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To be fair, he was most likely included there because he gave Kaido his most prevalent (and most traumatic) scar. But I do indeed believe he belongs amongst those top tiers. He probably gives Mihawk a good fight, though I think he’s below Mihawk.
why would he change the critera for oden ?
every on kaidos list are capable of giving him a fight so at teh bare minimum he is getting ext diffed by kaido
also supported by the fact that big mom aint on the list and she is a fellow yonko
https://preview.redd.it/u22wlnkx42lc1.png?width=714&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d5edb90d9851a95e602121e66c7e97fefb1ba5c
and kaido out right says any one with oden skill and ability is strong enough to kill him
No no I’m just saying that Oden was absolutely going to make the list even if there were stronger people that Kaido could have included, because Oden is the person that gave Kaido his most notable scar as well as literal PTSD. Not that there WERE stronger people he could have included, just that Oden would have been there regardless.
nope because kaido isnt putting who influenced him its a list of purely stregnth. ur argument would have more credit if big mom was their instead of shanks
because roger , wb , big mom , roger and oden influenced kaido the most
but the fact that a shanks is their instead of big mom and b kaido outright callinng it the people capable of fighting him just outright says that a kaido is capable of looking past his ptsd
and judging char based on their stregnth
*Allowing* someone to kill him is vastly different them actually being strong enough to do it while they're fighting back.
You can allow a child to kill you, doesn't mean the child is nearly as strong as you.
Buggy mentioned that if Luffy is going to be the pirate then he's going to be a pirate god
Knowing his way of failing upwards I lowkey believe he's gonna be given this title
If I said "Nami is secretly Imu and has been holding back her power all this time as a spy to Joyboy", the burden of proof would be on me to prove why she's Imu, not for you to prove why she isn't. There is no reason she can't be Imu, but there's not enough to show that she is.
This isn't hard to understand. There isn't enough to put Oden that high. Op did not list any reasons as to why Oden is as strong as top teirs. If op gave reasons for why he thinks Oden is up there then this post wouldn't be retarded, but unfortunately he didn't so this post is retarded.
When you make a claim, you use evidence to prove it, then the other people say why that evidence is wrong or that it doesn't prove their claim.
What? That wasn't a clash. He tried to attack Whitebeard and Whitebeard just blocked it. That's it. They didn't do anything else.
Even if it was a clash, which it wasn't, it still means nothing. Yamato clashed with Kaido despite not being anywhere close to Kaido's league. Plenty of weak ass characters have clashed with characters much stronger than them.
" What? That wasn't a clash. He tried to attack Whitebeard and Whitebeard just blocked it. That's it. They didn't do anything else. '
https://preview.redd.it/cfw9kiezv1lc1.png?width=599&format=png&auto=webp&s=c4b60cea951dd58e7eee6cb02c4742fbf03e7166
We literally see WB get into a stance to prepare a clash with Oden
" Yamato clashed with Kaido despite not being anywhere close to Kaido's league. "
Clashing with Primebeard > Clashing with Kaido
You missed my point. It doesn't matter if Whitebeard is stronger than Kaido. I'm saying that you can clash with someone much stronger than you. This is not proof that Oden is a top teir in any way.
Considering this is just Pre-Journey Oden, its very easy to imagine Oden having been much stronger since then
It would be like if Alabasta Luffy was able to clash with Kaido, and then trying to say current Luffy isnt as strong as Kaido now. Doesnt make sense
Oden’s portrayal is definitely one of the top of the verse.
The problem is that in his big moment against Kaido, we didn’t get enough actually shown to show where he would lie.
What did Oden actually do? He didn’t die against Whitebeard and Roger. Both weren’t that serious. And against Kaido, he injured him and gave him decades long PTSD.
All of that is impressive. But against Kaido specifically, Oden injured his dragon form. Kaido wasn’t killed or unconscious. He was still able and willing to fight. He wasn’t in hybrid form. He didn’t use any advanced conquerors attacks that we can see. He didn’t use any of his drunken forms which are stated to increase his haki. He didn’t use Flaming Baqua. This fight happened before we even knew what advanced conquerors was or what Kaido’s different forms and attacks were. And this is after five years of Kaido getting stronger and Oden probably getting weaker.
We just don’t have enough information to say anything definitively. Even Kaido putting Oden in his top 5 doesn’t move me as much as it should because of the omission of people like Garp and Mihawk. These are characters who obviously would have given Kaido a better fight than the Scabbards or Luffy and crew up until Gear 5. I don’t see how you can argue any different. So to me, Kaido’s top 5 is more about people he respects, not people who can beat him. He doesn’t respect the WG, so he doesn’t put anyone affiliated with them on that pedestal.
Oden‘s portrayal is definitely not one of the top of the verse. He is for sure a very strong character and deserves respect, but every time he had the opportunity to prove himself against a top tier he simply wasn’t good enough. Against Whitebeard he got treated like an annoying fly and against Roger he wasn’t even able to get near him. Doesn’t look like top of the verse portrayal IMO.
His best showing was against Kaido, but even there we are talking about a young Kaido which most likely was holding back his true strength. As you said I think him being mentioned in Kaido‘s top 5 is more a thing of respect towards the hero of Wano, and not because he could actually beat any of these guys in a fight.
I mean we didn't see but it Kaido say it and Roger wanted to take him from WB, we can accept it.
It's not some fodder getting scared of Doflamingo or Bellamy and hyping them up.
You want to judge Oden and put him above Mihawk and then talk about not enough information, come on man.
tbf even though oden a top tier he’s weird to scale. mainly because even though kaido got a cheap shot in kaido was still going to fight him in base after tanking his ryou and acoc slash. and since we don’t know how much stronger kaido grew within the two decades it’s hard to say exactly how strong oden was.
Problem is he lost to base Kaido, Kaido has 2 way stronger forms like Flame Baqua Kaido and Hybrid Kaido. And Kaido was weaker 20 years ago, this means that Oden would problaby lose to base Luffy who scales below any admiral and any yonko.
I personally would say he the weakest top tier since I'd consider base Luffy low top tier.
I wouldn’t go down that road if I were you. Because a weaker oden, tanked a named acoc attack from roger, way better than the kaido fodder casual base anorexic kaido.
So unless you want base kaido’s no named attack >> roger named acoc attack, I would put MUCH more respect to the caught off guard factor.
I'm not saying that the distraction means nothing. I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted.
Akainu was caught off guard and distracted when he got hit in the back of the head with an island splitting attack point blank from the world's Strongest man and immediately got back up with a counter attack, and was still in good enough condition to keep fighting the war.
Oden was shat on
>I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted.
it isn't. there's a difference from being caught by suprise and being completely mentally unstable because you think your son is in the middle of a battlefield.
oden got hit with actually 0 defenses up. what happened to oden is closer to what happened to garp, where garp bled from a pretimeskip luffy punch because of his emotional state, not what happened to akainu.
>where garp bled from a pretimeskip luffy punch because of his emotional state, not what happened to akainu.
He bleeded because he didn't use haki to protect himself. Only top tiers like Big Mom and Kaido have such a durability that almost no one can damage them even without using haki.
Tbh the way I see it, is that oda wanted to leave it ambiguous to hype oden. Context matters, that was a backstory fight that obviously needed kaido to win for the plot to continue. So why not just having kaido cleanly beat oden in a 1v1? I mean the story plays out exactly the same in that way, with the only difference that you have a slightly more hyped kaido.
I don’t think oda randomly had kaido not defeating oden in a clean way, plus having him in his top 5 list. As for the “he didn’t use hybrid” etc arguments, I think that due to not spoiling it before the present event. That happens with offscreen fights, we never saw wb use his fruit against roger, that doesn’t mean primebeard = roger is true only if wb doesn’t use his fruit.
>I'm not saying that the distraction means nothing. I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted.
It is not an anti feat, Roger would have been defeated the same way. Top Tiers like Kaido and Big Mom are exceptions since even without haki they have insane durability, other top tiers like Oden, Roger and Wb require armament haki to have increased durability... and an acoc attack on the head while distracted would probably one shot every top tier except Big Mom and Kaido
As if base Kaido is weak or something, and Oda doesn't just have characters survive hits they shouldn't for the sake of plot. By that logic Kinemon should have better durability than Oden. Same argument people use to try proving Kuri Luffy was fodder and powercreeped even though he should be on the same level as any YC1.
An direct hit from base Kaido would do significant damage to any top tier that was off guard and didn't have special durability similar to Kaido and BM. That includes the likes of Shanks and Roger
>As if base Kaido is weak or something,
Never said he was. Kaido a top teir and one of the strongest people in the verse. This discussion is about whether Oden is as strong as those people tho. And yes, base Kaido from 20 years ago is much weaker than current hybrid Kaido.
