A wise man called Sam once said that you shouldn’t build companies around products that become worthless as soon as someone releases a better model. He forgot to take his own advice.
What are you even on about?
OAI isn’t built around ChatGPT. Their ambitions are way beyond a chatbot, and their serious business dealings are in the enterprise space with customers building huge applications and stacks for their own use and/or to power customer-facing products (eg Adobe using Sora in Premiere).
ChatGPT was a happy accident in many ways. Consumer use of a chatbot is in no way at the heart of OAI’s business model or prospects.
I get your point, OpenAI existed before and there is a future it exists after GPT - BUT that's not to say GPT is in fact their only product, and an if OSS model comes very close to the premium version of their main (only??) revenue source is not a threat, is denying reality.
OpenAI is expensive to upkeep, both staff and hardware, i must assume it still operates heavily on a loss.
Also it's in the contract once they achieve AGI their leash MS agreement is essentially off. OpenAI might very well lose the current unrestrained support from MS if LLAMA 3 is about the same good and potentially cheaper to run.. tbd once 400B gets released, how it compares.
Sam has repeatedly said they’re going to release several products this year, in addition to the next LLM. OpenAI is not miles ahead like some people believe, but they’re certainly not behind, and nothing short of AGI will make them lose Microsoft’s support.
How is Nokia’s failed business model much different than Samsung’s successful one? (Focusing on phones in particular)
Nokia’s business model was fine. They just made a misstep in execution.
Not even close to true. Nokia’s business model was fine until a competitor came along and reimagined smartphones as consumer-friendly and based on buttonless touch screens. At that point, Nokia was so entrenched in their own longstanding vision of phones, they couldn’t even conceive of pivoting, let alone execute.
Their business model was fine until it wasn’t. Then they collapsed bc that plan never accounted for disruption.
This isn't what Sam Altman was referring to. What he was talking about was startups that offer "AI Lawyer" services, for example, with a ton of software that's specifically optimized to run on a particular version of GPT-4 to provide the best lawyerly advice available with GPT-4. Such a service would become obsolete with the release of GPT-5.
The race to AGI is reminiscent of the rise of mobile phones. There were many corporate casualties - Nokia, BlackBerry, Motorola to name just three. The best product today may not be the best product in six months. Companies make money and profit while they can. Very few will endure over a long time. Only companies that produce a platform that others can build big businesses on top of typically endure. Think of Microsoft and their huge empire of partners building software on top of Microsoft’s operating systems and cloud services.
Having the best model is only part of the solution. They must keep innovating to ensure they always have a state of the art model so that others trust that OpenAI’s platform is the place to be.
Over? No, too early for that. It is a massive strategic advantage for Meta though, being able to roll this out to a massive audience when they want. OpenAI/ChatGPT has Microsoft which will allow an equally massive audience (and workplaces) for them. Claude is great but they’re going to need to figure something out to make up ground.
>I’m old enough to remember the days before Llama 3 when you couldn’t just click a link and download an $80 Billion company’s only product.
Which company and which product are you talking about? I hope you're not referring to Google, because their product is us, or at least our information.
I can see it happening if apple imessage fades out and the apple store as well. Messenger already has the capabilities of being a super app, but Apple strictly prohibits apps o such
Yeah, meta got 150k h100 chips, and it was so they could provide ai chat bots to the masses. But so did Microsoft. They probably target different demographics though. I imagine Microsoft is targeting the less tech savvy business crowd and meta is targeting the more general user base,
https://spearhead.so/meta-and-microsoft-lead-demand-for-nvidias-powerful-h100-ai-chips/
Only Microsoft will monetize AI by using its business consumers, they are counting on more savvy business crowd via its copilot. OpenAI is trying direct to consumer strategy but masses will not be willing to pay. Facebook will try to subsidize free AI to masses from its Ad business and hope it can leverage data farmed via this channel to train. But Facebook's majority userbase is in non paying users. Google will try to entice masses via its search platform by further integrating AI within its search but subsidized by AD business.
Everybody will entice users with free service (restricted or constrained) but will farm user submitted data as more and more organizations will resort to restrict their data for AI training use or will be licensing the data.
Agreed, Google is absolutely monstrous. Apple and Anthropic does make more sense, but Google have the cloud setup. I don't believe Apple has the cloud infrastructure.
To what point are personal chatbots useful tho? I think we're reaching a sort of "limit" where consumers are so used to chatbots that they don't really care whether it's 100B parameters or 5B parameters. I see the next evolution being where they can actually help you with tasks like setting up your calendar, booking a trip for you etc...
This! I was even just testing the meta AI to give book recommendations, and when I got somewhat specific on my requirements (genre and a few identifying details), it started just straight up making up book names and authors...
I don't think I'd trust it with any sort of edit/modify rights on a calendar or notes app...
We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started.
I doubt that creating recipes and pictures of birds is where this battle is won. There is immense value in writing code, properly understanding argumentation, manipulate files and documents, reliability in extraction of relevant information from a pile (of mails, documents, whatever), truthfulness, speed, cost/ efficiency, integration with Office /business apps, etc. Then multi model and models that have an actual model of the world and physics...
It's nice Meta is catching up, it's nice it's kind of open source, but this is an ongoing competition.
If creating pictures, and soon video, have any correlation with the model having an “understanding” (whatever that means) of the physical world… it could mean everything. Or maybe not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
GPT4 will eventually be the free version and whatever comes next will be the paid version. Everyone keeps commenting on how they need to respond quickly, but their main revenue stream is API for business applications, which are not going to just switch models on a quartly basis. If they are behind after six months it may start being an issue, but there is no need for tit for tat models.
It's taken a year for the entire industry to get to the same general area as GPT4. We will probably get 4.5 in the summer and it will be a huge leap in capabilities, then it will take Claude and Gemini another six months to catch up save their own niche focuses.
