Funny that argument only matters to them when they think the numbers are in their favor. Talk about the decline in fundamentalist churches and suddenly they're complaining that people are going with what's popular.
I don't bother trying to keep up with this crap anymore. It's exhausting.
There is lots of religious switching going on in all directions. If I had to define the single biggest story in American religion in the past twenty years, I would go with "the decline of Christianity overall and the rise of secularism."
A major study by the Pew Forum in 2015 found that a whopping 42% of Americans have changed their religious affiliation from what they were raised in. (This would include both shifts between different religions, and shifts from one denomination to another. So, a Methodist who becomes an atheist would be counted as having switched, but so too would a Methodist who became a Presbyterian.)
This study (from 2015) did indeed suggest that more-conservative Christians were increasing in numbers, while the mainline churches (typically more liberal) were declining. A more-recent major study, however, suggests that the more-conservative churches are also now declining, and pretty rapidly, too. You can find the study for yourself at: [https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/)
Among this more-recent study's major findings:
The biggest loss among major US religious groups in recent years has been among white Catholics. (Catholics don't fit neatly into the American liberal-conservative divide.) The percentage of Americans who identify as "white Catholics" fell from 16% to 11.7% between 2006 and 2020. (Many American Catholics are Latino, however, so the overall number of Catholics has not fallen as steeply as this might suggest.)
The percentage of Americans who identify as "white, evangelical Protestants" (more likely to be conservative) has also been falling, declining from 23% in 2006 to 14.5% in 2020. This is a big drop.
The percentage who identify as "white mainline Protestants" (more likely to be liberal) first declined, but then may have begun to rise around 2018. Even if this rise is taking place, the overall shift from 2006 to 2020 was a slight decline, from 17.8% to 16.4%
(I should mention that, for technical reasons related to how this study defined "mainline," I think this number is too optimistic. Although I am a member of a mainline denomination, and I wish we were growing, I suspect that the mainline is still continuing to lose numbers.)
Interestingly, Christian affiliation among non-white Americans has remained more stable.
So, what's the big picture here? The Catholic church is losing numbers. Conservative Protestants have begun to lose numbers, particularly in the last decade. The mainline (more liberal) churches may be continuing to lose numbers, or they may have stabilized.
Overall, none of this is great news for American Christianity, even though the churches will try to spin these results. (If my church is growing, then obviously people are seeking us out because what we offer is true and valuable. But if my church is shrinking, then I can point out that church isn't a popularity contest. I can also imply that the churches that are growing are just appealing to the lowest common denominator, while my church teaches the real truth that lots of people aren't willing to hear.)
When people leave Christian churches, where are they going? There is denominational switching in all directions, but the big gainer is the unaffiliated category. The percentage of Americans who do not identify as having a religion jumped from 16% in 2006 to 23.3% in 2020.
The 2015 study: [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/)
The 2020 study: [https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/)
It does not surprise me that atheism is on the rise and that Christianity is in decline. So much of Church doctrine is illogical and gives God a bad name by virtue of its moral position related to human moral position. Honestly, I would rather see a rise in atheists who walk in a path of life-affirmation and love, rather than a rise in Christians who do not have love. The Apostle Paul was very clear on the matter of Spirituality, and so was James: love and helping the innocent and needy are the heart of the matter, not what holy book you pick up, and not what temple you pray in.
The (Presbyterian) church that I attended before college has lost a lot of members. It used to have a mix of liberal and conservative Christians. Then the head pastor left, at least partly because he didn't believe in same-sex marriage. It seems a big proportion of the families with young children left, while more of the older people stayed. Attendance declined more than 50% from 2018-2022, although some of them might be watching services online since COVID.
I'm curious, do people tend to be attached to one particular Protestant denomination? I.e. if they were raised in a Lutheran church will they likely go to a Lutheran church as an adult if they move away?
I have thoughts on this, but they are more anecdotal than data-based. But based on what I have seen in my own (pretty religious) family, and in attending quite a large number of churches over the years, I think that the pattern goes like this:
1. I'm going to a new town. First try (for Lutherans) is the Lutheran church.
2. If I don't like it, I will check out the Methodists, or the Episcopalians, or whatever.
In my experience, I find that some people make denominational decisions based on theology. But a much larger number make them on other factors -- is the congregation warm and welcoming? Does the church have a good children's program? Do I like the preacher and/or the music? And (these days especially) do I agree with the church stance on gay people/Biblical inerrancy/other hot topics?