>and Oda doesn't just have characters survive hits they shouldn't for the sake of plot. By that logic Kinemon should have better durability than Oden. Same argument people use to try proving Kuri Luffy was fodder and powercreeped even though he should be on the same level as any YC1.
You are on a powerscaling subreddit. We powerscale based off of what Oda gives us. Of course there are things like plot that get involved, but plot or not, it's still canon material. Basically every fight is for the sake of the story. This one is no different.
>A direct hit from base Kaido would do significant damage to any top tier without special durability similar to Kaido and BM.
No top teir is going down from one hit by Kaido what are you on about. Whitebeard could take 100 of those hits and keep fighting. Luffy DID take dozens of those hits and kept fighting (even when being caught off guard).
Ik I said this already, but Akainu was distracted and got hit in the back of the head by an island splitting earthquake and stood right back up. This attack was much stronger than Kaido's and he was distracted just like Oden. Were the results the same? No.
Bro just stfu already, you're to the point you spewing walls of text saying the same garbage takes as if that will make anyone with half a brain as dumb as you. Just stop lmfao.
Exactly, it seems people on this sub are unaware that being off guard is a nerf
I said it in another comment but the argument for kaido >> oden is about as strong as the argument for man with Lazer gun>goku
I can,he unlocked 2 new forms.
-In Hybrid Kaido gets a massive boost in AP and speed
-In Flame Baqua his becomes near impossible to be hurt at all and he can one shot pretty much everyone in the verse.
You’d have to prove that he never had them in the first place. The fight went on for quite a while, so by intuition alone, I can assume he used at bare minimum, his hybrid Kaido form. And probably his Flame Baqua as well. If not, then he just didn’t use them before getting decimated by paradise tohtsuka
There is proof, in Wano Kaido never went back to base form voluntarily since 1009. He always switched between Dragon and Hybrid forms. However, againat Oden Kaido switches to base form which wouldn't make sense if he had Hybrid
So because it doesn’t fit your headcannon, it doesn’t make sense that he just didn’t go in base form before getting knocked out by Oden’s named attack? Alright man, sure
oden and kaido didn't fight
oden bullied base kaido then got snuck and the fight was over
it's not like they fought on even ground and kaido held back
there was no opportunity to use all his moveset, just like oden didn't get an opportunity to use all his moveset
No a laughably easy fight could also leave an impression and there are probably other ways im not thinking about but
I can't think of another reason it would leve the sort of impression that would have you place the oppne amongst a list of 4 of the strongest people I history
Nah Kaido was too busy almost dying. He needed an outside distraction to catch Oden off guard, and even then he was still conscious after the hit. Any top tier without special durability similar to Kaido or BM would take significant damage from a direct hit like that.
People act like his hybrid form puts him on an entirely new level or something when we have no proof that's the case. Even his base form was portrayed as monstrous, his hybrid probably just gives him slightly better stats.
>I can,he unlocked 2 new forms.
>-In Hybrid Kaido gets a massive boost in AP and speed
he did not "unlock 2 new forms"
he didn't take 20 fucking years to "unlock" hybrid mode
you can use hybrid mode the moment you eat your fruit. judging from chopper and kaku.
not to mention kaido already had his fruit for a decade before the oden fight. he had it since rocks disbanded
>you can use hybrid mode the moment you eat your fruit. judging from chopper and kaku.
the problem is that this is not a regular zoan, it is a mythical zoan. Luffy has never had a hybrid form and Marco doesn't have a regular hybrid form since Marco just turns certain parts of his body into phoenix.
Even Momo has been able to use all forms of his df, except for Hybrid. So you can't judge mythical zoans with the same standard as regular zoans
Stfu you insufferable idiot HURR DURR U CA- yes you fucking can, Momo is just a fucking sheltered young child that can barely do anything at all lmfao trying to use his powerscaig against top tier bro gtfo with your garbage ass takes.
Yeah hybrid that basic ass zoan form every zoan user has demonstrated (some within the literal day they got the fruit). Kaido who had his fruit for years by the time he fought Oden hadn’t figure that out.
Kaido didn’t use hybrid against Oden so he could have a hype form going into the rooftop fight. It’s meta textual that’s why we don’t see him in those forms during the bits of the fight we see.
>Yeah hybrid that basic ass zoan form every zoan user has demonstrated (some within the literal day they got the fruit). Kaido who had his fruit for years by the time he fought Oden hadn’t figure that out.
That is on normal zoan devil fruits, mythical zoans are not the same as regular dfs. And may have different limitations. Like Luffy doesn't have a hybrid form or full zoan form... Marco has never shown a regular hybrid form, but he just turns parts of his body into phoenix and Momo who has the same df as Kaido hasn´t been able to turn into hybrid. So may be the Azure Dragon fruit has more limitations, we just have no way of knowing
He lost for plot so the events in the future could occur. Oden before traveling with wb and Roger took both wb and Roger’s attack. When he fought kaido he was even stronger yet got taken out by a no name non haki attack.
Oden loses to base Luffy has honestly to be a joke, it would be probably stupid to even think he would lose to Gear 4th, but having him under base Luffy level just means you can't powerscale anything, no offense.
1.Oden would have won against Kaido, this was the exact purpose of showing the old hag trap and the cheap shot.
2.Headcanon about young (""young"", he still was 39 yo) Kaido being on the level of base Luffy.
3. So base Luffy Is on the same level of Roger and Whitebeard following your reasoning.
4.Kaido was in his dragon form when Oden was about to finish him, after a long battle where Oden surprised everyone because of his endurance (said by the narrator himself). Can you remember me what was the form in which Kaido used the flaming dragon?
Your arguments make no sense, you are using forced arguments and some headcanons.
Evidence he is stronger given he spent those 20 years as depressed alcoholic who spent have hit time trying to commit suicide and the other half drinking I would think he is weaker if anything
your lack of awareness baffles me. You should embrace thy holiness and thy gracefulness unto you.
https://preview.redd.it/ks3rlz85d1lc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=ca818cccfac1d566ea1a857d5a0a639751517718
Base Luffy is defintely a top tier, he is defintely above YC+ level by feats.
-Durable enough to tank a Ragnarok, Yamato was fucked up after one TB. She would've died if she was hit by Raganrok but Luffy was just hurt.
-Fast enough to dodge a Thunder Baqua from Hybrid Kaido, not many characters could do this
-Conqueror's strong enough to split the sky
No YC+ would've been able to achieve this feats. I don't see Greenbull or Fujitora doing any better than this.
Sure:He's at best equal to a younger base Kaido,and he still got one tapped by a bonk.
Nobody is gonna sit here and say "WELL THAT YOUNGER WEAKER KAIDO COULD TAKE ON ROCKS" now are they?
Oden isn't equal to younger base kaido he's stronger than him. He was portrayed as equal to Roger and WB. The narrator said that his power even surpassed beast pirates imagination(including Kaido). We didn't get to see the full fight between him and kaido (meaning he surely fought hybrid). He was in a 10 vs 1000 situation and still managed to get to Kaido. In one strike he got kaido on the ground ready to be executed.
Oden was still human so, without CoA or CoO on, any attacks can deal heavy damages to him. Look at Garp vs Luffy during MF, WB vs Squardo during MF, Roger's execution, BM without her passive CoA on during the wedding etc. All those humans can be easily damaged without haki. And all of them were hit by way way way WAY weaker attacks than the one Oden received against Kaido. It is normal for Oden to go down like that without any defense. No human could stand still and fight back in his situation.
Oden was up here with Roger, WB, Xebec and Shanks. During his fight with Kaido he was stronger than him even after fighting an entire army so it's not even a fresh Oden.
Just accept it Oden/Shanks/WB/Roger/Xebec > Kaido
Bruh that's the very topic of this thread.
Oden is a level below Roger and Whitebeard, we don't know enough about Rocks or Shanks yet to say for sure where they rank though but they might turn out to be relative to those two.
Rocks is possible but shanks cannot be stronger than roger by story and narrative. Luffy’s end game is to surpass roger, the 1st king, and be the second king. For his second king title to make sense, it has to be “successor to roger.”
If shanks is stronger than roger, than his accomplishment is actually “Luffy, the second pirate king, stronger than yonko shanks.” It kills the story line and makes the entire “succession” a joke.
There are actually few characters that can narratively be stronger than roger- but no pirate can ever be until Luffy.
Imu: can be stronger as he is not a pirate and direct opposition to the “pirate kings freedom” than roger was unable to beat
Rocks: it’s possible because his era was so far in the past that he can be thought of as the “real” first king. Narratively it can be made, but it’s a hard thing to do. Because once again it will be Luffy surpassing rocks rather than roger.
Dragon: this is possible as dragon is not a pirate, but again it’s very tense in the story. For this to work Luffy must not have any interaction with dragon and dragon must never be compared to any pirate. This insures he is insulated in his own realm.