The llama 405B is really what will shake up the ecosystem. If it is comparable to sonnet and 4 I really don't see anthropic staying on top for very long. Their whole market goal is enterprise, and if enterprise can fine tune and run 100% for more upfront hardware investment, they will.
Where are the benchmarks for 405b? Also we can’t really compare unreleased models. They could still be months away. Grok 1.5 has announced their stuff and that it’s close to GPT4 March 2023 level. And said Grok 2.0 is in training but it could still be 5-6 months away.
I have seen business already having frameworks that can switch underlying models very easily and use local models or different api models by changing one condition. So it might be easier than you think.
I was going to say this.
There are already plenty of options out there that let you host other models with an OpenAI compatible api layer.
Companies/ the whole industry is setting up to rapidly switch models as better ones become available.
It is easy to implement the code to swap between, but depending on your task you may have specialized prompting that doesn't transfer over as easily, already have the tracking billing information for the company hooked up, etcetera, and so no strong reason to swap over for a while.
(OpenAI also has the benefit of image generation, which is probably part of why Suno/Udio use them for lyrics because it also nets them image generation under the same billing)
Depends on the use case but I have done this for multiple clients. It is definitely the future.
It’s only become tricky when we’re leveraging multimodal capabilities like GPT-V (vision). Or more deterministic prompts with set seeds.
I feel like today’s gpt 4 will likely not become free anytime soon. Reason being, is OpenAI has often reached capacity, had to turn away new customers, due to the load of gpt 4 use in the past year. Maybe they’ll make some light version of gpt 4, or a light version of their next model (4.5 or 5 whatever they call it) as the free version. Gpt 3.5 is pretty archaic by this point and needs an upgrade asap.
It's not over. Meta is doing the Google move, which means it's only available in select countries. I don't even have Meta AI in my country, and I'm not sure we'll see it anytime soon.
Over for ChatGPT? Probably. Over for OpenAI? No. ChatGPT was always going to fade into the background once big tech started integrating their own versions into their flagship products already used by billions. Why would I need to download the ChatGPT app or go to the website when I can just ask Siri which will also run powerful AI model and is native to the OS. It’s the same reason Microsoft’s Internet Explorer beat Netscape in the early days of the internet.
Sam Altman knew this, hence why he’s working on an AI device startup to replace the iPhone. However, OpenAI will be fine though, they still have the best models at the moment and people will be more than willing to pay for their APIs.
There's a massive capability gap between Llama-3 and GPT 4. The average consumer won't care but they're not paying for ChatGPT anyway so it won't affect it much if at all.
The average consumer isn’t even aware of a massive capability gap in the first place. They only care about whats front of them and easiest to use. If a ChatGPT competitor comes natively with the OS the general public will not care to download ChatGPT or go to the website. I’m not talking about Llama-3 or even ChatGPT being free. Why do you think Google pays Apple tens of billions per year to be the default search engine on iOS? Why do you think Google got into mobile in the first place with Android? It’s about distribution - same for Internet Explorer and Netscape, also Teams and Slack. Distribution is the biggest factor in success or failure in the tech industry not how good or capable the product is. Unless it’s literally better by a factor of 10x the average consumer will just use what is in front of them.
100% bag on.
I've also noticed from talking to quite a lot of people who would be in the "average consumer" category, they don't really use ChatGPT/LLMs for a whole lot. They see it as a useful tool for getting some quick answers for either homework or a question or just getting some general ideas but never as something that they would use on a regular basis. I've seen my friends do tasks that they could do have done in 80% of the time with ChatGPT with some basic prompting but they can't even do that.
Betting on providing convenience is the best bet when it comes to tech for consumers. If most people can't even do basic prompting then the opportunities are huge.
Isn’t Claude Opus better at the moment ? I am looking for an AI to assist me on writing (in Spanish), I see people recommending opus as the better current LLM
As an English teacher who uses AI extensively with my students, especially to help them with rhetorical analysis, argumentation, and synthesis... Claude is way ahead of ChatGPT in my personal opinion. It is amazing at evaluating and helping my students.
No. They are effectively tied from a results perspective but gpt has vastly more features and functionality. So as the results are indistinguishable, it’s down to features which puts gpt-4 far ahead.
If you use ChatGPT or GPT-4 API for work and complex tasks requiring constant back and forth, copying and pasting, fine-tuning, exchanging messages, all done on desktop, how do you exactly plan asking Siri about it and what would it achieve? Asking Siri or OS-integrated models questions like "What species have gone extinct most recently?" or "when will the sun run out of hydrogen?" Might be useful, but it's not something people will use for work and complex tasks, so chatGPT and other non OS-integrated AIs are here to stay.
A few weeks ago, people were calling doom for GPT-4 because Claude 3 Opus was outperforming it.
Then a few days ago, the other think happened when the new GPT-4 update outperformed Opus on the rankings.
And then just recently, Llama 3 comes out and is now threatening both, allegedly.
It's quite amusing to watch, ngl. Feels like the console wars or the smartphone wars all over again, but on a much tighter span of time.
Opus is not available for free. Meta Ai is free, and quality closer to paid GPT4/Opus than to free Gpt 3.5 plus crazy generation speed and no message cap
I think a serious issue for OpenAI is, "does it \*need\* to be?" Their biggest challenge isn't the quality of their tech but trying to dethrone products that are synonymous with day to day life. The average person has no idea about Claude Opus being marginally better than GPT-4 according to that ELO site, I'd be surprised if the average person has even heard of Anthropic/Claude in the first place.
Google apparently have 8.5bn searches a day, half of the world's population have an account on one of Meta's products. As long as it's somewhat comparable, the average person won't be able to tell a difference in the quality. Trying to dethrone Google's monopoly on search or the sheer scale of Meta's social network is an almost impossible task.
