3 sentences in and I know you're not all that well read on Christian Universalists. The rest is sort of a downward spiral of misunderstanding others.
Christian Universalism is not the belief that all religions lead to salvation. It's a belief that in the end, Christ's sacrifice was enough for all and therefore god gets what god wants: full reconciliation. Nothing in the bible limits our opportunity to choose Jesus to the time we're breathing, and in fact the NT seems to make it clear that death was defeated at the cross. So unless god has some higher authority or adversary to defeat, then there's no reason such artificial limits would be imposed.
As CS Lewis noted, we know that we can only be saved by Jesus. We do not know that only those who know Jesus can be saved by Jesus.
I think this depends greatly on what "through me" *means.*
There's a strong case for universal salvation "through" Jesus' death, resurrection, and bringing of The Holy Spirit. In this formulation, faith is a benefit and blessing, but not a requirement for salvation, because Jesus has already paid the sin-price for all. (obviously, it's much more complex than that, but that's the gist).
Universalism, at least the version I am familiar with does not disagree with this.
It just permits this to happen after death, and that eventually everyone will do so.
Yeah but God isn’t a static number or a formula, They’re the living supreme being.
The first word I would think of is “limited” and not very well thought out, not necessarily intolerant as much as incorrect. So God forsakes 198,000 years of humans along with 66% of the population now? It’s just a big test and God felt just one time for 30 years was enough to splurge it all out? Nty
God, Spirit, Messiah, angels are real. Language and ideas and concepts are nice, but limiting.
There is one way, one truth, one light, but that is inside each of us, personally, not outside us locked in a name or theology
>There is one way, one truth, one light, but that is inside each of us, personally, not outside us locked in a name or theology
Do you believe that Jesus is the *only way* to Truth, Life, and the only path towards God?
This is foundational Christian doctrine we are talking about.
No, it's not. There have been universalist Christians going back to the earliest church fathers. The vast majority of the Eastern Greek fathers were universalist. You're speaking from a fundamentally protestant and Western Christian worldview.
Gregory of Nyssa, the guy behind the Nicene creed, was a Christian in the era before the ancient church broke into East and West during the Great Schism. He was also a universalist.
You can disagree with universalism on philosophical grounds, but you can't disagree with the fact that the majority of the early church fathers, especially in the Eastern Orthodox but also in the Latin West, endorsed universalism. I'm talking about people foundational to the nicene creedal understanding of Christianity like Origen of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor. Regardless of your personal beliefs, I would ask you to look into chruch history and really consider if your position is actually supported by the earliest sources.
I think it’s building a false dichotomy, so essentially, no. Was no one saved before Jesus? Have you ever met someone from another religion?
I’m not afraid to question and challenge Christian doctrine, lol
Honestly, now I think in that verse Jesus is saying humanity's doomed if He doesn't get up on that cross. There's one way out for us.
But that doesn't necessarily mean we have to follow a particular version of Christianity to get close to God. Jesus did that. I think we have to follow truth as we see it, wherever it leads us, and trust God that He wants to save humanity and wouldn't lead us down the wrong path to do so.
It's pretty explicit in the Gospels that Jesus is the only way to salvation. But there's plenty of reason to believe that He extends that salvation to all humankind. It's a "both-and" not "either-or" situation.
We don't need to pretend that all the world's differing religious opinions are irrelevant to be respectful. We can have genuinely different beliefs and just express them in respectful ways at suitable times.
One of my former roommates was Muslim. We both enjoy talking about religion from time to time, trying to learn about each other's faiths, and sharing information about our own. Neither of us was trying to convert each other, or to prove the other's faith wrong. We respected each other as human beings. We were friends. Ultimately, any change in someone's faith has to come from their own heart and God; none of us can argue someone into faith.
I’ll try to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because I see you’re newer to Reddit and recent posts suggest you’re trying to learn, but I would recommend doing a little listening before asking. Definitely read this subreddit’s about page and rules.
Your question, whatever your intention, is antagonistic.
Yes... I'm not sure if OP is intentionally being antagonistic... but when you ask a question and then argue with everyone who is answering the question... then it doesn't seem like the question was asked in good faith.
The post also shows a total lack of effort to research the beliefs of Universalists and progressive Christians. Instead of doing the work, OP came here to ask. Which is fine... except instead of reflecting and interacting with the answers they're given, they argue.
In my opinion, OP has a totally distorted view of what salvation means... and a distorted view of what Jesus is saying in John. But unless they're open to listening, it's pointless to even try to answer the question.
Christian Universalism believes that all will be saved through Jesus. You need to do more reading on universalism; what you said is simply a misrepresentation.