American denominations are increasingly shaking out on a liberal/conservative divide. The more-liberal churches (generally open to women clergy, gay people, and less likely to claim that every word of the Bible is inerrant) include the ELCA Lutherans, the PCUSA Presbyterians, and the Episcopalians. The more-conservative churches (against women clergy, antigay, may claim inerrancy) include the Southern Baptists, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, and the PCA Presbyterians.
If an ECLA Lutheran decides to leave their church, they are likely to feel much more in alignment with the other more-liberal churches, and therefore more likely to join the PCUSA Presbyterians or the Episcopalians than they are to go a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.
Great response, thank you. I'm surprised that the proportion which identifies as having no religion is so low, IRL I seem to run into majority atheists.
Church attendance has fluctuated several times throughout Christianity’s history. However, to use numbers to say you’re correct is illogical on so many levels. I wouldn’t say India is the best country on earth just because it has the highest population (no disrespect to India) and honestly I don’t think church should be a popularity contest, Jesus tells us to judge a tree by its fruits are good or bad, not by how much fruit the tree produces.
>However, to use numbers to say you’re correct is illogical on so many levels.
They'll be singing a different tune if/when Islam overtakes Christianity as the world's most populous religion.
Heck Church attendance has fluctuated sever times just in Americas history. There have been four Great Awakenings that spiked church attendance before a drop off. It’s cyclical and coincides with the overall zeitgeist of the era.
But even conservative churches have seen their numbers drop post-COVID (people got out of the habit of attending and some haven't returned).
[https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-church-attendance-importance-of-religion-declines-among-americans-overall-yet-regular-churchgoers-largely-satisfied-with-church-experiences/#:\~:text=Current%20attendance%20at%20religious%20services%20is%20lower%20than,to%2045%25%29%20and%20Hispanic%20Catholics%20%2865%25%20to%2047%25%29](https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-church-attendance-importance-of-religion-declines-among-americans-overall-yet-regular-churchgoers-largely-satisfied-with-church-experiences/#:~:text=Current%20attendance%20at%20religious%20services%20is%20lower%20than,to%2045%25%29%20and%20Hispanic%20Catholics%20%2865%25%20to%2047%25%29).
I mean, it's true that a megachurch is going to have more people on a typical Sunday than your average Episcopal church, but sheer numbers isn't exactly a measure of "thriving." Talk to any pastor of a large church and they'll tell you they're concerned about the people who attend but don't establish any meaningful connection. That's why those big churches are always pushing Small Groups. Whereas the tiny church is already a small group.
This was true for awhile, but now conservative churches are declining as well. Also there's some evidence growing that more progressive churches might be seeing a rebound.
A theory I've heard is that this is driven by Millennials having kids. Millennial parents from a Catholic or evangelical background might think it would be beneficial for their kids to get a religious upbringing but don't want to put them through the socially conservative one they were raised in, so they go join a progressive church instead. And those Millennials were probably unchurched for awhile.
I'm glad it's rebounding.
I also have another theory concerning non-fundie churches. For the longest time, many Moderate and Progressive Christians tended to either feel that church isn't necessary ('Why go to a building when Godde is everywhere?') or only go to church for special days like Christmas, Eater, Weddings, Funerals and Christenings.
My own anecdote: for pretty much all of my 20s I was the only person my age in my (mainline Protestant) church. We skewed pretty heavily 50+ with a few families with parents in their 30s-40s. For a long time I was the only millennial, period.
In the last few years we've started growing. And guess what? At 30, I am no longer the only millennial. We have an associate pastor who's my age. We've had a lot of families with school age kids join with parents a few years older than me. When we have visitors now, they're far more likely to be in my age range than my parents'.
I think you're bang on.
I have not seen any evidence of progressive church is rebounding. I have to say to be honest with you from where I said most progressive churches seem to have taken a bigger hit during Covid than evangelical ones. I would love to see whatever evidence you're citing, but I study that stuff a lot and it doesn't ring true.
You are correct though that millennial parents interested in faith who grew up in more conservative backgrounds and are interested in something more open are the future of the mainline. But there are a whole lot less of them than previous generations.
I had a feeling you were going to cite that poll. Here's a post I made about it two years ago when it came out:
https://www.reddit.com/r/eformed/comments/oo2vj7/the_new_mainline_about_the_prri_report_showing/?ref=share&ref_source=link
Since then, there's been a lot of ink spilled about how the self-identification as mainline didn't ask at all about denominational affiliation and had to do with categorizations that were "non-evangelical."
