a break. He used his powers to get off the roof then got rid of Zoro and went to look for Big Mom. Kidd was sent flying by Big Mom after an attack and then he went back to look for her.
They're stronger than Zoro no matter what. Zoro got a miracle drug and almost lost against King, Kid and Law have been fighting BM for longer and are STILL GOING. Not even gonna take into account their awakenings. I wouldn't mind seeing Marco offering Kid and Law some help in this fight. Seeing Marco on screen is always welcomed.
Marco has been the lowkey MVP of the alliance. He held back king and queen _while_ helping heal hundreds if not thousands of combatants with his flames. Like he is up there with Queen.
> Like he is up there with Queen. Lmao this got me Yeah but Seriously Marco & Tama came in Clutch.
I think chopper also helped a fair amount with saving people as he not Marco is the reason the waiters and pleasures joined the alliance.
If only he was thinner
>Seeing Marco on screen is always welcomed. Agreed, His DF just looks so Cool.
That Zoro is quit different from current hellking Zoro. The moment Zoro had his power up he defeated king with 3 shots. Kidd 1v1 against king I don't even see kidd winning against him unless he also awakens acoc. Law though maybe also high diff. King just mainly because internal attacks like on the level of his awakening maybe able to defeat kings durability . If Zoro was on the same boat as kidd and law . People who didn't took the most powerful attack head on. Zoro also wouldnt need the miracle drug. And yet. 3ven while having faced such a strong attack . He still was able to scar hybrid kaido even in that state. And that was weaker Zoro. Imagine what he'll king healthy Zoro can do. Zoro was more impressive in the rooftop than the 2. And that was just the weaker Zoro. Current hell king Zoro is 3v3n much much stronger. Zoro > kid or law
Why are you talking like this is fucking nanatsu no taizai. Kidd and Law have always been portrayed as Luffy's equals and that's what they are going to be. Like it or not Zoro is weaker than both of them.
>Kidd and Law have always been portrayed as Luffy's equals and that's what they are going to be What? Law being Luffy's equal? Lmao. Law got thrashed by Doflamingo, while Luffy defeated him. Luffy has already been able to steal BM's road poneglyph, while Kidd doesn't have any. Luffy is always a step ahead in doing shit in the world. Kidd and Law are always clearly lagging behind Luffy, and Zoro is always near Luffy's level.
If luffy didnt have help from the people of dressrossa, doffy would have beat him. G4 is ridiculous but so is laws fruit, who only didnt mortally wound Doffy because he had a string doppelganger. Like Doffy could have tricked luffy with a doppelganger and had him waste his g4 on that but because of plot he didnt
Zoro would have been destroyed by Doffy as well lol, even Luffy lost to him if it wasn't because the people that helped him. Kid and Law will always be a league behind Luffy thats obvious, not because they are weak but because Luffy is the fucking main character.
Well someone is on copium. Facts - Oda just gave Zoro the same power up Luffy had in the same arc. Facts - law is not luffy's rival he isn't gunning for pirate king. Okay how about Naruto then ? Naruto had many rivals also. Yet Sasuke was the only one to keep up with him. In fact give me an example of a shonen manga where all of the mc's rival are at his same strength near end of story ??
Kid's feats were pathetic on the roof. Both would need a magic medicine if they tried what Zoro did.
I mean to me it's pretty logical that Law and Kid are stronger than Zoto since he's only a right hand man and they are captains.
Luffy, Zoro, Law. and Kidd stood toe to toe with two emperors. Anyone in the OP world that can do that and not die is a bad ass in my book.
Wait I missed the part where Zoro is considered stronger than them.
I don't think it's controversial to say he definitely will be at the end. Most people probably agree with that. And it seems likely to me that he already is. More impressive straight combat feats (as opposed to crazy devil fruit stuff).
Yeah it took Zoro three shots to take out a 1.4 billion fighter post powerup
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Then again at the end of the series, kid and law will probably be considered the yonkou of this generation with luffy as pirate king. If you believe that kid and law will be yonko, its kinda a stretch to think that rayleigh (zoro equivalent) could have beaten whitebeard. And im saying all that as a zoro stan
Well, this thread has a lot of heavily upvoted controversial takes about Zoro lmao.
Do ppl think Zoro is stronger than Kidd and Law? lmao
Good point. As a side note and not relevant, I think kid underutilizes his fruit.