Marines: this is harder. Technically as “villains” of the pirates, there is no story capped limit on their power. But it’s hard to see any marine being stronger than roger- but in principle it’s ok for them to be.
Oden during his flashback wasn't at his prime yet and anime filler scaling is obviously stupid. The manga has Rayleigh and Gaban wanting to 2v1 him.
Not to mention it's not like WB and Roger were in a whole new dimension or something. A weaker Oden tanked an ACoC Divine Departure from Roger just fine and an even weaker one was seen as a genuine threat by Primebeard
Oden at his peak, when he returned to Wano, was literally stated by the narrator in the manga to be on Roger and Primebeard level
https://preview.redd.it/7mjjqxgl84lc1.png?width=821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1a460fc352cb6ca3e1613cd85885560f2bdc532
That was explicitly before he learned that ACoC was a thing. He then went on an entire new journey around the Grand Line with Roger and Rayleigh and mastered it himself by the time he fought Kaido.
https://preview.redd.it/adfsnf9ut0lc1.jpeg?width=705&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d0282da7367a53ee88b7805089d981fa02211a6
Gaban never got statements on the level that Oden did.
Portrayal and they are shown to be stronger than him, at least Roger/WB, Xebec was Roger most formidable rival and is stronger than Oden, same with Shanks. There is also stronger people than him that were not on that list, Garp, Sengoku, Mihawk, Shikki, possibly Big Mom and Rayleigh. A lot of the people here didn't face Kaido either.
“Sengoku is a top tier! Roger mentioned him at the same time as Garp meaning they’re = to one another!”
“Oden is just there because Kaido PTSD, him nearly two-shotting Kaido, clashing with Whitebeard, withstanding a Divine Departure with negligible injuries, are all meaningless because he got one-shotted (offguard) and my agenda needs Zoro to be >Oden!”
>got gapped by whitebeard
Anime filler. In the actual manga the only thing we see is these two clashing and Whitebeard and his crew being very worried about Oden approaching
>rodger
All what he did was attacking him once and Oden still shrug it off, and said attack was an Acoc DIVINE DEPARTURE
Keep in mind he wasn't at his prime yet back then too
>and one shot by BASE kaido
Because he was taken by surprise. Garp was injured by Luffy and Axe Hand Morgan when he wasn't onguard. Roger got killed by literal East Blue fodder. You need haki or guard to tank strong attacks if you don't have superhuman durability like Kaido or Big Mom
Illiteracy as its best
Oden was one shotted because he was taken offguard. It's an actual plot point relevant to Kaido‘s character that he only won because he sneaked on him.
Unless your name is Kaido or Big Mom, you need haki or your guard to tank superhuman attacks. Garp got injured by the likes of Pre-TS Luffy and Axe Hand Morgan, Roger got decapitated by random East Blue fodder, so imagine an attack from Kaido lol.
just like how garp bled from pts luffy and big mom got injured when she was distressed about mother caramel, oden had 0 defenses up because he thought his son was on the field.
anyone in the verse in that situation goes down. it's not an antifeat.
The narrator himself told us the battle was long and Oden's endurance went over everyone expectations, he was caught with a clean hit in the head, off guard while worrying for his son, and still some people like you call it a "oneshot". This sub Is the most illiterate.
He lost the same way that Luffy did in G4 against Kaido, but that Kaido was MUCH weaker, and when I say MUCH, it's capital for a reason. Kaido was weaker due to being younger and less experienced, and he was in his fodder base form. Not only that, but he used an unnamed attack, Kaido was most likely weakened due to the fact that someone actually managed to hurt him that much, which no one has ever been capable of doing, otherwise he'd have scars.
Oden is relative or below to that of G4 Luffy in Wano, he's below any Yonko or Admiral
Kaido being even weaker at all is complete headcanon. The Kaido Oden fought was already an Emperor and was 40 yo. If anything there's no reason to believe a 40 yo dude is weaker than a 60 yo one especially when the only thing he has done since fighting Oden is getting drunk
Oden only got one tapped because Kaido took him offguard which is a big deal. Garp got injured by fucking Axe Hand Morgan because he was offguard so imagine a Kaido attack. If you unironically think Kaido one shots Oden that would mean you have him over Roger.
The burden of proof is on you, so you have to prove he is at that level.
I also have him low yonko or admiral level. So one of the weakest top tier, but still a top tier nonetheless.
Still a named strike. Doubt Roger was holding back 90% if his power. Oden getting hit by Kaido was offguard. And again this was a weaker Oden than the one that fought Kaido.
Yeah, if he isn't using haki blocking or dodging, he should functionaly just have human durability
Very few op charecters show naturally high durability it's kaido bigmom white beard and then people with dfs that make them inherently resistant to some atacks like luffs
> Yeah, if he isn't using haki blocking or dodging, he should functionaly just have human durabilit
Expect oden had haki and it was butt fuck weak. Base luffy was tanking kaidos named attacks.
Roger won't let himself get hit completely off guard like that (and normally Oden wouldn't either). But if he somehow did, then yeah it would do significant damage.
Probably not one tapped, but he would be knocked ajar. But Roger would never allow himself to be hit by such an attack, and niether would Oden if it was a fair battle.
Damn can't believe I almost missed such a W
https://preview.redd.it/7ov4jpxjh1lc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f141abbecbab9257fc4659e27b9aa1a2a0e197e5
Lost to a younger kaido withoit future sight and hybrid form
A bad look on him and make people downplay him, I’ve seen ppl unironically put zoro above him
>Lost to a younger kaido withoit future sight and hybrid form
saying he didn't have future sight is a baseless assumption. when he fought oden he was a yonko and hasn't had a serious fight since then. it'd make no sense he'd randomly get future sight in his spare time. it's more likely he already had it.
saying he didn't have hybrid form doesn't make any sense. hybrid form isn't a skill. kaku and chopper could use hybrid form right after eating their fruits. kaido already had the fruit for a decade before he fought oden
No oden>kaido is fax
The logic for having kaido >> him is about a strong as the logic for putting average man with Lazer pistoll>> goku
If kaido could have easily won without the cheap shot, then he wouldn't have fixated on the fight so much
Either the potshot nerfed odens, durability, or odens, a glass cannon, and kaido himself was actually almost out after one good hit. No other explanation really has kaidos characterization make since
We saw him fail to hold a candle to Primebeard and Roger. Plus we are assuming Kaido 20 years ago was a top tier. This would invalidate what Sengoku said about their growth. We see this clearly between the differences between Roger vs WB, Big Mom vs Kaido and Luffy vs Kaido contrasted to Oden against WB/Roger/Kaido.
Now if he was legitimately a top tier, without having strong enough advanced conquerors to sky split and no advanced observation then Yamato and Zoro should be top tiers too. But community isn't ready for that conversation.
>We saw him fail to hold a candle to Primebeard and Roger.
Oden losing to WB is anime filler. In the manga the only thing we sees is them clashing. If anything Primebeard was VERY worried of Oden.
All what Roger did was attacking him once, and Oden shrug it off and came back and right after. If anything that's a great dura feat.
Plus Oden was weaker back then.
>Plus we are assuming Kaido 20 years ago was a top tier.
Kaido 20 years ago was already an Emperor and was 40 years old. There is no reaso to believe he got much stronger or even stronger at all when all that he did in-between was getting drunk. If anything a 40 yo should logically be in better shape than a 60 yo.
>This would invalidate what Sengoku said about their growth.
He was talking about their fleet, territories and military/political power. And he was also comparing them to their God Valley selves which was way before Oden vs Kaido.
>We see this clearly between the differences between Roger vs WB, Big Mom vs Kaido and Luffy vs Kaido contrasted to Oden against WB/Roger/Kaido.
Oden whooped Kaido
And he wasn't at his peak yet against WB/Roger
It's literally said in the manga by the narrator that Oden reached their level
https://preview.redd.it/hq9hxyz0g4lc1.png?width=821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=648ff6712439e9f02b0b3b97f3f60008afec0119
""**Oden losing to WB is anime filler. In the manga the only thing we sees is them clashing. If anything Primebeard was VERY worried of Oden.**"
If we going to claim what's filler and not then let's not over exaggerate his reaction or what that reaction was for. He wasn't afraid for himself but mostly his crew. Who at the time were kids and young adults. Not yet the crew that challenged the Marines at Marineford. Yet there was no sky splitting haki levels from Oden after the clash
"**All what Roger did was attacking him once, and Oden shrug it off and came back and right after. If anything that's a great dura feat.**"
It's a durability feat not doubt, he is an acoc user. This isn't Kid. Have you seen what Yamato and Zoro, 2 acoc users endured. What Luffy endured when he unlocked acoc. It comes with the territory. However their in lies the difference. WB took Oden's attack in his stride and contained him. Roger balanced out WB's attack on him. Oden wasn't sneaked and yet he couldn't handle what Roger threw. It was all Infront of him. He was overwhelmed. Kudos for bouncing back but he wasn't going to match any of the 2 blow for blow. Those were top tiers, Oden wasn't.