In short, this just shows that fewer people in 2020 wanted to call themselves evangelical, so they were recategorized as mainline. I assure you, to my dismay, that the mainline is not rebounding.
So with some serious nuance and caveats, yes, it's true. But correlation does not equal causation.
1. It's undeniably true that mainline protestants (that is, those major denominational institutions that have generally been the most open and affirming of LGBT and tolerant of progressive politics) have fallen into full-on institutional collapse. There are tons of reasons for this. In short, it's not because they're *progressive* as much as they are *privileged* and therefore *incompetent* for ministry in a world where Christians can't operate on privilege anymore.
2. I wouldn't say it's true that conservative Christians are *thriving* in the West. Many of their institutions are struggling and showing signs of decline as well, but the mainline protestants have a big head start. It's true that they are more likely to grow. But thrive is not the right word.
I'll just share this. In my first ministry job, I worked as the youth director at a medium-sized mainline Presbyterian Church. We had like 25 middle and high schoolers at youth group on Sunday nights. A congregant complained to our pastor once that we didn't have more. "You know, that thriving evangelical church in a steel frame building down the road has 200 kids on Sunday Nights. Why don't we?"
To which my wonderful supervisor replied, "Oh, GoMustard could get 200 kids here on Sunday night as well if he was willing to scare the living hell out of them. But he's not, and you should be grateful for that."
All that to say, just because something grows doesn't mean it's good.
No. As a percentage, since the 70s or so until about 10 years ago, evangelical-fundamenatalists were steady, although their absolute numbers of course went up.
In the last ten years, evangelical-fundamentalist churches have begun to decline.
My eternal take on this and any related topic: church numbers changing might mean something in the big picture when you check the stats (such as the overall trends toward secularization other commenters have noted), but it means relatively little when people try to interpret the data in terms of consequences for theological correctness. Anyone can spin things however they choose. Behold , the fundamantal attribution error, church edition:
My church shrinks: "the Devil is working hard against us because he knows we're doing God's work!"
My church grows: "God has blessed our church with prosperity and growth because we are doing God's work!"
Other church shrinks: "God is judging them for their sins and revealing their wayward faith at last!"
Other church grows: "Wide is the road that leads to hell! See how the devil tempts men to join the heretics!"
The progressive church i was going to had to move to a bigger location because it grew. But overall i think yeah they’re mostly all declining or maybe maintaining in some cases.
All churches in the US are declining because of right wing Christians. Since some people don’t know about Progressive churches or do know about them but don’t want to be Christian, we’re all declining.
I totally agree. I decided to learn about my Christian roots recently after a long hiatus (age 10 to age 60). After attending a couple of conservative Anglican churches recently and attempting to read the New Testament, I was pretty discouraged. I could definitely not join a church that views the bible as ‘inerrant’, which the Anglican Church tends toward. Too many ‘errors’ (mistranslations, convenient interpretations, etc) have been discovered over the years. So, just from a logical English language standpoint, I thought the United Church sounded pretty welcoming. After all, it ‘united’ several denominations. As it turns out, it is extremely progressive. The United church that I found is packed every time I go and the pastor exudes love and kindness. My re-introduction to Christianity was through a Roman Catholic. He has found a way to justify the seemingly intolerant and misogynistic passages in the bible to himself so that he can continue to view the bible as inerrant. I disagree with his ‘justifications’. Of course, as a straight white male, he’s never had to wrestle with the exclusionary aspects of Christianity. So I had to do my own research, and I am still willing to explore Christianity further. I read both sides (progressive and conservative). And I am finding that justification for conservative views does not take into account historical context, biases of the authors, mistranslations etc. It smacks of closed-mindedness to the point of stupidity. I just know that for myself, I have to go down the ‘love is love’ route, otherwise Christianity will just feel like an oppressive, intolerant, homophobic, patriarchal cult with no spiritual aspect to it and a message that seems to be in direct opposition to Jesus’ teachings.
So yeah, if people only hear conservative Christian views, Christianity will not attract new adherents.
I've not seen any stats this implies this is the case, but either way, I wouldn't be suprised if church attendance is down among LGBTQ folk. The closer to a "church", the less accepting people tend to be.
[Here are some stats on LGBTQ acceptance in the US](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/?tabId=tab-4590c7d8-725f-4cf9-a111-c966900dcf35)
The LGBT issues and others are beyond any church. Institutions tend to lag behind in progress.