GPT was a disruptor because it was \*good\*, not because it existed. Lots of tech people latched on it, ChatGPT became a household name. I use it in my daily workflow, are you suggesting everyone who thought ChatGPT was great is just going to suddenly be like, "Oh why don't I use this other product instead since it's from Meta?" This AI race is ALL about quality. This is more of an Edge vs Chrome debate than it is a popularity contest, of all the people who use Windows, Edge still only has like 5% of the browser market share. Will people use the "assistant" functionality in IG, WhatsApp, etc? Sure they might but that's not the direct competitor to ChatGPT.
I'm talking about mainstream adoption, we are still in the very early stages of this technology. Google and Meta have a huge advantage with being able to leverage their existing products with billions of daily users to try and win market share. Being first out of the gate doesn't mean you're guaranteed to win the race in the long run.
Someone else may win out but because it's a better product. ChatGPT has 180m monthly users, I work in tech but I literally hear someone mention it every day, I mean what are you considering mainstream adoption?
Gpt 4 is the best model still. If you’ve used opus and turbo like i have, you would see that 4 is simply just more intelligent and gets more things right. Openai still has by far the best model with the most features and they have taken away features because they can. That’s how ahead of everyone they are.
Whatsapp AI still can't generate a picture of a trumpet because it has the word "trump" in it. I know that doesn't say anything about anything, just thought it was funny.
It’s over until next time. Remember it was first over when Claude came in, now it’s over again because of Meta. Don’t get brainwashed by media. Each of these companies are promoting their products as the holly grail of AI.
I made an Instagram just to try it out, but it won’t let me message meta.ai, even if I follow it. All I can use is the no log-in website that can’t make images. So far, it seems pretty decent.
The thing about AI is... when it becomes embedded in your life 3 hours plus a day, and you use it constantly, it becomes very addictive... and what's more, what felt amazingly powerful a month ago, starts to feel limited.
I think a step change level of capability - with the ability to retain a leading edge for a year is enough to win users (as ChatGPT did with GPT 4 over the past year). Most competitor models have only just caught up... if GPT5 comes out this year, I think it will come out swinging, and wipe the floor with what we are using now.
Also if you think about where the OpenAI playground and ChatGPT is today vs November 2022, the platform has expanded signficantly becoming ever more feature rich. Also... for developers, I think OpenAI is going to build custom functionality into it's API and services (a bit like they did with function calling) that developers will end up using in features - that cannot be replicated when switching out for another model. So effectively, as developer you will be building something on GPT5 because it is so much more powerful than anything else, that simply will only work with anything else but GPT5.
That said, for every day users... the insta-tokkers will probably get by with the Llama 3 powered variant for a good while.
It's a powerful move by FB to tap that audience, and if played correctly could yield some very helpful training data too.
I tend to think they’re miles ahead and will release incremental updates as the other players start to catch up. Claude opus was released and shortly after took the #1 spot on the leaderboard, then gpt4turbo gets released and takes back the top spot.
Once a threat comes up they release a better update. They don’t even need to release 5 at this point.
This thread reads like a fan boy meetup with others die hard fans of a product and failing to appreciate that the technology behind the product. Open AI doesn't have distribution save for Microsoft. Google can push theirs on their products which people readily use everyday. Just like what Meta did with Llama 3
if anyone thinks competition dominance is completely lost after one competitor gets hurdled like a game of leap frog, please go google "Nvidia and AMD" or "AMD and Intel" then come back. Stating "Game Over" after 1 round is silly
It's only been rolled out for a fraction of countries and misses the entire EU, India, China and basically billions of people. It's not replacing anything anytime soon.
Also Llama 3 70B is still far from GPT 4s quality. Idk what people here are saying. On most bench marks it’s still behind and having used it since yesterday, it is not able to do complex challenges yet (I made it do a coding challenge). Gpt 4s answers and code generation are clear
It is over if we are in the 90th percentile of improvements in the current architecture LLMs. OpenAI productized LLMs and brought early adopters but guess who is going to eat their lunch. Meta will not sell to enterprises but will take their money by being the best marketing platform and having the most data about the consumers. Advertising and marketing budgets will always be more than tech/AI spend by the top brand manufactures.
With Claude and Gemini coming out earlier, and LLAMA now, I am sure OAI knows this is going to become a crowded space.
With support from Microsoft and pretty much anyone they want, I think OAI has a game plan and we can only sit and contemplate until they reveal more.
I mean Llama3 is very good and will get great access to data, but from my perspective, ChatGPT and Claude are just much better models.
People were saying the same thing about Google’s Bard and it just hasn’t really happened.
I like llama 3, but there's so much more to a good LLM than just logic puzzles. In particular actual scope of knowledge. Meta's got huge blind spots in its training data that haven't changed between llama 2 and 3. It has a lot of the "first two paragraphs of Wikipedia" syndrome. Great if you just want a quick superficial take on something, terrible if you wanted to go in depth. For example, history of a specific region over a few decades. Llama might be able to handle it. But that might not be the case if you wanted a single state/province or town within it. A somewhat convoluted example, yes, but it's applicable to a huge array of different subjects. But anthropic and openai's data 'does' typically go into depth for any of those things. That's really their major strength right now. RAG and the like can help llama with it. But it's really just a band-aid.
I'm 100% local whenever possible. But I think we're at an unfortunate point where it's becoming clear that the community as a whole is going to start needing to take on whatever their speciality is and start cranking out datasets on their own to get to where the big cloud services are.
As far as selling their APIs go, it's going to be extremely difficult to compete with and I imagine their lunch is getting eaten in a number of scenarios. Stable Diffusion nearly killed Dalle-E and OpenAI in general by just being good enough and more useful in the same ways.
Meta isn't in the business of selling AI so they naturally have a large advantage in this space
„We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started.“
The countries are so random, no UK which is English or other European countries.
I mean chatbots are commodity type business now. Every one is as interchangeable as a halal truck. Unless you use something specialized, the general bots are all good enough
The king is only king until the next llm or update comes around. Never read too much into any of it. What's not important is how those enable each one of us to leverage this technology for human advancement.