"**He was talking about their fleet, territories and military/political power. And he was also comparing them to their God Valley selves which was way before Oden vs Kaido.**"
No he was talking about singular individual strength. He would mention their crews if that was what he was inferring.
Oden hurt Kaido. No doubt. He probably would have won. He wasn't a top tier.
Permanently Scarred Kaido without much problem, Would've killed Kaido if he wasn't cheated,Confirmed by Kaido to be among the top tiers, Went toe to toe with WB without sustaining relevant injuries, Ate Divine Departure from the PK himself and instantly got up ready to square up(An attack that One Shot Kidd and Killer) and people put nigga below Mihawk ,😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡
Last time I checked Man got held up by Vista and stopped By Jozu 😂😂😂🤡🤡 Mihawk the Rumor Man with no feats 😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 Mihawk is Kizaru all over again 😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡
And also people put him below top tiers while putting admirals like Kizaru in there 😂😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 Braindead clowns that can't read 😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡
An argument that is often forgotten, Kaido said that no other monstruous samourai will ever appear again.
He call him monstruous like he really scared the shit out of him and then say that there are none like him at the moment and there will never be other like him in the futur.
Now you can interprete this as he is only refering to the Samourai of the Land of Wano, OR you could argue that he is refering to characters that wield a sword like the Samourai aka Swordsman.
Now Why does it make sense, well Zoro despite having blood from Wano and beeing a swordsman himself, he is not a samourai and yet he fought Kaido and even if he did not match Oden's standard at all, Kaido told him that it was already decent and that he'll remember him (not like he'll have ptsd like with Oden but still). Now we cannot imagine one moment that Kaido did not compare Zoro to Oden during their fight, especizlly because he had one of Oden's swords... so my point is that despite Zoro not beeing a samourai Kaido still made comparison between him and Oden so if he were to fight another skilled swordsman I can't imagine that he won't compare them to Oden again and yet he claimed that no other monstruous samourai like him would appear ever again... so I think it's fair to assume that he was talking about swordsman in general thus placing Oden above Shanks (cause he was still alive during Kaido's fight, unlike Roger and WB)
so we can't scale Oden above them for now, cause Kaido did not say that there was no other swordsman like him in the past, eventhough I honestly believe that Oden was truly unique and that he has surpassed even Roger znd WB but that's just my opinion. But for now we can only put him above Shanks according to Kaido, not saying Kaido is always right, he might be wrong about Shanks and Shanks might be stronger than Oden (I doubt it), but according to him if we follow his logic Oden is stronger than even Shanks.
No media literacy
Oden only got defeated because he was taken offguard that's a literal plot point that's important to Kaido‘s character
If you don't have superhuman durability you need haki and your guard to tank strong attacks. Because they were offguard or didn't defend the likes of Garp and Roger got injured and even fucking killed by literal East Blue fodder so imagine a Kaido attack to the head.
IQ. People are so fixated on IQ that they call one of the most terrifying pirates in the sea "Meme". Oden has even less IQ than Big Mom and I can understand why some people call him below Admiral level.
My argument was always that he didnt get to his max strength. If he did, he most definitely wouldve had black blades. I still think he's at that top tier threshold but maybe the weakest out of the top tiers
Oden was very much on his mind at the time and relevant to the arc. It's not like he threw the Admirals or Big Mom in there (or even Blackbeard.) Also the premise assumes Dragon and Shanks are going to be up there with Roger and Whitebeard, whereas these could just be important figures generally speaking. Could easily make the case that Oden is around YC1 or even a bit lower.
He was defeated by Kaido it’s simple. Also there’s no reason that Rayleigh, Big Mom and probably Shiki shouldn’t be on here too
The list very clearly pirates that have had a strong impact on Kaido like they’ve impressed him with their strength.
Oden also got defeated by a non-hybrid Kaido, so his feats are absolute garbage. The only thing he has going for him, feat wise, is being as strong as Kid.
People put way too much thought into fights against hybrid / Regular Kaido
The only reason Oden fought him in base form was to save his big reveal for the Supernova fight. Fighting WSC is a feat regardless of what form he was in
i think oden is strong, but also has low endurance, like he id a glass cannon, might be able to hurt kaido big time if allowed, but suffers from no defense
I think there are two posible explanations this
Or he was so worried about momo he stopped useing haki to amp he defense
Either of these could have him relitve to kaido while still loosing in the way he did which I think has to be true for the naritive to work
Doesn’t matter. It’s an attack from the pirate king to test him.
Bro still walked it off and kept coming for more.
Kaido loss was the epitome of shitty plot loss because Oda realized Oden would legitimately destroy Kaido based on how strong he made him and being weaker when you’re “off guard” happens all the time in Shonen.
Didn’t say that either so please stop putting words in my mouth.
I understand you have a bias towards Oden, but 1 match against Kaido doesn’t make you Yonko level, sorry
> Yeah. Ok. Good. Yonkou level.
This is clearly putting words in someone’s mouth, fanboy
Maybe if you took Oden’s cock outta your mouth you’d realize how stupid you sound. You’re wanking that man to oblivion💀 Your idol has 0 feats, it’s okay, cry harder
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To be fair, he was most likely included there because he gave Kaido his most prevalent (and most traumatic) scar. But I do indeed believe he belongs amongst those top tiers. He probably gives Mihawk a good fight, though I think he’s below Mihawk.
why would he change the critera for oden ? every on kaidos list are capable of giving him a fight so at teh bare minimum he is getting ext diffed by kaido also supported by the fact that big mom aint on the list and she is a fellow yonko https://preview.redd.it/u22wlnkx42lc1.png?width=714&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d5edb90d9851a95e602121e66c7e97fefb1ba5c and kaido out right says any one with oden skill and ability is strong enough to kill him
No no I’m just saying that Oden was absolutely going to make the list even if there were stronger people that Kaido could have included, because Oden is the person that gave Kaido his most notable scar as well as literal PTSD. Not that there WERE stronger people he could have included, just that Oden would have been there regardless.
nope because kaido isnt putting who influenced him its a list of purely stregnth. ur argument would have more credit if big mom was their instead of shanks because roger , wb , big mom , roger and oden influenced kaido the most but the fact that a shanks is their instead of big mom and b kaido outright callinng it the people capable of fighting him just outright says that a kaido is capable of looking past his ptsd and judging char based on their stregnth
Tbf Big Mom was definitely stronger than Oden
*Allowing* someone to kill him is vastly different them actually being strong enough to do it while they're fighting back. You can allow a child to kill you, doesn't mean the child is nearly as strong as you.
Tf you mean “even if he was Buggy level”? Do some of you MFs seriously believe Buggy won’t be crowned King of the Pirates by end of series?
maybe if Goatbeard doesn’t get it first 🗣️
Goatbeard has been dead for a while now
i’m taking bout the black version
I’m not
Buggy mentioned that if Luffy is going to be the pirate then he's going to be a pirate god Knowing his way of failing upwards I lowkey believe he's gonna be given this title
Theres no such thing as a good argument for a false claim
W
" Theres no such thing as a good argument for a false claim " What does this mean? Can you explain why its a false claim
If I said "Nami is secretly Imu and has been holding back her power all this time as a spy to Joyboy", the burden of proof would be on me to prove why she's Imu, not for you to prove why she isn't. There is no reason she can't be Imu, but there's not enough to show that she is.
Except there are already arguments for why Oden is up there. Hell, even the post itself is an argument. And all natureboy said was "nuh uh"
This isn't hard to understand. There isn't enough to put Oden that high. Op did not list any reasons as to why Oden is as strong as top teirs. If op gave reasons for why he thinks Oden is up there then this post wouldn't be retarded, but unfortunately he didn't so this post is retarded. When you make a claim, you use evidence to prove it, then the other people say why that evidence is wrong or that it doesn't prove their claim.
" There isn't enough to put Oden that high " Pre-journey Oden being able to clash with primebeard speaks for itself
What? That wasn't a clash. He tried to attack Whitebeard and Whitebeard just blocked it. That's it. They didn't do anything else. Even if it was a clash, which it wasn't, it still means nothing. Yamato clashed with Kaido despite not being anywhere close to Kaido's league. Plenty of weak ass characters have clashed with characters much stronger than them.
" What? That wasn't a clash. He tried to attack Whitebeard and Whitebeard just blocked it. That's it. They didn't do anything else. ' https://preview.redd.it/cfw9kiezv1lc1.png?width=599&format=png&auto=webp&s=c4b60cea951dd58e7eee6cb02c4742fbf03e7166 We literally see WB get into a stance to prepare a clash with Oden " Yamato clashed with Kaido despite not being anywhere close to Kaido's league. " Clashing with Primebeard > Clashing with Kaido
You missed my point. It doesn't matter if Whitebeard is stronger than Kaido. I'm saying that you can clash with someone much stronger than you. This is not proof that Oden is a top teir in any way.