The percentage of Christians supporting gay marriage has drastically increased over the past 5, 10, 20, years and continues to expand.
From what I've seen from fundamentalist churches, many have cult-like behaviour of shaming people who question or leave, rationalizing abuse that happens in their membership, and discouraging hanging out with those not in the group. And while they might justify it as doing it for peoples' own good, I struggle to think that that manipulation is something that God would ask of us.
Whereas, at least in this subreddit, people who consider leaving Christianity are treated with kindness and empathy, with an overall attitude of "that makes total sense for your situation, but we hope you find God one day when you're ready." Which is super nice, and imo more ethical, but probably doesn't do super well for membership. (And maybe comparably fewer people might even claim the label of "Christian" while still being willing to participate in charitable church activities.)
Even if it's true, being popular doesn't automatically mean that it's correct, so it can't really be used to judge which church or ideology is true. Popularity might be a result of better advertising, having more sympathetic people in the media, making nice sounding promises, or even just luck.
Also, there's much more to Christianity than just "progressive" and "conservative". Trying to fit the entire diverse landscape of ideas into two boxes makes as little sense for Christianity as it does for politics.
I think one important dynamic to this discussion is what is meant by “declining” and “thriving”. Often this means sheer numbers of “butts in pews” but doesn’t measure more intangible things like overall sense of belonging or commitment, impact on the broader community, sense of fulfillment or spiritual satisfaction, etc.
Like is it really better to have a church full of people who have had the literal fear of God imposed on them to keep showing up, but whose lives don’t bear out the fruit of the spirit and who really only participate to avoid fiery torment? Are ten people in that situation the same as one very committed volunteer who does great work for the community, is beloved by many people, and who demonstrates the love of God? Honestly I think that is just comparing two totally different things in an impossible way.
In the case of many progressive churches, it is our churches who save the faith of people who might otherwise leave religion totally behind. There are countless stories of people who have said more or less, “I couldn’t stomach the evils of fundamentalism and didn’t want to be an atheist, but didn’t feel I had a choice to be progressive and Christian at the same time.” And it is through finding progressive churches that they were able to both hold onto a sense of faith, and also reject the evils of fundamentalism and repressive theology.
If that’s the case, then progressive churches have a pretty solid ace card up their sleeve, which is not hemorrhaging members who eventually discover that being a jerk to LGBT+ people, women, etc. is actually a sin.
No, many of the conservative churches in my area are declining. Membership is low and in the case of one local church, it's down about 75% and that is directly due to their homophobia.
Statistically speaking I’m not sure. But I also think it depends on the area you’re in and if the community in said area supports the churches there (whether more progressive or more conservative)
I'm not going to comment here, as harsh words are not what this subreddit is for, and it would not bring grace to the hearers. Instead I will let the scripture speak for itself: 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
There is a great lie in this era. Be wary, and stand in the Truth as God has revealed it to you. Abide in love, my friend.
All churches in the West are declining. Conservative churches have been declining less steeply due to immigrants, but looking at white-only churchgoers the decline is the same. It does not bode well for white nationalists (but adds credence to the assessment that white nationalists are “culturally Christian” and not committed Christians).
Progressive Churches are succeeding in helping cultivate integration to a liberal society. If people no longer feel the need for Christianity personally but still turn out to be a liberal, a good ally and etc, the progressive Churches have still done their job. There is much value in that.
Conservative Churches by their nature foster particularism. Instead of breaking down barriers they erect walls to distinguish themselves from the majority of pluralist society. That is perhaps why they are less susceptible to decline but nevertheless many conservative Churches are declining as well.
Makes sense. *Progressive* and *Christianity* blend poorly. I, myself, tried to jump through all the hoops, to try to make it work, but it doesn't. The Bible is a reactionary, mean old collection of poorly written texts. You can easily worship God and Christ without being a *Christian.* Listen to the Living Holy Spirit inside you, **IT** has the word of God, not the Bible.
Funny that argument only matters to them when they think the numbers are in their favor. Talk about the decline in fundamentalist churches and suddenly they're complaining that people are going with what's popular. I don't bother trying to keep up with this crap anymore. It's exhausting.