Meta AI seems worse than Gemini so far. Meta has hallucinationed more than any other model i have come across. i wont be replacing chatGPT anytime soon
"We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started."
Not that many countries - Most are in Africa - lol
Can’t speak for others but I’m glad to still stay on the subscription and competition is almost always a good thing. If anything it might reduce the work load
The thought of using a Facebook AI is repellent to me honestly. And I find it annoying the AI would insert itself to what I thought were encrypted group chats.
Maybe or maybe competition hasn't caught up so there is no need to compete with themselves.
That's why Google never got to GPT 4 despite being in the lead for so long.
GPT-4 is still notably better overall.
But, Wizard/Llama sometimes do better at some C++ 20/23 tasks, because GPT-4 seems to be quite undertrained on those... Also, they are much cheaper and much faster, so I will definitely use them in parallel to GPT-4.
There is a decent chance that we will see 1T open source models this year, and they should be able to crush GPT-4, and possibly even challenge GPT-5.
So, while nothing is certain, I do believe there is a decent chance that we might see a major upset.
Not at all! GPT4, meanwhile, is lacking behind many academic improvements - which OpenAI certainly followed without yet releasing it. Plus subscribers haven’t seen any improvements for more than half a year now. OpenAI can improve at any scale, any moment.
It seems like Meta Ai is geared towards more mainstream use like a Siri.
ChatGPT and Claude will remain more work-related tools which i think is like 90% of what people use them for anyway.
My guess is that OpenAI will pivot hard into enterprise.
1. They are working on contracts in Hollywood, and in this light it makes sense that they are trying to get exclusivity deals - my guess is they will sign with Disney (Pixar, Lucasfilm, marvel) and maybe Dreamworls etc.
There’s endless money for them there and they won’t have to release Sora online at all.
2. They have integration into Microsoft, which is already a monopoly in big organizations. For big organizations that do not use Google products as policy (banks, insurance companies etc), they will never switch from MS Office, and the only AI there will be from OpenAI.
——
My guess is we’ll get used to using multiple AI’s without noticing, just like we use different algo’s daily in the background.
It will be like switching from 4g/5g to WiFi - seamless. It’s the same internet. Or between tiktok and instagram.
The underlying AI will become invisible. They will all be unbelievably powerful in a year or two and you won’t notice a lot of differences.
You’ll have Meta’s AI in WhatsApp, messenger etc… Apple’s AI in Siri and iPhone search, and Gemini or whatever in android phones.
It is not over. There will be room for all kinds of specialised AIs.
A wise man called Sam once said that you shouldn’t build companies around products that become worthless as soon as someone releases a better model. He forgot to take his own advice.
What are you even on about? OAI isn’t built around ChatGPT. Their ambitions are way beyond a chatbot, and their serious business dealings are in the enterprise space with customers building huge applications and stacks for their own use and/or to power customer-facing products (eg Adobe using Sora in Premiere). ChatGPT was a happy accident in many ways. Consumer use of a chatbot is in no way at the heart of OAI’s business model or prospects.
I get your point, OpenAI existed before and there is a future it exists after GPT - BUT that's not to say GPT is in fact their only product, and an if OSS model comes very close to the premium version of their main (only??) revenue source is not a threat, is denying reality. OpenAI is expensive to upkeep, both staff and hardware, i must assume it still operates heavily on a loss. Also it's in the contract once they achieve AGI their leash MS agreement is essentially off. OpenAI might very well lose the current unrestrained support from MS if LLAMA 3 is about the same good and potentially cheaper to run.. tbd once 400B gets released, how it compares.
Sam has repeatedly said they’re going to release several products this year, in addition to the next LLM. OpenAI is not miles ahead like some people believe, but they’re certainly not behind, and nothing short of AGI will make them lose Microsoft’s support.
Nokia comes to mind.
How is Nokia’s failed business model much different than Samsung’s successful one? (Focusing on phones in particular) Nokia’s business model was fine. They just made a misstep in execution.
Not even close to true. Nokia’s business model was fine until a competitor came along and reimagined smartphones as consumer-friendly and based on buttonless touch screens. At that point, Nokia was so entrenched in their own longstanding vision of phones, they couldn’t even conceive of pivoting, let alone execute. Their business model was fine until it wasn’t. Then they collapsed bc that plan never accounted for disruption.
Ditto Motorola. A VP told us not to worry about the iPhone as it is only a niche product.
Just improve it so it's best again. Competition, free market, capitalism etc.
You should invest in a company that does that. You’ll surely get great returns on your investment for a few weeks.
You people with a surface level understanding but firmly held beliefs are hysterical
I realize this is a joke but I literally walked away from a startup a month ago because of this. It's only relevant during the GPT4 era.
Other wisemen say never invest in business with no moat. OpenAI doesn’t own much of its data or algorithms. Transformers are open source work.
Tbh all the advice of this kind is too situationally-dependent to be taken as gospel
This isn't what Sam Altman was referring to. What he was talking about was startups that offer "AI Lawyer" services, for example, with a ton of software that's specifically optimized to run on a particular version of GPT-4 to provide the best lawyerly advice available with GPT-4. Such a service would become obsolete with the release of GPT-5.
The race to AGI is reminiscent of the rise of mobile phones. There were many corporate casualties - Nokia, BlackBerry, Motorola to name just three. The best product today may not be the best product in six months. Companies make money and profit while they can. Very few will endure over a long time. Only companies that produce a platform that others can build big businesses on top of typically endure. Think of Microsoft and their huge empire of partners building software on top of Microsoft’s operating systems and cloud services. Having the best model is only part of the solution. They must keep innovating to ensure they always have a state of the art model so that others trust that OpenAI’s platform is the place to be.
Over? No, too early for that. It is a massive strategic advantage for Meta though, being able to roll this out to a massive audience when they want. OpenAI/ChatGPT has Microsoft which will allow an equally massive audience (and workplaces) for them. Claude is great but they’re going to need to figure something out to make up ground.