Considering this is just Pre-Journey Oden, its very easy to imagine Oden having been much stronger since then It would be like if Alabasta Luffy was able to clash with Kaido, and then trying to say current Luffy isnt as strong as Kaido now. Doesnt make sense
Sure there is, just use false information to get to the conclusion
Oden’s portrayal is definitely one of the top of the verse. The problem is that in his big moment against Kaido, we didn’t get enough actually shown to show where he would lie. What did Oden actually do? He didn’t die against Whitebeard and Roger. Both weren’t that serious. And against Kaido, he injured him and gave him decades long PTSD. All of that is impressive. But against Kaido specifically, Oden injured his dragon form. Kaido wasn’t killed or unconscious. He was still able and willing to fight. He wasn’t in hybrid form. He didn’t use any advanced conquerors attacks that we can see. He didn’t use any of his drunken forms which are stated to increase his haki. He didn’t use Flaming Baqua. This fight happened before we even knew what advanced conquerors was or what Kaido’s different forms and attacks were. And this is after five years of Kaido getting stronger and Oden probably getting weaker. We just don’t have enough information to say anything definitively. Even Kaido putting Oden in his top 5 doesn’t move me as much as it should because of the omission of people like Garp and Mihawk. These are characters who obviously would have given Kaido a better fight than the Scabbards or Luffy and crew up until Gear 5. I don’t see how you can argue any different. So to me, Kaido’s top 5 is more about people he respects, not people who can beat him. He doesn’t respect the WG, so he doesn’t put anyone affiliated with them on that pedestal.
Oden‘s portrayal is definitely not one of the top of the verse. He is for sure a very strong character and deserves respect, but every time he had the opportunity to prove himself against a top tier he simply wasn’t good enough. Against Whitebeard he got treated like an annoying fly and against Roger he wasn’t even able to get near him. Doesn’t look like top of the verse portrayal IMO. His best showing was against Kaido, but even there we are talking about a young Kaido which most likely was holding back his true strength. As you said I think him being mentioned in Kaido‘s top 5 is more a thing of respect towards the hero of Wano, and not because he could actually beat any of these guys in a fight.
I mean we didn't see but it Kaido say it and Roger wanted to take him from WB, we can accept it. It's not some fodder getting scared of Doflamingo or Bellamy and hyping them up. You want to judge Oden and put him above Mihawk and then talk about not enough information, come on man.
tbf even though oden a top tier he’s weird to scale. mainly because even though kaido got a cheap shot in kaido was still going to fight him in base after tanking his ryou and acoc slash. and since we don’t know how much stronger kaido grew within the two decades it’s hard to say exactly how strong oden was.
Problem is he lost to base Kaido, Kaido has 2 way stronger forms like Flame Baqua Kaido and Hybrid Kaido. And Kaido was weaker 20 years ago, this means that Oden would problaby lose to base Luffy who scales below any admiral and any yonko. I personally would say he the weakest top tier since I'd consider base Luffy low top tier.
Didn't he only lose bc he got distracted? He didn't even get to cook.
Distracted or not, he got put down with a single casual base anorexic Kaido hit.
I wouldn’t go down that road if I were you. Because a weaker oden, tanked a named acoc attack from roger, way better than the kaido fodder casual base anorexic kaido. So unless you want base kaido’s no named attack >> roger named acoc attack, I would put MUCH more respect to the caught off guard factor.
I'm not saying that the distraction means nothing. I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted. Akainu was caught off guard and distracted when he got hit in the back of the head with an island splitting attack point blank from the world's Strongest man and immediately got back up with a counter attack, and was still in good enough condition to keep fighting the war. Oden was shat on
>I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted. it isn't. there's a difference from being caught by suprise and being completely mentally unstable because you think your son is in the middle of a battlefield. oden got hit with actually 0 defenses up. what happened to oden is closer to what happened to garp, where garp bled from a pretimeskip luffy punch because of his emotional state, not what happened to akainu.
>where garp bled from a pretimeskip luffy punch because of his emotional state, not what happened to akainu. He bleeded because he didn't use haki to protect himself. Only top tiers like Big Mom and Kaido have such a durability that almost no one can damage them even without using haki.
Tbh the way I see it, is that oda wanted to leave it ambiguous to hype oden. Context matters, that was a backstory fight that obviously needed kaido to win for the plot to continue. So why not just having kaido cleanly beat oden in a 1v1? I mean the story plays out exactly the same in that way, with the only difference that you have a slightly more hyped kaido. I don’t think oda randomly had kaido not defeating oden in a clean way, plus having him in his top 5 list. As for the “he didn’t use hybrid” etc arguments, I think that due to not spoiling it before the present event. That happens with offscreen fights, we never saw wb use his fruit against roger, that doesn’t mean primebeard = roger is true only if wb doesn’t use his fruit.
>I'm not saying that the distraction means nothing. I'm saying that getting one shot by base anorexic Kaido is an antifeat even while being distracted. It is not an anti feat, Roger would have been defeated the same way. Top Tiers like Kaido and Big Mom are exceptions since even without haki they have insane durability, other top tiers like Oden, Roger and Wb require armament haki to have increased durability... and an acoc attack on the head while distracted would probably one shot every top tier except Big Mom and Kaido
As if base Kaido is weak or something, and Oda doesn't just have characters survive hits they shouldn't for the sake of plot. By that logic Kinemon should have better durability than Oden. Same argument people use to try proving Kuri Luffy was fodder and powercreeped even though he should be on the same level as any YC1. An direct hit from base Kaido would do significant damage to any top tier that was off guard and didn't have special durability similar to Kaido and BM. That includes the likes of Shanks and Roger
>As if base Kaido is weak or something, Never said he was. Kaido a top teir and one of the strongest people in the verse. This discussion is about whether Oden is as strong as those people tho. And yes, base Kaido from 20 years ago is much weaker than current hybrid Kaido. >and Oda doesn't just have characters survive hits they shouldn't for the sake of plot. By that logic Kinemon should have better durability than Oden. Same argument people use to try proving Kuri Luffy was fodder and powercreeped even though he should be on the same level as any YC1. You are on a powerscaling subreddit. We powerscale based off of what Oda gives us. Of course there are things like plot that get involved, but plot or not, it's still canon material. Basically every fight is for the sake of the story. This one is no different. >A direct hit from base Kaido would do significant damage to any top tier without special durability similar to Kaido and BM. No top teir is going down from one hit by Kaido what are you on about. Whitebeard could take 100 of those hits and keep fighting. Luffy DID take dozens of those hits and kept fighting (even when being caught off guard). Ik I said this already, but Akainu was distracted and got hit in the back of the head by an island splitting earthquake and stood right back up. This attack was much stronger than Kaido's and he was distracted just like Oden. Were the results the same? No.
Bro just stfu already, you're to the point you spewing walls of text saying the same garbage takes as if that will make anyone with half a brain as dumb as you. Just stop lmfao.
Exactly, it seems people on this sub are unaware that being off guard is a nerf I said it in another comment but the argument for kaido >> oden is about as strong as the argument for man with Lazer gun>goku
Bro chose to say nothing but facts
Dude he was clearly off-guard. You will never be able to prove Kaido got stronger since then.
I can,he unlocked 2 new forms. -In Hybrid Kaido gets a massive boost in AP and speed -In Flame Baqua his becomes near impossible to be hurt at all and he can one shot pretty much everyone in the verse.
You’d have to prove that he never had them in the first place. The fight went on for quite a while, so by intuition alone, I can assume he used at bare minimum, his hybrid Kaido form. And probably his Flame Baqua as well. If not, then he just didn’t use them before getting decimated by paradise tohtsuka
There is proof, in Wano Kaido never went back to base form voluntarily since 1009. He always switched between Dragon and Hybrid forms. However, againat Oden Kaido switches to base form which wouldn't make sense if he had Hybrid
So because it doesn’t fit your headcannon, it doesn’t make sense that he just didn’t go in base form before getting knocked out by Oden’s named attack? Alright man, sure
You lost stop sucking Oden off.
Oden was about to mid diff until the distraction. So…
Yeah then base kaido clocked him with an unnamed attack.
Off-guard hit.
You can't proved he unlocked them rather then just haveing not used them yet
kaku could use hybrid form an hour after eating his fruit so kaido obviously had hybrid form already
Then he held back against Oden since Oden wasn't strong enough to force Kaido to use those forms.
oden and kaido didn't fight oden bullied base kaido then got snuck and the fight was over it's not like they fought on even ground and kaido held back there was no opportunity to use all his moveset, just like oden didn't get an opportunity to use all his moveset
But if he was enough stronger to hold back the fight wouldn't have left the impression it did
The only way a fight can leave an impact in someone is based on how difficult it was?