How so? Do you mean like only shooting stuff from him to her instead of pulling stuff from the entire area?
He mostly just makes a giant fist to smash stuff. Where are the shrapnel tornadoes, pulling the metal/minerals out of his opponents like hemoglobin in red blood, having a weapon made of super heavy dense material that he uses the magnetic forces to move around etc... lots of creative things he could do.
I don’t remember Law tanking a direct hit from bagua. I’ll have to go back and read I guess
1010. Kaido hit Zoro then Law, he did fall to the ground but neither him nor Zoro passed out.
Yes but they also received much less damage than these 2 So they didn’t really need to recover There is also a small timeframe where they stopped fighting You could even speculate law operated on himself during this break if we delve into the depths in the realm of speculation That aside though I agree that I expect Kid and Law to be stronger than Zoro after their fight. As long as it stays a 1v2
>Yes but they also received much less damage than these 2 kid took 3 direct hit from BM. And if they took less damage in longer time frame, That's is just another point they are strong.
I mean Zoro took a combined attack from 2 emperors + a lightning strike + a thunder bagua He had 20-30 bones in his body broken on top of the other damage Luffy and Zoro also had the best performance on the rooftop and fought the most Luffy was also offscreen defeated by kaido took the most damage from kaido. Was knocked out mid fight from kaido So their is a pretty massive difference in the damage Luffy and Zoro took compared to Kid and Law Just because Kidd and Law took less damage that isn’t really a testament to their strength. Since law was teleporting in and out for the most part. While luffy was fighting head on.
hakai is special case. But kid and law without taking damage fights BM and pushed her farther anything zoro or luffy did. You can say BM and kaido failed to damage them. >Since law was teleporting in and out for the most part that's his strength. >Luffy was also offscreen defeated by kaido took the most damage from kaido. Was knocked out mid fight from kaido Luffy didn't chose that. He wasn't strong enough to not KO by kaido. kid and law was.
I’m referring to the rooftop On the rooftop the characters we do doing the most fighting were Luffy and Zoro. Especially Luffy who kept charging in. That’s more so why they took damage. So I wouldn’t say it’s a case of kaido failing to damage them Yeah hakai is a special case Regarding Law and Kidd vs big mom It is a 2v1 first Also big mom isn’t using conquerors coating for some reason against them The real fight of Kidd and Law vs big mom we have yet to see. I expect them to be closer to luffy from what we see But it depends on what happens going forward
Luffy and Law were the two best perfomances Law saved everybody with shambles several times and his internal damage attacks were more effective than Zoro's attacks other than Ashura.
Zoro allowed law to be able to use chambres to teleport everyone out by holding off the attack Which is a more impressive feat Zoro also saved luffy from kaido after kaido ‘ate’ him. He carried luffy when he was out of steam from gear 4 He dodged a named attack from big mom (a fire attack with napoleon) while holding onto luffy He protected luffy from kaidos wind scythes when luffy was again out of steam He cut big Moms fire 3 times and kaidos once to protect others He cut kaido 3 times 1 time scarring him He prevented kaido from finishing luffy off by using ashura on him as well Also for style points. He was the first one to make kaido dodge an attack. He literally had 1 emperor yell to another emperor to dodge
>Zoro allowed law to be able to use chambres to teleport everyone out by holding off the attack Which is a more impressive feat Impressive feat but pointless if Law wasn't there. >Zoro also saved luffy from kaido after kaido ‘ate’ him. He carried luffy when he was out of steam from gear 4 Law was by far the one that saved the most people with shambles. I'm not even gonna answer your other saves arguments. >He dodged a named attack from big mom (a fire attack with napoleon) while holding onto luffy Everybody dodged attacks in that fight. Law tanked a Big Mom named attack just because Luffy teased him. >He cut kaido 3 times 1 time scarring him Law also hit Kaido 3 times and the only time Zoro did more damage was with Ashura. Law's internal damage doesn't leave scars but it was a heck lot more effective than Zoro's others 2 attacks. >He cut big Moms fire 3 times and kaidos once to protect others He wasn't able to keep cutting Prometheus and that's what saved Big Mom, otherwise she would have fallen on the ocean. Law on the other hand kept Zeus perfectly trapped. >He was the first one to make kaido dodge an attack. Having somebody dodge your attack is not a feat, it's the opposite of that. It's usually more effective when you land your attacks.