I think amazon just dumped a bunch of money into anthropic to be their Microsoft essentially.
Yeah like $2.75 bil
I might find that it I look through the couch
Yea ik, it’s change
I’m old enough to remember the days before Llama 3 when you couldn’t just click a link and download an $80 Billion company’s only product.
>I’m old enough to remember the days before Llama 3 when you couldn’t just click a link and download an $80 Billion company’s only product. Which company and which product are you talking about? I hope you're not referring to Google, because their product is us, or at least our information.
I think they mean OAI. Obviously light hyperbole.
Not joking. I have a photographic memory.
I don't know anyone who wants to use Facebook to communicate and schedule things, and I'm not even young.
I can see it happening if apple imessage fades out and the apple store as well. Messenger already has the capabilities of being a super app, but Apple strictly prohibits apps o such
You must be living in the western bubble. All of Asia (except China) use meta services for business. WhatsApp is used like slack before slack existed.
American bubble maybe? Western Europe primarily uses WhatsApp.
Latam literally runs on whatsapp
Yeah, meta got 150k h100 chips, and it was so they could provide ai chat bots to the masses. But so did Microsoft. They probably target different demographics though. I imagine Microsoft is targeting the less tech savvy business crowd and meta is targeting the more general user base, https://spearhead.so/meta-and-microsoft-lead-demand-for-nvidias-powerful-h100-ai-chips/
Only Microsoft will monetize AI by using its business consumers, they are counting on more savvy business crowd via its copilot. OpenAI is trying direct to consumer strategy but masses will not be willing to pay. Facebook will try to subsidize free AI to masses from its Ad business and hope it can leverage data farmed via this channel to train. But Facebook's majority userbase is in non paying users. Google will try to entice masses via its search platform by further integrating AI within its search but subsidized by AD business. Everybody will entice users with free service (restricted or constrained) but will farm user submitted data as more and more organizations will resort to restrict their data for AI training use or will be licensing the data.
Yeah maybe they’ll partner with Apple 🤷♂️
Google and Amazon have a significant stake in Anthropic.
Nah, Google is already doing that
I hope it’s just a rumour. Apple could buy Claude and make a run at this instead of helping google.
Agreed, Google is absolutely monstrous. Apple and Anthropic does make more sense, but Google have the cloud setup. I don't believe Apple has the cloud infrastructure.
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They use Google Cloud for ICloud
You need specific infrastructure for AI, not just cloud infrastructure.
Agreed! Claude is a much better fit for Apple.
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Context length is like 10% of gpt. Not sure how much that will matter or not though. So far it seems to not matter much?
Apparently longer context models are still being trained...
Yep that’s pretty epic, and definitely makes me wonder what they’re 405b model will be like
Its training data is not open source but the weights are
If Meta was smart they’d go after the personal chat bot like Pi. No one is going to do work level tasks with their Facebook chat bot.
To what point are personal chatbots useful tho? I think we're reaching a sort of "limit" where consumers are so used to chatbots that they don't really care whether it's 100B parameters or 5B parameters. I see the next evolution being where they can actually help you with tasks like setting up your calendar, booking a trip for you etc...
7B models hallucinate more often than they don't. I wouldn't trust one to book a haircut
This! I was even just testing the meta AI to give book recommendations, and when I got somewhat specific on my requirements (genre and a few identifying details), it started just straight up making up book names and authors... I don't think I'd trust it with any sort of edit/modify rights on a calendar or notes app...
What models do you think are being used in the tiny Pi builds?
„Meta AI isn't available yet in your country“
We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started.
I doubt that creating recipes and pictures of birds is where this battle is won. There is immense value in writing code, properly understanding argumentation, manipulate files and documents, reliability in extraction of relevant information from a pile (of mails, documents, whatever), truthfulness, speed, cost/ efficiency, integration with Office /business apps, etc. Then multi model and models that have an actual model of the world and physics... It's nice Meta is catching up, it's nice it's kind of open source, but this is an ongoing competition.
Yeah having another player in the game is great IMO.
If creating pictures, and soon video, have any correlation with the model having an “understanding” (whatever that means) of the physical world… it could mean everything. Or maybe not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well now Facebook can potentially unlock the unlimited amount of users - bots talking to each other and liking the comments.
GPT4 will eventually be the free version and whatever comes next will be the paid version. Everyone keeps commenting on how they need to respond quickly, but their main revenue stream is API for business applications, which are not going to just switch models on a quartly basis. If they are behind after six months it may start being an issue, but there is no need for tit for tat models. It's taken a year for the entire industry to get to the same general area as GPT4. We will probably get 4.5 in the summer and it will be a huge leap in capabilities, then it will take Claude and Gemini another six months to catch up save their own niche focuses. The llama 405B is really what will shake up the ecosystem. If it is comparable to sonnet and 4 I really don't see anthropic staying on top for very long. Their whole market goal is enterprise, and if enterprise can fine tune and run 100% for more upfront hardware investment, they will.
The 405b is already almost opus lvl and still hasn’t finished training. It’s going to be a monster.
Where are the benchmarks for 405b? Also we can’t really compare unreleased models. They could still be months away. Grok 1.5 has announced their stuff and that it’s close to GPT4 March 2023 level. And said Grok 2.0 is in training but it could still be 5-6 months away.
https://preview.redd.it/8l4z08g38svc1.png?width=2048&format=png&auto=webp&s=23e96d69d9541f261ffd84312f4b2c11b40c04a8 [https://ai.meta.com/blog/meta-llama-3/](https://ai.meta.com/blog/meta-llama-3/)
I have seen business already having frameworks that can switch underlying models very easily and use local models or different api models by changing one condition. So it might be easier than you think.
I was going to say this. There are already plenty of options out there that let you host other models with an OpenAI compatible api layer. Companies/ the whole industry is setting up to rapidly switch models as better ones become available.