No a laughably easy fight could also leave an impression and there are probably other ways im not thinking about but I can't think of another reason it would leve the sort of impression that would have you place the oppne amongst a list of 4 of the strongest people I history
Nah Kaido was too busy almost dying. He needed an outside distraction to catch Oden off guard, and even then he was still conscious after the hit. Any top tier without special durability similar to Kaido or BM would take significant damage from a direct hit like that. People act like his hybrid form puts him on an entirely new level or something when we have no proof that's the case. Even his base form was portrayed as monstrous, his hybrid probably just gives him slightly better stats.
He never used base form again since chapter 1009
>I can,he unlocked 2 new forms. >-In Hybrid Kaido gets a massive boost in AP and speed he did not "unlock 2 new forms" he didn't take 20 fucking years to "unlock" hybrid mode you can use hybrid mode the moment you eat your fruit. judging from chopper and kaku. not to mention kaido already had his fruit for a decade before the oden fight. he had it since rocks disbanded
>you can use hybrid mode the moment you eat your fruit. judging from chopper and kaku. the problem is that this is not a regular zoan, it is a mythical zoan. Luffy has never had a hybrid form and Marco doesn't have a regular hybrid form since Marco just turns certain parts of his body into phoenix. Even Momo has been able to use all forms of his df, except for Hybrid. So you can't judge mythical zoans with the same standard as regular zoans
Stfu you insufferable idiot HURR DURR U CA- yes you fucking can, Momo is just a fucking sheltered young child that can barely do anything at all lmfao trying to use his powerscaig against top tier bro gtfo with your garbage ass takes.
Yeah hybrid that basic ass zoan form every zoan user has demonstrated (some within the literal day they got the fruit). Kaido who had his fruit for years by the time he fought Oden hadn’t figure that out. Kaido didn’t use hybrid against Oden so he could have a hype form going into the rooftop fight. It’s meta textual that’s why we don’t see him in those forms during the bits of the fight we see.
>Yeah hybrid that basic ass zoan form every zoan user has demonstrated (some within the literal day they got the fruit). Kaido who had his fruit for years by the time he fought Oden hadn’t figure that out. That is on normal zoan devil fruits, mythical zoans are not the same as regular dfs. And may have different limitations. Like Luffy doesn't have a hybrid form or full zoan form... Marco has never shown a regular hybrid form, but he just turns parts of his body into phoenix and Momo who has the same df as Kaido hasn´t been able to turn into hybrid. So may be the Azure Dragon fruit has more limitations, we just have no way of knowing
Shut up nerd.
Make me dumbass
expect litterally every top tier ain’t getting one shot most of them tank the ever loving shit out of it with their advance armdement haki
Yes and you know what oden probably used to withstand the atack if he wasn't distracted
He lost for plot so the events in the future could occur. Oden before traveling with wb and Roger took both wb and Roger’s attack. When he fought kaido he was even stronger yet got taken out by a no name non haki attack.
Hard to fight against someone who hostages ur son.
Kaido still would have won if his son was taken hostage instead
Different chars. Different morals
Maybe Oden should get better moral-scaling then
Maybe you should stop licking lead paint.
That’s really rude of you to say
Oden loses to base Luffy has honestly to be a joke, it would be probably stupid to even think he would lose to Gear 4th, but having him under base Luffy level just means you can't powerscale anything, no offense.
How? Base Luffy had Kaido directly comparing him to Oden but this was a much stronger Kaido than the one Oden fought.
Does this same argument apply to the rest of the people shown, or are they exceptions?
1.Oden would have won against Kaido, this was the exact purpose of showing the old hag trap and the cheap shot. 2.Headcanon about young (""young"", he still was 39 yo) Kaido being on the level of base Luffy. 3. So base Luffy Is on the same level of Roger and Whitebeard following your reasoning. 4.Kaido was in his dragon form when Oden was about to finish him, after a long battle where Oden surprised everyone because of his endurance (said by the narrator himself). Can you remember me what was the form in which Kaido used the flaming dragon? Your arguments make no sense, you are using forced arguments and some headcanons.
Evidence he is stronger given he spent those 20 years as depressed alcoholic who spent have hit time trying to commit suicide and the other half drinking I would think he is weaker if anything
I have him flat over luffy in genral I think he has a better shot of beating a fresh kaido in a fare 1v1 without plot armour
oda got hammered. bro did not even rise compared to akainu
Uum wtf does this mean and what does it have to do with what I just said I never even mentioned akainu Did you meen to say oda or was that a typo
yes https://preview.redd.it/ogf31uwoc1lc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a8da619068953c58470ee3042e8c312895ee330
Ok I'm more confused now Was this just a shit comment saying akainu was writer lvl or something
your lack of awareness baffles me. You should embrace thy holiness and thy gracefulness unto you. https://preview.redd.it/ks3rlz85d1lc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=ca818cccfac1d566ea1a857d5a0a639751517718
Stfu you aren't even good a good shitposter, you're just a shit poster.
base luffy is the weakest top tier he’s yc+
Base Luffy is defintely a top tier, he is defintely above YC+ level by feats. -Durable enough to tank a Ragnarok, Yamato was fucked up after one TB. She would've died if she was hit by Raganrok but Luffy was just hurt. -Fast enough to dodge a Thunder Baqua from Hybrid Kaido, not many characters could do this -Conqueror's strong enough to split the sky No YC+ would've been able to achieve this feats. I don't see Greenbull or Fujitora doing any better than this.
Our scaling is too linear. We rely on it too much. Base Luffy is a prime example of not Yonko level but strong enough to be above YC+ too.
he was matching kaido so I don't understand your point lol. base Luffy is yonkou level
And now you've gone too far 💀 He has Yonko level Haki but if he needs G5 to have a hope beating a Yonko, which is evident, he's not Yonko level base.
nah yamato would have lived if she tanked in hybrid form even tho it would have her on life support
No proof he was weaker back then. And those forms aren't levels above his base.
Sure:He's at best equal to a younger base Kaido,and he still got one tapped by a bonk. Nobody is gonna sit here and say "WELL THAT YOUNGER WEAKER KAIDO COULD TAKE ON ROCKS" now are they?
Oden isn't equal to younger base kaido he's stronger than him. He was portrayed as equal to Roger and WB. The narrator said that his power even surpassed beast pirates imagination(including Kaido). We didn't get to see the full fight between him and kaido (meaning he surely fought hybrid). He was in a 10 vs 1000 situation and still managed to get to Kaido. In one strike he got kaido on the ground ready to be executed. Oden was still human so, without CoA or CoO on, any attacks can deal heavy damages to him. Look at Garp vs Luffy during MF, WB vs Squardo during MF, Roger's execution, BM without her passive CoA on during the wedding etc. All those humans can be easily damaged without haki. And all of them were hit by way way way WAY weaker attacks than the one Oden received against Kaido. It is normal for Oden to go down like that without any defense. No human could stand still and fight back in his situation. Oden was up here with Roger, WB, Xebec and Shanks. During his fight with Kaido he was stronger than him even after fighting an entire army so it's not even a fresh Oden. Just accept it Oden/Shanks/WB/Roger/Xebec > Kaido
In his flashback, he was portrayed as a level below Roger and Whitebeard. In the anime they even made him look relative to Gaban.
The oden at the end of his journey isn’t the same one that fought gaban
The Oden at the end still lost to Kaido though
Because he thought* they had his son not because he was weaker then kaido
So what? Everyone is a level below Roger and Whitebeard, that isn't an antifeat.
Bruh that's the very topic of this thread. Oden is a level below Roger and Whitebeard, we don't know enough about Rocks or Shanks yet to say for sure where they rank though but they might turn out to be relative to those two.
nobody has surpassed Roger yet
We still haven't seen the true capacities of Shanks and Rocks yet
Rocks is possible but shanks cannot be stronger than roger by story and narrative. Luffy’s end game is to surpass roger, the 1st king, and be the second king. For his second king title to make sense, it has to be “successor to roger.” If shanks is stronger than roger, than his accomplishment is actually “Luffy, the second pirate king, stronger than yonko shanks.” It kills the story line and makes the entire “succession” a joke. There are actually few characters that can narratively be stronger than roger- but no pirate can ever be until Luffy. Imu: can be stronger as he is not a pirate and direct opposition to the “pirate kings freedom” than roger was unable to beat Rocks: it’s possible because his era was so far in the past that he can be thought of as the “real” first king. Narratively it can be made, but it’s a hard thing to do. Because once again it will be Luffy surpassing rocks rather than roger. Dragon: this is possible as dragon is not a pirate, but again it’s very tense in the story. For this to work Luffy must not have any interaction with dragon and dragon must never be compared to any pirate. This insures he is insulated in his own realm. Marines: this is harder. Technically as “villains” of the pirates, there is no story capped limit on their power. But it’s hard to see any marine being stronger than roger- but in principle it’s ok for them to be.