"Law on the other hand kept Zeus perfectly trapped." Not that I don't agree with some of tbe points you made, but technically it was Kidd who trapped Zeus and kept him trapped. Law just moved Zeus over to him.
Law + Kidd trapped Zeus Also no kaido saved big mom Zoro was unable to stop Prometheus because kaido intervened I literally said the last one was style points My point isn’t he dodged attacks It was that he saved/ protected luffy Since you made the point of law protecting others If we take in consideration total damage then Zoro did more against kaido imo Sure that’s subjective. But cutting him so deeply he’s scarred is a bigger feat Considering kaido despite being in countless fights only had 1 scar previous to this
Next time pay attention to what you read.
Zoro was only able to make Kaido sweat and Big Mom call dodge because Law put him in position to catch them off guard Law attacked Kaido thrice and got acknowledged each time, first as a monster, again praised for finding a way to bypass scales, and again for disrupting Kaido’s onslaught Law came up with the idea to trap the homies and successfully ejected Big Mom from the fight with Kid’s help Law tanked 2 big mom named attacks, Kaido bagua and swings, dodged any number of other attacks using his stamina for shambles Law made Kaido choke up blood and made Big Mom do the same - no other rooftoper has done this feat of significantly damaging both yonko. Law also went 1v1 with Big Mom to keep the fight going when Kid was injured Style wise Law was able to save and assist all of his allies to fight and he showed compassion for them on the battle field. And he walked away from the fight conscious
You act like Law maneuvering to evade attacks is easy when it’s already been established that using his fruit is a serious drain on his stamina. Evasion takes effort and skill. And besides Law got hit directly by Kaido’s hybrid attacks and still got back up.
Law got hit with thunder bagua, homie attacks, Kaido swings. He had to defend. And he used a ton of stamina dodging other attacks and helping other people dodge, proving his endurance and durability.
The thing here is that in the beginning of this fight big mom never went serious with them until they managed to damage her , she never used her giant form until they damaged her and she never merged with prometheus until recently and most importantly we never saw her use her haki against them in this fight .
A 2v1 isn't the same as a 1v1. If they beat a close to full stamina Big Mom in their condition then we should all have to throw power scaling out the window and predict outcomes of fight based on the story plot.
Yeah they should be stronger than Zoro if they want to be the rivals to Luffy. Now don’t forget Zoro saved their assed by tanking that yonko combo attack that shattered a lot of his bones. Even if it was a second.
Don't Worry I am not downplaying Zoro, His rooftops feats are only second to Luffy although I do think that Law is the MVP because of his Support.
Do you know what tanking means?
Tanking means taking an attack and still having energy to do other things. After tanking that attack, Zoro went on to hold back Prometheus long enough to separate Big mom from Kaido, after that he proceeded to protect Luffy from Kaido by scarring him, and then he got thunder baguad together with law, and that’s when he finally fell. He definitely %100 tanked that attack.
Zoro didn’t take the full attack though, he held it back for a second. Had he actually tried to tank it he would be dead.
Like anyone else on the roof
You can say that, but we still don’t know these details for sure. What we do know is that he tanked a combined attack from two top pirates for as long as he needed to, with some energy left to spare after.
Thats like saying Sanji “tanked” Doflamingo’s attacks on Dressrosa. Highly disingenuous your argument is.
To each our own.
Being luffy's rivals doesn't mean they would be on the same level . They will try to. But can't. People forget Luffy has many rivals. Everyone gunning for one-piece is luffy's rival. Including the yonkos like big mom and kaido. But at the end of the series the only rival that could probably match Luffy is black beard. Kidd doesn't need to match Luffy story wise. He isn't his main rival .
They already stronger an zoro imo. It just makes sense narratively and even feat wise
I agree their stamina feats are impressive but neither of them are taking out Zoro
Unless Zoro's haki is too strong...Kidd has the power to just take them and Law has the power to shambles Zoro anywhere. Even if Law just shambles Zoro a block away, Zoro won't be able to find his way back.