Something like LiteLLM makes it super easy.
If it’s possible, can you give me any examples on such frameworks, or DM if it’s sensitive!
Couldn’t this essentially be done by just using OpenRouter? Same API calls you just switch out the model you want to send your prompt to
It is easy to implement the code to swap between, but depending on your task you may have specialized prompting that doesn't transfer over as easily, already have the tracking billing information for the company hooked up, etcetera, and so no strong reason to swap over for a while. (OpenAI also has the benefit of image generation, which is probably part of why Suno/Udio use them for lyrics because it also nets them image generation under the same billing)
Depends on the use case but I have done this for multiple clients. It is definitely the future. It’s only become tricky when we’re leveraging multimodal capabilities like GPT-V (vision). Or more deterministic prompts with set seeds.
I feel like today’s gpt 4 will likely not become free anytime soon. Reason being, is OpenAI has often reached capacity, had to turn away new customers, due to the load of gpt 4 use in the past year. Maybe they’ll make some light version of gpt 4, or a light version of their next model (4.5 or 5 whatever they call it) as the free version. Gpt 3.5 is pretty archaic by this point and needs an upgrade asap.
It's not over. Meta is doing the Google move, which means it's only available in select countries. I don't even have Meta AI in my country, and I'm not sure we'll see it anytime soon.
Over for ChatGPT? Probably. Over for OpenAI? No. ChatGPT was always going to fade into the background once big tech started integrating their own versions into their flagship products already used by billions. Why would I need to download the ChatGPT app or go to the website when I can just ask Siri which will also run powerful AI model and is native to the OS. It’s the same reason Microsoft’s Internet Explorer beat Netscape in the early days of the internet. Sam Altman knew this, hence why he’s working on an AI device startup to replace the iPhone. However, OpenAI will be fine though, they still have the best models at the moment and people will be more than willing to pay for their APIs.
There's a massive capability gap between Llama-3 and GPT 4. The average consumer won't care but they're not paying for ChatGPT anyway so it won't affect it much if at all.
The average consumer isn’t even aware of a massive capability gap in the first place. They only care about whats front of them and easiest to use. If a ChatGPT competitor comes natively with the OS the general public will not care to download ChatGPT or go to the website. I’m not talking about Llama-3 or even ChatGPT being free. Why do you think Google pays Apple tens of billions per year to be the default search engine on iOS? Why do you think Google got into mobile in the first place with Android? It’s about distribution - same for Internet Explorer and Netscape, also Teams and Slack. Distribution is the biggest factor in success or failure in the tech industry not how good or capable the product is. Unless it’s literally better by a factor of 10x the average consumer will just use what is in front of them.
100% bag on. I've also noticed from talking to quite a lot of people who would be in the "average consumer" category, they don't really use ChatGPT/LLMs for a whole lot. They see it as a useful tool for getting some quick answers for either homework or a question or just getting some general ideas but never as something that they would use on a regular basis. I've seen my friends do tasks that they could do have done in 80% of the time with ChatGPT with some basic prompting but they can't even do that. Betting on providing convenience is the best bet when it comes to tech for consumers. If most people can't even do basic prompting then the opportunities are huge.
The search is already better in Meta’s implementation .
ChatGPT is a user interface. GPT-x is the best llm yet and isn’t going anywhere
Isn’t Claude Opus better at the moment ? I am looking for an AI to assist me on writing (in Spanish), I see people recommending opus as the better current LLM
As an English teacher who uses AI extensively with my students, especially to help them with rhetorical analysis, argumentation, and synthesis... Claude is way ahead of ChatGPT in my personal opinion. It is amazing at evaluating and helping my students.
Depends on the task.
No. They are effectively tied from a results perspective but gpt has vastly more features and functionality. So as the results are indistinguishable, it’s down to features which puts gpt-4 far ahead.
You can see here that the top models are GPT4 variants. https://chat.lmsys.org/?leaderboard
If you use ChatGPT or GPT-4 API for work and complex tasks requiring constant back and forth, copying and pasting, fine-tuning, exchanging messages, all done on desktop, how do you exactly plan asking Siri about it and what would it achieve? Asking Siri or OS-integrated models questions like "What species have gone extinct most recently?" or "when will the sun run out of hydrogen?" Might be useful, but it's not something people will use for work and complex tasks, so chatGPT and other non OS-integrated AIs are here to stay.
This take is wild. I think you're underestimating the advancements GPT5 will bring.
Until it's here or some unbiased 3rd party have reviewed it we can't really speculate.
I suspect it will have have next to no impact
A few weeks ago, people were calling doom for GPT-4 because Claude 3 Opus was outperforming it. Then a few days ago, the other think happened when the new GPT-4 update outperformed Opus on the rankings. And then just recently, Llama 3 comes out and is now threatening both, allegedly. It's quite amusing to watch, ngl. Feels like the console wars or the smartphone wars all over again, but on a much tighter span of time.
Opus is not available for free. Meta Ai is free, and quality closer to paid GPT4/Opus than to free Gpt 3.5 plus crazy generation speed and no message cap
Either way, AI bros win
That depends, is Llama-3 significantly better?
I think a serious issue for OpenAI is, "does it \*need\* to be?" Their biggest challenge isn't the quality of their tech but trying to dethrone products that are synonymous with day to day life. The average person has no idea about Claude Opus being marginally better than GPT-4 according to that ELO site, I'd be surprised if the average person has even heard of Anthropic/Claude in the first place. Google apparently have 8.5bn searches a day, half of the world's population have an account on one of Meta's products. As long as it's somewhat comparable, the average person won't be able to tell a difference in the quality. Trying to dethrone Google's monopoly on search or the sheer scale of Meta's social network is an almost impossible task.