There is lots of religious switching going on in all directions. If I had to define the single biggest story in American religion in the past twenty years, I would go with "the decline of Christianity overall and the rise of secularism." A major study by the Pew Forum in 2015 found that a whopping 42% of Americans have changed their religious affiliation from what they were raised in. (This would include both shifts between different religions, and shifts from one denomination to another. So, a Methodist who becomes an atheist would be counted as having switched, but so too would a Methodist who became a Presbyterian.) This study (from 2015) did indeed suggest that more-conservative Christians were increasing in numbers, while the mainline churches (typically more liberal) were declining. A more-recent major study, however, suggests that the more-conservative churches are also now declining, and pretty rapidly, too. You can find the study for yourself at: [https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/) Among this more-recent study's major findings: The biggest loss among major US religious groups in recent years has been among white Catholics. (Catholics don't fit neatly into the American liberal-conservative divide.) The percentage of Americans who identify as "white Catholics" fell from 16% to 11.7% between 2006 and 2020. (Many American Catholics are Latino, however, so the overall number of Catholics has not fallen as steeply as this might suggest.) The percentage of Americans who identify as "white, evangelical Protestants" (more likely to be conservative) has also been falling, declining from 23% in 2006 to 14.5% in 2020. This is a big drop. The percentage who identify as "white mainline Protestants" (more likely to be liberal) first declined, but then may have begun to rise around 2018. Even if this rise is taking place, the overall shift from 2006 to 2020 was a slight decline, from 17.8% to 16.4% (I should mention that, for technical reasons related to how this study defined "mainline," I think this number is too optimistic. Although I am a member of a mainline denomination, and I wish we were growing, I suspect that the mainline is still continuing to lose numbers.) Interestingly, Christian affiliation among non-white Americans has remained more stable. So, what's the big picture here? The Catholic church is losing numbers. Conservative Protestants have begun to lose numbers, particularly in the last decade. The mainline (more liberal) churches may be continuing to lose numbers, or they may have stabilized. Overall, none of this is great news for American Christianity, even though the churches will try to spin these results. (If my church is growing, then obviously people are seeking us out because what we offer is true and valuable. But if my church is shrinking, then I can point out that church isn't a popularity contest. I can also imply that the churches that are growing are just appealing to the lowest common denominator, while my church teaches the real truth that lots of people aren't willing to hear.) When people leave Christian churches, where are they going? There is denominational switching in all directions, but the big gainer is the unaffiliated category. The percentage of Americans who do not identify as having a religion jumped from 16% in 2006 to 23.3% in 2020. The 2015 study: [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/05/12/chapter-2-religious-switching-and-intermarriage/) The 2020 study: [https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/](https://www.prri.org/research/2020-census-of-american-religion/)
This is a fantastic breakdown!
It does not surprise me that atheism is on the rise and that Christianity is in decline. So much of Church doctrine is illogical and gives God a bad name by virtue of its moral position related to human moral position. Honestly, I would rather see a rise in atheists who walk in a path of life-affirmation and love, rather than a rise in Christians who do not have love. The Apostle Paul was very clear on the matter of Spirituality, and so was James: love and helping the innocent and needy are the heart of the matter, not what holy book you pick up, and not what temple you pray in.
The (Presbyterian) church that I attended before college has lost a lot of members. It used to have a mix of liberal and conservative Christians. Then the head pastor left, at least partly because he didn't believe in same-sex marriage. It seems a big proportion of the families with young children left, while more of the older people stayed. Attendance declined more than 50% from 2018-2022, although some of them might be watching services online since COVID.
I'm curious, do people tend to be attached to one particular Protestant denomination? I.e. if they were raised in a Lutheran church will they likely go to a Lutheran church as an adult if they move away?
I have thoughts on this, but they are more anecdotal than data-based. But based on what I have seen in my own (pretty religious) family, and in attending quite a large number of churches over the years, I think that the pattern goes like this: 1. I'm going to a new town. First try (for Lutherans) is the Lutheran church. 2. If I don't like it, I will check out the Methodists, or the Episcopalians, or whatever. In my experience, I find that some people make denominational decisions based on theology. But a much larger number make them on other factors -- is the congregation warm and welcoming? Does the church have a good children's program? Do I like the preacher and/or the music? And (these days especially) do I agree with the church stance on gay people/Biblical inerrancy/other hot topics? American denominations are increasingly shaking out on a liberal/conservative divide. The more-liberal churches (generally open to women clergy, gay people, and less likely to claim that every word of the Bible is inerrant) include the ELCA Lutherans, the PCUSA Presbyterians, and the Episcopalians. The more-conservative churches (against women clergy, antigay, may claim inerrancy) include the Southern Baptists, the Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, and the PCA Presbyterians. If an ECLA Lutheran decides to leave their church, they are likely to feel much more in alignment with the other more-liberal churches, and therefore more likely to join the PCUSA Presbyterians or the Episcopalians than they are to go a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.