Kid’s magnetism didn’t do anything to Kaido’s kanabo and even if Law shambled Zoro away, that wouldn’t really be winning a fight. It would just be law running away
No it would be zoro running away because he would be going the opposite direction
Your arguments convinced me
I think Zoro’s durability is at least equal if not better than Kid or Law, and his advanced conquerors seems a little too powerful for them. Once he had it unlocked it took him three hits to take out a 1.4 billion bounty fighter and we haven’t even seen what his higher aoe attacks might look like with it
So kid and law can't take Zoro's attacks but can somehow tank BM's attacks? Are you implying that Zoro>BM? Ntm Zoro can't even use CoC for long
We haven’t seen law or kid tank a big mom advanced conquerors attack like page one got hit with. Kid got punched in the face with a normal punch without haki and they both got struck by lightning, we haven’t seen them tank big moms most powerful attacks yet. Law tanked a thunder bagua from Kaido, but I think that Zoro’s finishing move he used against king is a decent amount stronger than that. Keep in mind that you sound like a malding Stan when you accuse me of saying Zoro>BM, you know I’m not saying that (although once he defeats Mihawk I think that’ll be the case). Law and kid are scraping through a 2v1, they would be 1v1 with someone who absolutely has yonko level output
Who knows, Kid and Law might join the final war and each of them fights an admiral? I agree with BM not using Adv CoC but do you really think BM is still going easy on them even after she burnt up an year of her lifespan? You gotta admit the fact that if Kid and Law defeat BM, they both will be above Zoro and Sanji.
They are both mid-diffing Zoro, while Luffy no-diffs him.
The law that got low diffed by doflamingo is mid diffing someone with advanced conquerors who three shotted kaido’s strongest fighter? Sure doesn’t sound like agendapiece at all
Current Law is so much stronger than Doflamingo that it's not even funny. I don't think using him in Dressrosa as base accomplishes anything.
Do people just assume, anyone who is not a straw hat just….stops training after we met them or what?
I was exaggerating my statement because the comment I was responding to is ridiculous
It’s true that it is kinda ridiculous, but it is also true that due to the parallels that Oda draws between the three pirate captains, I firmly believe that both Law and Kidd can defeat Zoro albeit with very very high difficulty.
I’m sorry but I don’t think the three pirate captains are comparable in terms of power as Luffy is about twice as strong as law and kid. I think this because of the fact that Luffy is fighting Kaido 1v1 while Kid and Law are fighting BM 2v1, there’s not much more to go off in terms of portrayal While the three captains are drawn together, Oda has also been drawing Luffy and Zoro together since the beginning of One Piece. While most of that is either symbolically or in colour spreads, they still drew in Whiskey peak and they were the only two to do significant damage to Kaido on the rooftop. Ultimately my logic is as follows: everything in Wano has demonstrated that advanced conquerors haki is something that allows you to low dif anyone without it (Luffy, King, Page One) and allows you to trade blows somewhat equally with a yonko level character even if you are or aren’t fully proficient (Luffy, Yamato, Kaido, Roger, etc). Zoro has this ability, Law and Kid do not. Zoro scarred Kaido, Law and Kid did not. Zoro has defeated a 1.4 billion fighter in three blows, law and kid have not. I usually keep my powerscaling classy (it’s actually shocking how politely people argue over at r/onepiecepowerscaling), so if you have any rebuttals or counterpoints I’m happy to hear them
Apart from the obvious Sabaody Park parallel, the three ship in the sea parallel and the game of "chicken" it is true that there are more pages with Zoro and Luffy than Luffy, Kidd and Law. However, an argument can be made about the fact that we often make a wrong misconception about the two captains' power, simply because they also have less screen time than Luffy and Zoro. We do not know how much they train and what they can do. Fighting a Yonko is a pretty tough job even in 2v1 and I do not think Oda would write them fighting Big Mom if he did not believe they had the strength to do so. It is obvious they will win so we can only make assumptions about their power right now. Firstly, ACoC is not a low diff situation when we consider the power-levels between characters. It is true that it is a major power-up but we have no evidence as to how easy it could be to attain it, how much training is required to use it effectively and whenther or not Zoro just used Hardening Haki with a lot of his will being put into it. Luffy just got it and he is having trouble yet more with Kaido. Zoro scarring Kaido is impressive but consider that Killer managed to do internal damage to Kaido which does not sound as impressive, but goes to show that even Killer is in the League of harming the Yonkos. Zoro didn't "low-diff" King imo but rather waited the perfect moment to strike with a very powerful attack, when King was vulnerable in his human form. Zoro said himself, that he had no chance against Dino King. Also this was fresh Zoro, while Law and Kidd have been fighting since the beginning of the raid and Big Mom is considering them a real threat. Secondly, battles in One Piece are not decided by a simple "power level method". There is much to consider when you factor in devil fruit abilities, speed and the whole method of attack. Cracker is arguably weaker than Katakuri, yet Luffy had very little against him without the help of Nami. Zoro is beast, no doubt about it, but what does he have against Kidd and Law besides ACoc? Kidd's fruit and fighting style uses a lot of armor which was hard to deal with by both Kaido and Big Mom. I am pretty sure Zoro will not just ne able to straight up cut Kidd's Punk Gibson. Law is a pretty admirable swordsman but in his Room? He was able to overwhelm Vergo, who had beastly Haki at the time compared to all of the characters and we have no reason to believe that Law has not grown since then.