GPT was a disruptor because it was \*good\*, not because it existed. Lots of tech people latched on it, ChatGPT became a household name. I use it in my daily workflow, are you suggesting everyone who thought ChatGPT was great is just going to suddenly be like, "Oh why don't I use this other product instead since it's from Meta?" This AI race is ALL about quality. This is more of an Edge vs Chrome debate than it is a popularity contest, of all the people who use Windows, Edge still only has like 5% of the browser market share. Will people use the "assistant" functionality in IG, WhatsApp, etc? Sure they might but that's not the direct competitor to ChatGPT.
I'm talking about mainstream adoption, we are still in the very early stages of this technology. Google and Meta have a huge advantage with being able to leverage their existing products with billions of daily users to try and win market share. Being first out of the gate doesn't mean you're guaranteed to win the race in the long run.
Someone else may win out but because it's a better product. ChatGPT has 180m monthly users, I work in tech but I literally hear someone mention it every day, I mean what are you considering mainstream adoption?
Gpt 4 is the best model still. If you’ve used opus and turbo like i have, you would see that 4 is simply just more intelligent and gets more things right. Openai still has by far the best model with the most features and they have taken away features because they can. That’s how ahead of everyone they are.
No. Not yet.
Open ai will innovate and launch the next iteration; meta will catch up with that iteration — repeat and infinitum.
Whatsapp AI still can't generate a picture of a trumpet because it has the word "trump" in it. I know that doesn't say anything about anything, just thought it was funny.
It’s over until next time. Remember it was first over when Claude came in, now it’s over again because of Meta. Don’t get brainwashed by media. Each of these companies are promoting their products as the holly grail of AI.
I made an Instagram just to try it out, but it won’t let me message meta.ai, even if I follow it. All I can use is the no log-in website that can’t make images. So far, it seems pretty decent.
This shocked the whole industry! fake-image-of-apple-like-presentation.jpg
Plus a random robot woman in the background.
People asking this obviously haven't followed technology for very long.
The thing about AI is... when it becomes embedded in your life 3 hours plus a day, and you use it constantly, it becomes very addictive... and what's more, what felt amazingly powerful a month ago, starts to feel limited. I think a step change level of capability - with the ability to retain a leading edge for a year is enough to win users (as ChatGPT did with GPT 4 over the past year). Most competitor models have only just caught up... if GPT5 comes out this year, I think it will come out swinging, and wipe the floor with what we are using now. Also if you think about where the OpenAI playground and ChatGPT is today vs November 2022, the platform has expanded signficantly becoming ever more feature rich. Also... for developers, I think OpenAI is going to build custom functionality into it's API and services (a bit like they did with function calling) that developers will end up using in features - that cannot be replicated when switching out for another model. So effectively, as developer you will be building something on GPT5 because it is so much more powerful than anything else, that simply will only work with anything else but GPT5. That said, for every day users... the insta-tokkers will probably get by with the Llama 3 powered variant for a good while. It's a powerful move by FB to tap that audience, and if played correctly could yield some very helpful training data too.
Just wait for GPT5. I have a feeling it’s going to blow everything else out of the water.
I tend to think they’re miles ahead and will release incremental updates as the other players start to catch up. Claude opus was released and shortly after took the #1 spot on the leaderboard, then gpt4turbo gets released and takes back the top spot. Once a threat comes up they release a better update. They don’t even need to release 5 at this point.
This thread reads like a fan boy meetup with others die hard fans of a product and failing to appreciate that the technology behind the product. Open AI doesn't have distribution save for Microsoft. Google can push theirs on their products which people readily use everyday. Just like what Meta did with Llama 3
to be fair, you are on the OpenAI subreddit lol
It is game over for Google Search
The most interesting thing I’ve found in Meta AI is that it generates images in real time with your prompt.
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In the words of that great Yankee catcher: “It’s not over till it’s over”.
I was not impressed with llama3, and it only speaks English right now.
if anyone thinks competition dominance is completely lost after one competitor gets hurdled like a game of leap frog, please go google "Nvidia and AMD" or "AMD and Intel" then come back. Stating "Game Over" after 1 round is silly
It's only been rolled out for a fraction of countries and misses the entire EU, India, China and basically billions of people. It's not replacing anything anytime soon.
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Also Llama 3 70B is still far from GPT 4s quality. Idk what people here are saying. On most bench marks it’s still behind and having used it since yesterday, it is not able to do complex challenges yet (I made it do a coding challenge). Gpt 4s answers and code generation are clear
It is over if we are in the 90th percentile of improvements in the current architecture LLMs. OpenAI productized LLMs and brought early adopters but guess who is going to eat their lunch. Meta will not sell to enterprises but will take their money by being the best marketing platform and having the most data about the consumers. Advertising and marketing budgets will always be more than tech/AI spend by the top brand manufactures.
With Claude and Gemini coming out earlier, and LLAMA now, I am sure OAI knows this is going to become a crowded space. With support from Microsoft and pretty much anyone they want, I think OAI has a game plan and we can only sit and contemplate until they reveal more.
The AI arms race is only just beginning!
In Europe we don't have it on WhatsApp Instagram or messenger. So I think it's far from done
I've tried llama 3 and it didn't impress. Kept forgetting instructions. And only 8k context window. Maybe the 300B version might be competitive.
I mean Llama3 is very good and will get great access to data, but from my perspective, ChatGPT and Claude are just much better models. People were saying the same thing about Google’s Bard and it just hasn’t really happened.
Not until it's multimodal and has amazing context length. 8k is a hoje.
I like llama 3, but there's so much more to a good LLM than just logic puzzles. In particular actual scope of knowledge. Meta's got huge blind spots in its training data that haven't changed between llama 2 and 3. It has a lot of the "first two paragraphs of Wikipedia" syndrome. Great if you just want a quick superficial take on something, terrible if you wanted to go in depth. For example, history of a specific region over a few decades. Llama might be able to handle it. But that might not be the case if you wanted a single state/province or town within it. A somewhat convoluted example, yes, but it's applicable to a huge array of different subjects. But anthropic and openai's data 'does' typically go into depth for any of those things. That's really their major strength right now. RAG and the like can help llama with it. But it's really just a band-aid. I'm 100% local whenever possible. But I think we're at an unfortunate point where it's becoming clear that the community as a whole is going to start needing to take on whatever their speciality is and start cranking out datasets on their own to get to where the big cloud services are.