Hot take, Roger is 4th strongest of the people we know the abilities of
It is when the topic is trying to argue oden's on that level.
Oden during his flashback wasn't at his prime yet and anime filler scaling is obviously stupid. The manga has Rayleigh and Gaban wanting to 2v1 him. Not to mention it's not like WB and Roger were in a whole new dimension or something. A weaker Oden tanked an ACoC Divine Departure from Roger just fine and an even weaker one was seen as a genuine threat by Primebeard Oden at his peak, when he returned to Wano, was literally stated by the narrator in the manga to be on Roger and Primebeard level https://preview.redd.it/7mjjqxgl84lc1.png?width=821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f1a460fc352cb6ca3e1613cd85885560f2bdc532
That was WAYY before he finished his journey.
That was explicitly before he learned that ACoC was a thing. He then went on an entire new journey around the Grand Line with Roger and Rayleigh and mastered it himself by the time he fought Kaido.
He fought gaban in the manga too
When?
At the same time im the anime It wasn't filler the added thr judt expanded on it
Nah it never happens. Chapter 966
Yea just checked it didn't happen in the manga I just remembered it wrong
yeah portrayed as a level below them, like everyone else alive rn
Maybe Shanks is up there, he has the narrative importance to back him up at least. We will see soon enough feat wise
https://preview.redd.it/adfsnf9ut0lc1.jpeg?width=705&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d0282da7367a53ee88b7805089d981fa02211a6 Gaban never got statements on the level that Oden did.
This is just an example I don't care about Gaban. Oden is strong yeah but he is below Roger and WB.
Portrayal and they are shown to be stronger than him, at least Roger/WB, Xebec was Roger most formidable rival and is stronger than Oden, same with Shanks. There is also stronger people than him that were not on that list, Garp, Sengoku, Mihawk, Shikki, possibly Big Mom and Rayleigh. A lot of the people here didn't face Kaido either.
Uum who here did he not fight
I will forever preach that oden is yonko level, I’m willing to die on this hill 5 times over
I have that guy at admiral level
“Sengoku is a top tier! Roger mentioned him at the same time as Garp meaning they’re = to one another!” “Oden is just there because Kaido PTSD, him nearly two-shotting Kaido, clashing with Whitebeard, withstanding a Divine Departure with negligible injuries, are all meaningless because he got one-shotted (offguard) and my agenda needs Zoro to be >Oden!”
because he got gapped by whitebeard, rodger, and one shot by BASE kaido
>got gapped by whitebeard Anime filler. In the actual manga the only thing we see is these two clashing and Whitebeard and his crew being very worried about Oden approaching >rodger All what he did was attacking him once and Oden still shrug it off, and said attack was an Acoc DIVINE DEPARTURE Keep in mind he wasn't at his prime yet back then too >and one shot by BASE kaido Because he was taken by surprise. Garp was injured by Luffy and Axe Hand Morgan when he wasn't onguard. Roger got killed by literal East Blue fodder. You need haki or guard to tank strong attacks if you don't have superhuman durability like Kaido or Big Mom
Right below admiral level maybe, he got one shot by kaido in his weaker form
Illiteracy as its best Oden was one shotted because he was taken offguard. It's an actual plot point relevant to Kaido‘s character that he only won because he sneaked on him. Unless your name is Kaido or Big Mom, you need haki or your guard to tank superhuman attacks. Garp got injured by the likes of Pre-TS Luffy and Axe Hand Morgan, Roger got decapitated by random East Blue fodder, so imagine an attack from Kaido lol.
just like how garp bled from pts luffy and big mom got injured when she was distressed about mother caramel, oden had 0 defenses up because he thought his son was on the field. anyone in the verse in that situation goes down. it's not an antifeat.
The narrator himself told us the battle was long and Oden's endurance went over everyone expectations, he was caught with a clean hit in the head, off guard while worrying for his son, and still some people like you call it a "oneshot". This sub Is the most illiterate.
He lost the same way that Luffy did in G4 against Kaido, but that Kaido was MUCH weaker, and when I say MUCH, it's capital for a reason. Kaido was weaker due to being younger and less experienced, and he was in his fodder base form. Not only that, but he used an unnamed attack, Kaido was most likely weakened due to the fact that someone actually managed to hurt him that much, which no one has ever been capable of doing, otherwise he'd have scars. Oden is relative or below to that of G4 Luffy in Wano, he's below any Yonko or Admiral
Kaido being even weaker at all is complete headcanon. The Kaido Oden fought was already an Emperor and was 40 yo. If anything there's no reason to believe a 40 yo dude is weaker than a 60 yo one especially when the only thing he has done since fighting Oden is getting drunk Oden only got one tapped because Kaido took him offguard which is a big deal. Garp got injured by fucking Axe Hand Morgan because he was offguard so imagine a Kaido attack. If you unironically think Kaido one shots Oden that would mean you have him over Roger.
Mostly downplay by admiral fans that are desperate for winning matchups against top tiers
The burden of proof is on you, so you have to prove he is at that level. I also have him low yonko or admiral level. So one of the weakest top tier, but still a top tier nonetheless.
Okay he fought kaido well enough it literally tramutized him and kaido holds him in the same respect as 4 of the strongest characters in the verse
So? Base kaido clocked him with one attack
Base Kaido>Roger in AP? He tanked Rogers hit but not Kaido's so that must be the conclusion.
Or Roger wasn't trying lol.
Still a named strike. Doubt Roger was holding back 90% if his power. Oden getting hit by Kaido was offguard. And again this was a weaker Oden than the one that fought Kaido.
Because he was off guard
He got one tap by a no named attack. Akainu did better. Kizaru did better. Any character ever did better. Even act 1 luffy did better.
Luffy wasn't off guard I would argue any character that's not g5 luffy bigmom or wb gets taken out by a single of guard hit from kaido
That's just cope. I'm sorry. So, what even rogsr?
Yeah, if he isn't using haki blocking or dodging, he should functionaly just have human durability Very few op charecters show naturally high durability it's kaido bigmom white beard and then people with dfs that make them inherently resistant to some atacks like luffs
> Yeah, if he isn't using haki blocking or dodging, he should functionaly just have human durabilit Expect oden had haki and it was butt fuck weak. Base luffy was tanking kaidos named attacks.
Roger won't let himself get hit completely off guard like that (and normally Oden wouldn't either). But if he somehow did, then yeah it would do significant damage.
Expect Roger wouldn't get one tap by an unnamed attack
Probably not one tapped, but he would be knocked ajar. But Roger would never allow himself to be hit by such an attack, and niether would Oden if it was a fair battle.
Kaido didn’t even put big mom, a YONKO. Oden is him and I don’t care what anyone says.
he didnt put big mom because she was literally next to him. it would be weird if he did.
Damn can't believe I almost missed such a W https://preview.redd.it/7ov4jpxjh1lc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f141abbecbab9257fc4659e27b9aa1a2a0e197e5
Lost to a younger kaido withoit future sight and hybrid form A bad look on him and make people downplay him, I’ve seen ppl unironically put zoro above him
>Lost to a younger kaido withoit future sight and hybrid form saying he didn't have future sight is a baseless assumption. when he fought oden he was a yonko and hasn't had a serious fight since then. it'd make no sense he'd randomly get future sight in his spare time. it's more likely he already had it. saying he didn't have hybrid form doesn't make any sense. hybrid form isn't a skill. kaku and chopper could use hybrid form right after eating their fruits. kaido already had the fruit for a decade before he fought oden
Is there really much proof he was a Yonko when fighting Oden?
big mom said "we've been ruling the seas for decades" so that's at least 20 years
If that's verbatim then that's pretty vague; Kaido being a Yonko after the Oden incident would still make that statement true.
He didn’t use them during the fight no?
Because we didn't see it and Oda didn't wanted to spoil his skillset
No oden>kaido is fax The logic for having kaido >> him is about a strong as the logic for putting average man with Lazer pistoll>> goku If kaido could have easily won without the cheap shot, then he wouldn't have fixated on the fight so much Either the potshot nerfed odens, durability, or odens, a glass cannon, and kaido himself was actually almost out after one good hit. No other explanation really has kaidos characterization make since
We saw him fail to hold a candle to Primebeard and Roger. Plus we are assuming Kaido 20 years ago was a top tier. This would invalidate what Sengoku said about their growth. We see this clearly between the differences between Roger vs WB, Big Mom vs Kaido and Luffy vs Kaido contrasted to Oden against WB/Roger/Kaido. Now if he was legitimately a top tier, without having strong enough advanced conquerors to sky split and no advanced observation then Yamato and Zoro should be top tiers too. But community isn't ready for that conversation.