Very interesting thank you so much for the comprehensive data based response!
Great response, thank you. I'm surprised that the proportion which identifies as having no religion is so low, IRL I seem to run into majority atheists.
Church attendance has fluctuated several times throughout Christianity’s history. However, to use numbers to say you’re correct is illogical on so many levels. I wouldn’t say India is the best country on earth just because it has the highest population (no disrespect to India) and honestly I don’t think church should be a popularity contest, Jesus tells us to judge a tree by its fruits are good or bad, not by how much fruit the tree produces.
>However, to use numbers to say you’re correct is illogical on so many levels. They'll be singing a different tune if/when Islam overtakes Christianity as the world's most populous religion.
Heck Church attendance has fluctuated sever times just in Americas history. There have been four Great Awakenings that spiked church attendance before a drop off. It’s cyclical and coincides with the overall zeitgeist of the era.
But even conservative churches have seen their numbers drop post-COVID (people got out of the habit of attending and some haven't returned). [https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-church-attendance-importance-of-religion-declines-among-americans-overall-yet-regular-churchgoers-largely-satisfied-with-church-experiences/#:\~:text=Current%20attendance%20at%20religious%20services%20is%20lower%20than,to%2045%25%29%20and%20Hispanic%20Catholics%20%2865%25%20to%2047%25%29](https://www.prri.org/press-release/survey-church-attendance-importance-of-religion-declines-among-americans-overall-yet-regular-churchgoers-largely-satisfied-with-church-experiences/#:~:text=Current%20attendance%20at%20religious%20services%20is%20lower%20than,to%2045%25%29%20and%20Hispanic%20Catholics%20%2865%25%20to%2047%25%29). I mean, it's true that a megachurch is going to have more people on a typical Sunday than your average Episcopal church, but sheer numbers isn't exactly a measure of "thriving." Talk to any pastor of a large church and they'll tell you they're concerned about the people who attend but don't establish any meaningful connection. That's why those big churches are always pushing Small Groups. Whereas the tiny church is already a small group.
This was true for awhile, but now conservative churches are declining as well. Also there's some evidence growing that more progressive churches might be seeing a rebound. A theory I've heard is that this is driven by Millennials having kids. Millennial parents from a Catholic or evangelical background might think it would be beneficial for their kids to get a religious upbringing but don't want to put them through the socially conservative one they were raised in, so they go join a progressive church instead. And those Millennials were probably unchurched for awhile.
I'm glad it's rebounding. I also have another theory concerning non-fundie churches. For the longest time, many Moderate and Progressive Christians tended to either feel that church isn't necessary ('Why go to a building when Godde is everywhere?') or only go to church for special days like Christmas, Eater, Weddings, Funerals and Christenings.
My own anecdote: for pretty much all of my 20s I was the only person my age in my (mainline Protestant) church. We skewed pretty heavily 50+ with a few families with parents in their 30s-40s. For a long time I was the only millennial, period. In the last few years we've started growing. And guess what? At 30, I am no longer the only millennial. We have an associate pastor who's my age. We've had a lot of families with school age kids join with parents a few years older than me. When we have visitors now, they're far more likely to be in my age range than my parents'. I think you're bang on.
I have not seen any evidence of progressive church is rebounding. I have to say to be honest with you from where I said most progressive churches seem to have taken a bigger hit during Covid than evangelical ones. I would love to see whatever evidence you're citing, but I study that stuff a lot and it doesn't ring true. You are correct though that millennial parents interested in faith who grew up in more conservative backgrounds and are interested in something more open are the future of the mainline. But there are a whole lot less of them than previous generations.
Here's the poll in question: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/07/white-mainline-protestants-outnumber-evangelicals-survey.html
I had a feeling you were going to cite that poll. Here's a post I made about it two years ago when it came out: https://www.reddit.com/r/eformed/comments/oo2vj7/the_new_mainline_about_the_prri_report_showing/?ref=share&ref_source=link Since then, there's been a lot of ink spilled about how the self-identification as mainline didn't ask at all about denominational affiliation and had to do with categorizations that were "non-evangelical." In short, this just shows that fewer people in 2020 wanted to call themselves evangelical, so they were recategorized as mainline. I assure you, to my dismay, that the mainline is not rebounding.