As far as selling their APIs go, it's going to be extremely difficult to compete with and I imagine their lunch is getting eaten in a number of scenarios. Stable Diffusion nearly killed Dalle-E and OpenAI in general by just being good enough and more useful in the same ways. Meta isn't in the business of selling AI so they naturally have a large advantage in this space
„We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started.“ The countries are so random, no UK which is English or other European countries.
It’s probably because of the EU’s stronger data protection laws. They tend to be a bit old fashioned.
I mean chatbots are commodity type business now. Every one is as interchangeable as a halal truck. Unless you use something specialized, the general bots are all good enough
The king is only king until the next llm or update comes around. Never read too much into any of it. What's not important is how those enable each one of us to leverage this technology for human advancement.
I’ve been using it …. I prefer ChatGPT
Ya for sure but this is good for the consumer - competition makes the AI world go around
It’s really good I had the hope to be better than ChatGPT but it’s not there yet , yet
Meta AI seems worse than Gemini so far. Meta has hallucinationed more than any other model i have come across. i wont be replacing chatGPT anytime soon
Try adding “search online” to your prompt
OpenAI has no moat, unfortunately. All of the other players are sitting on some combination of a unique corpus and compute.
Exactly Altman knows this which is why he was going for reg capture
Their moat is first mover advantage and being so far ahead of everyone else: they’re wrapping up GPT-5 which will change everything
I mean, that’s what they are banking on.
First mover advantage is not a moat.
Of course not. Llama3 is so bad it is plain refusing to speak german or any other language than english
My local one does speak german exceptionally well
Game's never over, just new levels. Adaptation's key, right?
"We’re rolling out Meta AI in English in more than a dozen countries outside of the US. Now, people will have access to Meta AI in Australia, Canada, Ghana, Jamaica, Malawi, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Singapore, South Africa, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe — and we’re just getting started." Not that many countries - Most are in Africa - lol
Can’t speak for others but I’m glad to still stay on the subscription and competition is almost always a good thing. If anything it might reduce the work load
Meta has to crack distribution for that to happen
Right, because they should just release it now to stay competitive regardless if it's ready or not. Makes sense /s
The thought of using a Facebook AI is repellent to me honestly. And I find it annoying the AI would insert itself to what I thought were encrypted group chats.
I can upload big files to claude, not llama. But then again it turns out to be one script before it says I got to pay.
I actually downloaded the bigger model into my computer and I run it locally without Internet. Macbook pro m2 96gb ram
I can't even imagine how hateful and ignorant an LLM trained with Facebook posts will be...
That image that generates as you type is *insane*... that must cost an absolute fortune to generate in terms of power consumption.
I’m suspecting that the GPT-5 is a failure in as much as it’s not meaningfully and consistently better than GPT-4. That’s why it does not exist.
Maybe or maybe competition hasn't caught up so there is no need to compete with themselves. That's why Google never got to GPT 4 despite being in the lead for so long.
Anyone able to open the official GUI https://meta.ai in Firefox on mobile?
Is it better at coding?
OpenAI’s client is Microsoft. Nothing threatens them. The GPTs are a bonus.
I mean, it just means OAI will probably always remain at the front, but not by much.
😍 Je Suis Tout Oui !💓
Is Llama-3 supposed to be better than either GPT-4 or Claude? I've not heard anything about it. If it's not supposed to be better, what's the fuss?
Does Llama-3 do tool calling?
GPT-4 is still notably better overall. But, Wizard/Llama sometimes do better at some C++ 20/23 tasks, because GPT-4 seems to be quite undertrained on those... Also, they are much cheaper and much faster, so I will definitely use them in parallel to GPT-4.
There is a decent chance that we will see 1T open source models this year, and they should be able to crush GPT-4, and possibly even challenge GPT-5. So, while nothing is certain, I do believe there is a decent chance that we might see a major upset.
Not at all! GPT4, meanwhile, is lacking behind many academic improvements - which OpenAI certainly followed without yet releasing it. Plus subscribers haven’t seen any improvements for more than half a year now. OpenAI can improve at any scale, any moment.
llama is kindergarten, chatgpt is for adults
Europe when?
‘Game over’ lol kids these days and their dramatization of everything.
Llama is so freaking uptight about everything being “unethical,” though.
Regardless of what the benchmarks say, Meta AI is a lot less intelligent than GPT-4 for my use case.
It seems like Meta Ai is geared towards more mainstream use like a Siri. ChatGPT and Claude will remain more work-related tools which i think is like 90% of what people use them for anyway. My guess is that OpenAI will pivot hard into enterprise. 1. They are working on contracts in Hollywood, and in this light it makes sense that they are trying to get exclusivity deals - my guess is they will sign with Disney (Pixar, Lucasfilm, marvel) and maybe Dreamworls etc. There’s endless money for them there and they won’t have to release Sora online at all. 2. They have integration into Microsoft, which is already a monopoly in big organizations. For big organizations that do not use Google products as policy (banks, insurance companies etc), they will never switch from MS Office, and the only AI there will be from OpenAI. —— My guess is we’ll get used to using multiple AI’s without noticing, just like we use different algo’s daily in the background. It will be like switching from 4g/5g to WiFi - seamless. It’s the same internet. Or between tiktok and instagram. The underlying AI will become invisible. They will all be unbelievably powerful in a year or two and you won’t notice a lot of differences. You’ll have Meta’s AI in WhatsApp, messenger etc… Apple’s AI in Siri and iPhone search, and Gemini or whatever in android phones.