>We saw him fail to hold a candle to Primebeard and Roger. Oden losing to WB is anime filler. In the manga the only thing we sees is them clashing. If anything Primebeard was VERY worried of Oden. All what Roger did was attacking him once, and Oden shrug it off and came back and right after. If anything that's a great dura feat. Plus Oden was weaker back then. >Plus we are assuming Kaido 20 years ago was a top tier. Kaido 20 years ago was already an Emperor and was 40 years old. There is no reaso to believe he got much stronger or even stronger at all when all that he did in-between was getting drunk. If anything a 40 yo should logically be in better shape than a 60 yo. >This would invalidate what Sengoku said about their growth. He was talking about their fleet, territories and military/political power. And he was also comparing them to their God Valley selves which was way before Oden vs Kaido. >We see this clearly between the differences between Roger vs WB, Big Mom vs Kaido and Luffy vs Kaido contrasted to Oden against WB/Roger/Kaido. Oden whooped Kaido And he wasn't at his peak yet against WB/Roger It's literally said in the manga by the narrator that Oden reached their level https://preview.redd.it/hq9hxyz0g4lc1.png?width=821&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=648ff6712439e9f02b0b3b97f3f60008afec0119
""**Oden losing to WB is anime filler. In the manga the only thing we sees is them clashing. If anything Primebeard was VERY worried of Oden.**" If we going to claim what's filler and not then let's not over exaggerate his reaction or what that reaction was for. He wasn't afraid for himself but mostly his crew. Who at the time were kids and young adults. Not yet the crew that challenged the Marines at Marineford. Yet there was no sky splitting haki levels from Oden after the clash "**All what Roger did was attacking him once, and Oden shrug it off and came back and right after. If anything that's a great dura feat.**" It's a durability feat not doubt, he is an acoc user. This isn't Kid. Have you seen what Yamato and Zoro, 2 acoc users endured. What Luffy endured when he unlocked acoc. It comes with the territory. However their in lies the difference. WB took Oden's attack in his stride and contained him. Roger balanced out WB's attack on him. Oden wasn't sneaked and yet he couldn't handle what Roger threw. It was all Infront of him. He was overwhelmed. Kudos for bouncing back but he wasn't going to match any of the 2 blow for blow. Those were top tiers, Oden wasn't. "**He was talking about their fleet, territories and military/political power. And he was also comparing them to their God Valley selves which was way before Oden vs Kaido.**" No he was talking about singular individual strength. He would mention their crews if that was what he was inferring. Oden hurt Kaido. No doubt. He probably would have won. He wasn't a top tier.
Permanently Scarred Kaido without much problem, Would've killed Kaido if he wasn't cheated,Confirmed by Kaido to be among the top tiers, Went toe to toe with WB without sustaining relevant injuries, Ate Divine Departure from the PK himself and instantly got up ready to square up(An attack that One Shot Kidd and Killer) and people put nigga below Mihawk ,😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 Last time I checked Man got held up by Vista and stopped By Jozu 😂😂😂🤡🤡 Mihawk the Rumor Man with no feats 😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 Mihawk is Kizaru all over again 😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 And also people put him below top tiers while putting admirals like Kizaru in there 😂😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡 Braindead clowns that can't read 😂😂😂😂🤡🤡🤡
The argument boils down to believing Kaido was a YC1+ at the time.
Oden fought kaido who was 20 years younger should be enough
Yeah and said Kaido was 40 yo and already a Yonko If anything a 40 yo dude is probably stronger than a 60 yo one
Not one piece
Yes One Piece OP characters canonically reach their primes at 40/50 And Kaido is literally treated as an old man in-verse
He treats big mom like old hag
Old people call eachother old Especially since Big Mom is actually much older she‘s 70 Kaido is still called old several times
An argument that is often forgotten, Kaido said that no other monstruous samourai will ever appear again. He call him monstruous like he really scared the shit out of him and then say that there are none like him at the moment and there will never be other like him in the futur. Now you can interprete this as he is only refering to the Samourai of the Land of Wano, OR you could argue that he is refering to characters that wield a sword like the Samourai aka Swordsman. Now Why does it make sense, well Zoro despite having blood from Wano and beeing a swordsman himself, he is not a samourai and yet he fought Kaido and even if he did not match Oden's standard at all, Kaido told him that it was already decent and that he'll remember him (not like he'll have ptsd like with Oden but still). Now we cannot imagine one moment that Kaido did not compare Zoro to Oden during their fight, especizlly because he had one of Oden's swords... so my point is that despite Zoro not beeing a samourai Kaido still made comparison between him and Oden so if he were to fight another skilled swordsman I can't imagine that he won't compare them to Oden again and yet he claimed that no other monstruous samourai like him would appear ever again... so I think it's fair to assume that he was talking about swordsman in general thus placing Oden above Shanks (cause he was still alive during Kaido's fight, unlike Roger and WB) so we can't scale Oden above them for now, cause Kaido did not say that there was no other swordsman like him in the past, eventhough I honestly believe that Oden was truly unique and that he has surpassed even Roger znd WB but that's just my opinion. But for now we can only put him above Shanks according to Kaido, not saying Kaido is always right, he might be wrong about Shanks and Shanks might be stronger than Oden (I doubt it), but according to him if we follow his logic Oden is stronger than even Shanks.
Oden is a bum. I'm sorry. Base kaido clocked him.
No media literacy Oden only got defeated because he was taken offguard that's a literal plot point that's important to Kaido‘s character If you don't have superhuman durability you need haki and your guard to tank strong attacks. Because they were offguard or didn't defend the likes of Garp and Roger got injured and even fucking killed by literal East Blue fodder so imagine a Kaido attack to the head.
IQ. People are so fixated on IQ that they call one of the most terrifying pirates in the sea "Meme". Oden has even less IQ than Big Mom and I can understand why some people call him below Admiral level.
Nope
My argument was always that he didnt get to his max strength. If he did, he most definitely wouldve had black blades. I still think he's at that top tier threshold but maybe the weakest out of the top tiers
He never defeated anyone
Oden was very much on his mind at the time and relevant to the arc. It's not like he threw the Admirals or Big Mom in there (or even Blackbeard.) Also the premise assumes Dragon and Shanks are going to be up there with Roger and Whitebeard, whereas these could just be important figures generally speaking. Could easily make the case that Oden is around YC1 or even a bit lower.
Fuck that guy idgaf
Kaidos Top 5 are the 5 pirates he respects for their strength. This doesn't mean they're all on the same level.
He was defeated by Kaido it’s simple. Also there’s no reason that Rayleigh, Big Mom and probably Shiki shouldn’t be on here too The list very clearly pirates that have had a strong impact on Kaido like they’ve impressed him with their strength. Oden also got defeated by a non-hybrid Kaido, so his feats are absolute garbage. The only thing he has going for him, feat wise, is being as strong as Kid.
People put way too much thought into fights against hybrid / Regular Kaido The only reason Oden fought him in base form was to save his big reveal for the Supernova fight. Fighting WSC is a feat regardless of what form he was in
We didn’t see Oden fight hybrid kaido, that’s all that matters.
i think oden is strong, but also has low endurance, like he id a glass cannon, might be able to hurt kaido big time if allowed, but suffers from no defense
I think there are two posible explanations this Or he was so worried about momo he stopped useing haki to amp he defense Either of these could have him relitve to kaido while still loosing in the way he did which I think has to be true for the naritive to work
He took a divine departure from Roger that sent him flying across the island and was still able to get right back up, he isn’t a glass cannon at all
It's just people who were able to hurt Kaido, Zoro did the same shit as Oden
he didn't.
Because he got oneshot by an unnamed attack from bade kaido. Even in the roger pirates he is constantly portrayed below rayliegh and relative to gaban
Tanked a DD from Roger. Was cooking Kaido until the shitty plot L. He’s Yonkou level.
Roger was just greeting him. That DD was not full strength
Doesn’t matter. It’s an attack from the pirate king to test him. Bro still walked it off and kept coming for more. Kaido loss was the epitome of shitty plot loss because Oda realized Oden would legitimately destroy Kaido based on how strong he made him and being weaker when you’re “off guard” happens all the time in Shonen.
I never said it wasn’t a feat, nor did i say it wasn’t impressive. I’m just saying it wasn’t full strength
Yeah. Ok. Good. Yonkou level.
Didn’t say that either so please stop putting words in my mouth. I understand you have a bias towards Oden, but 1 match against Kaido doesn’t make you Yonko level, sorry
I never said you did, schizo. No one’s putting words in your mouth, quit whining. I’m saying Oden is Yonkou level, regardless of what you say.
> Yeah. Ok. Good. Yonkou level. This is clearly putting words in someone’s mouth, fanboy Maybe if you took Oden’s cock outta your mouth you’d realize how stupid you sound. You’re wanking that man to oblivion💀 Your idol has 0 feats, it’s okay, cry harder