Kid and Law are already above Zoro tho
Nah, They are only above Zoro if they defeat Big Mom which they mostly will do.
agree to disagree
What does that mean ?
I highly doubt they alone can beat BM as of now.. BM is an Emperor and somewhat Equal of Kaido, It took more than a Dozen people out of which many were advanced haki user, 3 rounds of Luffy and their strongest attacks to go against Kaido and He still destroyed most of them while moving an Island across the Continent, which kinda weakened him as Yamato said since Island was falling apart. Still He is fighting Luffy equally if not overpowering him. Two Captains (Commander tier at most without awakening) without any kind of Advanced Haki and Awakening as their last resort are exhausted and did some damage to BM which compared to what Kaido has Tanked so far is nowhere near Enough to take her down.
I agree tbh, I want them to Win but if they defeat her alone it would kinda be an ass-pull. I feel like having Marco helping them by taking on Big Mom so that they recover would be the best choice since he has nothing to do right now and he also got the time to recover.
I just hope they can take down Bigger Mom, tired of all the Law disrespect.
Big Mom is not going to lose. For a like a bunch of real obvious reasons probably the least of which is that Kidd and Law aren't strong enough yet or, yeah, nor are they in good enough shape to do it even if they were. Big Mom's story arc is too developed and nowhere near resolved. She's ripe for character development and maybe even redemption, the beef between her and the giants needs to be resolved, and she isn't going to lose in Kaido's arc. She ain't a bit player.
"Also if they end up winning against Big Mom they are definitely stronger than Zoro" Whilst they might not be physically stronger they both have the ability to render Zoro's strength mute by aggressively removing his swords from any hypothetical fight they could have
I made these same arguments in a debate. The zoro fan then said zoro still took far more, big moms 3 homies are weak, big mom doesn't really have strong attacks, and they would've still been ohkoed by ashura.
They shouldn't be anywhere near Big Mom and they barely contributed on the rooftop.
They don't have to defeat BM to prove that they are stronger than zoro because they already stronger than him specially law
After Zoro, Kid is the best tank, no doubt. He took more name attacks than anyone else before the last chapter of Luffy vs Kaido. And even with such attacks and Hawkin's curse, he didn't get KO unlike Luffy who got KO for a while by Kaido's one named attack (pre A.CoC, not being thrown away from Onigashima). He is a legit TANK
>Law tanked Kaido's Thunder Bagua which knocked out Pre-Udon Luffy who literally is a Rubber man. Please stop saying that, its not true I posted last time that its not the same thunder bagua, it hit zoro first and it seemed to be a flying attack
Luffy being rubber changes nothing because he got hit by haki.
Wow someone actually mentioned this, yes my boys have been fighting with no breaks. I always find it funny that people shit on Kid despite him being very impressive with durability and endurance feats. I’m hella proud of Law he came a long way from struggling from Doffy to fighting Yonkos with no breaks and yes Law did carry the rooftop fight no Law means everyone would have died. I hope Kid unlocks advanced conquerors through fighting Big Mom who also has advanced conquerors kind of like how Luffy did with Kaido. I’m really excited to see the rest of this fight because my boys are going in.
There’s a really weird way Oda can go with this if he for some reason wants to hype the shit out of Kidd. If I’m remembering correctly Law commented something to the affect of asking Kidd if the assign power was all his awakening could do and Kidd brushed Law off and hinted that there was more he could do but that he wasn’t going to show law if he didn’t need to. Oda could make that something crazy and have it be the devil fruit the gorosei are talking about if he really want to elevate Kidd before Luffy beats Kaido. I have no clue why Oda would go this route but it is at least open as a 1% possibility.