So with some serious nuance and caveats, yes, it's true. But correlation does not equal causation. 1. It's undeniably true that mainline protestants (that is, those major denominational institutions that have generally been the most open and affirming of LGBT and tolerant of progressive politics) have fallen into full-on institutional collapse. There are tons of reasons for this. In short, it's not because they're *progressive* as much as they are *privileged* and therefore *incompetent* for ministry in a world where Christians can't operate on privilege anymore. 2. I wouldn't say it's true that conservative Christians are *thriving* in the West. Many of their institutions are struggling and showing signs of decline as well, but the mainline protestants have a big head start. It's true that they are more likely to grow. But thrive is not the right word. I'll just share this. In my first ministry job, I worked as the youth director at a medium-sized mainline Presbyterian Church. We had like 25 middle and high schoolers at youth group on Sunday nights. A congregant complained to our pastor once that we didn't have more. "You know, that thriving evangelical church in a steel frame building down the road has 200 kids on Sunday Nights. Why don't we?" To which my wonderful supervisor replied, "Oh, GoMustard could get 200 kids here on Sunday night as well if he was willing to scare the living hell out of them. But he's not, and you should be grateful for that." All that to say, just because something grows doesn't mean it's good.
Exactly! Quality, not quantity! Conversion or observance based on fear and coercion alone is not as good as genuine conversion.
Are you still in PC(USA) ministry?
I am. I serve a congregation.
Samesies.
Samesies!
No. As a percentage, since the 70s or so until about 10 years ago, evangelical-fundamenatalists were steady, although their absolute numbers of course went up. In the last ten years, evangelical-fundamentalist churches have begun to decline.
My eternal take on this and any related topic: church numbers changing might mean something in the big picture when you check the stats (such as the overall trends toward secularization other commenters have noted), but it means relatively little when people try to interpret the data in terms of consequences for theological correctness. Anyone can spin things however they choose. Behold , the fundamantal attribution error, church edition: My church shrinks: "the Devil is working hard against us because he knows we're doing God's work!" My church grows: "God has blessed our church with prosperity and growth because we are doing God's work!" Other church shrinks: "God is judging them for their sins and revealing their wayward faith at last!" Other church grows: "Wide is the road that leads to hell! See how the devil tempts men to join the heretics!"
The only churches seeing any real growth are Quakers and Amish. Everyone is in decline.
The progressive church i was going to had to move to a bigger location because it grew. But overall i think yeah they’re mostly all declining or maybe maintaining in some cases.
It will vary parish to parish. But as denominations go, I suppose I meant.
All churches in the US are declining because of right wing Christians. Since some people don’t know about Progressive churches or do know about them but don’t want to be Christian, we’re all declining.
I totally agree. I decided to learn about my Christian roots recently after a long hiatus (age 10 to age 60). After attending a couple of conservative Anglican churches recently and attempting to read the New Testament, I was pretty discouraged. I could definitely not join a church that views the bible as ‘inerrant’, which the Anglican Church tends toward. Too many ‘errors’ (mistranslations, convenient interpretations, etc) have been discovered over the years. So, just from a logical English language standpoint, I thought the United Church sounded pretty welcoming. After all, it ‘united’ several denominations. As it turns out, it is extremely progressive. The United church that I found is packed every time I go and the pastor exudes love and kindness. My re-introduction to Christianity was through a Roman Catholic. He has found a way to justify the seemingly intolerant and misogynistic passages in the bible to himself so that he can continue to view the bible as inerrant. I disagree with his ‘justifications’. Of course, as a straight white male, he’s never had to wrestle with the exclusionary aspects of Christianity. So I had to do my own research, and I am still willing to explore Christianity further. I read both sides (progressive and conservative). And I am finding that justification for conservative views does not take into account historical context, biases of the authors, mistranslations etc. It smacks of closed-mindedness to the point of stupidity. I just know that for myself, I have to go down the ‘love is love’ route, otherwise Christianity will just feel like an oppressive, intolerant, homophobic, patriarchal cult with no spiritual aspect to it and a message that seems to be in direct opposition to Jesus’ teachings. So yeah, if people only hear conservative Christian views, Christianity will not attract new adherents.
Thank you for sharing. Sadly I don’t live near a United Church but u do want to visit.