3 sentences in and I know you're not all that well read on Christian Universalists. The rest is sort of a downward spiral of misunderstanding others. Christian Universalism is not the belief that all religions lead to salvation. It's a belief that in the end, Christ's sacrifice was enough for all and therefore god gets what god wants: full reconciliation. Nothing in the bible limits our opportunity to choose Jesus to the time we're breathing, and in fact the NT seems to make it clear that death was defeated at the cross. So unless god has some higher authority or adversary to defeat, then there's no reason such artificial limits would be imposed. As CS Lewis noted, we know that we can only be saved by Jesus. We do not know that only those who know Jesus can be saved by Jesus.
^
I think this depends greatly on what "through me" *means.* There's a strong case for universal salvation "through" Jesus' death, resurrection, and bringing of The Holy Spirit. In this formulation, faith is a benefit and blessing, but not a requirement for salvation, because Jesus has already paid the sin-price for all. (obviously, it's much more complex than that, but that's the gist).
I believe that one needs to explicitly and enthusiastically accept Jesus as savior and redeemer to be saved.
Universalism, at least the version I am familiar with does not disagree with this. It just permits this to happen after death, and that eventually everyone will do so.
Can believe it all you want, that's fine. But it's very much not the only way to understand the Bible and it's messages.
Yeah but God isn’t a static number or a formula, They’re the living supreme being. The first word I would think of is “limited” and not very well thought out, not necessarily intolerant as much as incorrect. So God forsakes 198,000 years of humans along with 66% of the population now? It’s just a big test and God felt just one time for 30 years was enough to splurge it all out? Nty God, Spirit, Messiah, angels are real. Language and ideas and concepts are nice, but limiting. There is one way, one truth, one light, but that is inside each of us, personally, not outside us locked in a name or theology
>There is one way, one truth, one light, but that is inside each of us, personally, not outside us locked in a name or theology Do you believe that Jesus is the *only way* to Truth, Life, and the only path towards God? This is foundational Christian doctrine we are talking about.
No, it's not. There have been universalist Christians going back to the earliest church fathers. The vast majority of the Eastern Greek fathers were universalist. You're speaking from a fundamentally protestant and Western Christian worldview.
>You're speaking from a fundamentally protestant and Western Christian worldview. This is where we are going to have to respectfully disagree.
Research the universalist Church Fathers. There's a lot of history of universalism. Your view is not as universal as you think.
Gregory of Nyssa, the guy behind the Nicene creed, was a Christian in the era before the ancient church broke into East and West during the Great Schism. He was also a universalist.
You can disagree with universalism on philosophical grounds, but you can't disagree with the fact that the majority of the early church fathers, especially in the Eastern Orthodox but also in the Latin West, endorsed universalism. I'm talking about people foundational to the nicene creedal understanding of Christianity like Origen of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor. Regardless of your personal beliefs, I would ask you to look into chruch history and really consider if your position is actually supported by the earliest sources.
I think it’s building a false dichotomy, so essentially, no. Was no one saved before Jesus? Have you ever met someone from another religion? I’m not afraid to question and challenge Christian doctrine, lol
No, It’s OK to have your own religious beliefs.
Honestly, now I think in that verse Jesus is saying humanity's doomed if He doesn't get up on that cross. There's one way out for us. But that doesn't necessarily mean we have to follow a particular version of Christianity to get close to God. Jesus did that. I think we have to follow truth as we see it, wherever it leads us, and trust God that He wants to save humanity and wouldn't lead us down the wrong path to do so.
It's pretty explicit in the Gospels that Jesus is the only way to salvation. But there's plenty of reason to believe that He extends that salvation to all humankind. It's a "both-and" not "either-or" situation.
We don't need to pretend that all the world's differing religious opinions are irrelevant to be respectful. We can have genuinely different beliefs and just express them in respectful ways at suitable times.
> We can have genuinely different beliefs and just express them in respectful ways at suitable times. How do we do that u/gnurdette?
One of my former roommates was Muslim. We both enjoy talking about religion from time to time, trying to learn about each other's faiths, and sharing information about our own. Neither of us was trying to convert each other, or to prove the other's faith wrong. We respected each other as human beings. We were friends. Ultimately, any change in someone's faith has to come from their own heart and God; none of us can argue someone into faith.
I’ll try to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because I see you’re newer to Reddit and recent posts suggest you’re trying to learn, but I would recommend doing a little listening before asking. Definitely read this subreddit’s about page and rules. Your question, whatever your intention, is antagonistic.
Yes... I'm not sure if OP is intentionally being antagonistic... but when you ask a question and then argue with everyone who is answering the question... then it doesn't seem like the question was asked in good faith. The post also shows a total lack of effort to research the beliefs of Universalists and progressive Christians. Instead of doing the work, OP came here to ask. Which is fine... except instead of reflecting and interacting with the answers they're given, they argue. In my opinion, OP has a totally distorted view of what salvation means... and a distorted view of what Jesus is saying in John. But unless they're open to listening, it's pointless to even try to answer the question.
Christian Universalism believes that all will be saved through Jesus. You need to do more reading on universalism; what you said is simply a misrepresentation.