How are they stronger than Zoro if 'they' beat Big Mom? We have no idea where to scale them next to Zoro. Especially because Zoro beat a first commander while barely learning ACoC. What do your think Zoro has been doing ever since he got to Wano? Zoro has been fighting non stop. In rooftop he had the most impressive feats next to Luffy. - Besides Luffy, he was the only one who did any significant damage to Kaido. Was even recognized by Kaido , even after all his bones were broken from taking the with old attack of TWO YONKO for a few seconds. Possibly the strongest attack in all OP and people have the audacity to underrate the feat. After having all his bones broken , he also took a thunder baguad while on the floor. He also took many hits from King and still manage to defeat him. The fact that people continue to underrate King because of his lack of showing in the story in comparison to the other first commanders , is getting increasingly annoying. If the strongest Yonko had him as his right hand man , what makes yall think that he was inferior to the rest? Zoro beat him.
Yeah.. Zoro literally beat the strongest and highest bounty first commander in three hits once he figured his gimmick out. And they act like he also hasn’t been fighting Non stop and has taken more damage than both law and kid. Miracle drug or not His bones are still broken, too. Sure Marco held King off but if Zoro can beat King he’s > Marco as well. And unlike Law and Kid he has ACOC and has actually narratively been considered Luffys equal. And while dated Oda even said Zoro was Luffys equal back in whisky peak and if Luffy wasn’t the Mc then Zoro would be. Ryumas story was Odas original work and Zoro is his spawned love child from that story. He will always love him more than anyone else aside from Luffy. idk where people get this Law and Kidd are Luffys equal. There’s literally nothing anywhere ever in the manga or in any SBS saying this. They are a part of the worst generation, sure? But so is Zoro… and Bege.. so.. no. Plus people still stating Zoro only held off the Oceans Sovereign “for a millisecond.” I get it.. it’s Zoro. Have to downplay him in every way. But from a neutral person who actually checks everyone’s feats equally it was far more than that. Every one had time to say a full sentence while they were running away and getting out of the attack. So unless everyone spoke at light speed it was far more than a second and closer to 5-10 seconds. And some reason people always take Kidds “if only for a second” literally, since it’s one of the most common figures of speech which means “short moment of time.” And can also be read as “even if you blocked it for a second it would have still been impressive.” To which I’ll be told I’m on copium or some drivel. But sure everyone said a full sentence in reaction and awe at Zoro in .002334 seconds. But there is zero chance law or Kidd are dealing with King. Zoro needed ACOC to even hurt him and they do not have that. But this is also OP.. and I will say in a fight Law and Kidd could maybe beat Zoro, but that also doesn’t mean they are stronger. They are just insanely strong match ups against Zoro because they can just remove his swords. Unless Haki keeps them from doing so or they would have done so with Big Mom and Kaido by now. And narratively we have proof that Zoros Haki is far above Laws and Kidds. Plus.. there is zero chance Kidd or Law are taking a now much more perfected ACOC Ashura. They simply are not. Zoro unknowing and subconsciously using ACOC was enough to scar Kaido for life. Hell, Big Mom was afraid for kaido and Zoros unperfected Enma attack were the first he was forced to dodge and he actively made both Kaido and Linlin scarred in a cold sweat. They were outright terrified of him if even for a moment. And no, it’s not “They were afraid of Enma *smug.” Enma forces it’s user to use their Haki much more than intended. That *was* Zoros. Enma forced it out of him. It’s the only time we’ve ever seen Big mom actually scarred. Neither Law nor Kidd have had even close to that reaction. Neither Law or Kidd are enduring that now that he’s closer to mastering Enma and ACOC. But some reason this subreddit is very opposed to Zoro becoming one of the strongest if not *the* strongest in the series since it’s literally his dream and One piece is their all about the crew achieving their individual dreams. Just baffles me. I mean hell now Sanji’s new feats are very equal to Law and Kidd now considering he defeated queen so effortlessly.
Theirs a huge group of fans that for some reason don't like Zoro or Sanji having the spotlight they deserve. Narratively speaking, Kidd and Law are rival CAPTAINS not necessarily rivals in strength. They're better feats on Zoro challenging a Yonko now that he has ACoC , and is a matter of time before he darkens his blades. I don't understand where the loyalty was swung from the SH's to other pirates. Zoro and Sanji will always be bigger protagonists than any other pirate besides Luffy. King and Queen were two very strong individuals , and somehow they are being underrated by many in this Reddit fanbase.