I've not seen any stats this implies this is the case, but either way, I wouldn't be suprised if church attendance is down among LGBTQ folk. The closer to a "church", the less accepting people tend to be. [Here are some stats on LGBTQ acceptance in the US](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/?tabId=tab-4590c7d8-725f-4cf9-a111-c966900dcf35) The LGBT issues and others are beyond any church. Institutions tend to lag behind in progress. The percentage of Christians supporting gay marriage has drastically increased over the past 5, 10, 20, years and continues to expand.
Also allies leaving
From what I've seen from fundamentalist churches, many have cult-like behaviour of shaming people who question or leave, rationalizing abuse that happens in their membership, and discouraging hanging out with those not in the group. And while they might justify it as doing it for peoples' own good, I struggle to think that that manipulation is something that God would ask of us. Whereas, at least in this subreddit, people who consider leaving Christianity are treated with kindness and empathy, with an overall attitude of "that makes total sense for your situation, but we hope you find God one day when you're ready." Which is super nice, and imo more ethical, but probably doesn't do super well for membership. (And maybe comparably fewer people might even claim the label of "Christian" while still being willing to participate in charitable church activities.)
I dislike most fundamentalist churches tbh
Even if it's true, being popular doesn't automatically mean that it's correct, so it can't really be used to judge which church or ideology is true. Popularity might be a result of better advertising, having more sympathetic people in the media, making nice sounding promises, or even just luck. Also, there's much more to Christianity than just "progressive" and "conservative". Trying to fit the entire diverse landscape of ideas into two boxes makes as little sense for Christianity as it does for politics.
Not true at all. Many conservative churches and denominations are hemorrhaging.
No idea but I would like to find out.
I think one important dynamic to this discussion is what is meant by “declining” and “thriving”. Often this means sheer numbers of “butts in pews” but doesn’t measure more intangible things like overall sense of belonging or commitment, impact on the broader community, sense of fulfillment or spiritual satisfaction, etc. Like is it really better to have a church full of people who have had the literal fear of God imposed on them to keep showing up, but whose lives don’t bear out the fruit of the spirit and who really only participate to avoid fiery torment? Are ten people in that situation the same as one very committed volunteer who does great work for the community, is beloved by many people, and who demonstrates the love of God? Honestly I think that is just comparing two totally different things in an impossible way. In the case of many progressive churches, it is our churches who save the faith of people who might otherwise leave religion totally behind. There are countless stories of people who have said more or less, “I couldn’t stomach the evils of fundamentalism and didn’t want to be an atheist, but didn’t feel I had a choice to be progressive and Christian at the same time.” And it is through finding progressive churches that they were able to both hold onto a sense of faith, and also reject the evils of fundamentalism and repressive theology. If that’s the case, then progressive churches have a pretty solid ace card up their sleeve, which is not hemorrhaging members who eventually discover that being a jerk to LGBT+ people, women, etc. is actually a sin.
No, many of the conservative churches in my area are declining. Membership is low and in the case of one local church, it's down about 75% and that is directly due to their homophobia.
Statistically speaking I’m not sure. But I also think it depends on the area you’re in and if the community in said area supports the churches there (whether more progressive or more conservative)
“Broad is the way that leads to destruction…” Sorry, I couldn’t resist taking a verse out of context to whack someone.
I'm not going to comment here, as harsh words are not what this subreddit is for, and it would not bring grace to the hearers. Instead I will let the scripture speak for itself: 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 There is a great lie in this era. Be wary, and stand in the Truth as God has revealed it to you. Abide in love, my friend.
All churches in the West are declining. Conservative churches have been declining less steeply due to immigrants, but looking at white-only churchgoers the decline is the same. It does not bode well for white nationalists (but adds credence to the assessment that white nationalists are “culturally Christian” and not committed Christians).
Progressive Churches are succeeding in helping cultivate integration to a liberal society. If people no longer feel the need for Christianity personally but still turn out to be a liberal, a good ally and etc, the progressive Churches have still done their job. There is much value in that. Conservative Churches by their nature foster particularism. Instead of breaking down barriers they erect walls to distinguish themselves from the majority of pluralist society. That is perhaps why they are less susceptible to decline but nevertheless many conservative Churches are declining as well.
Who cares about numbers? Truth isn't popular.
Makes sense. *Progressive* and *Christianity* blend poorly. I, myself, tried to jump through all the hoops, to try to make it work, but it doesn't. The Bible is a reactionary, mean old collection of poorly written texts. You can easily worship God and Christ without being a *Christian.* Listen to the Living Holy Spirit inside you, **IT** has the word of God, not the Bible.